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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    did you know Black ops had dropped in on Noah's Ark to recover objects from inside, it is sitting 13,500 feet high in Kurdistan...

    we have the video here on Avalon somewhere...

    close is what they call the Garden of Eden, on the edge of Armenia, also the oldest Christian Church that is still standing on the side of the lake.


    of course the dog saw what was happening, can't spell dog without G O D...

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    United States Avalon Member kreagle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    Quote Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
    did you know Black ops had dropped in on Noah's Ark to recover objects from inside, it is sitting 13,500 feet high in Kurdistan...

    we have the video here on Avalon somewhere...

    close is what they call the Garden of Eden, on the edge of Armenia, also the oldest Christian Church that is still standing on the side of the lake.


    of course the dog saw what was happening, can't spell dog without G O D...

    Hey Rocky_Shorz,


    Here is a link to a story,....along with pictures, and video link to what you are probably referring to. If anyone can produce anything additional, I would like to see it, as I am sure others would, also.


    link:http://www.wnd.com/2010/04/146369/



    Is this a beam from Noah’s Ark? Explorers with Noah’s Ark Ministries International have released this photo of a wooden structure it says it has documented at an altitude of 13,000 feet on Mount Ararat in Turkey.

    Quote “It’s not 100 percent that it is Noah’s Ark but we think it is 99.9 percent that this is it,” Yeung Wing-cheung, a Hong Kong documentary filmmaker and member of the 15-person team from Noah’s Ark Ministries International, told Agence France-Presse.

    The team says it recovered wooden specimens from a structure on Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey at an altitude of 13,000 feet and that carbon dating suggested it was 4,800 years old.

    Several compartments, some with wooden beams, are said to be inside and could have been used to house animals, the group indicated.

    Yes, Noah’s Ark is completely real! Now find out “what you don’t Noah” about the story as well as your spectacular destiny they rarely ever mention in church in this autographed No. 1 best-seller!

    Another NAMI explorer, Yuen Manfai, said at the Hong Kong news conference: “The search team and I personally entered a wooden structure high on the mountain. The structure is partitioned into different spaces. We believe that the wooden structure we entered is the same structure recorded in historical accounts and the same ancient boat indicated by the locals.”

    In this photo from Noah’s Ark Ministries International, an explorer is investigating a wooden structure on Mount Ararat in Turkey that may be the remnant of Noah’s Ark mentioned in the Bible

    Quote The group of archaeologists ruled out an established human settlement, explaining one had never been found above 11,500 feet in the vicinity.

    “The search team has made the greatest discovery in history,” said Prof. Oktay Belli, an archaeologist at Istanbul University. “This finding is very important and the greatest up to now.”

    The structure reportedly found on Mount Ararat is surrounded by rock and ice (courtesy: Noah’s Ark Ministries International).

    Quote Ahmet Ertugrul, leader of the search team, was first to get information on the location before commencing the hunt.

    “I got to know the secret location in June 2008,” he said. “The source told me that this is Noah’s Ark. I took a team there for the search around the region and found a wooden structure. I took some photographs of the interior structure. Since I have worked closely with NAMI for some years, I informed them of the discovery.”

    Some video of the find has already been posted on YouTube and can be seen here:


    Quote The team also said local officials would ask the national government in Ankara to apply for United Nations World Heritage status so the site can be protected during an archaeological dig.

    As WND has reported, after centuries of scouring the Earth for Noah’s Ark, numerous claims have been flooding in
    over the past few years regarding possible discoveries of the Old Testament ship.

    In June 2006, a 14-man crew that included evangelical apologist Josh McDowell said it
    returned from a trek to a mountain in Iran with possible evidence of the ark’s remains.

    The group, led by explorer Bob Cornuke, found an unusual object perched on a
    slope 13,120 feet above sea level.

    They said some of the wood-like rocks they tested proved to be petrified
    wood.


    Meanwhile, another ark hunter is the late Edward Crawford, a former draftsman illustrator for the U.S. military who taught Christian theology at Evergreen Bible Presbyterian Church in the Seattle area.

    Crawford made numerous climbs up Ararat
    and said in 1990, he discovered a large, rectangular structure buried in the ice
    at an elevation of 14,765 feet.

    “I don’t have any doubt about it at all, and
    the Turks don’t either,” he told WND.

    He said the structure sits under snow
    and ice, which he called “ridiculously hard stuff.”

    Crawford put much of his discovery online
    at a website called Project von Bora, where photographs and
    diagrams are available, and he believed the structure has 90-degree angles.

    Edward Crawford believed a rectangular Noah’s Ark
    lies at this location on Mount Ararat (courtesy Edward Crawford).

    Quote “Those don’t happen in nature,” he said. “If
    you think someone went up there to build that, it would take a greater miracle
    than the Flood [of Noah] itself.”

    Not far from Crawford’s “structure” on Mount
    Ararat is something which made headlines in March 2006 with the release
    of a new, high-resolution digital image of what has become known as the “Ararat
    Anomaly.”

    Satellite image of ‘Ararat Anomaly,’ taken by DigitalGlobe’s
    QuickBird Satellite in 2003 (courtesy: DigitalGlobe).

    Quote The location of the anomaly on the mountain’s
    northwest corner has been under investigation from afar by ark hunters for
    years, but it has remained unexplored, with the government of Turkey not
    granting any scientific expedition permission to explore on-site.

    “I’ve got newfound optimism … as far as my
    continuing push to have the intelligence community declassify some of the more
    definitive-type imagery,” Porcher Taylor, an associate professor in paralegal
    studies at the University of Richmond, said at the time.

    For more than three decades, Taylor has been a
    national security analyst, and has also served as a senior associate for five
    years at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington,
    D.C.

    “I had no preconceived notions or agendas when
    I began this in 1993 as to what I was looking for,” he said. “I maintain that if
    it is the remains of something man-made and potentially nautical, then it’s
    potentially something of biblical proportions.”

    The anomaly remains ensconced in glacial ice at
    an altitude of 15,300 feet, and Taylor says the photos suggest its
    length-to-width ratio is close to 6:1, as indicated in the Book of Genesis.

    The mountains of Ararat

    Some 15 miles from Mount Ararat is perhaps the
    most well-known candidate vying for the title of Noah’s Ark.

    Many believe this is Noah’s Ark, already found on
    a mountain next to Mt. Ararat (courtesy: wyattmuseum.com).

    Quote A boat-shaped object thought by many to be the
    fossilized remnants of the the vessel sits in Dogubayazit, Turkey, and was first
    photographed in 1959 by a Turkish air-force pilot on a NATO mapping mission.

    It gained worldwide attention after its photo
    was published in a 1960 issue of Life Magazine.

    The man most responsible for promoting this
    location as the ark’s actual resting place from the Bible was Ron Wyatt, who
    died of cancer in 1999 after years of searching for biblical antiquities, who also claimed to have found the remains of Pharaoh’s chariots that chased Moses
    through the Red Sea and the “true” location of Mount Sinai in Arabia.

    In 2004, Wyatt’s widow, Mary Nell Wyatt Lee,
    published a history of the discovery in a book titled, “The Boat-Shaped Object
    on Doomsday Mountain.”

    She writes that on Dec. 12, 1987, “it was the
    official decision of members of [Turkey's] Ministry of Foreign Affairs, of
    Internal Affairs, and researchers from Ataturk University, among others, that
    the boat-shaped formation did indeed contain the remains of Noah’s Ark!”

    An Associated Press story from that month
    read:

    NASHVILLE, Tenn. — A group of Turkish
    researchers has decided that a boat-shaped formation found in 1977 on a hill in
    eastern Turkey is the remains of Noah’s Ark, a Turkish tourism official
    says.

    Mary Nell’s Cornersville, Tenn.-based
    foundation, Wyatt Archaeological Research, is filled with on-location photographs and charts promoting its case with
    physical evidence including radar scans of bulkheads on the alleged vessel, deck timber and iron rivets and large “drogue” stones, which are thought to have acted as types of
    anchors.


    However, there’s been no shortage of critics
    from both scientific and Christian circles who think the Dogubayazit site is
    erroneous.

    Lorence Collins, a retired geology professor
    from California State University, Northridge, joined the late David Fasold, a
    one-time proponent of the Wyatt site, in writing a scientific summary claiming the location is
    “bogus.”

    “Evidence from microscopic studies and photo
    analyses demonstrates that the supposed Ark near Dogubayazit is a completely
    natural rock formation,” said the 1996 paper published in the Journal of
    Geoscience Education. “It cannot have been Noah’s Ark nor even a man-made model.
    It is understandable why early investigators falsely identified it.”

    In both the Old and New Testaments, the Bible speaks of Noah and the ark, and
    Jesus Christ and the apostles Paul and Peter all make reference to Noah’s flood
    as an actual historical event.

    According to Genesis, Noah was a righteous man who was instructed by God to
    construct a large vessel to hold his family and many species of animals, as a
    massive deluge was coming to purify the world which had become corrupt.

    Genesis 6:5 states: “And God saw that the wickedness of man
    was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart
    was only evil continually.”

    Noah was told by God to take aboard seven pairs of each of the “clean”
    animals – that is to say, those permissible to eat – and two each of the
    “unclean” variety (Genesis 7:2).

    Though the Bible says it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, it also mentions
    “the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days.”

    Genesis 8:4 does not say the ark rested on “Mount Ararat,” but rather the “mountains of Ararat,” and it was still months
    before Noah and his family – his wife, his three sons and the sons’ wives – were
    able to leave the ark and begin replenishing the world.

    Note: Media wishing to interview Joe Kovacs, please contact him.
    As always,.....your friend, brother, and servant,.......kreagle
    ***Death***************Burial***************Resurrection***



    Quote 1 John 2:6 (KJV)

    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    ( Obedience to Acts 2:38 enables us to 'spiritually' walk down our own personal pathway to Calvary with our own personal Cross!)

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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    there were a bunch of threads on it in the old forum, this was a clip of Bob Dean's interview... pardon the French...

    Noah's Ark

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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    Quote Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
    there were a bunch of threads on it in the old forum, this was a clip of Bob Dean's interview... pardon the French...

    Noah's Ark

    Yeah,......that was some pretty 'graphic French', brother!

    Nevertheless, thanks for the link!


    God Bless!,.......kreagle
    ***Death***************Burial***************Resurrection***



    Quote 1 John 2:6 (KJV)

    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    ( Obedience to Acts 2:38 enables us to 'spiritually' walk down our own personal pathway to Calvary with our own personal Cross!)

  6. Link to Post #125
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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    LOL u r quite the character! Youve dissected my post to what you THINK i was expressing...interesting! OK lets play the logical tit for tat game shall we.....


    Quote christinedream7,


    You need to understand that I, in no way, have taken your words to have disrespected 'me' ! I don't matter,.....only Him,...Jesus Christ! It's the part that's between your 'opening line',......"Oh lordy hell,........................and....................Whew! OK Got tht off my chest hehehehe.",....that is the disrespectful part, my friend. Either you didn't read the OP,...or the link by Kristin,....or the link by Dennis Leahy,.....or perhaps you simply don't understand, or are indifferent.

    I believe in your opening post you wanted to discuss 'different' thoughts ideas about the bible...you wanted to discuss it with others, i chose to give MY THOUGHTS on the bible

    like i stated earlier..'oh lordy hell' and 'Whew got tht off my chest' and 'hehehhehe' YES are EMOTIONS! (not directed at you or any other poster)....

    Oh lordy hell comes from a long history in my past with EXPERIENCES with religion and the church my parents happen to belong to growing up. This church was strict..i dont feel like going into details but suffice to say they proclaimed to be the ONLY church to be saved (part of the 144 million to make it in the end of the world AND the bible was discussed and all scriptures dissected into what they thought would FIT into their ideology and our path to salvation.

    Got tht off my chest was exactly that i wanted to express this emotion that is layered in much more of the iceberg then you can see that is my life experiences and observations



    The hehehehe was a exhale of RELEASE--not laughing at anyone in particular just the thoughts and memories of it all!


    Between your 'opening remark,.............and your hehehehe', you state the following.......
    Quote the previous posts that go round and round in their dissection of phrases to the bloody end is what happens with this book! It is words written in a book that appear jumbled up and misplaced. Each scripture sentence word syllable analyzed and interpreted into a tower of babble
    I'm simply going to point out that.....

    1) This was your 'first post' on this thread,.....(not a good way to begin, my friend!)

    It was an honest expression of how i view the bible and if you were honest with yourself and have been studying this book for any amount of time you would agree YES scripture is analyzed and interpreted to mean a MYRIAD of things

    2) You express complete disdain for the 'previous posts'......

    This is YOUR PERSPECTIVE, i have no disdain for the previous posts

    3) ......and systematically categorize it as....'interpreted into a tower of babble'

    Why Yes YES it is interpreted in a tower of babble as many come up with 'different' meanings to one sentence, line, word

    4) Your 'middle sentence' is the most damaging of all,......"It is words written in a book that appear jumbled up and misplaced." ( Question: Do you really 'feel this way' about God's Word? Don't you understand how 'disrespectful' this is to Him, and His Word?)


    LOL really the most damaging? Why Yes the sentences and words DO appear out of place...ive read the bible front and back and as you read you will SEE it all of a sudden changes course mid sentence into another subject, meaning??

    5) Finally you end your statement, (mind you, your '1st post here!'),....with a very childish statement, ''Whew! OK Got tht off my chest hehehehe."

    Explained above


    Now,.....do you still want to 'proclaim your complete innocence', here?

    Never said i was innocent Please do not put words into my mouth

    Is 'this' your 'standard general approach you use when you don't like something'?

    Don't you think you've been a 'little out of line, here?'

    No, No i do not



    ( For 'those who will listen',......"I have a plea from my heart!"......)

    christinedream7,.....and 'everyone else',.....

    I have a great desire and 'calling from God' to share some 'special things' with 'any and all' who would like to 'enrich and improve' your 'personal walk and relationship with God!' I can't imagine ANYONE turning an opportunity like that down, that's if their heart is honest in God! I've already stated,...back on page 4 of this thread, Post #68,....that 'kreagle doesn't know everything!' If any of you have gotten that impression,.....boy are you wrong! I am still learning,....and will be 'still learning',......all the way to the grave, or the 'rapture of His Church', whichever comes first! Guess what?,.....I am learning from you, too!

    I 'implore each and everyone of you',....to be patient, and to allow the 'operation of the Spirit, the Holy Ghost, to continue to work within this 'thread' so that we can 'all achieve the desired results' that I spoke about above. I am sure that there have been things presented, here, that many of you don't completely understand,.....and that's to be expected. I will make a solemn promise to 'everyone' that I will prayerfully endeavor to 'break things down' as much as possible, so that everyone can prosper in this thread!

    If a question arises that one doesn't understand,....let's discuss it,...however you may like. It may be conducive for us to discuss it via a PM, etc. I only ask 'everyone',....from this point on to be respectful,...in this order:,...1) To Him, Lord Jesus,.....2) His Word, the Bible,.....3) and finally to 'each other' !!! Anything less, is completely 'out of order' and totally non-Biblical. If we can commit to 'these simple rules',...we will prosper!

    We must 'continue in harmony',.....that's the least God expects from you and I!!!

    YES lets discuss and not assume what others are thinking...ask before you presume my meanings....and HARMONY IS THE CONNECTION within all instruments if someone is beating to a different drum it adds to the ensemble of the whole. Now ive said my peace i wont tit for tat anymore

    A 'previous post of mine'.....link:https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post546115
    Last edited by CD7; 7th September 2012 at 22:25.
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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    christinedream7,

    Since you've come to this thread you've expressed a great deal of hostility and critical thinking towards religion/Christianity as a whole. With your latest comment I am beginning to see the reason why........

    Quote Oh lordy hell comes from a long history in my past with EXPERIENCES with religion and the church my parents happen to belong to growing up. This church was strict..i dont feel like going into details but suffice to say they proclaimed to be the ONLY church to be saved (part of the 144 million to make it in the end of the world AND the bible was discussed and all scriptures dissected into what they thought would FIT into their ideology and our path to salvation.

    Got tht off my chest was exactly that i wanted to express this emotion that is layered in much more of the iceberg then you can see that is my life experiences and observations


    The hehehehe was a exhale of RELEASE--not laughing at anyone in particular just the thoughts and memories of it all!
    What you need to understand, christinedream7, is that holding on to the 'critical views and hostility' that you currently have ingrained into your heart and soul is not going to benefit you in any way,....and will one day completely destroy you if you don't wise up and do something about it. I, obviously, don't know anything about your parents, or your upbringing, but it's certainly clear that you harbor some very deep-seated negative emotional feelings towards them in relationship to religion/church/Christianity.

    I'm going to suggest something to you that may appear to be crazy to you on the 'surface' but has huge implications 'down deep inside!'

    Have you ever considered,.......'Forgiving your parents?'

    I'm sure that this may seem to be the 'furthest thing from your mind' as you originally view this suggestion, my dear friend,.....but let me implore you to take God to task and apply this wonderful concept called,.....'forgiveness!'

    If you will really,......think about it,......pray about it,......and then 'totally forgive them from your heart',.....you will find that a huge burden will suddenly be lifted from your soul and you will then be able to move on in a more positive way in your life!

    christinedream7, what ever you do, don't allow this awful burden of your past weigh you down for the rest of your life. If you do you will find yourself becoming more, and more cynical, pessimistic, and completely unfulfilled in life.Now, you can be sure that there is a huge crowd of individuals that will listen to your 'current views and stances' and pat you on the back. There certainly is no shortage of people whose views are cynical, pessimistic, and opposed to religion/church/Christianity.

    I will tell you, though, that it will take a 'hard hearted' person to be like this,....and something down deep inside tells me that you've really got a 'good and soft heart',.....just waiting to come out and reveal itself! You've gone on to relate your life as the 'proverbial iceberg'. To that I completely agree. So far, on this thread, you've shown us the 'hurt-side' of christinedream7 that is 'sticking out of the water' for us all to see. If you'll take my advice, my dear friend, and follow His advice,.....'to forgive from your heart',......not only will we all begin to see that you have effectively dealt with the 'hurt-side' on the surface of your life,.....but we will all begin to see the 'real you',....that 'majority' which is just below the surface. It's there, dear,.....we just haven't seen it, yet. Only you can really bring it to the surface combined with God's glorious help!

    Let God talk to you, my dear, dear, friend,........


    Luke 6:36-38
    King James Version (KJV)

    36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

    37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

    38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.



    Best wishes, and God Bless you,.........kreagle
    ***Death***************Burial***************Resurrection***



    Quote 1 John 2:6 (KJV)

    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    ( Obedience to Acts 2:38 enables us to 'spiritually' walk down our own personal pathway to Calvary with our own personal Cross!)

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  9. Link to Post #127
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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    I always point people to watch Joel when they think all of Christianity is harsh...

    the nice thing about a million churches is there are always others if you don't like the one you are in.

    Spirituality is your connection to God, Religion is a gathering of like believers, who are there more for the friendship than the message...

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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    Hello Kreagle and Christine Dream,

    Obviously not everyone has the same belief system. Though I personally have not found any posts to be overtly hostile in any way, it is important that the opinions of others are respected on all levels... Christine has every right to have an opinion that differs from yours Kreagle, as you have every right to have an opinion that differs from hers. Can we agree to disagree? The title of this thread is: Bible Topics and Questions, this suggests that if anyone has a question about a Biblical topic, and wishes to express it then the door is open to do so. Perhaps leaving emotions at the door is best when trying to have a discussion. I'm not sure that this is the intention of this thread, however, it is clear from the OP that this door is open to such an emotional discussion.

    The OP states: Let's discuss any "issues you've had" over "TRUST" and what you've been personally exposed to. I think it would really help us all in our "overall race", my friends.

    That being said... it is important that it will be understood that not everyone who comes here is looking to be "converted" to Christianity, and that people are allowed to state their "feelings" as well as why they have come to their own conclusions. From the OP it is important to understand that since this conversation was suggested... it should also be allowed. Kreagle, my question to you is that since you have opened this door are you willing to proceed or do you want to change the stated intention of the OP?

    Clarity is the best corse here. Kreagle, this is your thread... however, you have given an invitation for such a conversation and that invitation was accepted. Do you wish to continue or would you like to create something different then the OP states? That is also fine, however, clarity and respect for all will allow for things to flow here. Thanks for listening.

    From the Heart,
    Kristin

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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    Quote Posted by Kristin (here)
    Hello Kreagle and Christine Dream,

    Obviously not everyone has the same belief system. Though I personally have not found any posts to be overtly hostile in any way, it is important that the opinions of others are respected on all levels... Christine has every right to have an opinion that differs from yours Kreagle, as you have every right to have an opinion that differs from hers. Can we agree to disagree? The title of this thread is: Bible Topics and Questions, this suggests that if anyone has a question about a Biblical topic, and wishes to express it then the door is open to do so. Perhaps leaving emotions at the door is best when trying to have a discussion. I'm not sure that this is the intention of this thread, however, it is clear from the OP that this door is open to such an emotional discussion.

    The OP states: Let's discuss any "issues you've had" over "TRUST" and what you've been personally exposed to. I think it would really help us all in our "overall race", my friends.

    That being said... it is important that it will be understood that not everyone who comes here is looking to be "converted" to Christianity, and that people are allowed to state their "feelings" as well as why they have come to their own conclusions. From the OP it is important to understand that since this conversation was suggested... it should also be allowed. Kreagle, my question to you is that since you have opened this door are you willing to proceed or do you want to change the stated intention of the OP?

    Clarity is the best corse here. Kreagle, this is your thread... however, you have given an invitation for such a conversation and that invitation was accepted. Do you wish to continue or would you like to create something different then the OP states? That is also fine, however, clarity and respect for all will allow for things to flow here. Thanks for listening.

    From the Heart,
    Kristin

    Kristin,

    Thanks for your timely and thoughtful reply. There is absolutely no reason to alter what has already been started here, in that you are, indeed, correct in your assessment of the OP. I don't know how I could have been any clearer in my intentions for this thread than what I have stated. christinedream7 has indeed been 'on topic' with her response and view on 'TRUST', or the lack of it. However it was only after the latest reply by christinedream7 that I was able to understand her feelings that led her to respond in the way she originally did, and also now.

    It is my 'natural response' to be concerned for anyone who is having great difficulty over any issue, as christinedream7 has clearly indicated that she is having. Perhaps if I'm guilty of anything here, is that I did not specify in the OP that not only was this a place for,.....'Bible Topics and Questions',......but that it would also be a place for some 'Answers' to those questions, also. Some of those answers to come perhaps from 'me', as God would direct me,.....and also answers from the many valued Avalon participators, here.

    In order to be able to assist anyone you must be able to see if they are even 'listening to begin with',....or otherwise any answers of help you are endeavoring to give them will fall on 'deaf ears!' It was christinedream7's original line in her post that clearly told me she wasn't listening,.......

    Quote Oh lordy hell....................................the previous posts that go round and round in their dissection of phrases to the bloody end is what happens with this book!
    If christinedream7, whose post there was #91, had not listened or respected any of the 'previous 90 posts' as she said, here, then I was certainly concerned for any 'future posts', likewise.

    My only desire is to 'help and assist',....not to 'debate and quarrel'.

    My latest response to christinedream7, post #126 above, was from the depths of my heart, and I sincerely hope and pray that she takes it that way. The advice that I gave to her comes from the very 'heart of God',....in the form of 'forgiveness'. This is the very nature and heartbeat of God,...and that's to 'forgive'.

    In her own words, christinedream7 compares her past like the 'proverbial iceberg' , to which I completely agree. I am totally convinced that 'just below the surface' where the 'majority' resides, is a very beautiful and caring individual. She just really needs to deal with the 'hurt-side' that is so prevalent above the 'troubled waters of her life, right now!'

    Once again, thanks for your help, Kristin!


    Sincerely, and God Bless,.......kreagle


    *******post updated for special thought********


    "christinedream7,.......God loves you, dearly,....and so do I,......and don't you ever forget it, either!"

    your brother,......kreagle
    Last edited by kreagle; 8th September 2012 at 21:14. Reason: added thought
    ***Death***************Burial***************Resurrection***



    Quote 1 John 2:6 (KJV)

    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    ( Obedience to Acts 2:38 enables us to 'spiritually' walk down our own personal pathway to Calvary with our own personal Cross!)

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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    from http://www.oshoteachings.com/osho-on...ous-tolerance/

    Question : Osho why can’t i tolerate people who belong to other religions?

    Osho : Maria, IT IS BECAUSE OF YOUR UPBRINGING. You have been brought up as a fascist, as a fanatic — as Christians, Hindus, Jainas, Mohammedans; you have not been brought up as human beings. You are hypnotized from your very childhood; you are living in a kind of hypnosis. To live as a Christian or as a Mohammedan is to live in a hypnosis, is not to live really.

    That’s why you cannot tolerate people who belong to other religions, because deep down you know they are wrong, they are stupid, they are committing a great crime. They have to be put right, they have to be brought under your flag, into your flock — because only Jesus saves or only Buddha saves. You cannot tolerate them because they look like pretenders.

    To a Christian, a Buddhist is a pretender, because God has only one son. It is very strange — why should God have only one son? Is he in favor of birth control? But Jesus is the only-begotten son of God, and the Buddhists claim that Buddha has arrived, that he has attained. It becomes intolerable, the very idea. It creates suspicion in you, it creates doubt. Maybe the Buddhists are right, and you don t want to see this doubt inside yourself, because doubt is heavy and doubt disturbs your peace and doubt disturbs your sleep.

    Hence you would not like to read the Buddhist scriptures, you would not like to read the Koran, you would not like to read Mahavira, because their words can be dangerous. Or even if you read them you will read them as ordinary books, because there is only one holy book, the Bible, or only one holy book, the Koran. Your book is the only holy book and all other books are unholy.

    There are many things involved in this attitude, Maria. And this is not only your attitude: this is the attitude of the greater masses. It is good that you have become aware of it.

    [...]

    Secondly: a person belonging to a different religion hurts your ego; you would like your religion to be the suprememost, the only religion. It hurts your ego that there are other religions also claiming the same supremacy

    You have a double-bind mind: for yourself you think in one way, for others in a totally different way. If you claim your Bible as the holy book, you don’t allow Mohammedans to claim their book as the holy book. And the Mohammedans don’t allow the Hindus to call their Vedas the holy book. And the people who believe in the Vedas — the Hindus — they laugh at the nonsense of calling the Koran or the Bible holy books. The Vedas is the only holy book — because the Vedas are written by God himself; all other books are written by human beings. Maybe they contain something good, but written by human beings they are bound to be fallible — the Vedas are infallible. This is the way of the ego.

    [...]

    You apply double standards. For your own religion you have one valuation, for the others, different valuations. You don’t weigh on the same weighing machine. This is the way of the ego; it is always doing it in every dimension of life.

    And let me repeat again: each religion creates fascism in you. Each religion creates Adolph Hitlers because of this idea that “My way is the only right way.” And when you are a fascist and when you are a fanatic you are murderous. You may not murder, but deep down you are murderous. You may not murder anybody, but one thing is certain: you will murder your qualities of love and compassion and brotherhood.


    I don’t want you to be tolerant of other religions. Mahatma Gandhi used to teach people: “Be tolerant of other religions.” But if you become tolerant of other religions that simply means intolerance persists underground.

    I don’t teach tolerance; tolerance is ugly. It is better to be knowingly intolerant; at least the disease is on the surface and sooner or later you will become aware of it — as Maria has become aware of it. If you become tolerant, as Gandhians have become tolerant, then the disease goes deep into the unconscious. On the surface you are very polite, sweet, and you say good things, that the Bible and the Gita, they say the same thing: ALLAH ISHWAR TERE NAM SABKO SANMATI DE BHAGWAN — all are names of the same God, and let God give understanding to all.” You go on saying these things, but deep down it is not so.

    Mahatma Gandhi his whole life prayed morning and evening saying that Allah and Ram are the names of the same God. But when he was shot in Delhi…by a Poonaite, remember! Beware of the Poonaites! The man who murdered Gandhi, Nathuram Godse, was a Poonaite; Poona is one of the strongholds of Hindu orthodoxy. I have knowingly chosen a place to create trouble for you!

    When Gandhi was shot dead he didn’t say Allah. The last words were “Ram — Hey Ram! Oh Ram!” He forgot all about Allah. His whole life…but still deep down he knows that he is a Hindu. The Gita he says is his mother. And who is his father — the Koran? That he never says anything about. The Gita is his mother but the Koran is not his father. And he chooses words from the Koran which are really nothing but echoes of the Gita, and he also chooses words from the Bible which are echoes from the Gita. He is REALLY clinging to the Gita; the Gita is the criterion. Whatsoever is in the Gita is right; if it is in the Koran, then too it is right because it is in the Gita. He leaves out everything that goes against the Gita. This is tolerance….

    I don’t teach tolerance. I teach freedom from all the nonsense of being Hindu, Mohammedan, Christian. Be free from all prejudices. Be just a human being! And in that freedom you will find great joy, and in that freedom. for the first time you will feel love for other human beings, compassion, brotherhood. You will start feeling the whole universe as your family, your commune. And not only with human beings — when the fascist in you has disappeared and the fanatic is gone, even with the trees and the birds and the animals you will have a communion. You will be constantly in a beautiful dialogue with existence.

    Maria, drop all this nonsense. To be a Hindu, to be a Mohammedan, to be a Christian, to be a Jaina, to be a Buddhist, these are stupid hangovers from the past. Be finished with them, and in a single blow — not slowly, not gradually. See the point and be finished with them RIGHT now, this very moment! Because who knows? — tomorrow may come, may not come. Who knows? — the next moment may come, may not come. This is the only moment available. Rebel against all nonsense! Be free!

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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    Chris82,

    A very interesting read you have there, my friend.

    I think it would be safe to say that we all have a rather large plethora of 'belief systems' to choose from, don't we?

    With this in mind, I'm also reminded of a very somber warning that is given to us all out of Proverbs concerning the 'way we choose',......


    Proverbs 14:12
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.



    This passage plainly reveals that even with the 'best laid plans of mankind',.....the choice that one makes can easily lead to 'grave consequences' on our 'journey of choice',....doesn't it?

    Decisions of this magnitude certainly must be 'Divinely inspired and endorsed', my friend.

    I certainly can't begin to speak for all the 'others',....but I can say this much.

    God 'robed Himself in flesh',....became the sacrificial Lamb,....and endorsed the Christian faith/belief system with a 'crimson stream of blood!'

    That's what I call,......'Divinely inspired and endorsed!!!'


    And I have yet to hear of another god/deity who has done that for his followers!


    Your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle
    ***Death***************Burial***************Resurrection***



    Quote 1 John 2:6 (KJV)

    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    ( Obedience to Acts 2:38 enables us to 'spiritually' walk down our own personal pathway to Calvary with our own personal Cross!)

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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    Quote Posted by kreagle (here)
    I think it would be safe to say that we all have a rather large plethora of 'belief systems' to choose from, don't we?
    Or maybe the point made by that wise man was we all have a rather large plethora of 'belief systems' NOT to choose from ...


    Question : Osho, Jesus said that his sacrifice on the cross was for the salvation of the world from the sins of man. Please would you comment on this.
    Osho : Anand Geetam, THE FIRST THING TO BE UNDERSTOOD about a man like Jesus is that whatsoever the church that is bound to grow around such a man says about him, it is bound to be wrong. What the Christian church says about Christ cannot be true. In fact the Christian priest does not represent Christ at all. He is the same old rabbi in new garments, the same old rabbi who was responsible for Jesus murder. The Pope is not a different kind of person.

    It makes no difference whether it is a Jewish establishment or a Christian establishment or a Hindu establishment; all establishments function in the same way.

    Jesus is a rebel, just as Buddha is or Lao Tzu is. When the church starts establishing itself it starts destroying the rebelliousness of Jesus, Buddha, because rebellion cannot go with an establishment. It starts imposing its own ideas — once Jesus is gone it is very easy to impose your own ideas. It starts selecting what to keep in the Bible and what not to keep. Many things have been dropped, many things have not been included in it. For example, the Gospel of Thomas has not been included in the New Testament. It was just discovered a few years ago — and it is the MOST important gospel. The four gospels that have been included are nothing compared to it, but it is very rebellious.

    [...]

    I don’t know Jesus through Christian theology; I know him directly. And my knowing is that he cannot talk in terms of sacrifice — first thing, the very first. A man like Jesus does not talk in terms of sacrifice; it is celebration, not sacrifice. He is going to meet his God dancing, singing. It is not sacrifice; he is not a martyr. The Christian church tries to make him the greatest martyr, the greatest man who has sacrificed himself for the salvation of the world from the sins of man. In the first place it is not sacrifice — sacrifice looks business-like — it is celebration! Jesus is celebrating his life and his death.

    Secondly: nobody can solve the problems of others, nobody can be the salvation of the world. And you can see it: the world is still the same. Twenty centuries have passed and Christian priests go on talking nonsense, that he sacrificed himself for the salvation of the world. But where is the salvation of the world? Either he failed, he could not manage… that they cannot accept, that he failed. Then what happened? The world seems to be exactly the same — nothing has changed! Humanity remains in the same misery. But Jesus cannot have said, I have come for the salvation of the world.

    But it happens always when a church starts establishing itself that it has to create such ideas, otherwise who is going to listen to the priests? Jesus is salvation — not only that but the ONLY salvation! Just the other night I was looking at a book: JESUS, THE ONLY WAY. Why the only way? Is Buddha not a way? Is Lao Tzu not a way? Is Zarathustra not a way? Is Moses not a way? Is Mohammed not a way? There are infinite ways to reach God. Why make God so poor? — only one way?

    But the Christian priest is not interested in God: he is interested in creating a business. He has to claim that Jesus is the ONLY way, that all other ways are wrong. He is in search of customers. That’s why every religion creates fascists and fanatics. EVERY religion claims, My way is the only right way — only through me can you arrive at God. If you go on some other way you are destined for hell, you are doomed.” This is a fascist way of thinking and this creates fanatics. And all religious people are fanatics, and the world has suffered very much from this fanatical approach. It is TIME, ripe time now, to drop all kinds of fascist and fanatical attitudes.

    Jesus is a way, but the way has to be walked. The way can go on lying there; it is not going to help you. Just by being there, just by being crucified, Jesus cannot be the salvation of the world — otherwise it would have happened! Then what are we doing now? Then what are the priests doing now? What is the Pope doing now?

    http://www.oshoteachings.com/osho-je...oss-salvation/

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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    Chris82,

    The article you have quoted from on both of your posts, here, are the teachings of 'osho'. In reading your posts, it appears that you have 'copied and pasted' his, (osho), comments. Do you have any comments/questions that you wish to ask yourself? The OP states,.....'Bible Topics and Questions', ....so I'm having some difficulty trying to see where your articles fit in, here.


    Your friend, brother, and servant,........kreagle
    ***Death***************Burial***************Resurrection***



    Quote 1 John 2:6 (KJV)

    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    ( Obedience to Acts 2:38 enables us to 'spiritually' walk down our own personal pathway to Calvary with our own personal Cross!)

  17. Link to Post #134
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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    kreagle,

    I copy/pasted those articles because they represent exactly what I wanted to say. Sometimes it's hard for me to put in english very complex issues.

    I admit I also wanted to see how willing are you to get out of your comfort zone and engage in an interesting discussion.

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    United States Avalon Member kreagle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    Chris82,

    I'm always completely open to a 'productive discussion', (for both parties), my dear friend.

    I really didn't know how to respond to you earlier, in that there were no actual words from you,.....just these articles.

    Feel free to ask and/or discuss as you please, but I must ask you to to abide by the simple guidelines of the OP. I think I have made it clear that this thread is not a place for debate. For example, another Avalon member, Levent Tonga, started a similar thread approximately one week after I began this one, titled,.....'The Noble Qur'an topics and Questions.' Since I personally do not ascribe to his particular belief system, I feel that I would be 'out of place' frequenting his thread and trying to participate in a topic that I am not a believer in. First of all, it would be disrespectful of me, secondly it would more than likely lead to a heated debate by one or both parties, and last, but not least, probably lead to a complete derailment of his thread. Even though I may not believe in his personal 'belief system',......I still respect his desire and right to have his thread and topic, without my interference. I also expect the same, here.

    Some people enter into discussions with the ultimate goal of throwing the proverbial 'rock in the hen house' and gleefully 'watching the feathers fly!'

    I can assure you that I am not one of those individuals.

    You imply that you would like me to 'get out of my comfort zone', in an effort to discuss your views. If the material you have to present here is designed to 'negate His Word or His Divinity' than I must advise you that you won't be comfortable here.

    I hope you understand where I am coming from with these statements. The above illustration should fully indicate to you, and everyone else, that I respect others 'rights and belief systems'. It has been suggested by one of our mods, Kristin, that someone could start a thread that would involve 'debate' if that is what they wanted to do. I do not, and will not, participate in any such thread.


    your friend, brother, and servant,.......kreagle
    ***Death***************Burial***************Resurrection***



    Quote 1 John 2:6 (KJV)

    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    ( Obedience to Acts 2:38 enables us to 'spiritually' walk down our own personal pathway to Calvary with our own personal Cross!)

  19. Link to Post #136
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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    kreagle,

    From my understanding there is a topic called The Bible where users can share Christian views and interpretations on this issue without any derailment.

    on that topic Kristin wrote :

    Quote Posted by Kristin (here)

    [...]
    If it is important to have that DEBATE between the two factions and a DEBATE is agreed to by both sides... then by all means continue... but I suggest that another thread "Bible Debate" would be appropriate, as there are people here who just want to talk about God and Jesus and who really were not looking for a debate in the first place.

    Let's try to be understanding enough of others to allow them to have their conversation. I INVITE any of you who wish to DEBATE the Bible as a foundation to do so on another thread. Debate is healthy, eye opening, and can create change of opinion, beliefs, and help the world see itself for what it is; especially when engaged in respectfully.

    From the heart,
    Kristin
    You quote this post of her in your OP here. That is the reason I think me and other users are under the impression that we can debate variuos issues on this topic.

    If you only wish to stick to the Bible and Christian dogma why open another thread and not just post on The Bible thread?

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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    Quote Posted by kreagle (here)
    If the material you have to present here is designed to 'negate His Word or His Divinity' than I must advise you that you won't be comfortable here.
    I'm more interested on what some people turned His Word and His Divinity into. I'm interested in discussing the great evil the church is and has been for generations.

    So I'm happy I found this thread where we can debate all this things.

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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    Quote Posted by Chris82 (here)
    kreagle,

    From my understanding there is a topic called The Bible where users can share Christian views and interpretations on this issue without any derailment.

    on that topic Kristin wrote :

    Quote Posted by Kristin (here)

    [...]
    If it is important to have that DEBATE between the two factions and a DEBATE is agreed to by both sides... then by all means continue... but I suggest that another thread "Bible Debate" would be appropriate, as there are people here who just want to talk about God and Jesus and who really were not looking for a debate in the first place.

    Let's try to be understanding enough of others to allow them to have their conversation. I INVITE any of you who wish to DEBATE the Bible as a foundation to do so on another thread. Debate is healthy, eye opening, and can create change of opinion, beliefs, and help the world see itself for what it is; especially when engaged in respectfully.

    From the heart,
    Kristin
    You quote this post of her in your OP here. That is the reason I think me and other users are under the impression that we can debate variuos issues on this topic.
    If you only wish to stick to the Bible and Christian dogma why open another thread and not just post on The Bible thread?
    Chris82,

    You have 'conveniently' only copied and pasted a 'portion of Kristin's advice' in an effort to gain your wishes as you have laid out here for a 'proposed debate'. It's conditions like these where only 'partial statements' are cherry-picked that lead to complete misunderstandings. I can only 'imagine' what it would be like to enter into a debate with anyone who would deploy such deceptive tactics.

    Once again, I will supply Kristin's link and her 'entire post' on this matter,.......
    Link: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post528083

    Quote Re: the Bible
    Hello again, I see two things happening here: First we have those here who are discussing the Bible within the context of the OP: "let the Bible speak to inform and explore what the Book says about our origin history and purpose"

    These folks are having a respectful conversation within the context of a belief system. The conversation is about the nuances of the belief system in practice. This could apply the same if it was a conversation about Buddhism, Sufi, or Wiccan beliefs. The participants are here due to a familiarity of the subject matter. Some may be practicing Christians, others may be fringe Bible readers. Regardless, it is about Dogma and religious practice.

    Now the second thing that is going on is that the thread is being derailed by those who from the outside do not believe in the entire premiss of the Bible as a foundation. This is absolutely your right to believe... HOWEVER, this is not the intention of this thread. I suggest that a new thread is started which is about the "Question of the Bible" and then those who wish to engage in peaceful conversation about the content are allowed to do so without further derailment.

    Understood? People have a right to their own belief systems, and they also have a right to have a conversation about them. People also have a right to think that the Bible as a whole is a pure fantasy and not anything more then clever parables and myth; and they have a right to discuss that as well...


    If it is important to have that DEBATE between the two factions and a DEBATE is agreed to by both sides... then by all means continue... but I suggest that another thread "Bible Debate" would be appropriate, as there are people here who just want to talk about God and Jesus and who really were not looking for a debate in the first place.

    Let's try to be understanding enough of others to allow them to have their conversation. I INVITE any of you who wish to DEBATE the Bible as a foundation to do so on another thread. Debate is healthy, eye opening, and can create change of opinion, beliefs, and help the world see itself for what it is; especially when engaged in respectfully.

    From the heart,
    Kristin

    Chris82, had you paid more attention to the 'entire thread' of Kristin, you would have easily picked up her suggestion for a 'new thread' possibly being started with her suggested title of,....'Questions of the Bible',....which I opted, instead, for 'Bible Topics and Questions'. I, and the other Avalon posters on this current thread belong squarely in the upper portion of Kristin's post,( the highlighted blue part).

    If you, and 'others', wish to have your debate, which is perfectly within your rights to do so, you can either follow Kristin's advice and start 'such a debate thread' of your choosing, or you can resurrect that old thread,....'the Bible' and pick up where they left off. The level of 'debate' there had gotten entirely 'out of hand' and even played a 'partial' role in the 'originator of that OP' to be dismissed from this Avalon forum.

    With this, I've stated my full position. For me to opt to 'join you and others' in debate here, would mean that even I would have to be in violation to the very design of this OP set down by me to begin with. I will not go down that pathway, my friend.

    I have precisely followed the advise of our moderator, Kristin, as indicated in the 'entirety of her post' above,.....and I ask for you, and others to do likewise.


    Peace and Love,......kreagle
    ***Death***************Burial***************Resurrection***



    Quote 1 John 2:6 (KJV)

    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    ( Obedience to Acts 2:38 enables us to 'spiritually' walk down our own personal pathway to Calvary with our own personal Cross!)

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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    remember everyone, kreagle isn't a Priest, Bishop or Pope, he's one of us and has never seen any of the evils that are talked about on conspiracy forums...

    99.9999% of the people in the world haven't it is a beheading offense in some countries, luckily most of us aren't there or we would be viewing the world from our head stuck on a post...

    I asked him in the beginning if he believed in ET's and he gave a very direct answer... no, which I respect, but also shared why I believe there are...

    that is a discussion...

    a debate is two teams with Boxing gloves waiting for Jerry Springer to ring the bell...

    PBUK...

    you'll need it with this crowd...

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    Default Re: Bible Topics and Questions

    Quote Posted by Chris82 (here)
    Quote Posted by kreagle (here)
    If the material you have to present here is designed to 'negate His Word or His Divinity' than I must advise you that you won't be comfortable here.
    I'm more interested on what some people turned His Word and His Divinity into. I'm interested in discussing the great evil the church is and has been for generations.

    So I'm happy I found this thread where we can debate all this things.
    Chris82,

    The previous thread you are referring to,.....'the Bible' is located here: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post358629

    In that thread, I personally had 56 posts, and some of them dealing, (or hinting) towards, the very topic you are referring to here. You'll see towards the latter end of that post, where the originator of the OP was dismissed, where there were certain individuals who adamantly only wanted to debate with their own material and to completely dismiss Biblical texts, etc, as any viable or reliable evidence.

    If you wish to 'start a debate thread', or pick up on this one,......by all means go right ahead. I, quite frankly, wouldn't mind 'discussing' the topic/statement you have made here........

    Quote I'm more interested on what some people turned His Word and His Divinity into. I'm interested in discussing the great evil the church is and has been for generations.
    If you 'search' some of my many posts, etc., you'll begin to get an 'overall' impression of my views on this. However, I will not discuss it, in a debate form, on this particular thread, as I have stated, and for the reasons I've made known, here.

    If you should start a 'debate thread' I will perhaps 'view' it, and, deciding upon the civility of it, either decide to contribute to it, or not.

    I really mean you well, in all things, and genuinely look forward to having and conducting fruitful discussions with you in the very near future!


    Your friend, brother, and servant,.......kreagle
    ***Death***************Burial***************Resurrection***



    Quote 1 John 2:6 (KJV)

    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    ( Obedience to Acts 2:38 enables us to 'spiritually' walk down our own personal pathway to Calvary with our own personal Cross!)

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