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Thread: Faith and Will

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    Default Faith and Will

    A paradox exists where faith is required to reckon with and make progress into the unknown and at the same time one must have the will to take those steps.

    Without faith the steps may not be taken - the survival instinct prevents it.

    Without the will to take the steps the feet shall surely not move.

    How then does one nurture faith?

    How does one nurture the strength of will?

    Must they be done together?

    Are they co-dependent and inter-related within a larger framework of a love/fear polarity ?

    The answer to this paradox lies behind a locked door.

    The key to that door is silence.
    -- Let the truth be known by all, let the whole truth be known by all, let nothing but the truth be known by all --

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Faith is the evidence of things unseen.

    Ive always loved that quote.

    Theres someplace in the bible that talks about having the faith of a mustard seed.

    The kind of faith that moves mountains is not what most people would call faith. Not really. What most people call faith, in their minds, is really hope. Hope framed by a bunch of doubt.

    Thats not faith.

    Faith is what we have each time we take a breath and their is air to breath.

    Even though we cant see it we absolutely know it is there.

    Its what we have when we take a step and there is ground beneath our feet. And it is solid.

    Even though can see it we still know it is there.

    Faith is certain knowledge. Not a hypothesis. Not a theory. Not a supposition, possibility or potentiality.

    It is knowing there are OOBES because youve had one. Knowing there are ghosts because youve seen one. Knowing there is an overriding consciousness, source of love and eternal bliss because youve basked in it.

    Then all of the questioners and their questions, doubts and itnorance can be discounted at the personal level even as they continue to cause a ruckus among non-experiencers.


    But even for them, it is only a matter of time, measured in days, years decades and centuries, before they can move mountains too. Look at a mustard seed and understand the meaning of that parable.
    Last edited by Mark; 25th September 2012 at 04:46.

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Quote Posted by Anchor (here)
    How then does one nurture faith?

    How does one nurture the strength of will?
    One does neither.

    How about one throws faith and will out altogether.....discards them as beliefs and attachments of the illusory self.

    What remains?


    Jeanette

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Quote Posted by Jenci (here)
    Quote Posted by Anchor (here)
    How then does one nurture faith?

    How does one nurture the strength of will?
    One does neither.

    How about one throws faith and will out altogether.....discards them as beliefs and attachments of the illusory self.

    What remains?


    Jeanette
    Absolute stillness.
    Love, love - and see what happens

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Quote Posted by Jenci (here)
    Quote Posted by Anchor (here)
    How then does one nurture faith?

    How does one nurture the strength of will?
    One does neither.

    How about one throws faith and will out altogether.....discards them as beliefs and attachments of the illusory self.

    What remains?
    To reach that state requires will and faith.

    One attempts to describe the intermediate steps, not the goal.

    Its easier for me to do this at the moment as I languish in the luxury of knowing my illusory self and reserve the option to escape.

    We are here to do a job are we not?
    -- Let the truth be known by all, let the whole truth be known by all, let nothing but the truth be known by all --

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    "The answer to this paradox lies behind a locked door."
    "The key to that door is silence."


    ...then fearlessly open the door and step through.

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    The only places I recognize faith anymore are in the places I'm most inclined to doubt.
    I doubt my own experiences sometimes as delusional, I doubt information that was useful at the time is any use to me now.

    There's no doubt about what's outside me now, it's even more meaningless and ridiculous than I'd ever dreamed.

    I guess I have faith that whatever has driven me through everything it has, has 'me' as it's subject,
    and i don't think it's possible for the little nearsighted contrary me to disappoint it.
    I'm counting entirely on that. That's faith right?

    Will is a tangled idea. The will, or the force that rules every move, to a human self identity is survival and comfort.
    Even post human, identity furnishes it's own afterlife.

    My 'will' as I identify it, is some times to stay in bed. I respect that act of will. All of the power in the universe
    is used for that.
    But something often wills for things I wouldn't willingly choose that I couldn't find my way home without.
    I couldn't be stronger than that.

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    That is very interesting.

    I don't at this time see faith as a driver, more an enabler. It is more like the setting aside of obstacles.

    Will I do see as the driver, and the two together enable movement in a direction that without these two would not be possible because other factors would be able to impede me.

    Of the two, I see faith as the one containing the greater paradox.

    To act in faith is to be able to choose without knowing all the facts.

    We dont know all the facts but we must choose.

    Faith seems to matter when you have things that are unknown, yet there we must go.
    -- Let the truth be known by all, let the whole truth be known by all, let nothing but the truth be known by all --

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Quote Posted by Anchor (here)
    That is very interesting.

    I don't at this time see faith as a driver, more an enabler. It is more like the setting aside of obstacles.

    Will I do see as the driver, and the two together enable movement in a direction that without these two would not be possible because other factors would be able to impede me.

    Of the two, I see faith as the one containing the greater paradox.

    To act in faith is to be able to choose without knowing all the facts.

    We dont know all the facts but we must choose.

    Faith seems to matter when you have things that are unknown, yet there we must go.
    I have no faith in that definition.

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Quote Posted by Anchor (here)

    To reach that state requires will and faith.

    One attempts to describe the intermediate steps, not the goal.
    The absolute stillness is there before anything distorts it. It's the most simple (uncomplicated) of things yet as seekers we complicate it by adding in things that we need or we need to do, all of which become obstacles to obscure the very thing we are seeking.

    Even the idea that there are intermediate steps is a belief and a concept which becomes an obstacle which will have to be removed. Why put the obstacle there in the first place?

    Now in real life terms of the seeker, however simple this is, it's not easy. However, it was only people pointing out that the very tools that I thought I needed were the obstacles keeping me from where I was going, that I was able to realise the simplicity.

    Right now, personally I am wielding a huge sword cutting out all the obstacles which I have built around me...or is that a huge scythe, I quite like that image, lol, and that is naturally going to reflect in my writing but I also know that everyone is where they need to be right now, all of it is perfect so if people need faith and will, that's fine by me.....it's all good, John





    Quote We are here to do a job are we not?
    No, I am not here to do any job....


    Jeanette

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Quote Posted by Jenci (here)
    However, it was only people pointing out that the very tools that I thought I needed were the obstacles keeping me from where I was going, that I was able to realise the simplicity.
    Did you not develop faith in yourself in order to be able to do this (essentially discernment) ? What you have done is a marvelous thing by the way and I like the way you write about it so effectively.

    Quote Posted by Jenci (here)
    Right now, personally I am wielding a huge sword cutting out all the obstacles which I have built around me...or is that a huge scythe, I quite like that image, lol, and that is naturally going to reflect in my writing but I also know that everyone is where they need to be right now, all of it is perfect so if people need faith and will, that's fine by me.....it's all good, John
    The conundrum shows its head.

    I realize that you are quite capable of avoiding any intellectual obstacles that may be put in your way, and I would not want to act as an obstacle.

    That said...

    How can you wield a sword? You have made a decision. You act. Will is thereby evident. This is my working assumption.

    I suspect that you favor the notion that you flow from action to action, choices are not consciously made in time, but they are impelled by something - what is that?

    Divine will?

    In that way of thinking, it may be an affront to break it all down into intellectually digestible components. However, doing so it has helped me, it may help others, but there is always the risk of reductio ad-absurdum.

    I fancy that I hear once again your thought that I am over-thinking this. You are probably right as usual, but it is fun.

    Quote Posted by Jenci (here)
    No, I am not here to do any job....
    But you are doing it so well

    I am from outside of time, projected into time. An unremembered choice that I know for sure I took.

    I took it for a reason.

    It could very possibly not be the same reason you did the same.

    (Also off topic and I should have been more tightly focused and not mentioned it.)
    -- Let the truth be known by all, let the whole truth be known by all, let nothing but the truth be known by all --

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Quote Posted by Anchor (here)
    Quote Posted by Jenci (here)
    Quote Posted by Anchor (here)
    How then does one nurture faith?

    How does one nurture the strength of will?
    One does neither.

    How about one throws faith and will out altogether.....discards them as beliefs and attachments of the illusory self.

    What remains?
    To reach that state requires will and faith.

    One attempts to describe the intermediate steps, not the goal.

    Its easier for me to do this at the moment as I languish in the luxury of knowing my illusory self and reserve the option to escape.

    We are here to do a job are we not?

    It's quite funny actually John, as more people with spiritual insights are sharing their light the more I see the connection that I saw long ago studying scriptures.
    As long as I can remember I was wondering of what Jesus or God religious people were talking about since I don't know them... Jesus is not Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant or anyone's.

    Jesus spoke about this path of a soul who comes from ignorance to the light and what this means.
    And no wonder why many didn't "get" him.

    Faith and will are essential tools in soul's carriage while going through life.
    Eventually each soul stop needing tolls anymore...
    Love, love - and see what happens

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Quote Posted by Beren (here)
    It's quite funny actually John, as more people with spiritual insights are sharing their light the more I see the connection that I saw long ago studying scriptures.
    As long as I can remember I was wondering of what Jesus or God religious people were talking about since I don't know them... Jesus is not Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant or anyone's.

    Jesus spoke about this path of a soul who comes from ignorance to the light and what this means.
    And no wonder why many didn't "get" him.

    Faith and will are essential tools in soul's carriage while going through life.
    Eventually each soul stop needing tolls anymore...
    Thanks.

    Well, I'm certainly a fan of Jesus, and he had a thing or two to say about faith.

    (Rahkyt has already visited this idea above, but...)

    KJV Mat 17:20 - And Jesus said to them, Because of your unbelief: for truly I say to you, If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you.

    The idea for this thread arose out of something I was thinking about before I posted this morning .

    Quoting myself from that other thread talking about manifesting things:
    In performing conscious manifestation you need deployment of will and faith in good measure - and also a certain amount of practiced mental discipline - which is why I keep going on about meditation as that is the best way I know to acquire the mental "visioning" skills.

    Its not easy, until it is... at which point you may find you don't actually do much of it - because along the way, you may well gain a more deep appreciation of why the mountain is where it is, and even if you have faith the size of a grain of mustard and could move it easily, you don't.
    John..
    Last edited by Anchor; 25th September 2012 at 11:37.
    -- Let the truth be known by all, let the whole truth be known by all, let nothing but the truth be known by all --

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Quote Posted by Anchor (here)
    Did you not develop faith in yourself in order to be able to do this (essentially discernment) ? What you have done is a marvelous thing by the way and I like the way you write about it so effectively.
    This process started for me at the point of surrender. When things starting happening for me and I saw the results of that surrender, I have, from time to time, developed faith and in developing faith I have gone from surrender (letting go) to faith (clinging)

    Every time I have done that (and I still do somewhat) it's got very painful and I have had to go back to surrender.


    Quote Posted by Anchor
    Quote Posted by Jenci (here)
    Right now, personally I am wielding a huge sword cutting out all the obstacles which I have built around me...or is that a huge scythe, I quite like that image, lol, and that is naturally going to reflect in my writing but I also know that everyone is where they need to be right now, all of it is perfect so if people need faith and will, that's fine by me.....it's all good, John
    The conundrum shows its head.

    I realize that you are quite capable of avoiding any intellectual obstacles that may be put in your way, and I would not want to act as an obstacle.

    That said...

    How can you wield a sword? You have made a decision. You act. Will is thereby evident. This is my working assumption.
    The sword being wielded is a metaphor but rather than implying action it is more non-action. It is more 'not paying attention to' or 'ignoring' rather than taking action to remove the obstacles.

    For example a thought may arise that I have moved to a new stage of this awakening process and in that some faith or trust may appear in the process because it is working. This thought arises, I see this thought as nothing more than a story I am telling myself about "me" and I just shift my attention away from it back onto what is aware of it.

    The reason for sword metaphor is that it shows that I have to be disciplined and brutal in not letting my attention get drawn to any of these stories about "me"....and also anotherbob told me to wield the sword and I thought it was a cool way of describing it.

    I suppose you could say that even being disciplined and brutal is me using my will. I would say it is more Thy will, not mine although that can be misleading because it can bring up concepts about what "Thy" is.


    Quote I suspect that you favor the notion that you flow from action to action, choices are not consciously made in time, but they are impelled by something - what is that?

    Divine will?
    Any time I get into thinking what impels anything I get caught up into a story of me and my choices or whatever and get drawn back into time. Really, it just spontaneously happens and the more I am 'out of time' and the story of me, I see things spontaneously happening right out of nothing.


    Quote In that way of thinking, it may be an affront to break it all down into intellectually digestible components. However, doing so it has helped me, it may help others, but there is always the risk of reductio ad-absurdum.

    I fancy that I hear once again your thought that I am over-thinking this. You are probably right as usual, but it is fun.
    Yes, but I know you are having fun

    Of course along the way there is probably going to be much reading, talking, studying, following, practising where a mutlitude of explanations and techniques will need to be investigated by the seeker but the obstacle to our seeking is our mind and simple one liners have a tremendous power to cut through all the mind stuff.

    If you want to point someone to what they are seeking, then they needed to be pointed away from their mind. Too much information and words busies the mind and the mind cannot understand this stuff because it lies beyond its own understanding

    Jeanette

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Faith = Knowing


    Faith begins with choosing to believe is something that is beyond one’s belief system. The path to knowing (faith) on any topic has an emotional journey. I agree with the phase, “The key to that door is silence.”

    When we silence the “Monkey Brain” other thoughts come into our lives. These thoughts move us along the emotional journey to another fork in the road.

    “Two roads diverged in a wood and I took the one less traveled by.”
    – Robert Frost –

    In my reality, “The one less traveled” is the one that allows you to see if your fears are illusions.

    Nurture = Choosing “The road less traveled”

    Rather than using the word “Nurture”, the word “Choosing” works for me. Metaphorically speaking, we are all on the “Highway of Life.” We exit the freeway at times for rest and nourishment. Our bodies (The vehicle) can only travel finite amounts of time in this time-space reality.

    The “Course in Miracles” teaches that only two thought types exist: Fear and Love. All emotional definitions are a subset of these two types. Frustration, pessimism, and anger fall under the heading of Fear. Joy, optimism, patience, and gratitude are in the Love category. For me, “The road less traveled” is the Love category.

    Power = Peace


    For me, I have found that peace is more powerful (strength) than the opposite. Rather than “Will”, the thought process of choosing love works for me.

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Faith is not, for me, a matter of unquestioning loyalty. To have faith without questioning is to conform mindlessly to dogma. So I see doubt as equally essential as faith on our journey. They are not mutually exclusive, as has often been portrayed by the religious controllers.

    It seems our journey often begins with a question. That is the will to move forward and break the inertia. Just to start to ask, to look, to examine, to enquire inwardly, to consider upsetting the status quo takes courage and effort - and doubt is often the trigger and impetus. Without this questioning, we would grind to a halt. But this doubt is not self-doubt, or disbelief…and it's not an endless spiral of intellectual philosophising either. It's more of an acknowledgement.

    Faith is a kind of trust, arising from the testing, the examination, the doubting. Trust in ourselves, and in the process of the journey. It is the doubt that opens us and gives us the courage to challenge ourselves and face our fears, and through this often uncomfortable approach, confidence/faith arises naturally.

    No doubt…no faith
    No faith…no doubt

    Faith is an essential part of our practice. And so is doubt. A delicate equilibrium.

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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Excuse me, Anchor, for not addressing your questions in my first response. As a prequel, these statements are made in the context of someone along the path and as an operational discussion, taking into account the process-oriented nature of time-dependent experiential living. In other words, I'm speaking from the lower, material perspective, not the higher, eternal perspective where everything is already known and nothing need be learned.

    1) Faith is nurtured by learning to rest in the Absolute. Stilling the mind.

    Doing so causes the questioning to cease. Gets rid of history and the future, cultivates Presence. Presence is active, living consciousness totally immersed within the Now moment. Presence, being in the Now, reveals the illusion of Past and Future, making all questions meaningless when it comes to the immediate concerns of the moment. Faith arises when one is totally Present. Am I fine now? Is the world still here? Is there air for me to breath? A ground for me to sit on?

    These questions are meaningless when they are happening. As all questions and their answers are meaningless in the context of immersing one's self within the experiential cornucopia of living viscerally.

    Faith is not a question for a mustard seed. For a bird. For a spider. These souls do amazing things with no question as to how or why. They just do.

    The evidence of things unseen is certain knowledge of the Absolute. Certain knowledge of the Absolute only occurs when questioning ceases. in the Now. No cognition, no need to do anything. No need to become, just to be.

    In this way, Faith is implicit in Life itself. In existence itself. As so much depends upon this evidence (bodily processes, astronomical processes, etc.), it is actually moot to even question it or attempt to define it beyond the broadest scope of understanding. There were questions even the Buddha would not answer.

    2. The capacity to nurture strength of will is dependent upon the connection of intent to the flow of the Absolute.

    Emotion and desire give rise to intent expressed by the application of will towards manifestation upon the material plane. This interplay is the pendulum swing between light and dark, between oppositions, yin and yang, extremes of karmic involvement that result in cause and effect repercussions and continuous incarnation within the structure of the Dharmic wheel.

    The closer one's intent is to expressing the will of the Absolute the stronger that expression of will will be.

    Strength of will is also cultivated by stillness. Connecting with the eternal. Ending the conflict of the bicameral mind. Becoming singular of purpose not in the human sense of becoming obsessed with a particular goal or outcome that serves the ego-state but by becoming the conduit of a higher energetic source. The ego-state then becomes in microcosm, a perfect reflection of the super-ego (higher self, avataric being, etc.) state in macrocosm.

    A potentiality that can only find expression if the tendencies of the mind to wander are conquered, presence in the Now is fostered and the higher connection to the Divine is cultivated.

    3. It is a feedback loop. It can be said that they occur simultaneously. But, within time and through space, it is a process of letting go, as Jenci said. Of allowing the clarity that exists beneath to rise through the confusion of a lifetime of learning to become the primary expression of a personality. As the connection between the person and the Absolute becomes clearer, strength of will becomes stronger, more focused.

    4. Alll polarities are expressions of the dichotomous nature of physical reality. The individual that cultivates the Absolute goes beyond those limitations and thusly is no longer limited by them.

    It is often said that God is Love. Which gives rise to the retort, then what of hate? What of fear? How can such exist within an all-pervasive continuum of endless and eternal Love? Love is the ocean, which is acceptance. Like the World Ocean, which accepts all of humanity's refuse while being the bounty that continues to give, to support our very essence and being and from whence we once emerged in some form or another. All of our pain, our agony, our separation anxiety expressed physical as plastics, as human waste, nuclear waste. Our separation from each other, the world, the cosmos, expressed as tons of trash dumped into an oceanic abyss, out of sight, out of mind.

    An illusion. A dangerous one.

    There is no separation. Thus, there is no fear. There is no hate. There is no refuse. There is no trash. There is always and only Love. There is always and only the World Ocean. Even those expressing the extremes of disfunction and maladjustment, the angry, the murderous, the envious, the hateful, are reacting to that all-encompassing field of love within which we all exist. Rejection and densification, self-imposed separation and further devolution, returning to Source/the Absolute by way of a different route, yet a valid choice and path all the same.
    Last edited by Mark; 25th September 2012 at 17:47.

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    Virgin Islands Avalon Member Selene's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Rahkyt, of your many eloquent and insightful posts at Avalon, this is surely one of your finest.

    Absolutely beautiful.

    Many thanks,

    Selene

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    United States Avalon Member Sebastion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Simply magnificent, Rahkyt........


    Quote Posted by Rahkyt (here)
    Excuse me, Anchor, for not addressing your questions in my first response. As a prequel, these statements are made in the context of someone along the path and as an operational discussion, taking into account the process-oriented nature of time-dependent experiential living. In other words, I'm speaking from the lower, material perspective, not the higher, eternal perspective where everything is already known and nothing need be learned.

    1) Faith is nurtured by learning to rest in the Absolute. Stilling the mind.

    Doing so causes the questioning to cease. Gets rid of history and the future, cultivates Presence. Presence is active, living consciousness totally immersed within the Now moment. Presence, being in the Now, reveals the illusion of Past and Future, making all questions meaningless when it comes to the immediate concerns of the moment. Faith arises when one is totally Present. Am I fine now? Is the world still here? Is there air for me to breath? A ground for me to sit on?

    These questions are meaningless when they are happening. As all questions and their answers are meaningless in the context of immersing one's self within the experiential cornucopia of living viscerally.

    Faith is not a question for a mustard seed. For a bird. For a spider. These souls do amazing things with no question as to how or why. They just do.

    The evidence of things unseen is certain knowledge of the Absolute. Certain knowledge of the Absolute only occurs when questioning ceases. in the Now. No cognition, no need to do anything. No need to become, just to be.

    In this way, Faith is implicit in Life itself. In existence itself. As so much depends upon this evidence (bodily processes, astronomical processes, etc.), it is actually moot to even question it or attempt to define it beyond the broadest scope of understanding. There were questions even the Buddha would not answer.

    2. The capacity to nurture strength of will is dependent upon the connection of intent to the flow of the Absolute.

    Emotion and desire give rise to intent expressed by the application of will towards manifestation upon the material plane. This interplay is the pendulum swing between light and dark, between oppositions, yin and yang, extremes of karmic involvement that result in cause and effect repercussions and continuous incarnation within the structure of the Dharmic wheel.

    The closer one's intent is to expressing the will of the Absolute the stronger that expression of will will be.

    Strength of will is also cultivated by stillness. Connecting with the eternal. Ending the conflict of the bicameral mind. Becoming singular of purpose not in the human sense of becoming obsessed with a particular goal or outcome that serves the ego-state but by becoming the conduit of a higher energetic source. The ego-state then becomes in microcosm, a perfect reflection of the super-ego (higher self, avataric being, etc.) state in macrocosm.

    A potentiality that can only find expression if the tendencies of the mind to wander are conquered, presence in the Now is fostered and the higher connection to the Divine is cultivated.

    3. It is a feedback loop. It can be said that they occur simultaneously. But, within time and through space, it is a process of letting go, as Jenci said. Of allowing the clarity that exists beneath to rise through the confusion of a lifetime of learning to become the primary expression of a personality. As the connection between the person and the Absolute becomes clearer, strength of will becomes stronger, more focused.

    4. Alll polarities are expressions of the dichotomous nature of physical reality. The individual that cultivates the Absolute goes beyond those limitations and thusly is no longer limited by them.

    It is often said that God is Love. Which gives rise to the retort, then what of hate? What of fear? How can such exist within an all-pervasive continuum of endless and eternal Love? Love is the ocean, which is acceptance. Like the World Ocean, which accepts all of humanity's refuse while being the bounty that continues to give, to support our very essence and being and from whence we once emerged in some form or another. All of our pain, our agony, our separation anxiety expressed physical as plastics, as human waste, nuclear waste. Our separation from each other, the world, the cosmos, expressed as tons of trash dumped into an oceanic abyss, out of sight, out of mind.

    An illusion. A dangerous one.

    There is no separation. Thus, there is no fear. There is no hate. There is no refuse. There is no trash. There is always and only Love. There is always and only the World Ocean. Even those expressing the extremes of disfunction and maladjustment, the angry, the murderous, the envious, the hateful, are reacting to that all-encompassing field of love within which we all exist. Rejection and densification, self-imposed separation and further devolution, returning to Source/the Absolute by way of a different route, yet a valid choice and path all the same.

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    United States Avalon Member sirdipswitch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faith and Will

    Faith gives us the will to act... on something we hope... is true. Nothing more.

    Knowing... eliminates... faith and hope.

    Why does one waste so many words, in attempting to explane something simple.
    Love, Peace, Humor
    sirdipswitch


    " A little knowledge, is a dangerous thing... so is a lot."
    - Albert Einstein -

    "Please, Do NOT, believe a word that I say, for this is my journey not yours. Go do your own research. Listen to no-one. Find YOUR own Truth. As "I" did." "It is all just a Game, play it as you will."
    -sirdipswitch-

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