Bible Topics and Questions

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Akasha (here)
Thanks for that, Star Mariner. I understand what you are saying now, but would you not agree that "wisdom, grace, humility, patience, compassion" are in fact attributes of love, not to mention the other qualities ascribed to "the Spirit" in Galatians 5.22-23 ?

You are absolutely right! And very nicely put. All those good things I mentioned are sub-divisions of love, just as we are subdivisions of God - just walking capsules of love, if only we all knew it.

Posted by Akasha (here)
I should also add that I totally agree with you regarding the "misconception in the Human perception of God". My concept of love actually being God helps to avoid that anthropomorphic trap too, instead summoning up images of energy or "the force" as you mentioned in one of your earlier posts.

Yeh absolutely. I do understand why many feel they need to place a human face on "God", and Christians may quote: 'god created man in his own image', so that is quite likely the origin of that ideology.

Posted by kreagle (here)
While there are 'those' who believe that there was 'water underneath Peter's feet',....as he walked, ( for awhile), towards Jesus,.....I will submit to 'each of you' that this is a 'complete misunderstanding and interpretation of the Scriptures!'

You, nor I, ( nor Peter), can 'walk on water',.....it's an 'impossibility!'

Even though me and you may differ in the woven pattern and colour of our ideologies, kreagle, we share the same source nonetheless, and the yarns of our understanding weave toward the same destination. That is why I visited this thread, to help bring to the table different or even completely disparate themes that can still find a common ground. Religious separation is a great evil in this world, perhaps the worst of all. I would love for all of us, of whatever belief, and from whatever background, to sit down together, break bread and celebrate that which brings us together rather than what sets us apart. (see my Avatar).

See… in an amused sort of way I’m a tad confused! You strike me as someone who interprets the bible very strictly to the letter, so it really surprises me that you derive a metaphorical meaning in this passage rather than a literal. Normally I’d say that was a good thing, the separation of which I spoke before, the ‘taking corners’ arises from reading everything by the letter.

But here kreagle, and mate I think you’ll laugh at this! For here is a spiritual free-thinker telling the Christian that his interpretation of scripture is not hard-core enough!! Lol.

I do believe that we can, very literally walk on water with the Power of thought – belief, if we know how to manifest it. I must think that you do believe that Jesus himself did do this right? From walking on water to curing the sick, he performed what in our day to day existence is nothing short of miracles, right? If he did not, and we are left with completely with metaphor, then the life of Jesus is reduced to what, a fairy-tale?

I submit to you, kreagle, that walking on water is NOT an impossibility. Christ could do this, not as a parlour trick, and not because of some stupid human distortion that would call it witchcraft or some other nonsense. He did it because he was so advanced in Spirit that he literally had command of Matter manifested around him. Nothing he did was outside of natural law – and yes that means Science. Parapsychology.

Radical Christians would have this as the devil’s work, which is garbage talk. For the sake of all that is merciful, Jesus did it!! Jesus showed it, at work before the disbelieving eyes of his followers. The Romans crucified him because he was so advanced in the Mysteries that he posed a massive threat to them.

Spirit trumps matter, every day of the week!

Listen, my friend. Jesus was a symbol of all that we can become if we could just understand that there is a Power in our soul, waiting to be tapped. We are not Humans with a spirit inside of us, we are Spirits clad in human shape, and that we are each and everyone one of us a sub-division of the Creator-Source. This is what Jesus came to tell us. This is what Jesus came to show us, to present a perfect paradigm for us to aspire to.

The power of Spirit can alter physiological states. We see this in healing performed. We see this in prayers answered. We see this in advanced yogis who can enter such a deep state of mental clarity that they can levitate! IT.IS.TRUE. Open yourself to this reality – this is the power of the burgeoning Spiritual Human at work, because we can attain the perfection that Jesus demonstrated. And no I don’t just mean walking on water, that was merely an illustration that Matter is illusion, and that Spirit is the reality, which poor Peter was not quite ready to believe in.

No one that I am aware of, has yet ever emulated the degree of perfection and understanding that Jesus possessed. So no one will be walking on water any time soon. Small wonder, as humanity is still (very unfortunately) locked within a dense, dark prison of subjugation, of pain, of hatred, of persecution, injustice and war. This is our paradigm. And now do you see why TPTB want to keep it this way, just as the Romans wanted to keep it this way 2,000 years ago?

Water, food, the air we breathe… poison, to keep us dumbed down to our base emotions, our weakest capacity. And men behind curtains turn the wheels of the world. 2,000 years since Christ, and but for technology, how far have we developed? Not far, my friend. Not far. TPTB keep it this way for a damned good reason. They don’t want humans to unite, evolve, change… or embark upon the revolution that we are Spirits clad in Human shape and all that Jesus was we can become. Jesus wanted us to BE as he was, become what he had become… Quote the passage kreagle, I’m sure you have one that outlines that very clearly!... TPTB don’t want a population of Christs on their hands!

We can become everything that he was in heart, in mind, and in spirit, if we learn to cultivate the faith that he teaches, and the love that he embodies.

It is in us, my friend. Dormant. IT IS IN US ALL OF US.

[kreagle]

Star Mariner,

See… in an amused sort of way I’m a tad confused! You strike me as someone who interprets the bible very strictly to the letter, so it really surprises me that you derive a metaphorical meaning in this passage rather than a literal. Normally I’d say that was a good thing, the separation of which I spoke before, the ‘taking corners’ arises from reading everything by the letter.

But here kreagle, and mate I think you’ll laugh at this! For here is a spiritual free-thinker telling the Christian that his interpretation of scripture is not hard-core enough!! Lol.

I do believe that we can, very literally walk on water with the Power of thought – belief, if we know how to manifest it. I must think that you do believe that Jesus himself did do this right? From walking on water to curing the sick, he performed what in our day to day existence is nothing short of miracles, right? If he did not, and we are left with completely with metaphor, then the life of Jesus is reduced to what, a fairy-tale?

I submit to you, kreagle, that walking on water is NOT an impossibility. Christ could do this, not as a parlour trick, and not because of some stupid human distortion that would call it witchcraft or some other nonsense. He did it because he was so advanced in Spirit that he literally had command of Matter manifested around him. Nothing he did was outside of natural law – and yes that means Science. Parapsychology.

Radical Christians would have this as the devil’s work, which is garbage talk. For the sake of all that is merciful, Jesus did it!! Jesus showed it, at work before the disbelieving eyes of his followers. The Romans crucified him because he was so advanced in the Mysteries that he posed a massive threat to them.

Spirit trumps matter, every day of the week!

Your perception of me 'straying from my normal, literal, interpretation of the Bible' is with error, my dear friend. It actually goes much deeper, in that direction, than you can possibly realize. I knew this statement about 'walking on water' would be alarming, but it 'ties-in' with the concept of faith, so beautifully! Don't get me wrong, for I can agree with 'many' of the things you are saying, here. As with 'everything else' Jesus did while He was here on Earth, He did it 'as an example' for us to learn by. A 'lesson' was to be absorbed, for future use,....if we would only avail ourselves to the Teacher as 'willing and observant' pupils. As you, accurately, pointed out,....the 'walking on water' incident was not a 'parlour trick', ( as if He had nothing else better to do ), but a sincere 'classroom session' for all of humanity, if we will pay attention. Likewise, I think it would be 'safe' to say that Jesus is certainly not 'giving out lessons' on 'walking on water!' I believe that in His 'infinite Wisdom' He probably knew that 'water' wasn't going to be the 'guilty culprit' that would wreck havoc in our daily lives,...but that there would be, indeed, many other various 'real-life,... problems/situations' that would, and could, potentially 'sink us!' Consequently, we find it's 'these problems/situations' He is interested in, and focused upon,......and teaches us 'how to walk above, and victoriously, over!'

Did Jesus walk on water?,........Yes, He did!

Did Peter walk on water?,........Yes, He did, too!


If you will kindly look at my post, once again, and read, you will see that I am 'endeavoring to point out' how we humans fail to give 'faith' any 'substance!' We treat it, (faith), like it really doesn't exist, because we simply cannot 'see' it! Because of this, it's absolutely no wonder why we find ourselves 'sinking' in despair at the many problems/situations we all face as we endeavor to navigate our ways through this life!

I'd like to re-post some of my 'final comments' of that post, here,.......

While there are 'those' who believe that there was 'water underneath Peter's feet',....as he walked, ( for awhile), towards Jesus,.....I will submit to 'each of you' that this is a 'complete misunderstanding and interpretation of the Scriptures!'

You, nor I, ( nor Peter), can 'walk on water',.....it's an 'impossibility!'

But,.....we can, ( and Peter did),.....walk on 'faith' in His Word,.....and 'if' we 'just happen to be',.....over water,.....or......any other potential 'sinking problem/situation',....we will 'rise to the top and be victorious in Jesus' name!'

Between the soles of Peter's feet and that boisterous sea was a 'thin layer of faith',.....'faith with substance',......'real faith',.....'tangible faith',.....'you could feel it',.....'he knew he could rely upon it',......and consequently 'it held him up as he got out of the boat to walk to Jesus!' It was only 'after he doubted and took his eyes off of Jesus and viewed the storm', that the 'substance of faith' began to 'dissipate' causing him to sink and to call out to be saved.

And 'before' I comment on this,.....I want to add a 'statement from you',......

Spirit trumps matter, every day of the week!

To 'your statement', Star Mariner, I eagerly say,......Amen,....Amen,......and a 'resounding' Amen!!!


If you will 'look a little closer' at the contents of my quote, you will see that I am not 'denying the fact' that they, ( Jesus and Peter), walked on water,....but I'm simply pointing out what was between the 'sole of their feet' and that water.


In Jesus' case,...As the 'Word/God/Spirit,... manifested in the flesh',....He was fully in charge 'over His Creation', ( the 'elements and boisterous seas'), and He completely over-rode their 'properties', ( gravity and 'unstable liquid surface'), and 'easily walked upon, and over, them! The 'lesson', here, is that He 'already knew' that He would, (and could), dictate the 'terms' to Nature, and not the 'other way around!' It's this 'lesson' that He wished to 'convey' to His Creation, (you and I), to which Peter, ( to his credit), picked-up on, and 'got out of the boat!'

In Peter's case,....He simply had to accept the 'invitation' to 'come!' When the 'Word' came forth from Jesus' mouth, Peter literally had an 'open invitation' to 'get out of the boat.'It was 'faith', (exercised here by Peter), in His 'invitation to come', that caused Peter to be completely convinced that his God would 'not let him down!' He was totally persuaded that Jesus was not 'luring him over the side of the boat,....just to let him sink beneath the tumultuous waves!' Without him 'fully realizing it', Peter was placing something between the 'soles of his feet' and those treacherous waves, and that was the 'substance of faith' that I spoke of, earlier. 'Substantial faith' in the Word that he heard 'with his own ears' as Jesus invited him to 'come!' Thus,....we find that Peter had 'no problem getting out of the boat!'


Likewise, God is desperately endeavoring to 'lure each one of us' to 'get out of the boat,....and walk with Him,.....walk as He walked, in places where no else walks, or can walk!,.....walk over your problems/situations that formerly caused you to sink,.....follow in My footsteps and be victorious!


What I am about to say, here, will be 'radical to some', but I am convinced by the 'knowledge of my God', that when Jesus completed His 'walk on the water' and re-entered the boat you could have 'immediately examined the soles of His feet' and found that there was absolutely 'no water on them!'

Peter would have been 'totally dry, also' had he not experienced a 'short bout with doubt', causing him to 'begin to sink and cry out to be saved.'

This, further illustrates, the 'completeness of God's Work and Purpose!'

Not only does He desire, ( and 'will allow'), for His Creation to 'rise above and walk over, and upon, the many problems/situations of life that try to sink us all',....we find that He will 'even keep the residue off of us, likewise!'

BUT,.....for 'that', my dear friends,.....we will need to put 'substance' between our many problems/situations in life that are endeavoring to sink us,.....and that's 'faith with substance',......tangible faith,.....unswerving faith,.....in His 'unsinkable and reliable Word'.


2 Corinthians 5:7(KJV)

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)


God bless you 'all',..........kreagle

[Akasha]

I'd like to share an experience I had which I consider to be "spirit trumping matter", but first a bit of background. Between 1999 and 2003 I was intermittently detained (for a total period of 13 months) under section 3 of the UK mental health act over my behaviour due non-compliance of an anti-convulsant/mood-stabilising pharmaceutical called Epilim. I had been taking this drug to combat epilepsy since 1987 and in 1999 I decided to stop taking it to see if I had, in fact, grown out of the condition. Whilst not having any seizures, over the next 6 months I became increasingly manic to the point where I was eventually arrested and sectioned.

Whilst in the hospital I was given all manner of anti-psychotic medication until finally being put back on Epilim, resulting in my slow but steady stabilisation until some months later the section was lifted and I was allowed home. However in the 6 months of initially not taking the tablets prior to my first admission, I gained an insight into life without them which was infinitely preferable, even if the risk of seizures and temporary mania was part of the deal. So.....within months of coming out of the hospital I stopped the med's, felt great for a short period and then went crazy again! Because of my persistent desire to not be medicated, this cycle continued repeatedly until, by the summer 2003, I had been sectioned 7 times.

Obviously being banged up in the lock-up ward for over a year in total allowed much time for pondering my predicament. The consultant was adamant that I had bipolar affective disorder and that it was about time I started facing up to that reality but as someone who grew up in an overtly christian home, although now not a practising christian, I was still open to the notion of healing in light of the miracles attributed to Jesus. It was with this in mind that I started to go within, focusing on the New Testament references to love, and in particular the phrase "God is Love" which I decided I would take literally and in totality rather than your interpretation of it in previous posts, Star Mariner. I then expounded on that concept with basic reasoning and logic, taking it as far as my mind would go in every direction I could think of and always bearing in mind the K.I.S.S acronym (keep it simple, stupid).

I ended up coming to the conclusion that if what I was now contemplating was true, it could well be my escape route out of the psychiatric system for good. So I decided from that point on and to the best of my ability, to be motivated by love in all I did starting right there in the lock-up ward. As I'm sure you can imagine sharing a living space with 12-15 other people with severe psychiatric issues offered plenty of opportunities to carry this out......or not! To start with, with each situation I was faced with, I had to constantly ask myself how love would approach that situation and then try to act accordingly.

Within just a few days, the day nurses were miraculously going against the consultant's better judgement and allowing me to non-comply with the med's and I was still managing to maintain a non-manic state within myself. The night nurses however had the reputation for being more ruthless so I decided I would aim to avoid the night time med's by going to my bedroom and feigning sleep prior to the time they were due to be dished out. I figured they wouldn't wake some one up in order to sedate them again and I was right. So approximately 2 weeks later I had improved without medication to the point whereby I was transferred to the low security ward next door.

Now of course the above testimony could itself be described as spirit, or as I prefer, love trumping matter but the scenario that followed was, in my eyes, even more profound.

I was about to go to bed for the first night in the low security ward when the head nurse asked me to come and get my night time med's. Slightly shocked that he was unaware of my regime of non-compliance, I informed him that I had been refusing them in the lock-up ward without issue and with continued improvement to the point where I was now here! The nurse, ironically a self-confessed born again christian, informed me that he had no such information and that if I did not comply and take the Epilim I would be given Haloperidol intra-muscularly and by force if necessary. From several previous experiences of being c&r'd (control and restraint) and forcibly shot up with that stuff, I knew he was serious.

It's worth noting at this point that Haloperidol was then (and probably still is) the go-to emergency intra-muscular anti-psychotic in all psych' wards across the UK and my previous experiences with it had always been extremely unpleasant resulting in immediate acute anxiety coupled with heavy sedation and tardive dyskinesia.

With all this in mind I decided if I was to follow the path of love in this situation it would mean taking the shot without fear or judgement towards the nurse in question. After the injection I waited a few minutes, expecting the all too familiar dreaded waves of the drug to envelope me, but to my astonishment nothing happened! I waited a few more minutes......still no reaction. After an hour had passed, I was still feeling absolutely none of the symptoms. In all past experiences with this drug, it had seriously put me flat out, but now with this love based mindset I had managed to transmute it into something totally ineffectual.

Now obviously it wasn't walking on water but it was a profound paradigm busting experience for me and as I see it an example of love "trumping matter".
For the record, my notes were transferred the following day which then allowed my continual non-compliance of the med's resulting in me walking out of there for the last time completely drug free a couple of weeks later: an almost unheard of scenario within the UK psychiatric system.

[kreagle]

Akasha,

My dear friend, what a powerful and profound message you have, here! I really commend you, brother, for having the wisdom to 'turn to God' and the 'power of His love'. So many, today, turn totally in the opposite direction, trying everything 'but God's way', and with devastating results. But not you!,....and glory to God for that! The power of God is 'limitless' and our personal 'accomplishments through Him' have absolutely no boundaries,....'if' we put our trust in Him!


Philippians 4:13 (KJV)

13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.


I will be praying for you, brother, for your 'continued strength' and victorious results!


Your brother, friend, and servant,.........kreagle

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

That's a heck of a tale Akasha, I'm truly very sorry for the illness and suffering you endured here. You clambered out of a dark paradigm, with love as you ladder. Very inspiring, mate, and quite truly a very good example of love/light/God trumping all.

You also demonstrated one of the most empowering of all human virtues - strengthened within by that love - and that was bravery. What an effort it must have been to turn yourself around and get out of that situation! It is very sad that so many go into them and become 'institutionalized,' and never come out again. Surely even the sane would lose it in those psyche wards, and pumped full of horrible 'medication'. In severe cases I’m sure it supplies a necessary and merciful benefit to the patient, and some safety for the staff, but all the same there are brain-draining chemicals at work that do nothing to 'heal' the affliction in question.

The healing energy of Love got you out.

I sincerely hope that today you are perfectly well, my friend, in mind, body and spirit!

(one slight, and very off-topic thing, it was a bit difficult to read your last post Akasha as it was one long block of text. Splitting up the paragraphs with spaces makes it a lot easier on the eye. Thanks! )

Hey kreagle and thanks for your response, and putting right my misinterpretation. ‘Misinterpretation!’ That was a good example really of the foibles of our mental constructs (me in this case!), through which all inward stimulation and information is thereby filtered.

I misunderstood, my friend. I had really thought for a moment that you perceived the deed of walking on water was merely a metaphor… But I see now that you were alluding to a very enlightening, yet subtle, extra meaning! Deduced with great wisdom, and expertly expressed. I tip my hat, sir.

It is patently clear in your example, that yes, in lieu of the actual demonstration of this tremendous feat, illustrating to us backwards humans that Spirit can easily conquer the ‘matter’ in which our nuts-and-bolts world consists of, we are provided with another lesson which also shows us that with faith in the Power within us, distended through God-Source, we can rise above anything that stands in our way.

What I am about to say, here, will be 'radical to some', but I am convinced by the 'knowledge of my God', that when Jesus completed His 'walk on the water' and re-entered the boat you could have 'immediately examined the soles of His feet' and found that there was absolutely 'no water on them!'

I think you’re also quite right here. And I see nothing radical about it. In many ways you are correct in saying that ‘it is impossible to walk on water’, or any Newtonian fluid structure, because of the volume of water displaced by someone trying 'to walk on it' – just the simple laws of buoyancy at work. So there are two possibilities. Either some sort of transmutation, in which the water itself was changed at the molecular level to be something non-Newtonian (such as liquid of high viscosity), or more likely that Jesus simple floated – levitated just above the water level, giving the impression that he was walking on it. In this instance both his and Peter’s feet would have effectively remained dry..

[kreagle]

Star Mariner,

Let me say, first, how grateful I am to your 'thoughtful and loving' response to Akasha! There's a saying we use around our Church, ( in a good-natured way), that says, (....and I will 'paraphrase' for clarity),...."Akasha needs our prayers,....and we need the practise!!!' I have told him that I will certainly 'pray for him',......and I equally 'invite you to practise with me!'

So there are two possibilities. Either some sort of transmutation, in which the water itself was changed at the molecular level to be something non-Newtonian (such as liquid of high viscosity), or more likely that Jesus simple floated – levitated just above the water level, giving the impression that he was walking on it. In this instance both his and Peter’s feet would have effectively remained dry..

How about a 'third?' And 'this' is not just a 'possibility',.....but a 'reality!'

When Peter said,...."Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.",.... Jesus responded with 'one word',......'come'. I submit to you, Star Mariner, that it was at that 'precise moment' when He 'issued the invitation to come' that He literally 'threw out a life preserver' from His mouth, (the 'Word, come), to Peter! Not one to 'put around his waist',....but 'one to stand and walk upon!' That 'one Word,....come' was His Word,.....God's Word,......and when Peter allowed his faith to really gain some 'substance', he 'got out of the boat' and 'stood and walked upon the Word of God!' You can stand and walk upon the Word of God, my dear friend.

That's the 'substance' I've been talking about, my friend. A 'type of faith' that has 'real substance' by an 'unswerving belief and confidence' in God's Word. One you will 'stand upon' in the 'midst of a raging storm!'

And 'this type of faith' will 'keep you completely dry and on top of your problems/situations!'

I, personally, hear the Lord Jesus,......and He's still saying to us,......"Come!"


Your brother, friend, and servant,......kreagle

[Akasha]

Thanks for your thoughts, both of you. In answer to your question, Star Mariner, I've never been better........so definitely don't feel sorry. The whole thing was a game changer I couldn't be without................and if I ever write that much again I'll definitely take your advice and break it up a bit.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Akasha, very glad to hear this my friend. May it long continue!

Heya kreagle, and thanks for the response! I think what I was trying to do was bring a tangible aspect to the table in order to describe and thus fathom what physically ‘happened’ with this story of walking on water, what processes were actually at work. Because even when we talk about ‘the Divine’, it need not be mysterious, supernatural, or even immeasurable, because there is a tangible and rational process in everything.

If you can indulge me I really do need to speak to you about this, and anyone who would like to listen…

I preach nothing… please know I preach nothing. I am merely voicing, merely echoing the shapes and patterns of my own perception filters… But in doing so I want to open up a bit more about myself, my own personal beliefs – some in variance with religious doctrine – so you have a better understanding/grounding of where I am coming from for our future, continued discourse. Know that I speak with the best of intention, and only to ‘throw in my lot’ and submit the philosophy which my life has submitted to me. The following may not sit well with your own understanding. And that is absolutely ok. But there maybe something in the following which might ‘resonate’ with your truth, if you take a moment to consider these possibilities…

Because there are very important aspects here that need to be explored. If you take them on board, kreagle, my dear new friend, there might be a sliver of new insight which will serve to show a glimmer of an even more glorious revelation of God – the All-That-Is – than you already perceive. I myself search for new glimmers every day. They are there! There is still much to learn spiritually, and still so much to share between us spiritually, between all of us here at Avalon. If there was nothing more to it than the doctrines we already hold on to, none of us would be here!

Please bear with me (and I apologise for the length of the post) this is very important.

Posted by kreagle (here)
That 'one Word,....come' was His Word,.....God's Word,......and when Peter allowed his faith to really gain some 'substance', he 'got out of the boat' and 'stood and walked upon the Word of God!' You can stand and walk upon the Word of God, my dear friend.

Of the Walking on Water theme, and the ‘Word of God’, or of Jesus, which you explained, for me it can have no meaning or any substance at all unless there is a context at work. Let me explain.

Everything that happens, or can happen, in this Universe is decreed by Natural Law. It is a grave oversight in any religious or spiritual thinking to believe that everything we are and everything that we see in this wonderful world ‘simply is’ because God ‘simply says it is’. There are Laws that determine every single cause and effect, every action, reaction, and inter-action. Without such Laws the Universe would be chaos – actually just one enormous floating blob of disorganized quantum soup.

Physical Laws create order, but the Spirit creates purpose.

As just an example, picture the Universe, if you will, as one vast, breathing, and very living organism. God is the beating heart of this organism – the Universe. DNA determines the Natural Laws I speak of that makes it function. Spirit is the blood that moves from that central God-heart within and throughout it. We, us, our spirits, our individual souls, are merely the billions of blood cells adrift in this glorious circulation.

No one, not even Jesus Christ can break Natural Law, the DNA that regulates ‘what is’ and ‘what can be’, in this Universe. Everything he did can be defined by Natural Law. Not that we backward humans can possibly understand the subtleties and complexities of these Natural Laws. We comprehend many of the fundamentals now, as described by science and witnessed in technology. Many, very unfortunately, think that certain effects ‘that they cannot explain’ are magic. To a prehistoric man, radio is magic. Quantum physics is unexplainable even to the biggest names and greatest intellects in theoretical physics… it seems like magic. But it is not. The patterns of Law therein are yet to be unwoven.

What I’m trying to say, my friend, is that Jesus walking on water, or turning water into wine, was not commanded by ‘faith alone’, or a special word spoken at the right time… It seems a ‘miracle’ to our eyes because there is a process at work that we cannot understand. He used the Power of Spirit within him (and through him) not to simply and miraculously walk on the water, or appear to do so, but to ‘change something’ about his physicality, about reality, and it was completely in the confines of Natural Law.


Perhaps, one could surmise, that with the purification of the mind and the body, and through the power of thought alone, Jesus was able to harmonize the vibration of his entire being with his surroundings, and psychically levitate across the water. This is exactly what psychic phenomena is – using the power of thought which is consciousness which is spirit which IS God!!

And it is all perfectly within the confines of Natural Law. ‘God’ himself did not ‘come down’ and make it happen, Jesus made it happen with God already present; he needed only to summon the energetic skill required for this deed, and the natural capacity which was within him – in all of us – because Spirit can overpower matter. He knew this. And he showed this.

There is nothing either unnatural, immoral, or ungodly about this phenomena, because we see it in microcosm every day. A prayer in church is answered, the hands-on healing of the sick, even the 100 lb woman who lifts a car off a child who is trapped beneath it. It happens, with the Power within us, amplified I’m sure from higher forces Beyond, through God, but it happens every single day… psychic – thought… phenomena adheres normally and naturally in clockwork precision as decreed by pre-determined Natural Laws. But it is, unfortunately, not as simple as just ‘faith in God’, or a ‘word of command’; that you can literally ’walk on the word of God’. It takes a massive effort on your own part to energetically do something like this, and it usually only happens in extraordinary, sometimes life-and-death circumstances, that allow us to tap the hidden potential.

Think of a man dangling from a cliff by a slender rope. It’s a life and death situation. If he doesn’t expend energy, physical or mental – in will, determination, belief, then he’ll fall. That’s what happened to Peter. But Jesus still needed to be there as the facilitator, he was the rope that held him up, and Peter’s was the belief that permitted him to hold on to it. But we are just Homo Sapiens you and I, and not yet the perfectly evolved paradigm that Jesus was – biologically, mentally and spiritually (that we may call Homo Spiritualis), and as a matter of course we don’t have a rope to work with, not on a daily basis. In exceptional conditions we may just surprise ourselves, perhaps short of walking on water however, but who knows! I doubt that any amount of ‘faith’ would have helped Peter walk on water if he was by himself. Jesus had to be there to hold him up, perhaps rather tenuously and by a frail strand on Peter’s part. But he wavered, he fell in, because it all just seemed so impossible to his paradigm.

Jesus may be in your heart and mine, kreagle – and it is! But there is no amount of faith we can summon, or word of command we can ‘simply’ invoke that would allow us to walk on water. If there were, you and me could walk out upon the Atlantic ocean and meet in the middle right now! We can’t because we lack the cognitive/spiritual/ and even dimensional understanding that such a feat would take. But there are some Tibetan Yogis that can produce aspects of basic levitation. But Jesus could do far more besides, infinitely more, because he was quite probably the most advanced example of Human Being that has ever lived.

To some, no doubt, what I describe here in a tangible way can certainly be classified as Psychic Phenomena – or ‘occult science’. This the Bible will frown upon, and you too kreagle I’m sure. The phrase carries a negative connotation, which is a misconception, but there is a massive piece to the puzzle of understanding which is often overlooked and unspoken by canon. I’ll explain shortly why.

If it is an occult science, then Jesus was the master of them. He showed what was possible. You won’t of course find these Natural Laws precisely defined in his teachings. 1st century peasants (for the most part) would understand it no more than many of us would. It was entry-level education. In accordance with his word they needed only to trust in him, and believe in the Power of God, and in themselves, always, and to be good, loving beings, and do the right things. The precise workings of the Natural Laws Jesus demonstrated were of no importance to them (and even if they were, and Jesus cited them in detail, then of course certain authoritative powers saw fit very early on to omit them from scripture).

As to the missing pieces to the puzzle of understanding I spoke of, here’s a good candidate for where it can be sourced. I will quote from the Old Testament here, as listed in another post regarding channeling where the ‘aberration’ in occult sciences might well have originated:

Deuteronomy 18 (as written in my Bible)

10: There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Firstly this quote from Deuteronomy, long before Christianity, is part of the ancient teachings of Yahweh, and was meant in the main to re-educate the wayward Caananites and Phoenicians from their devotion to the Ammonite God Moloch, whose practises were deeply immersed in mysticism and indeed barbarism.

I am saying that my knowledge base, such as it currently stands, says that Yahweh was not the Christian God at all! I’m sure my friend you will have no inclination to accept that as true. But listen on. These far pre-Christian teachings have been massively distorted, and revised, to ‘fit’ in with the later New Testament – it serves a powerful purpose in orthodoxy insofar as it lays the groundwork for the New Covenant of the Christ that is prophesied to come…. But, Human history as far back as you can go is absolutely riddled with meddling ‘higher powers’ like Yahweh – extra-terrestrials trying I’m sure their very hardest to ‘educate mankind’, and bring him out of the darkness in accordance with their philosophies. The earliest myth-Gods and the various pagan pantheons were of the extra-terrestrial, and many such unfortunately masqueraded themselves as God. And in the name of God did some pretty bad things!! But none were God.

Some Christians seek only to generalize in the broadest possible sense by categorizing such God-beings as simply ‘fallen angels’, or ‘devils’ in disguise. Nay, and Nay! Fallen angels and their like ARE extra-terrestrials, in that they came down from the sky as sovereign beings just like ourselves, and though far advanced of us in philosophy and technology, were still flawed beings like ourselves. In myth, legend, traditions, prophecies, cave-art, and so many numerous ancient histories, in Europe (particularly Greece and Egypt), the Far East, and Meso-American cultures, they are everywhere. Believe it my good friend. Take a look. They are everywhere.

There is info here on this very forum which talks about ‘the Yahweh group’, and what they were up to. The true God has no need of hovering clouds on the mountain, or burning bushes, or damn techno devices like the Ark of the Covenant. All ET stuff mate! The Old Testament is full of it, page after page.

The true ‘God’ has never ‘come down’ to do this or to do that. That was (and to some to degree still is!) ET theatre. The true God has never ‘appeared’ to Man, never spoken to Man, and has certainly never ‘smitten’ a man like a Zeus-thunderbolt from Heaven. All that is ET manipulation and violence – spiritual violence in a very great sense! Yup Zeus wasn’t the true God either!

The only manifestation of the true Father-Source-God was in the shape of Jesus Christ – spoken, acted, and loved through – Jesus Christ.

And so of course Yahweh was highly motivated in manipulating its creed to insist that divination and certain occult practises be banned. That’s your Deuteronomy. Because it/they didn’t want the people to see past the very curtain that they themselves had raised!

Think of how many ‘Prophets’ listed in the Bible are otherwise thus guilty of ‘heresy’ – Jesus included, if Yahweh’s mandate was the Law? I’m sure there are many Christians who cannot help but feel there are numerous strange and uncomfortable ‘variations’ (dare I even say inconsistencies) quoted in the scriptures when you compare Yahweh with the Father of Jesus. In my belief – and I stress this quite strongly – in my personal belief the two are not the same at all. This is accentuated by another agency, which I touched on in a previous post, which describes:

There are multiple versions of the Biblical text, laid down by multiple individuals, decreed and re-ordered by multiple Ecumenical Councils – politicized, culturalized… diluted.

That other agency is Man. In light of the many squabblings over the ages in the interpretation and selection of Biblical apocrypha, there is a problem somewhere. And it is due to the amount of material in scripture that does not and cannot gel. That is because it is diluted with the self-interested ramblings of what Christians term false prophets, like Yahweh, who passed themselves off as God, and are today in the minds of many, still God. From here springs many of the distortions. Please my friend this is not blaspheme. The hearts of these ‘false prophets’ are not with God-truth, and are not with God-Love… Do you not see it? The OT is a tale of puppet-strings being moved from above, destruction, persecution, and war down below. As much as ‘trying’ to bestow human thought with virtuous ideals, these ETs were immersed also in material machinations, in politics and social engineering… and control! And no less so were the later bishops and Popes who drew up the canon!

There are false prophets still today, and there will be false prophets tomorrow – just as there were plenty yesterday. Yahweh was such a one… just another one of those flim-flam men. And if he said ‘I am the One God’, then he merely repeats what was said by Moloch, or any other of the flim-flams that came before it. And after it. There are plenty around today, just look around today! None of them act with true-love in their hearts. Because the true God is Love, and True-Love does not judge, True-Love does not terrorize, ruin, and smite. The True-God-Love never has, and never will.

Jesus Christ – One mouth, One truth, One love. Disregard everything else mate! including the OT!

That brings me back to these Natural Laws, and those things beyond what we currently understand of them which some call ‘occult sciences’. Not a word do I recall from Jesus that tells us divination etc should be banned. And of occult sciences there are both White polarities/applications and Dark, just like any other science! The dark… well that goes without saying. It is negative. But if anything like levitation, divination, psychic phenomenon etc – like walking on water – is at all possible it is because it’s perfectly natural and consistent with Natural Law, but should of course only be demonstrated with love and the very best of intentions, just as Jesus did. It is not evil.

In the first instance I follow that school of thought that insists that the Old Testament God is not the God of New Testament. The two ‘Gods’ (thus books) are utterly in opposition. Because one is God, the other is not. This I will always continue to believe. It is so patently clear. My interpretation of God is in line only with what JESUS alone revealed: that he is a God that loves; does not anger, does not judge, and does not Smite. And he is universal, and far more than the anthropomorphised God of the OT. Whatsoever ‘being’ the Old Testament God is, it is not the True God, and it is not my God. And I do not believe it is Jesus’s God either. And this conundrum is at the root of all biblical distortion, and all the divisions and false comprehensions that have ever, ever arisen over the last 2,000 years.

[long breath]

I’ve probably totally lost you with all this, and I am dearly sorry friend! But when I seek pick up the Bible, seeking the pure spiritual truth through the actual nitty-gritty of ‘truth-speaking / truth-teaching’ I need look only to that which is spoken through the mouth of Jesus Christ himself. Everything else is a disfigurement of human ego (or extra-terrestrials long ago, who, although they probably had the best of intentions, they ended up doing the right thing in the end – they packed up and left: mission not accomplished!).

If you have any response kreagle, I would love to hear from you. And I mean you, dear friend, rather than the recited (scripture) words of other men… even Jesus, on this matter – I would love to hear from you, your own thought and mind, and heart…

All the very best.

[kreagle]

Star Mariner,

If you have any response kreagle, I would love to hear from you. And I mean you, dear friend, rather than the recited (scripture) words of other men… even Jesus, on this matter – I would love to hear from you, your own thought and mind, and heart…

Brother, I have always enjoyed our many 'discourses', and I certainly hope to continue them in the foreseeable future. It almost appears, at this point, that a 'gauntlet of sorts' has been laid down, by the message you convey here. To your credit, I sense that you are seeking 'answers', and that you have allotted some 'room in your life' for these 'moments of truth to reside in. Interwoven in your 'many words of discourse', I have seen this 'willingness to listen', which is a great characteristic to have, but 'few' fail to give 'audience to. You have, shall we say, a 'way with words', and your 'intellectual ability' is second to none.

The 'ball appears to be in my court', now, and you are awaiting my 'return.'

The 'first thing I see', (and quite frankly it's one that bothers me, greatly), is whether you are going to allow this 'intellectual ability' to 'completely destroy you',.....or.......whether you will learn to 'harness' it so you can advance to the 'next level', or not! There is, ( believe it or not), something you can combine with that 'extraordinarily efficient intellectual ability' you possess.

I'm talking about the 'genuine' infilling of the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of God, Himself!

I'm talking about the 'same experience' the Apostles,....Mary, ( His mother),....His 'natural brothers and sisters,......and the rest of His followers, ( 120 in total), had when they 'listened and obeyed His commandment' to,......"tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."

I'm talking about the 'same experience' that went 'one step further', by filling '3000 additional souls', ( after the 'original 120'), for a 'grand total of 3,120 souls' on 'day-one of the birth of the New Testament Church', as outlined and described, in the Book of Acts, chapter one and two.

And,....I'm talking about the 'same experience', that 'I,...kreagle', likewise encountered and had as I found my own personal 'Upper Room' and experienced a duplication of what those 'early New Testament Church members' experienced, also!

Star Mariner,...on February 22, 1981,....I, too, was gloriously filled with the Holy Ghost, the actual Spirit of God, Himself. I had 'purposely' put myself in a position to 'believe upon Him, as the Scripture hath said',......and consequently 'out of my belly there began to flow rivers of living water!' ( John 7:37-39)

As with the 'experience of the 120',......I, too, began to 'speak in other tongues' (another language that I had never been taught and was unlearned in). It was, as Biblically described, a glorious event and 'beyond my wildest imagination', my dear friend! It completely changed me,....gave me 'real substance' to my life,.....and consequently, today, you and 'others' get a 'rare glimpse into the life' of someone who has been 'born again!'

Now, Star Mariner, I've taken the time to share this with you, and 'others', for one simple reason. (Please do not be offended in what I am about to say, brother!) I clearly see you 'struggling with truth', my friend, and whether you fully realize it, or not, you are trying to wrap your 'carnal mind, and thinking, around Spiritual matters!' Countless 'scores and scores' of individuals have travelled down this 'same pathway' of trying to utilize their 'intellectual ability' to figure out the 'Spiritual aspects and concepts of God', only for their pathway to wind up on a 'dead end', my dear friend.

Brother, at your request, you may have 'noticed' that I have 'significantly reduced' my normal usage of quoting the Scriptures. However, at this time, I find that it is 'imperative' that I use the following text.


1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Brother, I can talk and 'expound' to you 'all day and all night long',....I can 'summon up my greatest oratory skills, possible',.....I can talk to you, and 'others', with the 'tongue of an angel', and you'll 'never see it if you exclude the experience of being 'filled with the Holy Ghost!'

There is no 'discrepancy between the Old Testament and the New Testament', my friend!

And your going to need the 'experience of the Holy Ghost',...in order to 'fully' see, (understand), this!

Now, did I, kreagle, 'see, or understand, all of this to begin with?'

No,....and a 'thousand times, no',....so I 'started out with faith',....until I got there, myself,......'had my own personal experience in my Upper Room',.....and 'now',.....I see it 'clear as day!'

(important and 'crucial point': You'll notice that I simply stated 'I started out with faith'. This is what, quite frankly, scares me about 'you and others', because 'most' inevitably try to 'bypass' this crucial stage on their personal quest for truth. It cannot be done,....pure, plain, and simple! Don't allow your 'intellectualism dictate the terms to you', my dear friend, Star Mariner! Take charge over your 'intellectualism' and tell it to 'temporarily take a back seat and be quiet' while you give 'faith' a chance in your life! If you will listen to me, brother, this will be the most 'intellectually smart thing you've ever done in your life!' I personally 'guarantee it', as this piece of advice is backed up with the Word of God!)

Of course, everything that I've endeavored to say, here, is predicated on 'just how clearly do you want to see?'

John 16:13 (KJV)

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come

The 'other' issues you've brought up,.....(divination,....levitation,....channeling,.....psychic phenomenon......Yahweh not being God......'occult sciences', etc.), will 'clear themselves up rather nicely, and completely', if you'll listen to my advice, my dear, dear, friend!


And 'with that',.....I suppose the 'ball is back in your court!'

Instead of 'swatting it back',...I suggest that you might want to 'catch it in stride',....pause for a moment.....and 'ponder upon' the advise 'old kreagle' is giving you, my dear brother, and friend

I would love to hear from you, your own thought and mind, and heart…

From my 'mind and heart', these are my thoughts, especially for you,......I can only hope and pray that you will 'listen!' I would like for you to be able to 'see' what I see for the 'view is absolutely glorious!'


Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

[GloriousPoetry]

Check out Neville Goddard....his version of the bible always blows me away.....

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by kreagle (here)
From my 'mind and heart', these are my thoughts, especially for you,......I can only hope and pray that you will 'listen!' I would like for you to be able to 'see' what I see for the 'view is absolutely glorious!'

My friend I listen! I listen, I hear and I know truth, in all that I hear you say!

Thank you very much for the response kreagle. You know what, I know truly that the ‘Holy Ghost’ as you term it is in you, because whatever ‘discrepancies’ one may turn up in scripture, it doesn’t matter. I know it doesn’t matter, yet still, my mind is keen on discerning every facet I can uncover which relates to intellectual history, in all scripts and documents of the ancient past, so I can paint a truly detailed picture of what was, what is, and what yet shall be.

I do feel the same way as you, my friend. It doesn’t really matter at the end of the day. And the reason why it doesn’t matter? Because it takes nothing away from the glorious truths of Jesus, that both you and I share.

The Holy Ghost is in you. It is in me too. I may choose to call it something like Spiritual Light, or God-Truth or whatever language-term you want to use. But I know it, I see it, and I feel it! Don’t doubt it, my friend. Do not doubt it. Surely you can see the shape of it in my manner, my words thus far revealed in this thread. Yes here and there I steer on to intellectual tangents, lol, but that is only because there are intellectual issues as hand, as well as spiritual, that can reveal a deeper layer of reality and truth to that which we hold already.

I love mysteries, kreagle. Who does not? Mankind should never pass over a mystery and say ‘it is, because it is’. That is the path of ignorance. I am hungry for all knowledge, fascinated with all wisdom, and all the minutia contained or hidden in the obscure fabric of God-Universe. Mysteries must be solved. The rock overturned reveals the greatest prize! This is human nature, and has been since the very beginning. Stone tools would still rule the day if it was not.

I know, as do you, that the only place we can ultimately find Truth is within. But as a study, I am also interested in rationalising the without, for there outside of us is life, is other people, and the whole world in which we live. That journey of personal expansion, of penetrating the outer mystery, never ends.

On this matter, we shall vary, but again, it’s absolutely fine! Because – and I state this with heartfelt gladness – my heart is in the right place as is yours. I feel the love and the Power of Spirit and God within me. And I feel it within you as a bright and radiant warmth. And I know that intellectual concerns aren’t important to you mate, but for me there are questions, many questions still that have no answers.

Consider again the OT and NT ‘God’. Please consider these questions, kreagle my friend. Lay aside the indoctrination for but a moment, and consider the intellectual questions. Because, I submit the two together must ride hand in hand, for a man who has Spirit but no Wisdom can be duped, and thus many men have fallen into the trap of false worship.

Nahum 1

2: God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

Galatians 5

22-23: [The Spirit of God}… is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Galatians from the NT. That is my God, not this imposter God from the OT above. Can you claim otherwise?

Nahum 1 again

4: He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers

This is not God-work, unless a spiteful, wrathful God, and not the Farther of Jesus. I think this passage is purely the pre-intellectual rationalizations of early MAN, putting the forces of nature that he does not understand at the feet of a God he does not understand.

The Old God is a nasty piece of work. Check out: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../atrocity.html

Just rationalize for a moment this ‘God’… and the loving Father of Jesus.
The God of the OT and NT are not the same being, another indication being:

Exodus 33

11: And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

John 1

18: No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

And even this statement below in Romans that quotes the OT, but there is no such statement to be found in the OT, proving that splices, cuts, edits, and additions have occurred throughout history. Basically the Bible you hold in your hands is a different document than what it once was.

Romans 10

11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I am not trying to create any spoilage for you in your enjoyment of scripture, only pointing out that there is, in an academic sense, many grave discrepancies relating to the ‘varied’ teachings in the Bible. Because they have different sources. I choose to disregard that which does not emanate from Jesus Christ. You ask me to set aside the ‘intellectual’. I ask only that you set aside religious tradition, just for a moment, and perceive the questions herein.

I submit that for Christians what holds the Old Testament and the New together is the stubbornness of Tradition – Christian tradition that will not let go of the ancient Torah. The latter is an ancient Jewish tradition, that is perhaps as outmoded alongside NT scripture as, say, the ancient Greek legends; of their Gods and their spurious deeds.

I mean not to offend or disparage either you, any other Christian, or the Good Book, just to point out that ‘tradition’ is a very powerful yoke that serves only to keep us in bondage. Jesus spoke to many a Rabbi who heeded the ancient teachings, and with his wisdom put them to shame.

I aspire to bring us all people together, in Unified Understanding. That can be so simply done by seeing the truth of the teachings of JESUS, and feeling the Power of God in your Heart. And there is a special Purity to be witnessed, perhaps hitherto unseen, by letting go of all the religious framework – the traditions – that weigh it down. Let them tumble I say; cast off the shackles of an ancient world long since passed away… and listen to the truth of Jesus’s words.

…Which you do! Which so many of us do. But the stalwart blinkers of folklore, and institution, so set in its way, shades us from so much more wisdom that is ours for the taking!

I will do some quoting of my own now! Consider this, now what I tell you. Another Good Book! And one close to my heart, that brings a new teaching, and new perspective, of Jesus Christ. It is not of the Bible, but see this now, and tell me this is false.

Kreagle, expand your teachings, and embrace a new paradigm! Add these to your scriptural collections! Please read these, only that I ask. Read them all, and tell me that they are not truth!

Some of my favourite lines from The Aquarian Gospel, some of them variants of what you might already be familiar with :

CHP 8, Verse 23:

The David of the light is Purity, who slays the strong Goliath of the dark, and seats the saviour, Love, on the throne.

CHP 22, Verse 27:

And Jesus said, Salvation is a ladder reaching from the heart of man to the heart of God.

CHP 25, Verse 26:

Just live as you would have your brother live, unfold each day as does the flower; for earth is yours, and heaven is yours, and God will bring you to your own.

CHP 40, Verse 7:

Jesus said, it matters not where men abide, on mountain top, in deepest vale, in marts of trade, or in the quiet home; they may at once, at any time, fling wide the door, and find the Silence, find the house of God; it is within the soul.

CHP 44, Verse 23:

This Holy Breath knocks at the door of every soul, but cannot enter in until the will of man throws wide the door.

CHP 155, Verse 16:

Death does not mean the end of life. The grave is not the goal of men, no more than the earth is the goal of seeds.

Love and Light to us all!

[Akasha]

Dear Kreagle, thanks for sharing your experience of "speaking in other tongues". I trust and hope that, as with the linguistic miracle that happened during Pentecost, others of a foreign persuasion were able to appreciate your words in their mother tongue, rather than the vocal nonsense that has been taking place in pentecostal churches since the 1960s.

Acts 2. 5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[b] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” (NIV)

[kreagle]

Star Mariner,

Before I attempt any answer to your latest post I would like to have a 'little more clarity', my friend.

Some of my favourite lines from The Aquarian Gospel, some of them variants of what you might already be familiar with :

CHP 8, Verse 23:

The David of the light is Purity, who slays the strong Goliath of the dark, and seats the saviour, Love, on the throne.
CHP 22, Verse 27:

And Jesus said, Salvation is a ladder reaching from the heart of man to the heart of God.
CHP 25, Verse 26:

Just live as you would have your brother live, unfold each day as does the flower; for earth is yours, and heaven is yours, and God will bring you to your own.
CHP 40, Verse 7:

Jesus said, it matters not where men abide, on mountain top, in deepest vale, in marts of trade, or in the quiet home; they may at once, at any time, fling wide the door, and find the Silence, find the house of God; it is within the soul.
CHP 44, Verse 23:

This Holy Breath knocks at the door of every soul, but cannot enter in until the will of man throws wide the door.
CHP 155, Verse 16:

Death does not mean the end of life. The grave is not the goal of men, no more than the earth is the goal of seeds.

Do you 'ascribe to the Aquarian Gospel', or are you a 'member' of this group? If not, do you ascribe, or adhere, to 'any' particular 'doctrines, dogma, etc.' from any particular group/denomination? The following should 'clear up' why I am asking this particular question.

The simple reason I ask for 'further clarity' is because I have 'twice' fallen into my 'own trap' of 'assuming something', only to be told later that I was 'completely wrong.' In 'one example' a young lady, here on Avalon, went to great lengths to 'prove her point', (on another thread), and the 'supporting documentation' she used was laced with 'atheism content, complete with a picture of it's atheistic leader'. Even after I specifically asked her for a simple 'yes,....or......not', ( about being or not being an atheist), on '3 separate occasions', she continued to basically 'evade the question'. The 'next example' had an individual doing the 'same thing', (on this thread), only this time in support of Buddhism. Even this was in light of the 'fact' the 'spiritual leader he followed', herself, adhered to the 'Buddhism beliefs and concepts'. I consequently was chastised for 'going with the obvious', and was told I was completely wrong. ( Go figure than one out!)

For 'this reason', it would be very 'helpful to know' exactly where you are 'coming from',.....and I certainly want to 'avoid any further misunderstandings!'

And I must 'remind you' that the OP, ( 'originally',...and specifically with a 'follow-up' addendum), states that this is 'not the place for a debate'. Let me further state, that our discourses, up to this point, have been 'very cordial and respectful', to which I, once again, salute you with 'much admiration!' I really, really, mean that!


Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

[kreagle]

Posted by Akasha (here)
Dear Kreagle, thanks for sharing your experience of "speaking in other tongues". I trust and hope that, as with the linguistic miracle that happened during Pentecost, others of a foreign persuasion were able to appreciate your words in their mother tongue, rather than the vocal nonsense that has been taking place in pentecostal churches since the 1960s.

Acts 2. 5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[b] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” (NIV)

Akasha,

You are correct, my friend, in that when the Holy Ghost was 'originally poured out', on the Day of Pentecost, there was 'at least 16 different nationalities of Jewish, and/or converts to Judaism, who were 'present' and 'heard them speaking' in their respective 'native tongues' and not in the Galilean dialect that they were 'learned in". They fully understood what they were saying at the 'moment of being Spirit-filled'.

One must remember, this was the 'first time' that God had imparted and 'poured out His Spirit, on humanity'. As such, He certainly wanted to make sure that everyone who was present that day, clearly knew what they were 'seeing and hearing' on that spiritually fateful day. Even today, there have been 'many occasions' where someone else was present to 'hear and understand', exactly, what was being spoken by the 'newborn believer', at the moment they were Spirit filled. However, it has not always been the case, ( nor is it today), that there just 'happened to be someone around who could understand' what the 'newborn believer was saying in their 'native tongue'. We see that, here, in the case of the ' 12 disciples of John the Baptist, ( all Jewish brethren), who were baptized in Jesus' name, filled with the Holy Ghost, and likewise 'also' began to 'speak in other tongues'. The only ones who were present for this 'glorious event' were 'themselves, besides the Apostle Paul, also.


Acts 19:1-7 (KJV)

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.


In agreement to what you are bringing out, Akasha,........are there accounts, today, where the 'speaking in tongues phenomenon is being misused?' To that I would have to say, undoubtedly,..... yes. They also did this in 'some of the early churches', ( especially some in Corinth), and consequently the violators were 'scolded and corrected by the Apostle Paul' for doing so. This 'gift from God' is just like anything else that 'comes from God and meant to be Holy and used correctly'. Satan, and his minions, have always been around to 'muddy the waters', and to 'attempt to pollute' anything as pure as the 'gift of being filled with the Holy Ghost', actually is. If he is able to cast just a 'glimmer of doubt' on the validity of someone experiencing, and/or observing someone receiving the Holy Ghost,....then he has accomplished his mission. Sadly, he has been able to do 'just that' in the minds and hearts of many today!

But God shall not be 'mocked',...and 'genuine new births' are being recorded, daily, to and for, the Glory of God!

post update......

Dear Kreagle, thanks for sharing your experience of "speaking in other tongues".

Brother, I fully understand the 'intent of your comment',....but in reality I 'shared my experience of being filled with the Holy Ghost',.....which accompanied me 'speaking in other tongues', as the Spirit gave the utterance, signifying that I had, indeed, been Spirit-filled! The 'evidence', ( speaking in other tongues),....should never override the 'experience', ( of being filled with the Holy Ghost ). But, the 'experience',.....and the 'evidence',....go hand-in-hand, brother, in that you can't have 'one', without having the 'other', my dear friend!


Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

[Akasha]

Thanks for that Kreagle, but I'm unable to see a definitive answer to my question in your last post. It's clear that in the first account of "speaking in tongues", that ability was given in order to share the gospel with people present in the vicinity who spoke foreign (but very real) languages. I would say that from that account, it is fair to extrapolate that in the Acts 19.6 reference, Paul was descibing "tongues" in the same way he did before. After all, first century Corinth was a very cosmopolitan town so this linguistic gift would, again, have been of great benefit in the spreading of the gospel in that region.

I feel that the modern day pentecostal movement's interpretation of "speaking in tongues" and claiming it as evidence of an outpouring of the spirit only serves to misrepresent the spirit and more importantly dis-empower the individual by creating the illusion that something has happened when in fact it hasn't.
It could even be regarded as blasphemy against the holy spirit and we know where that leads (mark 3.29) and rightly so, because if one is under the illusion they are not in "sin", how can they be forgiven?

I should point out that I don't, as a rule, subscribe to the Bible although there is plenty within it that does resonate with me. That said, I'm with Star Mariner with regard to the OT impostor god. Vengeance and Jealousy are very clear symptoms of fear (lack of love) and are forever irreconcilable with love. To unite the god of the old and new testament, I would have to conclude that he was an acute schizophrenic (and I'd know).
I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on how you manage to conclude that:

"There is no 'discrepancy between the Old Testament and the New Testament', my friend!

And your going to need the 'experience of the Holy Ghost',...in order to 'fully' see, (understand), this!" ...........

.........afterall, your experience of the "Holy Ghost" should have imparted discernment to you in order that you share it with others.

I hope this doesn't all sound too confrontational, Kreagle, but if you allow yourself to be questioned on the Bible within the Avalon forum, it may well lead to some challenging impasses.

[kreagle]

Akasha,

I can assure you that an 'answer to your questions' is forthcoming, my friend. Unfortunately, it is 4:35 a.m. in my part of the world, right now. I don't know why I stay up so late,....but I'm going to have to get a little 'shut eye'. I can barely keep my eyes open right now.

Good evening, and God Bless,.........kreagle

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by kreagle (here)
Do you 'ascribe to the Aquarian Gospel', or are you a 'member' of this group? If not, do you ascribe, or adhere, to 'any' particular 'doctrines, dogma, etc.' from any particular group/denomination? The following should 'clear up' why I am asking this particular question.

Hello kreagle my friend, first to answer your question post-haste, I am not part of a church, or a cult, or a group of any kind. If there is a group for the Aquarian Gospel then I don’t know about it, and would have no interest in knowing about it.

If I was to say I subscribed to any group at all it would be a group of one – ’me’. I carve a solitary path for myself, as best as I can in the steps of Christ. Plain and simple.

I am sorry to hear of your experience in another thread. I come neither to indoctrinate anything, or to ‘un’-doctrinate, if that makes sense. If I have come over heavily in places I am very sorry. Truly I am. Those who are blessed with a truth in their hearts are susceptible to zealousness, one of the very trappings I myself disapprove of!

The truth that you know is not unlike my own truth at all. If you could picture it as a tangible thing the two would share the same mass (the intense self-knowledge of Truth), but a slightly different shape. That is all.

I proceed from this dictum: the teachings of Jesus as they were in their most original Biblical form are true, yet they are ‘ornamented’ with other peripheral stories and materials. Much of those are steeped in ancient Judaistic mysticism. I do not mean to disparage Judaism, the tribulations of the Jewish people, or the rich tapestry of history that stretches back far beyond Christianity. But Jesus sought to steer away from those traditions, to liberate the people from the dogma by which they had been oppressed by the priesthood.

New religions, as they are shaped, do have a habit of absorbing the old ones they replace. Come to Europe my friend, in every country the various Christian orthodoxies here are absolutely teeming with old pagan remnants – cultural and mythological traditions that had to be assimilated into the whole for the comfort of the people of those times.

This happened also at the very beginnings of Christianity, in Israel, in Rome very much so, and right across the Mediterranean lands.

And that was done by imperfect Men. Jesus teaches us that ‘power’ is illusion, it corrupts men’s hearts. And when the Word of Jesus began to sweep the world ’Men’ did all that they could to ‘Control’ it, and hold on to ‘Power’. The old priesthoods of Control fell down, and new Christian priesthoods of Control rose up. With little difference between them.

Only this you need know: the teachings of Jesus is the way it is. He lays down the Laws of spiritual truth. Nonetheless, when you consider the Bible as a whole it is a highly inconsistent – at least incomplete – account, because it was transcribed and compiled by Man. And when Man stands as intermediary to God, it is as a perfect beam of light cast through a frosted window.

Jesus himself said it well, when he perceived clearly what truly sat in the heart of the early movers and shakers of the spiritual and political world:

Matt23

27-28: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

He would say exactly the same of the many spiritual and political movers and shakers today. I very much doubt you’d disagree!

It is no different with ‘New Age’ people either, who likewise scatter what was a perfect beam of God-Light by way of the imperfect mental-social-ego lens of the Human Being. Not that it’s their fault! That’s just the way we are! So caution is always advised. But we go forth always with encouragement, because we cannot help but hear the door when the truth comes knocking,

I am sorry my friend to come over all cynical. But ‘the Church is not for me’. There are Churches and Denominations and Interpretations, because that is Man at work whose ego dictates that he must control information to control the people, and in doing so garner great wealth! Consider how many ‘Men’, over a period of 2,000 years, has stood between the Jesus that lived, and the words you read of him today. Consider also the fabulous riches stored at the Vatican, whose collected wealth could feed a starving world. But it is spent on ornaments, artwork, and lavish decoration. It is hoarded by greedy men with greedy hearts. Abuse and paedophilia as well? I don't want to go there. But this is the reality of which I speak when the Church is an imperfect, in fact, dreadfully flawed ‘intermediary’ for God.

I don’t half wish Jesus himself had put to pen to paper and been the author of gospel himself. Think of that my brother! Wouldn’t that have been wonderful! What man would dare interfere then, or attempt to edit or politicize what was written?

I have no choice but to accept the reality we are faced with, and accept there is more to the real Biblical account than what was presented to us by the church ‘authorities’ centuries ago.

For me in the path I walk I am gladdened by my freedom. Because doctrine and tradition does not bind me to doctrine and tradition. I am free to explore and expand my horizons. And I say he who shuns a possibility just because it sits ill-at-ease in his understanding denies himself the prospect of new insight.

The Bible does not serve as an end for me, but a sling-shot into ever greater truth and understanding. This is where I am coming from my friend, and I would love it if you hitched a ride with me! Never shall you be sundered from the Light of God, or from Jesus who perished for the salvation of Mankind’s folly… and the redemption of our souls. It can, possibly, bring you even nearer.

Because I look around and I see new materials, new ideas, and new philosophies which aspire to augment the knowledge I have already gathered.

And what I have found in the New Age has done nothing at all to either detract or diminish the words of Jesus; in fact they are corroborated, and many times amplified.

Hold Jesus in your heart. But lay aside the trappings of dogma, and search for yourself. So to answer your original question, all this is where I am coming from my friend.

[Cristian]

Posted by kreagle (here)
And I must 'remind you' that the OP, ( 'originally',...and specifically with a 'follow-up' addendum), states that this is 'not the place for a debate'. Let me further state, that our discourses, up to this point, have been 'very cordial and respectful', to which I, once again, salute you with 'much admiration!' I really, really, mean that!

Hi kreagle,

How can you have a thread on a FORUM where you ask people not to debate? Isnt the whole forum idea, from ancient Rome , by definition a place to debate?
I respect you for sharing your views, I think you are doing a great thing, and the Bible does have a lot of wisdom for all of us.
But, every time someone takes things a bit further, every time they want you to step into their world and imagination...you refuse.
You dont have to agree...but you can go with the flow and see where that goes. Just out of curiosity...

[mojo]

Good day...I have a topic I would love to have others discuss. Early in my sighting event I wanted to share UFO observations in confidence with someone so I chose a Pastor that I respected. What ended up was a little surprising. He told me to drop it and not put my energy into it. He felt as most Christians feel, that UFO's and ET's are negative. Researchers like L.A. Marzulli, Gary Bates, and Tom Horn seem to agree on this belief as well. There is a very short list of Christian researchers that believe otherwise. Gary Stearman's UFO encounter posted below is in stark contrast. Anyway, it might helpful to hear feedback.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=bxbMFG5r_f4

[Cidersomerset]

Well Mojo I did not think I would end up on this thread. It sounds like a straight forward ET encounter with missing time.

Whether the encounter was because the ET's monitoring him realised the craft was malfunctioning and performed a mercy

mission or some other reason, it is being interpretated as an act of God. Just what the Plejarens are afraid of...LOL...

Interresting story anyway, however you want to interprate it...Cheers Steve..


P.S...I just realised what I said a straight forward missing time event......Theres nothing
straight forward about that! I must have been logged on to long !!..LOL..