Here and Now...What's Happening?

[araucaria]

Yes, Flash. So much commerce (economic and otherwise) in today’s world is being conducted in inadequately mastered foreign languages, mostly pidgin English. The imperialist will always say ‘You will understand me’, not the other way round. Hence any complex thought disappears, to be replaced by the magical, authoritarian properties of ‘And’.

The vogue for this conjunction dates back to the translation of the Bible and the Book of Genesis. Pure story-telling: no whats or whys or hows or whens. And God did this. (dot) And God said that. (dot) And Man thought, Wow! And God said do this and do that. And Man just did what he was told.

Then closer to home: And a plane came along and hit WTC1. (dot) And WTC1 was destroyed. (dot) And before anyone could say ‘This has never happened before’, corroboration came. And another plane came along and hit WTC2. (dot) And WTC2 was destroyed. (dot) And so on and so forth. Until someone said, ‘Let’s join some of those dots.’

We need to be smarter because things are complicated, more so than they seem when we listen to people trying to pull the wool over our eyes. ‘Not so fast’ is a good motto to slow down all these salesmen saying ‘Hurry up, for tomorrow (or Dec 21st) will be too late’. Reading the fine print is time well spent.

[ulli]

So how about this for language use:
I love you, araucaria...slobber, slobber

[Carmody]

Posted by Flash (here)

For example, an Eastern European will try to raise arguments and go deep in the argumenting mode because, culturally, it is not only accepted but also a sign of intelligence and intellectual pursuit and pleasurable. I call it argumenting for the sake of argumentation. I often, as a North American (but French speaking Quebecer), see no pleasure nor use for it. So I think that their behavior is gross and direspectful. They think I am a stupid thinker. Well, I have learned to see the real situation without judging, but for most, it is difficult to comprehend (on both sides). I have seen this situation again and again and again in many different cultural encounters, Montreal being a melting pot of the whole planet, and having lived and worked in at least 3 countries, and work in a fourth one as well.

Culture plus language has a huge impact on thinking and writing. Another example I truly do not understand the obligation of wearing arms for American. To me, and to most Canadians and to most Europeans, this is incredible, we would even say, some of us, violent behavior. I came, however, throught exchanges, to understand the logic beneath it viewed from an American point of view. Therefore no more judgment. It is like that for lots of things, sexual contexts, religious thinkings, nationalistic tinted views, `family life understanding, relationships, etc. The cultural differences are just vast. And add to this the individual differences, you see...

This is why acceptance and reworking broken relationships is so important worlwide. This is why relationships are so easy to brake. Across languages and cultures, tolerance is a must, reworking a necessity. In my views.

Thanks for that. A close friend is eastern European. his argumentative side can be very wearing, to say the least. To add, he is a champion debater, in his youth. He is also of incredibly fast mind, with capacity to speak on multiple subjects simultaneously, with depth and authority. He is a Gemini, I remind him. It's his lot in life. 'No', he says, 'I was born under the sign of the spider'. 'That much is obvious', I tell him. (there is a whole thing of the spider sign being a hoax, so don't worry about it)

when I ran into him, he was the first person I had met, that offered any challenge to my mind, in over 15 years. Thus I woke myself from a self induced stupor, in order to address this 'call to the game'. (do I hear an invitation to the dance?) (I had been bored with life in all wearing, repetitious, and meaningless bits... and had simply shut myself down into an automaton.)

[donk]

Man this thread moves fast....so the village been happy these last 20+ pages? What'd I miss?


"...Remember that I love you..."

.......let's all hold hands around the campfire and sing:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=3i549b6Ovl0

Remember, like Kimya says: YOUR THOUGHTS AND WORDS ARE POWERFUL!!!

[Belle]

Morning, All!

Had to dash yesterday to babysit my 3 year old grandson while my daughter is completing her degree..quick reheat of veggie chili for dinner...and off to a rehearsal.

Hope you don't mind if I do a little cleaning up after the mess I made in the Village.

ulli, thank you so much for the advice on integrating my inner bitch (I call her Bertha...yes, I named her) and she thanks you for the hug. No signs of Meryl in you, so it must work. I've been trying to be like an eagle and 'soar above' the scorpio tendencies. Big Bertha had other plans and would come out when she wanted, reach up and go for a ride. So much for 'soaring above'.

About you being intimidating? No way. You are gracious, warm and kind...people just need to get over their own projections and fears, and approach with openness.

Carmody, loved your posts about fire sale...very timely.

Life is messy. We all carry inner crap, as well as the tendency to hide it from others. Why? Is it fear? Shame? I've been told irl that when I speak to people, I'm intimidating because of 'the way I look them in the eye, like I could see all the hidden places within them', making them squirm and feel uncomfortable. But we're all flawed. We all have trauma and shadows. We all really can see, on an unconscious level perhaps, each other as we really are and not as we desire to appear to others...not telepathy exactly, but it is as tho' we are playing a game of hide and seek with ourselves and others. Can't seem to find the words to explain it better. All that is hidden is known...it can be found in the stream...all of it.

Anyway, back to cleaning up my mess. Bertha comes out to play when she gets tired of me unconsciously reacting to things that need fixing. Unfortunately, she tends create a very public display, and she will pester me with the incident over and over until there is no way I can avoid dealing with it...it's like a big ole red pimple on the tip of your nose...can't be missed, can't be hidden. And once self-examination takes place, acknowledging it out in the open prevents me from attempting to hide it again. Oh sure, there is still a lot of processing to be done to clear out the rest of the debris, but that is nothing once I get over the initial discomfort of airing out my laundry for all to see. But we all have dirty laundry...why fear others seeing it?

I have such deep gratitude to so many Villagers (you know who you are) for their kindness, understanding, encouraging words, support and help through this...and accepting me, dirty laundry and all.

Love you all.

[AriG]

Grey and balmy here. Bucolic. A sharp contrast to the challenges that await us.

Visited with sisters in Astral. Cleansed. Spirit bells and kundalini in my spirit house. I didn't recognize them at first as I awakened beside them. It had been too long.

[RunningDeer]

Posted by Sierra (here)

Posted by araucaria (here)
It would have been useful to have given one or two examples. One possible source of confusion in language is pronouns. For example what does ‘it’ refer back to? Often there will be more than one possibility. French has two words for ‘it’, ‘il’ or ‘elle’, depending on the gender of the noun, so the language is naturally clearer, but also more comfortable with phrases like ‘the former’ and ‘the latter’, which are clumsy in English. Legal texts have to find other ways, but normal English will often simply tolerate a degree of ambiguity and hope for the best.

My mother drove me mad with her ambiguous "it" and "its". After many years, I came to the conclusion that in life, she was sloppy on purpose, to avoid taking responsibility, and that avoidance, came out in her language.

Posted by araucaria (here)
Another area is the use of conjunctions and linking phrases. English isn’t keen on ‘thus’, ‘therefore’, ‘indeed’, ‘however’ etc. if it can get away with just a few ‘ands’ and ‘buts’. French is uncomfortable without such link words, and can sometimes seem pedantic because of this. Typically, for this and others reasons, the wordcount will be 10% higher. The thing is that conjunctions are useful signals for the reader as he or she navigates through a piece of writing. Moreover, they are also useful signals for writers working out what they want to say. They don’t always really know

And 'moreover'.
That leaped out at me, after reading the above lol.

Posted by araucaria (here)
Similarly, the notions I discussed above are to be seen as part of a circuit diagram for language – harmless enough until you plug it in to an ungrounded power supply of emotions and other uncontrolled states of mind. Just throw that switch and sparks may fly!

Uncontrolled states of mind. Fascinating phrase.

Posted by Sierra (here)
My mother drove me mad with her ambiguous "it" and "its". After many years, I came to the conclusion that in life, she was sloppy on purpose, to avoid taking responsibility, and that avoidance, came out in her language.

Oh, THANK YOU! "she was sloppy on purpose" How simple. You've just helped me connect lots and lots of dots! I know people that do that and dismissed what my gut said. I've got siblings that only use this communication style. It's exhausting to be around them.

And my boss played that game, too. I always felt like he was covering his a$$.

And thank you, too, Araucaria, for the post starter (or is it starter post? Ha!).

OMG - So many more people come to mind! Anger and relief and now judgement and now laughing with joy that I feel so empowered. I might just call them out on it now that I have the words..."sloppy on purpose".

Love, love, love!
Pauler

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Flash (here)
It is very difficult to explain to a unilingual person what the different thinking frames are when using a different language. Often, while trying to explain the complexity and precision of the French language to English speaking people, I will get an answer such as "what are you talking about, English is very complex, we have X verbs, Y nouns, a grammar that does a b c, etc), I would never have such an answer from a multilingual person. It is just, plainly, different ways of thinking, with its advantages and disadvantages. But it definitely is another model of the world. More languages one knows, more complex understanding one can have with the written language and mostly, more induction/deduction one may make from a badly written text in order to come to understand it.

A delightful discussion, araucaria and Flash. Thanks.

I suspect I see a bit of this in computer programming languages as well ... but they are much less subtle than human languages, and besides I should spare this audience any geeky monologues on computer languages. They are different however, leading to different ways of perceiving problems, and hence different solutions.

I'd like to imagine that there is a common (and diverse in similar ways, across the planet) human element beneath the veneer of language and social custom, rather as there is beneath the veneer of choices of clothing. Perhaps we humans are getting better at noticing the shared awarenesses, beneath the multitudinous veneers of language and custom. We don't need to abandon or squash the differences; which are part of humanity's essential strength. Rather we can take delight in the distinctions, as between red and yellow roses, while at the same time and an other level, sharing our common awareness and unique perspectives.

The Web is having a major impact here. My father went off to fight World War II in the Pacific with an image of the Japanese rather like I have of cockroaches. Such rampant national bigotry seems much harder to instill in those who have spent much time on the web, working side by side with people from all over this planet. A decade ago, I too could hold such bigotry, against those I "knew" caused 9/11. That's shifted, now that I've spent the last decade working mostly in broad international contexts on the Web.

If this is happening to enough of us humans, it must be rather frustrating to the bastards in power ...

[ulli]

Posted by Carmody (here)

Posted by Flash (here)

For example, an Eastern European will try to raise arguments and go deep in the argumenting mode because, culturally, it is not only accepted but also a sign of intelligence and intellectual pursuit and pleasurable. I call it argumenting for the sake of argumentation. I often, as a North American (but French speaking Quebecer), see no pleasure nor use for it. So I think that their behavior is gross and direspectful. They think I am a stupid thinker. Well, I have learned to see the real situation without judging, but for most, it is difficult to comprehend (on both sides). I have seen this situation again and again and again in many different cultural encounters, Montreal being a melting pot of the whole planet, and having lived and worked in at least 3 countries, and work in a fourth one as well.

Culture plus language has a huge impact on thinking and writing. Another example I truly do not understand the obligation of wearing arms for American. To me, and to most Canadians and to most Europeans, this is incredible, we would even say, some of us, violent behavior. I came, however, throught exchanges, to understand the logic beneath it viewed from an American point of view. Therefore no more judgment. It is like that for lots of things, sexual contexts, religious thinkings, nationalistic tinted views, `family life understanding, relationships, etc. The cultural differences are just vast. And add to this the individual differences, you see...

This is why acceptance and reworking broken relationships is so important worlwide. This is why relationships are so easy to brake. Across languages and cultures, tolerance is a must, reworking a necessity. In my views.

Thanks for that. A close friend is eastern European. his argumentative side can be very wearing, to say the least. To add, he is a champion debater, in his youth. He is also of incredibly fast mind, with capacity to speak on multiple subjects simultaneously, with depth and authority. He is a Gemini, I remind him. It's his lot in life. 'No', he says, 'I was born under the sign of the spider'. 'That much is obvious', I tell him. (there is a whole thing of the spider sign being a hoax, so don't worry about it)

when I ran into him, he was the first person I had met, that offered any challenge to my mind, in over 15 years. Thus I woke myself from a self induced stupor, in order to address this 'call to the game'. (do I hear an invitation to the dance?) (I had been bored with life in all wearing, repetitious, and meaningless bits... and had simply shut myself down into an automaton.)

Ah, finally someone asked me to dance...But to which tune????

[Flash]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by Flash (here)
It is very difficult to explain to a unilingual person what the different thinking frames are when using a different language. Often, while trying to explain the complexity and precision of the French language to English speaking people, I will get an answer such as "what are you talking about, English is very complex, we have X verbs, Y nouns, a grammar that does a b c, etc), I would never have such an answer from a multilingual person. It is just, plainly, different ways of thinking, with its advantages and disadvantages. But it definitely is another model of the world. More languages one knows, more complex understanding one can have with the written language and mostly, more induction/deduction one may make from a badly written text in order to come to understand it.

A delightful discussion, araucaria and Flash. Thanks.

I suspect I see a bit of this in computer programming languages as well ... but they are much less subtle than human languages, and besides I should spare this audience any geeky monologues on computer languages. They are different however, leading to different ways of perceiving problems, and hence different solutions.

I'd like to imagine that there is a common (and diverse in similar ways, across the planet) human element beneath the veneer of language and social custom, rather as there is beneath the veneer of choices of clothing. Perhaps we humans are getting better at noticing the shared awarenesses, beneath the multitudinous veneers of language and custom. We don't need to abandon or squash the differences; which are part of humanity's essential strength. Rather we can take delight in the distinctions, as between red and yellow roses, while at the same time and an other level, sharing our common awareness and unique perspectives.

The Web is having a major impact here. My father went off to fight World War II in the Pacific with an image of the Japanese rather like I have of cockroaches. Such rampant national bigotry seems much harder to instill in those who have spent much time on the web, working side by side with people from all over this planet. A decade ago, I too could hold such bigotry, against those I "knew" caused 9/11. That's shifted, now that I've spent the last decade working mostly in broad international contexts on the Web.

If this is happening to enough of us humans, it must be rather frustrating to the bastards in power ...

Your comparison with computer languages is right (less subtile may be, but in the same directions). Multiply the complexities by 10 with I don't know how many exponents for human languages.

This is why tolerance and constant reworking (or repairs) is necessary. We just can't imagine how much tolerance is needed.

As for as for the common underneath things, yes there are, but not as many as we would wish or think, when taking all together the individual, collective, cultural, language, etc differences. We are all biochemical quantum electric beings as much as my cat. Most of us have access to an emotional range (more than my cat), and most of us are on a spiritual path (don't know for my cat), as little as it may be. When we respond to these, we respond to human mammals plus little bit of other things. This is it my friend. We pass hours responding to the biochemical organism (including emotional hormonal production plus tribal relations) and almost nothing for the rest. So most of us are unaware of the rest (beyond the language, cultural, and other biaises) which is where the true commonalities lies while the differences have been adressed and/or discarted. The main problem is that most of us are blind to this, we do not even know there is differences (I barely exagerate), so how to find the real commonalities.

[donk]

Ah, finally someone asked me to dance...But to which tune????

well, if my first offering was a little a dark, this one always lightens up the flo':

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0

[ulli]

Posted by Flash (here)

Your comparison with computer languages is right (less subtile may be, but in the same directions). Multiply the complexities by 10 with I don't know how many exponents for human languages.

This is why tolerance and constant reworking (or repairs) is necessary. We just can't imagine how much tolerance is needed.

As for as for the common underneath things, yes there are, but not as many as we would wish or think, when taking all together the individual, collective, cultural, language, etc differences. We are all biochemical quantum electric beings as much as my cat. Most of us have access to an emotional range (more than my cat), and most of us are on a spiritual path (don't know for my cat), as little as it may be. When we respond to these, we respond to human mammals plus little bit of other things. This is it my friend. We pass hours responding to the biochemical organism (including emotional hormonal production plus tribal relations) and almost nothing for the rest. So most of us are unaware of the rest (beyond the language, cultural, and other biaises) which is where the true commonalities lies while the differences have been adressed and/or discarted. The main problem is that most of us are blind to this, we do not even know there is differences (I barely exagerate), so how to find the real commonalities.

this brought to mind a question I read somewhere:

what makes a mosaic, the image on the tiles, or the wall to which they are cemented?

[araucaria]

Thanks Paul. I am sure there are some very interesting things to be said about computer language. I recall during the Climategate scandal, there were some amazing REM lines (comments) among the code used at the University of East Anglia basically saying 'this is cheating' and so forth!

The common element you mention does exist somewhere underneath. Before he was a political activist, Noam Chomsky was a highly influential linguist (professor of linguistics), the founder of transfomational grammar. Transformational grammar describes a deep structure (e.g. GI- kills- Jap) which can have several surface structures (e.g. an active structure, 'the GI kills the Jap', or a passive structure, 'the Jap is killedby the GI'). Stated very simply, you have grammar on the one hand, dealing with sentence structure, and semantics on the other, the underlying meaning. Of course, the choice between the active and passive voice is a choice of subject, a choice between the GI and the Japanese viewpoint. This is the situation within a single language. During WW2, the same thing in Japanese (however they formulate their surface structure) would have a very different meaning or deep structure.

So the commonality we are looking for will be achieved when we can share the same deep structure, which will only come by getting beyond our differences whereby, in this instance, American and Japanese are not just synonyms for human being.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Flash (here)
when taking all together the individual, collective, cultural, language, etc differences

Diversity and commonality, both in abundance, in both the lingual layers and the sub and supra lingual layers .

Maybe there is some other language that I don't know that would express this better ... my English feels like fixing a watch with a sledge hammer.

[Carmody]

Posted by donk (here)

Ah, finally someone asked me to dance...But to which tune????

well, if my first offering was a little a dark, this one always lightens up the flo':

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangnam_Style

Although "Gangnam Style" has been met with largely positive reactions, some have found it wacky or even vulgar.[36] Matt Buchanan and Scott Ellis of The Sydney Morning Herald wrote that the video "makes no sense at all to most Western eyes" and it "makes you wonder if you have accidentally taken someone else's medication."[37] Paul Lester of The Guardian labelled it as "generic ravey Euro dance with guitars".[38] and Robert Myers of The Village Voice called it "an inspired piece of silliness".[39] Scott Adams, the creator of the Dilbert comic strip, claims that the seemingly bad elements of "Gangnam Style" all come together to create "an awesome whole".[40]

OK. that was fun, kinda. sort of. which was apparently his point.

I have a friend who is from south Korea. He explained to me that the connection exists in that with regard to mind, thinking, and language....that of all the eastern/asian languages...that Korean is unique in that the jokes can be changed into the English language..,and the English/western translation retains the same subtleties of meaning. I do not know if this is true or not, it is simply what he said.

[Flash]

Posted by Carmody (here)

Posted by Flash (here)

For example, an Eastern European will try to raise arguments and go deep in the argumenting mode because, culturally, it is not only accepted but also a sign of intelligence and intellectual pursuit and pleasurable. I call it argumenting for the sake of argumentation. I often, as a North American (but French speaking Quebecer), see no pleasure nor use for it. So I think that their behavior is gross and direspectful. They think I am a stupid thinker. Well, I have learned to see the real situation without judging, but for most, it is difficult to comprehend (on both sides). I have seen this situation again and again and again in many different cultural encounters, Montreal being a melting pot of the whole planet, and having lived and worked in at least 3 countries, and work in a fourth one as well.

Culture plus language has a huge impact on thinking and writing. Another example I truly do not understand the obligation of wearing arms for American. To me, and to most Canadians and to most Europeans, this is incredible, we would even say, some of us, violent behavior. I came, however, throught exchanges, to understand the logic beneath it viewed from an American point of view. Therefore no more judgment. It is like that for lots of things, sexual contexts, religious thinkings, nationalistic tinted views, `family life understanding, relationships, etc. The cultural differences are just vast. And add to this the individual differences, you see...

This is why acceptance and reworking broken relationships is so important worlwide. This is why relationships are so easy to brake. Across languages and cultures, tolerance is a must, reworking a necessity. In my views.

Thanks for that. A close friend is eastern European. his argumentative side can be very wearing, to say the least. To add, he is a champion debater, in his youth. He is also of incredibly fast mind, with capacity to speak on multiple subjects simultaneously, with depth and authority. He is a Gemini, I remind him. It's his lot in life. 'No', he says, 'I was born under the sign of the spider'. 'That much is obvious', I tell him. (there is a whole thing of the spider sign being a hoax, so don't worry about it)

when I ran into him, he was the first person I had met, that offered any challenge to my mind, in over 15 years. Thus I woke myself from a self induced stupor, in order to address this 'call to the game'. (do I hear an invitation to the dance?) (I had been bored with life in all wearing, repetitious, and meaningless bits... and had simply shut myself down into an automaton.)

Thanks Carmody. I met a few Eastern Europeans that were wearing me off too. My ex being one of them. Intellectually very stimulating though (although in his case, he had low EQ in my views, so there it was draining litterally).
My lot is Gemini too ..... should I worry?????? lol
As for dancing, I know quite well where I actually stand, in terms of intelligence, in terms of emotional intelligence and in terms of spiritual development (I think). I would be afraid to put you back into induced stupor... lol.
However, you must know that you are waking me up from my own stupor most of the time. I just have a heavy tendency to fall back into it. The kick has to be strong while the softeness present. The balance is difficult to reach for me.
Anyhow, thank you Carmody for the stretch toward shaking my stupor.
Have now to go to work to adress the biochemical needs and beliefs that put me back into stupor. Your two years (previous post) away are surely quite justified. I just do not know how to take care of my responsibilities (raising my kid vs letting go for evolution) and let go at the same time.

[Carmody]

Posted by ulli (here)

Posted by Flash (here)

Your comparison with computer languages is right (less subtile may be, but in the same directions). Multiply the complexities by 10 with I don't know how many exponents for human languages.

This is why tolerance and constant reworking (or repairs) is necessary. We just can't imagine how much tolerance is needed.

As for as for the common underneath things, yes there are, but not as many as we would wish or think, when taking all together the individual, collective, cultural, language, etc differences. We are all biochemical quantum electric beings as much as my cat. Most of us have access to an emotional range (more than my cat), and most of us are on a spiritual path (don't know for my cat), as little as it may be. When we respond to these, we respond to human mammals plus little bit of other things. This is it my friend. We pass hours responding to the biochemical organism (including emotional hormonal production plus tribal relations) and almost nothing for the rest. So most of us are unaware of the rest (beyond the language, cultural, and other biaises) which is where the true commonalities lies while the differences have been adressed and/or discarted. The main problem is that most of us are blind to this, we do not even know there is differences (I barely exagerate), so how to find the real commonalities.

this brought to mind a question I read somewhere:

what makes a mosaic, the image on the tiles, or the wall to which they are cemented?

The position of the point of view, ie the observer and all attached aspects.

[ulli]

Posted by donk (here)

Ah, finally someone asked me to dance...But to which tune????

well, if my first offering was a little a dark, this one always lightens up the flo':

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0

This is the first time that I watched the whole video. First thought was what would be it's impact on the Korean national psyche.
The fact that it went viral to the tune of 300+ million views.

My second thought was 'wow...150,000 dislikes, and there was me worrying about a handful of people disliking me for what I had done.'
Major insight into my obsession with statistics.

[araucaria]

Posted by ulli (here)


this brought to mind a question I read somewhere:

what makes a mosaic, the image on the tiles, or the wall to which they are cemented?

Before you get to an image on the tiles, or a wall to cement them onto, you have the different colours of the individual tiles and the manner in which they are arranged

[Carmody]

It is his intent, apparently, to have fun mocking those who would pretend to be the pretenders, the kind who mimic Hollywood style. To make fun of those who mimic the joke, the joke that is not aware of itself.

Like the court jester, he's riding the ragged edge of being killed. Like the Jester, he's mimicking, and getting a laugh...at the same time he's screaming in the undercurrent 'what is your major malfunction?'