Bible Topics and Questions

[mojo]

Thanks Steve, I'm glad you weighed in on the question as it has been in my mind for some time. It's kind of the reverse of Dr Greers stance that they are all benevolent ETs. Both seem to be an extreme.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I thank you very much for that input Mojo. That is a very interesting video, and an important one for many a Christian to take into account. I very much hope kreagle will take a look at that and give it some serious thought, because it's a perfect illustration of the many things in particularly the Old Testament that strongly, definitively, indicate extra-terrestrial visitation.

Ezekiel's fiery wheel that came down from the sky, is a famous example. A rock solid ET encounter if there ever was one.

[kreagle]

Star Mariner and Akasha,

The following statements are very 'troublesome and problematic' if taken in 'complete context' of God's Word, in It's entirety.

In the first instance I follow that school of thought that insists that the Old Testament God is not the God of New Testament. The two ‘Gods’ (thus books) are utterly in opposition. Because one is God, the other is not. This I will always continue to believe. It is so patently clear. My interpretation of God is in line only with what JESUS alone revealed: that he is a God that loves; does not anger, does not judge, and does not Smite.

and,.......

Nahum 1

2: God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
Galatians 5

22-23: [The Spirit of God}… is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Galatians from the NT. That is my God, not this imposter God from the OT above. Can you claim otherwise?

Nahum 1 again

4: He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers
This is not God-work, unless a spiteful, wrathful God, and not the Farther of Jesus. I think this passage is purely the pre-intellectual rationalizations of early MAN, putting the forces of nature that he does not understand at the feet of a God he does not understand.

The Old God is a nasty piece of work. Check out: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../atrocity.html

The 'troublesome' part of these statements comes from the realization that our society, ( and many 'ascribed Christians'), are buying into this, very much, misaligned concept of our God.

The 'problematic' aspect of these statements should become more lucid if one would simply avail themselves to 'study the Word', for the answer to this 'perceived discrepancy' lies neatly nestled within the Scriptures, my dear friends. While some, ( actually, too many), are satisfied with a 'thumbnail' picture of God, ( of their own 'making and desires'),........we find that the 'seasoned believer' will go much deeper and require, ( and accept), a 'complete profile' of God, and not just a 'snapshot view of Him'.

Nobody knew, or understood, the 'complete profile' of God better than the Apostle Paul as indicated by this response, by him, to the Church in the Book of Romans.

Romans 11:22 (KJV)

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

( Notice that 'this is a New Testament quote',......and not from the Old Testament where many are seemingly having their problem, from.)

Paul is accurately telling us, ( along with the Church in Rome), to behold, or look, at the 'entirety of God',....( the goodness and severity),...and for us to not just look at Him from the 'angle in which we choose to view Him from!' This is a 'complete profile' of our God,.....who has a 'good side', ( one that everyone 'eagerly gobbles up' and ascribes to,........and He also has a 'severe side', ( one that many simply 'refuse to accept!') It's here, that many are given over to a 'form of idolatry', (whether they realize it, or not). In 'refusing to acknowledge and accept' God, in His entirely, they, in essence, are getting out their own 'individual paint brush' and painting a 'version of what they want, or desire, for their personal God to be'. Anytime,.... and every time,.... one begins to 'mold, or remake, God into something other than what He already is',.....that's exactly, and precisely, the definition of 'idolatry!' You cannot make your own God!! Those who do will find that their 'handy-work' will, likewise, 'wind up on it's face, mutilated and destroyed' just like the Philistine's god, Dagon, did! ( 1 Samuel 5: 1-7)

To those who simply cannot get beyond the 'God is love 'only' syndrome', and cannot understand, or accept, God in His entirety, I simply invite you back to a day in time, when that particular 'side of God', ( love 'only'), was all that you could see. Welcome back,.....to the Garden of Eden,.....'prior' to the 'fatal bite of disobedience'. It was there, (in the Garden of Eden), when Adam and Eve walked in harmony with God's full intention for mankind, that we see nothing but the 'pure love of God' for His Creation. But 'all of that' took a drastic turn with 'one simple bite',....didn't it?

Prior to this 'fatal bite', LOVE was 'all that existed',.....and needed to exist! As long as they walked in 'harmony with God', and in full compliance to His simple Word, they, ( and even you and I today), would have never had to see, and experience, the 'severe side of God',....the one that judges,....expresses anger,.....and is even 'warlike in nature' on behalf of His people.

In light of this, is it really that hard to see 'why' God revealed His 'other side',...immediately 'after that fatal bite of disobedience' which literally rent His 'prized possession and Creation, ( you and I ), from Him? Did He not 'immediately' reveal His 'severe side' by pronouncing judgement upon the 'serpent', (Satan), and 'mankind', ( Adam and Eve)? Did 'love tell Him',.....#1) "Oh, well,...easy come, easy go,.....but I still love them and 'maybe they'll do the right thing' and come home, one day!,.....OR.......#2) did His 'love motivate Him' to put a 'series of plans together,......write, and enforce, some 'Laws',.....fight for His people, when necessary,......and ultimately 'robe Himself in flesh' for a 'date with Calvary'?

While there are 'those' who wish to 'mold their own ideology around' the 'God is love 'only' syndrome', I will gladly, and candidly, tell you that I will stay 'entrenched' with the 'full profile of God'. The 'goodness and severity' of God tells, and reveals, the whole story, if one will avail themselves to the entirety of God's Word. I sure don't want to have my God to wind up 'face down', and I'm confident He won't if I will 'leave Him alone,....accept Him as He is,.....and keep my 'creative hands and ideologies off of Him!' As long as I do this,....He will remain 'erect and entrenched in my heart!'


Isaiah 40:8 (KJV)

8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.


Star Mariner,

My friend, there is, no doubt, a good deal of 'truths' that you are 'hitting upon', but I'm afraid you are, unfortunately, guilty of the proverbial,......'throwing the baby out with the bath water', also. Dismissing the 'God of the Old Testament', and failing to understand, or accept Him, is grievously problematic, my dear, dear, friend. Even though my post, here, is somewhat lengthy, it still cannot adequately explain the 'fullness of the mysterious God we serve and all of His complexities!'

I will always endeavor to 'enrich my knowledge of God', brother, but never without first comparing the 'new-found knowledge' with the 'Word of God'. While there are great numbers of individuals who try to 'validate the Word of God' with other material and/or documents,......I personally do the 'exact opposite',....in that I first 'validate the material/documents......'by the Word of God'. That is my 'plumb-bob, or plummet', my friend, and assures me that everything is going to 'line up perfectly, from a Scriptural standpoint'.

There are many things, brother, that we are just going to have to,.....'agree to disagree', and the God of the Old Testament 'issue' that you keep bringing up is definitely in this category.

I have many 'other' things that I will be expounding upon in the future, my dear friend.


Your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

[Kristin]

Kreagle,

I do not think that anyone is stating here that possible Alien influence on the Bible depicts their desire to worship Aliens themselves. It's a good conversation to have, but be aware of the difference.

As to the rest, these are serious questions. Though it may be troublesome to you. I can see you are doing your best to reply from your own perspective, and I commend that as well as all of the very well thought out inquiry.

Your Quote: "There are many things, brother, that we are just going to have to,.....'agree to disagree', and the God of the Old Testament 'issue' that you keep bringing up is definitely in this category." - Very well said, and thank you.


From the Heart,
Kristin

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

No worries kreagle and there’s no hard feelings at all on my part for any of it. I enjoy these discussions, no matter the outcome, and no matter the differences of viewpoint between any of us.

I shall offer a couple of brief retorts though One being in light of Paul's statement: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God. My main objection is that it came from Paul, rather than Jesus, and I would very seriously question that Paul understood the true nature of God better than Jesus did.

And secondly, the word 'Severity' was drawn from the old Greek rendering of the text, and that word was "apotomia". The use of this word is generally figurative, and it means 'decisiveness'.

A word, such a small thing, and an ideology is thus coloured, in some, forever…

Sorry if I'm being a pain, but it just illustrates again the earlier point regarding versions, renditions, translations and re-translations. Heads up matey, but sometimes what you see, what you think, and what believe, is not actually what you think it is.

[kreagle]

Posted by Kristin (here)
Kreagle,

I do not think that anyone is stating here that possible Alien influence on the Bible depicts their desire to worship Aliens themselves. It's a good conversation to have, but be aware of the difference.

As to the rest, these are serious questions. Though it may be troublesome to you. I can see you are doing your best to reply from your own perspective, and I commend that as well as all of the very well thought out inquiry.

Your Quote: "There are many things, brother, that we are just going to have to,.....'agree to disagree', and the God of the Old Testament 'issue' that you keep bringing up is definitely in this category." - Very well said, and thank you.


From the Heart,
Kristin

Kristin,

Thanks for 'looking in', and I hope, and would like, to see you contribute to the thread, yourself, as you see fit. When I make reference to the word 'troublesome', I am strictly making that statement, in that, I'm 'worried about any possible damage a person might be doing to themselves'. It is my 'nature' to be concerned for 'others',.....especially when there are those who do not understand the full scope of their actions. I can assure you that I'm, personally, fine,.....but it 'never has been about me', but for 'them!'


To mojo,

As far as the 'ET discussion', I've already covered and expressed my 'views' on this topic back on page 2, post #26, ( of this thread). to seeker1972. I will re-post what I said there. Of course, this can be discussed in greater detail, if this is the general consensus of everyone here.

Here is the link: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post541935.......and the post

Posted by seeker1972 (here)
kreagle, I'll leave the reincarnation stuff alone for now, unless there are others who express a desire to expolore that some more. You're answering the way most christian evangelicals do, so there's no point in pushing that topic, but I decided to pop back on and get your take on something else as I'm very curious about your thoughts on this one as well. It has to do with ET's. The more I have learned over the past two decades, from a lot of different directions, has pretty much convinced me that there are lots of different races from lots of other places. Once I started to think this, I had a problem, because you won't hear many priests talk as if that is a possiblity... Is there room in the bible for us to be one of thousands of races spread all over the universe? Is there room in the bible for the notion of multiple "dimensions"? Because when I think about the possibility of a 4th or 5th dimension where there could be other beings reaching into third dimension to assist us, I automatically relate that to what we describe as angels. How about you? Ever read any good ET books, or watch a good Ancient Aliens show and get convinced?

seeker1972,

Finally back, and now able to give you a more 'in depth answer', or my take as I see it, on the 'topic called ET's'. As I alluded to, earlier,.....I know 'something is out there', in that there are way to many credible sitings, and evidences, from a wide variety of people. The calibre of people who have come forth to testify, basically convinces me that they are not just 'making this up'. 'Everybody' associated with these sitings and events cannot possibly be "all" lying, of that I am quite convinced. As I told someone before,.....I, personally, have never seen an UFO, alien (ET), myself,....but I also have never actually seen a 'tornado' in person, either!,...( just video footage, only). Just because I've never actually 'seen a tornado with my own eyes' doesn't mean that they don't exist,....for they certainly do, in that I have personally witnessed the devastation that they leave behind! Yes,.....something is out there,.....but what?

I have covered this 'topic', in some of my previous posts, but will gladly do so again,.....drawing from my understanding of the Bible.

Simply put, these 'entities' are nothing more than the 'fallen angels', who were cast down to the earth, along with Lucifer (Satan),...when he endeavored to 'exalt himself' and said,...."I will exalt my throne",......and,......."I will be like the most High". (Isaiah 14:12-15)

They are ED's,....(extra-dimensionals),.....not....ET's., and their 'agenda is to deceive mankind', my friend.

Deception is their game,....and they are very good at it!

(point)

Just how successful do you think they would be,...."if" they were to readily admit that they are , indeed, ED's, (demonic entities,...."fallen angels"), like they really are and have been from the very beginning?

By posing to be something that they are "not",...ET's...., they are then able to accomplish their "agenda",.....that is to ultimately "rend souls away from God".

They also know that the "ET" appearance and phenomena is something that "we" humans will "buy......hook, line and sinker"! This has been an "extremely easy sale" for them over the last "several thousand years".

As with any "sale",........"BUYER BEWARE"!!!!

Is there room in the bible for us to be one of thousands of races spread all over the universe?

There is 'plenty of room in the Bible for us,....and ED's',.......but from a Biblical standpoint, I can find no room, or place, for ET's.


Let me explain........


You see,......."us",......and the "fallen angels", (or ED's),.....can easily be found and accounted for within the Scriptural Texts,...the Bible.

A "ET standpoint",......(from another 'planet, solar system, galaxy, etc.),......cannot be found, at all, or accounted for within the Scriptural Texts,....the Bible.

In reality, everything is Biblically, and logically, cleared up when we 'understand and realize' who they really are,....(ED's, extra-dimensionals.....or "fallen angels")!



And yes,......they are very much, REAL!

But so is 'our God'!, my dear friend!


Romans 8:31
King James Version (KJV)

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?


Your friend, brother, and servant........kreagle

Here is also a 'follow-up', with seeker1972, on post #32.....
Link: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post542241


Krullenjongen had some 'very valuable information, and video', also, on post #41
Link: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post542997

Here is another 'valuable discourse' I had with Rocky_Shorz, on post #53
Link: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post543265

I think the above should give everyone a little to 'chew on' and also to indicate my 'feelings and willingness' to discuss this matter openly.

post update

To those who haven't seen it yet, there is a pretty interesting thread, just started by last50cobra, titled 'Ancient Aliens Debunked'. Even though he is 'newcomer', there appears to be some very interesting information for your 'viewing' if you care to spend the time to see for yourself. I've only watched 3 of the videos, thus far, but the contents of it sure make more sense than the 'original broadcasts' of the program. I remember watching many of these 'same programs'. I am, in no way, trying to validate this information,.....I'll leave that up to you to decide. One thing is certain, and quickly comes to my mind, is this following passage of Scripture,.......

Link: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post563277

Proverbs 14:12 (KJV)

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.


Even the 'best laid plans and concepts' of mankind seem to easily come 'tumbling down' when they are not founded upon absolute truth.


John 17:17 (KJV)

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


Your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

[Cristian]

kreagle,
I understand that from a Biblical standpoint you find no room and place for ET's.
But from a personal point of view, what do you think when you look at stars on a beautiful summer night? Do you ever wonder?

[kreagle]

Posted by Chris82 (here)

Posted by kreagle (here)
And I must 'remind you' that the OP, ( 'originally',...and specifically with a 'follow-up' addendum), states that this is 'not the place for a debate'. Let me further state, that our discourses, up to this point, have been 'very cordial and respectful', to which I, once again, salute you with 'much admiration!' I really, really, mean that!

Hi kreagle,

How can you have a thread on a FORUM where you ask people not to debate? Isnt the whole forum idea, from ancient Rome , by definition a place to debate?
I respect you for sharing your views, I think you are doing a great thing, and the Bible does have a lot of wisdom for all of us.
But, every time someone takes things a bit further, every time they want you to step into their world and imagination...you refuse.
You dont have to agree...but you can go with the flow and see where that goes. Just out of curiosity...

Chris82,

Good to see you again, brother! You know that the 'debate issue' has been more than 'adequately addressed', here, my friend. I fully understand you are 'chomping at the bits' to have your debate, but let me provide for you a 'small snippet' from the OP addendum, brother.

'Debates',....never seem to follow the guidelines of 'respectability' and often wind up defined as follows,...."a debate is two teams with Boxing gloves waiting for Jerry Springer to ring the bell...".

I will not 'bludgeon you, ( nor anyone else), over the head' with God's Word,......pure, plain, and simple.

God's Word is not to be debated, in that,......It says what He means,....and He means what It says. You either believe It, or you don't. I think you have made it 'abundantly clear' that you disagree with a great deal of It,.......while I do not, and won't.

We will have to 'agree to disagree', brother, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to carry on other 'productive conversations!'

As you can see, Star Mariner and myself have been involved with various 'discourses' that haven't exactly come out of the 'same mold', but we've been able to 'fashion together' some productive and fruitful discussions, nonetheless. This 'civility is what I expect for this thread',.....and especially for His Word!

You tried to 'disguise your intentions', originally, but upon further questioning you finally 'came clean' with your 'real motive for a debate'. You even re-enter this thread with this 'same mentality', brother, by still referring to it, as a 'debate!' Consequently, I see quite a lot of difference between Star Mariner and yourself, to this point. I would like for you to prove me wrong, brother!

Your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

[kreagle]

Posted by Chris82 (here)
kreagle,
I understand that from a Biblical standpoint you find no room and place for ET's.
But from a personal point of view, what do you think when you look at stars on a beautiful summer night? Do you ever wonder?

Chris82,

Brother, as I've pointed out in my reply to mojo, and seeker1972, I've never personally seen an UFO, but I know 'something is undoubtedly out there'. There actually 'was' a time in my life, many, many, years ago, when I 'internally questioned myself' as to what was going on in outer space, but I no longer have any 'unanswered issues' on this phenomena. To me, everything about the 'alien theory' has all the 'hallmark traits' contained in the deceptive nature of 'fallen angels'.

Love and peace,.........kreagle

[kreagle]

Posted by Star Mariner (here)
No worries kreagle and there’s no hard feelings at all on my part for any of it. I enjoy these discussions, no matter the outcome, and no matter the differences of viewpoint between any of us.

I shall offer a couple of brief retorts though One being in light of Paul's statement: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God. My main objection is that it came from Paul, rather than Jesus, and I would very seriously question that Paul understood the true nature of God better than Jesus did.

And secondly, the word 'Severity' was drawn from the old Greek rendering of the text, and that word was "apotomia". The use of this word is generally figurative, and it means 'decisiveness'.

A word, such a small thing, and an ideology is thus coloured, in some, forever…

Sorry if I'm being a pain, but it just illustrates again the earlier point regarding versions, renditions, translations and re-translations. Heads up matey, but sometimes what you see, what you think, and what believe, is not actually what you think it is.

Star Mariner,

I'm not sure you realize, brother, just what you are actually 'accusing Jesus of, here!' This is tantamount to you saying that,...." Jesus doesn't know what He's doing!"

It was Paul, ( named Saul, then), who literally got a 'first-hand' look, (and experience), of God's severe nature, when Jesus struck him down on the road to Damascus with a 'blinding light!' As I said, earlier,....if anyone understood the 'complete profile of God', (including His 'severe' side), it was Paul, (Saul)! The entire account of this is in Acts chapter 9, verses 1-20.

Jesus took 'severe measures' to 'get the undivided attention of Saul' that day,....because He had a 'mission for him'. Strange as it might seem that Jesus would use the 'very one' who wrecked such havoc in the church, (Saul), our Lord, Jesus, had to go, one step further. This step included convincing Ananias, ( another disciple), to take 'blinded' Saul in,....and lay his hands upon him that he might receive his sight,....and for what reason?

Why?,....because he, (Saul/Paul), was a 'chosen vessel of God!'

Acts 9:13-16 (KJV)

13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.


Star Mariner, not only did Jesus put a 'calling on his, (Saul/Paul's), life' but he literally backed up 'his calling' with many infallible proofs, with a great deal of tremendous miracles! ( Elymas blinded Acts 13:11, Lame man cured Acts 14:10, Damsel with spirit of divination Acts 16:18, Eutychus restored to life Acts 20:10, Viper's bite Acts 28:5, Father of Publius healed Acts 28:8, just to name a 'few')

In light of all of these 'miraculous events' at the hand of Paul, I ask you to consider this passage,......


Hebrews 2:3-4 (KJV)

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?


My 'whole point' in bringing this to light, Star Mariner, is to specifically highlight just how 'Spiritually endorsed' Paul, ( and the 'rest of the Apostles'), actually was/were.

I submit to you, and everyone else, here, that when the Apostles spoke, or acted, they were specifically 'backed up' by God,....our Lord, Jesus Christ, Himself!' He specifically 'endorsed and backed up' their words, and deeds, just as if He was still on Earth doing them Himself!

I will be 're-visiting' this 'extremely vital point' in the very near future, Star Mariner, my brother and friend. It's more important than you can possibly realize. There is 'purpose and design' in everything that our God has put, and will put, in motion.

As far as the Greek word, 'apotomia', ( for 'severity'), literally meaning 'decisiveness', since when does 'decisiveness' not normally, ( more often than not), require a 'quick and severe response?' Is it not 'decisiveness', ( and 'very quickly'), we employ when we have become distracted,....begin to run 'off the road',.....requiring 'severe measures' to wrench the vehicle back on the road? Another descriptive term for 'apotomia' is literally 'sharpness', which even better associates itself with the concept of 'severity', my dear friend!


'Now',....can you begin to realize why I stated that you may not realize what you are actually 'accusing Jesus of?' This would completely 'clear itself up' and reach a totally lucid state, if one might acknowledge 'just how anointed these Apostles actually were,...and why!'


As 'always',...your brother, friend, and servant,......kreagle

[Akasha]

Dear Kreagle, Thanks for elaborating on how you tie the OT and NT god together. I'm glad it works for you. I am, however, unable to cope with the cognitive dissonence involved in such ventures. That's not to say I, any more than Star Mariner, have thrown out the baby with the bath water. For me, the "baby" is love. As long I remain in step with that, I feel I'm on the right track.

Regarding the Pauline doctrine issue, much has been said elsewhere and some would suggest that Paul was in fact very effective in what Saul set out to do, namely going down the road of subtle usurpation of the gospel rather than direct persecution as a means to oppose the early church.

And Finally, I would still appreciate it if you could answer my question regarding your speaking in tongues experience. What language did you speak? I'm guessing that from your alluding to Acts 19.6 it was not of a terrestrial nature.
You may have also noticed that I countered the Acts 19.6 point which you put forward. What are your thoughts on my response?

All the best.

[Kristin]

Kreagle,

Thank you for your response. Your perspective is understood as it is clear where you are coming from: Quote: "especially when there are those who do not understand the full scope of their actions. I can assure you that I'm, personally, fine,.....but it 'never has been about me', but for 'them!'"

I am sure that you understand that from another perspective the information provided by others is to help YOU gain a wider perspective, and to many YOU do not understand the full scope of your actions. So it's a clear juxtaposition. This will not be resolved here on this thread, however, what I commend is the ability for all parties here to agree to disagree with each other as each case is stated. That type of communication (allowing EVERYONE to have the right to express their own opinion in a civil manner and with love) is highly regarded here.

It is obvious that you come form the standpoint that the Bible stands on it's own and is a pure and divinely inspired work that includes no mistakes. I do not agree with this opinion personally, however, I do support the positive inspirations that the Bible has instilled in many. Each to their own. However, the opposite is also true as all things can be subverted to less desirable outcomes. It is the individual person who creates this reality either way. Inspiration can be found in the Bible and in a rock... perspective has everything to do with it.

Importantly, we all have a choice to create spaces for positive communication with each other. Our inspirations will come from many sources that are available to use as tools for higher development. Dogma with each person will be varied and have a powerful effect as a guide for each. Belief systems exist in abundant various forms everywhere. It is our personal choice as to how we each use that information to treat one another.

Though your beliefs are very different then many here on the forum, it is clear that you have been inspired by the Bible to create a space that includes respect for all, whether they agree with you or not. I commend you for that, as this is not always the case.

From the Heart,
Kristin

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Thank you kreagle for your explanation here, but going back to the original question I never had any intention of accusing Jesus of anything. I think we had a muddle with that beautiful but rather defective contrivance called ‘language.’

I stand corrected. I had simply taken your statement as meaning that Paul’s experience with the profile of God meant that Paul somehow had a better understanding or closer ‘grasp’ of what God was and is, than Jesus. But I think I understand what you’re saying now… If I still have it wrong please clarify.

Posted by kreagle (here)
I submit to you, and everyone else, here, that when the Apostles spoke, or acted, they were specifically 'backed up' by God,....our Lord, Jesus Christ, Himself!'

I do have to slightly scratch my head with this statement my dear friend. Are you referring here to the potency of power of God through Jesus, or that Jesus himself was God? Because I would strongly differ here, in that my perception of Jesus is as an emissary of God on earth, and not God ‘himself’, if that makes sense.

Back to the other stuff we were talking about before, I see no reason to plough ahead with any of it between you and me, kreagle. If anybody else wants to talk about ET’s, the OT and NT God complexes etc etc, then no problem, for my part I’m happy to chat away about whatever. But kreagle I fully respect your opinion and perception as it currently stands, and I have no desire to push the issue at you, or expound upon anything we’ve already discussed.

I do hope that some time or another you think on some of these things. Though you go forward with open heart, which is a beautiful thing, see that it is not compounded by a closed mind. My only desire with bringing any of this up, was to try and make you perhaps a little ‘curious’, enough to ask a question. You have your understanding and your paradigm, I only ask now, and for the last time, that you consider ‘paradigm’ as a fluid, an ever changing thing; and our pursuit of God, of wisdom, and our knowledge of Self/Universe/Reality, is a long road with many turns, and it has no end…

Of other matters to clear up, indeed ‘apotomia’ has other synonyms. But the word ‘severity’ could have been transcribed in this passage instead as ‘decisiveness’, or even ‘sharpness’ as you say, and would convey a slightly different meaning to ‘severity’. Severity implies maybe ‘hard or even cruel nature’, whereas ‘decisiveness’ instead could imply ‘purposeful, or determined’. It is in the eye of the beholder or rather in the eye of the transcriber, and later the translator whose toil it is to transpose the text into various other tongues.

Anyway I just wanted to bring that up as a single example to illustrate that no matter what we believe was originally said, and meant, it reaches us through imperfect renderings of the down-to-earth and material nature of language, and sometimes language (just as we’ve see at the top of this post) has a habit of transporting quite assorted meanings and values.

You might well disagree… but there ya go!

As far as ‘debate’ goes, I’m happy to ‘discuss’ anything. But when there is a hot issue at hand, like a Bible topic on a Free-Thinkers forum, debate often quite simply ends up meaning argument. I don’t want to see any bad energy here. So by all means let us talk! But let’s leave the boxing gloves out of it.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Kristin (here)
Though your beliefs are very different then many here on the forum, it is clear that you have been inspired by the Bible to create a space that includes respect for all, whether they agree with you or not. I commend you for that, as this is not always the case.

Kristin I thank you. Commendations to one and all! You said it very well, that even though kreagle, me, and the others all may share slightly different schools of thought, different classrooms, we all share the same Principal in Chief – and that is God/Light/Love/Spirit, whatever you want to call it.

As I said in an earlier post, the details do not matter that much. I think the incentive here is to champion our own particular classrooms, but not to say that any one has a better understanding, rather to share our respective lessons, and to sample each other’s knowledge so we can better understand our own.

That’s my desire anyway! And I do have the utmost admiration for all concerned here, because we have proven each of us that no matter how potentially controversial or passionate the matter at hand, there is a quality in all our energy that stipulates a flaming war will not and cannot occur.

[Cristian]

Kristin's last post is so spot on


Kreagle,

What are your views on today's church? What are your views on the Vatican?Do you think we need the church and priests to reach God?

Do you agree with the quote "Where love is , God is"?

What do you think of this quote : Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Chris

[kreagle]

Posted by Akasha (here)
Dear Kreagle, Thanks for elaborating on how you tie the OT and NT god together. I'm glad it works for you. I am, however, unable to cope with the cognitive dissonence involved in such ventures. That's not to say I, any more than Star Mariner, have thrown out the baby with the bath water. For me, the "baby" is love. As long I remain in step with that, I feel I'm on the right track.

Regarding the Pauline doctrine issue, much has been said elsewhere and some would suggest that Paul was in fact very effective in what Saul set out to do, namely going down the road of subtle usurpation of the gospel rather than direct persecution as a means to oppose the early church.

And Finally, I would still appreciate it if you could answer my question regarding your speaking in tongues experience. What language did you speak? I'm guessing that from your alluding to Acts 19.6 it was not of a terrestrial nature.
You may have also noticed that I countered the Acts 19.6 point which you put forward. What are your thoughts on my response?

All the best.

Hey Akasha,

When I was 'initially' filled with the Holy Ghost, back on Feb. 22, 1981, unfortunately there wasn't anyone in attendance, at our Church, who was able to understand what language I was speaking in. Nor did I know, either, in that I am only 'learned in the English language'. This 'experience' of being filled with His Spirit, is accompanied by the 'evidence' of speaking in 'other' tongues.

From a 'Biblical standpoint', there is.....

'other tongues',.....which is, ( as you say terrestrial), a language from somewhere on this planet, and uniformly produced when someone is genuinely filled with the Holy Ghost.

'an unknown tongue',.....which is not a recognized language used by anyone on earth, but used by God to communicate a 'message to His Church'. This deployment of His special gift requires an 'additional gift', and that being someone who has the 'gift of interpretation' to relay to the Church what is being said by His Spirit. Paul speaks of this, at length, in 1 Corinthians chapter 14.

I feel that the modern day pentecostal movement's interpretation of "speaking in tongues" and claiming it as evidence of an outpouring of the spirit only serves to misrepresent the spirit and more importantly dis-empower the individual by creating the illusion that something has happened when in fact it hasn't.
It could even be regarded as blasphemy against the holy spirit and we know where that leads (mark 3.29) and rightly so, because if one is under the illusion they are not in "sin", how can they be forgiven?

I should point out that I don't, as a rule, subscribe to the Bible although there is plenty within it that does resonate with me. That said, I'm with Star Mariner with regard to the OT impostor god. Vengeance and Jealousy are very clear symptoms of fear (lack of love) and are forever irreconcilable with love. To unite the god of the old and new testament, I would have to conclude that he was an acute schizophrenic (and I'd know).

In connection to your quote, here, I'm not sure that I would ever be able to adequately answer, ( to your 'satisfaction'), your question and response to the account in Acts. 19:6


The '12 disciples of John the Baptist' were, quite simply, filled with the Holy Ghost in the 'same manner' that occured in Acts 2:4, Acts 8:17, Acts 10:46.

Quite frankly, Akasha, your response is totally in-line with the many other responses I have heard by people who have yet to 'experience this phenomena of being filled with the Holy Ghost.' This line of thinking, accompanied by the evidence in Scripture, becomes very problematic to most, because it highlights a deficiency in one's personal walk with God that needs to be addressed and corrected. As you candidly point out,....."that I don't, as a rule, subscribe to the Bible". This only exacerbates the problem because one simply cannot see, or understand, that which they don't believe in, to begin with.

I've answered your question, but I'm, currently, doubting that you'll be satisfied with it's content.


Love and Peace,.....your brother,.....kreagle

[mojo]

Hi kreagle,
I appreciate your response and it was the response the majority of believers would share. The Gary Stearman video was presented to show a supporting view held by some, including myself. I want to propose that there is room in the equation for angels or benevolent beings (beings that were never fallen). There is good and bad throughout the universe and some are seeking after the mysteries of the Creator. I say some and not all. My own observations showed love portrayed by them as love can easily cross communication boundaries. I don't think Fallen angels or bad ET's would hang around this energy, and if it was a facade it would eventually be seen through plus you would agree using the name of Jesus would chase fallen angels or demons away would you not? These beings could sense fear in us and if that happened they would back off. They would never act aggresive. And the plan for salvation does not mean one has to believe in ET's or UFOs. It's extra credit...lol. My point is and your not far from it in the first response you provided is that there is a wide spectrum of things out there, some good and some bad. Not all ET/ED can be one thing... peace

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by mojo (here)
My point is and your not far from it in the first response you provided is that there is a wide spectrum of things out there, some good and some bad. Not all ET/ED can be one thing... peace

Yes quite true Mojo, there is a veritable cornucopia of sightings and visitations taking place at this time, as in times far behind us. And it is to be understood that, just like down here on earth, there is polarity out there also, of both positive and negative influences.

Because a devout Christian experienced the UFO described in this video, it is an important document for all Christians to consider - to at least listen to and form their own judgement. He expresses his experience as a kind of 'miracle' in of itself, that his stricken aircraft was saved from potential disaster, by this UFO. Clearly the work of more ‘angelic’ influences, than ‘demonic’.

The whole fallen angel thing doesn't reach me at all. I do not understand this mythological construct of fallen angels anyway. These craft are machines first and foremost, not apparitions. To create them required the application of science, technical prowess in engineering, and highly advanced technology to achieve their aeronautical and navigation effects, as well as to travel from wherever they have come from. That's the basics in very lay terms, I know far more about it, and 'them' than this, and it is an irrefutable fact that they are living, breathing beings - people - just like us, who originate in other star systems and realities, and are far ahead of us in every conceivable way.

[mojo]

Excellent insight my friend...I feel this is one of the most important considerations in the Oregon sighting event and why they returned to show a perspective few seldom see and learn from.

[kreagle]

Posted by Chris82 (here)
Kristin's last post is so spot on


Kreagle,

What are your views on today's church? What are your views on the Vatican?Do you think we need the church and priests to reach God?

Do you agree with the quote "Where love is , God is"?

What do you think of this quote : Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Chris

Hey Chris82,

What are your views on today's church?

As defined by the Scriptures in Acts 2:47, the 'Church' that was born on that day via the 'Apostles' Doctrine', ( Acts 2:42), is doing just fine. Of course, as in the days of Paul, and the rest of the Apostles, there periodically are 'local problems' that have to be addressed and corrected as necessary, but this is to be expected when dealing with mankind.

What are your views on the Vatican?Do you think we need the church and priests to reach God?

These 'questions' obviously belong together, but I will answer them both.

I disagree with, and categorically reject the teachings of Catholicism.

At the moment of Jesus' Crucifixion, the Vail of the temple was rent in two, from 'top to bottom', ( miraculously), signifying that mankind 'no longer needed a priest' to go to God for him, for now he was able to approach Him on his own.

Do you agree with the quote "Where love is , God is"?

With 'my concept of love',.....yes I do. Everything that God is, and does, issues forth from a complete deployment of a term called AGAPE! This is a 'level of love' that only God can fully impart, and 'few individuals' can fully comprehend, let alone appreciate.

What do you think of this quote : Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

I think that many today completely misjudge, and overlook, the true meaning of this passage of Scripture. God has never shown the propensity to base His 'handy-work' on 'outward appearances' but instead starts on the 'inside and works His way out' When this passage refers to,....'in his own image',.....I am convinced that this is specifically referring to the 'image He had in His Divine Mind' of what He wanted mankind, ( male and female), to ultimately be, and to further 'maintain that image' throughout their lives here on earth. Of course, we all know that came to a 'crashing halt' over that fatal 'bite of disobedience', don't we? I do, however, still believe that God is 'maintaining that Divine image' of His desires for mankind and that they will ultimately come to 'complete fruition' according to His, overall, Divine Plan.

At least, that's how I see it, by design of the Scriptures.

Now, would you kindly respond, and answer, your own questions, also?

God bless,......your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle