Authentic Vs. Spiritual

[Fred Steeves]

So here goes. This has been eating at me for some time now, so I'm just going to say it.(Oh boy, here he goes again LOL) I think spirituality is for the birds, and more than that, I think it's a trap. A person can meditate til the cows come home, memorize holy teachings of every sort, have powerful experiences, etc., but unless the coal of authenticity is burning hotly within, they're running in place, if not losing ground.

What do I mean exactly by authentic? The Oracle baking cookies in the original Matrix movie is authentic. Someone deeply into the dying process is likely to be authentic, or someone on death row, or someone who has truly been to war. Of course small children are authentic, as are our pets. We love them just for that don't we?

It's the realm of no games, and honesty, and the rest is dropping away like burnt flesh. I can't speak for anyone else, but it makes me sick when I see a small child who has been taught to be spiritual. Something precious has been taken away, like the ability just to be a little kid. Adults too.

What do I mean by spiritual? I don't rightly know, only that for the first time in easily a year recently, I found myself browsing the Spiritual section of Barnes And Noble to spend an old gift card. That particular realm not that long ago was my port in the storm so to speak, and now the feeling of being there again after some time was unmistakable: "Fred, you no longer belong here".

To sum things up, I feel strongly that the answer to our times leads directly back to the old "Know Thyself", and absolutely nothing else. To know one's self is to be at peace with one's self, and with that, comes peace with the world, and one's surroundings. (I'm nowhere near there btw) Anyone whose chief intent is anything other than this, is doing just fine of course, but it just means that this lifetime is likely not one of their chances to come here and remember. I think I've been through millions of those...

One more thing. Discernment between who is here to make another attempt at moving on past this plane, and who is here to spread out like a spiritual peacock, will be getting easier with noticing and practice. We've already seen this demonstrated nicely here on Avalon over the last couple of years.


Cheers Everybody,
Fred

[Nanoo Nanoo]

aaah, another penny drops ; 0 )


well said

N

[Flash]

a person sometimes working with me and i were precisely discussing about this today.

A person can meditate til the cows come home, memorize holy teachings of every sort, have powerful experiences, etc., but unless the coal of authenticity is burning hotly within, they're running in place, if not losing ground.

What do I mean exactly by authentic? The Oracle baking cookies in the original Matrix movie is authentic. Someone deeply into the dying process is likely to be authentic, or someone on death row, or someone who has truly been to war.

We were talking about the meditation groups, where most compare themselves favorably of course with others, grading the spiritual awareness of all. I told her that once, fed up of this grading and judging, I just told them that in this life I did not meditate as much because I had done it in previous lifes. I wanted them to shut the comparisons and take a hike. I felt this attitude sooooo unspirtual from all involved (including me). My friend said the same, she is pitching all these meditation practices and spiritual egos away for a true down to earth involvement, helping on a down to earth way.

It is the same for me when people on forums make thread of who is "aware" and who is not, specifying that they are in the aware crowd. This makes me laugh. I have seen countless "aware" literally sleeping at the switch, and many "unaware" very conscious of what is going on in the world without having had the benefit of forums readings. To me, the latter deserve quite a lot of respect because they came to their own conclusions by themselves, which makes conviction quite strong.

Most of the time, in times of crisis, it is the "unaware" that are of most help. In spiritualiy, it is the ones having learned to control their ego, including the spiritual ego, that are the most helpful, not the talkers and weighters.

Therefore, to me authentic means with discipilned, controlled egos, spiritual can mean anything.

The theard tite could also have been, as far as I am concerned, Authentic vs Aware.

[RMorgan]

Hey Fred,

Man, I really loved the spiritual peacock expression! It fits perfectly in so many situations!

Cheers,

Raf.

[Kiforall]

Thanks for that,
It can be difficult to keep a lid on the energy.
Zoe x

[Maunagarjana]

I can see what you mean, Fred. I guess I would just express it a little differently. The difference as I see it is between true spirituality vs fake spirituality. Fake spirituality is about putting on pretensions, collecting and holding fast to beliefs, assuming an identity based on some image (a mask, no matter how spiritually inspired, is a mask.) True spirituality is about dropping all contrivances, pretensions, attachment to belief systems, and all masks. I try not to put down people I think might be caught up in the fakeness of spirituality, because it at least is an attempt at being spiritually attuned, however misguided. But there's no substitute for the real thing.

[another bob]

Humans are the least qualified to be passing judgments on each other.

Period.

[Chester]

Posted by Maunagarjana (here)
I can see what you mean, Fred. I guess I would just express it a little differently. The difference as I see it is between true spirituality vs fake spirituality. Fake spirituality is about putting on pretensions, collecting and holding fast to beliefs, assuming an identity based on some image (a mask, no matter how spiritually inspired, is a mask.) True spirituality is about dropping all contrivances, pretensions, attachment to belief systems, and all masks. I try not to put down people I think might be caught up in the fakeness of spirituality, because it at least is an attempt at being spiritually attuned, however misguided. But there's no substitute for the real thing.

True spirituality might just be being authentic... authentic may also be allowing your view to shift based on where you are authentically at at any given moment. That's one reason I am happy to be a quantum being... I can be all and everything (quantum) and also be any teensee tinesy aspect of the all that is within the all that is and shift from one aspect to another aspect on a dime.

Humans are the least qualified to be passing judgments on each other.

Period.

amen

[mosquito]

Yep. Authenticity, being who you truly are, is the key. But I am in no way knocking the spiritual path ...... The problem with trying to be "spiritual" is that your ego (which of course you now wrongly believe you have transcended) simply changes its' focus onto a new value and judgment system, hence "I'm more spiritual than you" etc etc. "Spiritual" is just another divisive term.

By being authentic, doing what makes your heart sing, you automatically move along the path of spiritual evolution, at the pace and in the direction which is right for you. And of course for some people, this path is an openly spiritual one !!!

The Dao De Jing talks about teaching without teaching, doing without doing. (But let's not dig up that bloody argument again !); Castaneda's Don Juan talks about "doing" versus "not doing" (if my memory serves me correctly), which Castaneda obdurately refused to understand ! Both of these are pointing at the essence of what you're saying Fred, and I have to add that you expressed it very clearly.

[D-Day]

Seems to me that 9eagle9 is still [indirectly] influencing this forum.

Great thread, Fred.

[Anchor]

Nice post.

Another nail being hit squarely on the head.

Meditation has its place and if anyone ever asks me then I still recommend giving it a go. Its one of the tools that help you "Know Thyself".

[Jenci]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
So here goes. This has been eating at me for some time now, so I'm just going to say it.(Oh boy, here he goes again LOL) I think spirituality is for the birds, and more than that, I think it's a trap. A person can meditate til the cows come home, memorize holy teachings of every sort, have powerful experiences, etc., but unless the coal of authenticity is burning hotly within, they're running in place, if not losing ground.

What do I mean exactly by authentic? The Oracle baking cookies in the original Matrix movie is authentic. Someone deeply into the dying process is likely to be authentic, or someone on death row, or someone who has truly been to war. Of course small children are authentic, as are our pets. We love them just for that don't we?

It's the realm of no games, and honesty, and the rest is dropping away like burnt flesh. I can't speak for anyone else, but it makes me sick when I see a small child who has been taught to be spiritual. Something precious has been taken away, like the ability just to be a little kid. Adults too.

What do I mean by spiritual? I don't rightly know, only that for the first time in easily a year recently, I found myself browsing the Spiritual section of Barnes And Noble to spend an old gift card. That particular realm not that long ago was my port in the storm so to speak, and now the feeling of being there again after some time was unmistakable: "Fred, you no longer belong here".

To sum things up, I feel strongly that the answer to our times leads directly back to the old "Know Thyself", and absolutely nothing else. To know one's self is to be at peace with one's self, and with that, comes peace with the world, and one's surroundings. (I'm nowhere near there btw) Anyone whose chief intent is anything other than this, is doing just fine of course, but it just means that this lifetime is likely not one of their chances to come here and remember. I think I've been through millions of those...

One more thing. Discernment between who is here to make another attempt at moving on past this plane, and who is here to spread out like a spiritual peacock, will be getting easier with noticing and practice. We've already seen this demonstrated nicely here on Avalon over the last couple of years.


Cheers Everybody,
Fred

Hi Fred


The ego is the activity in a person which maintains the illusion of separation from the Source. We can see this manifest in people in terms of competition and comparison with others, with people constantly seeking to maintain that separation - my job is better, my house is better, I've got a better relationship, my phone is better etc.

After initial spiritual awakening the need for all these "things" to bolster a sense of identity is usually seen through and all the things which used to be important, no longer seem relevent.

The ego activity of maintaining separation will still remain and it will just shift from using those things to maintain its sense of self, to using spirituality. The spiritually awakened ego is a natural part of this process, everyone will go through it but the real trap is when it is not seen through.

The spiritual ego will label, judge and compare others on the spiritual path to maintain a sense of self or individual identity. The ego needs the comparison of others to remain in tact - it's the same ego activity as it has always been, its just transferred what it uses and become more subtle.

In fact it can become more stubborn to deal with at this point because the person believes that because they have had such a huge transformation in their self and life that they believe they are on the right path.

Of course they are on the right path and all these feelings of comparison and judgement of others are being stirred up within them to show them what is internally calling for attention, in terms of seeking out points of separation from the Source.

The problem arises with this process when the person, rather than dealing with the inner calling of attention, externalises this onto other people and makes it about "them" and what "they" are doing.

The truth is that everyone is having an authentic human experience, whatever they are doing. Everyone is doing what they need to be do to get where they need to go.

Posted by Fred Steeves
This has been eating at me for some time now, so I'm just going to say it.(Oh boy, here he goes again LOL)

You said it here in the opening line of your post, something has been eating at you for some time? This is what is calling for your your attention and it has nothing to do with what "they" are doing.


Jeanette

[Limor Wolf]

Hi Fred,

To me, the answer is obvious - autenthicity.

Being 'spiritual' is only an outcome of getting to know yourself inside and out and striving to know more, there is nothing that one can 'do' to behave spiritual, otherwise, it is not real. it is an 'act'. In any case, in essence we are all 'spiritual beings' but not all of us are authentic (I know that I have to work on that in certain circumstances )

Recently I read the 'Twelfte insight' by James Redfield , a sequel to the 'Celestine prophecy, The tenth insight etc., a 'spiritual' book by all accounts, one of the insights there talks about the importance of authenticity.

From the book :

" As I read on, I realized I have only one page, which was torn and contained only single paragraph. It states that any person who holds the truth of his synchronistic journey, and listens to the truth in another person's journey, is helping to build a new world view which is more appropriate. Due to the respect that this person is developing in regards for truth this has a special effect that affects the world. All we have to do is to maintain our high level of energy...

The first integration has shown us that when we tell others the absolute truth, we help coincidences occur...

In modern times we tend to bend the truth for our own personal advantage or for a political purpose, so we see corruption and greed everywhere...

But in the higher stages of consciousness there is no lie or distortion that is justified. The law of truth is absolute. if we are not staying honest with our best awareness then all will suffer."

James Radfield talks about the need to return to integrity :

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=JsjjfoTJrD4

What is certain is that being sincere is connecting us more to our spirituality.


Thanks for sharing your autenticity, Fred :)


~^&*~^&*

Limor

[Tarka the Duck]

I agree with much of what you say, Fred. Authenticity is an issue that practitioners and students must have been considering for time immemorial, and it seems to particularly relevant in this age. As you probably know, Chogyam Trungpa coined the phrase "Spiritual Materialism", to describe the way in which we manipulate spiritual teachings to preserve our belief in our small self as being our true self.

Turning to "spirituality" can be an escape from the discomfort and unhappiness found in our daily lives: it's seen as yet another way to deal with our problems. As you say, a visit to the Spirituality section of any big book shop - particularly in the the US - is testament to this. The "New! Re-packaged! Shiny! Easily digested!" spirituality that seems to be a blend of self help and DIY psychology and is conveniently palatable, with all the tough bits removed. And much of it is directed at healing and fulfilment of our small self. But even this offers a start for people - a way in.

For me, an authentic spiritual journey is the one that actually is, and not the one we wish it was or hope that it might be. It's not the one we create in our minds to fool ourselves, and it's not the one we pretend it is to impress others. We have to start from where we are right now, fully embracing this life. Concepts, theories, and philosophies can never be as valuable as the way in which we actually live our lives, and the lengths to which we are prepared to go to investigate our belief in a solid, continuous ego.

"Spirituality is about rediscovering the capacity to allow our life to flow from the source of authenticity, which is the silence that is at the core of our being" (I don't know who wrote this - unfortunately, it wasn't me).

Kathie

[Fred Steeves]

Sometimes when I start a thread like this one, and especially this one, a major concerned thought is: "Fred, you're about to expose to the whole world what ridiculous stuff is really going through your head". After listening to that repeated mantra the whole time writing, it gets one or two more real good listens at the end, and then the post thread button is pushed. Too late now, if what I'm thinking/sensing is absurd, way off base, judgemental, or whatever, then let it be exposed to the sunlight, right here and right now. Just like my all time favorite Alex Collier quote: "No more bulls**t". The ego is afraid of being exposed, not the authentic self.

Limor, two excellent examples of authenticity, Don Juan teaching Castaneda, and James Redfield's Celestine Prophecies. The Don Juan character, real or contrived, is the epitome of an authentic human being. Then this snippet from your Celestine book quote sums it up nicely.

But in the higher stages of consciousness there is no lie or distortion that
is justified. The law of truth is absolute. if we are not staying honest with
our best awareness then all will suffer."

You know, I've spent most of my life not being authentic, just like most people. It didn't mean that I was not an authentic human being, because of course we all are. What it did mean is that my base motivation, the "intent" as Don Juan would put it, was not authentic. Therefore my actions were not authentic. Often enough they still aren't, and the deeper one goes into self observation, the more in your face obvious it becomes. Any more, when I'm not being authentic, I suffer. And when I am being authentic, things just seem to flow, even though it may appear they are about to fall apart. Like Don Juan also says, that no matter how dire a circumstance a warrior may find himself, there is always "and yet..."

There is a very fine line between judgement, and recognition. If I note non authentic behavior in a person, it is not judgement, it is recognition. It is recognition of an aspect of myself I know all too well. We are old friends. To somehow not notice this would be akin to not noticing/recognizing/judging an intruder in my house. This would be willfull blindness. As in, how many people still want to hear what Drake has to say?

Cheers,
Fred

[Anchor]

Here is a way to be unauthentic : http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6153 (its a very old Project Avalon post on the old forum, 4 years ago!)

One tries to avoid this kind of behavior if one is able

[Beren]

Excellent thread!

A reminder to all to rediscover themselves. But even following other writings is a calling card to rediscovery...
With some it lasts longer but when it comes it's a miracle!

[WHOMADEGOD]

I suppose we have to question why we are trying to be spiritual?

Generally there is an inner calling, a niggling thought or idea that does not fit within our societal structure of beliefs. This is our cue to turn inwards.

In doing so, we able to centre ourselves by avoiding the deliberate distractions placed upon us and have time out and by doing so wake up and distance ourselves from the drama and recognise and learn from the many lessons to be had in a more objective capacity.

The danger now is that to be "spiritual" is seen as fashionable. And this could very easily work against us unless we realise why we choose to turn inwardly, for peace, for re-connection with our true natures.

[Sebastion]

Methinks you are right D-Day. Seems to me she was all about getting passed and seeing through your societal and parental programming and imprinting. Only then could one begin to truly "know thyself" and approach authenticity. Tis not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination.

Posted by D-DAY (here)
Seems to me that 9eagle9 is still [indirectly] influencing this forum.

Great thread, Fred.

[genevieve]

I've recently lost my self-described "enlightened Buddhist visionary" friend because I told her I wanted only ten minutes' notice before a visit from her since she somehow almost never arrived when she said she would (and sometimes never arrived). And after 44 years of being left hanging, I felt ten minutes' notice would suit us both.

In response she sent me three e-mails in two days (none of which I responded to). In the first she tried to justify her unpredictability, in the second she referred to me as her "bright and shining flower" and herself as a "sorry ass," and in the third she washed her hands of me because she couldn't "bear the weight of [my] control freak ways."

This gal has all the trappings of being a Buddhist (statues of Buddha, pictures of the Dalai Lama, om symbols, etc.), attends Buddhist retreats, etc., yet when asked for something as bottom-line courteous as ten-minute notice, she wouldn't do it because she needed freedom to go with the flow, no matter how I was impacted. That seems pretty authentic to me, although I wish she'd been able to be authentically courteous.

I haven't tagged myself as anything in particular. Labeling myself (or another) as authentic or spiritual doesn't make sense to me because no one is static. Each action or thought can vary from the next. I guess I'm just not into labels, which I think tend to be self serving on some level.

Peace Love Joy & Harmony,
Genevieve