Page 1 of 3 1 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 48

Thread: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

  1. Link to Post #1
    Thailand Avalon Member bram's Avatar
    Join Date
    23rd October 2012
    Location
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Age
    74
    Posts
    290
    Thanks
    1,080
    Thanked 1,267 times in 256 posts

    Default The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    I have wanted to write this post for some time, but I have hesitated because I know it will cause offence to some people, and I don’t want to do that. Many of us have relatives serving in the armed forces, and can therefore testify that these are good people, and have taken the decision to join up for a number of different reasons. Few have joined up because they want to take up weapons and kill innocent people.

    Also,particularly in countries such as the UK and the USA, there has been a strong increase in militarism over the past decade to the extent that anybody who fails to take the line that our armed forces are heroes, fighting selflessly for our freedom against an unseen terror. In the UK, the wearing of the poppy to mark remembrance day (11/11) has become almost obligatory, to the extent that a young professional footballer who opted out of wearing a shirt emblazoned with a poppy was vilified in the press and received death threats of a horrifying nature.

    Remembrance day marked the end of WW2 and was supposed to signify and end to war. However,war continues seamlessly and without missing a beat. The USA is now almost continuously at war, and the UK takes every opportunity to ingratiate itself to the world bully-boy by backing it at every opportunity. The enemy was communism in the form of the USSR and China and has now graduated to Islam. The murder of innocent civilians is now routinely accepted as a ‘lesser evil’, and the recession provides a constant flow of cannon fodder for the imperialist armies of the west.

    We can excuse the individuals who sign up for the armed forces by pointing out the grossly inaccurate and misleading marketing that the forces employ, however it's true that the people are more than willing to be fooled. The victims of this marketing are ready to complain that they were duped, but not ready to lay down their arms when they find this is the case (with the exception of real heroes like Bradley Manning).

    As a peace activist in the UK in the 1970s and 80s, I can attest that the ordinary Joe in the street could not care less about the cost of nuclear weapons and the concept of peaceful coexistence between nations. They would rather go with the flow and subscribe to the collective ego with its national pride and hatred of the other.

    When a British youth suggested on his facebook page that the soldiers themselves were responsible for killing, and therefore deserved themselves to die (an extreme view commensurate with a youthful mind) he was arrested and prosecuted for daring to have an opinion which differed from the prescribed viewpoint. Only a swift and insincere apology saved him from imprisonment and no doubt the further covert vengeance of the ‘good guys’.

    In a country like the UK, with its disproportionate spending on the military, there is hardly a murmur about spending billions on upgrading the nuclear ‘deterrent’ even as the poor are suffering further cuts. This blatant corruption (the only benefactors of this spending are the arms manufacturers and of course the ministers offshore bank accounts) goes without anyone apparently questioning the need for increased nuclear deterrent.

    Are we to assume that the UK is therefore planning a preemptive nuclear strike? Of course not. The weapons will sit there slowly leaking toxic radiation until the next government can justify a further upgrade from the taxes.

    So now I think it is time to say that yes, the individual members of the military are responsible, like the rest of us, for their actions. It is time we started to help them to help themselves, for the law of karma is irrefutable and the karmic seeds sown by involvement in the slaughter of innocents, whether by abuse, neglect or the pushing of a button and the operation of a drone, will necessarily lead to an equivalent or greater amount of suffering, possibly through numerous lifetimes, until the lesson has been learned finally by the perpetrators.

    Now it is time to stand up against this pro-military brainwashing, and say loudly that yes, it is the soldiers who kill, and they are responsible for doing it.

    They can no longer hide behind the following of orders. I am also sorry to say that the death of a soldier, however brave and patriotic he/she may be, is not therefore a tragedy as it is portrayed by our masters, but probably instead is likely to lead to saving of civilian lives.

    The following song was recorded at the beginning of the 1960s, before Vietnam and the peace movement; its message is as true or truer today than it was back then.

    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; 27th November 2012 at 15:12. Reason: I added a space that was missing between many pairs of words

  2. The Following 18 Users Say Thank You to bram For This Post:

    161803398 (27th November 2012), Akasha (27th November 2012), baddbob (27th November 2012), donk (27th November 2012), East Sun (28th November 2012), Fred Steeves (28th November 2012), Hughe (28th November 2012), kersley (27th November 2012), Mercedes (27th November 2012), mosquito (28th November 2012), Mozart (27th November 2012), PHARAOH (27th November 2012), Ron Mauer Sr (27th November 2012), Selene (27th November 2012), selinam (27th November 2012), spiritguide (27th November 2012), Tesseract (28th November 2012), truth4me (27th November 2012)

  3. Link to Post #2
    United States Avalon Member kaon's Avatar
    Join Date
    21st November 2012
    Age
    64
    Posts
    215
    Thanks
    454
    Thanked 770 times in 180 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    A touchy subject indeed.

    To quote you...."So now Ithink it is time to say that yes, the individual members of the military areresponsible, like the rest of us, for their actions." I have to disagree with that statement.

    There are many reasons why our young people go into the military. In the U.S. it is primarily for economic reasons. A very substantial number enter the military to escape poverty. Entering the military is a job and many are drawn in for that reason. Schooling is another big reason. In the military you can get an education, where many of our citizens cannot afford to put their kids through college. Veterans who are well educated can come out of the service and be employable in skilled positions that would be unattainable with only a high school diploma.

    I can tell you that I don't know of a single family member or friend who went into the service to kill. Not one. I am not saying that there is not an element of some going in to become a killing machine, but I believe an extremely small percentage of our enlistees are in it to go to war and risk their lives in some far away place.

    That being said, I will shake the hand of the soldier and thank them for their service. Sorry, but I can't blame the village for the actions of the village elders.

  4. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to kaon For This Post:

    bram (27th November 2012), Mark (27th November 2012), Mercedes (27th November 2012), Mozart (27th November 2012), Selene (27th November 2012), shadowstalker (28th November 2012), spiritwind (27th November 2012), TargeT (28th November 2012), WanderingRogue (27th November 2012)

  5. Link to Post #3
    Avalon Member
    Join Date
    26th April 2010
    Age
    49
    Posts
    358
    Thanks
    532
    Thanked 954 times in 273 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    so let me see if i got this straight........joining the military means u are 100 percent not responsible for ones own actions?......and two. people who join the military , when

    the military only has one purpose in the world......... to kill other humans ...... didnt join to kill other humans......wow

    interesting thoughts.

    solidiers are paid mercenaries unable or unwilling to know what they are doing is so very wrong.




    Quote Posted by kaon (here)
    A touchy subject indeed.

    To quote you...."So now Ithink it is time to say that yes, the individual members of the military areresponsible, like the rest of us, for their actions." I have to disagree with that statement.

    There are many reasons why our young people go into the military. In the U.S. it is primarily for economic reasons. A very substantial number enter the military to escape poverty. Entering the military is a job and many are drawn in for that reason. Schooling is another big reason. In the military you can get an education, where many of our citizens cannot afford to put their kids through college. Veterans who are well educated can come out of the service and be employable in skilled positions that would be unattainable with only a high school diploma.

    I can tell you that I don't know of a single family member or friend who went into the service to kill. Not one. I am not saying that there is not an element of some going in to become a killing machine, but I believe an extremely small percentage of our enlistees are in it to go to war and risk their lives in some far away place.

    That being said, I will shake the hand of the soldier and thank them for their service. Sorry, but I can't blame the village for the actions of the village elders.

  6. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to robinr1 For This Post:

    bram (27th November 2012), mosquito (28th November 2012), Selene (27th November 2012), selinam (27th November 2012), Tesseract (28th November 2012), truth4me (27th November 2012)

  7. Link to Post #4
    Avalon Member
    Join Date
    26th April 2010
    Age
    49
    Posts
    358
    Thanks
    532
    Thanked 954 times in 273 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    also i must preface i was referring to usa soldiers in the post above......defending your homeland/ home from invaders is a totally different subject.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to robinr1 For This Post:

    selinam (27th November 2012), truth4me (27th November 2012)

  9. Link to Post #5
    Thailand Avalon Member bram's Avatar
    Join Date
    23rd October 2012
    Location
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Age
    74
    Posts
    290
    Thanks
    1,080
    Thanked 1,267 times in 256 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    Quote Posted by kaon (here)

    There are many reasons why our young people go into the military. In the U.S. it is primarily for economic reasons. A very substantial number enter the military to escape poverty. Entering the military is a job and many are drawn in for that reason. Schooling is another big reason. In the military you can get an education, where many of our citizens cannot afford to put their kids through college. Veterans who are well educated can come out of the service and be employable in skilled positions that would be unattainable with only a high school diploma.
    Hi Koan,

    What you seem to be saying is it is okay to join an organization which invades countries and then asks you to kill innocent people, if it means you get a job and an education. This philosophy could also be applied to organized crime too couldn't it?

    I can't imagine what it must be like to know you have killed innocent people, and have to live with that for the rest of your life. If our society pretends this can be done, then this only proves how deeply unconscious our collective behaviour is. Being in the military, you risk being brutalized for llife and never being able to fit back in and resuming the life of a normal citizen. We should not be asking our young people to do this, and they should not be volunteering to do it either.

    Love, bram
    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; 27th November 2012 at 15:12. Reason: fix quoting

  10. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to bram For This Post:

    Akasha (27th November 2012), kaon (27th November 2012), mosquito (28th November 2012), selinam (27th November 2012), spiritguide (27th November 2012), Tesseract (28th November 2012)

  11. Link to Post #6
    United States On Sabbatical
    Join Date
    18th January 2012
    Location
    Pacific NW
    Posts
    357
    Thanks
    9,163
    Thanked 2,665 times in 349 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    I know for a fact my husband did not enjoy killing people, and yes, he did kill quit a few (especially in Vietnam). In fact, he was given a bunch of medals for doing just that. But then, in the end, our government did to him what it does to all that know too much, or are becoming a liability in their mind in any way. He should be getting a pension now and we should be living well but he gets nothing, and that was after appealing to 2 different presidents. He did love the adventure and would have had a hard time just living a mundane life but now has a hard time with civilian life. He truly thought he was being brave and representing our country and the people's interest for the right reasons when he joined and I am sure that many who join are doing so for the same reasons, plus as stated above, to escape poverty and get an education. Being a medic I also know he saved a lot of lives too. This is unfortunately still a violent world that, while we are trying to change it for the better, may still require certain actions to stay alive and I for one am glad that my husband would have no problem defending his home and family if the need arises. Yes, there are some bad apples, but there are plenty of those in oureveryday lives if you just look around. Plenty with no conscience that couldn't make it in the military if they tried. I used to have a certain mind set about the military (I grew up as a JW) but since I met my husband I now see the situation with our (US) military is much more complex than I thought. I'm a lot less quick to make snap judgments these days. Plus, many who join, especially during times of relative peace, don't ever see any combat at all. You may see the military as a killing machine but don't assume those that join really just want to be able to kill with impunity. And I'm not even going to get started on what I think about how our veterans are treated in this country either. There are many who haven't been left with a very good feeling about their years of service. Just look at the suicide rate.

  12. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to spiritwind For This Post:

    bram (27th November 2012), conk (27th November 2012), enfoldedblue (28th November 2012), Fred Steeves (28th November 2012), Mark (27th November 2012), mosquito (28th November 2012), Mozart (27th November 2012), Selene (27th November 2012), spiritguide (27th November 2012), TargeT (28th November 2012), WanderingRogue (27th November 2012)

  13. Link to Post #7
    United States On Sabbatical
    Join Date
    18th January 2012
    Location
    Pacific NW
    Posts
    357
    Thanks
    9,163
    Thanked 2,665 times in 349 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    Quote Posted by bram (here)
    Quote Posted by kaon (here)

    There are many reasons why our young people go into the military. In the U.S. it is primarily for economic reasons. A very substantial number enter the military to escape poverty. Entering the military is a job and many are drawn in for that reason. Schooling is another big reason. In the military you can get an education, where many of our citizens cannot afford to put their kids through college. Veterans who are well educated can come out of the service and be employable in skilled positions that would be unattainable with only a high school diploma.
    Hi Koan,

    What you seem to be saying is it is okay to join an organization which invades countries and then asks you to kill innocent people, if it means you get a job and an education. This philosophy could also be applied to organized crime too couldn't it?

    I can't imagine what it must be like to know you have killed innocent people, and have to live with that for the rest of your life. If our society pretends this can be done, then this only proves how deeply unconscious our collective behaviour is. Being in the military, you risk being brutalized for llife and never being able to fit back in and resuming the life of a normal citizen. We should not be asking our young people to do this, and they should not be volunteering to do it either.

    Love, bram
    I guess you were replying the same time I was. My only comment is, I'm glad you're not the one to judge me for where I have been in my life. Everything you say is true, but as I said, people change and hopefully their awareness grows, especially in how we have been programmed/socialized to accept what would normally be considered psychologically unbalanced behaviors to downright wrong. Iknow my awareness has grown tremendously in this lifetime and what I thought was okay 10, 20, 30 years ago, is definitely not the same today. And yes, there are many veterans who are having a hard time living with what they now realize they have been a part of. And you are lucky to not be one of them.
    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; 27th November 2012 at 15:14. Reason: fix quoting

  14. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to spiritwind For This Post:

    bram (27th November 2012), Mark (27th November 2012), mosquito (28th November 2012), selinam (27th November 2012), spiritguide (27th November 2012)

  15. Link to Post #8
    United States Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    12th April 2012
    Location
    east coast suburban sprawl
    Posts
    2,896
    Thanks
    11,666
    Thanked 16,349 times in 2,716 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    It is sad, because the fact is, the good ones (brainwashed into believing that following orders unquestioningly is a good thing, somehow helps others) were lied to and/or lying to themself.

    The military (I exclude Coast Guard/National Guard) is not like being a cop, where there is possibility of killing someone in the line of duty. The military is by definition is a weapon used by the government. Whatever reason you tell yourself that it is ok (family tradition, protecting country--best defense is good offense, right?, no other opportunity, get out of a bad situation), that is what it is...to varying degrees, you are responsibile to actual kill other human beings or support the effort of those that do.

    Personally, to me it is in the middle of the range of "honorable", it depends on how honest you are about it. If you are a sniper thinking that you are used--by people you trust and believe in--to take out what you think are truly evil people, it is still killing people...but you are a better person than the scientist that discovers a way to weaponize a virus or something.

    It's just like anything else, the level of awareness and personal responsibility the individual takes and the amount of integrity in which they do so is the only way that you can judge them (or anyone), in my book. I apologize for replying after only getting a quick skim of the thread in, though it is a subject I thought long and deeply on. Blanket statements are dangerous, but then again, the fact that the military is essentially the killing machine of the government, no matter what you tell yourself you're doing within it--is also a "blanket statement", that seems to me to be TRUTH, and needs to be considered.

    Unfortunately we are brainwashed to blindly "support our troops". Sorry if it has been said, but to me it sounds like "support our wars". I like the bumper sticker "war is never the answer". It is easy for me to choose not to directly participate. But living a middle-class western civilized consumption based lifestlye with my job as a cog in the production wheel, no matter how SEEMINGLY far from directly related my job in financial retirement services seems to be, I am directly participating in the culture of war, it's just that fewer people around me are aware or would be as honest about it...

  16. Link to Post #9
    Avalon Member Carmody's Avatar
    Join Date
    19th August 2010
    Location
    Winning The Galactic Lottery
    Posts
    11,388
    Thanks
    17,597
    Thanked 82,392 times in 10,238 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?



    And neither did Gandhi, for that matter.

    It really is that simple. Anything else is wishful thinking.

    as in: "I'll just join the elites to make a few bucks. Just for a while. I'll create a justification in myself that I can somehow separate myself from this self lie, and live on."
    Interdimensional Civil Servant

  17. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Carmody For This Post:

    Akasha (27th November 2012), bram (27th November 2012), Litenites (27th November 2012), meeradas (28th November 2012), mosquito (28th November 2012), Selene (27th November 2012), selinam (27th November 2012), spiritguide (27th November 2012), Star Tsar (28th November 2012), truth4me (27th November 2012)

  18. Link to Post #10
    United States Avalon Member kaon's Avatar
    Join Date
    21st November 2012
    Age
    64
    Posts
    215
    Thanks
    454
    Thanked 770 times in 180 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    Quote Posted by bram (here)
    Quote Posted by kaon (here)

    There are many reasons why our young people go into the military. In the U.S. it is primarily for economic reasons. A very substantial number enter the military to escape poverty. Entering the military is a job and many are drawn in for that reason. Schooling is another big reason. In the military you can get an education, where many of our citizens cannot afford to put their kids through college. Veterans who are well educated can come out of the service and be employable in skilled positions that would be unattainable with only a high school diploma.
    Hi Koan,

    What you seem to be saying is it is okay to join an organization which invades countries and then asks you to kill innocent people, if it means you get a job and an education. This philosophy could also be applied to organized crime too couldn't it?

    I can't imagine what it must be like to know you have killed innocent people, and have to live with that for the rest of your life. If our society pretends this can be done, then this only proves how deeply unconscious our collective behaviour is. Being in the military, you risk being brutalized for llife and never being able to fit back in and resuming the life of a normal citizen. We should not be asking our young people to do this, and they should not be volunteering to do it either.

    Love, bram
    Hello Bram.

    I don't condone a lot of what the military does. In fact, I disagree with quite a bit of what they are doing these days.
    I wanted to make the point of a civilian who is entering the military and the primary reasons why. I cannot in good conscious call them demons. Also consider that people who are entering the military are young and many are probably clueless and don't have the knowledge that we do.

    You can't blame the thousands of Enron employees for the deeds of a dozen corporate officers, can you?
    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; 27th November 2012 at 18:46. Reason: fix quoting

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to kaon For This Post:

    spiritwind (27th November 2012)

  20. Link to Post #11
    United States Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    12th April 2012
    Location
    east coast suburban sprawl
    Posts
    2,896
    Thanks
    11,666
    Thanked 16,349 times in 2,716 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    I don’t want to leave a vague post hanging on a serious topic, especially one I have little direct experience with. So let me clarify my position:

    If you are an American and sign up for the Army, Navy, and especially Marines (front lines and all that), you are signing up for the team whose job is it to see foreigners as the other team, that you are trained and on board to kill if the coach needs you to.

    You can tell yourself what you want, as pretty much everyone who signs up does. But I think it would serve America (and humanity) well to be honest about it.

    That way, maybe the honesty can trickle down to civilian life. And we can start being honest about the fact that in order to live our “non-negotiable way of life”, we need the military to exploit other nations resources, so that we can consume them in this sick cycle. And what’s a better way to generate revenue that destroying ****? Got to keep the machine chugging along.

    I used to tell myself what I do is just a job. That’s how I had to rationalize it. But now I can be honest: I am choosing to participate in this culture of war.

    By going to work. By buying ****…even stuff I “need to survive”. I have chosen not to struggle to try to live outside of this seemingly all-encompassing system, instead I take as much advantage of it as I can. The only thing I feel I can do is to bring awareness of the lies we tell ourselves about it. 100th monkey and all…

    But I am preaching to the choir here. I do try to live as close to outside the system as I can. I try to point in ways that people can hear, things that they are normally resistant to. That is the amount of personal responsibility I have taken so far. Not much, but the system makes it tough to do more, and the lies I have told myself my whole life had me digging myself a huge hole, developing a dependency on the system.

    Is the military bad? No worse than just about anything else. They might just be a little more honest about it. The few that are aware. We (civilians) have the luxury of not knowing what they know:


    We want them on that wall, we need them on that wall…(and they’d rather us just say “thank you”)

  21. Link to Post #12
    Avalon Member Carmody's Avatar
    Join Date
    19th August 2010
    Location
    Winning The Galactic Lottery
    Posts
    11,388
    Thanks
    17,597
    Thanked 82,392 times in 10,238 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    Too much externalization. Too much ego.

    Is your life really worth killing others for?

    That is one of THE prime questions one faces, in the form of human incarnation, or soul inclusion.

    Answer that within the self....and one can begin to pass from needing to be in this place.

    One might note that this question has been put squarely, and undeniably... in the face of one's life and being, for quite some time now, regarding being a human on earth. The comfortable quiet grass munching times/aspects..... are over.
    Last edited by Carmody; 27th November 2012 at 15:50.
    Interdimensional Civil Servant

  22. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Carmody For This Post:

    bram (27th November 2012), Litenites (27th November 2012), meeradas (28th November 2012), modwiz (28th November 2012), PurpleLama (27th November 2012), spiritguide (27th November 2012)

  23. Link to Post #13
    Thailand Avalon Member bram's Avatar
    Join Date
    23rd October 2012
    Location
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Age
    74
    Posts
    290
    Thanks
    1,080
    Thanked 1,267 times in 256 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    Quote Posted by kaon (here)

    Hello Bram.

    I don't condone a lot of what the military does. In fact, I disagree with quite a bit of what they are doing these days.
    I wanted to make the point of a civilian who is entering the military and the primary reasons why. I cannot in good conscious call them demons. Also consider that people who are entering the military are young and many are probably clueless and don't have the knowledge that we do.

    You can't blame the thousands of Enron employees for the deeds of a dozen corporate officers, can you?
    Hi Koan,

    I know, its not black-and-white at all. And I know a lot of young people are drawn into the military following those recruiting ads telling them what a great life they will have.

    As soon as the system has finished using them, they are dumped, as Spiritwind described it so eloquently, and left alone with the knowledge of what they have been asked to do. hence the suicide rate amongst veterans. Also, war seems to have changed (not that I would know) into an endeavour where the killing of innocents, not opposing forces, is the whole point. that means women, children and babies dying a horrible death at the hands of our soldiers according to the agenda of our masters.

    but you know, we encourage these kids to join up by not speaking out, and then by being so damned proud of them!
    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; 27th November 2012 at 18:51. Reason: Reduce nested quoting depth

  24. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to bram For This Post:

    mosquito (28th November 2012), spiritguide (27th November 2012), spiritwind (27th November 2012)

  25. Link to Post #14
    United States Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    12th April 2012
    Location
    east coast suburban sprawl
    Posts
    2,896
    Thanks
    11,666
    Thanked 16,349 times in 2,716 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    Quote You can't blame the thousands of Enron employees for the deeds of a dozen corporate officers, can you?
    Actually what I was saying at some point we have to.

    The millions of consumers, too...

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Rationalization and excuses are necessary for the American way non-negotiable way of life. It's hard to imagine how, but the only way to continue as a species is to stop participating

    . Easier said then done, but I kinda thought that figuring out how was what most of us are here for?

  26. Link to Post #15
    United States Avalon Member truth4me's Avatar
    Join Date
    28th May 2010
    Location
    Northeast corner of Arkansas
    Age
    66
    Posts
    1,281
    Thanks
    2,698
    Thanked 5,298 times in 1,094 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    I believe most of the young men really don't understand the ramifications of joining the military really is now days. Ever noticed the commercials when sporting events are on television? They pay and give you a free education. Free medical and dental for life.Which is all fine and dandy but when they put a gun in your hand and ask you to start killing.....that's the biggest problem of all. Even though you might have been brainwashed you still know killing in your heart is wrong and you sign a contract ,enlisting is the military term, you knowingly commit murder. Now it would be different if your defending your homeland but that's not whats happening America is going over there for oil and such...

  27. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to truth4me For This Post:

    bram (28th November 2012), donk (27th November 2012), Litenites (27th November 2012), Selene (27th November 2012), spiritguide (27th November 2012), spiritwind (27th November 2012)

  28. Link to Post #16
    United States Avalon Member spiritguide's Avatar
    Join Date
    6th April 2011
    Location
    Minnesota, U.S.
    Posts
    1,634
    Thanks
    13,369
    Thanked 7,731 times in 1,479 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    The answer is blowing in the wind. Listen carefully this song imparts a message.

    link.... https://youtube.com/watch?v=tSSjM6-fUFE

    Have not learned to upload videos yet. I apologize but worth a watch.



    Let us work together on resolutions instead of blame.

    Another thought... https://youtube.com/watch?v=t3xJf...eature=related

    Some messages live forever...
    Last edited by spiritguide; 27th November 2012 at 16:46.

  29. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to spiritguide For This Post:

    donk (27th November 2012)

  30. Link to Post #17
    United States Avalon Member conk's Avatar
    Join Date
    17th March 2010
    Location
    Alabama
    Language
    Southern English
    Posts
    3,937
    Thanks
    11,067
    Thanked 11,185 times in 2,998 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    Soldiers: Sincerity betrayed by ignorance. Ignorance: The real demon.
    The quantum field responds not to what we want; but to who we are being. Dr. Joe Dispenza

  31. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to conk For This Post:

    bram (28th November 2012), donk (27th November 2012), Litenites (27th November 2012), modwiz (28th November 2012), spiritguide (27th November 2012)

  32. Link to Post #18
    Scotland Avalon Member
    Join Date
    6th April 2010
    Location
    Newark, OH
    Age
    54
    Posts
    36
    Thanks
    557
    Thanked 76 times in 26 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?


  33. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to albativo For This Post:

    meeradas (28th November 2012), spiritguide (27th November 2012)

  34. Link to Post #19
    United States Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    12th April 2012
    Location
    east coast suburban sprawl
    Posts
    2,896
    Thanks
    11,666
    Thanked 16,349 times in 2,716 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    Quote I believe most of the young men really don't understand the ramifications of joining the military really is now days.
    I believe most people don't understand the ramifications of having a job, buying stuff, voting, and every other facet of participating in the "western civilization democracy based capitalist way of life". If not for that, we wouldn't need a military, right?

    Maybe just a "guard" from any outside culture that lives this competitive parasitic individualistic lie-based ownership society...but even then, we'd be stooping to that level.

    Love and life based culture is the only way to sustain a society. Fear & death based cultures like ours don't seem to work out.

    Isn't that what we should focus on? The military latched on to and bastardized that concept: changing "hearts & minds". But they want WIN hearts and minds, twist them to their (our) selfish way of thinking & feeling. Way I see it, the problem is like Charlie says "duh...WINNING!!!"

  35. Link to Post #20
    United States Avalon Member Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    11th June 2011
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Age
    58
    Posts
    3,024
    Thanks
    20,228
    Thanked 24,854 times in 2,889 posts

    Default Re: The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

    Since there seem to be no other Vets stepping up to address y'alls "commentary" I'll share an article I wrote on the topic a while back. It's a bit long but with all of the excoriation of Vets in this thread I feel the length is warranted. It's real and from my life experience as Air Force Brat for all of my youth up to 18 as well as serving in the Army for 4 years and 8 months myself Active Duty, culminating in Desert Storm in 91.

    Military Blues: A conscious Vet's perspective

    What makes people choose military service? Why would a person risk their lives for another, for someone they don’t even know, or even for people that they hate? Is Nationalism dead? Does it need to die? With so many people disillusioned with the state of these United States, what reason is there to pledge allegiance to anything besides family and friends? According to some sources, less than one quarter of the U.S. congress has worn a uniform. Fewer than one in ten Americans has served their country by joining the military. With these kinds of statistics, what does military service have to do with being a good American, or patriotism?

    Should it make a difference if someone has been in the military when it comes to determining who decides if a country should go to war? What does military service say about one’s commitment to one’s country, or one’s amount of patriotism? And, if someone castigates the military and those who serve in it, do they have the right to do so no matter their self-perceived status under the pale of American citizenship? These questions and more have formed the core of my experiences and I can only speak to them out of the books of my own, personal history.

    My perspective is experientially biased. For nineteen years of my life I was the son and dependent of an Air Force NCO who, through his own initiative and hard work, became a respected and successful Officer. I gave up my Air Force dependent’s ID card for an Army active duty ID card, serving from January 1987 to July 1991, honorably discharged. My experience growing up as a brat made military service no less an option than college although I did do a year and a half of college before entering the Army.

    Did I enter specifically to serve my country? No, not directly. The GI Bill and the Army College Fund were my primary incentives, made even more irresistible by the Europe 9 option, which guaranteed me a tour on the Continent. Most of my AF dependent friends in HS had spent years in Germany, Great Britain or Italy and, even though I’d lived on the Isle of Crete, Greece as a young boy, I wanted to go to Germany and experience the Continent for myself. Aside from those admittedly sensate considerations, I was a victim of what some call the economic draft, in which economically disadvantaged Americans with few options choose service in the military to increase their technical and/or educational skillsets in order to gain an advantage in the workforce post-service.

    In Basic Training and during all phases of national military service, Patriotism, Duty and Sacrifice are ingrained into soldiers in the physical, mental and spiritual dimensions. None of this was new to me, as I’d undergone the same conditioning all during childhood. Nation, fraternity and the possibility of making the Ultimate Sacrifice form the foundation upon which generations of Americans have stood, finding common cause in the shared love of community and family and the necessity of defending these societal institutions against all threats. For individual soldiers, these ideas resonate at a conscious level and, alongside the desire to serve with and protect one’s fellow soldiers, result in a martial stance on many issues, both social and political, that might be considered extreme by those outside of the military establishment, i.e. kill them all and let G-d sort them out.

    During times of peace, the lives of American soldiers’ center around training – in the field and on post/base/installation – and rear echelon maintenance activities that leave plenty of time for fun and carousing, which is perfect for young people with few or no responsibilities to anyone other than themselves. My European Tour was just that, for almost three years. But when STOP-LOSS was initiated right before Desert Storm – the first Persian Gulf War – it became incumbent upon me to determine whether or not these subconscious and ideological pinions that had been inculcated within me and my fellow soldiers were indeed worth the possibility of giving up my life, and whether or not the cause for which we had been called into conflict was in line with a direct threat to the nation, its communities and families.

    After much thought and counter to my plans previous to the onset of hostilities, I determined that this conflict, wherever it might lead, would comprise the extent of my willingness to sacrifice my life for “my” country. And so when my service ended – and as soon as STOP-LOSS released me into the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR) on inactive status – I was done and, as a passive sign of my new-found aversion to nationalism, did not cut my hair again for 12 years as I embarked upon an educational Awakening that continues to this day, 20 years later. My knowledge of the military industrial complex at that time was minimal, but the observation that Desert Storm seemed mostly about natural resources and the economic concerns of a wealthy minority did not pass over my then-shorn head or those of my friends even though we were only soldiers. Subsequently, the Clinton Presidency saw us out of the Gulf and into the Balkans at the onset of wars in the former Yugoslavia, which was when the center of gravity of American troop deployment moved from West to East. Then, the end of the 90s and beginning of the new century, a new president from my home state, Texas, and, after 911, a return to the Gulf by way of Iraq and Afghanistan leading up to the Present and Now, an incursion, potentially, into North Africa by way of Libya.

    The Cold War-based military that I was a part of is no more; all the Vietnam vets waiting for retirement are long gone as my peers, those whom I entered the military with, have reached their 20 years of service and more, achieving whatever heights they aspired to during the intervening decades. A soldiers life recedes in memory if not intensity, leaving her or him experientially diversified yet foundationally similar to those who currently wear the uniforms, carry the rifles, and shout the cadences. This fraternal experience, which bonds men and women in terms of service is as real as any other bond, and sometimes more visceral and powerful than many.

    To make the decision to go to war requires a sober mind that, at the very least, understands a soldier’s mentality. That shares his concern about family and friends, protection and safety. That displays a certain level of connection to community and nation, as an extension of the personal circle of friends and family. While military service is no indicator of patriotism as an expression of personal nationalistic fervor, the experience of military service imbues citizens with a real-world understanding of the sacrifices that are made daily by those charged with defending the country and its interests. In times of warfare, accepting a military draft as one’s personal commitment to the common welfare is considered to be a matter of duty and responsibility. While there are many reasons why people act to circumvent or avoid such prescriptions, be they political religious, ideological or familial. Within the context of the national corpus, all citizens of a nation could be considered to be more or less responsible to and for that nation, at least according to their level of participation in its institutions leading to the accumulation and enjoyment of its national treasure, wealth and overall indices of political, cultural and social well-being. When a nation’s military is made up of “volunteers” from the lowest economic and social echelons of society, a “free” nation made up of “equals” supposedly represented governmentally by their ‘equals” has lost its way and become representative of the imperatives of a more Oligarchical type of polity.

    I can’t say whether or not National Military Service should be a mainstay in America, as it is in some other countries, but such service does instill a sense of duty within a country’s citizenship that elevates the needs of the whole over the needs of the individual. The cohesion of nations depends upon a shared metanarrational thread that binds disparate peoples together in time and space, and absent that National Myth, multiple cultural narratives compete for primacy, leading to warring factions based upon racial, social or cultural differences. Military service helps to form the parameters of that story. Considering the fact that all National Myths are part-fiction part-truth, their general acceptance as fact by those who believe in them does more to bind a society together than does geographical proximity or economic necessity.

    In my own experience, military bases are the closest this country has come to truly egalitarian societies based upon a merit-based equality that discounts race and ethnicity and relies upon individual achievement in order to determine one’s ability to rise in society. And while this fraternal society has proven imperfect in many facets – as a reflection of the racial and economic trends of the greater society – it is a model that many Americans and non-Americans have used in order to achieve some facsimile of the American Dream. Those who grow up within the auspices of the military lifestyle are often remarked upon as displaying certain characteristics that reflect this upbringing, with a penchant towards egalitarianism, a certain adaptability and gregariousness that reflects their geographically diverse and socially vibrant youths. Upon reaching adulthood and entering the civilian world, either through work or college, the real life prejudices, inequalities and the harshness of the verisimilitudes of unabashed capitalism, racism and classism are often an unexpected wake-up call.

    All of the talking heads, politicians, demagogues and institutional acolytes of various stripes fall somewhere between that one in ten that dons a uniform and those nine in ten that do not, for whatever reason. These designations also include the disillusioned bloggers and conspiratorial dissenters, the counter-culture revolutionaries, righteous anarchists, disaffected libertarians and conflicted rebels who speak derisively of service to the USA and those who take it on, but who have never sacrificed a thought toward the practical defense of – or a day of their lives in the protection of – those they love, let alone those whom they profess to hate. The rights to freedom of expression that form the bedrock of these individuals arguments and derision are the very thing that the soldiers they castigate are fighting to honor and maintain, if not upon the shores – or within the deserts and mountains – of Southwest Asia, then upon the battlefield of their service to an ideal held in common by generations of Americans, no matter the race, ethnicity or creed. Arguments as to the validity of foreign wars fought for corporate gain are often specious in nature and concerned with deflecting attention from the key answer rather than the discomfiting but obvious question. Consider your own reasons for not joining the military, for instance, and extrapolate those as surrogate motives, recognizing that, in the end, and quite probably underlying all other rationalizations, the core reason for not doing so has to do with the possibility of making what soldiers and politicians alike call the Ultimate Sacrifice. Of facing death. Of facing Fear.

    And, considering that this one, overriding and pervasive dread of personal material dissolution is the foundation for so many other dysfunctions in our society, from the personal to the community levels of aggregation, the probability of empathic resonation grows higher. Even soldiers are afraid of dying. If they’re not, we, as a society, tend to think that something’s wrong with them; and something’s wrong with people who can send other people to die without empathizing with those individuals or their families, and who do not recognize – or care – that their own fear of death is shared by others who make the decision to put their lives in other peoples hands, in the end – and beyond all economic considerations – for a higher purpose.

    A higher purpose that is the same purpose that is shared by all of us who want the best for ourselves and our loved ones. Nations represent – to the individual – extended communities, which represent extended families, which represent us. By embracing our countries, we embrace our own highest aspirations. By believing in our countries, we believe in ourselves. And when that embrace fails, and that belief falters, the resulting trauma results in the kind of national and personal moralistic and spiritual dysfunction that afflicts nations on the verge of dissolution, rent within by competing factions and economic failure. Those whose expectations are left crestfallen by the weight of sheer despondency once the truth of much of this nation’s martial history is revealed are, perhaps, justified in their resultant lack of fealty to the national myths. As the legions of the disaffected grow, a certain listlessness and resentment becomes apparent in the national conversation, expressed as a strident, self-righteous indignation and declamation against the abuses of power. This describes the state of these United States, currently. The disillusionment with economic policies and social policies, the disillusionment with the state of racial relations, of sexual relations and of class relations soars as the American dream lies moribund, destroyed by enemies both domestic and foreign.

    It seems that the dream has died; that the spirit has been defeated, until another dream, more encompassing and inclusive, can rise to take its place. Nationhood is a surrogate for a higher brotherhood, sisterhood, person-hood; the union of souls, the agglomeration of humanity as one family. Amongst the family of nations, the United States stands as an exemplar of countries, the one nation in the world founded, if not originally to make a single corpus of all diverse peoples in the world, one which has now taken on that mission in service of a higher form of oneness, even higher than that envisioned by its founding fathers. And yet, regardless of the state of the State, there is something beyond the state that has taken root and that has risen from the ashes of failed national daydreams to encapsulate a world-wide desire for freedom, that has resulted in what is being called the Arab Spring, and what has been expressed around the world as a rising tide of populist sentiment against the depravities of the Elite and the wanton disregard for humanity of the Corporate Overlords and their soulless, multi-national instruments of resource extraction, social and political evisceration and economic destruction. The spirit of personal freedom and of certain inalienable rights that is so much a part of the American expression of individuality, even and perhaps especially amongst those who consider themselves perennially suspicious of all state-sponsored “benefits” and oppressive structures of governmental domination, has become an American export, globalized and fully adaptable to local conditions on the ground wherever economic and social discrepancies, dissent and disillusionment may exist.

    Within the United States, a new people have been born upon the face of the earth, at once fractious and contentious, united and seeking a higher form of consensus. A mixture of racial and ethnic populations have combined to merge old world lineages ancient in delineation, unbinding generations once tied to histories too visceral and immediate to be denied, until, for whatever reason, individuals uprooted themselves voluntarily – or were uprooted involuntarily – to make their way here, to the distant West, the lands of the setting sun. They knew the future, could sense that here, in this land, something special was to Become. Here, they knew, the destiny of their lineages would play out. Here and Now, their descendants engage themselves in the Struggle of the Ages, of employing the Will to Power in order to express that which is most innate and indicative of the intractable and indomitable will of humanity to persevere and beyond that, to thrive and express the very vibrancy of Life and of Creation itself.

    The strength of Freedom has worked its magic upon bonds of dna and blood, creating new, genetic alliances, hybrid racial and ethnic groups of renewed vigor, a reality that is reflected in other nations around the world, but in none so intensely as in the United States of America. Old ideas of purity and hierarchical relationships between Masters and slaves, Rulers and the ruled, Owners and the owned, Haves and have-nots are crumbling beneath the overwhelming insistence of life itself upon the equality of incarnation, of new social and economic realities, of new understandings of the nature of consciousness and what it is to be human, as the world around us cries out for succor from the madness of the current Age. The result of these new, alchemical machinations is yet to be seen, but these portentous times awaken the inner call toward the manifestation of the highest of destinies, speaking at the collective level to all that is best, and worst, in humanity. Nations rise and fall, but the bonds that bind us in time and space remain, strengthened by the lives and love that we share, mostly unknowing, building aspirations with the mortar of hopes and dreams, soaring skyward manifest as a rainbow-hued bridge of light between the hallowed past and boundless and brilliant Future.

  36. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to Mark For This Post:

    bram (28th November 2012), donk (28th November 2012), enfoldedblue (28th November 2012), Grumpy Cat (28th November 2012), Kiforall (28th November 2012), mosquito (28th November 2012), Sebastion (27th November 2012), spiritguide (27th November 2012), spiritwind (27th November 2012), TargeT (28th November 2012), TOTHE (28th November 2012), WanderingRogue (27th November 2012)

Page 1 of 3 1 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts