Who are the 24 Elders, A revelation

[Billy]

It is the weekend, so i have some time to continue with Tom expressing the difficult process that humans have blending the spiritual with the physical.

JOHN: I gather that this was the single planet in which you had this kind of difficulty?

Tom: Yes. This is the only planet that has created a bottleneck. The souls that live on Planet Earth, in their soul-recycling and reincarnations, refuse to leave Planet Earth. Each of the planets upon which they exist or on which they have a birth is for some form of teaching that they do not further themselves. There is temptation, there is greed and there is desire.

JOHN: How did this problem start in the first place, and how was it not checked earlier?

Tom: It happened because we were not aware of the problems that the physical would create, and the feeling of heaviness and of pleasure. This is the only planet in the Universe that has the physical qualifications that create this problem. It does not have a sister planet, nor a brother planet.

JOHN: It is the most dense of inhabited planets in the Universe?

Tom: Yes.

ANDREW: I would think there was this desire and pleasure problem, it could all be traced to the role of say one atomic element, like sodium for example, or something like that. Have you traced it down to something like that?

Tom: I will consult… I have been informed that the problem is created within the soul of the individual. Earth is a dense planet, and it in turn then gives a different felling to the body – but it is actually within the soul of the individual.

ANDREW: So you are saying then that the dense material can really
influence the soul that much? I didn’t think it was possible.

Tom: It feels pain, it feels pleasure, it feels sorrow, it feels happiness. The physical body has a different feeling on Earth than in all of the other planets, and in all the other souls that exist. In other systems, in other galaxies, there are other physical beings that do not have the density of you on Earth. On your planet the soul begins to feel different from what it felt before, and it has the feel of pleasure and desire.

On another occasion, in reply to the same line of questioning, the Nine gave the following example:

ANDREW: Why do souls get stuck on Planet Earth?

Tom: The stuckness is brought about by gravity density and the illusion that the gravity density is reality. The stuckness is emotional: it derives from the inability to remove self from self in the gravitational density. When you remove self from self it creates an unblocking so the emotional gravitational density may be relieved, and the true reality may be viewed. This planet was created to be the paradise and in order for Earth to have all its variety it was necessary to make of it a gravitational density.

ANDREW: Are you saying that for our growth, for our evolution, that gravity is one of the things we must come to terms with, and hopefully conquer it?

Tom: What is important is to balance yourself. It is the merging of the physical with the spiritual that is the manifest purpose of humankind. But humankind has confused itself by remaining in its density and not correctly viewing the nature of its spiritual self.

It is misinterpreted and misguided by some of the religious leaders of your world, who attempt to control humankind – and the religions that would wish to deny the physical are not in balance, as also are those of the physical who wish to deny the spiritual.

For some souls, their choosing to be born in this time was not in the evolutionary process of growth for themselves, but in service to this Planet, to bring about the importance of understanding Earth's place in the Universe and of the human beings upon it. There are many who have come to Earth at this time, who chose to come here for the necessity of the Universe, to help, yes.

ANDREW: As we understand from our scientific point of view, is the relationship between gravity as a force and mind as a force where the balance is supposed to occur?

Tom: When you accept, understand in totality, with complete trust and faith in self, in your connections with the Universe, then you bring about the balance and are no longer in bondage. Through the mental process of mind. If you disconnect the mind from what it is holding on to, it will be free. This disconnecting can go by stages, so that you can develop trust and faith in your ability to maintain your inner connection with the Universe. Then you will be free. When the critical mass begins in humankind, when enough of your souls are becoming free, then the space vehicle of Earth moves into its evolutionary fulfillment.

ANDREW: How close are we to that kind of evolutionary time process?

Tom: Know this, that with acceleration due to each human's involvement, it will come quickly and will not be in devastation, as it would be if such acceleration came by itself, by force of circumstance, without your involvement.

ANDREW: That's beautiful.

Tom: You understand, when there is a change that is coming upon Earth, and when there is a loosening up of confinement, that which confines attempts desperately to confine even more?

JOHN: Yes.

Tom: Know this: you all have come to Earth to beautify it, to purify it, to love it and to be in joy with it. Know this: that in your time, through your and others' dedication, through the quality of your being upon Planet Earth, you may bring it to the fulfillment of its creation. That for us is a great joy and we thank you.

The cosmic aspect of this drama is to save Earth in which many souls are trapped. Without the saving of this planet neither we, nor you, know how many thousands or hundreds of thousands of your years, that this planet will then be in a stagnant state. We do not truly know the results of what will happen to the souls of those that are trapped. You understand a sickness, a disease, can spread if it not controlled?

ANDREW: Yes.

Tom: Do you understand that if this not controlled and is not handled properly, that this may then contaminate the rest of the Universe? Are you aware of that potential?

ANDREW. Well, from what you tell us, yes. We don't know from our own experience of course.

Tom: Do you also know that if the entire Universe was contaminated and if the contamination manifested - all that is good, all that is love would be destroyed - are you aware of this?

ANDREW: No, we were not aware of this.

Tom: Because if this contamination should spread from this small physical planet Earth to the rest of the Universe, then all the souls will live in fear and hate, with no hope, in darkness. And there may not be many of us then that can take care of the situation, if it develops to that point.

IRENE: One of the questions that I wanted to ask had to do with this notion of human suffering, and how it came about. I understand that when humans first walked in innocence, there was probably no human suffering. How did it come about, what has its purpose been? Is its purpose tied to the fear that man has of evolving? Why does it exist?

Tom: First know this: Earth is the only planet in the entire Universe of choice. Humankind first walked with the gods, and you know the story of the temptation of the tree of life: they were tempted to experience the joy of unity with the oneness of creation. Then the Creator said 'That is forbidden to you.' Nevertheless permitted the choice to be made if humankind so chose. They did that choosing.

From that day forward, it is not the Creator that has punished, but humankind has punished itself, for they touched in truth the knowledge of who they were, and it frightened them, for they knew that they were not in the state to comprehend completely. It became necessary then to populate Earth, so that all the cells of the Creator could become individuals and free souls, in order for them to become one in unity and harmony by choice.

Therefore also Earth is the only planet of conscience, and people chose to feel the emotion of sadness that they had destroyed that trust that was placed in them, and they began then to sacrifice self and their children. It is time to end this farce of sacrifice, for that is what it is, it keeps them in bondage. Release humankind!

IRENE: So some religious leaders then exploited this guilt?

Tom: Exactly. They exploited, for it was a means of holding people in bondage. Listen carefully: when there is one who understands the energies of all the created and how they may utilize those energies to make themselves a god, then they keep people in bondage.

End of my selected text from chapter 7. "Life on earth" Next Chapter 8. Accelerating Earth Evolution


Peace

[Billy]

Chapter 8. Accelerating Earth Evolution

The first part of this chapter addresses specific issues and then when Irene joins in the discussions take a philosophical turn, as she explores with Tom, various ideas and attitudes. The chapter lives up to its title, it feels as if it is speeding up....

JOHN: I think the most important question to people on Earth at this time is, what can they as individuals do, and how can they as individuals make things different, so that our planet fulfils its destiny?

Tom: First and foremost they must recognize that each of them contains the entire universe within themselves. Each of them contains all creation. Therefore when they understand that, then hopefully they will understand that if they go against their own integrity, the integrity of the Universe may be affected.

They must consult within themselves for their motive in all actions; they must learn to love themselves, and the only way they may love themselves is never to do what they will dislike themselves for. What is important is that each person upon this planet earth must understand that there is existence elsewhere.

They must understand that they hold the key to the evolutionary process in the Universe. It is a time of awakening. It is a time to understand that within the self they hold the key for bringing Earth to its fulfillment and that free will is never interfered with; the destruction of Planet Earth is not necessary. This must be understood clearly, for the free will of humankind can bring fulfilment to Earth.

JOHN: Many have talked of a coming transformation, and it seems we are approaching this time. Can you say anything about such a transformation and what that means?

Tom: It is true that Earth is on the threshold of transformation. It is on the threshold of releasing souls and beings from bondage, so they may continue to elevate, and purify Earth so the Universe may continue its path.
It is a glorious time right now to live on your planet in physical form. Know always that this energy of individuals will remain individual, but what will be understood is the power of thought, the energy of love, the power that humans hold within themselves to make your world a representation of the Universe. Your world is a glorious place for all portions of the Universe to exist, and to fulfill, and to be at one with creation, in great joy.

JOHN: If you had one message that you wished to pass to all of mankind, what would that message be?

Tom: Know fully that you hold the key within yourself, each of you humans, to bring about change. It is your responsibility, your free will, your choice.

Peace

[Billy]

Tom: A few sources know all of the picture, and many know parts of it. But be careful when they make you glorious: always challenge, look for consistency, and never accept that that goes against your natural inclination or your higher intuitive self.

Be careful they do not feed your ego in order to manipulate you, for there are also those who would wish the destruction of Planet Earth. Do not fall into the trap that Planet Earth will be destroyed.
In your world there are many that speak, many that bring forth information: we bring forth to you information that has not been brought forth in time past, and it is the next step of forward evolutionary movement.

It is important for the peoples upon Planet Earth to understand they are not alone, and that they carry within them the coding that can evolve Planet Earth to achieve its proper purpose Remember this: those who seek to control are in high profile in the front of society and lead people in a direction that helps them evade their own responsibility. But bear in mind that acceleration is now absolutely important. We have come to the beginning of acceleration of evolutionary forwardness of Planet Earth.

There is a great necessity to accelerate, for the oceans of Planet Earth, the trees and forests, the skies and atmospheres, the very essence of breathing, the life-force, have reached a level of contamination bringing the downward destruction of Earth. We call upon your energies and commitment for alerting the peoples of this planet, the governments of Earth and the communities of Earth. The innermost core of humankind is beginning to grow and to glow. The essence and understanding of their beginnings is awakening, to bring about change.

You are part of that change. You are children of that change, you are responsible for that change. Without your commitment to acceleration, if the change were to come in its own time, without your input, then the planet would be in a situation in which most of humankind could not exist. Accept your ability to create the pattern that brings about understanding and the truth of who you are.

Earth was created to be the paradise of all paradise in its perfection. It is time for forgiveness, forgiveness of self: for humankind to understand that to maintain fear and dissension is to maintain annihilation. Humankind has begun the process of annihilation. Yet there is a great future for the fulfillment of the destiny of Earth.

Accept that you have a part to play in bringing it to fulfillment. You have no limitation. Your limits and boundaries are created only by your fears. This does not mean that you should climb a thousand meter mountain and then plunge off it. It means that you must have practical application of understanding of yourself, in truth. It means that you must begin to extend yourself in the capacities of your mind and thoughts.

Your physical bodies have limitations upon this physical planet, but your minds and thoughts can expand and grow, touch all corners of the Universe. And when it understands the truth of self, it can relieve the burdens of this physical world that have held it in bondage. You humans are a kaleidoscope, and will appear at times confused - yet with one turn you can become elements of beauty and purity, and with that you may travel the spheres of the Universe.


(Given in 1978)

ANDREW: You used an interesting phrase earlier, that "time is accelerating". What's the real meaning of the acceleration of time?

Tom: If this planet were to pursue its course in the way it is doing, without acceleration, then you know that that would bring destruction

ANDREW: Yes.

Tom: What is now accelerating, due to the meditations humans have done on this planet Earth, is the beginning of the acceleration of time, which then creates the situation that Earth becomes a lightspace vehicle, and humankind will become suddenly aware. It will be similar to the 'hundredth monkey effect' beginning. So if you now begin to understand the power of meditations in small groups such as yours, you can change the world.

And in 1989 this question was asked, concerning famine:

ANDREW: One of the things I observe is that there is more and more hunger on this planet, and riots because of the shortage of food and high prices. What can little people like us do in that particular area?

Tom: It is not necessary for anyone upon this planet to die from lack of nourishment. It is only because of ignorance, or because of the governments of the world attempting to control others. We will not permit the extinction of any groups of humans. You understand? But you must now incorporate it in your meditations - through meditation you may prevent the destruction.

End Quote:

Have A blessed Solstice everyone. This is a time when the Light shines longer and brighter.

Shine on and Peace be with you all.

[AwakeInADream]

It's a good job we didn't all buy into that MSM Hollywood disaster movie version of 2012.
It's because we had our eyes open and saw the Solstice and the Mayan thing as a beneficial event in consciousness that everything turned out beautifully.
Everyone who has tried to prepare themselves spiritually for this event has benefited greatly from the journey.

The MSM has failed in their attempt to twist our beliefs and perceptions into creating a lower version of reality.
Look where we are now. Anything is possible!

I've always believed in the power of Group Meditation and how reality is shaped by everyone's thoughts and beliefs.
Like Jesus said we can move mountains!

I think it would be cool if some of us got together and agreed to make something wonderful happen in this way.
It's just a question of 'what should we create?'

[Lifebringer]

All the prophets of this 26,000 year cycle that have been inspired by God to lead or guide the people. There are martyrs and prophets who died in the line of service to God.

At least that's what I'm told by my guide. He hasn't been wrong yet.

[AwakeInADream]

I've found the number 24 in Hinduism too in the 'Gayatri Mantra' and it's effects on the 24 centers (Chakras?) of the body:

[Billy]

Posted by noxon medem (here)

Posted by billyji (here)
(quote edited)
...
Tom: It is difficult in your physical world for you to truly understand the importance of both. I will try to explain in a manner in which you may understand. It would be similar to a giant scale. We are in the pivot of this giant scale. Visualize the Universe with the pivot being us. On one side of the Universe, visualize that all is negative, and all on the other side is positive. And as you see this, you know that there is a complete out-of-balance situation. It is difficult for us to explain this so that you may understand. Within each of the sides there are many ... I will explain it in earthly terms: As each of the galaxies and solar systems within the galaxies… first I must clarify: The Universe, with the Nine in the centre, has four sides, the side opposite that in which you exist and the other two are all in balance. Do you understand?
...

Inspiring reading. Made me think of a short film
I seen some years ago. Found it and here it is:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=1CTesYaduBA

https://youtube.com/watch?v=1CTesYaduBA

Balance - Animation short film, released in 1989.
Directed and produced by Wolfgang and Christoph Lauenstein
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_%28film%29

A supplement to all the words.
This can illustrate many things,
from group dynamics to bigger issues.

Be well.

nm

Thank you for you're post NM. I enjoyed the short video.
To me this is the history of humanity presented in silence in under 8mins.

Quote: from video description

Balance is a German animated film, released in 1989. It was directed and produced by twin brothers Wolfgang and Christoph Lauenstein.

The film depicts five individuals living on a small platform floating in space. Whenever one of them moves, the others must do so as well to ensure that the platform does not tip over. The group works cooperatively to maintain a "balance" until one individual pulls a box onto the platform. Since all are curious as to what the box is, the individuals try to inspect the box and their actions disrupt the balance of the platform, and those on it. All but one of the individuals is pushed or falls off the edges of the platform. In the end, the lone individual must maintain a balance with the box, which is well out of reach.

Balance' won the Academy Award for Best Animated Short of 1989.


peace

[Billy]

[/COLOR]

Posted by AwakeInADream (here)
I've found the number 24 in Hinduism too in the 'Gayatri Mantra' and it's effects on the 24 centers (Chakras?) of the body:

Thank you Awake. Yes the number 24 is significant in Hinduism.
The 24 principles of creation. http://www.hinduwebsite.com/24principles.asp

The 24 Gurus of Dattatreya http://www.hindu-blog.com/2009/12/gu...gs-twenty.html

Dattatreya: I have 24 gurus.

King: Twenty-four gurus at such a tender age? Who are they?

Dattatreya: Mother earth is my first guru. She taught me to hold those who trample me, scratch me, and hurt me lovingly in my heart, just as she does. She taught me to give them my best, remembering that their acts are normal and natural from their standpoint.

peace

[araucaria]

@billyjl: I am extremely wary when I read things like 'the earth is the most (whatever) planet in the universe'. It can be a pretty special place without being anywhere near that special. And why would we need other places to be less special anyway? It reminds me of the 'greatest of all time' debates you get in sport - frankly pretty meaningless. I'd appreicate any thoughts on that.

[AwakeInADream]

Posted by araucaria (here)
@billyjl: I am extremely wary when I read things like 'the earth is the most (whatever) planet in the universe'. It can be a pretty special place without being anywhere near that special. And why would we need other places to be less special anyway? It reminds me of the 'greatest of all time' debates you get in sport - frankly pretty meaningless. I'd appreicate any thoughts on that.

I've heard it said by many that this is both the greatest and yet most difficult planet to incarnate on,
which is like saying that Earth is at the centre of the Universe (something we should have grown out of by now).

I agree with Araucaria, why is Earth so special?

I feel that some of these channeled messages might be a little over coloured by ego in this respect.
I mean this is a great planet, but I really hope that this isn't as good as it gets.

Edit: Thank's for those great links BillyJ!

Has anyone ever thought (like I have), that Krishna and Christos
may have been the same being, just different incarnations?
Maybe the Buddha too?

Just something I wonder about sometimes...

Edit2: I forgot to say Merry Christmas Everyone!

[Billy]

Posted by araucaria (here)
@billyjl: I am extremely wary when I read things like 'the earth is the most (whatever) planet in the universe'. It can be a pretty special place without being anywhere near that special. And why would we need other places to be less special anyway? It reminds me of the 'greatest of all time' debates you get in sport - frankly pretty meaningless. I'd appreicate any thoughts on that.

The quote i think you refer to is " Only planet of it's kind" I do not think that being one of a kind makes it any more "Special" than any other planet. You personally are uniquely one of a kind but are no more special than the person you pass in the street. Therefore none are more or less special than the other. Only uniquely individual. like yourself. like this planet as with all universal beings and all planets in the universe.

what makes our earth one of a kind compared with other worlds, is the physical density and the effect that has on the souls that incarnate on this planet of choice. Humans find it difficult to merge their spiritual being within the density of the physical being. Plus not remembering who they are exaggerates the illusion that the physical is the only reality that exists.

see post 121 at top of this page for more.


Peace

[Billy]

Posted by AwakeInADream (here)
I agree with Araucaria, why is Earth so special?

Answered above.

Posted by AwakeInADream (here)
I mean this is a great planet, but I really hope that this isn't as good as it gets.

No way Brother. This is just the beginning. We cannot comprehend how good it can get. But we have lots of work to do first.


Edit: Thank's for those great links BillyJ!

Posted by AwakeInADream (here)
Has anyone ever thought (like I have), that Krishna and Christos
may have been the same being, just different incarnations?
Maybe the Buddha too?

Just something I wonder about sometimes...

Yes when the time comes we will be surprised how many of the enlightened beings that have incarnated on earth are all one and the same.

Posted by AwakeInADream (here)
Edit2: I forgot to say Merry Christmas Everyone!

Merry Christmas returned. May the light shine through you to all corners of the universe.

Peace

[PurpleLama]

I would say these days, everybody and their cats say that they are communicating with the Council of Nine.

I have nine cats. Uh--oh.

[Billy]

Posted by PurpleLama (here)

I would say these days, everybody and their cats say that they are communicating with the Council of Nine.

I have nine cats. Uh--oh.

Nine cats, how cool, Is one a TOM

[araucaria]

"Earth is the only planet in the entire Universe of choice" remains an extraordinary claim in a universe measuring at least trillions of cubic light years. It is a variant on the idea that we are alone in the universe.

I accept that the probabilty of anyone or anything existing is vanishingly small and yet we are here. I am unique of course, but I am not the only human with ten fingers or whatever. Choice is simply the outcome of a finite view of infinity and should be, not necessarily as common as finite systems, but pretty common all the same, and certainly not a one-off.

I am also unhappy reading the phrase "hundredth monkey" in something purportedly dating from 1978. It predates general availiability of the term in the literature. Wikipedia: "The story of the hundredth monkey effect was published in Lyall Watson's foreword to Lawrence Blair's Rhythms of Vision in 1975,[2] and spread with the appearance of Watson's 1979 book Lifetide."

[modwiz]

Posted by araucaria (here)
"Earth is the only planet in the entire Universe of choice" remains an extraordinary claim in a universe measuring at least trillions of cubic light years. It is a variant on the idea that we are alone in the universe.

I accept that the probabilty of anyone or anything existing is vanishingly small and yet we are here. I am unique of course, but I am not the only human with ten fingers or whatever. Choice is simply the outcome of a finite view of infinity and should be, not necessarily as common as finite systems, but pretty common all the same, and certainly not a one-off.

I am also unhappy reading the phrase "hundredth monkey" in something purportedly dating from 1978. It predates general availiability of the term in the literature. Wikipedia: "The story of the hundredth monkey effect was published in Lyall Watson's foreword to Lawrence Blair's Rhythms of Vision in 1975,[2] and spread with the appearance of Watson's 1979 book Lifetide."

The many cliches are getting boring. If someone wants my attention they will have to try harder than that!

Hearing the phrase "fiscal cliff" make me want to hurl the user off of a real one while telling them their father stank of elderberries. LOL.

[modwiz]

Posted by AwakeInADream (here)

I agree with Araucaria, why is Earth so special?

Edit2: I forgot to say Merry Christmas Everyone!

Earth is special in a Special Olympics kind of way. The way George W Bush was 'special'.

[AwakeInADream]

Posted by modwiz (here)
The way George W Bush was 'special'.

LOL literally!

[Billy]

Posted by araucaria (here)
"Earth is the only planet in the entire Universe of choice" remains an extraordinary claim in a universe measuring at least trillions of cubic light years. It is a variant on the idea that we are alone in the universe.



I accept that the probabilty of anyone or anything existing is vanishingly small and yet we are here. I am unique of course, but I am not the only human with ten fingers or whatever. Choice is simply the outcome of a finite view of infinity and should be, not necessarily as common as finite systems, but pretty common all the same, and certainly not a one-off.

araucaria it appears that you have not read the OP and previous comments in depth. The title of the thread itself refers to the 24 universal civilizations that exist. This thread states clearly many times that we are not alone in the universe.

Like i said earlier. There are many other planets that have civilizations but they do not have the density and free will of choice to choose a negative or positive outcome. Noting that a positive outcome can only manifest by balancing both negative and positive.

Posted by billyji (here)

It is important for the peoples upon Planet Earth to understand they are not alone, and that they carry within them the coding that can evolve Planet Earth to achieve its proper purpose.

Posted by araucaria (here)
I am also unhappy reading the phrase "hundredth monkey" in something purportedly dating from 1978. It predates general availiability of the term in the literature. Wikipedia: "The story of the hundredth monkey effect was published in Lyall Watson's foreword to Lawrence Blair's Rhythms of Vision in 1975,[2] and spread with the appearance of Watson's 1979 book Lifetide."

1. The hundreth monkey experiment began in 1952.

2. Ken Keyes was inspired by the story of the hundredth monkey from a writing by Rupert Sheldrake. On his idea of morphic resonance.

3. The transmissions of the only planet of choice began in 1972 and ended more than 20yrs later in the early 1990's. the book was published in 1993.

4. later Palden Jenkings created Hundredth Monkey Project.
http://www.palden.co.uk/m100/ma-hist1.html

How it all started

M100 was conceived and created by Palden Jenkins in 1994-95. Many friends and associates with skills and experience from earlier ventures joined in to make a formidable volunteer team. The main annual retreat, a week-long camp, is complex to run, and this rolling team has done it so well that the camps have looked deceptively easy to run!

Palden is a writer, book- and website-editor, educationalist, historian and social inventor. He founded the Glastonbury Gatherings in 1983 and the OakDragon Camps in 1987, both of which were precursors to this project.

In the early 90s he compiled the noted book The Only Planet of Choice (1st edn, 1993) for the Council of Nine - a sourcebook for the project. His ideas on world healing are outlined extensively in Healing the Hurts of Nations, published free.

He's a 1960s veteran. The impetus for the M100 project began when he was involved in student politics at the LSE. He realised that social change could not occur fruitfully without a fundamental inner change in humanity, and thus he set out on a path of transformation during the 1970s. This led him to the mountains of Wales, to death's door, to the feet of Tibetan Lamas and to the forests of Sweden.

After a time of tragedy, he settled in Glastonbury in 1980, soon to start the Glastonbury Gatherings, which grew into the Glastonbury Camps. These were the seed-point from which grew many different organisations and new community and spiritual activities continuing to this day. The OakDragon Camps, started in 1987, represented a second generation of consciousness-raising camps.


Palden's involvement with the Council of Nine confirmed and added to his understanding of the state of the world and what he had to do. At one point, when talking to the Nine, they said that they needed more people to work with them by practicing meditation to heal the world,

Palden made an inner promise to use his abilities to pull people together into larger groups to do this. By 1994, drawing on the experience of the camps of the 1980s, he set the Hundredth Monkey process into motion, calling on old friends and new. The first M100 event took place near Malvern in England, attended by 150 people, lasting a week.
End Quote:

Before asking any more questions please read the thread as most of the answers to you're questions are already here.

peace

[araucaria]

@billyjl, please do not take my remarks as spoken in ignorance without reading your thread. My issue stands: what you call the universe is at best our galactic backyard, and I feel uncomfortable enough with that kind of confusion to withdraw from this discussion without further ado.
Peace to you