what if the whole '2012' things are not *real* and just a mere wishful-thinking?

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
A lot of that math is beyond me, but it appears according to this that both the Sun's gravity and / or a planet's satellite(s) can also cause "forced precession".

Beyond me too .

But, yes, from that article it would appear that there are several precessions involved. The earth is not a rigid billiard ball, but rather a flexing structure of varying densities, spinning at an angle in a complex gravity field formed by the sun and moon in particular.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=8yRdDnrB5kM

Jerry Lee Lewis - Whole Lotta Shakin' Going On (1957)

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
A lot of that math is beyond me, but it appears according to this that both the Sun's gravity and / or a planet's satellite(s) can also cause "forced precession".

Beyond me too .

But, yes, from that article it would appear that there are several precessions involved. The earth is not a rigid billiard ball, but rather a flexing structure of varying densities, spinning at an angle in a complex gravity field formed by the sun and moon in particular.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=8yRdDnrB5kM

Jerry Lee Lewis - Whole Lotta Shakin' Going On (1957)

You keep adding that .. it doesn't flex that much or it'd be natural disaster day every day Also keep in mind the ocean movements have settled into equilibrium.

Addition: Also, from what I have seen of the abilities of the ancients, I would not be surprised if they could calculate aberrations in the Earth's precession if there are any. So While I do find Amzer's Source very intriguing ... I'm going to stand by my thoughts for now -- the Earth does Precess, and the ancients knew about it. My 2 cents

[SilentFeathers]

I sometimes wonder if this whole 12-21-2012 thing was thought up by a couple of dudes tripping on acid while they were fixated and starring at the Aztec calendar disc.....thinking it was Mayan

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
I found this for consideration: But it will take a little time to grasp all this math ... http://astro.cornell.edu/academics/c...and_Forced.pdf

Notice that most of this paper's calculations involve more rapid cycles, such as of 306 days, 434 days or 18 years, and seems to involve more substantial comparisons between what's calculated and what's observed.

When it comes to the "long count" precession cycle, they presume the 25,600 yrs cycle length (taking it as "observed")

The observed precession rate of the Earth’s spin axis is ... corresponding to a period of 25,600 yrs.

and then find a decent correlation of the "polar moment of inertia of the Earth" calculated from this "observed" rate with that inferred by the Darwin-Radau approximation of the Earth’s rotational flattening. All of which leads me a bit confused, but unclear as to whether their observations inform us one way or the other as to the essential cause and nature of this long count precession cycle.

[DeDukshyn]

I wouldn't even know where to begin combining the two equations ...

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
the Earth does Precess, and the ancients knew about it.

As observed against the celestial background, the position of the sun at the times of the various soltices and equinoxes surely does change over an approximately 25,600 year cycle. That I am convinced is true, and was known to the ancients (or to whomever was informing them.) For example, the sun is in the constellation Sagittarius at about the time of our present winter solstice (shortest days in Northern hemisphere), but in 13,000 years, the sun will be in whatever constellation is half way around (Gemini?).

Since Sagittarius is in the general direction of our galaxy's core from here, this means that the earth is on what I called above the "back side" of the sun at this time of year, in current times, but the earth will be on the "front side" of the sun 13,000 years from now when it is winter in the Northern hemispheres.

This is what is the essential observation that is described as the 26,000 precession ... that the earth's seasons cycle, relative to the alignment of the earth, sun and celestrial background, on about a 26,000 cycle.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
the Earth does Precess, and the ancients knew about it.

As observed against the celestial background, the position of the sun at the times of the various soltices and equinoxes surely does change over an approximately 25,600 year cycle. That I am convinced is true, and was known to the ancients (or to whomever was informing them.) For example, the sun is in the constellation Sagittarius at about the time of our present winter solstice (shortest days in Northern hemisphere), but in 13,000 years, the sun will be in whatever constellation is half way around (Gemini?).

Yes, this is what I understand -- all Astrology is actually based around the precession. Part of the original argument came from something I interpreted from one of Amzer's posts. But I may have misunderstood him - I sometimes do.


Addition:
It appears to me that the 21st may be a marker for something that occurs on a completion of a precessional cycle -- some sort of alignment that does something or is a marker for something. "Something to do with the Sun" as one Mayan elder put it.

So even though people are saying that the Sun lined up with the center of the galaxy in '98. Maybe the center isn't what the alignment about, but that became the term used because it was close and was a concept all could understand, as opposed to whatever it really might be. People take things to literally

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
all Astrology is actually based around the precession

I don't know jack about astrology ... but yeah ... I suspect you're exactly right.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
all Astrology is actually based around the precession

I don't know jack about astrology ... but yeah ... I suspect you're exactly right.

Well not "real" astrology -- but mechanics ...

Consider the precession divided into 12 sections and assign each a "sign". Each of these signs is represented by a constellation in the sky -- each constellation represents ~2160 years and due to prescession, each one aligns specifically to say a monument every ~2160. This is like a giant clock for determining what part of the precession the Earth is in -- like a giant clock -- almost exactly.

The Mayan Calendar is very similar, but it seems to mark a point in t ime along the precessional path ... at least this is how I understand it.

One thing is for certain .. the Ancients felt the need to track extremely long periods of time ... Now I reconsider the biblical takes of men living to a 1000 years old. It all makes one think a bit

ADDITION:

Also consider the Sphinx .. consider the lions head was carved over by an overly proud king. Consider it represents the age of Leo. Consider the era of man's history of Cow and Bull worship -- Taurus. Consider the era of the man named Jesus "The fisher of men" and consider the association of the Pisces symbol to Christianity -- his birth lines up with the start of the age of Pisces. Consider many of the great monuments and histories tell us what era they are from by context.

And also consider how wrong we got the timelines

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
And also consider how wrong we got the timelines

That's for sure.

[DeDukshyn]

The Age of Aquarius!!! The Era we poisoned our oceans!!!! hehehe

Or maybe the next flood ... lol!

(but also ... it might make sense to put the era of the Biblical (and Sumerian, and South American) "flood" into this timeframe ... ~25,000 years ago)

[Hervé]

Ok... let me attempt to 'splain simply...

This is the assumption about earth's axis motion to fit the observation of the slight mis-alignment at the equinoxes (i.e. with no precessioning, the background sky in which the sun, considered fixed or immobile, is positionned would always be in the same spot, that is, no change) of the sun position from the previous year:

Precessional movement of the Earth. The Earth rotates (white arrows) once a day about its axis of rotation (red). This axis itself rotates slowly (white circle), completing a rotation in approximately 26,000 years.

Earth's precession was historically called precession of the equinoxes because the equinoxes moved westward along the ecliptic relative to the fixed stars, opposite to the motion of the Sun along the ecliptic.

The stars viewed from earth are seen to proceed in a procession from east to west on a daily basis, due to the earth’s diurnal motion, and on a yearly basis, due to the earth’s revolution around the sun. At the same time the stars can be observed to move slightly retrograde, at the rate of about 50 arc seconds per year, a phenomenon known as the “precession of the equinox".

So, if the above were true, a similar mismatch of timing at "equinox" or "solstice" times with respect to Sirius should also be happening, right?

Well, the observations demonstrate that it doesn't!

Because, taking Sirius as reference for "Sirius Equinoxes/Solstices" and their timing indicate that "Sirius tropical year" = "Sirius sidereal year."

Hence, the earth, herself is not "precessioning." If it were, then "Sirius tropical year" ≠ "Sirius sidereal year."

Since the earth is NOT precessioning, well, then... it's got to be the sun that's moving around the Zodiac... that escaped the chaps who started measuring the Sidereal Time and the Sidereal Year since their data should have told them that the earth rotation is fairly stable and constant (except for nutations and other minor disturbances) and that the earth's rotation axis is also fairly fixed, stable and constant with respect to distant, "fixed" stars.

Sidereal time vs solar time. Above left: a distant star (the small red circle) and the Sun are at culmination, on the local meridian. Centre: only the distant star is at culmination (a mean sidereal day). Right: few minutes later the Sun is on the local meridian again. A solar day is complete.

A sidereal year is the time taken by the Earth to orbit the Sun once with respect to the fixed stars. Hence it is also the time taken for the Sun to return to the same position with respect to the fixed stars after apparently travelling once around the ecliptic. It was equal to 365.256363004 SI days[1] (equivalent to 1 year, 6 hours, and 9.1626 minutes), at noon 1 January 2000 (J2000.0). This is 20m24.5128s longer than the mean tropical year at J2000.0.[1] The word "sidereal" is derived from the Latin sidus meaning "star".

A tropical year (also known as a solar year), for general purposes, is the length of time that the Sun takes to return to the same position in the cycle of seasons, as seen from Earth; for example, the time from vernal equinox to vernal equinox, or from summer solstice to summer solstice. Because of the precession of the equinoxes, the seasonal cycle does not remain exactly synchronized with the position of the Earth in its orbit around the Sun. As a consequence, the tropical year is about 20 minutes shorter than the time it takes Earth to complete one full orbit around the Sun as measured with respect to the fixed stars (the sidereal year).

Vernal equinox and autumnal equinox: these classical names are direct derivatives of Latin (ver = spring and autumnus = autumn).

March equinox and September equinox: a usage becoming the preferred standard by technical writers choosing to avoid Northern Hemisphere bias (implied by assuming that March is in the springtime and September is autumnal—true for those in the Northern Hemisphere but exactly opposite in the Southern Hemisphere).

Accordingly, all the mathematical attempts to explain and predict the phenomena are just unnecessarily complicated formulas square pegs made to fit round holes of theories.

[Ultima Thule]

What if the whole 2012 is not real was the question?
I figure it is near impossible to find out: think of yourself at around midnight, with no clock whatsoever, can you tell the exact moment when the day changes to the next? What is the difference between one minute before midnight and one minute past midnight?
21st december 2012 might be a significant moment where one cycle ends and the next one begins - how can you feel or distinguish whether something has happened or not as the analogical "daybreak" is in distant future? People will be quick to dismiss it as another 2K-nonsense and might be very wrong to do so, as the possible signs of change might not be apparent in their lifetime..
Oh well, one thing is for sure(or not) - the day will grow longer and the summer is once again starting its return to northern hemisphere.

UT