A minor aside on bullying

[music]

Is Avalon just a mini version of the corrupted wider world, with the same ego and fear-driven power plays, or should we expect it to be a model of a better world?

Do you find yourself scanning the list of online members for a certain name? If you find this name do you go offline and decide to come back later? Does the presence of a certain name on a thread deter you from posting on it? Does the appearance of a certain name on your thread make your palms sweat? Do you feel afraid to express yourself for fear that a certain member will tear a strip off you and make you look a fool? If the answer is NO, then my comments elsewhere on bullying were NOT intended for you. Save your comments of “Oh, but I never feel that”, because even though you personally do not feel intimidated by someone on this forum, this does not mean that bullying does not exist here. There ARE people for whom those questions are all too relevant; there ARE people who feel fear at the thought of attracting the attention of a particular member.

Just because YOU are OK, please do not assume that EVERYONE is OK. If you do not have the courage to stand up to a bully, then the very least you can do is try not to endorse or encourage their behaviour. If you are blind to bullying behaviour for whatever reason (and there are many), consider refraining from commenting whenever the B word is discussed – you will have nothing useful to say.

MOD EDIT: Image removed.

[Arpheus]

When i was a kid around 13 or so there was this kid in my school who was a bully, he was a nightmare to a lot of kids, one day he decided to pick on me for whatever reason even though i didnt even know him and never gave him a reason to do so,i wasnt in a good mood that day so i beat him up LOL,funny thing is after that he never bullied anyone else again.

[RunningDeer]

Thank you for posting, Music.

It's okay to disagree even with a side order of panache. Respectful discourse creates higher energetics for which pure ideas and solutions are discovered.

I posted these elsewhere:

"If awakened people choose not to take the high road, then how can we expect those that are still asleep to have any desire to change?"

"Any one that tears someone down to build themselves up is in no position to lead or teach. One that interferes with the greater message and community, one that chooses a communication style to counter or control the audience with subtle to overt methods is a small minded bully."

Solutions? Personal responsibility. Awareness checks. Time for little tweaks in awareness. Be accountable for our own actions.

[panopticon]

I couldn't agree more Music.

The more we point out that certain discursive behaviours are inappropriate the safer it is for alternate points of view to be put forward.
That's what Avalon allows us to do.
We can hear a broad spectrum of views put forward that sometimes allow us to see things from different perspectives.

I value that about this forum.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[judymoon]

There are people who are very intelligent and knowledgeable, and who can argue circles around the rest of us, while seeming wise and rational. This type of person has learned much, and has a great intellect, with a desire to understand, but is stilll in pain/fear. This is not apparent to the person. Whenever you encounter great intelligence and knowledge coupled with hidden fear and pain, tread lightly. Best to take your attention elsewhere.

[Tesseract]

Posted by WhiteCrowBlackDeer (here)



"Any one that tears someone down to build themselves up is in no position to lead or teach. "

Nicely put. Sadly, our democratic leaders make a mockery of this truism.

[TargeT]

Ill preface this by saying that I understand how hard it is to manage the inner landscape & I am not always the best follower of my own advice, but I strive to be.

Succumbing to fear, or "bullying" in an online setting is a very personal experience, one that is predicated by the "victim" first giving power to the "bully" in varying degrees. I have seen cases where this surrender of power, the allowance of abuse by the "victim" is so great that suicide is contributed to it.

None of this is needed & quite honestly makes very little sense when thought about objectively & with out emotional reaction.

I deas are just that, they either have merrit or they do not; there is no physical force behind them especially on a setting like this where you are as anonymous as you wish to be.

In short, if you feel that you are being bullied I think you need to look at your own inner land scape & see what is causing this insecurity, words, written or spoken, only have the power we give to them, especially in this setting.

[Ontarioguy]

Posted by music (here)
Is Avalon just a mini version of the corrupted wider world, with the same ego and fear-driven power plays, or should we expect it to be a model of a better world?

Do you find yourself scanning the list of online members for a certain name? If you find this name do you go offline and decide to come back later? Does the presence of a certain name on a thread deter you from posting on it? Does the appearance of a certain name on your thread make your palms sweat? Do you feel afraid to express yourself for fear that a certain member will tear a strip off you and make you look a fool? If the answer is NO, then my comments elsewhere on bullying were NOT intended for you. Save your comments of “Oh, but I never feel that”, because even though you personally do not feel intimidated by someone on this forum, this does not mean that bullying does not exist here. There ARE people for whom those questions are all too relevant; there ARE people who feel fear at the thought of attracting the attention of a particular member.

Just because YOU are OK, please do not assume that EVERYONE is OK. If you do not have the courage to stand up to a bully, then the very least you can do is try not to endorse or encourage their behaviour. If you are blind to bullying behaviour for whatever reason (and there are many), consider refraining from commenting whenever the B word is discussed – you will have nothing useful to say.

MOD EDIT: Image removed.

Hi Music, in answer to your question......YESSSS ABSOLUTELY!!!!!! YESSSSSSS!!!! But know what??? for me it has been that I prefer to HOLD back,,, and not out of sweaty palms or fear ..HELL NO.....rather....in my mind I am saying ....BRING IT!!!!!! and It's Gonna get MESSY!!! Cause I can defened myself no probs at all...however...I joined avalon feeling in the beginning that it was a community where like minded people could associate...MATURE FOLKS etc......I am educated enough to hold my own....you bet!!! And lately all I see in avalon is bullying at its best and HUGE favoritism...oh hey now...that is sooooooo blatently obvious too. Make no mistake..I have said it before and wil say it one last time....this place contains a well defined "clique" oh yeah....trust me! And they like to protect one another at any cost. I been in the background watchin and seeing it clearly taking place. It is sad...yessss because Avalon was sooooo cool of a place to be when I joined back in the spring of 2010. Ahhh well...be it as it may....Many folks in here are certainly NOT operating from their HEART....and perhaps I am one of them at this moment...however, this thread is a long time coming as this has been HEAVY on my HEART for quite some time too Music. I totally thank you for initiating this thread!!!! Thumbs up to ya my friend!! And I would hope that it opens the eyes of many and that many will work to operate from their heart in this new year....myself included...hey I aint perfect....and I am and always will be a work in progress too...but for crying out loud....let us all get better in this communication & sharing arena ......Love to all!!!!!!
P.S. I love what Jackovesk said....and he is sooo right!! "some people have wayyy too much time on their hands"!!!! yup!

[SnowyOwl]

Before having the privilege to get acquainted with the Medicine Wheel, an aspirant must first fully understand the Wheel of Power and Control. In transcendence, after Childhood comes the Teenager's Time. A teenager b y definition has not yet accumulate enough putative authority and suffer of a inferiority complex despite an urge, an intense urge to affirm itself.

Individuals, Groups of Individuals, Societies and Civilizations follows the same inevitable Path that is the encountering of the Wheel of Power and Control. This Wheel is sort of an exhilarating Power Trip proportionally to ones pre-tensions or self-imbued narcissistic opinions of oneself.

It is the exaltation Fruit in the Path to Higher Spheres and many Individuals, Sectarians, Religions, Philosophies, Societies and Civilizations stop in the Bud their Ascending Transcendance and feed themselves of this Fruit full of injustice, of barbarism, of nastiness, of immaturity of pompous pretensions and psychopathy.

Consider the following definition of abuse:
"Abuse is an attempt to gain power or control over another person using physical, emotional, sexual, or financial tactics."
The "Wheel" you see below shows that Power and Control are at the center of an abusive relationship.

In other words, abuse is when there is a pattern of one person trying to gain power and control over the other.
One of the most obvious or blatant ways to control another person is by using violence -- such as hitting a person, holding someone down, or sexually assaulting someone.
However, there are other ways of controlling a person that do not include physical violence and are not so easy to spot.

Instead of using physical or sexual violence, many abusers may use verbal, emotional, psychological or financial tactics to control the other person.

Some examples of these forms of abuse are shown in between the "spokes" of the wheel. They are more subtle, often people do not recognize them as abuse. But they are abuse, and they often lead to physical violence.

It is easy then to identify, individuals, groups, religions, cartels, societies, nations and empire that are fueled by this wheel.

From http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/power_control-wheel.html here are more specifics tactics and strategies used by the disciples of Power and Control whose destiny is violent painfull death as History has proven again and again.

POWER AND CONTROL WHEEL

This chart shows you the kinds of behavior abusers use to get and keep control over their partners. Battering is never an accident. It is an intentional act used to gain control over the other person. Physical abuse is only one part of a whole series of behaviors an abuser uses against his/her partner. Violence is never an isolated behavior. There are other forms of abuse, which are shown in the Power and Control Wheel.

Now consider this cycle and read the political agenda of some pseudo-nations, or fat-cats, or people in pseudo-authority....

It all comes to the same at the end as used to say Herman Hesse in die SteppenWolf.

This wheel still goes round and round but alas!, a grain of salt shall reduce it to a shamefull odious bullsh+t.

[Arrowwind]

I would say that there have been a couple of people here on avelon that I think twice about before I post on a thread that they post on. I have to decide each time if it is worth the potential abuse that may come my way. sometimes it is and sometimes it isnt ... often nothing comes my way, but then I have to witness their crap towards others... makes my day less not more.

I can handle straight forward conversation and some critizism.. but what gets my goat is when it comes in the holier than thou format. Some folks around here think that they have all the answers and they are pretty dam rude as they go about making their point. I swear, if they were in my house they would get thrown out by the scuff of their neck just like the cat who pissed on the floor. Fortuanatly on the forum all I have to do is flip the page and they are then silent and done.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by TargeT (here)
In short, if you feel that you are being bullied I think you need to look at your own inner land scape & see what is causing this insecurity, words, written or spoken, only have the power we give to them, especially in this setting.

Posted by Arrowwind (here)
I can handle straight forward conversation and some criticism.. but what gets my goat is when it comes in the holier than thou format.

I too have my list of things that get my goat. It's a different list, but that's a minor detail here.

Teasing apart the actions rationalized by the threatened goat child within me, from the actions in tune with some broader awareness ... that gets delicate at times. But it's worth doing if I can.

One good clue can be found in one's visceral reaction to others.

As TargeT observes, there is little or no real physical danger presented by other forum members, so if one notices one's body reacting as it might to a real live physically present and strong bully ... then that's a good clue that the justifications in one's mind for defensive or retaliatory action are driven from internalized fears, transmuted through the body and then into the verbal mind as rationalizations that are no longer in touch with their true cause, rationalizations that might no longer even have a valid cause.

[SnowyOwl]

Image representation has indeed an evocative reality within oneself. All arrogant, teenage bullying sort of images are just teenages frustrated state of being that arrogantly impose itself. In fact images that are the opposite of Empathic Evocations are just the results of b owels considering this forum as... you know what. For the sake of cultivating a b etter world all avatars that are immature and nasty should be prohibited. Just my 2 cents.
Snowy

[Arrowwind]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by TargeT (here)
In short, if you feel that you are being bullied I think you need to look at your own inner land scape & see what is causing this insecurity, words, written or spoken, only have the power we give to them, especially in this setting.

Posted by Arrowwind (here)
I can handle straight forward conversation and some criticism.. but what gets my goat is when it comes in the holier than thou format.

I too have my list of things that get my goat. It's a different list, but that's a minor detail here.

Teasing apart the actions rationalized by the threatened goat child within me, from the actions in tune with some broader awareness ... that gets delicate at times. But it's worth doing if I can.

One good clue can be found in one's visceral reaction to others.

As TargeT observes, there is little or no real physical danger presented by other forum members, so if one notices one's body reacting as it might to a real live physically present and strong bully ... then that's a good clue that the justifications in one's mind for defensive or retaliatory action are driven from internalized fears, transmuted through the body and then into the verbal mind as rationalizations that are no longer in touch with their true cause, rationalizations that might no longer even have a valid cause.

I agree for the most part. We respond with internal programing all too often. But then you gotta wonder what internal programming runs what some people say... when they are mean, rude, arrogant, assaulting, intimadating? and why the heck should you or I have to put up with it... well we dont. Just flip the page.

Remember, there are people behind these pages, behind each word. Being the sentient beings that we are we have profound capablity of making the world better or or worse.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Arrowwind (here)
I agree for the most part. We respond with internal programing all too often. But then you gotta wonder what internal programming runs what some people say... when they are mean, rude, arrogant, assaulting, intimadating? and why the heck should you or I have to put up with it... well we dont. Just flip the page.

Remember, there are people behind these pages, behind each word. Being the sentient beings that we are we have profound capablity of making the world better or or worse.

Words are indeed powerful, and through words or what is behind them, we do indeed connect with each other on this forum in ways stronger than just what a few flashing LCD pixels on a monitor screen can directly cause.

Words may not have the immediate physical force of a SWAT team smashing in one's front door at oh-dark-hundred in the morning, but in the grand scheme of things, words can convey far more powerful forces.

[music]

Thank you for some good replies, and all viewpoints are valid, even when they are in opposition, because the human psyche is incredibly complex.

True, we have responsibility for how we are affected by another, but often this reaction is tied to physical/emotional/psychological damage, so it just isn't enough in this case to say "get a grip, snap out of it, etc.". Sometimes we are unable to rise above in this present moment, and sometimes the most fragile and sensitive people have the most to offer. I feel one of the roles of a community is to support those who are presently compromised or vulnerable, so as to assist them in their journey to reclaim their power. I feel that to loose the contributions of those who are presently vulnerable would be a great shame.

The bully or abuser is often one who was bullied and/or abused themselves. Their power was taken away, and they seek to reclaim this power in the way they where taught by their experiences. I myself was sexually abused repeatedly as a five year old, so badly that it was discovered by my mother because I wouldn't stop bleeding. In my journey to reclaim my power, I became aware of a different road I could have taken. Instead of the hard "theraputic" road, there was the offer of the easy sublimation route, and I became aware that if I took this road, there was a fair chance that I would in turn hurt others. Each bully and abuser is most often the result of an injured child. My injured child had the benefit of a loving mother, and the visions I started to receive from the age of seven - not everyone is this fortunate.

About the image that Marianne removed (a noose with a computer mouse), could I ask if that was because people don't commit suicide over on-line bullying, or that we just don't want to think about the fact that they do?

[SnowyOwl]

Ripping off the veil of denials is indeed the first step towards a Maturity free at last from the bounds of the past.

Stubbornness in one's denials is not a mistake but an iniquity which is far worst since one's accept the destructive reflex to be impose again and again towards innocents.

There comes a time when the child has to become an adult and renounced becoming the agents of pain, of unjustice of debilitation or neet his destiny that is to find one's that out of the b lue will come and strike.

[gooty64]

I once called someone on this forum a bully and she backed right down.

[TargeT]

Posted by Paul (here)
there is little or no real physical danger presented by other forum members, so if one notices one's body reacting as it might to a real live physically present and strong bully ... then that's a good clue that the justifications in one's mind for defensive or retaliatory action are driven from internalized fears, transmuted through the body and then into the verbal mind as rationalizations that are no longer in touch with their true cause, rationalizations that might no longer even have a valid cause.

I think these are the "loudest" clues we will recive on things like this (and all the rest of our experience here should be calibrated by this as well, it's a very subtle thing), a clue in a world over run by loud music, bright lights and sensationalized "EVERYTHING" like this should not be ignored, even if it is quiet and unobtrusive.

[SKAWF]

well there are many different kinds of bullying.

direct and indrect
physical, mental, emotional
intimidation.. button pushing
subtle..............

destructive....

trolling....

sniping....

i read a post yesterday where someone mentioned....

that someone they knew... wouldnt participate on a thread because there was someone else on there....

hold on a sec.....

it was one of your posts music!

and if i remember rightly, that sentence was contained in a post,
most of which, i read as a direct attack on someone else......
and here we are a day later with a thread which to my eyes,
is a continuation of the of the same point you were making in the post i read...

so i feel compelled to ask you,

is this thread an indirect attack on the person you had a pop at yesterday?

i would hope that given the circumstances,
you wont mind , or feel offended by my asking that question.

regarding the topic though.....

this place, in relation to the outside world...

well....

it is a place of learning, which deals with subject matter that the vast majority of the population are unaware of.
and when one experiences a new realisation, one which expands the mind....
the energetic impulse, i would say is exponentially bigger than the more mainstream experiences most have.

i might even go as far to say that when one is soaking up new, mind expanding information
it could easily be that one is in a state of excitement.... as they learn.
maybe the experience could be 'thrilling'

so i think that there is an aspect of people being highly strung with it all.
and imo this adds a certain volatility to the interactions we have,

so i see what you're saying about this place being a model for a new way of doing things,
but at the same time, the additional factors bring everything back to balance.

on a personal level

i dont care about being attacked.
sticks and stones etc.
no one can do me any harm physically
and the rest will only harm me if i let it.

i would also say that there is a difference between someone actively setting out to pick on someone,
and someone who feels like they are being bullied.
in the second example, it may be that the person who someone thinks is bullying them,
may not even be aware of the reaction which someone else is having, to their actions.

i think that an intention to make someone feel bad,
is the defining factor as to whether bullying is actually taking place or not.

interesting subject.

cheers

[modwiz]

Posted by SKAWF (here)
well there are many different kinds of bullying.

direct and indrect
physical, mental, emotional
intimidation.. button pushing
subtle..............

destructive....

trolling....

sniping....

......the imagined kind.