A minor aside on bullying

[The Royal Wizard]

It's interesting to observe who is posting in this thread....
Whats the point in bullying anyway? Of course, if one reacts emotionally being bullied, one should excamine one self. That being said, one persons emotional reaction does not give another person the right to bully.

Be decent, a wise man said in a movie once. Be decent, as simple as that :-)

[Marianne]

Posted by music (here)
About the image that Marianne removed (a noose with a computer mouse), could I ask if that was because people don't commit suicide over on-line bullying, or that we just don't want to think about the fact that they do?

Hello Music,
You didn't indicate what the noose represented, and because that particular image has extremely negative connotations, and you hadn't explained it, it seemed to me like a good idea to remove it.

No mention was made of suicide in your opening post, but now that you have, please refer to forum guidelines (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/faq....alonguidelines)
'Threads relating to suicide are prohibited due to legal liability.'

[kaon]

I had mentioned in another thread that Avalon is very tame considering the amount of members here and some of the subject matter. I have never been a member of a forum where politics can be discussed without causing train wrecks, name calling and downright nastiness.

That said, I think most of the "bullying" aspect is more of a personal perception. Some people simply can't handle a little criticism on a discussion board. There are however little quips and pokes made here and there. It's best to simply brush them off and move on. Those who may "bully" only do so when they have an audience and get a reaction in return.

If you can't ignore an insult, top it; if you can't top it, laugh it off; and if you can't laugh it off, it's probably deserved.
(Russell Lynes)

[GloriousPoetry]

I would think that in a community like Avalon the bullies would be exposed by their own words. I've only been on this forum since this past Sept.2012. Why haven't these bullies been asked to leave the forum?

[music]

Posted by Marianne (here)

Posted by music (here)
About the image that Marianne removed (a noose with a computer mouse), could I ask if that was because people don't commit suicide over on-line bullying, or that we just don't want to think about the fact that they do?

Hello Music,
You didn't indicate what the noose represented, and because that particular image has extremely negative connotations, and you hadn't explained it, it seemed to me like a good idea to remove it.

No mention was made of suicide in your opening post, but now that you have, please refer to forum guidelines (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/faq....alonguidelines)
'Threads relating to suicide are prohibited due to legal liability.'

Hi Marianne, I can see the logic, thank you for taking the time to explain.

[music]

SKAWF: i read a post yesterday where someone mentioned....

that someone they knew... wouldnt participate on a thread because there was someone else on there....

hold on a sec.....

it was one of your posts music!

Yes, this is correct, and I was wrong to approach the issue that way. THIS is how I should have handled it. I have made a public apology to the member concerned, and I started two threads of spiritual worth also to inject positivity into the forum. But just because I handled the issue badly initially does not mean that it is not an important one. Just because I made a mistake yesterday, does not mean I am in error today.

... i think that an intention to make someone feel bad,
is the defining factor as to whether bullying is actually taking place or not.

I would agree, [MOD EDIT - Language and tone are over to the top.]

[TargeT]

Posted by music (here)
I would agree, [MOD EDIT - Language and tone are over to the top.]

I can see that you are agitated over something and I'm not really sure what; do you feel like you are not receiving the support you think you deserve on this topic?

Not allowing others to agitate you is [MOD EDIT language], it is simply mastering your own domain; "you".

Posted by kaon (here)
If you can't ignore an insult, top it; if you can't top it, laugh it off; and if you can't laugh it off, it's probably deserved.(Russell Lynes)

Now I don't agree with trading insults (a pointless exercise) but I think there is wisdom at the end of this quote, though I would say it more like "you probably feel it is deserved".

if someone else’s words triggers something inside of you I see that as a clear indication that you (the reader, no specific target with these "you"s I'm using) have something that needs attention, a reaction that is not initiated by your consciousness is like a "check engine" light on your car, it's there to give you an idea that something needs to be "checked".

I think it's a little ironic that you are complaining about bullies and then refer to someone’s words in a somewhat demeaning manor (bully tactic?) as "weasel words" (which I'm not even sure the meaning of, though it evokes certain slightly negative connotation)

It is compassionate to attempt to manage other peoples emotional reactions by censoring yourself while speaking, I do this quite often myself; but how helpful for the other person is it?

Should we favor censorship over truth?

[judymoon]

I have been told that I am a psychic empath - and believe me, if you're not one, you don't want to be one. I pick up on intention and directed emotion when I read an e-mail or on-line posting. I have gotten physically ill from an angry e-mail. I know....I sound like a big wuss, but I have had to learn techniques for shielding myself from abusive energy whether in person or on-line. I have read that psychic senstivity can be one consequence of early childhood severe trauma. I have read that there are programs (military) used for just this purpose - creating sensitives through severe abuse. But that is another topic.
It is naive to assume that because this forum is one of shared spirituality and growth, no one dangerous or abusive would ever get on here. And the most dangerous abusers are the ones who are smart enough to hide it well.( Maybe even from themselves). Who have learned the spiritual vocabulary, who have done much reading and learning, who seem humble and wise, and yet - when you have an encounter with them, you experience either confusion (why do I feel attacked?) or shame (why does this posting, directed at me, make me feel less-than or stupid, or unspiritual).
Of course, I am using pretty obvious examples, the effect can be on a much more subtle level. And it is also possible that the person doing it, does not see their own abusiveness. Can't figure out why people are 'so sensitive' or why why people concider them to be 'mean'.
If you encounter a person whom you feel is subtly abusing you, your best defense is avoidence. You may well want to say "Hey! Wait a Minute! I know what you're doing!" Trust me - it won't do any good. This is not about honest communication, its about power. If you're sensitive, you can be negatively effected by an interchange. You can't 'out' them - they will have supporters who will defend them.
Who knows what their path is, or what lessons they came in to learn. If discourse with someone affects you negatively, your best defense is avoidance. There are plenty of posters, teachers, spiritual leaders, who teach in a way that doesn't harm.
An abuser is always in pain, on some level. You don't need to deal with them, but you can still feel compassion for them, so you don't risk your heart closing down.

Discernment is a vital lesson when you are following a spiritual path.

[gooty64]

Eventually one has to stand up to perceived bullies.....or not.

Assuming this is between capable adults.

Vulnerable adults and children is another deal all together.

I am assuming we are talking about capable adults in the context of this forum, right?

[9eagle9]

Music...

"Memories are just where you laid them
drag the waters till the depths give up the dead
what did you expect to find?
was it something you left behind?
dont you remember
everything i said when i said...

Dont fall away!
Don't Leave me to myself.
Dont fall away,
and leave love bleeding in my hands
in my hands, again.
leave love bleeding in my hands
in my hands,
love lies bleeding.

Unholy now, it feel contagious.

am i the only place that you've left to go.
she cries her life is like,
some movie black and white.
Dead actors faking lines.
over and over and over again "she" cries.
don't fall away, and leave me to myself
dont fall away, and leave love bleeding
in my hands, in my hands again
leave love bleeding
in my hands, in my hands
love lies bleeding

and i wanted
you turned away
you don't remember, but i do
you never even tried

don't fall away and leave me to myself
don't fall away and leave love bleeding
in my hands, in my hands again
leave love bleeding
in my hands, in my hands
love lies bleeding

*****
think about it . Some people don't want you to
' fall ' regardless if they 'like' you or not.

Sincerely,

"the" Bully.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=_WrBtRtdL28

Posted by music (here)

SKAWF: i read a post yesterday where someone mentioned....

that someone they knew... wouldnt participate on a thread because there was someone else on there....

hold on a sec.....

it was one of your posts music!

Yes, this is correct, and I was wrong to approach the issue that way. THIS is how I should have handled it. I have made a public apology to the member concerned, and I started two threads of spiritual worth also to inject positivity into the forum. But just because I handled the issue badly initially does not mean that it is not an important one. Just because I made a mistake yesterday, does not mean I am in error today.

... i think that an intention to make someone feel bad,
is the defining factor as to whether bullying is actually taking place or not.

I would agree, [MOD EDIT - Language and tone are over to the top.]

[Freed Fox]

Speaking on the issue at large (as it pertains to Avalon), and not the subtext of the conversation;

If I ever come off as arrogant, bullying, condescending, or 'holier-than-thou' to anyone here, it is not my intention. If you perceive my words this way, please let me know. You can just PM me if you want, whatever is comfortable. I know these issues can't always be avoided, and indeed are inevitable at times in life, but I don't want to be a contributor to these ill feelings. I do my best to measure my words with both respect and modesty, without missing the point that I ultimately want to make.

Thank you to everyone who contributes, whether or not they aim to spare others feelings.

[Strat]

I'm generally positive I've never bullied anyone here though my posts may seem holier than thou at times. If anyone ever thinks this I apologize. However, if I were to be accused of this, I would want to see the exact post.

Here's my 2 cents:

I think it's everyone's duty to themselves and to the rest of the world to constantly work on self-improvement. In this case, I imagine proper (proper being the key word here) diligent, daily, meditation is what's lacking. This is just from my experience: I was physically and psychologically bullied by my older bro when I was younger. Yeah, I know, everyone goes through that...Not really. My old nanny remembers seeing him punching me in the head, knocking me off a couch when I was a baby. He used to hold me down and spit in my face, laughing the whole time. I have a million stories. This seriously screwed my head up and gave me a hair trigger temper. I seriously believe this is why I now have epilepsy and cluster headaches (I'm sure the blows to the head didn't help).

It's not until the past few years that I've been able to almost completely eradicate my anger. It is hard work. If you've been 'meaning to exercise' but almost never do then don't think you can meditate. The kind of meditation I'm talking about is more strenuous than exercising. All exercise (at the extreme level) is all mental. Meditating goes straight to the point and it's downright difficult.

Now this part will be rude but I don't mean to offend, I'm just stubborn as hell and I don't know any of you guys/gals that well: If you're suffering from emotional issues and you tell me you meditate, I will not believe you meditate on the level I'm trying to convey.

More recently I've been using a device called the EmWave2. It's kinda pricey but it's just amazing. It's basically a biofeedback device which tells you if you're meditating correctly or not. It's fascinating to see the direct affect meditation plays on the heart, I think this is the next level of meditation and the old masters will become obsolete (not to take away any respect though).

I could write for days about that device, it should be free and on top of that it should be taught at all kindergartens. Shoot me a PM for details. No, I'm not selling it, it's on Amazon.

EDIT:9eagle9 that song seriously rocks.

[music]

judymoon, wise words, thank you.
TargeT, I will play hard ball if I feel something is being swept under the carpet. Don't worry about the phrase "weasel words", consider the word "empathic". Walk a mile in another's shoes.
gooty64, why do we assume that there are no vulnerable adults here, and there are also minors here too.

.

I take you in my arms and soothe your pain, my love is a gentle hand and cool water on your brow. The pain you wish to cause me I endure because your child needs me to be strong. There is no judgement, there is no gamesmanship, there is only the pure love of the human heart. Love and peace be yours.

[lookbeyond]

Posted by judymoon (here)
I have been told that I am a psychic empath - and believe me, if you're not one, you don't want to be one. I pick up on intention and directed emotion when I read an e-mail or on-line posting. I have gotten physically ill from an angry e-mail. I know....I sound like a big wuss, but I have had to learn techniques for shielding myself from abusive energy whether in person or on-line. I have read that psychic senstivity can be one consequence of early childhood severe trauma. I have read that there are programs (military) used for just this purpose - creating sensitives through severe abuse. But that is another topic.
It is naive to assume that because this forum is one of shared spirituality and growth, no one dangerous or abusive would ever get on here. And the most dangerous abusers are the ones who are smart enough to hide it well.( Maybe even from themselves). Who have learned the spiritual vocabulary, who have done much reading and learning, who seem humble and wise, and yet - when you have an encounter with them, you experience either confusion (why do I feel attacked?) or shame (why does this posting, directed at me, make me feel less-than or stupid, or unspiritual).
Of course, I am using pretty obvious examples, the effect can be on a much more subtle level. And it is also possible that the person doing it, does not see their own abusiveness. Can't figure out why people are 'so sensitive' or why why people concider them to be 'mean'.
If you encounter a person whom you feel is subtly abusing you, your best defense is avoidence. You may well want to say "Hey! Wait a Minute! I know what you're doing!" Trust me - it won't do any good. This is not about honest communication, its about power. If you're sensitive, you can be negatively effected by an interchange. You can't 'out' them - they will have supporters who will defend them.
Who knows what their path is, or what lessons they came in to learn. If discourse with someone affects you negatively, your best defense is avoidance. There are plenty of posters, teachers, spiritual leaders, who teach in a way that doesn't harm.
An abuser is always in pain, on some level. You don't need to deal with them, but you can still feel compassion for them, so you don't risk your heart closing down.

Discernment is a vital lesson when you are following a spiritual path.

JudyMoon i believe u hit the nail on the head-lb

[RunningDeer]

Posted by judymoon (here)
I have been told that I am a psychic empath - and believe me, if you're not one, you don't want to be one. I pick up on intention and directed emotion when I read an e-mail or on-line posting. I have gotten physically ill from an angry e-mail. I know....I sound like a big wuss, but I have had to learn techniques for shielding myself from abusive energy whether in person or on-line. I have read that psychic senstivity can be one consequence of early childhood severe trauma. I have read that there are programs (military) used for just this purpose - creating sensitives through severe abuse. But that is another topic.
It is naive to assume that because this forum is one of shared spirituality and growth, no one dangerous or abusive would ever get on here. And the most dangerous abusers are the ones who are smart enough to hide it well.( Maybe even from themselves). Who have learned the spiritual vocabulary, who have done much reading and learning, who seem humble and wise, and yet - when you have an encounter with them, you experience either confusion (why do I feel attacked?) or shame (why does this posting, directed at me, make me feel less-than or stupid, or unspiritual).
Of course, I am using pretty obvious examples, the effect can be on a much more subtle level. And it is also possible that the person doing it, does not see their own abusiveness. Can't figure out why people are 'so sensitive' or why why people concider them to be 'mean'.
If you encounter a person whom you feel is subtly abusing you, your best defense is avoidence. You may well want to say "Hey! Wait a Minute! I know what you're doing!" Trust me - it won't do any good. This is not about honest communication, its about power. If you're sensitive, you can be negatively effected by an interchange. You can't 'out' them - they will have supporters who will defend them.
Who knows what their path is, or what lessons they came in to learn. If discourse with someone affects you negatively, your best defense is avoidance. There are plenty of posters, teachers, spiritual leaders, who teach in a way that doesn't harm.
An abuser is always in pain, on some level. You don't need to deal with them, but you can still feel compassion for them, so you don't risk your heart closing down.

Discernment is a vital lesson when you are following a spiritual path.

Hello JudyMoon,

You raise good points and remind me of some I've forgotten. Thank you.

Peace,
WhiteCrowBlackDeer

[gooty64]

gooty64, why do we assume that there are no vulnerable adults here, and there are also minors here too.

Good question.
I am speaking for the sake of this conversation about capable adults in regards to bullying.
One would really have to separate the consenting adults on here from the vulnerable adults and the children for the sake of this conversation.
Vulnerable adults is a mental label given to adults that can't mentally care for themselves -it is a clinical term. Sensitive people like me (and you?) can feel hurt and vulnerable but, this is different and not a clinical diagnosis.
My guess is there are many members here that would race the aid of a vulnerable adult or minor on Avalon that is being bullied.
So, I think it's best to define the terms for the sake of the discussion.

[music]

[MOD EDIT - Language and tone are over to the top.]


Well allow me to clean it up for you then, though is it not a joke to imply that words can't hurt, and then to censor my words because you don't like them? Feel free to censor me again though, we all have free will. So ...

(I would agree) ... which is why I find Paul’s words quoted below to be somewhat akin to weasel words

Paul: there is little or no real physical danger presented by other forum members, so if one notices one's body reacting as it might to a real live physically present and strong bully ... then that's a good clue that the justifications in one's mind for defensive or retaliatory action are driven from internalized fears, transmuted through the body and then into the verbal mind as rationalizations that are no longer in touch with their true cause, rationalizations that might no longer even have a valid cause.

This fits in well with modwiz, who commenting on types of bullying replies “... the imagined kind.” So guys, you are basically saying it’s all in the mind, don’t blame the poor maligned bully, just drink some concrete and harden up? In fact, let’s start a fundraiser for all those much-maligned bullies out there, and pick up some sticks to start hitting all those people who are weak enough to be affected by their words.

An important point: one is just as culpable, both morally and legally, for in-action as well as for action. It is line in the sand time: is this a community, or is it a hierarchy where the strong prevail over the weak?

My partner commented that the words used here and quoted above perpetuate that old paradigm of control "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names shall never hurt me". What a crock that is. We don't have to do anything about physical hurts, the body is more than capable of looking after itself - cuts heals, broken bones knit together - but emotional and psychological hurts do not repair themselves. The damage of words can be life-long, while the damage of weapons is often only transitory.

See this post above about psychically sensitive people. I encourage everyone to read this again. You might not see that there is a problem here, but consider that there are "sensitive" people, in tune with the energy of intent, who are negatively affected by those insubstantial wisps we call words. There are also people who have been, or who fear being, psychically attacked. Here I should say, this post is not about 1 person only, it is to address the dicotomy of the sensitive and the insensitive, and just because the idea of psychic attack or the injurious power of words does not exist in your cosmology, you have no right to tell other people how they feel and perceive.

The remedy to psychic attack is love. If anyone is interested in how I deal with psychic attack, feel free to pm me.

Never foget that the bully needs love as much as the victim. I never stop loving anyone, it is a constant that can not be tainted by the energies of those who have momentarily lost their way.

[music]

Posted by gooty64 (here)

gooty64, why do we assume that there are no vulnerable adults here, and there are also minors here too.

Good question.
I am speaking for the sake of this conversation about capable adults in regards to bullying.
One would really have to separate the consenting adults on here from the vulnerable adults and the children for the sake of this conversation.
Vulnerable adults is a mental label given to adults that can't mentally care for themselves -it is a clinical term. Sensitive people like me (and you?) can feel hurt and vulnerable but, this is different and not a clinical diagnosis.
My guess is there are many members here that would race the aid of a vulnerable adult or minor on Avalon that is being bullied.
So, I think it's best to define the terms for the sake of the discussion.

Hi, I think we are not in the psychiatric arena here, so clinical terms may not be appropriate. Vulnerable will encompass many folk who are strong in most areas, but have an Achilles heel - the psychically sensitive, the physically or emotionally abused, for example. I don't think it is helpful to label the victims of bullying as psychologically imcompetent.

[gooty64]

OK, Music. I hear you. If there is anything I can do to help you, let me know. I'm sorry if I caused harm to anyone by my previous posts.

Posted by music (here)

Posted by gooty64 (here)

gooty64, why do we assume that there are no vulnerable adults here, and there are also minors here too.

Good question.
I am speaking for the sake of this conversation about capable adults in regards to bullying.
One would really have to separate the consenting adults on here from the vulnerable adults and the children for the sake of this conversation.
Vulnerable adults is a mental label given to adults that can't mentally care for themselves -it is a clinical term. Sensitive people like me (and you?) can feel hurt and vulnerable but, this is different and not a clinical diagnosis.
My guess is there are many members here that would race the aid of a vulnerable adult or minor on Avalon that is being bullied.
So, I think it's best to define the terms for the sake of the discussion.

Hi, I think we are not in the psychiatric arena here, so clinical terms may not be appropriate. Vulnerable will encompass many folk who are strong in most areas, but have an Achilles heel - the psychically sensitive, the physically or emotionally abused, for example. I don't think it is helpful to label the victims of bullying as psychologically imcompetent.

[SKAWF]

when one gets deeper into this subject, it begins to split into different things!
i agree that people have varying degree's of strength and weekness's in different area's

but as the overseer of own own experience,
i think we have a duty of care to ourselves to find our potential week points and address them accordingly.
everyone is in that position. its the way the game should be played.....
we've all taken knocks in our lives, and its up to us to fix it,
so that we dont end up going through the same negative experiences over and over again.

the world can be a harsh place. it has some uncaring so and so's in it,
and as much as we might like it....
the world will not change to suit the individual.
it is the resposibilty of the indivdual to look after themselves i think.

and when it comes to being bullied.......
you have a choice. to do nothing..... or to deal with it.
once a victim stands up to a bully, the chances are that they wont allow themselves to be bullied by anyone else.
just that one act of courage will bring benefits that will last for the entirety of that persons life.

ive been bullied before. it wasnt words though. it was acts of physical violence.
i have scars on my face because of it.
there was a point where i wouldnt fight back.
even now i dont like violence. i suffer massive guilt for days afterwards
but i have learned the hard way that if you do nothing.... it will keep happening.
it was up to me to rise to the occasion.
it was hard but it was the best thing i ever did.

i went from being an easy target, to being respected for sticking up for myself.
and the problems stopped.

in my heart i know that bullying is wrong, and i would obviously prefer it if nobody did it to anyone.
but the world isnt like that.

lets face it.... if you cant deal with words on an internet forum,
you stand no chance against TPTB. they employ psychological warfare.

what if.........
hypothetically....

this experience (life on earth) was a game that we all chose to come here and play?
and all our experiences were layed out so that we could take on the big boss at the end.....

but some people have yet to get past the mini boss which just is another human picking on them.

i'm not unsympathetic to those who are easily intimidated. (ive become quite maternal of late!)

but at some point its surely up to them to STAND UP and say

'I'M AS MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GONNA TAKE THIS ANY MORE!'

a jedi likes to meditate..... its about balance....
but if you threaten his life he will kill you.

we are'nt one thing all the time.
we have to adapt to circumstances.

i like to live my life with a degree of sensitivity. its my preference......
but if necessary i can deal with people who are problematic.

its an essential life skill imo & ime.

cheers