Why the Common Problem of Sex Abuse in Boy Scouts and Catholic Church? Compare/Contrast

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

I think each country should start with its own abuses.
For example, animal abuse and child abuse in the USA are bad.
As they are in Scotland.

But abuse of women is bad in the Middle East and Asia.
For example. But I would not start my protest in China,
I was talking about the USA/Europe.

Our own countries are bad enough!
People can't make any headway without working a lot harder than need be.

Any one of us for example could come up with a better city plan than average.
But we will rarely see change.

[sdv]

Posted by Tesla_WTC_Solution (here)
I should not have made this thread, but I appreciate the comments of everyone here!
Especially those who willingly confront the issue.

We have to confront the evil in ourselves before we can really judge the world!

p.s. it's hard to be slaves of an institution when you are more worried about educating children than slaving for said institution

i learned too late that kids give you the chance to be the best person you can be, but all too often they see the worst of us adults...

I find your statement that you should not have started this thread disconcerting. You have touched on a 'major' problem, certainly in my country. We need to be brave enough to talk about this and draw the line of what is acceptable and what is unacceptable in our societies.

A leading politician in my country (where more than 50% of men rape before they reach their 20s, where there are at least 7 reported rapes of under-age children every day, and so on ... too horrendous to detail here) recently said something along the lines of 'the rape and abuse of women has reached an unacceptable level'. Is there an acceptable level, I wonder?

We need to talk about this and decide as society what the line is and refuse to have amongst us those who cross that line.

[sdv]

Posted by Nanoo Nanoo (here)
ok

my sexual abuses in my life

women 3

men 1

fact ' not statistics.


driving on the roads i have noticed 4 times as many accidents with women drivers as opposed to men, they are mostly rear enders possibly because they are distracted on the phone , doing makeup whilst driving a motor vehicle,,, i have seen this daily. fact besides the inclusion of this was to draw a parralell in statistics , not to draw attention to women being less capable in anything. perhaps you should remove your head from the sand too. the reporting of sex crimes against men is far less .. men generally believe we gotta cop it on the chin.. hence why we dont report these things.



this is not opinion , this is not statistics this is what i have seen and experienced with my own eyes.

i get the feeling that you were a victim once ? am i correct ? this would explain the addictions and abuse of drugs ? gambling ? i can see you are wanting justice. i agree with you , you should have it but not at the expence of truth.



N

Personally I do not think that this is a gender issue nor one about justice, judgement and retribution but rather about being clear and firm about what kind of society we want. Those who cross the line are not welcome to live in society (i.e. we therefore do not put people in prison as a form of punishment or retribution but because they have crossed the lines and violated the rules that they are required to abide by in order to live in society). No, I do not support the death sentence/penalty/whatever you call it (executing people is barbaric and savage). But we do need to clear about what we as a society find acceptable and what we do not. We live in the fog of the grey areas. Is it rape or a false accusation of rape; is it murder or self-defence; is it robbery or poverty; and so on and so on.

[KiwiElf]

It's a good & timely thread Tesla, and it needs to be discussed openly so (hopefully) action will be taken. Child Molestation, Pedophilism etc, unfortunately, seems to be far more widespread than most people realise. As was mentioned earlier, it would appear to be that wherever children are gathered and vulnerable, ie churches, schools, orphanages, scouts etc, draws these people like a magnet.

Like greed, jealousy and all the other so-called human sins, it is part of the flawed human genome. Locking them up will not "fix" them.

Although we always hear about adults molesting, rarely - and perhaps the biggest taboo that most will not discuss in this "subject area", - are minors/children who actually initiate the behaviour too (and possibly later, some even become predators themselves). Social conditions, poverty and culture can also play a role. (Probably most of us have heard horror stories from India & Thailand for example, where children are sold for sex to adults).

Good on you for starting this thread

[Jean-Marie]

I have been a leader in BSA for about 12 years. I am currently an Assistant Scoutmaster and a Venture crew adviser. I have five sons. One is an Eagle Scout and two are working on Eagle. My fourth son's eagle scout project is set for March 16th. I have seen many changes in regards to background checks and Youth Protection Training.

About 5 years ago they began to mandate that every child had to read the section in their book "How to protect your children from child abuse, A Parents Guide" and the scout and his parents had to sign off that they read it and understood it. Our Council moved toward the Nationals requirement that all leaders be fully trained in their positions within the first year of their leadership positions.

About 3 years ago our council started not accepting any adult application without a certificate that they had already completed Youth protection training.

About 2 years ago they mandated that any adult going with a unit had to be youth protection trained. We file tour permits with council on the trips we want to take. If any adult listed on the tour permit was not youth protection trained then the tour permit was not approved until the adult had taken youth protection training.

So BSA has implemented rules to help prevent abuse. However, as a mother of five boys I felt it was my duty to be involved. There is no better way to keep your child safe than to be a part of any organization that your children join. I have spent summers up at boy scout camp making sure that the children were safe. Many mothers would only let their sons attend summer camp knowing that another mother was joining the men and taking their son under her wing.

Bottom line, IN MY OPINION, the responsibility of keeping your children safe lies with the parents.

[shadowstalker]

Now that's comforting (not) Sorry truly don't mean to be sarcastic, but it really bothers me when folks are in denial and don't truly think forward on what truly may go on when it come to kids.

Paper work never really proved anything in the end for a molester.
I wonder how many child molesters passed psychological testing as being straight up normal acceptable person, who would never harm a soul?

It only takes 1/2 second to touch a child in the boys/girls bathroom, and claim it was a simple accident. And the child and parents would believe it.

Ever wonder why these guys don't get caught till years later?
Cuz they know how to play at it, especially at the parents,(in most of the cases) win over the parent win over the child.

[AutumnW]

Motive and opportunity, I guess, Tesla. The priesthood would attract pedophiles because it is a position of high trust. Also the opportunity for a single child to be behind closed doors with a man of the cloth-- ie altar boys, wouldn't be considered out of the ordinary. Boyscout leaders are protected by darkness...literally. They take kids camping. A Michael Jackson style sleep-over in the forest, didn't raise an eyebrow, much less a judge's gavel, in the past. I don't know if it's a gender issue as much as an abuse of power problem. I don't think this kind of abuse is as common today as in the recent past.

[spiritguide]

Root cause, temptation. Look at any vile act and you will see someone tempted to achieve a personal reward. The digression being consensual or not. Drug addict, alcoholic, gambler, any kind of sex offender, sodomy, theft, adultery, committing bodily harm/ murder or any abnormal behavior is rampant in western society and touted by media and entertainment to the point of being generally accepted as commonplace. Accountability and responsibility for one's actions used to be the norm, now the blame game has taken over and we all forget just who is inside us making decisions for us. IMHO

[turiya]

Posted by Tesla_WTC_Solution (here)

I was wondering if anyone here ever ran a mental comparison of the Boy Scouts and the Roman Catholic Church, and listed their similarities and differences, and determined why both of these large and very embedded organizations share the common problems of pedophilia and undeclared homosexuality.

I guess what I am looking for, in a nutshell, is what people think regarding the intended purpose of these establishments and the actual effect they have on society.

It seems to me that the weak link is almost always the priest or the scout leader. They are the ones with the most opportunity to abuse. They are male. No one is keeping watch over them, either. And why?

I feel that integrating the sexes for long term activities and fairly distributing authority between men and women would completely solve this problem. Many people argue against egalitarianism. I have no idea what their problem is, really. Do they want kids to keep getting sexually abused?

The 60's had a good thing going for it that sexually repressive religious freaks took away. And I am a bit religious too! But lately, I've been more for freedom.

What about you? Opinions/more developed thoughts, etc.?

I really don't want to waste my time reading through what people think about this.

The root cause is quite simple.
Its about going against mother nature.
Fight with mother nature, and you will lose. She is going to have her way, one way or the other.
Its all about the repression/suppression of one's own sexual energy.

The idea that Christian priests have of being more spiritual by avoiding sex, in being celibate, is absolutely stupid.
One cannot force oneself to be celibate. Natural celibacy comes only by going through sex, by being fulfilled by it, and not by avoiding it.

If one prevents himself from the natural expression of sexual energy, it will undoubtedly find another way of expression.
The problem is that the alternative way will become perverted.
Prevent the natural expression of energy, and it will find some other way to be expressed, except that alternative form will be unnatural.
It will become perverted.

There are plenty of people that are not priests or ministers or pastors, but they believe what the churches have taught them in how to get to heaven.
Sex is bad, one is a born sinner, one has to share before they understand what greed is all about.
One shouldn't show their anger. Can't show your sadness. Everyone should repress what they really are feeling.
These so-called established "religions" have got this humanity tied up in knots & standing on its head.

You put a sexually repressed man in charge of a group of boys, and you know what will be the outcome.
You put a sexually repressed woman in charge of children at a public school, and the temptation will be there.

Its not that difficult a thing to understand.
Don't repress your emotions, your feelings, your energies.
If you do, you will suffer the consequences.

The Pope is an idiot that he hasn't figured this one out.

Cheers - turiya

[Nanoo Nanoo]

I have been thinking about this thread all day and wanted to get to a particular point which is very easy to understand.

In particular with abusers which is non gender specific. Abuse can come in many forms. The ONLY way to truly make a change is to educate ones self. First as a pareent it is easy to see that predators have been around for thousands of years , rules and regulations make very little difference to one who is happy to break the law. The only sure fire way is to educate woman and children on what to look out for to avoid being in the position of danger.

there are a certain set of circumstances that equate to danger in terms of being a target. If you have this information and training then you are much less likely to ever be in this situation. verybody understands its dangerous to go into the water when the seas are rough. Same thing happens when you challenge certain dangerous circumstances.

EG how many men and women know not to enter their car if a van is parked next to it in the shopping mall ? most people wouldnt take a second thought at this. But people that get snatched for whatever reason get snatched into vans. The side door opens behind you as you go to open your door and 3 people pull you in and you are done for !

Women , do you think its safer when walking home late at night if you are on the phone ? BZZZT ! you are a target ! because you are distracted ! the only way to be safe is to walk with a friend or be VIGILANT !

I tested my partner one night after she refused to let me train her , her stupid beligerant excuse was " i live in a safe suburb , it would never happen to me " ( what an idiot ! )

So one night i followed her home in my car , when she pulled up at her home i got out of the car and grabbed her. She froze ! In the debreifing after she explained she realised she was being followed but she thought if she got home she would somehow be ok. BZZZT ! if someone is following you you do not give them access to you by stopping , you keep going to a police station, to a friends place who is home hopefully you called them while you are driving to inform them . whatever you do dont stop... You see people have no idea how to avoid being a target. It can only happen with education.

Since then i have trained my partner on how to be aware of typical situations, she carries a weapon and i have trained her how to use it and when to use it.

People often think that if you upset the attacker they may get violent ... this is incorrect. You MUST try yoru hardest to mame and incapacitate the attacker either temporarily or permanently. Either one is fine. But once you start to defend you do NOT STOP screaming kicking and scratching till the attacker gives up.

i know this is a bit macabe ... but for heavens sake if you are a woman or parent with children , get some training ! the perps will never go away with rules and fighting for rights , they do not care ! You must defend yoru self. or beter still learn how not to be there in the first place : o )

N

[AutumnW]

Nanoo Nanoo, There are certain wise precautions we should all take, as you have outlined. It would be nice to see the other side of the coin commented on, though. I've seen kids who socially backward because they have been indoctrinated to ,'never talk to strangers,'...and I mean they are seriously maladjusted into their teens because they are not told to use their own discretionary powers in some situations that demand some flexibility, reason and powers of discernment.

I live in a zero crime area, so it is easy for me to be relaxed. I leave my doors unlocked at night when my husband is home. So, consider the source of this post!

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
Nanoo Nanoo, There are certain wise precautions we should all take, as you have outlined. It would be nice to see the other side of the coin commented on, though. I've seen kids who socially backward because they have been indoctrinated to ,'never talk to strangers,'...and I mean they are seriously maladjusted into their teens because they are not told to use their own discretionary powers in some situations that demand some flexibility, reason and powers of discernment.

I live in a zero crime area, so it is easy for me to be relaxed. I leave my doors unlocked at night when my husband is home. So, consider the source of this post!

i agree , brow beating kids like this is even worse. Proper training brings confidense through information. Women and children will feel empowered and confident and aware.

I have had training my self , not that im a target , im not the a standard target at all but before i started my training , even with my physique and fitness i did feel susceptible and this made me feel a little on edge some times. i had learned many forms of hand to hand combat but never floor techniques. once i learned floor techniques or ground tech i felt so much more confident ( please dont mistake confident with cocky )

80% of altercations end up on the ground , so you must know ground and floor techniques.

training has given me a respect to 1 do not challenge just anybody for no reason, you never know what theother may know or skills they have. respect all beings

respect your self , understand that being attacked is never ok, as soon as it happens you MUST react with equal and opposing force. Do not consider the attacker or feel sorry for them , conversly do not feel hatred toward them, this will lead to mistakes and getting tired quickly. Conserve your energy and be focussed without panick. this really puts them off.

women when walking down the street please for gods sake stop playing with your i phone. look forward and up, glance into the eyes of on coming people , meeting eyes means confidense. if you look down and away this means you may be weak and a target.

If you think you are being followed do not let them know you know till you have an escape plan. Think quickly and find a safe house. Open shop, house with kids toys out front , do not go down a secluded alley way or into hiding in remote area unless you have a good distance from them.

if you are in the street you can check what is behind you by glancing into the shop windows using your periphery vision, this shows you what is behind you .

if two people are walking towards you and you notice them sepperate as they get closer iE causing you to walk between them , stop and cross the road or change tact , go into a shop , find a safe place.

mums and dads tell children to be weary when playing at the play grounds. have one responsible child keeping an eye out for adults etc. teach them responsibility. not fear.

i hope this has been useful.


Naniu