ANNOUNCEMENT: Huge Scale Environmental and Humanitarian Projects to Repair The Earth

[Cjay]

My feeling is the government ministers will fiddle around as long as possible and do nothing then, when the next election is called, they will use that as a reason to stop working on the hemp food issue and bury it in the past. After that, it will probably require someone to submit a completely new application and start the process all over again with the new government. I hope I'm wrong but this has already been going around in circles for at least ten years.

[modwiz]

Posted by Cjay (here)
My feeling is the government ministers will fiddle around as long as possible and do nothing then, when the next election is called, they will use that as a reason to stop working on the hemp food issue and bury it in the past. After that, it will probably require someone to submit a completely new application and start the process all over again with the new government. I hope I'm wrong but this has already been going around in circles for at least ten years.

The good news is, time ain't what it used to be. Things are moving so fast these days, it is almost a blur.

[Cjay]

Indeed, some changes are occurring very quickly. However, politicians have mastered the art of wasting enormous amounts of time and money while achieving nothing - unless it is part of their political agenda, then they rush in, make a terrible mess of things and waste extraordinary amounts of money, then waste more money trying to fix the problems they created.

When political leaders retire, they charge their pension, office, car and travel expenses (and probably much more) to the public for the rest of their lives. Long after they are dead, we the public are still paying off multi-billion dollar loans for projects that should never have been started and were rorted every step of the way.

Perhaps one of the biggest scourges on humanity is politics and government. We need a complete reset.

[panopticon]

I'm a big advocate for decentralised utilities as they place power (literally and figuratively) back in the hands of the individuals using the end service.

I came across this article on residential solar panel installations (yes, I'm aware of the issues with solar) as a means of overcoming grid collapse and thought I'd store it then thought it might fit well in this thread.
So...

###

Solar Panels for Every Home

By David Crane and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Published: December 12, 2012

WE don’t think much about pitch pine poles until storms like Hurricane Sandy litter our landscape with their splintered corpses and arcing power lines. Crews from as far away as California and Quebec have worked feverishly to repair or replace those poles as utility companies rebuild their distribution systems the way they were before.

Residents of New Jersey and New York have lived through three major storms in the past 16 months, suffering through sustained blackouts, closed roads and schools, long gas lines and disrupted lives, all caused by the destruction of our electric system. When our power industry is unable to perform its most basic mission of supplying safe, affordable and reliable power, we need to ask whether it is really sensible to run the 21st century by using an antiquated and vulnerable system of copper wires and wooden poles.

Some of our neighbors have taken matters into their own hands, purchasing portable gas-powered generators in order to give themselves varying degrees of “grid independence." But these dirty, noisy and expensive devices have no value outside of a power failure. And they’re not much help during a failure if gasoline is impossible to procure.

Having spent our careers in and around the power industry, we believe there is a better way to secure grid independence for our homes and businesses. (Disclosure: Mr. Crane’s company, based in Princeton, N.J., generates power from coal, natural gas, and nuclear, wind and solar energy.) Solar photovoltaic technology can significantly reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and our dependence on the grid. Electricity-producing photovoltaic panels installed on houses, on the roofs of warehouses and big box stores and over parking lots can be wired so that they deliver power when the grid fails.

Solar panels have dropped in price by 80 percent in the past five years and can provide electricity at a cost that is at or below the current retail cost of grid power in 20 states, including many of the Northeast states. So why isn’t there more of a push for this clean, affordable, safe and inexhaustible source of electricity?

First, the investor-owned utilities that depend on the existing system for their profits have little economic interest in promoting a technology that empowers customers to generate their own power. Second, state regulatory agencies and local governments impose burdensome permitting and siting requirements that unnecessarily raise installation costs. Today, navigating the regulatory red tape constitutes 25 percent to 30 percent of the total cost of solar installation in the United States, according to data from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, and, as such, represents a higher percentage of the overall cost than the solar equipment itself.

In Germany, where sensible federal rules have fast-tracked and streamlined the permit process, the costs are considerably lower. It can take as little as eight days to license and install a solar system on a house in Germany. In the United States, depending on your state, the average ranges from 120 to 180 days. More than one million Germans have installed solar panels on their roofs, enough to provide close to 50 percent of the nation’s power, even though Germany averages the same amount of sunlight as Alaska. Australia also has a streamlined permitting process and has solar panels on 10 percent of its homes. Solar photovoltaic power would give America the potential to challenge the utility monopolies, democratize energy generation and transform millions of homes and small businesses into energy generators. Rational, market-based rules could turn every American into an energy entrepreneur. That transition to renewable power could create millions of domestic jobs and power in this country with American resourcefulness, initiative and entrepreneurial energy while taking a substantial bite out of the nation’s emissions of greenhouse gases and other dangerous pollutants.

As we restore crucial infrastructure after the storm, let’s build an electricity delivery system that is more resilient, clean, democratic and reliable than the one that Sandy washed away. We can begin by eliminating the regulatory hurdles impeding solar generation and use incentives like the renewable energy tax credit — which Congress seems poised to eliminate — to balance the subsidies enjoyed by fossil fuel producers.

And as we rebuild the tens of thousands of houses and commercial buildings damaged and destroyed by the storm, let’s incorporate solar power arrays and other clean energy technologies in their designs, and let’s allow them to be wired so they still are generating even when the centralized grid system is down.

We have the technology. The economics makes sense. All we need is the political will.
Source.

[panopticon]

Came across an interesting report title 'Global Water Security' by the NIC from February 2012.

Talks about the problems that water scarcity around the world (for example from increased population, urbanisation, industrialisation) in the coming decades will have on stability from the local to global levels.

Here's the pdf of the maps that accompany the report:


Source.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[Anchor]

Posted by panopticon (here)
And as we rebuild the tens of thousands of houses and commercial buildings damaged and destroyed by the storm, let’s incorporate solar power arrays and other clean energy technologies in their designs, and let’s allow them to be wired so they still are generating even when the centralized grid system is down.

Sadly, most non-rural domestic solar installations are the type that connect to the grid, consequently, they do not work when the grid is down - they can't feed a grid that isn't working and they are designed not to even try, so the linesmen working on the broken bits don't have to work on live wires.

I get that there is a desire for clean energy but no one should kid themselves that solar is "green". Each panel requires a fantastic amount of energy to produce and the manufacture of them has toxic by products that are usually dumped as waste.

To be independent of the grid means the ability to either store and use, or generate your own power, when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing, and there are no easy, green, economical answers for that - YET. It can be done. I have done it. It is not economic.

Living somewhere where you can run a water wheel seems to me the greenest option - which if fine until someone dams the river..., or it dries up for other reasons.

I am sure that the answer to our energy problems lies elsewhere.

[panopticon]

Posted by Anchor (here)
Sadly, most non-rural domestic solar installations are the type that connect to the grid, consequently, they do not work when the grid is down - they can't feed a grid that isn't working and they are designed not to even try, so the linesmen working on the broken bits don't have to work on live wires.

G'day Anchor,

I took the closing paragraph to mean having the grid tie as a dump if excess power is generated and the grid is up, otherwise load dump goes elsewhere. My point is that decentralised management of utilities (ie local community run grids), or individual systems that grid tie their excess (dumped load), is an initial stage in setting up grass root run projects that empower the individual (literally and figuratively) while placing control of a valuable part of modern society (electrickery) in the hands of the user and not a remote other.

I've often mumbled about vanadium redox flow batteries as a means of providing storage for peak load balancing in a decentralised community based system. Mix in solar as part of the system (along with wind, hydro, geothermal, tidal etc) and a community would be able to manage its own supply/demand cycle. The key word here is manage. As I'm sure you're aware living with renewables makes for an interesting life (especially when things go wrong) and people need to become part of the process when they take responsibility for their own power generation. Unfortunately our modern societies are more about recreation than cooperation or self reliance so getting people to understand anything more than "light switch makes light go on" can be very frustrating. I'm amazed at the number of people who can't even change a light bulb or check a fuse...

There's heaps of options in this field and the solar panels on every roof is only one of them. Take the Eco Whisper wind turbine:



Designed as a 5kW or 20 kW system it pumps straight into the grid. If the grid is owned by the community then a number of these would integrate easily and at a lower cost than a large turbine.

Posted by Anchor (here)
I get that there is a desire for clean energy but no one should kid themselves that solar is "green". Each panel requires a fantastic amount of energy to produce and the manufacture of them has toxic by products that are usually dumped as waste.

I agree.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[Cjay]

The centralised power grid model is antiquated and greed-based. We have the technology and the sense to redesign the system and to put the power over the electricity supply back into the hands of the consumers, where it belongs.

[panopticon]

G'day CJay,

Just thought I'd let you know that the new 'Caring For Our Community' funding applications came online today and might be applicable to your project/s.
http://www.nrm.gov.au/funding/index.html
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[Cjay]

The projects described in the opening post will be fully-funded very soon. Stay tuned for further updates.

[Anchor]

Posted by panopticon (here)
I've often mumbled about vanadium redox flow batteries as a means of providing storage for peak load balancing in a decentralised community based system. Mix in solar as part of the system (along with wind, hydro, geothermal, tidal etc) and a community would be able to manage its own supply/demand cycle. The key word here is manage. As I'm sure you're aware living with renewables makes for an interesting life (especially when things go wrong) and people need to become part of the process when they take responsibility for their own power generation. Unfortunately our modern societies are more about recreation than cooperation or self reliance so getting people to understand anything more than "light switch makes light go on" can be very frustrating. I'm amazed at the number of people who can't even change a light bulb or check a fuse...

Looks like I missed your response to my post when you originally made it - sorry. Thanks for that information on the vanadium batteries is very interesting. It is DC, so inverters will still be needed.

What you say about things going wrong is very important. I have designed a lot of redundancy into my systems - so I can move components around to cope with some kinds of failures. I will finalize the system this year and finally ask country energy to disconnect me, because right now I am paying the poles and wires charges but consuming no energy.

The approach I have adopted is not really in the community spirit, and Australian electrical regulations are very strict about power and power supply and distribution - pretty much you do it the governments way or not at all.

My intent is to share knowledge about this stuff and stop people getting ripped off. (One of my neighbors was quoted AUD $10,000 for a standalone solar bore pump!) I showed him a design for $3000 and offered to build it for him - and I would have still covered my time on that; and I know it works because my own runs that way.

[Cjay]

Posted by Anchor (here)
My intent is to share knowledge about this stuff and stop people getting ripped off. (One of my neighbors was quoted AUD $10,000 for a standalone solar bore pump!) I showed him a design for $3000 and offered to build it for him - and I would have still covered my time on that; and I know it works because my own runs that way.

Very interesting. I wish there were more people like you to help rid the world of greedy profiteers.

[panopticon]

Posted by Anchor (here)
Looks like I missed your response to my post when you originally made it - sorry. Thanks for that information on the vanadium batteries is very interesting. It is DC, so inverters will still be needed.

What you say about things going wrong is very important. I have designed a lot of redundancy into my systems - so I can move components around to cope with some kinds of failures. I will finalize the system this year and finally ask country energy to disconnect me, because right now I am paying the poles and wires charges but consuming no energy.

The approach I have adopted is not really in the community spirit, and Australian electrical regulations are very strict about power and power supply and distribution - pretty much you do it the governments way or not at all.

My intent is to share knowledge about this stuff and stop people getting ripped off. (One of my neighbors was quoted AUD $10,000 for a standalone solar bore pump!) I showed him a design for $3000 and offered to build it for him - and I would have still covered my time on that; and I know it works because my own runs that way.

G'day Anchor,

VRB is a very usable and scalable solution.
I had a chat with Professor Maria Skyllas-Kazaco (the co-inventor) back in 2010 regarding its use on site here. She was a bit surprised that I had her mobile phone number but after the initial shock we had a good talk. At the time she was working on 2nd gen VRB and said that in a few months the company, VFuel, should be selling systems. To date I am not aware of the cost of systems for remote site use (ie 5Kw+) but really should get off my arse and make some calls to find out!

Have you had any experience with the Optima battery? I was looking for a replacement for us and they seem to be very good. 10 year+ life, can be installed at angles (even upside down) and aren't as susceptible to freezing temps (15% loss as opposed to 30%+ loss for lead acid). Just curious if you, or anyone else for that matter, has used one or come across their use in service.

Here's a couple of videos explaining VRB tech:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=DUb5Coo3qdQ

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=0Uk0GQNgtqg

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[panopticon]

Here's a really good short interview with Professor Skyllas-Kazacos (from ~2009) where she explains how VRB work, that they are modular (this is a key advantage), where they are being used at the time of the interview, where they are applicable, their use in both electric vehicles and home appliations and how Government and industry policy has stemied the use, and knowledge in the publics mind, on VBR tech.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dWuxQDRyLGw

-- Pan

[Anchor]

Posted by panopticon (here)
At the time she was working on 2nd gen VRB and said that in a few months the company, VFuel, should be selling systems. To date I am not aware of the cost of systems for remote site use (ie 5Kw+) but really should get off my arse and make some calls to find out!

Well this is all very interesting timing. The final part of my system is the batteries. I am using a temporary solution based on a 400Ah 24v battery bank, but I have concluded that I need that to be over 1200Ah. 28.8kWh of storage. But this is factoring in the usual idea that you dont want to discharge them more than 20% in normal use.

Have you had any experience with the Optima battery? I was looking for a replacement for us and they seem to be very good. 10 year+ life, can be installed at angles (even upside down) and aren't as susceptible to freezing temps (15% loss as opposed to 30%+ loss for lead acid). Just curious if you, or anyone else for that matter, has used one or come across their use in service.

Yes I have one in my Prado, its the second battery which usually powers my ARB fridge/freezer when I am on the road.

The key difference between them and more conventional batteries is that the electrodes are spiral wound. Other than that they are regular AGM batteries. The main benefit is that they can be used for both enging cranking and Deep cycle usage - whereas regular car batteries can be destroyed (or their life curtailed) by deep-cycling them.

If you share more about your usage requirement, I may be able to help.

[panopticon]

G'day Anchor,

Thanks for the response.

Posted by Anchor (here)

Posted by panopticon (here)
At the time she was working on 2nd gen VRB and said that in a few months the company, VFuel, should be selling systems. To date I am not aware of the cost of systems for remote site use (ie 5Kw+) but really should get off my arse and make some calls to find out!

Well this is all very interesting timing. The final part of my system is the batteries. I am using a temporary solution based on a 400Ah 24v battery bank, but I have concluded that I need that to be over 1200Ah. 28.8kWh of storage. But this is factoring in the usual idea that you dont want to discharge them more than 20% in normal use.

The VRB were quite high in price when I asked due to their needing to be manually constructed and installation on site was also quite high (increased foundation costs because of the weight of liquid required and installation of system by expert on site).

This can be offset with the fact that they will never need replacing. Theoretically they will last forever, though components may need replacing in service of course.

It really comes down to finances (can you justify the investment of capital) which is why I mention them in association with a community project as opposed to individual installations.

Posted by Anchor (here)

Have you had any experience with the Optima battery? I was looking for a replacement for us and they seem to be very good. 10 year+ life, can be installed at angles (even upside down) and aren't as susceptible to freezing temps (15% loss as opposed to 30%+ loss for lead acid). Just curious if you, or anyone else for that matter, has used one or come across their use in service.

Yes I have one in my Prado, its the second battery which usually powers my ARB fridge/freezer when I am on the road.

The key difference between them and more conventional batteries is that the electrodes are spiral wound. Other than that they are regular AGM batteries. The main benefit is that they can be used for both enging cranking and Deep cycle usage - whereas regular car batteries can be destroyed (or their life curtailed) by deep-cycling them.

If you share more about your usage requirement, I may be able to help.

Thanks for the offer.

Really simple system.
Usage is buggar all on the remote install.
Couple of solar panels with a Air-X 12V for winter and night time (wind is really good here and the integrated sensors in the Air-X means we don't have problems with overload etc).
Run a couple of 12V batteries (200Ah total which is all we need) for down lighting, 12 V appliances (eg fridge, car radio & amp, coffee percolator [I needs my cuppa!], water pump for pressure during winter, laptop charging) and that's about it.
Gas for cooking, gravity fed water pressure when available (otherwise 12V pump from tanks) and fireplace for warmth.

We get down to around -4 C regularly in winter but sometimes as low as -8 C.

My interest in the Optima is their long life and being less susceptible to freezing temps. Also interested in the AGM based Ritar RA12 100SD for the same reasons. The fibreglass insides and the 50% discharge is very impressive so I'm tossing up which to use as our next replacement (still a few years off but I like to be prepared).

One of the reasons I'm attracted to the Optima is because of their long shelf discharge life. Store for 6 months between recharge is pretty impressive so I could lock one away in the sea container Faraday for use if needed later. Also their dual use capabilities, that you mentioned, was another reasons I was attracted as a few might be a good investment as they can be used for crank start and deep cycle.

Any help/thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
-- Pan

BTW, we have more than one site here and that was the reason we were interested in the VRB as a storage solution for the systems that could be integrated (ie those that run on 240V and/or have higher power requirements like the workshop).

[Anchor]

On paper the optima's are very good but I think expensive for what you need. True they are energy dense, but so what? If you are not in a car or mobile home, that is not so much of a problem.

There are other dual use 12v batteries out there, I have used these: http://www.mpower.com.au/Products/St...LTIMATE-Xtreme for small scale solar solutions. (And these http://www.apolloenergy.com.au/Renew...Components/12V, I am currently using 2 of the Haze N70's in my workshop which, via a 3kw inverter, drive my power tools and charge from a 500W solar panel array). The N70's and the Ultimate batteries looks suspiciously similar to me, even the plastic molding seems the same So I suspect marketing shenanigans.

(Note running the workshop on just 2 100Ah batteries, is not normal, its temporary, but it is working!)

To get 200Ah using optima batteries you are going to need to connect a number of them in parallel. This works, but introduces the possibility that each does not charge to the same voltage as the other, and the whole array gets out of balance over time; and as this gets progressively worse, the life expectancy of one or more of the batteries will be reduced.

That said, I am running 4 strings myself 4 x 24v 100Ah (each is 2 12V batteries). I minimized the problem by using the same lengths of cable from the battery terminals to a common point; but it is not perfect.

Each of those optima batteries, like any 12V lead acid battery is really 6 2v cells in series, so say you have 4 x 50A 12V batteries to make your 12V 200Ah array, you are effectively running 4 strings of cells.

I would consider a single string of 2V cells, each at 200Ah.

If you are worried about the cold - just get bigger batteries to compensate, and make sure your charge controller compensates correctly for the temperature of the the actual battery and not the ambient (which is often different due to the high thermal mass of the battery) - so you will need to be using a remote sensor.

[panopticon]

Posted by Anchor (here)
On paper the optima's are very good but I think expensive for what you need. True they are energy dense, but so what? If you are not in a car or mobile home, that is not so much of a problem.

There are other dual use 12v batteries out there, I have used these: http://www.mpower.com.au/Products/St...LTIMATE-Xtreme for small scale solar solutions. (And these http://www.apolloenergy.com.au/Renew...Components/12V, I am currently using 2 of the Haze N70's in my workshop which, via a 3kw inverter, drive my power tools and charge from a 500W solar panel array). The N70's and the Ultimate batteries looks suspiciously similar to me, even the plastic molding seems the same So I suspect marketing shenanigans.

(Note running the workshop on just 2 100Ah batteries, is not normal, its temporary, but it is working!)

To get 200Ah using optima batteries you are going to need to connect a number of them in parallel. This works, but introduces the possibility that each does not charge to the same voltage as the other, and the whole array gets out of balance over time; and as this gets progressively worse, the life expectancy of one or more of the batteries will be reduced.

That said, I am running 4 strings myself 4 x 24v 100Ah (each is 2 12V batteries). I minimized the problem by using the same lengths of cable from the battery terminals to a common point; but it is not perfect.

Each of those optima batteries, like any 12V lead acid battery is really 6 2v cells in series, so say you have 4 x 50A 12V batteries to make your 12V 200Ah array, you are effectively running 4 strings of cells.

I would consider a single string of 2V cells, each at 200Ah.

If you are worried about the cold - just get bigger batteries to compensate, and make sure your charge controller compensates correctly for the temperature of the the actual battery and not the ambient (which is often different due to the high thermal mass of the battery) - so you will need to be using a remote sensor.

G'day Anchor,

Thank you very much for the information.

We were running a string of 2v batteries (joined by "T" connectors) but found it difficult to quickly identify when a cell was faulty which pulls the entire series voltage down due to balancing.
Do you know a way of identifying a faulty cell in a series easily (sulfate build-up I know and in our case there wasn't any way of singling them out like this).
Changed to a 6v series for a while but are presently using N70T Century batteries in Parallel 'til they die (few years off hopefully).
We have a 1500W inverter for use with smaller power tools when needed and we have sized some of our power tool selection accordingly (ie cement mixer, drills, crosscut etc).

It's a really good solution we're using and works for us very well. Just don't have larger loads on the system than it can handle (eg Freezer, twin tub washing machine etc) and be conscious of what we are using when.
The bar fridge is yet to stop working so everything is fine.

Oh and a handy hint for anyone who is interested, keep am upright fridge full, that way when you open the door the cold air doesn't escape and you use less power.
That's my excuse anyway and I'm sticking to it!
-- Pan

[Hazel]

Cjay

await your update with keen interest...