At the Vatican, Up Against the World

[giovonni]

And thank you araucaria ...

In regards to the process of healing and releasing all the untold harm that has come about via the Roman Catholic Church, i myself have had to personally deal with the findings and discovery of new information still coming forth...

Recently my friend Alfred Webre posted an item in regards to St. Francis of Assisi ....
Though i feel most of it is historically true, i don't buy all of it via my personal research.

here is the article post in question...



Evil People
Francis of Assisi

Read here - http://one-evil.org/content/people_1...of_assisi.html

_______________________________________________________________________

Here is a brief exchange between Alfred and myself in regards to his posting it on facebook:

Gio Vonni sorry ~ Alfred ~ don't buy it

Gio Vonni ~ Whereas there is with no doubt much myth attached to Francis life, i can't believe your posting this stuff !

Gio Vonni ~ Note ~ i do agree the new pope is of much questionable past behavior.

***

Alfred Lambremont Webre III Gio Vonni - Hi! Sorry the Search for the Truth makes you squeamish

Alfred Lambremont Webre III I HAVE ONE WORD FOR THE PAPACY, THE VATICAN = DISGUSTING

***
Gio Vonni ~ Alfred, i lived as a Franciscan ~ Some were holy and some not so holy... But what makes me squeamish is any one who tries to paint the church (the world) as either all good or bad. Remember Alfred ~ there is no man or women who walks upon this plane, who isn't without some human frailty. Blessings Gio

***
Alfred Lambremont Webre III Thank you Gio. I am not after the Church, but the Papacy and the Vatican, which is different from the communion of the faithful, as you know. I actually had a personal peak experience at Assisi, Italy, especially when I climbed the tower there and saw the frescos. The Papacy and the Curia/Vatican is a usurpation of the communion of the faithful first by the Roman empire and then by the monarchs/bloodline bankers, and must be exposed, IMHO. In Light, Alfred

***
In closing, i have to admit Alfred is totally correct and right in proclaiming all must be exposed to the light.

giovonni

[MorningSong]

So, ex-Pope Ratzinger was to take a back seat to leading the Church, huh? This was done before he left:

Pope Benedict changes rituals for new pope's inauguration
Written by Cindy Wooden, Catholic News Service
Friday, 22 February 2013 13:16

VATICAN CITY - Pope Benedict XVI has ordered several changes to the Masses and liturgies that will mark the inauguration of the next pope's pontificate.

Rites and gestures that are not strictly sacramental will take place either before a Mass or in a ceremony not involving Mass, Msgr. Guido Marini, master of papal liturgical ceremonies, told the Vatican newspaper Feb. 22.

One of the most visual changes, he said, would be the restoration of the public "act of obedience" in which each cardinal present at the pope's inaugural Mass comes forward and offers his allegiance.

When Pope Benedict celebrated his inaugural Mass in 2005, 12 people were chosen to represent all Catholics: three cardinals, a bishop, a diocesan priest, a transitional deacon, a male religious, a female religious, a married couple and a young man and a young woman recently confirmed.

Marini said Pope Benedict personally approved the changes Feb. 18; they include offering a wider choice of traditional Mass prayers in polyphony and chant, rather than the new musical repertoire composed for the 2005 book.

After having personally experienced the liturgical rites drafted by Marini's predecessor — and approved by Pope Benedict immediately after his election — the Pope suggested "a few changes aimed at improving the text" of the rites for the beginning of a pontificate, formally known as the "Ordo Rituum pro Ministerii Petrini Initio Romae Episcopi."

The changes, Marini said, "follow in the line of the modifications made in papal liturgies" over the course of Pope Benedict's papacy.

The previous edition of the ritual handbook also called for the new pope to visit the basilicas of St. Paul Outside the Walls and St. Mary Major within two or three weeks of his installation. The new book, Marini said, leaves it up to the new pope to decide "when it would be most opportune, even at some distance from his election, and under what form he judges best, whether it be a Mass, a celebration of the Liturgy of the Hours or a particular liturgical act" like the one found in the 2005 ritual book.

On the other hand, in an e-mail response to questions, Marini told Catholic News Service that no significant modifications had been made to the "Ordo rituum conclavis," the book of rituals, Masses and prayers that accompany the conclave to elect a new pope.

[giovonni]

Thanks Aileen ...

Changing masses ... or pledging allegiances ~ won't sure up this floundering institution ...

i sense back seat driving is probably optional with this Vatican State vehicle ...

[MorningSong]

The news is palpitating with news about the new Pope.... such a "breath of fresh air"..... his sermons are repeated every hour.... I'm almost convinced myself that there might be something "good" in this.... lol

I just saw this article on the reason the Italian Cardinals were poo pooed..... and on the "new government" he will be forming..... change is definately in the air... will it be "good"?

Italy sighs as unholy alliance scuppers the home favourite for pope, Angelo Scola

Infighting between senior Italian cardinals repelled Church figures from overseas
Rome

Thursday 14 March 2013

That many Italians – both inside and outside the holy city – were hoping for a return to a “traditional” Italian pontificate after a gap of 35 years is not in doubt.

The Italian Bishops Conference had even prepared a message congratulating the Italian favourite, Angelo Scola, which, to much amusement, it sent out in error on Wednesday evening.

But within hours of cardinals entering the Sistine Chapel on Tuesday afternoon to begin the laborious task of electing a new pope, it was clear the knives were out for Cardinal Scola, the Archbishop of Milan.

Cardinal Scola, the bookies’ choice and leader of the Catholic world’s largest diocese, was surprised, if not a little shocked, to have been beaten by an unfancied Argentinian Cardinal in the very first round, according to La Stampa’s Vatican correspondent. Jorge Mario Bergoglio didn’t have enough votes for outright victory, but by then, the die was cast.

An unholy alliance between two other Italian grandees, Tarcisio Bertone and Angelo Sodano, who by all accounts can’t stand each other, had set the ball rolling for Cardinal Bergoglio. Overseas conclave members determined to put and end to the warring Italians’ stranglehold on the Curia joined in. When the pragmatic and powerful American grouping led by New York’s Timothy Dolan backed the Argentinian’s cause it was all over for Cardinal Scola. Leading Vaticanologist Massimo Franco spoke for many pundits this morning when he said years of infighting between senior Italian cardinals had repelled Church figures from overseas. Instead, Pope Francis represented a fresh start – and a more global, inclusive Church. That fresh start needs a new government. Pope Francis’s most important appointment will be that of secretary of state – effectively prime minister to the Pontiff’s supreme monarch.

Choosing the occupant of this powerful post takes on a special significance this time around, given the dreadful mess the last Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, is considered to have made of it. Cardinal Bertone was seen to have accumulated too much power over the Vatican’s finances for himself and close associates, as well as presiding over the Holy See’s calamitous diplomatic relations, which in the past two years have broken down with Beijing and Dublin.

His power and the number of enemies he made – including powerful figures such as Cardinal Scola and Cardinal Sodano – were said to be at the heart of the infighting that has riven the Vatican in the reign of Benedict XVI.

Holy See spokesman Federico Lombardi said today that Francis might ask for the current Vatican administration to remain in place – but only for a few weeks to allow himself breathing space. Vatican expert Gerard O’Connell, who writes for La Stampa’s Vatican Insider noted: “He’s only just been elected. All his things are in Argentina. There’s holy week coming up. We can’t expect much to happen before Easter.”

But he was in no doubt that soon after Pope Francis would shake up the Roman Curia, the Vatican’s sclerotic administrative body. Mr O’Connell said under the new Pope there would be “a very new style of government” and that his new secretary of state – and de facto premier – “would be a very different sort of person”. He added: “Francis will lead by example. He will say to people, ‘We’re here to do the work of the gospel, not to promote ourselves’.” He also noted that some fresh faces and even some surprises might lie in store for the musty corridors of the Holy City.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...a-8535348.html

[araucaria]

Posted by MorningSong (here)
The news is palpitating with news about the new Pope.... such a "breath of fresh air"..... his sermons are repeated every hour.... I'm almost convinced myself that there might be something "good" in this.... lol

I just saw this article on the reason the Italian Cardinals were poo pooed..... and on the "new government" he will be forming..... change is definately in the air... will it be "good"?

Italy sighs as unholy alliance scuppers the home favourite for pope, Angelo Scola

Infighting between senior Italian cardinals repelled Church figures from overseas
Rome

Thursday 14 March 2013

That many Italians – both inside and outside the holy city – were hoping for a return to a “traditional” Italian pontificate after a gap of 35 years is not in doubt.

The Italian Bishops Conference had even prepared a message congratulating the Italian favourite, Angelo Scola, which, to much amusement, it sent out in error on Wednesday evening.

But within hours of cardinals entering the Sistine Chapel on Tuesday afternoon to begin the laborious task of electing a new pope, it was clear the knives were out for Cardinal Scola, the Archbishop of Milan.

Cardinal Scola, the bookies’ choice and leader of the Catholic world’s largest diocese, was surprised, if not a little shocked, to have been beaten by an unfancied Argentinian Cardinal in the very first round, according to La Stampa’s Vatican correspondent. Jorge Mario Bergoglio didn’t have enough votes for outright victory, but by then, the die was cast.

An unholy alliance between two other Italian grandees, Tarcisio Bertone and Angelo Sodano, who by all accounts can’t stand each other, had set the ball rolling for Cardinal Bergoglio. Overseas conclave members determined to put and end to the warring Italians’ stranglehold on the Curia joined in. When the pragmatic and powerful American grouping led by New York’s Timothy Dolan backed the Argentinian’s cause it was all over for Cardinal Scola. Leading Vaticanologist Massimo Franco spoke for many pundits this morning when he said years of infighting between senior Italian cardinals had repelled Church figures from overseas. Instead, Pope Francis represented a fresh start – and a more global, inclusive Church. That fresh start needs a new government. Pope Francis’s most important appointment will be that of secretary of state – effectively prime minister to the Pontiff’s supreme monarch.

Choosing the occupant of this powerful post takes on a special significance this time around, given the dreadful mess the last Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, is considered to have made of it. Cardinal Bertone was seen to have accumulated too much power over the Vatican’s finances for himself and close associates, as well as presiding over the Holy See’s calamitous diplomatic relations, which in the past two years have broken down with Beijing and Dublin.

His power and the number of enemies he made – including powerful figures such as Cardinal Scola and Cardinal Sodano – were said to be at the heart of the infighting that has riven the Vatican in the reign of Benedict XVI.

Holy See spokesman Federico Lombardi said today that Francis might ask for the current Vatican administration to remain in place – but only for a few weeks to allow himself breathing space. Vatican expert Gerard O’Connell, who writes for La Stampa’s Vatican Insider noted: “He’s only just been elected. All his things are in Argentina. There’s holy week coming up. We can’t expect much to happen before Easter.”

But he was in no doubt that soon after Pope Francis would shake up the Roman Curia, the Vatican’s sclerotic administrative body. Mr O’Connell said under the new Pope there would be “a very new style of government” and that his new secretary of state – and de facto premier – “would be a very different sort of person”. He added: “Francis will lead by example. He will say to people, ‘We’re here to do the work of the gospel, not to promote ourselves’.” He also noted that some fresh faces and even some surprises might lie in store for the musty corridors of the Holy City.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...a-8535348.html

As I was saying on the Here&Now thread, I think this guy needs all the positive energy people like us can give him. This is what will empower him to perform the tasks we would like to see done. He has adopted a path similar to John Paul the First and we need to make sure the promise of March becomes concrete action in April and May and beyond, rather than see a remake of 1978 which led to the 35 years that we have just experienced.

[giovonni]

Many years ago i knew a Franciscan priest (from Argentina) who studied papal law, who once conveyed to me of the deep reverence the Franciscan Order evoked from the masses of followers from the South American continent...

With nearly 43 percent of the 1 billion Catholics faithful worldwide... there should be no real surprises into why (especially during this time) the name Francis was chosen.

***********

What’s in a papal moniker

When Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio took the name Francis on being elected the 267th Pope of the Catholic Church on Wednesday, the Jesuit from Buenos Aires was only following a papal tradition that began in AD 533 with Mercurius who chose the name John II.

Mercurius changed his name as he felt that his baptismal name was that of a Roman god and it would not augur well for a pope to be known by that name. Since then, all popes except Adrian 1V (1522 to 1523) and Marcellus 11 (1555) have changed their baptismal names and took the names of their predecessors, mentors or saints during their pontificate.

It’s decision tied up in history and tradition, and it has more than a little symbolic value. In papal tradition, newly elected pontiffs choose a name to identify themselves during their reigns. A papal moniker offers an early indicator of what his papacy might be like and it will reflect his own personal spirituality.

That Pope Francis has chosen a new name may signal that he wants to lead the church into a new chapter. Many see it as a tribute to St. Francis of Assisi, the 13th century saint who lived in poverty and heard a voice to “rebuild the Church.” Pope Francis being a Jesuit, the name could also be a reference to Francis Xavier, a co-founder of the Jesuits in the 16th century.

John was the most common name used by popes over the years. As many as 23 popes have taken the name. The names Gregory and Benedict have been chosen by 16 popes each. Fourteen popes have chosen the name Clement, Leo (13), Innocent (12), Pius (12), Stephen (9), Urban (8), Alexander (7), Adrian (6), Paul (6), and Martin (5), Nicholas (5) and Celestine (5). Four popes each have been known by the names Anastasius, Eugene, Sergius, and Honoriu.

The last pope to inaugurate a name was John Paul I, in 1978, who did so in honour of his two immediate predecessors, John XXIII and Paul V1.

He died 33 days later to be succeeded by John Paul II, a name taken in his honour by the Pole Karol Wojtyla.

Saint Peter the Apostle was the first pope and no pope after him had chosen the name Peter. They include even popes John X1V and Sergius 1V who had their baptismal names as Peter.

Telesphorus, Eleutherius, Zephyrinus, Eutychian, Miltiades, Hormisdas, Zosimus, Symmachus, Simplicius, and Vigilius are some most unique papal names.

Interestingly, it was the first pope Peter who remains the longest serving pope. According to the Catholic Encyclopaedia, he reigned for 35 years (Ad 32 to 67). But after that, it was Pope Pius IX (1846 to 1878) who was the longest serving pope, 31 years and seven months. Pope John Paul 11, who passed away in 2005, was the third longest serving pope: 26 years and 5 months.

Source: http://www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...cle4508851.ece

[giovonni]

Via ~ Alfred Lambremont Webre's ~ EXOPOLOTICS

Pope Francis: His Jesuitical, Extraterrestrial, “False Prophet”, and Political Identities



VANCOUVER, BC - Already controversial within hours of his nomination to the Papacy, Argentine-born Pope Francis I has now been identified by informed hermeneutics researchers as the possible "Petrus Romanus" or "False Prophet" of the Book of Revelation.

March 13 is a significant date, both in Exopolitics and in the hermeneutical interpretation of Pope Francis ...

Read more - http://exopolitics.blogs.com/exopoli...manus-or-.html

[araucaria]

Maybe Bergoglio made mistakes 35 years ago, I don’t know; someone says he merely lacked courage, I don’t know. Should we all be powerless to act today on account of mistakes we may have made 35 years ago? I hope not!

He makes a masonic hand sign. So what? He is a Jesuit, a conservative, so what? He has offered to help the poor, let us make sure he does that. He has got the leverage to do more good than any of the rest of us, if we put his mind to it. If he does nothing else, so what?

He corresponds to the prophesied ‘Petrus Romanus’ figure: so, do we really want to play out this ancient scenario to the bitter end? We can stop the whole thing right now.

We’ve been hearing from Carol Rosin for 20 years that the false alien invasion threat was the last card to be played. But remember who her source was. If we can overlook the fact that Wernher von Braun was a Nazi, can’t we give the pope a little slack?

Etc. etc.

[noxon medem]

..
-

Please, give the new Pope a chance ...
( where is J. Lennon when you need him ..)

He might just represent a different timeline
( the origin of jesuits are strong, but humble ..).

&
Be well

..
-

PS. ( Possibly Some music )

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=bqrypsYtHkE

https://youtube.com/watch?v=bqrypsYtHkE
Give Peace A Chance - John Lennon & Plastic Ono Band - Toronto 1969

:- )

[giovonni]

araucaria

i would like to believe what you say...

But not until i see a real conversion within the church itself ~ Say for starters finally allowing women full and equal membership (priesthood)... As well as fully implementing the true spirit of Vatican II !

Note ~ until i see some real change in Rome, i will remain a skeptic and a distracting force against its wayward ways. As i said before, during my religious vocational period 'i witnessed some men that were holy and then some who weren't so holy ... It is up to the new Pope Francis, to prove which path he will lead the faithful unto down or heavenly upward ?

[Lifebringer]

There goes the candlestick, not even the new POPE will be able to stop Christ.

[giovonni]

From my ancestral family home of San Giovanni of Flora Italia ~ a tidbit on my namesake ...

Hopefully this might help some here understand 'where i am coming from and going' ...

Joachim of Fiore, also known as Joachim of Flora and in Italian Gioacchino da Fiore (c. 1135 – March 30, 1202), was the founder of the monastic order of San Giovanni in Fiore. He was a mystic, a theologian and an esoterist. His followers are called Joachimites.

The mystical basis of his teaching is his doctrine of the "Eternal Gospel," founded on an interpretation of the text in Revelation xiv, 6.

His theories can be considered millenarian; he believed that history, by analogy with the Trinity, was divided into three fundamental epochs:

The Age of the Father, corresponding to the Old Testament, characterized by obedience of mankind to the Rules of God;

The Age of the Son, between the advent of Christ and 1260, represented by the New Testament, when Man became the son of God;

The Age of the Holy Spirit, impending (in 1260), when mankind was to come in direct contact with God, reaching the total freedom preached by the Christian message. The Kingdom of the Holy Spirit, a new dispensation of universal love, would proceed from the Gospel of Christ, but transcend the letter of it. In this new Age the ecclesiastical organization would be replaced and the Order of the Just would rule the Church. This Order of the Just was later identified with the Franciscan order by his follower Gerardo of Borgo San Donnino.

According to Joachim, only in this third Age will it be possible to really understand the words of God in its deepest meanings, and not merely literally. He concluded that this age would begin in 1260 based on the Book of Revelation (verses 11:3 and 12:6, which mention "one thousand two hundred and sixty days").[2] In this year, instead of the parousia (second Advent of Christ), a new Epoch of peace and concord would begin, thus making the hierarchy of the Church unnecessary.

Joachim distinguished between the "reign of justice" or of "law", in an imperfect society, and the "reign of freedom" in a perfect society.The mystical basis of his teaching is his doctrine of the "Eternal Gospel," founded on an interpretation of the text in Revelation xiv, 6.

His theories can be considered millenarian; he believed that history, by analogy with the Trinity, was divided into three fundamental epochs:

The Age of the Father, corresponding to the Old Testament, characterized by obedience of mankind to the Rules of God;

The Age of the Son, between the advent of Christ and 1260, represented by the New Testament, when Man became the son of God;

The Age of the Holy Spirit, impending (in 1260), when mankind was to come in direct contact with God, reaching the total freedom preached by the Christian message. The Kingdom of the Holy Spirit, a new dispensation of universal love, would proceed from the Gospel of Christ, but transcend the letter of it. In this new Age the ecclesiastical organization would be replaced and the Order of the Just would rule the Church. This Order of the Just was later identified with the Franciscan order by his follower Gerardo of Borgo San Donnino.

According to Joachim, only in this third Age will it be possible to really understand the words of God in its deepest meanings, and not merely literally. He concluded that this age would begin in 1260 based on the Book of Revelation (verses 11:3 and 12:6, which mention "one thousand two hundred and sixty days").[2] In this year, instead of the parousia (second Advent of Christ), a new Epoch of peace and concord would begin, thus making the hierarchy of the Church unnecessary.

Joachim distinguished between the "reign of justice" or of "law", in an imperfect society, and the "reign of freedom" in a perfect society. [3]

As i have come to call it ~ the new age of the christconsciousness

Obviously Joachim was a bit ahead of his time but offsetted a bit... Most probably due to the Church's patriarchal hierarchy hijacking and misinterpreting the true message and meaning of the 'the word' of God from His flock.

Please note:

Pope Alexander IV condemned his writings and those of his follower Gerardo of Borgo San Donnino and set up a commission that in 1263 at the Synod of Arles declared Joachim's theories heretical.

More here ~ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...n/joachim.html

also here - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08406c.htm

[sunflower]

Joachim's theory makes sense to me. Anyone condemned for heresy deserves a second glance.

[UpToLight]

Posted by giovonni (here)
Via ~ Alfred Lambremont Webre's ~ EXOPOLOTICS

Pope Francis: His Jesuitical, Extraterrestrial, “False Prophet”, and Political Identities



VANCOUVER, BC - Already controversial within hours of his nomination to the Papacy, Argentine-born Pope Francis I has now been identified by informed hermeneutics researchers as the possible "Petrus Romanus" or "False Prophet" of the Book of Revelation.

March 13 is a significant date, both in Exopolitics and in the hermeneutical interpretation of Pope Francis ...

Read more - http://exopolitics.blogs.com/exopoli...manus-or-.html

New World Pope = New World Order?

[araucaria]

Posted by UpToLight (here)

Posted by giovonni (here)
Via ~ Alfred Lambremont Webre's ~ EXOPOLOTICS

Pope Francis: His Jesuitical, Extraterrestrial, “False Prophet”, and Political Identities



VANCOUVER, BC - Already controversial within hours of his nomination to the Papacy, Argentine-born Pope Francis I has now been identified by informed hermeneutics researchers as the possible "Petrus Romanus" or "False Prophet" of the Book of Revelation.

March 13 is a significant date, both in Exopolitics and in the hermeneutical interpretation of Pope Francis ...

Read more - http://exopolitics.blogs.com/exopoli...manus-or-.html

New World Pope = New World Order?

That is the kneejerk inference that this kneejerk piece of journalistic trash is designed to produce. We can do better than that.

[araucaria]

Posted by giovonni (here)
araucaria

i would like to believe what you say...

But not until i see a real conversion within the church itself ~ Say for starters finally allowing women full and equal membership (priesthood)... As well as fully implementing the true spirit of Vatican II !

Note ~ until i see some real change in Rome, i will remain a skeptic and a distracting force against its wayward ways. As i said before, during my religious vocational period 'i witnessed some men that were holy and then some who weren't so holy ... It is up to the new Pope Francis, to prove which path he will lead the faithful unto down or heavenly upward ?

Giovonni, I disagree that you can sit back and believe something when you see it: if everyone does that, then it ain’t gonna happen. This in my opinion is the mechanism for giving one’s power away, as opposed to focused intention, which correctly applied by such a large number, could make the papacy the most powerful force for good on this planet. See my posts below.

Posted by araucaria (here)

Posted by ulli (here)
@Flash...who wrote:

"Strange that you link this to slavery Ulli, aren't we in a global planetary slavery right now?
If so, how can we expect the Elite or PTB or dracos to give us any freedom?
The door opening through them, i doubt it.
Their hand may have to be forced.
It makes me think of someone once telling me it was karma, and I answered that my karma was to stop her.
The job has to be done by us, wishfull thinking or magical happenings are not enough to have people as deeply ingrained in their ownerships change at what seems the flip of fingers. Lots of work usually is done prior by the slaves."

To be honest, I think this is debatable. While there are definitely signs of slavery
there are also signs of freedom, and of possibility of escape,
as well as of "slave masters" who are generously offering amnesty.
There are many good people in positions of power who have the best of mankind at heart.
Who are loving and sincere.
Not only is the elite made up of 'black hats' and 'white hats',
but within each member there is a mixture of goodwill and need for personal survival.

No one person has all the power, and those who are identified with institutions
usually have less power than someone who has escaped the trappings of
material society, with it's status symbols, and lives a simple life.

For good example of a mixture of oversimplistic attitudes to good and bad in people, especially those with power, take the former Cardinal Bergoglio. As a Jesuit (bad), there is doubt over his role during the dark years in Argentina: maybe he didn’t protect some of his left-leaning order, who disappeared. So there were Jesuits on both sides of that conflict – this means that whatever side you take, some Jesuits are good people.



For some, the new pope is a good man, who looks after the poor and lives a simple personal life, taking the animal-lover Francis of Assissi as his role model. For others, if he is in that top job, then he cannot be a good man. And they will likely discover that Berg in German means mountain and oglio in Italian means eye, put two and two together and decide that he is the eye on the pyramid. They will likely speculate that he was smuggled away to Argentina in a U-boat at the end of the war as a 9-year-old fascist.

Let me put a more positive slant on all this. The major issue this time around was choosing between a pro-Curia cardinal and a reformist. The Curia are called the Romans, so the Petrus Romanus scenario could have been any one of those guys getting in; so possibly choosing a reformist from the other side of the planet was the best answer to derailing the apocalyptic game plan and inflicting an unexpected defeat on the divided Romans.

Given that the plan was/is to destroy the Church, it is worth looking at why we might want to preserve it in some form, and how it might be turned more unambiguously into a force for good. One obvious area of competence is prayer. When they say the conclave is inspired by the Holy Spirit, it means that over a hundred people gathered together with a single common focus, and with countless millions outside also focusing on that purpose, the outcome will be the right one for that particular situation. These are large-scale Intention experiments that didn’t wait for Lynne McTaggart to call them that. Hence choosing a pope is something that just about everyone is involved in to some extent, regardless of their views on popery: might as well do it consciously and positively. Since, regardless of our views on leadership, leaders do provide leadership to many (including many who claim otherwise), better have good leaders providing good leadership; which is done by using the same focus that got them elected to guide them every step of the way. A good leader knows that they are not towing people behind him, they are being pushed.


This is how it works, and has been working up till now. Ratzinger got in on this principle and was thrown out on this principle, when he no longer had this spiritual constituency to carry on. The mechanics of his resignation in relation to this or that scandal or agenda are ultimately irrelevant details. Collectively we went to the brink, had a good look down, and have now stepped back.

Posted by araucaria (here)
Pursuing my thoughts on leadership in an earlier post. If the leader is acting out on behalf of/driven by the grassroots, then we may take the counterintuitive view that politicians of late have been no exception, and have continued to fulfill voters’ expectations. As these expectations approached zero and worse, they have behaved accordingly. We do not get the leadership that we deserve or want, we get the leadership that we expect.

The key then is to expect what we really want (and deserve). This is a form of the ‘naïve optimism’ that is so decried on this forum and that some of us see rather differently. It cannot be truly naive since it is conscious. It is actually ‘sophisticated innocence’, which only sounds like an oxymoron to the extent that we haven’t fully understood the concept.

How do we get from where we are to where we want to be? Well some sophisticated innocents have been voting in a few politicians like forum member Simon Parkes, who are already acting upon these positive expectations. As our expectations gradually increase, their performance will follow. This will be so, just as surely as the same principle has so far applied in the opposite direction: the more corrupt we can imagine our politicians to be, the more corrupt they have shown themselves to be.

Unfortunately, I am not sure that forums like Avalon, yes Avalon, have turned this corner yet.

[giovonni]

araucaria

Good luck with that 'happening' thing' ...

And as far as sitting and waiting ... i've done (served) enough time within this dying institution to come to the realization that when its foundations were laid in Rome, it was not organized solely for the purpose of spreading the words of Christ Jesus ... In my shared opinion, there was and still is a very sinister set alternative agenda ?

Note - i heeded a call many years ago from within (prompted by a priest calling from the alter pew) responding to the outcry from the public media in regards to the onslaught of reported molestations within the Catholic Church then in the U. S. the pastor said that quote "if we (the congregation) felt disturbed- disgusted and disgruntled by these claims and accusations, then we should get up and do something about it." ... i later contacted that priest and informed him of my interest in his challenge, he seem annoyed and spoke briefly with me, he informed me that he was preparing leave to go on a vacation and did not have the time to talk with me. note, i did find a priest and congregation in assisting me in my pursuit... And soon not long after, i did begin a vocation within the church. Though it did not take long for me to see and realize that the change could not (would not) come from inside the institution, it had to come from the church's faithful (its members ) too finally say enough of this sickness. the Universal Catholic Church, is (and has acted) very much like a dysfunctional family, and we all (especially us adults) must finally end this sickness and denial.

The Catholic Church was (is) founded and based on the life and teachings of Christ Jesus. His 'Word' needs no building nor institution too shelter its truth. Those faithful who have learned-practiced and heeded that constant truth need never fear. It is those who have concealed the whole truth within the darkness from the light of day (in Jesus name) must deal with their deceitful ways. For the veil of unbelief is finally being lifted from upon this world... We as spiritual beings living as human beings are (and have always been) the true intended god like temples Christ Jesus first preached about.

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The latest from Argentina ...

Pope Francis was often quiet on Argentine sex abuse cases as archbishop



HURLINGHAM, Argentina — Father Julio Cesar Grassi was a celebrity in the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires. The young, dynamic, ­media-savvy priest networked with wealthy Argentines to fund an array of schools, orphanages and job training programs for poor and abandoned youths, winning praise from Argentine politicians and his superior, Archbishop Jorge Mario Bergoglio. Grassi called his foundation Felices los Niños, “Happy Children.” ...

Read more - http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...wpmk=MK0000200

[araucaria]

Thanks Giovonni,
I have seen some of the good and the bad in the Church and personally have no position to defend or objective to attain in this whole business. Ultimately some stage might be erached when the institution has outlived its usefulness - some would say it has already done so, others would say it was a mistake from the outset. I am not saying they are wrong.

The point is: it is no good for a problem solver to be saying 'I wouldn't have started from here'. This is where we are at, and so this is the starting point for getting wherever we are going. That is the best anyone can do, and also the least.

Thank you again for all your posts and best wishes to you.

[giovonni]

will share this here... for your inspection ...

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From The Corbettreport Report ...

Bitter Past: Pope Francis and Argentina's Dirty War

Published on Mar 19, 2013

Last week over a billion Catholics around the world watched as the Vatican conclave elected Jorge Mario Bergoglio as the next Pope. But now, as researchers like Professor Michel Chossudovsky of the University of Ottawa are pointing out, Bergoglio's past points to his likely involvement in crimes against humanity. This is the GRTV Feature Interview with your host James Corbett and our special guest Professor Michel Chossudovsky.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=WqM3WeRl7Z4

[araucaria]

Giovonni, you've been thanked 16,666 times, so I shan't thank you again, you're a bit of a devil yourself I see

It seems there is not one just man left on this planet. So, do we resign ourselves to the Sodom & Gomorrah scenario again, or do we try and clean up the mess with the less than perfect personnel that we all are? In an emergency, you cannot afford to have people in handcuffs sitting around doing nothing. You never know, if you forgive, they just might do something that makes you forget.

Also, we might pause to think that amid all the mudslinging there is a certain amount of collateral damage. Some people for instance think 'Bill Ryan, ah yes, Serpo', or 'Bill Ryan, scientology, enough said'. Here on Avalon, we know that view to be mistaken.

There are a whole lot more Bill Ryans out there.