Bill, Why Dianetics is Not For Me

[music]

Bill, you posted some information on Dianetics, for which I thank you, and I said I would get back to you. Rather than resurrect the thread where you did this, I will reply here.

We each have our journey, and if Dianetics truly helps someone to become happy and aware, then I am happy for them, but this is not for me. I will politely give my reasons below, you, or others may read them or not, whichever is your preference. I will not be offended if no one reads them. These are my opinions, and the concerns I express are mine, and not a condemnation of anyone whose opinion differs from mine.

I find Dianetics to be overly head based – that is – it doesn’t quite make it to the heart. For me, if we wish to be balanced, and “clear”, we need to address our issues both from the root, and from the head, and to draw these to each other in the heart. Our feminine, root-based processes make their way to the heart readily, while our masculine, head-based processes have difficulty. They encounter a stumbling block, and that stumbling block is wily enough to construct ersatz awareness to avoid becoming entangled with what it sees as inferior human processes.

Bill, in your Q & A thread, you were asked how are we to believe that Dianetics is a valid tool for awareness when we look at the behaviour of L Ron Hubbard, who developed it? Your answer was along the lines of “many great men are flawed”. Interesting in light of my comments above is the fact that I have never once heard the poor behaviour of a woman excused with “many a great woman is flawed”, but I have heard the “flawed great man” excuse more times than I wish to recall. Is this excuse itself not a symptom of the over-dominance and control of masculine energy in our society? For me, awareness is about balance – the masculine and the feminine.

Dianetics also seems to me to be heavy biased toward the Freudian school of psycho-analysis, a school which I have problems with, and which I personally see as a disempowerment mechanism. Memories and associated pain are not just restricted to the mind – scar tissue, for example, carries emotional and psychological pain, as well as physical pain long after normal healing would be expected to have been completed. Spirit, likewise may be affected in this manner, but as is relevant to spirit. I agree that Dianetics has as its core thrust a notion of processing of issues (engrams), but ultimately, I feel the whole framework is disempowering to the individual. We are beautiful, powerful beings, part of the all, who choose to incarnate at a point in space and time. We know joy and sorrow, flow and blockage, pain and pleasure, and many other things which give us life experience, some problematic that we label “issues”. Rather than seeing these issues as signs of “powerlessness” of the individual (much in the same way as the concept is used in alcoholics anonymous, or narcotics anonymous), perhaps it would be wiser to see them as “placeholders” indicative of necessary future work?

Or as an invitation to learn a lesson?

Without the mediating effect of energetic balance in clearing work, the mind can say things like “99% of the population are mentally unstable”, and those who are likewise mind-focussed can be easily misled into thinking they are saying a good thing. The truth of the matter in my opinion is that “the majority of the population are disempowered because we live within an enforced energetic imbalance”. It is very easy to convince someone “it is all in the mind” when we live in an energetically unbalanced society, and where bodily (somatic), spiritual or emotional intelligence, is not generally considered.

Powerlessness creates a vacuum which is all too easily filled by people who are energetically imbalanced and pre-disposed to the masculine energy of control. In case what I mean isn’t clear here, this is the society we currently labour under, and this is the crucible of the school of thought that wishes to exert ultimate control over us all through complete disempowerment. An admission within the individual of “powerlessness” is tacit consent to be directed by the will of an external force. It is the invitation for the vampire to enter the house.

We are not the powerless, shallow, two-dimensional beings that I see Dianetics saying it can turn into “gods”, though certainly, to some extent, many of us have been made to believe we are. We have been made that way by an energetically imbalanced society that is head focused, and controlled by people who prosper under the dominant masculine energy to the detriment of 99% of the population. Without energetic balance, quite simply, there is no heart, and it is only in the heart, when the poles are reunited, that we become God.

The way out of the state of imbalance is not to use a head-focussed, quasi-Freudian, “its all in the mind” approach
.....................
The way out is to realise that our true nature is not a duality, with one camp dominant over the other – our true nature is a unity of balanced polarities, firmly seated in the heart, fully inclusive, and with no ruling elite, whether it be cabal or mind.

Love and Blessings to All

[Bill Ryan]

-------

That's okay! You can do anything you like.

[GoodETxSG]

I haven't seen Bill's Thread on this subject (You should paste a link to it in this Thread). I can comment on the book.

I think I read Dianetics in 1988 (I think)... and read it cover to cover (With a dictionary in the other hand).

I think I used the little fish in brackish water analogy and Engram word for years before I even knew it was related to Scientology (And years later until I knew what Scientology was).

I am absolutely NOT a Scientologist by any means nor will I get into the bashing of anyone's beliefs... but I PERSONALLY found the book very helpful in my own growth.

Like I said I read it cover to cover, I didn't join a cult or jump up on anyone's coffee table and go freaky or anything like that.

I just read it, and moved on to the next possible piece to the puzzle I could find at that age. The Internet really hadn't been invented by Al Gore Yet so we were so limited in those days to physical books, it was horrible!

[we-R-one]

Hi Music,

I really appreciate your point of view and can in many ways relate to what you're saying. Just to be clear to the readers, I'm not picking one side over the other and I realize that's not what Music is implying either. I'm grateful for both perspectives as it aides in my growth and understanding. I can probably better address your point of view Music, more so than Dianetics as I've had no exposure to it's principles until now. Even then, my scope is limited because it takes time to absorb the methods and ideology behind it's makings.

Becoming heart-centered is key, I believe to our survival and ability to co-exist with one another and as one. I became aware of this only a year ago, when all the pieces to the puzzle of this particular aspect, started to come together for me, which was the inspiration for "The Solutions" thread. As mentioned before by David Icke, the Gnostic teachings even enforce this notion of humans being heart-centered in past writings, so this aligned with the thought process I had when I experienced the kundalini. The thought process was in the heart not the mind. To gain this understanding I had to go through 24 years of pain and abuse before I came to this conclusion. This was a spiritual awakening that wasn't realized until 21 years later! Had I done Dianetics would I have cleared this engram before and never coming to this understanding?

My journey to get to the point of where I am today was all organic. The star seed attributes started when I was about 5, though it's possible they could have been sooner, I just don't remember. I never studied under any one or anything and I have no formal training, I am self taught....at least in this lifetime. So when I look at the Dianetics aspect, and if I'm understanding correctly from what little I know, it's the quicker version for someone to obtain star seed attributes by clearing engrams so they can have more of the god-like abilities? So you cannot obtain these powers until you clear engrams, do I have that right? My concern would be that this isn't an organic approach and things could be missed that are of great value that one could only learn had they experienced the pain generated from the moment of the lesson rather than washing it away via an engram cleansing or whatever you want to call it. It was because of the "issues" put before me that I was able to understand and grow and become more heart-centered. You cannot avoid the pain! How can you be of service to others if have no understanding of the pain caused and felt by those experiencing the process of soul evolution? Frick I have so many questions that I haven't had a chance to ask Jiminii yet because I'm still trying to catch up on all the threads.

I'm probably the perfect person to look at dianetics because of my background of not being influenced by anyone's methodology and yet still being able to have obtained the so called "god-like" abilities without any teachings. I don't know why I can do these things...., an older soul from the future maybe?.... but I do feel that all have the ability at some point through the process of a natural evolution growth to obtain the same skill sets. If the point of Dianetics is to speed up the process, I do worry that the powers obtained can be abused by those who have yet to become heart-centered. It's kinda like the cart before the horse maybe? This is what I'm referring to when I say it's imperative that we get our spiritual houses in order first through being heart-centered. To obtain powers before hand could very well be catastrophic.

I'm having difficulty finding the words to express my thoughts and my response is probably premature since I've haven't read the book on Dianetics, but I felt the need to respond. I wish I had more time to explore this in depth and rapidly, in order to keep up with the flow of conversation of those who have already read. I'll do my best to take a look so I have a more well rounded viewpoint. I can understand your concerns Music and they should be taken into consideration by others in order to bring balance to the teachings of the likes of Dianetics or any other methodology that bypasses the organic state of being within the heart.

[Dorjezigzag]

Dianetics also seems to me to be heavy biased toward the Freudian school of psycho-analysis

Please can you explain the conclusion you have made because I would not equate The works of Sigmund Freud with Scientology.
Every spiritual person, including myself, likes to do a bit of Freud Bashing, but no one can deny he has had a huge influence on our culture.

The Latin for I is of course ego, in ancient Rome if you said ego you would be referring to your self. Other prominent figures such as Kant gave us an extended definition of this word, but the current concept of this word takes most influence from the coke fueled words of Sigmund Freud.

Freud was of course a psychologists, which is a word that comes from the word psyche

The basic meaning of the Greek word ψυχή (psūkhē) was "life" in the sense of "breath", formed from the verb ψύχω (psukhō, "to blow"). Derived meanings included "spirit", "soul", "ghost", and ultimately "self" in the sense of "conscious personality" or "psyche".

But Freud did not believe in a soul. His definition of the psyche was

• The id, which represents the instinctual drives of an individual and remains largely unconscious.
• The super-ego, which represents a person's conscience and their internalization of societal norms and morality.
• The ego, which is conscious and serves to integrate the drives of the id with the prohibitions of the super-ego. Freud believed this conflict to be at the heart of neurosis.

This is why Freud and Jung had there famous falling out because Jung believed that the unconscious was far more than just about instincts, that there was spiritual essence, that connected in a collective unconscious.
He believed in reincarnation, in other dimensions, in our god like potential. Fascinated with Esoteric texts from history and the early science of Alchemy. Therefore the Jungian branch has far more in common with scientology than Freud.

Freud essentially did not believe in the soul everything could be explained on a psychosexual instinctual basis. So why are you equating scientology with Freud that comes from totally the opposite sphere.

I don’t think some people on this forum are actually listening to those that are experienced in scientology are saying. No one on this forum to my awareness is saying that the current organisation of scientology is a good thing; they all seem to agree it has been subverted as happens to most large organisations. All they are saying is that the psychological techniques developed can be, if used properly, beneficial to the process of awareness of psyche, but psyche in the traditional sense of the word, not in the Freudian sense of the word.

If we have heart we should not deny another’s experience of psyche and their expression of it.

[GoodETxSG]

FYI, I certainly was not dissing Music or taking either side. I haven't seen Bill's Original Thread. I was just making an "off the top of the head" statement about the book I read decades ago.

I enjoy Music's posts. I enjoy everyones perspectives as long as they do not disrespect or step on another persons free will...

[Orion197]

While I highly respect Bill Ryan and the wonderful, positive contributions he has made, I as well do not resonate with Dianetics, Scientology and the rest. I just do not like any methodology that involved psychology -- I want to go way deeper than that down the rabbit hole to the core of it all which I would suggest is pure consciousness. My disclaimer is that I have never "looked into it" much further than a quick glance out of interest. I'm sure he might not resonate with some material that I resonate with but we are still expressions of the same consciousness having experiences that we, I would suggest, have chosen "ahead of time". We are here to do some good in the best and most effective way we can.
Now, since I do not resonate with the material, it doesn't mean it's wrong --- it just doesn't resonate with me in the state I am in right now in this period of "time".
However, out of all the sources of information out there, I will state that the top 2 on my short list are David Icke and Bill Ryan. I have the most trust in them and resonate with their efforts to do some good in this world.
So, I may have to take a closer look at this material to quench my appetite for information........

[music]

Thanks for your replies, I don't have time to address them all now because I need to go to work, but Dorjezigzag, auditing seems to me to be no more than the Freudian "talking cure", and the concepts of "engram", "chain", "lock", "secondary", and the way of dealing with these issues is pretty much in line with the Freudian method of psycho-analysis, except where the Freudian has a couch and their notepad as props between them and the patient, the auditor has their table and e-meter.

Where you may equate Scientology generally as being more in line with Jung (who I find insightful, but also flawed in respects), the only difference I see between Freudianism and Scientology really is the cosmology, and once we go down that road, I get serious alarm bells ringing. But out of respect for those who "believe", let's not go there hey?

Jung was right about the unresolved shadow aspect within us, and he blamed the rise of Nazi Germany on the mobilisation of the shadow. What this means is that it is very easy for those with higher spirit to quickly revert to base thought and act in an instant, but those who operate from a less evolved perspective find it hard to make that instant leap upwards. This may also be called the movement to the lowest common denominator.

Dianetics is pretty much "catharsis therapy", an adjunct of the talking cure. A common comment by people who left Scientology is the auditing process, while alluring at first, becomes more like being a hamster on a wheel, than an operating Thetan. Many people say they have never even met a true operating Thetan, and gave up hope of acquiring this legendary status after many years on the wheel. So, it is considered by many who have used it to be a never ending story, a quest for the Grail if you will. But as I have said here before, the Grail is the human heart, not a product of the human mind.

[donk]

What this means is that it is very easy for those with higher spirit to quickly revert to base thought and act in an instant, but those who operate from a less evolved perspective find it hard to make that instant leap upwards. This may also be called the movement to the lowest common denominator.

Heh...I was toying with this idea today: just a few bad apples spoil the bunch...but a few good ones?? Doesn't seem to work the other way around!

[music]

Donk, that is why true spiritual growth and awareness is so crucial. Work needs to be at a higher energetic level than the labyrinth of the human mind if we wish to effect change upward. The phenomena above, to me, is yet another symptom of energetic imbalance.

[Knowrainknowrainbows!]

Posted by donk (here)

What this means is that it is very easy for those with higher spirit to quickly revert to base thought and act in an instant, but those who operate from a less evolved perspective find it hard to make that instant leap upwards. This may also be called the movement to the lowest common denominator.

Heh...I was toying with this idea today: just a few bad apples spoil the bunch...but a few good ones?? Doesn't seem to work the other way around!

Maybe can't compare fruit or vegetables ...

But humankind's leadership is a different story.
Leadership of many by a few "good" individuals can influence and change the course of events (just as a poor/"bad" leadership does).

What the heart possess the life expresses;
KRKR
;-)

[GloriousPoetry]

Music I totally agree......energetically what runs our broken society is the thrust of the masculine polarity and a disconnection with the power of the feminine polarity. Perhaps someday as a human race we will be able to integrate ourselves in our world from a higher understanding......

All of the affinities in this world that hold beauty together in all of its divine levels are sensitive forms that are drawn from the imaginative body of love that remembers what informs heaven's hand to render all of the creative power that unveils itself inside this magical chamber......

[Sunny-side-up]

Hi music Love and Hugs to you.
You said:

Posted by music (here)
sees as inferior human processes.

Bill, in your Q & A thread, you were asked how are we to believe that Dianetics is a valid tool for awareness when we look at the behaviour of L Ron Hubbard, who developed it? Your answer was along the lines of “many great men are flawed”. Interesting in light of my comments above is the fact that I have never once heard the poor behaviour of a woman excused with “many a great woman is flawed”, but I have heard the “flawed great man” excuse more times than I wish to recall. Is this excuse itself not a symptom of the over-dominance and control of masculine energy in our society? For me, awareness is about balance – the masculine and the feminine.

Your right about the quote, but I felt a tad sorry for Bill, the dear soul.
The term “many a great man is flawed” is an old one and today is not political or justly correct. Well raised point Music
New term “many a great being is flawed” even Bill at times, if only in a very, very small way

Hugs to you both

[Sirius White]

Dianetics, and Mrs's Relfes method of deprogramming is actually pretty useful and effective. Not all concepts in Scientology are bogus they do have SOME truths. Unfortunately distorted and used for dark purposes.

There are far more effective methods and ways of uncovering potential of mind though. I heard that Hubbard stole the idea from others at the time who were in contact with beings from elsewhere. Plus there is the connection with JPL, Jack parsons, and Crowley (and the foolish rituals Parsons and Hubbard were trying to accomplish).

[Carmody]

Posted by Sirius White (here)
Dianetics, and Mrs's Relfes method of deprogramming is actually pretty useful and effective. Not all concepts in Scientology are bogus they do have SOME truths. Unfortunately distorted and used for dark purposes.

There are far more effective methods and ways of uncovering potential of mind though. I heard that Hubbard stole the idea from others at the time who were in contact with beings from elsewhere. Plus there is the connection with JPL, Jack parsons, and Crowley (and the foolish rituals Parsons and Hubbard were trying to accomplish).

I tend to leave my judgement at the door. What we have are stories. We weren't there. That's all. (I'm neither defending, nor detracting)

[CdnSirian]

It's true that if we weren't there, it's only a story. I grew up addicted to stories, because even though I went to lots of "theres", I couldn't tell yet if my own story was interesting. And I really just wanted to stay put sometimes.

Here we are now in 2013 - and man the stories are way too interesting most days!!

I agree it's exasperating to hear once again "the man had flaws". And that system is patriarchal. Imbalance? So you pull back farther. Wider view. The planet, the feminine energies.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=-SgC42_qdjs

Leonard Cohen on LRH

Now we're at a different water mark. We weave our tapestry man/woman/white/gold/darker/Avalon (and a sax for Raf).

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=_ovwk77JRww

Sorry I have a hard time expressing myself and rely on other poets a lot.

[jiminii]

Posted by we-R-one (here)
Hi Music,

I really appreciate your point of view and can in many ways relate to what you're saying. Just to be clear to the readers, I'm not picking one side over the other and I realize that's not what Music is implying either. I'm grateful for both perspectives as it aides in my growth and understanding. I can probably better address your point of view Music, more so than Dianetics as I've had no exposure to it's principles until now. Even then, my scope is limited because it takes time to absorb the methods and ideology behind it's makings.

Becoming heart-centered is key, I believe to our survival and ability to co-exist with one another and as one. I became aware of this only a year ago, when all the pieces to the puzzle of this particular aspect, started to come together for me, which was the inspiration for "The Solutions" thread. As mentioned before by David Icke, the Gnostic teachings even enforce this notion of humans being heart-centered in past writings, so this aligned with the thought process I had when I experienced the kundalini. The thought process was in the heart not the mind. To gain this understanding I had to go through 24 years of pain and abuse before I came to this conclusion. This was a spiritual awakening that wasn't realized until 21 years later! Had I done Dianetics would I have cleared this engram before and never coming to this understanding?

My journey to get to the point of where I am today was all organic. The star seed attributes started when I was about 5, though it's possible they could have been sooner, I just don't remember. I never studied under any one or anything and I have no formal training, I am self taught....at least in this lifetime. So when I look at the Dianetics aspect, and if I'm understanding correctly from what little I know, it's the quicker version for someone to obtain star seed attributes by clearing engrams so they can have more of the god-like abilities? So you cannot obtain these powers until you clear engrams, do I have that right? My concern would be that this isn't an organic approach and things could be missed that are of great value that one could only learn had they experienced the pain generated from the moment of the lesson rather than washing it away via an engram cleansing or whatever you want to call it. It was because of the "issues" put before me that I was able to understand and grow and become more heart-centered. You cannot avoid the pain! How can you be of service to others if have no understanding of the pain caused and felt by those experiencing the process of soul evolution? Frick I have so many questions that I haven't had a chance to ask Jiminii yet because I'm still trying to catch up on all the threads.

I'm probably the perfect person to look at dianetics because of my background of not being influenced by anyone's methodology and yet still being able to have obtained the so called "god-like" abilities without any teachings. I don't know why I can do these things...., an older soul from the future maybe?.... but I do feel that all have the ability at some point through the process of a natural evolution growth to obtain the same skill sets. If the point of Dianetics is to speed up the process, I do worry that the powers obtained can be abused by those who have yet to become heart-centered. It's kinda like the cart before the horse maybe? This is what I'm referring to when I say it's imperative that we get our spiritual houses in order first through being heart-centered. To obtain powers before hand could very well be catastrophic.

I'm having difficulty finding the words to express my thoughts and my response is probably premature since I've haven't read the book on Dianetics, but I felt the need to respond. I wish I had more time to explore this in depth and rapidly, in order to keep up with the flow of conversation of those who have already read. I'll do my best to take a look so I have a more well rounded viewpoint. I can understand your concerns Music and they should be taken into consideration by others in order to bring balance to the teachings of the likes of Dianetics or any other methodology that bypasses the organic state of being within the heart.

getting out of the body alone ... would make you clear ... but it would be a key'd out clear ..a key's out clear can be key'd in again because he hasn't erased the pictures .. all Buddhist are key'd out clears . I am not looking for key'd out clears .. I am looking for natural clears .. they do not have a recording system .. so they don't have to clear recordings that could have someones' words in the recording giving the person hypnotic commands so they have weird reactions to life situations

I am looking for star seeds ... I only use this scientology to get the definitions I needed to explain the creation of this universe and how these spirits created viewpoints that most people think are some kind of spirit around the head. then there is the other entity the GE that is a created thought form that grows and manages bodies ... I will give you a simple explanation

imagine you learned how to create a sun to get light and then an earth .. and then you want to create something that moves around and has intelligence.
so you start making one cell animals .. and of course all your friends are up there creating all their little creations .. then you realized it needed some kind of thought form similar to yourself ... so you make this ghost and try to copy what information you have into it so you can have something that is more life like to communicate .
you get really good at this until you have animals with emotions and every other thing that is here .. and you've made them VERY REAL and VERY life like ... BUT

you know it is still basically a robot ... so then you attach yourself to one of these and try to manage if from the outside ... and you can manage this creation of a human or dog or anything you would like to manage ... then you want to go one more step and decide to figure out a way to change your viewpoints where you can be looking with the eyes you created in this human and its ears and all the sensations a body can feel ..

but during all this creation spirit beings found they can hurt other spirit beings unintentionally .. so they can get moody and decide to do a revenge to let the other person know what it feels like and then you get in wars and then you learn how to trap spirits in these bodies .and eventually you arrive here ...

now ... you still have battles and you learn how to trap the most powerful and you really have to do it if you want to win the battle ... so you can't kill a spirit being .. but you can trap him ... so he is not stopping you from wining the battle ... it doesn't matter what reason . you are here ...

so this LRH comes home from the war and finds his son is all messed up and does these technology he may have learned in asia dianetics because his wife got pregnant from a psychiatrist and tried many times to abort the child ... so he is trying to remove these engrams so his son can have a better life ...

this could be one of the reason's he created scientology ... but he was learning how to repair a meat body ... that is what dianetics is ... it is not designed to repair the mind though in the engrams they found the words said could act like hypnotic commands ... so then it goes into past lives .. he finds that he must run this to past lives or they won't erase .. so that is when he has to change it to scientology

I am just looking for star seeds .. and show them the basic tools of thought that I learned to make my miracles ... so maybe they can help fix this planet faster

I never did dianetics .. I am natural clear ... means no recording system .. so there are no engrams to erase in me.
I believe the star seeds are natural clears too .. so they will not need to do dianetics either.
in fact if you are Natural clear you can not do dianetiics at all ..you have to get up to OT 5 which allows and OT to repair his body.
and it is amazing stuff ... a guy goes in weighing 250 pounds and comes out 20 minutes later weighing 170 pounds
and then one goes in there weighing 250 pounds and comes out weighing 250 pounds and someone asked him, "hey why didn't your weight go away ??? "
and he answers and says "I like being fat"

and that is OT V

now I did all my miracles and never got any processing from Scientology ,,,, none .. I did it by reading the books and practicing how to make my thoughts work

now inelia has done things that Bill hasn't even put on the interview because it was too far out to believe
well I have the same as hers ... I have so many impossible things happen on the spur of the moment who is going to believe them

I would hitch hike a ride to san francisco and stop at a bar somewhere along the way ... and ask some girls where I can sleep.
they take me to a place where they are building houses ... and I sleep there.
in the morning I wake up in the corner and sit up like a buddhist and get some idea of running some kind of flow down to my neck

these 2 girls come in and looked shocked ... I said, "what's wrong?"
both of them said they can't see my head ... there is only some silver in the middle.
i said, "oh I know what that is .." and I pulled it down to my waist and then they couldn't see me from waist up.

these are impossible for others to believe .. but they happen again and again and again ...

I never once asked anyone to do dianetics .. it is totally up to you and it is not even my ententiion
and I never asked anyone to do scientology here too ...

I am looking for those few millions that I know are here .. and I will try to get them to realize what they are and what they can do ...

it they can't it is ok ... but some will be able to do it ... I am only giving my own experiences that I learned testing out the data I read

jim

[we-R-one]

Posted by jiminii (here)
getting out of the body alone ... would make you clear ... but it would be a key'd out clear ..a key's out clear can be key'd in again because he hasn't erased the pictures .. all Buddhist are key'd out clears . I am not looking for key'd out clears .. I am looking for natural clears .. they do not have a recording system .. so they don't have to clear recordings that could have someones' words in the recording giving the person hypnotic commands so they have weird reactions to life situations

I am looking for star seeds ... I only use this scientology to get the definitions I needed to explain the creation of this universe and how these spirits created viewpoints that most people think are some kind of spirit around the head. then there is the other entity the GE that is a created thought form that grows and manages bodies ... I will give you a simple explanation

jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for such a detailed response. I'm still trying to catch up on your posts to get a better understanding of all that you share. I've tried to hold back from asking questions as I realize maybe they'll already be answered if I just continue reading further. So let me ask you this....though I do fit most of the characterizations of a star seed, I have experienced past lives and have memories from such as far back as the stone age. Most come in forms of emotions though some have been in pictures such as the life as a stone age female warrior. If I'm understanding the term correctly, I do "feel" clear. It does not appear that I have any karma left to contend with. As I watch others spin around in karma disarray, nothing seems to touch me in the way I see what others must contend with on a daily basis. The last issue I appeared to have was taken care of in 1990 when I experienced a kundalini. I equate this to emotional clearing which I believe is the same as when you refer to someone having cleared themselves. So it's possible that one can get to this point of clearing via different methods whether organic or through dianetics. The metaphysical abilities that I possess, started at a young age before you could say I was completely cleared, so how does that fit in to what you know? So if I understand what you're saying, you seem to be of the belief that you cannot obtain these "god-like" abilities until you are clear. And what I'm saying is I could perform some of these abilities before I was cleared if I'm actually clear in the first place like I think I am. Most of these abilities utilized the power of intention with the exception of shaking someone's hand and being able to read their thoughts. All seem to deal with the manipulation of energy which is something I understood at a very young age...it was never questioned, I just did things as if they were natural and then went about my business as if nothing happened. I have more questions, but maybe this isn't the right thread and I don't want to take away from Music's posts or topic.

[mischief]

"...... A common comment by people who left Scientology is the auditing process, while alluring at first, becomes more like being a hamster on a wheel, than an operating Thetan. Many people say they have never even met a true operating Thetan, and gave up hope of acquiring this legendary status after many years on the wheel. So, it is considered by many who have used it to be a never ending story, a quest for the Grail if you will. But as I have said here before, the Grail is the human heart, not a product of the human mind.[/QUOTE]"

Hi Music,
I am one of the people you are talking about in this part of your post.
I was a staff member for 17 years and have been out for almost 18 years mainly because I too did not see the vast improvements I was expecting to see.
Very bewildering and disappointing.

This was in an 'official church' not the Rons' org, that Bill has told you about, so I cant makes statements as to what is achieveable in one of the 'Rons' Orgs'.
Apparently there is a big difference in how they are run and the results that are produced- I only know the so called official version, which I found to be very traumatising rather than empowering.

I have only just started looking at WHY this was so in my dealing with my PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder), that was caused by this. I have only just recently allowed myself to recognise there is a situation that needs addressing with this.

One of the things I found which may be pertinent to your above post is, Hubbard told people NOT to demonstrate whatever abilities they regained ...for whatever reason.
I feel that the end result of this is those abilities never got to 'settle in'. It takes time to re learn something just as it takes time to learn something new.
An old saying- 'You lose what you dont use'.

There are many stories of those who were in Scn in the very early days of people who did exhibit 'OT' abilities.
Sometimes, even I can do some things that I feel are quite fantastic even though I never did get to do the 'OT' levels.
Not to try to encourage you to go where you would rather not, each persons journey is unique and each path is ones own, I wish you well in yours.

[jiminii]

Posted by we-R-one (here)

Posted by jiminii (here)
getting out of the body alone ... would make you clear ... but it would be a key'd out clear ..a key's out clear can be key'd in again because he hasn't erased the pictures .. all Buddhist are key'd out clears . I am not looking for key'd out clears .. I am looking for natural clears .. they do not have a recording system .. so they don't have to clear recordings that could have someones' words in the recording giving the person hypnotic commands so they have weird reactions to life situations

I am looking for star seeds ... I only use this scientology to get the definitions I needed to explain the creation of this universe and how these spirits created viewpoints that most people think are some kind of spirit around the head. then there is the other entity the GE that is a created thought form that grows and manages bodies ... I will give you a simple explanation

jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for such a detailed response. I'm still trying to catch up on your posts to get a better understanding of all that you share. I've tried to hold back from asking questions as I realize maybe they'll already be answered if I just continue reading further. So let me ask you this....though I do fit most of the characterizations of a star seed, I have experienced past lives and have memories from such as far back as the stone age. Most come in forms of emotions though some have been in pictures such as the life as a stone age female warrior. If I'm understanding the term correctly, I do "feel" clear. It does not appear that I have any karma left to contend with. As I watch others spin around in karma disarray, nothing seems to touch me in the way I see what others must contend with on a daily basis. The last issue I appeared to have was taken care of in 1990 when I experienced a kundalini. I equate this to emotional clearing which I believe is the same as when you refer to someone having cleared themselves. So it's possible that one can get to this point of clearing via different methods whether organic or through dianetics. The metaphysical abilities that I possess, started at a young age before you could say I was completely cleared, so how does that fit in to what you know? So if I understand what you're saying, you seem to be of the belief that you cannot obtain these "god-like" abilities until you are clear. And what I'm saying is I could perform some of these abilities before I was cleared if I'm actually clear in the first place like I think I am. Most of these abilities utilized the power of intention with the exception of shaking someone's hand and being able to read their thoughts. All seem to deal with the manipulation of energy which is something I understood at a very young age...it was never questioned, I just did things as if they were natural and then went about my business as if nothing happened. I have more questions, but maybe this isn't the right thread and I don't want to take away from Music's posts or topic.

she is right you don't have to do dianetics
and I don't recommend it ...
old dianetics took a long time to do running over and over and over the engram to erase it

new dianetics takes you to the thought itself ...you run the incidents to the first time it happened and then ask "what was the thought that started it"
the thought might be something like "if I get too close I may fall over this clift"
and doing it this way clears it instantly and the person gets a cognition like "now I know why I get all these feelings when I am close to clifts"

the needle floats showing it is erased
but it does prove one thing ... everything that happens to you or with you .. come from your own thoughts or in agreement with someone else's thoughts

and everything in this universe is created from thoughts

I think I have to create a new thread and look for all the posts I did and put them on this post called

"the impossible experiences for anyone to believe by jiminii"

as for clear ,.. somewhere there is a scientology glossary ... read the definition of clear
see if it is you?

jim

I am going to copy this over to the LRH thread and answer the rest of your questions