Bill, Why Dianetics is Not For Me

[jiminii]

Posted by we-R-one (here)

Posted by jiminii (here)
getting out of the body alone ... would make you clear ... but it would be a key'd out clear ..a key's out clear can be key'd in again because he hasn't erased the pictures .. all Buddhist are key'd out clears . I am not looking for key'd out clears .. I am looking for natural clears .. they do not have a recording system .. so they don't have to clear recordings that could have someones' words in the recording giving the person hypnotic commands so they have weird reactions to life situations

I am looking for star seeds ... I only use this scientology to get the definitions I needed to explain the creation of this universe and how these spirits created viewpoints that most people think are some kind of spirit around the head. then there is the other entity the GE that is a created thought form that grows and manages bodies ... I will give you a simple explanation

jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for such a detailed response. I'm still trying to catch up on your posts to get a better understanding of all that you share. I've tried to hold back from asking questions as I realize maybe they'll already be answered if I just continue reading further. So let me ask you this....though I do fit most of the characterizations of a star seed, I have experienced past lives and have memories from such as far back as the stone age. Most come in forms of emotions though some have been in pictures such as the life as a stone age female warrior. If I'm understanding the term correctly, I do "feel" clear. It does not appear that I have any karma left to contend with. As I watch others spin around in karma disarray, nothing seems to touch me in the way I see what others must contend with on a daily basis. The last issue I appeared to have was taken care of in 1990 when I experienced a kundalini. I equate this to emotional clearing which I believe is the same as when you refer to someone having cleared themselves. So it's possible that one can get to this point of clearing via different methods whether organic or through dianetics. The metaphysical abilities that I possess, started at a young age before you could say I was completely cleared, so how does that fit in to what you know? So if I understand what you're saying, you seem to be of the belief that you cannot obtain these "god-like" abilities until you are clear. And what I'm saying is I could perform some of these abilities before I was cleared if I'm actually clear in the first place like I think I am. Most of these abilities utilized the power of intention with the exception of shaking someone's hand and being able to read their thoughts. All seem to deal with the manipulation of energy which is something I understood at a very young age...it was never questioned, I just did things as if they were natural and then went about my business as if nothing happened. I have more questions, but maybe this isn't the right thread and I don't want to take away from Music's posts or topic.

look in the last LRH post I made
jim

[music]

we-R-one, many, many people have "god-like" abilities, hardly surprising since we are all "God". And yes, pain is a good teacher, especially once we have moved beyond it. The journey is as important as the destination. Sure, as GoodeTXSG says, the techniques are a tool that can be used, and then the person moves on to the next piece of the puzzle. Used within an organisational framework though, we need to be aware that the Freudian "talking cure" and "catharsis therapy" are administered by people who belong to a professional body, are constrained by ethics and codes of conduct/practice, and are insured. All these and other things society has put in place to safeguard the vulnerable patient who is wide open to abuse and manipulation, yet dianetics being so similar to this approach has no such safeguards. While I am not accusing all auditors of being predatory or manipulative, the odds are there will be some, and there is little within the Scientology framework to ensure protection from the bad egg, or the rotten apple. Some will say, but auditors are "clear", they are perfect, but please, don't bother. We all see examples of people who through some practice or another should be "clear" that practice abuse, and dianetics has nothing that I can see that elevates it to some exalted place in the therapeutic or spiritual hierarchy, and no magic wand to confer protection from abuse.

[we-R-one]

Hi Music,
Thanks for your response. FWIW, I used the phrase "god-like abilities" as that's what Jiminii called them; I was paraphrasing so he would know what I was referring to as would the reader who had read several of his past posts. So in using the term it wasn't meant that those who have "god-like abilities" are better than others or that there are only a select few.

I do share your concerns, having been able to clear myself naturally; those who don't understand might find themselves in a quandry should they come across the wrong auditor. I still can't get past the fact that using the process of dianetics is cheating yourself out of an amazing experience/realization....I see the value, BUT, something instinctual says all may not be right by following this procedure. Maybe in time as I learn more I could change my mind...it's possible dianetics could be better for someone who is further along in their soul growth to finish the job? I dunno.....I feel all the more wiser for doing it on my own and had I had dianetics available to me at the time, surely I would have robbed myself of an extraordinary experience, even though it was quite painful.

Something else that crossed my mind....20+ years later when I began to understand that I had experienced a kundalini, I felt in addition to the emotional clearing, that it was quite possible that within this moment I had created a template. Supposedly star seeds come to earth to create templates for various reasons...don't know if it's true or not,, just sayin.......so had I used dianetics, the opportunity to create the template would have been destroyed from what I can tell, if that's what some are here to do.

EDIT TO ADD:
What the h$ll.... I guess none of this should really matter as it's just an illusion anyways, right? lol

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by music (here)
there is little within the Scientology framework to ensure protection from the bad egg, or the rotten apple.

Music, here are some direct questions for you:

1) Re the above quote from your post above, are you talking about

• The Church of Scientology?
• The Free Zone?
• Ron's Org?

2) On what do you base your knowledge and expertise?

3) Do you really know what 'Clear' means? (I explained in some detail on another thread. Please feed it back to me to check your understanding.)

4) On what is your assumption based that there are no codes of conduct? (There are, btw, in certain organizations, and they are clearly stated and defined. Ron's Org has on one or two occasions expelled people who have failed to meet technical or ethical standards. That's why the Ron's Org Committee was formed.)

5) Do you know how much you know, and how much you don't know? (Please answer this question. You're grandstanding and holding forth as if you know a very great deal. I do not think that you do.)

[PurpleLama]

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://e...rfYW2mW1iftPHg

[Rich]

Not quite sure what Jiminiis message to us is.

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
5) Do you know how much you know, and how much you don't know? (Please answer this question.

very interesting question...
but how can someone answer that. =)))

[Finefeather]

Here is an interesting video...straight from the mouths of ex 'Scientologist High Ups'...all well advanced and with 20 and even 30 years experience.
So my first thought was that they would know a lot more about it that you would, Bill, because you have said that you did not join Scientology ever? So if this is so...that you are not an insider then they would be the ones to listen to and not you? with all due respects that is..

The aim here being to highlight the 'tech' which I assume...because I really do not know...is the same or at least similar to Ron's Org and the Free zoners.
The impression I get is that Ron's Org broke away from the Genuine Scientology Church because of infiltration from dark forces...but does that not mean that the 'tech' is still the same? and if so then this video has some interesting things to consider IMO...
Take care
Ray

edit: You might want to pay careful attention to what they say...some interesting little comments which mean more than you might think.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=3C5j63DsmnQ

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Finefeather (here)
So my first thought was that they would know a lot more about it that you would, Bill, because you have said that you did not join Scientology ever?

Yes, they will certainly know a lot more about the day-to-day workings of the Church of Scientology than myself. Much of that is about management and politics (with a small 'p'), and tons of dramatic history that I have never been very interested in. (Think of a very nasty global corporation, like Monsanto. There's a difference between the executives and the scientists.)

But I very much doubt they know more about the 'technology' (and its many and extensive non-Church advances) than I do.

They also may or may not know the bigger picture about how the Church was taken over, and why. (Probably not, in my estimation.)

Don't misunderstand (or under-estimate) the ability and capability of the folks in Ron's Org. There are highly trained, highly professional people who have devoted their lives to the subject and work 18 hours a day, 6 days a week, with a two week vacation once a year (really). Just because they work from home -- rather than from a glitzy multi-million dollar building -- doesn't mean that they're not more able, productive and knowledgable in very many ways than anyone else in any ways connected with the subject.

[Sunny-side-up]

Hello Bill or a Mod, Love and Light.

Was going to read the very first post of yours here Bill with all links and info but it's gone

I might have saved them already but was wondering where they wen't ?

Hugs all!

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Sunny-side-up (here)
Hello Bill or a Mod, Love and Light.

Was going to read the very first post of yours here Bill with all links and info but it's gone

I might have saved them already but was wondering where they wen't ?

Hugs all!

Wrong thread!

This (I think) is what you may be looking for:

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...572#post679572

[Hervé]

Posted by Finefeather (here)
[...]

The aim here being to highlight the 'tech' which I assume...because I really do not know...is the same or at least similar to Ron's Org and the Free zoners.

[...]

One thing that needs to be understood about the "official" (not genuine anymore) "church" of Scientology is that, once taken over, it started applying "Black Dianetics" and "Reverse Scientology."

Accordingly, like any tools, Dianetics and Scientology "Tech" can be used either way, constructive or destructive. The "church" started to use their tech tools in a destructive way, basically, so that no actual OTs -- who could improve things around -- are actually produced anymore..

[Finefeather]

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)

Posted by Finefeather (here)
[...]

The aim here being to highlight the 'tech' which I assume...because I really do not know...is the same or at least similar to Ron's Org and the Free zoners.

[...]

One thing that needs to be understood about the "official" (not genuine anymore) "church" of Scientology is that, once taken over, it started applying "Black Dianetics" and "Reverse Scientology."

Accordingly, like any tools, Dianetics and Scientology "Tech" can be used either way, constructive or destructive. The "church" started to use their tech tools in a destructive way, basically, so that no actual OTs -- who could improve things around -- are actually produced anymore..

Hi Amzer
I think you just love to play with words and you also think that a lot of people are stupid and cannot think for themselves.
I have neither the time nor inclination to sit down and point out some blatant errors...never mind personal delusions which some people have displayed...in the defense of Scientology.
With all due respects...because I believe each must find his/her own way...it makes very little difference what you or I or anyone says about any subject...if the audience does not get it...it does not necessarily mean they are lacking in cognitive skills...it might means the 'teacher' has failed to convince them...and that could be for a number of reasons...only one of them being...that it fails the logic test.

Take care
Ray

[Hervé]

Posted by Finefeather (here)
[...]
I have neither the time nor inclination to sit down and point out some blatant errors...

[...]
Ray

Then, why bother mentioning it and leaving it as an innuendo?

[greybeard]

While this may be off topic I would like to point out tactfully that all religions or spiritual organisations are divisive.
You dont need one to grow, evolve, spiritually.
I do accept that in the early stages it may well be beneficial to be part of something to give direction.
However the Buddha’s advice to put no head above your own applies not only to an individual guru/teacher but organisations also.
If its enlightenment that is sought---all belief systems and concepts are to be released, anything that is an obstacle to enlightenment must go.
No complicated technique is required.
Of course each to their own.

Chris

[bruno dante]

Posted by music (here)
we-R-one, many, many people have "god-like" abilities, hardly surprising since we are all "God". And yes, pain is a good teacher, especially once we have moved beyond it. The journey is as important as the destination. Sure, as GoodeTXSG says, the techniques are a tool that can be used, and then the person moves on to the next piece of the puzzle. Used within an organisational framework though, we need to be aware that the Freudian "talking cure" and "catharsis therapy" are administered by people who belong to a professional body, are constrained by ethics and codes of conduct/practice, and are insured. All these and other things society has put in place to safeguard the vulnerable patient who is wide open to abuse and manipulation, yet dianetics being so similar to this approach has no such safeguards. While I am not accusing all auditors of being predatory or manipulative, the odds are there will be some, and there is little within the Scientology framework to ensure protection from the bad egg, or the rotten apple. Some will say, but auditors are "clear", they are perfect, but please, don't bother. We all see examples of people who through some practice or another should be "clear" that practice abuse, and dianetics has nothing that I can see that elevates it to some exalted place in the therapeutic or spiritual hierarchy, and no magic wand to confer protection from abuse.

Hi Music,

First off, I love your avatar! Burlesque spirituality! How wonderful!

I might argue that that those mainstream professionals you speak of are also constrained creatively In my experience, anyway, professional organizations and bureaucracies, their rules and regulations and so forth, are designed to subtly discourage any real advancement. I've found that red tape often masquerades as "safety" or "protection" for the patient or whomever, when it is really designed into the system as a restrictor ie: " you're getting way too close to the truth! wait! let me protect you!" A metaphor may be how the wonderful and concerned men and women in the FDA valiantly protect us U.S. citizens against those ghastly and harmful nutritional supplements

I *do* respect your concern for the safety and the well-being of patients, don't get me wrong. I don't find you to be holding forth or grandstanding (a little excessive Bill. words better suited for Jiminii, I think I think you're maybe seeing a passive-aggressive swipe here where there isn't one. my opinion, anyway) I think it's healthy for the forum to have a devil's advocate position, just so long as it doesn't deliberately attempt to derail it's opposing position. And this being a separate thread and all, I see none of that.

I would like to know, through Bill or Music or whomever: what *are* the precautions taken by RonsOrg or Freezone to ensure patient/auditor ethics? I'm admittedly very ignorant about the whole thing. And open-minded, I should point out, as I see a wealth of value in many of LRH's stuff. But this is something that hasn't been addressed in all of the related threads, and I find it to be a valid concern.

[jiminii]

Posted by mischief (here)
"...... A common comment by people who left Scientology is the auditing process, while alluring at first, becomes more like being a hamster on a wheel, than an operating Thetan. Many people say they have never even met a true operating Thetan, and gave up hope of acquiring this legendary status after many years on the wheel. So, it is considered by many who have used it to be a never ending story, a quest for the Grail if you will. But as I have said here before, the Grail is the human heart, not a product of the human mind.

"

Hi Music,
I am one of the people you are talking about in this part of your post.
I was a staff member for 17 years and have been out for almost 18 years mainly because I too did not see the vast improvements I was expecting to see.
Very bewildering and disappointing.

This was in an 'official church' not the Rons' org, that Bill has told you about, so I cant makes statements as to what is achieveable in one of the 'Rons' Orgs'.
Apparently there is a big difference in how they are run and the results that are produced- I only know the so called official version, which I found to be very traumatising rather than empowering.

I have only just started looking at WHY this was so in my dealing with my PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder), that was caused by this. I have only just recently allowed myself to recognise there is a situation that needs addressing with this.

One of the things I found which may be pertinent to your above post is, Hubbard told people NOT to demonstrate whatever abilities they regained ...for whatever reason.
I feel that the end result of this is those abilities never got to 'settle in'. It takes time to re learn something just as it takes time to learn something new.
An old saying- 'You lose what you dont use'.

There are many stories of those who were in Scn in the very early days of people who did exhibit 'OT' abilities.
Sometimes, even I can do some things that I feel are quite fantastic even though I never did get to do the 'OT' levels.
Not to try to encourage you to go where you would rather not, each persons journey is unique and each path is ones own, I wish you well in yours.[/QUOTE]


jim starts here


this is what I saw too .... many people working getting nowhere ... for years
then go to one auditor from freezone a class 12 auditor off loaded from the Flag land base and in such a short time he opens me up ... and I really start flying in a new direction from that time on ... I've had others on this site PM me and in the middle of the conversation I am getting cognitions ... blowing out of me with huge yawns ....
that old Church of Scientology COS was setup by LRH before he died to prevent anyone from the cabal getting any of the abilities ...

I am just lucky I found cathy and found out about base 2

jim

[Hervé]

Posted by mischief (here)
[...]

One of the things I found which may be pertinent to your above post is, Hubbard told people NOT to demonstrate whatever abilities they regained ...for whatever reason.

[...]

This is most probably the reason:

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
[...]

Of interest: I know, quite well, the one person in the original 1970s SRI RV research team who was more able than Ingo Swann. This person is still alive, and was a close friend of Ingo till he left us a few months ago.

Back in the project, this person irritated Ingo greatly after they and Ingo has been singled out to take part in a kind of psychic tug-of-war -- which took place not at the SRI, but at Livermore Labs. The 'contest' was to see which one of the two could bend a laser beam one way, or the other. (Ingo to the left, my friend to the right.)

My friend won, and Ingo was pissed. My friend then realized that he had better start playing really dumb -- or he'd end up working for the government. He carefully flunked every subsequent test, and eventually dropped out of the program. There's smart for you.



[...]

[music]

Posted by REILLY (here)
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://e...rfYW2mW1iftPHg

Now that is a textbook example of passive aggressive, as far as my understanding of the term goes, my friend. If you have something to say, as I just did, please say it, and don't hide it behind a link.

Love and blessings to you.

[music]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by music (here)
there is little within the Scientology framework to ensure protection from the bad egg, or the rotten apple.

Music, here are some direct questions for you:

1) Re the above quote from your post above, are you talking about

• The Church of Scientology?
• The Free Zone?
• Ron's Org?

2) On what do you base your knowledge and expertise?

3) Do you really know what 'Clear' means? (I explained in some detail on another thread. Please feed it back to me to check your understanding.)

4) On what is your assumption based that there are no codes of conduct? (There are, btw, in certain organizations, and they are clearly stated and defined. Ron's Org has on one or two occasions expelled people who have failed to meet technical or ethical standards. That's why the Ron's Org Committee was formed.)

5) Do you know how much you know, and how much you don't know? (Please answer this question. You're grandstanding and holding forth as if you know a very great deal. I do not think that you do.)

Hi Bill, sorry for the delay in my reply, I was camped out in the bush for a few days working.

Re "Clear": There are differing meanings of clear, firstly a snapshot of Hubbard’s initial meaning (Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health, in 1950):

A clear, for instance, has complete recall of everything which has ever happened to him or anything he has ever studied. He does mental computations, such as those of chess, for example, which a normal would do in a half an hour, in ten or fifteen seconds. He does not think “vocally” but spontaneously. There are no demon circuits in his mind except those which it might amuse him to set up -- and break down again -- to care for various approaches to living. He is entirely self-determined. And his creative imagination is high. He can do a swift study of anything within his intellectual capacity, which is inherent, and the study would be the equivalent to him of a year or two of training when he was “normal.” His vigor, persistence and tenacity to life are very much higher than anyone has thought possible.

My younger brother could do complex mathematical equations in his head without computation – the answers just rose up within his mind within seconds. He failed mathematics at school though, because the computation happened at the sub-conscious level, so he could never show “how” he got the answer right, which made up at least 66% of the marks awarded in the school system he was in. My father could play multiple games of chess in his head against FIDE rated masters, making his moves spontaneously. Neither of these two people had any exposure to dianetics. What Hubbard is explaining here is an innate human ability, but one that is hidden in most (the abilities of "Operating Thetans" are also innate human abilities, and I know/have known people with all of the original claimed OT abilities to a greater or lesser extent). I am not claiming any special abilities for myself.

I believe the following pretty much sums up the current mainstream Scientology definition (http://www.whatisscientology.org/htm...13/pg0245.html)

The state of Clear has often been described in Dianetics and Scientology. It has always been understated. Time has revealed that Clear is far above anything one had dreamed of previously. Here is a being who has forever vanquished his own reactive mind, the source of man’s misery. He has a very high degree of personal integrity and honesty, and is living proof that man is basically good. His own basic beingness returns and his own personality flourishes. When a person becomes Clear, he loses all the fears, anxieties and irrational thoughts that were held down by pain in the reactive mind and, in short, regains himself. Without a reactive mind, an individual is much, much more himself. Until an individual is cleared, no matter how able he has become by virtue of earlier auditing, it is inevitable that he will sooner or later sink back into the reactive mind. That is why clearing is vital. Clear is total eradication of the individual’s own reactive mind. Thus, Clear is a stable state, not subject to relapse.

From these two definitions, I would relate these to the condition of a person being “totally within their power”, at least for the greater part of their day to day life. There are some, in my opinion, who are totally in their power all the time, these people could be called avatars, or ascended masters, or whatever phrase we like, but they generally don’t remain incarnate (in physical reality) once they have truly achieved this state, because they have learned all they need to learn in this lifetime. They may linger to share their “truth”, but once that is done, there is no point for that energy to remain in that body. My definition of clear would include an appreciation of our essential nature, which to me is related to love and its infinite expression. We are clear, in my view, when we act solely from the high heart, because within this space, we cannot be controlled, and we can only do what is conducive to the greater common good (when our will and the will of the universe align...no more distortion, our earthly nature becomes a pure rendering of our essential nature). In this space we are connected to that which is beyond all dimensional space and time, so yes, we have access to all past and future events and knowing, and we can effect or foresee events in physical reality. There is cross over here, obviously, with the concept of Operating Thetan, and we see these concepts exist across multiple traditions, and we see that there is nothing new under the sun. This godlike state of pure being is pretty rare. The caveat here is that this is merely how I see it to be.

Finally, re “clear”: Bill, I am not your child or student, so when you say “Please feed it back to me to check your understanding”, please be aware that this is not the way to engage me. If you should wish to relate the Ron’s org definition of “clear” here of your own free will, however, I would be more than happy to read it.



Re bad eggs: true, this is based mostly on the multiple stories of abuse of power from the early days til now in mainstream Scientology, and the ease with which it seems to have occurred, and the way perpetrators were apparently acting with impunity. Leads to ...


Ron’s org committee: Self-auditing or regulating of an organisation, yes, if this is this done well it would a wonderful thing, if not done well, it would be like the police investigating the police. I have no experience to comment on how this self-auditing process is carried out within Ron’s org, it could be wonderful, and I hope it is, but I add the above police investigating police analogy as a caveat.

Re: Knowing (or not)

Bill, it is one of the paradoxes of existence that we hold two states simultaneously: we don’t know as much as we think we know – we know much more than we think we know.

Or

We are nothing but all knowing – but we all know nothing

When the Zen master asks the aspirant the question “Who are you?”, then returns some time later to receive the answer “I don’t know”, the master praises the aspirant, but then walks away to leave the aspirant contemplating further.

Knowing comes from the journey, Bill. There are many journeys, but my ego will not engage with you to recount my own so you may judge it valid or wanting. Better than judgement is this: know a man/woman by his/her words as they are received by both the head and the heart, and know that our own words will be likewise received – with knowing, but without judgement.

I will, however, recount something small of my journey that doesn’t exalt me, yet gives an idea of where I come from. My mother lived a life of good and humble awareness, much as many anonymous folk do – going about their day to day lives, quietly working in their own way to further the common good in alignment with personal and universal will. In fact, one of my greatest life lessons was to learn not to see her as a "saint" or an "Angel", but to return her humanity to her. To see her human flaws (which we all have) merely accentuated her sublime beauty, and placed that beauty within my own reach. This is a story I have related before here

When I was 12 or so, I was at the train station waiting to get the train to school, and two of my friends said “Let’s go tease the old drunk who sleeps under the bridge". It didn’t sound in the least bit interesting to me, but I tagged along anyway. As they were yelling things to the man, my mother, who had caught the later bus and was heading to cross the bridge to her work, walked by and saw us.

All day at school, I was worried about what would happen when I got home. She would be very disappointed and upset with me. When she arrived home from work, however, she was quiet on the matter. Must be waiting for dinner I thought. Dinner came and went, still with no word. Hmmm, making me sweat no doubt, it’ll come after dinner. Eventually I went to bed, with no word from mum, and I began to think maybe she hadn’t seen me, and there was going to no punishment?

In the morning at breakfast, and as I got dressed for school, mum still said nothing, and I decided I’d been right – luckily, she hadn’t seen me. As I walked out the door to get the bus, however, she called me back. In her hands she held a parcel wrapped in brown paper, and tied with string. “These are some old clothes of your fathers. Do you know the old man that sleeps under the bridge?” I nodded. “Could you please give these to him, it’s starting to get cold and he will need them.” I grabbed the parcel and headed out, but mum called out “and don’t just throw them under the bridge – I want you to hand them to him and tell him what they are.”

So, being a curious sort, as I handed the man the clothes, I asked him why he slept under the bridge (as she knew I would), and received my lesson in compassion (as she knew I would). The man had been a fairly successful sort, had a home and a family, until his wife and children were killed, ironically, by a drunk driver. He turned to drink, lost his job, then his house, and had ended up there, under the bridge.

I made sure nobody teased him again, at least if I was around.

Love and blessings to you, Bill.

[jiminii]

Posted by music (here)

Posted by REILLY (here)
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://e...rfYW2mW1iftPHg

Now that is a textbook example of passive aggressive, as far as my understanding of the term goes, my friend. If you have something to say, as I just did, please say it, and don't hide it behind a link.

Love and blessings to you.

we don't need to be hitting on each other ... it is non productive ... I will tell you what has happened in the few days i am here ... even with all the counter stuff going ... we are learning something ...

I was in communication with someone from free zone ... .. and in the middle of the communication I started to see something .I started yawning these huge yawns again.. and I saw that LRH saw how church of scientology was infiltrated with sleeper children that would wake up and take on the post they needed to take over the Church of Scientology from the inside. LRH set it up to divert and split the church to protect if from the illuminate getting any of the OT levels ..the levels they have now are only repair levels ... up ot 8 .. just cleans their past upsets and disagreements .. not powerful OT levels ... those are being protected by a time portal in the devils triangle and another in the pacific that is the dragons triangle ... they can see what is happening 20 years before it happens ..and stop anything that would hurt the planet ... to go through that time portal you have to be able to move the body with the spirit through to 20 years in the past ... and the reptilians have no ability to do this ... they would kill the body trying ..
the theta level of the planet is past the make break point means it can only go up from here ...

take it a bit more easy on each other ok ???

jim