Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

[Christine]

Posted by lakewatcher
...I was not completely clear in what I meant.ng ambiguous about who and what I was referring to with my reference to the Greek language. I hope you will forgive me. My error was not intentional.

Now, to try to clarify further the point about language that I was trying to make in my own post. If we must literally take a course in Dianetic and Scientology terminology in order for us to intelligently discuss it, then I think that the proper place for that is in a specialized forum. But personally, I don't agree with Hubbard or the proponents of Scientology that Hubbard's specialized language must be mastered in order for someone to be able to understand the essential points and value of the parts of his system, or tool as Bill put it, that actually work. I suspect that the truth within his system can be expressed in more than one way, and certainly simpler than he and his Church did it. As I said, I think that their "Scientologese" actually constituted a form of verbal mental entrainment, or in other words brainwashing, whether they intended it to be such or not.

If it turns out that I am wrong on this point, I will be glad to change my view on it and admit my error.

My intended point was to say that when the general population here in the forum is addressed about a subject, a commonly understood level of speech really should be used.

Hi Lakewatcher,

I have been trying to find time to address your point of view and offer mine. First I love language and very much enjoy having my neural pathways tweaked. I believe we are beings of frequency so the spoken word evokes a great deal of intuitive understanding beyond the literal meanings.

There are two issues here, one is that it has been difficult to understand jiminii's post due to the overuse of Scientology jargon. If you notice he has adjusted as he became aware that this was hampering him getting his message out.

The second is the extension of our linguistic understanding. From Sanskrit to present language (sound) has contained more than the literal meaning of any word. I am sure that Hubbard chose the words to describe our condition purposely. Not only the Greek meaning but the resonance they induce.

All language does "constitutes a verbal form of entrainment", as you put it. We can't get out of that meme, whether we are speaking Greek, English or Swahili. So when someone like Hubbard has the desired goal of breaking people free from their conformity and complacency a new word to describe something like Spirit must be put into use. People have a preconceived notion of what Spirit means. But a word like Thetan requires that we stretch and investigate anew.

I grant that the Church of Scientology has turned these new descriptive words into a elitist sect and their usage has turned them into what you describe.

I firmly believe though that the members of Avalon have a lot of experience, discernment and intelligence in dealing with a different conceptual presentation such as in this thread, which is doing an admirable job.

A personal anecdote, I had a day long conversation with a good friend as we wrestled with differing points of view about the universe, our origins and the existential meaning of life.... you get the picture. We found the limits of our language frustrating as we tried to describe our differing experiences.

What we both agreed upon at the end of the day was this. We are our perceptions, what is perceptually true for one is their truth. We are each unique perceptual realities.

If something comes down your path that opens your perceptions and causes you expand your reality then your universe grows.

Christine

[bram]

Posted by Carmody (here)
Thoughts originate in the body integration/actuation, then proto-vocal, then rise into shape and then rise into word-meanings which come out as spoken word, internally spoken voice in the frontal lobe. The path your development took from birth to childhood, where the internal voice began at about age 5 (for most of us), that is the path of thought creation and expression. Every time we have a thought, that is the way it happens - a repeat of the path of development - every time.

Now recall the times your thoughts where clouded by emotions. Once can probably find that in the now, as in today some time, for most of us. Then one can understand what I speak of. emotions not controlling thought, but being deeply involved in the formation of thought. No emotional body clearing, no extreme intelligence and/or full body/dimensional connection. People can get that dimensional connection without the clearing of the self, but it will be, the vast number of cases...quite skewed and colored.

Hi Carmody,

These two paragraphs jumped off the screen at me. Can I ask a couple of questions?

1. Can you expand the first part...'Thoughts originate in the body integration/actuation, then proto-vocal,' and explain this process in a bit more detail?
2. You say they come from here to be vocalized- i think we are all familiar with hearing things for the first time when we say them- but what if they are not vocalized? Are our thoughts expressed by being silently spoken within, or can they come to understanding without words?
3. Why do you say that the inner voice only kicks in at around 5? I assumed it was with us from the moment we begin to understand words.
4. How exactly are emotions deeply involved in the formation of thoughts?

Great post btw,

love, bram

[Tantauri]

Dear Friends,

I can personally vouch for two more. Both have years of valuable experience and are quite capable. They have withstood multiple personal attacks from the Church. A sure sign that they are effective. Link below with credentials.


TO ACHIEVE ADVANCED SPIRITUAL STATES.

My team and I are available to travel in USA and Europe.

We deliver in English, Spanish and Italian.

Center for Spiritual Research and its applications

.

ITALIANO/ENGLISH: e-mail:


RiSpiritualPath@gmail.com

ESPANOL/ENGLISH: e-mail: dianaclass8@yahoo.com

http://aidathomas.wordpress.com/2011...de-the-church/

.

ITALY: Ri/Maurice Pascal

maurice.pascal007@yahoo.com

.

Ri

.

Class VI (SHSBC), Class IV C/S and OT 7+.

RiSpiritualPath@gmail.com

[dpwishy]

What is the cost to go through this type of auditing? I am sure it is done at an hourly rate? After I looked at the amount of time you would need to audit for and then calculate paying for a service, it seems like one would spend a HUGE amount of cash to even get clear, let alone higher levels. I understand an energy exchange is needed but this has always been a red flag in my path for some reason. Or shall I say more of an alarm that warns me to look closer at something and make sure the energy exchange is fair for both parties.

[jiminii]

so how do you make your postulates worrk

you choose your words wisely

I want is pulling
i don't want is pushing
I need is pulling
I don't need is pushng
I like being with you iis not pushing or pulling and she will agree

how about finding the perfect girl
well when you want to find out if you like a candy bar or not ..you have to be willing to waste the candy bar

so I get on a dating site and I put my poems there and I don't talk sex ... that is the biggest turn off ever
it shows you are not interested in her you only want her body

I put my poems out there and I end up with about 200 or more chinese girls wanting to talk to me ...

I have so many emails that asianfriendfinder stops my emails and wants to know if I am trying to sell something or do something illegal
I have to call them and tell them I am only sending them my poems

they turned on my email

now you have sooooooooooooooo many girls you can't decide because all of them have this Chinese think of looking at marriage like a kind of business

it means what can they get ... type stuff ... and i get a girl who says she is looking for someone to inspire her

and I send her my poems .. she is in a remote part of china not a place i would look ... but she is perfect ...

so we got married

how about jobs
the biggest and best jobs i got in aerospace with the biggest in the world I simply go in
and let them hire me.

you see the recruiter wants to hire you ... so he has all this stuff he has to say about his company to impress you
so I let him run out his entire tape recorder in his head
smile and keep saying " good .. right ... sounds good .. I got i ... "
at the end of the conversation he knows nothing about me ..and I know everything about him .. so I must be the smartest man in the world ...

so he says "have you got any questions?"
I say, "you got any overtime?" they love this

he says "oh yes plenty of overtime."

he says, "do you want to know the benefits "
I say, " no the over time is ok for me"

he says, "when can you start?"
I say "I can start now"

he says, "ok show up monday"

postulates work by the wording ... if you don't want the effort counter effort then choose words that don't effort either way
if you don't want the pulling pushing ... from reverse vectors ... don't choose words that are pulling or pushing

simple

jim

[bram]

Posted by dpwishy (here)
What is the cost to go through this type of auditing? I am sure it is done at an hourly rate? After I looked at the amount of time you would need to audit for and then calculate paying for a service, it seems like one would spend a HUGE amount of cash to even get clear, let alone higher levels. I understand an energy exchange is needed but this has always been a red flag in my path for some reason. Or shall I say more of an alarm that warns me to look closer at something and make sure the energy exchange is fair for both parties.

HI dpwishy, I share your concerns. You could try self-clearing first (its free!!) and get as far as you can, then go to an expert to work thru any problems you couldn't resolve alone. At least that's my plan currently.

love, bram

[jiminii]

Re: the murder of LRH
Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
Posted by turiya (here)
[...]

Just can't help but to post the following in a kind of response...

turiya
Why not post this in Bill's Q&A thread?

I'll be very interested in his own answer because, as far as I am concerned, Osho is advocating the very premise of Scientology, the philosophy, since Scientology is an applied philosophy that has taken on the "religion" label because it deals with "theta"/"spirit"/spirituality which, by definition, is the domain of "religion":

STATIC,
1. a static is something without mass, without wavelength, without time, and actually without position. That’s a static and that is the definition of zero. (5410CM06)

2 . a static by definition, is something that is in a complete equilibrium. It isn’t moving and that’s why we’ve used the word static. Not in an engineering sense but in its absolute dictionary sense. (5608C--)

3 . an actuality of no mass, no wave-length, no position in space or relation in time, but with the quality of creating or destroying mass or energy, locating itself or creating space, and of re-relating time. (Dn 55!, p. 29)

4 . something which has no motion. The word is from the Latin, sto meaning stand. No part of mest can be static, but theta is static. Theta has no motion. Even when the mest it controls is moving in space and time, theta is not moving, since theta is not in space or time. (Abil 114A)

5 . has no motion, it has no width, length, breadth, depth; it is not held in suspension by an equilibrium of forces; it does not have mass; it does not contain wave-lengths; it has no situation in time or space. (Scn 8-8008, p. 13)

6 . the simplest thing there is is a static, but a static is not nothingness. These are not synonyms. We speak of it carelessly as a nothingness. That’s because we say nothingness in relationship to the space and objects of the material universe. Life has a quality. It has an ability. When we say nothingness we simply mean it has no quantity. There is no quantitative factor. (5411CM05)


THETAN,
1. the living unit we call, in Scn, a thetan, that being taken from the Greek letter theta, the mathematic symbol used in Scn to indicate the source of life and life itself. (Abil Ma 1)

2 . the awareness of awareness unit which has all potentialities but no mass, no wave-length and no location. (HCOB 3 Jul 59)

3 . the being who is the individual and who handles and lives in the body. (HCOB 23 Apr 69)

4 . (spirit) is described in Scn as having no mass, no wave-length, no energy and no time or location in space except by consideration or postulate. The spirit is not a thing. It is the creator of things. (FOT, p. 55)

5 . the personality and beingness which actually is the individual and is aware of being aware and is ordinarily and normally the “person” and who the individual thinks he is. The thetan is immortal and is possessed of capabilities well in excess of those hitherto predicted for man. (Scn 8-8008, p. 9)

6 . the name given to the life source. It is the individual, the being, the personality, the knowingness of the human being. (Scn 8-80, p. 46)

7 . energyspace production unit. (COHA, p. 247)

8 . in the final analysis what is this thing called thetan? It is simply you before you mocked yourself up and that is the handiest definition I know of. (5608C——)

9 . the person himself—not his body or his name, the physical universe, his mind, or anything else; that which is aware of being aware; the identity which is the individual. The thetan is most familiar to one and all as you. (Aud 25 UK)

1 0 . a static that can consider, and can produce space and energy and objects . (PXL, p . 121 )


VIEWPOINT,
1. a point of awareness from which one can perceive. (PAB 2)

2 . that thing which an individual puts out remotely, to look through. A system of remote lookingness— we’ll call it just remote viewpoint. That’s a specialized kind of viewpoint. And the place from which the individual is himself looking, we’ll call flatly a viewpoint. (2ACC 17A, 5312CM07)

3 . evaluation is the reactive mind’s conception of viewpoint. The reactive mind does not perceive, it evaluates. To the analytical mind it may sometimes appear that the reactive mind has a viewpoint. The reactive mind does not have a viewpoint, it has an evaluation of viewpoint. Thus the viewpoint of the analytical mind is an actual point from which one perceives. Perception is done by sight, sound, smell, tactile, etc. The reactive mind’s ‘viewpoint’ is an opinion based on another opinion and upon a very small amount of observation, and that observation would be formed out of uncertainties. Thus the confusion of the word viewpoint itself. It can be a point from which one can be aware, which is its analytical definition, and it can be somebody’s ideas on a certain subject which is the reactive definition. (CONA, pp. 208-209)
from these definitions you can see if we use the definition of thetan is the spirit
then viewpoint is a point he views from

in the time track of theta tapes LRH says a thetan can operate more than one body

therefore .. it must have more than one viewpoint ...
and each viewpoint has it's own individual track
and it's own individual memory banks

that is how I see it ... if we are operating more than one body

jim

[deridan]

about those worried about through reading, i've read this thread, only enough to see the dusty wind and know the reason for -moves--- and moves (if the latter is counterattacks, the first would be attacks or imposition ...i calculate from zero, for in such a perfect creation, action must be the most well thought thing --so i've heard in some realm-) {no books yet}

something is troubling me for something taken for granted.
what are ennegrams, (why the thought that it can be erased, ..i knew that when a youngling ere-d with the technical/programming language they applied erasure to past life stuffies..... more rubbish, even an ignant like me would preceive. awareness is the apriopri, to say that anything can be done with it ..mere stupidity,unless one were at some overprespective)
ennegrams, as i'd accept, as to present life situations _embrodelments
....but still a question
from a source systematically describing ennegrams, the bees nees I see to the situation,
is that an ennegram typification can represent you,
it has its own strengths linked closely to the desires selflogical which would call it,
..but the weakness attached to a said ennegram typification... is often that, just a weakness, a blind and damage accumulated..
so what,
erasure would not be the term to apply to it,,,, merely knowledgable recompense

please somebody enlighten me from this fundamental,
...which sometimes makes the rest of u look as quirky to me as this posting may seem - no apology
...perhaps i've heard of enegram animals, and mine was an eagle, so is my mode, diffuse in _ _

[TheVoyager]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by hohoemi (here)

Posted by bram (here)
[..cut..]
Now, if we accept that we have engrams from past lives, this leads to a further two possibilities: either:

(a) that we have a ‘soul’ which continues in this body from life to life, taking with it the results of actions performed in previous lives which may be called karma, including engrams, further adding to this karma by our actions in our current life, or
(b) that our engrams are passed to us genetically by our parents in cellular form in the zygote. [..cut..] Therefore either (i) our engram load is increasing continuously and has done so for thousands (millions?) of years, placing us in possession of millions of unresolved engrams, or (ii) engrams have a finite life, and tend to fade with the passage of time.
[..cut..]

Hi Bram,

I don't know about Scientology, but your question reminded me of Holographic Kinetics by Steve Richards (discussed elsewhere on the forum), so here's his answer in case your interested in correlating different practices:

If they are talking about the same thing - in HK you among other things also look at issues that caused pain in this/past lives and blow that of your timeline - the engrams would come BOTH:
- from your own soul/spirit timeline indefinitley, and
- from your ancestors down to the seventh generation. (At least when I did a session only issues up to 7 generations down the timeline were considered, so I think that's it). No idea where that cut-off time comes from though

Thanks for your thought-provoking questions, I never considered how these things might multiply if there was no cut-off date... I hope HK is right and there IS a cut-off date, otherwise the accummulation would be astronomical.

From what I understand, the part of Holographic Kinetics that works is all based on Dianetics, repackaged in a slightly different format.

Hi Bill,

First of all I want to say that I appreciate very much the information and knowledge about the R. Hubbard tech that you and other members of the forum (jim, amzer zo etc.) are providing here.

On the other hand I find it intriguing that you would state the following:

"From what I understand, the part of Holographic Kinetics that works is all based on Dianetics, repackaged in a slightly different format."

... since I've read your reply to Music on his thread "Bill, Why Dianetics is Not For Me", and if I understand correctly your above statement, you are saying that there is a part of HK that works and there is a part that doesn't work, and the part that does work is all based on Dianetics.

I would like to ask you the following questions:

On what do you base your understanding about the HK technology?
Is it that you've had a HK session or maybe you have even made a HK course?
According to your understanding, which part of HK works and which part it doesn't work?

Thank you.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

Hi, All:

I received a very interesting question by PM, my reply to which I thought it might be interesting to copy here.

********

I was curious to ask you a question. Have you ever been able to get outside the game completely? And I mean all levels, out of the simulation all together. And by this I mean all levels of astral and all other layers to the onion that is the game. I have a hard time finding people that have had a view point outside of the game all together and was wondering if this is something you have experienced?

Hi there, and many thanks for the interesting question.

The answer is yes, on quite a few occasions. The most vivid I recall was when I was so 'exterior' that I had the distinct multisensory impression of being able to hold all of reality, like some kind of god-figure, in the palm of my hand. The experience lasted a few minutes, and I've never forgotten it.

I've had other interesting experiences, also. One I remember lasted a few hours, when I was so totally conscious that I was 'creating' everything around me that I was having a blast driving round bends on a winding road on the wrong side of the road, knowing that there would be no oncoming cars: total certainty, no fear, all in the spirit of play. (Needless to say, I also 'created' a happy outcome: or else I would not be here now still in this body. )

Countless other people have had these kinds of experience also, and they are not restricted in any way to the results of scientology processing. But the simple answer is Yes.

However, none of the experiences have been 'stable' -- i.e. long-lasting. I strongly suspect that that is because of the very strong background intention to be IN this reality, playing 'Games' (so to speak), where the outcome is not certain or assured.

Sitting with an exterior viewpoint is an interesting novelty, but after a while it gets boring as unlimited powers lose their appeal. If all the mountains to climb were reduced to a flat, level plain -- then all the fun of mountaineering would be lost.

We need those unknowns in order to have fun. It's only when things get out of balance that it doesn't feel like so much fun any more.



With very best wishes, Bill

[Billy]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
-------

Hi, All:

Sitting with an exterior viewpoint is an interesting novelty, but after a while it gets boring as unlimited powers lose their appeal. If all the mountains to climb were reduced to a flat, level plain -- then all the fun of mountaineering would be lost.

We need those unknowns in order to have fun. It's only when things get out of balance that it doesn't feel like so much fun any more.



With very best wishes, Bill[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]

I agree wholeheartedly.

Bill do you mind expanding a little more, can i ask how you personally perceive balance. What would a balanced individual or a balanced humanity be in your eyes.

Wishes and peace to you.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by TheVoyager (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by hohoemi (here)

Posted by bram (here)
[..cut..]
Now, if we accept that we have engrams from past lives, this leads to a further two possibilities: either:

(a) that we have a ‘soul’ which continues in this body from life to life, taking with it the results of actions performed in previous lives which may be called karma, including engrams, further adding to this karma by our actions in our current life, or
(b) that our engrams are passed to us genetically by our parents in cellular form in the zygote. [..cut..] Therefore either (i) our engram load is increasing continuously and has done so for thousands (millions?) of years, placing us in possession of millions of unresolved engrams, or (ii) engrams have a finite life, and tend to fade with the passage of time.
[..cut..]

Hi Bram,

I don't know about Scientology, but your question reminded me of Holographic Kinetics by Steve Richards (discussed elsewhere on the forum), so here's his answer in case your interested in correlating different practices:

If they are talking about the same thing - in HK you among other things also look at issues that caused pain in this/past lives and blow that of your timeline - the engrams would come BOTH:
- from your own soul/spirit timeline indefinitley, and
- from your ancestors down to the seventh generation. (At least when I did a session only issues up to 7 generations down the timeline were considered, so I think that's it). No idea where that cut-off time comes from though

Thanks for your thought-provoking questions, I never considered how these things might multiply if there was no cut-off date... I hope HK is right and there IS a cut-off date, otherwise the accummulation would be astronomical.

From what I understand, the part of Holographic Kinetics that works is all based on Dianetics, repackaged in a slightly different format.

Hi Bill,

First of all I want to say that I appreciate very much the information and knowledge about the R. Hubbard tech that you and other members of the forum (jim, amzer zo etc.) are providing here.

On the other hand I find it intriguing that you would state the following:

"From what I understand, the part of Holographic Kinetics that works is all based on Dianetics, repackaged in a slightly different format."

... since I've read your reply to Music on her thread "Bill, Why Dianetics is Not For Me", and if I understand correctly your above statement, you are saying that there is a part of HK that works and there is a part that doesn't work, and the part that does work is all based on Dianetics.

I would like to ask you the following questions:

On what do you base your understanding about the HK technology?
Is it that you've had a HK session or maybe you have even made a HK course?
According to your understanding, which part of HK works and which part it doesn't work?

Thank you.

My information about Holographic Kinetics is largely based on Amzer Zo's reports in various forum threads of some sessions (one or two of which have been pretty spectacular) -- complemented by videos I have watched. I have no direct personal experience.

The sessions that Amzer Zo described look very similar indeed to me to Dianetics sessions. (Maybe AZ can confirm.) And the sessions do seem to have had real, solid and beneficial results. I can understand why, and this is all good.

In other areas, Steve Richards attempts to handle entities, and as best I can see these techniques are more shamanic and are not based on Hubbard's work. While he's evidently had some success in those areas (as have many others practicing a wide variety of techniques), he is entering into dangerous areas here if there are aspects to this very large and potent realm which he may not have all the available information about.

Entity handling is (or can be) a real Pandora's Box, and when that box lid is opened the practitioner had better be very able and knowledgable indeed, or there's a certain risk that matters can be made worse. That's the essence of why I summarized as I did.

[AwakeInADream]

Hi Bill! I think you might have missed my question here:https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post678555

I could still do with some tips on how to do 'reverie' correctly as described by Hubbard in the Dianetics book.
(Although I have just started working through The Pilot's Self Clearing book, so maybe if I'm patient my memory will just improve naturally with this)

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by billyji (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
-------

Hi, All:

Sitting with an exterior viewpoint is an interesting novelty, but after a while it gets boring as unlimited powers lose their appeal. If all the mountains to climb were reduced to a flat, level plain -- then all the fun of mountaineering would be lost.

We need those unknowns in order to have fun. It's only when things get out of balance that it doesn't feel like so much fun any more.



With very best wishes, Bill

I agree wholeheartedly.

Bill do you mind expanding a little more, can i ask how you personally perceive balance. What would a balanced individual or a balanced humanity be in your eyes.

Wishes and peace to you.

I wasn't referring here to a balanced individual -- but to a balanced game.

Games contain:

• Assets and resources you have on your side (like favorable circumstances, knowledge, ability, skill, equipment or money, people working with you and supporting you)
• Barriers (such as unfavorable circumstances) or opponents (especially opponents who have knowledge, ability, skill, equipment or money, people working with them and supporting them)
• Goals and purposes (something that you want to accomplish or achieve).

If you're playing football, a good game is when it's in balance -- like this:

• You have skill and ability
• Your opponents have matching skill and ability
• There's something significant at stake (like winning a trophy, or getting promotion to a more senior league).

The game stops being so much fun when it's OUT of balance -- like this:

• You're far, far better than your opponent, and it's all a simple walkover
• Your opponent is far better than you, and they crush you into the ground
• There's nothing at stake and the game does not really matter at all.

A world-class mountaineer walking up a little hill won't be very challenged. For him, that's not a good game. It's way too easy.

To someone who has little mountaineering experience and who's out of shape, finding themselves on a Himalayan peak is not a good game either. It's way too hard.

But for the world-class mountaineer, climbing Everest is a good game. (He may or may not make it. But he's in balance, he's learning, and he's glad he's there.)

For someone who's been bedridden and is recovering from a serious illness, walking up a little hill is a challenge, and is a good game. (He may or may not make it. But he's in balance, he's learning, and he's glad he's there.)

Does this help explain what I meant a little better?

[Hervé]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
[...]

The sessions that Amzer Zo described look very similar indeed to me to Dianetics sessions. (Maybe AZ can confirm.)...

[...]

Definitely. That's what it sounded to me as well; a Dianetics session with all its communications components (especially the acknowledgement of whatever answer comes up) down to the "re-living" of incidents as if happening in present time, by-passing the soul's/mind's "I remember," by directly addressing "spirit" (i.e. "File Clerk" in Dianetics, which LRH later realized to be the thetan/being itself).

[Hervé]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
[...]

The game stops being so much fun when it's OUT of balance -- like this:

• You're far, far better than your opponent, and it's all a simple walkover
• Your opponent is far better than you, and they crush you into the ground
• There's nothing at stake and the game does not really matter at all.

[...]

... or it's all rigged for the greedy benefit of some betters... like in wrestling with all sorts of entertainment theatrics...

It seems that in the case of planet Earth, the spectators are the various ET factions cheering up their favorite team and putting them on steroids.

[Billy]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by billyji (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
-------

Hi, All:

Sitting with an exterior viewpoint is an interesting novelty, but after a while it gets boring as unlimited powers lose their appeal. If all the mountains to climb were reduced to a flat, level plain -- then all the fun of mountaineering would be lost.

We need those unknowns in order to have fun. It's only when things get out of balance that it doesn't feel like so much fun any more.



With very best wishes, Bill

I agree wholeheartedly.

Bill do you mind expanding a little more, can i ask how you personally perceive balance. What would a balanced individual or a balanced humanity be in your eyes.

Wishes and peace to you.

I wasn't referring here to a balanced individual -- but to a balanced game.

Games contain:[LIST]

But for the world-class mountaineer, climbing Everest is a good game. (He may or may not make it. But he's in balance, he's learning, and he's glad he's there.)

For someone who's been bedridden and is recovering from a serious illness, walking up a little hill is a challenge, and is a good game. (He may or may not make it. But he's in balance, he's learning, and he's glad he's there.)

Does this help explain what I meant a little better?

Yes thank you.

So the player of the game, whether an individual or a collective will be in balance as long as the game they are playing is in balance.

A nice thought to take to bed, night everyone,

Peace

[TheVoyager]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by TheVoyager (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by hohoemi (here)

Posted by bram (here)
[..cut..]
Now, if we accept that we have engrams from past lives, this leads to a further two possibilities: either:

(a) that we have a ‘soul’ which continues in this body from life to life, taking with it the results of actions performed in previous lives which may be called karma, including engrams, further adding to this karma by our actions in our current life, or
(b) that our engrams are passed to us genetically by our parents in cellular form in the zygote. [..cut..] Therefore either (i) our engram load is increasing continuously and has done so for thousands (millions?) of years, placing us in possession of millions of unresolved engrams, or (ii) engrams have a finite life, and tend to fade with the passage of time.
[..cut..]

Hi Bram,

I don't know about Scientology, but your question reminded me of Holographic Kinetics by Steve Richards (discussed elsewhere on the forum), so here's his answer in case your interested in correlating different practices:

If they are talking about the same thing - in HK you among other things also look at issues that caused pain in this/past lives and blow that of your timeline - the engrams would come BOTH:
- from your own soul/spirit timeline indefinitley, and
- from your ancestors down to the seventh generation. (At least when I did a session only issues up to 7 generations down the timeline were considered, so I think that's it). No idea where that cut-off time comes from though

Thanks for your thought-provoking questions, I never considered how these things might multiply if there was no cut-off date... I hope HK is right and there IS a cut-off date, otherwise the accummulation would be astronomical.

From what I understand, the part of Holographic Kinetics that works is all based on Dianetics, repackaged in a slightly different format.

Hi Bill,

First of all I want to say that I appreciate very much the information and knowledge about the R. Hubbard tech that you and other members of the forum (jim, amzer zo etc.) are providing here.

On the other hand I find it intriguing that you would state the following:

"From what I understand, the part of Holographic Kinetics that works is all based on Dianetics, repackaged in a slightly different format."

... since I've read your reply to Music on his thread "Bill, Why Dianetics is Not For Me", and if I understand correctly your above statement, you are saying that there is a part of HK that works and there is a part that doesn't work, and the part that does work is all based on Dianetics.

I would like to ask you the following questions:

On what do you base your understanding about the HK technology?
Is it that you've had a HK session or maybe you have even made a HK course?
According to your understanding, which part of HK works and which part it doesn't work?

Thank you.

My information about Holographic Kinetics is largely based on Amzer Zo's reports in various forum threads of some sessions (one or two of which have been pretty spectacular) -- complemented by videos I have watched. I have no direct personal experience.

The sessions that Amzer Zo described look very similar indeed to me to Dianetics sessions. (Maybe AZ can confirm.) And the sessions do seem to have had real, solid and beneficial results. I can understand why, and this is all good.

In other areas, Steve Richards attempts to handle entities, and as best I can see these techniques are more shamanic and are not based on Hubbard's work. While he's evidently had some success in those areas (as have many others practicing a wide variety of techniques), he is entering into dangerous areas here if there are aspects to this very large and potent realm which he may not have all the available information about.

Entity handling is (or can be) a real Pandora's Box, and when that box lid is opened the practitioner had better be very able and knowledgable indeed, or there's a certain risk that matters can be made worse. That's the essence of why I summarized as I did.

Thank you for your answer, Bill.

I'd like to mention that I have also had an opportunity to read a few transcripts of HK sessions that were at some point put online by Annalie, which, as I understand, were all transcripts of her surrogate sessions.

I would say that there is a huge difference from one having a session of whatever technique it might be, or reading about it, to actually comprehending the rules, having the knowledge and knowing the procedures that are applied during such session.

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
[...]

The sessions that Amzer Zo described look very similar indeed to me to Dianetics sessions. (Maybe AZ can confirm.)...

[...]

Definitely. That's what it sounded to me as well; a Dianetics session with all its communications components (especially the acknowledgement of whatever answer comes up) down to the "re-living" of incidents as if happening in present time, by-passing the soul's/mind's "I remember," by directly addressing "spirit" (i.e. "File Clerk" in Dianetics, which LRH later realized to be the thetan/being itself).

Since Amzer Zo says that a HK session sounded to him as a Dianetics session with all its communications components, it might be fair at least to mention that HK does not use any external devices such as an e-meter.
I wonder if Amzer Zo has done any HK session or is it that his understanding is based on his research.

I would agree with you Bill, that dealing with inter dimensional interferences (of which only one part are entities) can be and it is a very dangerous area, especially when one does not understand which game he/she is in and the rules of that game.

So it might be fair to mention that HK is based on the laws of Lore, which is the understanding of how this creation is governed. When one knows and comprehends the laws of how games are being played and how to be in charge of the game, one can then make changes.
As I understand Steve Rirchards himself is very careful when he is passing this knowledge onto his students, and the knowledge can not be gained through reading about HK technique or having a session.

Please correct me if I'm wrong Bill, but my understanding is that one of the intents of the creation of your game, which is this forum, is to learn as much as possible to bring together the best we have to set us free, to get back our power that we've handed out to others during millenniums.

If so, how about if we let us explore and find out about our options without rushing into putting labels on techniques we don't' have first hand knowledge of. I really think it's not about competition which one was first and who started what when.

[jiminii]

Posted by TheVoyager (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by TheVoyager (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by hohoemi (here)

Posted by bram (here)
[..cut..]
Now, if we accept that we have engrams from past lives, this leads to a further two possibilities: either:

(a) that we have a ‘soul’ which continues in this body from life to life, taking with it the results of actions performed in previous lives which may be called karma, including engrams, further adding to this karma by our actions in our current life, or
(b) that our engrams are passed to us genetically by our parents in cellular form in the zygote. [..cut..] Therefore either (i) our engram load is increasing continuously and has done so for thousands (millions?) of years, placing us in possession of millions of unresolved engrams, or (ii) engrams have a finite life, and tend to fade with the passage of time.
[..cut..]

Hi Bram,

I don't know about Scientology, but your question reminded me of Holographic Kinetics by Steve Richards (discussed elsewhere on the forum), so here's his answer in case your interested in correlating different practices:

If they are talking about the same thing - in HK you among other things also look at issues that caused pain in this/past lives and blow that of your timeline - the engrams would come BOTH:
- from your own soul/spirit timeline indefinitley, and
- from your ancestors down to the seventh generation. (At least when I did a session only issues up to 7 generations down the timeline were considered, so I think that's it). No idea where that cut-off time comes from though

Thanks for your thought-provoking questions, I never considered how these things might multiply if there was no cut-off date... I hope HK is right and there IS a cut-off date, otherwise the accummulation would be astronomical.

From what I understand, the part of Holographic Kinetics that works is all based on Dianetics, repackaged in a slightly different format.

Hi Bill,

First of all I want to say that I appreciate very much the information and knowledge about the R. Hubbard tech that you and other members of the forum (jim, amzer zo etc.) are providing here.

On the other hand I find it intriguing that you would state the following:

"From what I understand, the part of Holographic Kinetics that works is all based on Dianetics, repackaged in a slightly different format."

... since I've read your reply to Music on her thread "Bill, Why Dianetics is Not For Me", and if I understand correctly your above statement, you are saying that there is a part of HK that works and there is a part that doesn't work, and the part that does work is all based on Dianetics.

I would like to ask you the following questions:

On what do you base your understanding about the HK technology?
Is it that you've had a HK session or maybe you have even made a HK course?
According to your understanding, which part of HK works and which part it doesn't work?

Thank you.

My information about Holographic Kinetics is largely based on Amzer Zo's reports in various forum threads of some sessions (one or two of which have been pretty spectacular) -- complemented by videos I have watched. I have no direct personal experience.

The sessions that Amzer Zo described look very similar indeed to me to Dianetics sessions. (Maybe AZ can confirm.) And the sessions do seem to have had real, solid and beneficial results. I can understand why, and this is all good.

In other areas, Steve Richards attempts to handle entities, and as best I can see these techniques are more shamanic and are not based on Hubbard's work. While he's evidently had some success in those areas (as have many others practicing a wide variety of techniques), he is entering into dangerous areas here if there are aspects to this very large and potent realm which he may not have all the available information about.

Entity handling is (or can be) a real Pandora's Box, and when that box lid is opened the practitioner had better be very able and knowledgable indeed, or there's a certain risk that matters can be made worse. That's the essence of why I summarized as I did.

Thank you for your answer, Bill.

I'd like to mention that I have also had an opportunity to read a few transcripts of HK sessions that were at some point put online by Annalie, which, as I understand, were all transcripts of her surrogate sessions.

I would say that there is a huge difference from one having a session of whatever technique it might be, or reading about it, to actually comprehending the rules, having the knowledge and knowing the procedures that are applied during such session.

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
[...]

The sessions that Amzer Zo described look very similar indeed to me to Dianetics sessions. (Maybe AZ can confirm.)...

[...]

Definitely. That's what it sounded to me as well; a Dianetics session with all its communications components (especially the acknowledgement of whatever answer comes up) down to the "re-living" of incidents as if happening in present time, by-passing the soul's/mind's "I remember," by directly addressing "spirit" (i.e. "File Clerk" in Dianetics, which LRH later realized to be the thetan/being itself).

Since Amzer Zo says that a HK session sounded to him as a Dianetics session with all its communications components, it might be fair at least to mention that HK does not use any external devices such as an e-meter.
I wonder if Amzer Zo has done any HK session or is it that his understanding is based on his research.

I would agree with you Bill, that dealing with inter dimensional interferences (of which only one part are entities) can be and it is a very dangerous area, especially when one does not understand which game he/she is in and the rules of that game.

So it might be fair to mention that HK is based on the laws of Lore, which is the understanding of how this creation is governed. When one knows and comprehends the laws of how games are being played and how to be in charge of the game, one can then make changes.
As I understand Steve Rirchards himself is very careful when he is passing this knowledge onto his students, and the knowledge can not be gained through reading about HK technique or having a session.

Please correct me if I'm wrong Bill, but my understanding is that one of the intents of the creation of your game, which is this forum, is to learn as much as possible to bring together the best we have to set us free, to get back our power that we've handed out to others during millenniums.

If so, how about if we let us explore and find out about our options without rushing into putting labels on techniques we don't' have first hand knowledge of. I really think it's not about competition which one was first and who started what when.

book one ... the dianetics book is used all over the world and doesn't use a meter ...
but it takes hours and hours to do it ... running over and over the engram
the new dianetics is to run a chain to it's beginning and then ask the question "what is the thought you had that started this incident" . don't know the exact wording
and the chain blows instantly

it doesn't matter if you are using a book with no meter or the new way with a meter

dianetics will eventually make you go clear

jim

[Hervé]

Posted by TheVoyager (here)
[...]


Since Amzer Zo says that a HK session sounded to him as a Dianetics session with all its communications components, it might be fair at least to mention that HK does not use any external devices such as an e-meter.

[...]

As jiminii mentioned, "Book One" sessions are done without an e-meter.

Listening to Steve Richards recounts of some sessions, the parallels between Book One sessions and HK sessions are uncanny.

On the other hand, surrogate sessions are not part of the original Book One. However, HK surrogate sessions involve what jiminii talked about with "being the space" of the other person being processed and also involved surrendering the control of one's own space to another being in order for the surrogate session to take place.

That's not much different than jim being "audited"/processed via another body of his on "Base 2."