The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by rmauersr (here)

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
As far as I know, a dream where you are the pilot of a plane symbolically means you are making huge breakthroughs in breaking through the limitations in your life. It would be quite interesting to hear some time about what kinds of life changes Ron Mauer has gone through with all the "flying" he has done, if he's willing to share some of it.

I really love the flying dreams in any form: piloting a small aircraft, riding in a small shuttle space craft as a passenger, flying a magic carpet, or flying without the need of an aircraft. Often the flying is during the night. When the experience is of flying a small plane, I have the pilot's license and the skill, but not a recent certification by a flight instructor. So I am naughty and fly anyway hoping that I do not get caught.

I do not think my life changing experiences are interestingly significant to most.

Around 15 yrs old (1957) I had an intense but brief interest in flying saucers (George Adamski's Flying Saucers Have Landed) and learning about our solar system.

Joined the Marine Corps at 17 yrs old. That was a shocking, but common experience right out of high school. (1960-1964)

After marriage #1 (1969-1975) my interest was intensely focused on metaphysical subjects, including the Rosicrucian Order. When the Rosicrucian Order suggested that I mention them in my will I realized something was wrong and quit.

During early 1977, my house sold, I quit my job and moved to Va Beach to learn from Edgar Cayce's A.R.E., psychic readings and more. At summer's end my expectations (psychic predictions) did not materialize and I thought of myself as a failure for selling the house and quitting my job. While packing up the truck to move back to Charlottesville, and thinking how foolish I had been, I heard the big booming voice say "No!". Thinking the voice was saying "No! [do not move]", I replied "You may not need a job but I do." I was offered my old job back. Later I realized the voice was saying "No! [you are not a failure]."

For a year or so a let my metaphysical interests be dormant. Then I was given a book, Carlos Castenada's The Fire Within. The switch was turned on again and I was off and running. Read all his books. But I had trouble correlating what Don Juan had to say with what I thought I already knew. My interest ebbed about the time of a dream about Jesus. In the dream, Jesus (or possibly an imposter) was lying in bed while I was standing on the edge of the bed getting ready to dive into the darkness. Jesus showed me how to grab the back of knees and pull myself back onto the bed. Rather a strange experience I thought.

In the early 90's I was introduced to conspiracy and ET information from the late William Cooper. Not believing any of it, I set out to prove the info as being incorrect and the investigation started. Soon I suspected that Cooper was more right than wrong.

Soon after, channeled information from Barbara Marciniak got my attention. Reptilans, time travel, dimensional travel, Earth's history and more. Again, I could not get enough quickly enough.

My second wife and I hosted a Monday night meditation group for a while that was really nice and well attended for a while. Sometimes the meetings would include channeling, other times it would include healing modalities, Reiki and more. I had hoped that we could establish an intentional community on the 68 acres in rural Nelson county with some of the meditators. That idea did not bear fruit, relationships changed, no one had resources to purchase part of the land. So the idea fizzled.

A few years later, marriage #2 (1982-1999) ended. Wife #2 got a boyfriend and we divorced. I cannot afford another.

I still have part of the original "Gateway Farm" where I built a tiny energy efficient earth sheltered home on Stargate Lane. Where do these names come from?

Hi, Ron. The reason I said it would be interesting to hear of what changes you’ve gone through was because you’ve had so many dreams of flying. OK, I appreciate you used to be a pilot. But even taking that into consideration, I would insist it’s still true that most of that flying in your dreams was a way of breaking through limitations. This is because in the astral worlds we immediately travel elsewhere just by thinking of that other location.

A breakthrough in a higher dimension can take considerable time to “descend” into physical reality. I would expect that meditation and self-reflection would help such a descent to happen more fully and sooner.

Everyone is different, and it seems to be your style to push yourself hard and to downplay and doubt the significance of what you have achieved. I suspect your parents instilled some kind of strong fear of failure in you – some kind of belief that whatever you do, it’s not going to be enough. I’m sure that simply to recover fully from two divorces requires an enormous amount of personal growth. I suspect you’ve managed to do that where many others haven’t.

As I’ve been explaining in this thread, I certainly don’t see astral travel as the best or easiest way for most people to realize their own Higher Mind. I do see meditation – which itself is an OB phenomenon -- as the best and easiest way, particularly when combined with certain types of practices, such as true forgiveness, for instance. As I’ve been explaining in this thread. (It also seems to me that meditation, and certainly not Buhlmann’s or Munroe’s exercises, is the easiest way to learn to astral travel naturally.) I’ve had many PMs from people who believe or have found that they can’t astral travel. Most of them jump to the conclusion that they therefore can’t do anything much in this whole area, except be a failure. I’d like to emphasize to such people that you can indeed start work on reaching your Higher Mind right now, and that I certainly expect you’ll get there quicker than most astral travelers.

All the ego-driven fuss about having exotic astral experiences to me seems like adolescent thrill-seeking – beyond proving to oneself that one is not a body, which you can of course also do through meditation alone.

Each night before I go to sleep I run lots of astral pictures through my consciousness. I do this at about a million frames a second, or something like that. To me it’s mostly junk. Though I do stop at some things that somehow grab my attention despite the enormous speed. Those are emotional issues of some kind that I need to resolve or be aware of. Actually, everybody re-runs the entire day’s events in their mind while they’re sleeping, but I do most of it this way. That’s my main use for astral travel these days. I used to sometimes travel in the formless worlds, but now I prefer to keep being in them continually for as long as possible. Travel in the formless worlds is pure bliss, a much bigger high than anything in any astral world. But being in your Higher Mind is also always blissful – again, far, far preferable to being in the astral. And you can take a shortcut and bypass the astral anyway. As I have been doing my best to explain in this thread. I think that, say, Byron Katie will help anyone get there to some degree, but I don’t even think Munroe or Buhlmann will help most people do so.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
Hi, Ron. The reason I said it would be interesting to hear of what changes you’ve gone through was because you’ve had so many dreams of flying. OK, I appreciate you used to be a pilot. But even taking that into consideration, I would insist it’s still true that most of that flying in your dreams was a way of breaking through limitations. This is because in the astral worlds we immediately travel elsewhere just by thinking of that other location.

A breakthrough in a higher dimension can take considerable time to “descend” into physical reality. I would expect that meditation and self-reflection would help such a descent to happen more fully and sooner.

Everyone is different, and it seems to be your style to push yourself hard and to downplay and doubt the significance of what you have achieved. I suspect your parents instilled some kind of strong fear of failure in you – some kind of belief that whatever you do, it’s not going to be enough. I’m sure that simply to recover fully from two divorces requires an enormous amount of personal growth. I suspect you’ve managed to do that where many others haven’t.

Probably the most severe traumatic event occurred when I was 15 years old. I do not remember much of the details from my own memory, but I do remember what others told me about the event. One evening while Mom was out, Dad threatened to kill my 13 year old sister. I intervened. Mom arrived home, heard the screaming, broke the glass on the locked side door, and cut herself badly. A trip to the police station and emergency room followed.

Perhaps a "fear of failure" came from my father who very often yelled at me "Can't you do anything right?". I really did not like him until my parents divorced. As soon as he lost control of me our relationship was fine. I found myself playing the role of mediator (at 15 years) to help resolve settlement issues between my mother and father. That made me feel good.

Another example of "fear of failure" was my choice to not attend college. Because I had been such a poor student during high school, I felt that I would fail. So instead of pursing electrical engineering, I picked the Marine Corps. The drill instructors were "Can't you do anything right?" on steroids. I survived by becoming invisible but I never became friends with them after they lost control. And they never turned me into the follow orders killing machine they wanted me to be. So I learned to adapt and play whatever role was needed.

Almost forgot this one. I wonder how many people have been sued by their mother? We almost went to court. Mom had a history of suing people and winning. That really created a strained relationship. But a few years later when she had terminal cancer, I was there to help. That felt good too.

My second marriage of 17 years ended with the wife getting a boyfriend while she was still living at home. After she moved out, she and her boyfriend would attend the same monthly swing dance I attended. The first time a saw them together I had to leave the dance after only a few minutes. Next dance I managed to stay until half time. The third dance I stayed the whole time. I was so proud of myself that I was able to do that. So you are right TraineeHuman, I pushed myself, and it felt good. Whenever the uncomfortable emotions about the wife surfaced, I always countered by surrounding her in white light and wishing her well. That made me feel good.

I cannot correlate all those experiences with my many flying dreams, but they may be related.



Being able to have conscious access to higher self is very important to me. OBE seems to be one way to accomplish that. Something is blocking my conscious access and I want to know what it is. It is not fear, rigid belief structures or unresolved relationships (as far as I know) that block me. What else could it be? Could it be an unfinished contract? I feel that any contract that is not part of my conscious understanding can be broken, simply because I have the power to do so.

Must be something I need to learn while riding around in this human vehicle. If I knew the details it might spoil the lesson. Maybe.

In addition to the experience of abundant freedom, well being and joy, my goal is to have the ability to visit any reality for as long as I wish, and visit/interact with anything, any person, and any animal I have ever loved. Come and go on my command. Now that would be fun.

[TraineeHuman]

Ron, in my experience everyone experiences their initial biggest trauma (or two) somewhere between age zero and age nine. The pattern I have always found is that a person subconsciously interprets – and probably to some degree subconsciously even attracts -- any later trauma, such as you underwent at thirteen, as a continuation or complication of the earlier one. The fact that you haven’t been able to recall the details of the one at thirteen suggests to me that you haven’t as yet gotten to the root of it, nor of whatever the initial trauma under age ten was.

But, good heavens! Both your parents out to absolutely crush you? (What a contract to be born under!) That would cause even the sanest person in the world to spend much time in their childhood in an out-of-body state which wasn’t under their conscious control and which they wouldn’t think of, at that young age, as being “out of body”. At that age, it would just be a way to escape, partly out of a justified strong fear – because anywhere inside that body was a pretty dangerous place (emotionally), in your family.

I’m quite sure this has something to do with your problem in going out of your body consciously so you can astral travel. The irony is that you already learnt how to go out of your body when you were little. Unfortunately, doing so was tied to traumatic feelings, and so now I expect some of those feelings will subconsciously be coming up whenever you attempt to astral travel.

By the way, I’ve noticed you’re very telepathic and in other ways quite in touch with your intuition, and therefore with your Higher Mind already.

[Kraut]

Posted by AwakeInADream (here)
That would explain why within the dream state you can have a most profound knowledge and understanding about something like the nature of God for instance,
and then upon waking forget what you absolutely knew for sure, because what your higher self knows doesn't filter through into your everyday consciousness.

Is the spiritual path not about integrating these different parts of the self, so that you may become consciously, what you already are at a higher level?

I've been looking at a lot of the older posts and saw this one. It reminds me that twice, or perhaps more, I had interesting "internal" conversations early in the mornings while I was in a state of semi sleep. I think I was speaking with my Higher Mind, things made a lot of sense, but when I woke up I forgot what was spoken of, I just remember this feeling of things making sense and having a wise perspective. Especially regarding things that were on my mind a lot on those days. The last time that happened was about one week ago.


This is an incredibly interesting thread, with a lot of food for thought. Thank you all who have posted here, I hope to be able to contribute soon. Thanks again.

[Finefeather]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
As I’ve been explaining in this thread, I certainly don’t see astral travel as the best or easiest way for most people to realize their own Higher Mind. I do see meditation – which itself is an OB phenomenon -- as the best and easiest way, particularly when combined with certain types of practices, such as true forgiveness, for instance. As I’ve been explaining in this thread. (It also seems to me that meditation, and certainly not Buhlmann’s or Munroe’s exercises, is the easiest way to learn to astral travel naturally.) I’ve had many PMs from people who believe or have found that they can’t astral travel. Most of them jump to the conclusion that they therefore can’t do anything much in this whole area, except be a failure. I’d like to emphasize to such people that you can indeed start work on reaching your Higher Mind right now, and that I certainly expect you’ll get there quicker than most astral travelers.

All the ego-driven fuss about having exotic astral experiences to me seems like adolescent thrill-seeking – beyond proving to oneself that one is not a body, which you can of course also do through meditation alone.

TH, I cannot agree more with you about this. As usual us westerners have taken a natural phenomena and turned it into a commercial venture.

Not everyone is even ready for astral travel in the lower areas. The biggest mental and psychological problems can result from this practice if we are not careful.
It's ok to go play in the etheric spaces around your house and your city but sooner or later, depending on your emotions and attitudes, you are bound to put your foot into the darker side and meet up with something you are just not able to deal with...then the stories begin, like we see on this forum and in many books of abductions etc.

The amount of books I have come across by ignorant people relating their nightmare OB experiences is of great concern...when you see clearly the reality of what is taking place in these stories. I spent nearly 2 years of training to be able to deal with entities that might otherwise have been reported as an alien invasion

Quiet protective meditation and reflection of our own life is to me the most effective way of raising our consciousness to higher levels.

OB...as is been pushed today in books and by people who may be 'experts' have in my opinion only skimmed over the many dark and dangerous areas we could find ourselves trapped in without the proper knowledge and training. The conflict and doubt by some who just know only what they read is one of the biggest obstacles in their growth towards higher consciousness...they persist in their stagnation by failing to get off their behinds and into their own inner Selves.

Take care
Ray

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
But, good heavens! Both your parents out to absolutely crush you? (What a contract to be born under!) That would cause even the sanest person in the world to spend much time in their childhood in an out-of-body state which wasn’t under their conscious control and which they wouldn’t think of, at that young age, as being “out of body”. At that age, it would just be a way to escape, partly out of a justified strong fear – because anywhere inside that body was a pretty dangerous place (emotionally), in your family.

I do not see my childhood as being all that traumatic. But it did have its peak moments. My sister never recovered though.

Never had a nightmare even though I've had some unpleasant dreams that always ended OK.

Some of the dreams, were dreams of me dreaming, at least 3 levels deep.

Had one lucid dream in the late 80's that I could control. That was fun. The vibrational state occurred in another dream during the 90's. Somehow I knew what the vibration was about and I loved it.

Paralysis waking up from dreams is a bit uncomfortable. Last time it happened I somehow knew that if I blew air on my shoulder it would be over. It worked.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by rmauersr (here)
I do not see my childhood as being all that traumatic. But it did have its peak moments. My sister never recovered though.

As far as I know, I've never met anyone yet who didn't have a childhood containing loads of trauma. The whole way the subconscious (and hence the dark side, and much of the ego) develops is that an event is too painful to look at, and hence gets shoved out of conscious memory, but its pain lingers on and influences us, even though it has been dulled by being shoved by us into our subconscious. This is why the majority of people can remember nothing, or almost nothing, from the first four years of their life. It was just too painful.

Sometimes people have said to me: "Oh well, I don't mind if I don't live so long into old age because I'll be able to reincarnate and start fresh, with a healthier body to do it in." And I think to myself: "Do you have any idea what pain all young kids go through and forget? Do you remember how utterly devastating the birth trauma is, where you get hit at once with the hellish denseness of the physical world as compared to the bliss of the womb, and to be hit all at once with all the heavy judgments on yourself that you made after your most recent lifetime? Do you realize how tough it was for you to be utterly dependent on your parents, and maybe siblings, for your knowledge of what it means to be a human being, or anything whatever? And to have to constantly sell yourself, your soul, to your parents, to please them and seem cute? Do you remember how horrible it initially felt to have to learn how to read, and to have to memorize multiplication tables?"

Worse yet, it's my understanding that most kids are born in an enlightened state. There are very solid psychological experiments that prove they believe they are the universe up until the age of eight months or so. Then all that gets torn away from them and corrupted and soiled.

Also, for instance, do you know that most sexually assaulted kids grow up in families where they are assaulted by a parent or relative, and so they grow up believing that this is normal, that this is what every kid goes through as part of being a kid. Not a bad metaphor, to my mind, to what is unwittingly done to every kid, though of course it's normally less extreme and in many ways unintentional.

By the way, Ron, if you sometimes have dreams of dreaming that go at least three levels deep, let's just declare that that's a an example of successful astral traveling -- into yourself even if possibly not "outwardly" into the astral.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
By the way, Ron, if you sometimes have dreams of dreaming that go at least three levels deep, let's just declare that that's a an example of successful astral traveling -- into yourself even if possibly not "outwardly" into the astral.

My definition of success is the ability to consciously initiate and control the journey, inward or outward, at least part of the time.

Haven't successfully done that yet, except for one lucid dream.

[TraineeHuman]

Ray, your belief that there are no formless worlds is a little nonplussing because you’ve given very little explanation of why you have that belief. You say you consider there must be “space” in the higher worlds. But “space” is the backhand side of “form”. (In fact, strictly speaking it is itself a type of form.) So, it sounds like so far your reason why such worlds can’t be formless is that you’re not willing to consider that they may not have form. So far it sounds like you’re even not willing to consider what a world without form or space might be like.

On the other hand, to deny the existence of the formless worlds would be to deny one of the most fundamental tenets of both Buddhism and Hinduism. It would be a little like announcing to a Christian that no-one like Jesus Christ ever existed. Or, to an historically very informed Christian, like announcing that Yeshua and Judas and the emperor Constantine all never existed. The initial reply would be that the onus is hugely on you to provide some real proof. For many years in my adolescence and my twenties, I used to spend hours during meditation simply reveling in the great “Void”, which is totally empty yet always experienced as far more real than anything in the physical world or indeed in the other worlds of form. I would directly experience that, including its reality and even its more intense reality, and can now as well. Although it’s formless, people like me can feel how it’s in some sense inside all things that have form and that occupy space.

I could easily produce arguments and examples regarding why it seems to me you’re mistaken. Here are several small ones. One book I’ve referred to since you’ve been posting has been The Dancing Wu-Li Masters. That book includes some better examples of formlessness in modern physics than Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, but for now I’ll describe that principle. That principle is as follows. The mathematical equations which describe how a subatomic particle such as an electron or a neutrino moves prove that it’s impossible to know (and impossible for God to know) both the momentum and the position of such a particle at any time. If physicists were totally honest, they would admit this (mathematically) proves that the concept of “subatomic particle” is partially unknowable, and hence partially formless. It necessarily includes some kind of admixture of the formless which is impossible to get rid of.

My second example is that several years ago I was aware I’d been OB traveling in some formless dimensions and I tried to think of how I could describe the experience to Avalonians. The best “approximation” I could come up with was that in some ways it was like being a mathematical point with no extension. Only, it was much more dynamic and interactive than that. By the way, the concept of a mathematical point is itself an example of something totally formless. (So I guess you would have to claim that it’s meaningless, Ray, that it makes no sense?) Because such a point is infinitely small, actually it doesn’t exist in the physical world – though it can be used to help describe the physical world.

Ray, it sounds to me like you’ve been influenced by the writings of Alice Bailey. I happen to know that she was strongly influenced by Leibniz. It so happens that Leibniz called his philosophical system “the monadology”. This was because it was all about how monads fit together and how the universe is made out of them and so on. It so happens that Leibniz claimed that all monads were points that have no extension. I suspect this was partly based on his own experience in meditation. Incidentally, one of the most central themes in Leibniz’s philosophy is the explanation in detail of how timelessness and time as physics thinks it knows it fit together. By the way, Ray, do you know that in subatomic physics it’s been found empirically that equally many subatomic particles at any moment are traveling backwards through time as the number that are traveling forwards. Plus, four times as many, at any given moment, are either popping into existence or out of existence in the physical world, or else are breaking other laws of physics, such as having a positive charge but behaving like a negatively charged or neutral particle.

[Freed Fox]

In an effort (however potentially futile) to clear up misunderstandings or distinctions without differences on this subject, I'd like to briefly chime in re:formless dimensions. Though I have not consciously traveled there with recollection, I do have my (limited) meditation experience as well as insights gained from this thread and a few other places.

Anyway, 'formlessness' is not really the same as 'nothingness', correct? I'm not implying that this is what Ray was thinking, but I can see how others might read as much from your last post, TH. I think this earlier post of yours does a good job of describing it with surprising brevity:

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
My experience is that the stillness is very active, everywhere, all the time. It's in everything. Paradoxically, it's more full, more alive than anything else. It's a very full emptiness. It's like a thousand suns.

It's paradoxical. You can't describe it without using at least two completely contradictory words at once. That's why only the consciousness can understand it, but the mind can't.

I don't believe you'll experience it the way I do by expecting it to be like I experience it. You have to start from how you experience it. You have to get through your initial resistance to bearing with blankness, with inner emptiness, first. Then it will eventually change, but you need to persist with it.

Though I've come to the point in which I find comfort and peace with that inner emptiness, I don't believe I've come far enough yet to see the change to which you were referring.

And speaking of understanding with consciousness vs. understanding with the mind, I am often left unconvinced with mathematical proofs in regards to the greater mysteries of life and the universe. I recognize that math can be a means to describe and delve into a great number of things, but I personally find it to be an approach that is somewhat removed from experiential reality in certain respects.

I'm also led to think about how we perceive our current dimension of physical forms... It occurs largely through the use of our five primary senses; the sensory organs, central and peripheral nervous systems. When a child is born with no sight, the visual elements of reality become to them - in a way - formless. We cannot really describe to them the distinction between red and yellow. So, perhaps (and this is really just me trying to think outside the box here), the formless dimension(s) are those which we have no means to perceive or have yet to develop the corresponding sensory organs for?

EDIT: I should clarify, I realize we can experience and perceive beyond our physical bodies (and therefore without the use of the physical means of sensation mentioned above), but perhaps our ability for our consciousness to do so is somewhat residual to the physical bodies we possess at this time?

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by Freed Fox (here)
In an effort (however potentially futile) to clear up misunderstandings or distinctions without differences on this subject, I'd like to briefly chime in re:formless dimensions. Though I have not consciously traveled there with recollection, I do have my (limited) meditation experience as well as insights gained from this thread and a few other places.

Anyway, 'formlessness' is not really the same as 'nothingness', correct? I'm not implying that this is what Ray was thinking, but I can see how others might read as much from your last post, TH. I think this earlier post of yours does a good job of describing it with surprising brevity:

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
My experience is that the stillness is very active, everywhere, all the time. It's in everything. Paradoxically, it's more full, more alive than anything else. It's a very full emptiness. It's like a thousand suns.

It's paradoxical. You can't describe it without using at least two completely contradictory words at once. That's why only the consciousness can understand it, but the mind can't.

I don't believe you'll experience it the way I do by expecting it to be like I experience it. You have to start from how you experience it. You have to get through your initial resistance to bearing with blankness, with inner emptiness, first. Then it will eventually change, but you need to persist with it.

Though I've come to the point in which I find comfort and peace with that inner emptiness, I don't believe I've come far enough yet to see the change to which you were referring.

... speaking of understanding with consciousness vs. understanding with the mind, I am often left unconvinced with mathematical proofs in regards to the greater mysteries of life and the universe. I recognize that math can be a means to describe and delve into a great number of things, but I personally find it to be an approach that is somewhat removed from experiential reality in certain respects.

I believe I need to explain more behind the background of what I was trying to say. It also helps if we keep in mind that I was trying to communicate to Ray on this tricky subject of formlessness.

On the Forum we use words, which have a conceptual meaning – an “understanding with the mind”. But we usually use them to point to something higher, if not at a higher dimension, than that – something involving an “understanding with consciousness”.

It just so happens that mathematics is a more universal and in most ways more powerful language than English – as some ETs with whom I have had communication have emphasized to me. So, just because I’m using something from mathematics or physics doesn’t mean I haven’t directly experienced its meaning in the worlds of consciousness. As a matter of fact I have experienced it. The subatomic world is a mighty weird place! Actually, mathematics is that language which communicates in terms of eternity and infinity and of what is true in all possible worlds. Without it, we could never even have computers or the internet, or free energy.

In meditation and so on some people do directly experience reality! I have, and I claim it’s even more directly and fully reality than the experience of the physical senses.

Also, presumably unlike you, I have experienced (or I should say been) Source directly, and in many ways some things in the language of mathematics do describe it far more accurately than English. Also, most of the founders of atomic physics and of quantum physics experienced very profound meditation states and phenomena, and they noticed that such a way of seeing was the only way they could describe what lies at the heart of physics – translated by them into the one truly universal language, of mathematics. Also, the author of The Dancing Wu-Li Masters has obviously had such profound experiences, and that was why I referred to him.

I'm also led to think about how we perceive our current dimension of physical forms... It occurs largely through the use of our five primary senses; the sensory organs, central and peripheral nervous systems. When a child is born with no sight, the visual elements of reality become to them - in a way - formless. We cannot really describe to them the distinction between red and yellow. So, perhaps (and this is really just me trying to think outside the box here), the formless dimension(s) are those which we have no means to perceive or have yet to develop the corresponding sensory organs for?

The physical sense organs are all really part of the brain. They’re outgrowths from it, but technically they’re part of it, according to biologists. So, we directly perceive sensory things with the brain.

On the other hand, we experience or are formless phenomena directly through/in our consciousness. It then communicates the perception to the brain. But it lies totally beyond the physical world. So, no matter how many extra sensory organs we might hypothetically develop, I'm sorry to say we wouldn’t be able to use them to directly experience anything in the consciousness, which is where all things formless are.

These are great, very penetrating questions, though.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by seeker1972 (here)
I would like to mention the way I see a lot of things coming together recently. It has to do with learning about ourselves.
...
That's the realization I'm having by the way. It's that Avalon is helping to bring together and help us all to learn about all the different ways people have learned over the centuries for dealing with past experiences that are clogging things up here and now. Past-life regression, auditing, the list goes on. I was able to accomplish it by just meditating quietly once and saying to my physical body, "What's wrong?" That one took me about another 15 minutes to recover from. Many thanks to the people on Avalon who taught me some useful grounding techniques.

... And what I learned a few months ago from here is that it's not that difficult to designate your HS as your own auditor/hypnotherapist/whatever. Just spend 15 minutes putting this subject matter in the forefront of your mind before you call it a night. Just whisper to the ceiling and say, "I'm ready for some more." I like to sit on the mattress just before laying down and visualize energy coming up from the Earth and spiraling up through each of the chakras, to sort of clear out the carburetor.

You will find yourself waking up with pretty vivid memory of the dreams from that night. And their meanings, thanks to the assistance being offered here, combined with the trust of your instincts which you will develop, points you right at the things you need to work on. And it didn't cost me a dime... Nice.

I've had some doozies the past couple months. And sometimes it takes a week or two of contempating them. They become clearer over time sometimes. Other times they are crystal clear the moment you wake up. Like one I had that I knew without a doubt the second I awoke was a message to me about not going around trying to hit people over the head with the truth. You have to learn how to quell your enthusiasm with all the things you learn here on Avalon. :-) It is wrong to confront people about their beliefs. Wait for the curious to come into your vicinity.

In this thread I’ve promoted the safest methods or practices I know of without compromising effectiveness. I totally agree with you, seeker1972, that to see our dark side we just need to look at the mirror of ourselves. If we need anything extra to help us do it, something like Byron Katie’s or Colin Tipping’s methods are enough. The basic principle here is that whatever is in our dark side we don’t see but we still put it out into the world, and since we’re unable to recognize it as our own, we falsely attribute it to others around us.

I don’t approve of hypnotherapy or auditing, for two reasons. One is that as far as I know, both are forms of hypnosis, and I’ve already explained in a post a little over three months ago why I disapprove of that. I know all scientologists vigorously deny that auditing involves hypnosis. But what I’m told by unbiased people with strong expertise regarding what hypnosis is and involves is that that certainly is a form of hypnosis. Even though it’s not hypnosis in the very narrow old-fashioned sense of: “Close your eyes. You are going to sleep.” and so on.

I remember the first thing I read when I began my social work degree. It was a major study that found that how each partner in a marriage described the quality of the marriage was actually an accurate reflection of where they were at, and had no correlation with where the marriage seemed to be at. Thus, one partner with many unresolved complexes would describe the marriage as poor and not good enough. Yet a happier, less neurotic partner would describe the very same marriage as good, or great. Basically, what you think you see in everything and everyone around you – particularly what you see as “getting to you” -- is a mirror of what’s in your own dark side.

Techniques such as Tipping’s and Katie’s get you to find a way to simply accept the truth that the above do mirror your dark side.

But better still, if you can do it, is to be still and locate whatever’s causing unhappiness inside you, then facing it in full to make it go away, forever if you face it fully enough. I don't believe doing it just before you go to bed is the best time, though, because physical tiredness can affect your concentration and you may miss something -- among other technical reasons, which I won't go into.

[soleil]

before i forget, i want to say that for some reason i read truman cash's pdf the eye of ra, and now i'm needing some clarity from TH and finefeather. i dont want to draw fear here, i want to continue learning how to be a sovereign free god.

TH i agree with your methodology. i would think that going OBE to discover what can be discovered through hypnosis or auditing, can be done without being put under. although i only had the one concious (indirect) OBE, i have not had one since. i had had many dreams, but none lucid. im so close to getting it, i can just feel it.

as far as childhood trauma, i set my bed on fire when i was 6 or 7. i now realize why standing next to the stove or reaching in there freaks me out. i also remember one dream from that time. i was probably 5-6. i dreamt that my mom walked or crawled into the tv in our livingroom. there was a wizard stirring a big cauldron, and she climbed into the pot. i know that terrified me for a few years until it was just a memory with no emotion attached to it, like now.

[Finefeather]

Hi TH and All
In connection with formlessness...an extreme subject...

First let me say that I have read very little by so called wise men or women...from the east or India or elsewhere...I follow no one except my own inner direction...I find many of these 'gurus' and 'wise ones' rather dogmatic in a sense, especially in their similarity that we are all supposed to be omnipotent and omniscient Beings...and the impression most of them give...and this is also very evident on this forum...that we are like some Superman who has had a dose of kryptonite and been banished to this dense realm...where we must each find our way back to our source, by some how opening our consciousness to let the real Superman in. A mean God who has no love and has chosen to throw us into the lions den...where we will suffer for some strange sick reason. This is what most so called enlightened people get taught by the so called enlightened.

This idea is IMO a twisted view of the truth and gives the wrong impression because it does not address evolution, which we can see clearly in front of us on this plane. Charles Darwin may have got closer than we think...had he just followed his theory through and included the inner Self. The axiom “as above so below” is clearly not been realised by many so called gurus and intelligent scientists and thinkers.

What we are not seeing clearly is that the 'mysteries' of life...the esoteric truths...are only accessible once we have evolved to a level where we can grasp these concepts and truths...and MORE importantly when we can use these truths in a beneficial way and not for some self serving agenda. A bit like giving a gun to a 2 year old. If we cannot see that we clearly come from...and have risen through and above, by our own doing...the lower kingdoms, then we will forever have the wrong idea of what life is about. Many also have this impression that we are abandoned here on this planet to the mercy of some aliens who are out to farm us like sheep...well...there is quite a bit of truth in this although I made light of it.

In short...every single bad occurrence and problem we see in life...in peoples attitudes, and in the many ways people act towards others...the killings...the rapes...the abductions...the greed...the leader of the pack syndrome...etc etc etc...is all, without exception, due to our still close ties with the animal kingdom. The majority of humans on earth have only just come out of this phase...and are still babies as far as the overall picture is concerned. We are largely still very animalistic in nature...of course there are exceptions. And yes there are many levels of this human phase and there are many who have already evolved out of this human phase...and many of these, more advanced brothers, return to show the way for others to be able to evolve to the next kingdom where supermen exist. But even supermen are on their way to yet a higher kingdom...through Planetary consciousness up through Solar consciousness and towards Cosmic Consciousness...and even beyond.

Like it or not we are evolving Beings...we are not yet even close to omnipotence or omniscience...and no higher part of us as individual 'Spiritual Beings' is neither. The individual Self, which we should not confuse with the 'I' or 'ego' is only apparently Higher because objective consciousness depends on our 6 senses. Five of these we have somewhat mastered because we have physical organs which are more evolved...but 1 of these...the etheric sight, is now been evolved or worked on...our current short term goal is gaining etheric sight to advance our objective consciousness to the point were we can perceive higher states than we can now. At the moment, generally, we are only aware of earth, water, fire and air...because we have objective consciousness in these densities. Beyond these, which we cannot yet feel, touch, taste, hear or see, is not formlessness...it is just a lack objective of consciousness.

Now that leads us to formlessness...
I have stated that there is no such thing as formlessness...and there is no trick to this or playing with words...it is just a fact which depends on your level of consciousness.

Formlessness is a word we have chosen to indicate lack of form...well what is form...-The shape or configuration or structure of something-. So as Freed Fox was saying...Formlessness is not the same as nothingness...if there was ever to be 'real nothingness' then no one would even know about it...it is a bit like trying to conceptualise infinity...you cannot...because how would you know if your mind was at infinity or in nothing? Nothing is clearly a word only of use in objectivity...”I don't have some of that...so I have nothing of that”...'that' may yet not be created or realised, like love, which comes to us as higher emotional feeling...which, by the way, is a physical state in humans. A common problem in understanding our constitution is that we do not take into account the faculties of emotion and mentality. Both of these are only evident to us because of objective consciousness. We have a break up with our best girl or boy friend and only when it starts to register as a physical pain in the heart do we experience emotion in objective consciousness. We think something is in front of us, but only when we bump into it does it become mental objective consciousness...so we can link both emotion and mind to objectivity. It came from subjective consciousness and was realised in objective consciousness.

Now I have been addressing the lower physical densities and we should realise that emotion and the lower mental consciousness is been used every moment of our lives. When we get to the next level, which is our Causal Self...the real you...at this point in our evolution...we become objectively conscious from that density...which is a lot less than down here...but all the same we need objective consciousness before we can gain the wisdom of experience. Now you should just be aware of one thing here.. We can only be objectively conscious of things on our current level, or lower...anything higher is just subjective consciousness...in other words just a theory...because we have not yet become objectively conscious of it. THIS IS THE BASIS OF ILLUSION.

I won't even go into what science says about atoms because they are so far away from the real 'god particle' they just do not know it. The old adage: “knowing we don't know everything” is one thing but the problem is that...we do not even know what we don't know.

Just because an atom appears and disappears is not any indication of formlessness.
Space as we with our little minds think of it is a myth...there is no 'space' that exists which is not filled with primordial atoms...the scale of which we have no way of comprehending...they are so tiny yet it is the source of every intelligence in existence....and one of them is you and another one of them is me...and it is this which involves and then evolves.

So as our consciousness increases we become aware of finer and finer states of the atom which always has form...and in that level of consciousness we experience these as a higher level of form because matter exists there.
When we are in the physical plane we do not experience atoms...we experience a thing which is made up of molecules which is made up of atoms.

Of course we should not get the idea that in 6D or 7D we will all be walking around in shoes and socks, although that is possible...our natural state in higher dimensions depends on our needs, and can be a ball of light. When I go there OB, it feels like I have no body...I do not even think of a body...I just know I exist...but I know immediately when someone else is around because I experience them in a different way now...and they can be anywhere because the connection is immediate.

These experiences, for me, have become objective because I have touched them with my own Self in another way...you can 'feel' and 'see' colours and sounds and love around you as if they were part of you. When these others leave you you know because the presence has changed. I am just in another state and I am using my higher senses there. If I tell you this, like I am now doing, you don't believe me...because you have not objectively experienced it. If someone tells you they did something today...we can only be subjectively conscious of it because we were not there to objectively witness or experience it.
Yes we can now walk through walls in the physical world and we can actually see the structure of the wall like a hologram but as I said before we can experience all the lower levels but not the higher ones if we are not evolved to that point.

Many people think they have experienced high dimensions but they have not...they are just describing some lower levels from their point of view.
At this point in the evolution of the human race...from this current wave of humans...very few are able to go beyond the 4D state...simply because they have not yet refined the 'bodies' which are used to access higher...or rather inner levels of consciousness.

Entering the atom of our Being is an inner journey and cannot be experienced by someone else for us. The realisation of you as a Self comes from objective consciousness...our surroundings. If there was 'nothing' we would not know of our Self.

Consciousness can only be experienced in matter...and matter consists of atoms in some state. What we think of as an atom is not even close to the primordial atom. Science keeps finding more and more levels...deeper and deeper...and in the physical with the most sophisticated equipment we will still never find the real 'god particle' because we are each that one single primordial Atom....there is nothing less to us and nothing more to us...except the consciousness we gain because of evolution.

Take care
Ray

[Jake]

Many people think they have experienced high dimensions but they have not...they are just describing some lower levels from their point of view.
At this point in the evolution of the human race...from this current wave of humans...very few are able to go beyond the 4D state...simply because they have not yet refined the 'bodies' which are used to access higher...or rather inner levels of consciousness.

When it comes to making a finer point, you hit this on the head! Higher dimensions and states of being do not require the human perspective to be experienced. And are usually, completely forgetten and/or rejected by our linear 'filters'. I have only about 30 to 40 seconds in the 'real time' OBE state,, (4d/5d) before it naturally slips into a more natural state of being,, which cannot readily be described, only experienced. Formlessness is NOT the same as NOTHING.

Nothing CAN be comprehended! I do not recommend it!! It sends my entire being into a nightmarish loop of time/timelessness, being/not-being, existing/not-existing,, that feeds back onto itself creating great angst. Quite hard to process, let alone,, explain. The polar dynamic (opposite) to 'something',, is NOTHING... Since 'nothing' CANNOT exist,,, then neither can SOMETHING. And formlessness is all that we have to work with. Inside an atom,, there is a system of energetic properties that can only exist as a SYSTEM. A proton will not exist without the electron, neutron, etc... Each part of the system requires the other parts to 'pull' it into a physical state. Likewise, each part of the system is the same! No part exists without the other. PERIOD! What physics has not embraced yet is the fact that a point of observation is also required as part of the system. Consciousness is required before matter even exists to be comprehended. Vast fields of 'potentials',,, animated by vast fields of consciousness!!! Physicality is only a point of view!!

We may use different wording,,, but I think we are trying to say the same things. The words 'formlessness', 'void', 'nothing', can get in the way of what it is we are trying to describe..

We are pushing through,,,

Awesome post,,, Jake.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by teradactyl (here)
for some reason i read truman cash's pdf the eye of ra, and now i'm needing some clarity... i dont want to draw fear here, i want to continue learning how to be a sovereign free god.

One of the most effective ways to control an entire population is through fear-mongering. The more terrifying, the “better”. That’s what the ancient Egyptian religion was used for. It was used to keep the masses down, not to help them, nor to tell them the real truth. It taught that everyone was given 108 incarnations, and then after that their “soul” was weighed on a special scale. If the person’s good deeds did not outweigh their bad deeds, the person’s “soul” would be destroyed. This meant they would go back to “star dust”, with barely any life-force left in it, and re-start the whole process of evolution as a spirit again, once more being mineral for zillions of years, then vegetable, then animal, then eventually human again for 108 lifetimes.

Such a view of reality is very sick, and quite insane, if taken as having some truth. This is an insanely judgmental view of “reality”, -- except that it has nothing to do with reality. It’s similar to the very sick insanity of believing that God’s “love” means torturing everyone who doesn’t “behave” during one lifetime for all eternity, on the basis of what they did in that one lifetime. You’d have to be pretty stupid to believe that a loving God would be capable of such a thing – unless you grew up in a culture which was very abusive to people from childhood on.

Why did you read a book full of psycho rubbish, teradactyl? I’ve already mentioned that in the astral the Law of Attraction works very effectively. You don’t want to give any support to paying attention to sick junk if you’re going OB, because then you’ll make it “materialize” instantly in the astral. It’s not ultimately real, so even if you get trapped in it somehow, eventually the Light of your Higher Mind will shine through and then all you need to do is step into that Light.

But for now, you have to stop thinking about the rubbish you’ve read. Obsessive thinking, combined with a strong emotion such as fear, is what creates attachment.

[soleil]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)

Posted by teradactyl (here)
for some reason i read truman cash's pdf the eye of ra, and now i'm needing some clarity... i dont want to draw fear here, i want to continue learning how to be a sovereign free god.

One of the most effective ways to control an entire population is through fear-mongering. The more terrifying, the “better”. That’s what the ancient Egyptian religion was used for. It was used to keep the masses down, not to help them, nor to tell them the real truth. It taught that everyone was given 108 incarnations, and then after that their “soul” was weighed on a special scale. If the person’s good deeds did not outweigh their bad deeds, the person’s “soul” would be destroyed. This meant they would go back to “star dust”, with barely any life-force left in it, and re-start the whole process of evolution as a spirit again, once more being mineral for zillions of years, then vegetable, then animal, then eventually human again for 108 lifetimes.

Such a view of reality is very sick, and quite insane, if taken as having some truth. This is an insanely judgmental view of “reality”, -- except that it has nothing to do with reality. It’s similar to the very sick insanity of believing that God’s “love” means torturing everyone who doesn’t “behave” during one lifetime for all eternity, on the basis of what they did in that one lifetime. You’d have to be pretty stupid to believe that a loving God would be capable of such a thing – unless you grew up in a culture which was very abusive to people from childhood on.

Why did you read a book full of psycho rubbish, teradactyl? I’ve already mentioned that in the astral the Law of Attraction works very effectively. You don’t want to give any support to paying attention to sick junk if you’re going OB, because then you’ll make it “materialize” instantly in the astral. It’s not ultimately real, so even if you get trapped in it somehow, eventually the Light of your Higher Mind will shine through and then all you need to do is step into that Light.

But for now, you have to stop thinking about the rubbish you’ve read. Obsessive thinking, combined with a strong emotion such as fear, is what creates attachment.

i suppose i just read it because ive been reading pretty much anything i can get my hands on. however it is a good example of what i dont plan on continuing to read about. its hard as a newbie to discern what free books (pdf) are worth it or not without reading some.

no obsessive thoughts here.

[Finefeather]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)

Posted by teradactyl (here)
for some reason i read truman cash's pdf the eye of ra, and now i'm needing some clarity... i dont want to draw fear here, i want to continue learning how to be a sovereign free god.

One of the most effective ways to control an entire population is through fear-mongering. The more terrifying, the “better”. That’s what the ancient Egyptian religion was used for. It was used to keep the masses down, not to help them, nor to tell them the real truth. It taught that everyone was given 108 incarnations, and then after that their “soul” was weighed on a special scale. If the person’s good deeds did not outweigh their bad deeds, the person’s “soul” would be destroyed. This meant they would go back to “star dust”, with barely any life-force left in it, and re-start the whole process of evolution as a spirit again, once more being mineral for zillions of years, then vegetable, then animal, then eventually human again for 108 lifetimes.

Such a view of reality is very sick, and quite insane, if taken as having some truth. This is an insanely judgmental view of “reality”, -- except that it has nothing to do with reality. It’s similar to the very sick insanity of believing that God’s “love” means torturing everyone who doesn’t “behave” during one lifetime for all eternity, on the basis of what they did in that one lifetime. You’d have to be pretty stupid to believe that a loving God would be capable of such a thing – unless you grew up in a culture which was very abusive to people from childhood on.

Why did you read a book full of psycho rubbish, teradactyl? I’ve already mentioned that in the astral the Law of Attraction works very effectively. You don’t want to give any support to paying attention to sick junk if you’re going OB, because then you’ll make it “materialize” instantly in the astral. It’s not ultimately real, so even if you get trapped in it somehow, eventually the Light of your Higher Mind will shine through and then all you need to do is step into that Light.

But for now, you have to stop thinking about the rubbish you’ve read. Obsessive thinking, combined with a strong emotion such as fear, is what creates attachment.

Love it Hey TH...cheque's on the way

[soleil]

come on guys

[Joe Akulis]

"It’s similar to the very sick insanity of believing that God’s “love” means torturing everyone who doesn’t “behave” during one lifetime for all eternity, on the basis of what they did in that one lifetime. You’d have to be pretty stupid to believe that a loving God would be capable of such a thing – unless you grew up in a culture which was very abusive to people from childhood on."

This is exactly what led me to reject the faith that was handed to me in my youth. Any effort I made to get the reasoning behind why people believed in the above premise was always met with long winded and winding words, and treatises on predestination and on and on... And all I saw the whole time I read all those answers was: Square peg, round hole. The"early fathers" just could not convince me of any of this. This made it easier for me to journey outward and accept that there is more to the truth and our existence than what people tried to hand to me in my cradle.