Moderation, censorship and protectionism.

[Nat_Lee]

Hi !

I have almost read all this post ....
And I had an urge to send a positive message ...

I really don't know why those words came up ?
I just did it and now i'm posting it !

I didn't think about it, I just did what my inspiration was telling me !

so I hope this can help both sides !

[christian]

Posted by Gekko (here)
What people are advocating here is tantamount to Gay Conversion Therapy. "Pray the gay away". It doesn't work. All it causes is more trauma and shame.

It isn't enough for one's sexuality to be a 'merely tolerable deviation'. It's not second-class love. The hierarchy is what justifies violence and discrimination, as happens when people are viewed lesser than.

I'm not saying that anyone has to pray anything away. I just personally think that it's worth trying.

If anyone told me I should resort to gay relationships, I'd indeed say "no, that's not the real deal." But still, I'm neither violent nor do I discriminate. I merely express how I see things, how I deal with them in my life, but everyone should do their thing.

Just me saying what I say about being gay shouldn't take away anything from someone else's experience. If you told me that heterosexual relationships are second class love, I just wouldn't care. I know it for me to be different, and I'd think you're entitled to your opinion.

But you're right, there's no "second class love." I just love, period. Everything and everybody absolutely. There's not second class. I'm just saying that I perceive heterosexual relationships as more healthy than gay ones.

Now here's the caveat. Gays may not be able to enjoy the benefits of a heterosexual relationship. There's some kind of block. And that's why they stick to gay relationships, better than nothing. That's why I say, working on oneself might be worth it. What's so abhorrent in suggesting to really embrace one's physical gender?

-------

Take homosexual sex as a particular form of energy work, cause it is, heterosexual sex as another. I think homosexual sex can be good and beneficial and enriching, I just think heterosexual sex can help you develop even more. Of course I'm hypocritical, having no first hand experience in gay sex. It's just my intuition. But that opinion of mine shouldn't make any gay person feel bad. When a gay person would say the same thing to me the other way round, I'd just say, "nah, I've made up my mind about that, but thanks." I guess that's what most dyed in the wool gays will have to say to my point of view, too.

-------

Posted by Gekko (here)
Now imagine half a thread dedicated to explaining how a German's energetics are unnatural, how their heritage is spotty; admonishing you that being German is a choice, showing that you can change your unfortunate situation with enough hard work.

I'd have a good laugh.

[Nickolai]

Christian,

Please tell me how do you know that gay people do not embrace their own gender?
Curious.
I think here one should understand that being gay is not denying gender. Actually quite the opposite.


Nickolai

[christian]

I knew that question would come.

I think when you really embrace your gender, your polarity, you will naturally seek the other polarity. Hence, if you don't seek the other polarity, you have not really embraced your own gender.

Maybe I'm really stoneage conservative here... Heard that higher beings of light are getting more and more androgynous...

[TODD & NORA]

..........

[The Truth Is In There]

i agree that censorship should have no place here (or anywhere, for that matter). that many people can't deal with certain posts/opinions doesn't justify banning these opinions or deleting these posts.

that doesn't go for pointless personal attacks and bickering that lead nowhere, but it should be allowed to criticise people if the person has the knowledge to back up his/her claims or can explain why a different opinion is being attacked.

that said, i found the article in question insightful and to the point, even though the author did not mention who exactly is behind the moral degeneration agenda as well as communism/marxism and the takeover of the world (the "j"-word. they dare not speak their name...).

as is often the case with certain topics, people are blinded by the love & light agenda and don't see the big picture. it would be interesting to discuss things like the gay agenda or other controversial topics although i don't believe that people would change their mind even if they're shown how all these "freedoms" have already lead to more and more moral denegeration and the corrosion of all values that previously held nations/people together. (divide & conquer)

i'm not against gay people, but i'm against the promotion of homosexuality as something to be proud of or striven for, and against portraying an abnormal biological condition as "normal" when it clearly is not. like many other things this is part of the agenda of the wanna-be rulers of the world. why most people don't realize that is beyond me.

[SilentFeathers]

Posted by christian (here)

Posted by SilentFeathers (here)
Personally I feel that if someone wants to be gay that is there right.....but they and or the government has NO RIGHT to force ME to accept it as a public spectacle and for me to step aside to give them the "right of way".

I don't quite understand what you wanna achieve. What does "accept something as a public spectacle" mean? Do you want to forbid Christopher Street Day parades? If someone is a football fanatic and has a party about it, it's his or her thing. Let them celebrate, same goes for gay people. You don't have to participate. Do you mean that gays should only be allowed to be gay in secret?

Posted by SilentFeathers (here)
being forced upon everyone to accept as normal behavior regardless of their beliefs and or moral values

Accepting something as normal means to accept it as the norm, i.e. being taught that this is how you should be. I don't think that this is happening, it's more about tolerating gays and not discriminating them, which is fair enough, in my opinion.

Christian, I feel my initial response was perhaps a bit rude by not explaining myself more, I don't always use the right words in my posts, which leave many guessing to what I intentionally try to get across.

I think the gay movement has become a very public spectacle, it's front and center in many ways right now, sort of like the gun control debate after Sandy Hook or how the abortion topic or a few other hot topics are right now. You mentioned that we or I don't need to participate, that is not true IMO. This and several other issues are forcing all people to some extent to participate, whether it be to tolerate it and or step aside.....either way it is becoming something that is now being put on law books and will affect everyone in one way or another. Even TV is causing it to affect everyone with the way they are saturating the gay concept in many TV shows now.

I've had a few friends over the years who are gay, they remain my friends and I have always voiced my feelings about their choice and way of being. I've always told them I felt being gay wasn't natural, unbalanced, and is a personal choice, I didn't love them any less but it was their business how they wanted to live just as it was my business to choose how I wanted to live.

It is becoming a "normal" way of life now in our society....forced participation either to accept it or to reject it. Before it just was not a major issue IMO.

Personally I feel if the public should accept and tolerate gays unconditionally the same goes for polygamy....it's the same thing but with a different twist IMO.....a behavior and a choice.

If two men or two women can legally get married to each other and have all the legal benefits as a traditionally defined man/woman marriage, then why can't a multiple sex group of people get married too and have the same rights of a traditionally man/woman marriage?

Those that don't believe abortion is right must now tolerate it because of laws since Roe vs Wade, etc.....the same goes for gay marriage, the more laws being passed, the more the public will be force to accept and tolerate it, regardless of how they feel about it.

I think all gays are making a HUGE MISTAKE going full steam ahead legalizing their way of being......they are setting themselves up to be taxed and charged fees beyond belief and the government will make millions if not billions off them. Gay marriage laws will also better secure banker loans such as mortgages, credit card debts. etc etc etc.....and then there's the "divorce" aspect which courts and states etc will make tons of money, not to mention Title IV-D and the whole child support mafia like pyramid scheme hammering them when children are adopted into these marriages and involved in divorces.

The government wouldn't be supporting and pushing this whole gay agenda if there wasn't tons of money in it for them to be made.

Sure my original post/response may seem a bit biased, but it's not because I am against a persons right to be gay and live how they want to live.....it's more about how it's become a "public spectacle".....

[Kraut]

Posted by Beren (here)
Ulli & other German friends , hold on , there will be always Heil Hitlers upon you...
Don`t allow this to quench your open spirit...

For others , be them German or not (I`m not German and Serbians and my Slavic brothers Russians & Polish heavily suffered under Hitler`s boot, but that`s long gone now) it is history now.
Hitler is dead and his deeds with him.
Maybe there are Hitler wannabees today but they know no nation, they are in every nation.

In case of Raf`s thread here , I believe there was a lot of (if not all) comments which are extremely well said.
Kudos to all!!!

What I will never understand is why there are Neo-Nazis everywhere, even in Russia and Poland who wear swastikas and scream "heil Hitler". Why are they not scolded by their own people who should show them to know better?

Sad fact about Germany is that the Nazis never really left, many of them kept a low profile and were still beneficial to the Allies and in different offices. I have witnessed more than once that the spirit of the Nazis has been kept alive and well in all these decades since WWII. An acquaintance of mine is a good example, his Grandfather was a hardcore to the bone Nazi, a true believer. Even after the war, he passed that on to his son, who passed it own to his own son (my acquaintance). Many of the sentiments that led to the rise of the Nazis are becoming trendy and common once again. But that is not limited to Germany.

[Kraut]

Posted by christian (here)
You may be quite right with your analysis at the end... I'm seriously looking to move from Ecuador to Greece in September, which would be fun as a German, I guess.

Someone's gotta do something for the Völkerverständigung.

Wow, you're brave, sometimes I think Germans won't be very welcome in Southern Europe if things continue the way they're going now. Couldn't blame them either. From what I've heard the anti-German sentiments in Greece are getting stronger.

[naste.de.lumina]

The human psyche is so complex.
Understanding what is happening with us now is a giant task, perhaps with each individual complexity.
In a work project I met a guy who was involved with a group of neo-Nazi 'bald' as a teenager.
The last news I had about it was that had taken their transgender condition.
Walking life, life that follows.

[ulli]

Posted by Kraut (here)

Posted by christian (here)
You may be quite right with your analysis at the end... I'm seriously looking to move from Ecuador to Greece in September, which would be fun as a German, I guess.

Someone's gotta do something for the Völkerverständigung.

Wow, you're brave, sometimes I think Germans won't be very welcome in Southern Europe if things continue the way they're going now. Couldn't blame them either. From what I've heard the anti-German sentiments in Greece are getting stronger.

All the more reason to immerse in that culture and work side by side with the people,
as compensation for the harsh restrictions the Merkel admin and her banker buddies have imposed.
Government policies are failing to punish the real culprits and so the masses are taking the brunt.
The job will be a tough one, but also help Christian on the path he has chosen, which is humble and selfless service.

[sdv]

Posted by SilentFeathers (here)
I think the gay movement has become a very public spectacle, it's front and center in many ways right now, sort of like the gun control debate after Sandy Hook or how the abortion topic or a few other hot topics are right now. You mentioned that we or I don't need to participate, that is not true IMO. This and several other issues are forcing all people to some extent to participate, whether it be to tolerate it and or step aside.....either way it is becoming something that is now being put on law books and will affect everyone in one way or another. Even TV is causing it to affect everyone with the way they are saturating the gay concept in many TV shows now.

I've had a few friends over the years who are gay, they remain my friends and I have always voiced my feelings about their choice and way of being. I've always told them I felt being gay wasn't natural, unbalanced, and is a personal choice, I didn't love them any less but it was their business how they wanted to live just as it was my business to choose how I wanted to live.

It is becoming a "normal" way of life now in our society....forced participation either to accept it or to reject it. Before it just was not a major issue IMO.

Personally I feel if the public should accept and tolerate gays unconditionally the same goes for polygamy....it's the same thing but with a different twist IMO.....a behavior and a choice.

If two men or two women can legally get married to each other and have all the legal benefits as a traditionally defined man/woman marriage, then why can't a multiple sex group of people get married too and have the same rights of a traditionally man/woman marriage?

Those that don't believe abortion is right must now tolerate it because of laws since Roe vs Wade, etc.....the same goes for gay marriage, the more laws being passed, the more the public will be force to accept and tolerate it, regardless of how they feel about it.

I think all gays are making a HUGE MISTAKE going full steam ahead legalizing their way of being......they are setting themselves up to be taxed and charged fees beyond belief and the government will make millions if not billions off them. Gay marriage laws will also better secure banker loans such as mortgages, credit card debts. etc etc etc.....and then there's the "divorce" aspect which courts and states etc will make tons of money, not to mention Title IV-D and the whole child support mafia like pyramid scheme hammering them when children are adopted into these marriages and involved in divorces.

The government wouldn't be supporting and pushing this whole gay agenda if there wasn't tons of money in it for them to be made.

Sure my original post/response may seem a bit biased, but it's not because I am against a persons right to be gay and live how they want to live.....it's more about how it's become a "public spectacle".....

The reason why it is a 'public spectacle' is because gay people are discriminated against and the law supports that discrimination and the people who are being discriminated against are trying to change the law (and, of course, because some people just like dressing up and parading through the streets and having fun!).

It always amuses me when people start with something like ''I personally have lots of gay friends" and then proceed to share their bigoted beliefs about gay people. There seems to be a contradiction within these people.

I really do not want to condemn, ridicule or hurt anyone who shares their beliefs and opinions, even though I regard them as bigoted and false. Everyone has the right to be accepted, as long as they do not hurt others.

Homosexuality, bisexuality and heterosexuality are all part of the human experience. In fact, any kind of expression of sexual desires is part of the human experience. As human beings, we get to decide what is permissible and what is not because we have the ability to make informed choices and the power to act on those choices. Homosexuality and bisexuality are increasingly being accepted as a normal part of the human experience and those who oppose this are going to be left behind in bigoted enclaves (just like those who once proclaimed that sex in anything other than the missionary position was deviant). What I am trying to say is that it is not about what is natural or unnatural (although I am willing to argue those points with bigots), what is morally right or wrong, and so on, but what human beings choose.

(I keep using the word bigot, which is obviously an expression of my beliefs, but if anyone is truly offended and you would like to suggest another term I could use, then I will edit this post accordingly.)

Now, just a few personal responses about just a few statements on this thread with which I disagree:

Homosexual relationships are unhealthy. I personally know a lot of heterosexual relationships that are so toxic that they negatively affect a significant number of people around them. I personally know homosexual relationships that are healthy and positively affect a significant number of people around them. There are perverts and toxic people among homosexuals, bisexuals and heterosexuals. We all basically have the same needs, experience the same emotions and are challenged in the same ways in life.

Anatomically sex is supposed to between a man and a woman. I heard that one from my neighbour, who, charmingly, used some cringe-worthy metaphor of a bolt and a screw! All I can do is shake my head and say, well, at least we have, mostly, moved beyond the belief that anything other than the missionary position is deviant!

Sex is for procreation. Maybe sex was invented for joy and pleasure, and is used as a delicious carrot to ensure procreation. Then humans, because we are complicated, invented birth control, which took us back to the place of making a conscious and informed choice.

[SilentFeathers]

What amuses me is how fast one is labeled a bigot or racists now a days when ones opinions or comments do not 100% agree or favor an issue or topic of discussion.....

[ulli]

Posted by SilentFeathers (here)
What amuses me is how fast one is labeled a bigot or racists now a days when ones opinions or comments do not 100% agree or favor an issue or topic of discussion.....

Although I consider myself rather liberal, and most who know me think of me as extremely liberal,
yet I'm beginning to wonder how far the push of permissiveness is to go.
It has become a bit of a cacophony in the last ten years.

In fashion magazines like French Vogue, younger models are chosen deliberately, to push against the censorship agenda, more now than ever before, unaware that they are feeding the pedophile agenda.
There are demands for the rights to ignore those people in our society
who wish to protect their kids from extreme tastelessness, or predators.
As I said before, I'm against excess, not against private matter choices.
This is not just about homosexuals, but heterosexuals, too.
And sexuality, being practiced behind closed doors, is in my view a private matter.

All sexual exploitation is just one side of the coin, of which the other side is shame, as advocated by 'celibate' church leaders.
These two poles create bewilderment and confusion instead of offering real insights into sexual mysteries.

Part of the duality agenda to keep everyone in the dark.

[Carmody]

And..in that grey area ...we flounder. Every now and then we spot something definable in that grey..and we label it. A point, an anchor, a rock, a thing, a differential. Yet it lies in the grey for some, still floating, definable, yet undefinable. Both meaningful and meaningless. Again, begging the question of what exactly is a what.

Most of us aren't actually in control of our bodies (whatever a body is defined as), which is what creates the moment of the environment for the very idea of definition - which kinda complicates the matter.

"I think," Descartes said, a self declaration and reflection speaking to it's self. All academic, it is.

His statement that followed, was just as ridiculous: "Therefore, I am".

The most categorically false of statements that can be, at the same time the most true.

What to do?

[Kraut]

Admittedly, I am still new to many spiritual concepts, but here's a thought: there seems to be a female and a male principle to things. A cosmic principle. How does that relate to the topic of homosexuality? Does it relate at all? I'm curious what you think.

[Ernie Nemeth]

I think we have all been programmed to have an opinion about everything. Even things that are not our concern. I still sometimes think back to this first time I was asked what is my favorite color. "Favorite"? It still confuses me why I should have a favorite color, car, food, dessert, etc. I like many things equally, like colors, cars, food, desserts. As a child this confused me and made me wonder what kind of entities I was going to have to live with. There have been many such cognitive paradoxes while growing up. And I have not been immune to the inclination to judge that was inculcated into my pysche in my formative years.

More recently it has been the stop/ban smoking campaign. It is commendable that certain activist groups targetted smoking as the single most preventable health issue around. They wanted to save the health of future generations, and that's good. But, it was done unilaterally and targetted the smokers themselves with financial hardship to encourage them to quit. This is like taking a heroin addict's drugs away without a methadone clinic to fall back on. A pack a day smoker's costs skyrocketed from about $30/mth to more than $300. That is a big chunk of change for the lower economic stratas of our society, where most smokers reside. Good idea - bad implementation. All because a few had an opinion and judged all smokers as fair game...

We need to stop judging things that are none of our business and that infringes on the rights of others to freely express themselves as they see fit - without recrimination by those on the sidelines.

[Mike]

Posted by christian (here)
Anyways, in my personal perception, there's something off with the energetics of gay guys. I mean, they may be OK and quite healthy overall, maybe even more so than a lot of straight people, but the way I perceive their energy, the energy of a healthy gay person is simply not flowing as it does in a healthy straight person. And I find the flow in a straight person to be more "natural" in a way, this is the best word that I can come up with at the moment, but I'm really at a loss for words here.

well I know why you perceive it that way, Chris: it's because you're a straight guy! because look, when I see 2 men sharing affection it seems unnatural to me too...the key words being *to me*. but I also recognize they may view my sexual orientation with perplexity as well. it's just preference. i'm equally confused as to why people like squash. it's like that, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it unnatural or unhealthy. the connotations suggest intolerance.

p.s. let me guess, you likely feel the "energetics" of 2 smoking hot lesbians in a naked embrace are perfectly natural? how did I know?!?

[Mike]

Posted by Gekko (here)

Posted by ulli (here)
So it grinds me a bit to have to see this kind of rhetoric still popping up in 2013. Will it ever end?

Right. Now imagine half a thread dedicated to explaining how a German's energetics are unnatural, how their heritage is spotty; admonishing you that being German is a choice, showing that you can change your unfortunate situation with enough hard work.

What people are advocating here is tantamount to Gay Conversion Therapy. "Pray the gay away". It doesn't work. All it causes is more trauma and shame.

It isn't enough for one's sexuality to be a 'merely tolerable deviation'. It's not second-class love. The hierarchy is what justifies violence and discrimination, as happens when people are viewed lesser than.

if I were half as intelligent as you Gekko, this would have been my first and last post in this thread.

well said!

[Sierra]

When I belonged to a small home church (no church building, just in people's homes) decades ago, some people joined from back east, a mother of two of the boys, and two of their friends, five in all. After a few years of friendship, one of the guys asked me to be his girlfriend. Well he was gay, we all knew he was gay, he knew he was gay, but he didn't want to be.

I knew, rock solid knew, this wasn't going to work, but for the sake of his processing his way through confusion I said yes, and we proceeded to date. Very shortly after we broke up a few months later, still friends though, at the mother's house (we were all present, those from back east, a few others) my ex-boyfriend and the man he was falling in love with were there. I tell you, the issue is not sexuality, it is intimacy, who are we comfortable being intimate with. My ex-boyfriend's face was open, reactive, intensely aware, laser focused... more so than we who knew him, had ever seen before. My ex-boyfriend, and his future boyfriend left, and the rest of us, just ... heh, looked at each other. Nothing needed to be said, it was as clear and explicit as could be, he was gay. I knew that, it just took him awhile to get it, to disagree with the programming of the church (he was raised Catholic). I was so grateful for his friends. When he told them, it was ah, no biggie, and we're still your friends.

Por favor, instead of calling being gay, deviant, could we instead refer to the bell curve of human behavior? This would make more sense, given that gays have been known and recognized since recorded human history began (consider the poetry of Sappho, the instruction of Plato). This is not something that suddenly occurred as part of the Illuminati divide and destroy program, though they have taken full advantage of the programming they installed in the monotheistic religions. It is divide and conquer as usual.