Enlightenment and Male Vanity

[Flash]

from 778: You sound exactly like my mother, I understand what you tried to do here, however androgynous thinking also INCLUIDES male hormone influences, and here comes anther how ever, there are RIGHT male hormonal influences and WRONG ones, and prolly some neutral ones too

Yes, 778 and Ulli, once i was in a very spiritually oriented class, having lessons on the higher worlds (with experiencing or not), therefore all in clouds, when I made a sudden comment wher everyone came back down: we started to talk about men/women spirituality and the fact that mostly women come to those classes except for older men, and I said: Well, in men, when testosterone goes down, spirituality goes up.

Often, men get it in their forties or fifties. Before, instinct are driving them (by) nuts. LOL pun intented.

With sons, husbands, friends, we just have to be patient, light does lit up at some point.

[ulli]

Posted by Flash (here)
I love this thread, truly.

Stan, do speak please, I will pay particular attention from now on.

Spiral, allow me to be "batting for the oppositon" once in a while, it is sometimes part of agile communication at times and other times simply part of being human. To me emotions are the 3D processor for higher love, when conscious. When unconscious, watch out.

Ulli, your son has had your influence, that he acknowledge it or not. The way it is integrated is also dependent upon his soul abilities to absorb and process - we all have different kind of souls although we are one. But let time do its bidding with him, this is my intuition about him.

Yes Gripreaper, challenging the status quo, it takes strenght and at time softness, which some men and women have, both, but the courage to do so has to be constant, even within oneselve.

T Smith, everything has to do with balancing testosterone and estrogen .

Calz, just by being on this thread we are showing that a change process is occuring somewhere.

And 778, you got it, I will go take a walk now.

I enjoy the thread.

Now I just wish more Avalon women would bring their views here...
not just you, Flash, and I, who are on the same page.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Calz (here)
Family day so have not been able to keep up here (will catch up later).

I thought I would share this one posted by our esteemed giovonni on his Ranch thread from James Gilliland.

Rather on topic and the timing quite ... interesting ... for this thread.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post707901

ECETI NEWS

Many are feeling intense energies which seems to have began yesterday but today it was very strong. It was extreme sadness, deep ancient cellular grief centered around male female relationship. It felt like a rebirth of the feminine stepping back into their power and the males reaction to the projection of those
energies. This process was very intense and hard to assimilate best advice is
taking some space and alone time with compassion for the process. There are
eighth dimensional beings involved in this process. There are star gates opening
assisting in the Earths birthing process along with entire spiritually and
technologically advanced beings, Star Nations also assisting in this process.

On a darker note the chemtrails have a new batch of biologicals in them which
resemble strep throat. People all over the US are coming down with this and the
throat feels as if it is swollen shut making it very hard to swallow. Many are
using different remedies I used colloidal silver and swished some olive oil in
my mouth which worked wonders. I also did a cleanse right after ward using apple
cider, epson salts, followed by olive oil and grapefruit juice. Be sure to be
close to the porcelain God because the bathroom needs to be handy. This is my
own personal process and I am not a doctor or give advice.

At 7:50 PM a very large mother ship flew over the ranch with over 10 witnesses
in a daylight sighting. It vanished over Mt Adams in pixelated sparkles. The
night before was filled with ships powering up and putting on quite a show. The
night was filled with multiple ufos and a massive powerup in the West. Thats it
for now. Hang in there not long now before the end of tyranny. Be well.

James Gilliland

www.eceti.org
www.bbsradio.com
www.worldpuja.net

Thanks for that post Calz.
I now understand that insistent prompting that got me to start this thread...
even though I have felt inclined to do it quite a few times before, but never like today.

[ulli]

Posted by 778 neighbour of some guy (here)

As far as getting men together to support each other in this shift, I'd be patient. Moving from the patriarch towards unity is going to require extra effort from the women, I'm afraid to say. It's time for the women to step up and take the reigns. It's time for women to lead the way, cause the men can't and wont do it.

And ladies, understand this, we men are a very fragile and insecure sensitive bunch( you all know it, we get played like little fiddles, don't deny it, its true), if you can take charge, choose your words right and when and if you can do this without giving men the feeling they are being neutered, we will be your best friends, for life, no question, no argument, just let us be men when we need to be men, at work with the youngsters I tear up when a 16 year old asks me how to shave and show it to him, I grow stubbles just for that occasion and show him how its done ( try that with a leg ladies, I have seen them try and its not what is required)

I come from a family where equality was rule, my mother was one the frontrunners in the emancipation movement, sensitive yet militant( mr dad, went along to far with it for that matter and turned into a nutless squishy wimp, something ms mom did not appreciate at all, told him to grow a pair and when that did not happen they split up), basically I can tell stories for hours how equality should work ( friggin social worker parents, really), but first it has to balance out in a person individually, don't just tell each other what to do, show each other how to do it, respectfully. We have a lot more in common than bellybuttons.

As grandma used to say when she ditched Catholicism after the shyte she saw in the war, "this whole book and all others like it and all fancy rules to live our lives by can be replaced by one sentence,........Just for today, try not to be a c*nt." Obviously I have discovered this is an excellent rule and always applies.

I believe in equality, but we are by no means equal, and I believe men can adapt ( notice how I did not use the word "change") show us how and give us a choice, show us the better way, lets us decide for ourselves, when we recognize the validity we will adapt, and we have done so for many thousands of years before, if not we would be extinct, that is a fact we fully recognize, when you rub our noses in that to hard and often we will very likely become bitter drunks or suicide bummers ( you know, those fellers with the odd body warmers), we cant beat you and we know it, and we also know its not about winning or losing, we can not give birth, we cannot create live, you ladies must realize what an amazing creature you can be to us, we have got nothing on you, we know fully well we can be pretty much full of sh!t, its all you left us, goddammit.

So..... this rule applies for both sexes in all circumstances "Just for today, try not to be a c*nt"

Howg

All jokes aside, this is a great topic Ulli and I fully understand and I see it all around me, but..............not all men are the same.. take it from guy who could be your kid.

As a mother of a boy I tried hard, but to this day feel like a failure.

I don't want dismiss your feeling here, and know nothing about your attempts, but let me tell you, if you gave it your best shot, you gave it, being some ones kid my self I can say whole heartedly, kids can be total jackasses but eventually we will learn and think back to the times our mothers tried to tell or explain us something, no matter how old or wise we became, I am sure you have done just fine.

My thing was to prepare a way to spirituality thinking for him,
which I also equate with androgynous thinking,
free from male hormone influences.
No such luck, at least not so far.

You sound exactly like my mother, I understand what you tried to do here, however androgynous thinking also INCLUIDES male hormone influences, and here comes anther how ever, there are RIGHT male hormonal influences and WRONG ones, and prolly some neutral ones too.

Thanks again for the OP Ulli, a good subject to dig in to.

Ed

It was not until I was married for the third time that I discovered that not all men are the same.
But then I attributed the difference to cultural backgrounds.

As much as I have issues with the Catholic Church...here in Latin America
it has helped to elevate women to a higher level of respectability,
due to the feminine image of the Virgin permeating everything...
while at the same time allowing men to still keep their machismo (male ego).
What a world!
One thing I noticed...here I find far less striving
for enlightenment than in western countries I know.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

It was not until I was married for the third time that I discovered that not all men are the same.
But then I attributed the difference to cultural backgrounds.

Funny enough I found out exactly the same in my relationships and even funnier my ex girlfriend (black) said she would never date or fall in love with a man again because we were all basically cheating, not trustworthy, egocentric racist dicks, let alone a white guy, no friggin way, she tested me, teased me, tried to mess with my head to get her confirmation, I didn't give her jack sh!t in regards to that, took her by total surprise and voila a wonderful relationship bloomed up under the most unlikely circumstances,, what was very funny to me was the role pattern she was programmed with, this was never a problem btw, she was a woman and I am a man and that was just fine, I cannot count the times she CHASED me out of the kitchen( I like to cook because I like to eat), into the living room, she turned on the tv, handed me a beer, told me to stop looking surprised and just chill out and let me fix you dinner and tonight theres going to be another surprise for you, this was amazing and indeed cultural, but didn't have any issues what so ever in this, no tight buttcheeks, just the way it was and felt completely natural and satisfactory to both of us, even better was.. she was an accountant for a mayor firm, made serious money, didn't take sh!t from anyone ( she would fight you if you did and you would bleed too, funny as hell, not very enlightened but very funny), so........... when lines are defined without being pushed onto each other things can go very smooth too, without a hitch.

[Another1]

Your post is good to see here. I can tell you one thing for certain, both male and female 'experts' in this genre all over the internet have a tendency to respond with an energy of, "Who the hell are you?," when they see new ideas arrive with a youngster that may conflict with their 'authority'

I had not thought of the situation in these male/female terms too much until this week due to a post suggesting Alpha males should die and this one here you have started.

This I believe is a fact:

Ulli said - I do know that when anyone reaches a spiritual plateau of integrity dark entities take hold of those who are not quite there yet, and unbeknownst to them attempt to tear down the enlightened one.

As an observation from someone who still feels new here at Avalon:
It's common for me to have a seeming conversation inside with people met in a new place. I have no strict definition for this or care to discect it too much beyond my assertion that the heart channel is real.

This place as a 'group mind' has been welcoming to someone who is not necessarily in the current mainstream. There is more balance here than I am accustomed to.

As my first posts went up and the energies of various people began to seep through here, the 'conversation' inside was less aggressive than I'm used to and more about, "How can we help?" I was led to read the entire 48 page spread begat by Bill's post under Priority threads, the Ultimate Hypothesis.

Reading all of that thread helped me get a feel for how to better approach what I wanted to communicate. There were at least a 1/2 dozen times when I felt like the poster was someone I should meet but their profile in most every case was empty while many of the posters who I thought would be itched by my comments had full profiles to the point where I can just hit a Skype button to meet them?

Gripreaper wrote:

Men who are moving from the male dominated patriarchy towards the androgynous unity, are being ridiculed and marginalized, because the males as well as the females who support this old dialectic, don't want the status quo challenged.

My step out of the total male dominated reality was fought against well, in one case, by a powerful group that thought my belief in a Goddess, equal to their 'God', was silly. They even assigned a mate who thought so.

As part of our graduation we were directed to create a business card asserting 'In His Majesty's Service' ~ As a final 'standing my ground' statement, I had mine gold embossed asserting 'In Her Majesty's Service' ~ The result was a very well crafted multiple level attack that left a gaping wound in heart/mind to last several years.

In a respect, I am convinced this resistance to male/female being peers, goes all the way back to a 'fall' ~ when someone/something deliberately put us at odds in their endeavor to hide our power from us.

Years ago a popular bumper sticker read, "The Goddess is back and She's p*****" ~ in my experience as a traveler, the message received has been, "The Goddess is back and She misses her husband."

[ulli]

Posted by 778 neighbour of some guy (here)

It was not until I was married for the third time that I discovered that not all men are the same.
But then I attributed the difference to cultural backgrounds.

Funny enough I found out exactly the same in my relationships and even funnier my ex girlfriend (black) said she would never date or fall in love with a man again because we were all basically cheating, not trustworthy, egocentric racist dicks, let alone a white guy, no friggin way, she tested me, teased me, tried to mess with my head to get her confirmation, I didn't give her jack sh!t in regards to that, took her by total surprise and voila a wonderful relationship bloomed up under the most unlikely circumstances,, what was very funny to me was the role pattern she was programmed with, this was never a problem btw, she was a woman and I am a man and that was just fine, I cannot count the times she CHASED me out of the kitchen( I like to cook because I like to eat), into the living room, she turned on the tv, handed me a beer, told me to stop looking surprised and just chill out and let me fix you dinner and tonight theres going to be another surprise for you, this was amazing and indeed cultural, but didn't have any issues what so ever in this, no tight buttcheeks, just the way it was and felt completely natural and satisfactory to both of us, even better was.. she was an accountant for a mayor firm, made serious money, didn't take sh!t from anyone ( she would fight you if you did and you would bleed too, funny as hell, not very enlightened but very funny), so........... when lines are defined without being pushed onto each other things can go very smooth too, without a hitch.

Yes, when both sides want harmony any relationship will work out.
Even those where one has lots of cosmic knowledge and the other acts mostly on instinct.
Like humans and their cats,...they know each others roles.

[ghostrider]

most men cant perceive there is strength in weakness , and honor in humility... the male ego is birthplace of all that's wrong with the current state of affairs of earth ... I tell men all the time, it's not I or you , it's us ... we stand on the same ground, need the same air, we live on the earth, why fight when we could work together and change the world for the better of all ??? it's up to us , nobody will do it for us, it's our responsibility ...

[ulli]

Posted by Another1 (here)
Your post is good to see here. I can tell you one thing for certain, both male and female 'experts' in this genre all over the internet have a tendency to respond with an energy of, "Who the hell are you?," when they see new ideas arrive with a youngster that may conflict with their 'authority'

I had not thought of the situation in these male/female terms too much until this week due to a post suggesting Alpha males should die and this one here you have started.

This I believe is a fact:

Ulli said - I do know that when anyone reaches a spiritual plateau of integrity dark entities take hold of those who are not quite there yet, and unbeknownst to them attempt to tear down the enlightened one.

As an observation from someone who still feels new here at Avalon:
It's common for me to have a seeming conversation inside with people met in a new place. I have no strict definition for this or care to discect it too much beyond my assertion that the heart channel is real.

This place as a 'group mind' has been welcoming to someone who is not necessarily in the current mainstream. There is more balance here than I am accustomed to.

As my first posts went up and the energies of various people began to seep through here, the 'conversation' inside was less aggressive than I'm used to and more about, "How can we help?" I was led to read the entire 48 page spread begat by Bill's post under Priority threads, the Ultimate Hypothesis.

Reading all of that thread helped me get a feel for how to better approach what I wanted to communicate. There were at least a 1/2 dozen times when I felt like the poster was someone I should meet but their profile in most every case was empty while many of the posters who I thought would be itched by my comments had full profiles to the point where I can just hit a Skype button to meet them?

Gripreaper wrote:

Men who are moving from the male dominated patriarchy towards the androgynous unity, are being ridiculed and marginalized, because the males as well as the females who support this old dialectic, don't want the status quo challenged.

My step out of the total male dominated reality was fought against well, in one case, by a powerful group that thought my belief in a Goddess, equal to their 'God', was silly. They even assigned a mate who thought so.

As part of our graduation we were directed to create a business card asserting 'In His Majesty's Service' ~ As a final 'standing my ground' statement, I had mine gold embossed asserting 'In Her Majesty's Service' ~ The result was a very well crafted multiple level attack that left a gaping wound in heart/mind to last several years.

In a respect, I am convinced this resistance to male/female being peers, goes all the way back to a 'fall' ~ when someone/something deliberately put us at odds in their endeavor to hide our power from us.

Years ago a popular bumper sticker read, "The Goddess is back and She's p*****" ~ in my experience as a traveler, the message received has been, "The Goddess is back and She misses her husband."

I once tried to fit in with a group of women who were all Goddess people, but it didn't work out. They thought I was programmed, not realizing how many more U turns I had made in my life than themselves, to escape all forms of programming. So I tried to find out what it was that made some people ok with the concept of a male godhead, while others were into females. Not speaking here of people who were still in their old paradigm, but hose who had dropped out ages ago.
And I found myself settling on the psychology answer, that in most cases childhood relationship with mother and father determined these attitudes towards a higher power. I finally settled on the idea that planets were the female egg, and meteors were the sperm shot by the cosmic male God. And that the real Creator of all was/ is an IT, androgynous being.

There were more items in your post I could respond to but this one struck me the most.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

the male ego is birthplace of all that's wrong with the current state of affairs of earth

I could not disagree more, seriously.

A HUMAN'S ego CAN be the birthplace of all things going wrong, I don't identify with mens ego if you state it as you did above, for that matter, how do you explain away the Hillary's, the momma Bushes, Marie Antoinettes, Winnie Mandela's and then some, by saying they follow the examples of men? Let us not rule out the ladies here eh, you know what they say right, behind every powerful man stands a powerful woman, this is not a one man or one woman show and not a simple topic. This is about the integrity and quality of thought and character, not sexes.

[Another1]

And that the real Creator of all was/ is an IT, androgynous being.

We reached the same conclusion.
If way up on a cloud I am an 'It'

Why/How we were split this way in our skinsuits is up for debate but,
that it (this split) is attempting to heal itself was my intended communication.

Thank you for this thread.

[ulli]

Posted by 778 neighbour of some guy (here)

the male ego is birthplace of all that's wrong with the current state of affairs of earth

I could not disagree more, seriously.

A HUMAN'S ego CAN be the birthplace of all things going wrong, I don't identify with mens ego if you state it as you did above, for that matter, how do you explain away the Hillary's, the momma Bushes, Marie Antoinettes, Winnie Mandela's and then some, by saying they follow the examples of men? Let us not rule out the ladies here eh, you know what they say right, behind every powerful man stands a powerful woman, this is not a one man or one woman job and not a simple topic. This about the integrity and quality of thought and character, not sexes.

The elite governments of the world are all armed to the teeth,
with unheard of technologies right now
constantly increasing their arsenals.
This has little to do with the female principle.

When female ego is out of control you might get a different form of imbalance ...
more of a smothering than explosive effect.

Not saying that such an imbalance couldn't also take the world to the brink of extinction,
but I can't remember any lives where I have lived through that scenario.....
so Im not to sure how that would play out.

[jagman]

I'm not really enlightened yet..I dont think. lol So I dont know if I should comment,
but what the hell i'm here. Ulli, I have great respect for you and flash. I value both
of your opinions has much has any male that's on the forum. I also enjoy this thread.
So please allow me to challenge the part about "male competitiveness" being a bad thing.
I am a alpha male leo who has competed my whole life in some fashion...

My father was a semi professional baseball player. When he retired he took up coaching.
When I was 8 years old he started coaching a team of 12 & 13 yearolds. He put me on his
team. Right in the middle of a big game my father put me in has pitcher. (A disaster in the making)
I remember being on the pitchers mound throwing ball after ball and when I did throw it over the
plate it was hit hard. The crowd was booing me and I started to cry but my father refused to take
me out. 15 runs were scored against me that day before I finally got the 3 outs.

I think I cried myself to sleep that night. Something else also happened that night. I told myself
that I would practice everyday so that would never happen again. By the time I was 16 years old
I had become a great athlete and a strong person.

[onawah]

The Bodhisattva is just such a one as you describe here, johnf:

Posted by johnf (here)
I think that in a person who is approaching the point where they have a real ability to help others move to their next threshold of awareness,
in the old paradigm, we called that a teacher or guide, the subtle programming that is left has the purpose of putting things in terms and examples that will trigger a breakthrough in the listener.jf

We cannot relate to other human beings unless we can retain some of what makes us human, even as we aspire to "enlightenment" --whatever that term may mean for us, and I think the meaning of that word changes greatly as we grow...

I was watching this TED talk earlier today

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=qu7ZpWecIS8

At the risk of unfairly making an example of this man, I will say that I was struck by a couple of things that had little to do with the data he was sharing.

At one point, he was talking about LOL Cats, as a phenomena of the internet community that demonstrates a kind of free sharing, and later in the talk, he disparagingly equates LOL Cats --which he describes as "throwaway" in value --with the erotic novels that resulted when the printing press was first making its appearance.

(You will have to watch the video to understand the full context of these remarks.)

What struck me was the thinly veiled contempt that he displayed when speaking of two demonstrations of humankind's affinity for humor and eroticism, two of the ways in which we are most able to experience our humanness that allows us to release some of the stress and other forms of negative energy that tend to be generated by our existence in this material reality.

Folly (as opposed to seriousness, which is thought of as being more of a male attribute) our kinship to the animal kingdom, and eroticism (usually typified as a more feminine -and untrustworthy-characteristic) are portrayed as trivial and slightly disgusting by this man.
And he never cracks a smile during the whole talk.

While the theme of his talk that has to do with building community through generosity and freely sharing, is interesting and admirable, it bothered me that so much of what I think is wonderful about humankind in this talk was being downgraded by this man to something less than worthy--our ability to laugh at ourselves and our natural ability to enjoy and bond via our material bodies.

And that seems to be how humanity in many cultures has gone about handling the erotic and the humorous aspects of our nature- through suppression, and by cheapening and ridiculing.

That is typical of patriarchy, and is no doubt why the male ego is so surprisingly fragile, especially about things that are, by the definitions that patriarchy has imposed upon them, so little worthy of consideration.
(This may have to do with something akin to "womb envy", I suppose.)

But I think we are never able to be fully human unless we can embrace those aspects of ourselves as well, and to integrate them into our definitions of what is sacred.
Our hearts have to evolve along with our heads, or we will be forever out of balance.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

The elite governments of the world are all armed to the teeth,
with unheard of technologies right now
constantly increasing their arsenals.
This has little to do with the female principle.

True, also perhaps women should encourage their sons NOT to join armies.

When female ego is out of control you might get a different form of imbalance ...
more of a smothering than explosive effect

Ok also true, but I get the impression you mean smothering out of love, love for and of what is a good question, because they can, because they want, because they have to, I see woman and girls from all ages who have some bad mean streaks in them ( not necessarily caused by men btw), just character or peer pressure, not all ladies are angels and they also do not behave like them, just like men.

Not defending men here or picking on the ladies, just trying to make a point.

BTW I do think God or whatever you might want to call it is a female energy.

[ulli]

Posted by johnf (here)

Posted by ulli (here)

Posted by T Smith (here)
Fascinating observations, Ulli. Perhaps those men from whom you've observed this dynamic aren't so enlightened after all. This type of social behavior sounds uniquely human (in the mammalian sense) to me.

To my experience enlightenment only means arriving at a new level in the building.
Once the novelty factor has worn off one is back to one's old tendencies, albeit with a fresh set of programs.

I like that description, yet I strongly believe in dropping the word entirely.
It is nearly impossible to use a word anyway without turning it into an object in ones mind.
If the speaker can do this, this doesn't ensure that the listener won't.
Your statement above Ulli points out that there are subtle levels to this object, and its attached programs.

The use of the word in the alternative community has gotten rather far from it's sources.
It seems to get attached to the whole conspiracy awareness thing, and that is something that I just don't hear from the
convincing non duality types.

The "enlightened" people whom I find the most convincing, stress that they are still deepening and refining the state.
I think that the challenge of occupying a body is often grossly underestimated.
I agree with Dr. Eben Alexander (link to interview(I didn't want to put this in as a video: https://youtube.com/watch?v=QOSb3G53HsA ), when he describes the whole purpose of the brain as an awareness reduction valve.
I think that in a person who is approaching the point where they have a real ability to help others move to their next threshold of awareness,
in the old paradigm, we called that a teacher or guide, the subtle programming that is left has the purpose of putting things in terms and examples that will trigger a breakthrough in the listener.

The male ego programs, if seen as spiritual fulcrums for those around the person exhibiting them can be doorways to awareness for them.
It is up to the male exhibiting this behavior, to look at their own programs, or not.
There is freedom for those that look at their own reactions and programs, no matter what brings them into action.

jf

The brain as an 'Awareness reduction valve' ...
Hmm..

One could also call the brain "a priority establisher....

In any case, it is a delicate and useful tool and so long as people see it as just a tool their identity is intact...

the problem starts when people believe the identity imagery that their brain throws out is their real Self.

And that could even be male or female role playing.

Self image can hold one back from attaining true identity.

In my view it is strongly linked with ego.

[ulli]

Posted by 778 neighbour of some guy (here)

The elite governments of the world are all armed to the teeth,
with unheard of technologies right now
constantly increasing their arsenals.
This has little to do with the female principle.

True, also perhaps women should encourage their sons NOT to join armies.

When female ego is out of control you might get a different form of imbalance ...
more of a smothering than explosive effect

Ok also true, but I get the impression you mean smothering out of love, love for and of what is a good question, because they can, because they want, because they have to, I see woman and girls from all ages who have some bad mean streaks in them ( not necessarily caused by men btw), just character or peer pressure, not all ladies are angels and they also do not behave like them, just like men.

Not defending men here or picking on the ladies, just trying to make a point.

BTW I do think God or whatever you might want to call it is a female energy.

I know what you are saying about the mean streak in some women.
But this to me is a symptom of a sick society that has reached the outer limits of development.
A kind of perversity, if you will.
Heavy programming with memes that develop self-protective attitudes.
Many girls want to be like boys, and are snappy and aggressive.
It is also one of the reasons why many males opt for a gay life,
as far removed from women as possible.

About the Creator God being male, or female, or neutral, or not being at all..
that could make an interesting poll for Avalonians

[ulli]

Posted by jagman (here)
I'm not really enlightened yet..I dont think. lol So I dont know if I should comment,
but what the hell i'm here. Ulli, I have great respect for you and flash. I value both
of your opinions has much has any male that's on the forum. I also enjoy this thread.
So please allow me to challenge the part about "male competitiveness" being a bad thing.
I am a alpha male leo who has competed my whole life in some fashion...

My father was a semi professional baseball player. When he retired he took up coaching.
When I was 8 years old he started coaching a team of 12 & 13 yearolds. He put me on his
team. Right in the middle of a big game my father put me in has pitcher. (A disaster in the making)
I remember being on the pitchers mound throwing ball after ball and when I did throw it over the
plate it was hit hard. The crowd was booing me and I started to cry but my father refused to take
me out. 15 runs were scored against me that day before I finally got the 3 outs.

I think I cried myself to sleep that night. Something else also happened that night. I told myself
that I would practice everyday so that would never happen again. By the time I was 16 years old
I had become a great athlete and a strong person.

Wow, what a story. I'm glad you shared that, Jagman. But doesn't it partly make my point...about the intensity of the programming...being passed from one generation to the next?
I learnt a bit about the Chinese preparing their gymnasts for the Olympics, about ground training in the military,
about my own determination to make money early in life to prove to my dad, whom I loved, that he would never have to worry about financially supporting me.
I also know what goes on in hospitals, during internships, when young doctors are forced to stay awake for 36 hours without a nap...a professional custom that has been practiced for generations and all those who survived that ordeal can now insist that just because they went through it the next generation of doctors must, too.

But the real value of pushing another to their ultimate physical limit....what is it?
To create self esteem in a person?

[Justintime]

Thank you Ulli for posting this thread as it gives me a chance to share my own personal failures at creating or joining brotherhoods throughout my lifetime. But, first let me start by saying as a man who sometimes thinks incredibly deely that even though I discover and rediscover profound truths and possibilities I don't think I'll ever get over my hardwiring of being competitive. I'm the third child in an ultra competive family, where it felt( though it wasn't the case) it felt like my worth was based on how I performed academically, athletically and social-emotinally compared to my older brother and sister. Now, I sometimes surpassed my sister, but never outshined my older brother. And still don't, I'm a teacher and he's a principal
Anyways, competition between males is a completely insane thing. As I matured physically, my brothers five years older than me, I started to compete with him and eventually beat him in one on one basketball games. In our twenty's these games would get so heated that they would end in blood. An elbow here and there during the game would lead to fists after the game. Needless to say in our thirty's we no longer play.

Ill add more to this in a bit, I've got to go, but let me end by saying that I haven't been able to find a group of quote on quote brothers that hasn't been fabricated and fake, but would enjoy being able to form those bonds here at PA and think given the commonalities of interests on this website we all should be able to become closer here with people than say people at our work or neighbors or even some of our friends who just aren't into this sort of thing)

[northstar]

This discussion is getting interesting. It strikes me that some clarification of terminology might be useful at this point.

Patriarchy

Patriarchy (rule by fathers) is a social system in which the male is the primary authority figure central to social organization and the central roles of political leadership, moral authority, and control of property, and where fathers hold authority over women and children. It implies the institutions of male rule and privilege, and entails female subordination. Many patriarchal societies are also patrilineal, meaning that property and title are inherited by the male lineage. The female equivalent is matriarchy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy

Misogyny

Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.[1][2] Misogyny has been characterised as a prominent feature of the mythologies of the ancient world as well as various religions. In addition, many influential Western philosophers have been described as misogynistic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

Kyriarchy

Kyriarchy ("rule by a lord") is a social system or set of connecting social systems built around domination, oppression, and submission. The word itself is a neologism coined by Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza to describe interconnected, interacting, and self-extending systems of domination and submission, in which a single individual might be oppressed in some relationships and privileged in others. It is an intersectional extension of the idea of patriarchy beyond gender. Kyriarchy encompasses sexism, racism, economic injustice, and other forms of dominating hierarchy in which the subordination of one person or group to another is internalized and institutionalized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy

In my opinion the terminology is important because there is a vast literature of research and writing on just what we are discussing here. It might help to connect and ground our personal stories, thoughts and opinions with some of that theory.

I find Kyriarchy especially interesting. The developer of that term is a radical feminist who claims that we are living in a post-patriarchy world and we must broaden our notions of domination and oppression to include not just gender but race, economic class and others.

I am an old-fashioned feminist but when I came across this concept of "Kyriarchy" it rang some bells for me.

[ulli]

Posted by Justintime (here)
Thank you Ulli for posting this thread as it gives me a chance to share my own personal failures at creating or joining brotherhoods throughout my lifetime. But, first let me start by saying as a man who sometimes thinks incredibly deely that even though I discover and rediscover profound truths and possibilities I don't think I'll ever get over my hardwiring of being competitive. I'm the third child in an ultra competive family, where it felt( though it wasn't the case) it felt like my worth was based on how I performed academically, athletically and social-emotinally compared to my older brother and sister. Now, I sometimes surpassed my sister, but never outshined my older brother. And still don't, I'm a teacher and he's a principal
Anyways, competition between males is a completely insane thing. As I matured physically, my brothers five years older than me, I started to compete with him and eventually beat him in one on one basketball games. In our twenty's these games would get so heated that they would end in blood. An elbow here and there during the game would lead to fists after the game. Needless to say in our thirty's we no longer play.

(Ill add more to this in a bit, I've got to go, but let me end by saying that I haven't been able to find a group of quote on quote brothers that hasn't been fabricated and fake, but would enjoy being able to form those bonds here at PA and think given the commonalities of interests on this website we all should be able to become closer here with people than say people at our work or neighbors or even some of our friends who just aren't Ito this sort of thing)

Freedom and enlightenment happen when something deep within is let go of.
And that is usually a program that has trapped us in family patterns and that can create these competitive attitudes.

And we can erase it with a single step...I believe this is possible.
Asking oneself the question "what is served by this?" might be enough.

I realized already in my teens that I had to get out of my country, away from my family,
because my sanity would depend on it.
Germany in the 1960s was too confusing for me...too many extremes...fascism, communism, capitalism.
Lots of confused and war-damaged elders.

I would now recommend any young person to travel overseas,
to see how different cultures operate.
Find friends online and invite one another to visit...
it is the best way to see one's own programming and make an objective evaluation...
free from all national or patriotic bias and family indoctrination.