The Sins of the Fathers

[mosquito]

I’ve been thinking about writing this for a few days now, and the following 2 threads have spurred me into action (a rare event indeed !):

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...ing-the-shadow

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...Bright-Garlick

I want to talk about “the sins of the fathers” and our inherited karma, if that’s the way you want to think of it.

To start with, I don’t much like the notion that I should be held responsible by some angry deity for the shortcomings of my forebears. The whole idea seems ludicrous to me. Nor do I subscribe to the idea of a collective guilt-trip, that is absolutely NOT what this thread is about. So what is it about ?

Last week I watched a video made by the people I went to the Amazon with in 1996. It documents our journey to the Santo Daime community in Brazil, and our experiences there. I recalled the extensive purging I went through, and got to thinking about all my other Ayahuasca experiences. All in all, I’ve taken Ayahuasca 32 times, and without exception, the experience has been one of purging. Heavy purging. I could never fathom why. I’m basically a nice person, never done anything harmful to anyone. Yet I purge and purge and purge. I’ve had food poisoning, I know what an emptying digestive system feels like. The Ayahuasca was always something more, from outside my digestive tract. (That will only make sense to you if you’ve had the same experience). My confusion was further compounded by the fact that many friends and acquaintances, who have not all been goody-goodies, get nothing but unconditional love in their sessions. What the hell is going on here ? I remember one session, with 2 Shipibo shamans, and I could hear them chatting while I was in the toilet … “What’s happening ? His spirit is clean”. If THEY, the experts were confused, imagine how I felt.

So, after watching the video, I thought about all my experiences, and remembered one of the key visions I had in the purging phases of every session, which was of me travelling along my DNA. And then it dawned on me …. Some of this, not necessarily all of it, comes from the past. Call it ancestral, call it past-life, whatever.
The next trigger was reading Wade Frazier’s excellent essay on Columbus:

http://www.ahealedplanet.net/columbus.htm

… the atrocities committed by our ancestors were horrifying. And every one of us has this in our ancestry, without exception. So the penny dropped – I’ve been clearing out my history, personal and transpersonal. The sh*t coming out of my body, far too voluminous to be connected to my food intake, was coming from my ancestral DNA. The “sins of the fathers” are visited on us NOT by a god, but by our DNA and the spiritual equivalent thereof.

My current understanding is that this is like a collective shadow. We bury our national and family history in tales of heroism and glory. We find all manner of means to justify what was done, not necessarily out of any evil intent, but through a lack of true awareness. I reiterate – this is NOT about us having a collective guilt trip, it’s about us healing.

Shamanic traditions around the world emphasize that the healing we do is not only for ourselves, but for our families and our ancestors. And that’s one of the things we are here to do.

Things have been swept under the metaphorical carpet for far too long, let’s NOT leave them there while we have another drink, let’s lift the carpet, have a good look at what’s there, and clean it out, for ourselves, our ancestors and, importantly … those yet to come.

[naste.de.lumina]

Very good question friend.
How can we have answers if we are not aware of the question?
I have no answer to this, but now I have a clue to be followed.

[raregem]

Mariposafe said, " I thought about all my experiences, and remembered one of the key visions I had in the purging phases of every session, which was of me travelling along my DNA. And then it dawned on me …. Some of this, not necessarily all of it, comes from the past. Call it ancestral, call it past-life, whatever. "


I had seen a video ( I do not recall specifics, sorry ) that related blood, DNA and Spirit as one element. I remember this being an idea I had not heard before. I didn't really comprehend the whole concept. I still cannot voice a coherent thought. Just seems like this is important to understand.

[Spiral of Light]

Posted by raregem (here)
I had seen a video ( I do not recall specifics, sorry ) that related blood, DNA and Spirit as one element. I remember this being an idea I had not heard before. I didn't really comprehend the whole concept. I still cannot voice a coherent thought. Just seems like this is important to understand.

This line of thinking reminds me of a scripture in Leviticus that says something like: 'the soul (or life) of the flesh is in the blood'.

We inherit physical qualities through our bloodlines. Makes sense to rationalize that we also inherit other attributes and tendencies from our ancestors, too.

Doesn't seem fair though, does it?

[mosquito]

Posted by Spiral of Light (here)

Doesn't seem fair though, does it?

Indeed not ! But my take is that if we are conscious of it, and treat it as an opportunity, a GIFT, then its' unfairness becomes irrelevant.

Thanks for the responses so far.

[Milneman]

Eh, here's my two cents worth.

I spent a lot of time in my 20's with this kind of thing. Maybe...just maybe...someone out there is saying....lay off the Ayahuasca.

I won't discount the spiritual experience from Ayahuasca, Peyote, or anything else...you're working with it in what my teacher back then used to call "a good way'. It might be karma biting you in the ass, I won't argue it's possible. But there's also a really good possibility your spirit helpers are saying....oy....this is clouding the line between you n' us....

How's that jive?

[mosquito]

Yup. I've thought about that too !

What I wanted to express with this thread though, assisted by my experiences, is that like it or not, we are carrying the burdens of our ancestors. We don't just inherit blue eyes and long legs, we inherit diseases, mental patterns, and what I'm positing here - karma.

Thanks for your input.

[Delight]

Posted by mariposafe (here)
Shamanic traditions around the world emphasize that the healing we do is not only for ourselves, but for our families and our ancestors. And that’s one of the things we are here to do.

I notice that you have a deep connection to the mesoamerican and south american lineages. I feel I do also though I have never been there.

You mentioned purging. I have been in ceremony with sacred plants including mushrooms, cactus and ayahausca and I never purged. This made me feel I was missing something. Now I realize we each create a rapport with the medicine that is singular and as you say for our lineage......

The reason we are doing this NOW is that we are going to a new ERA. This time we are the host of "catyclysmic" elements. This is what I know to be true.

I hope it's OK to share here a strange story. I watched a video once by Chris Everard: Alien Kabbalah. It was talking about energy and the power of blood and sacrifice.

At the end of it (fairly lengthy), I developed the most intense abdominal pain I ever felt. I spent all night either purging or lying sweating and in terrible pain on the floor of the bathroom. It was almost frightening in intensity.

At daybreak, I vomited up something that was like a capsule. As soon as I vomited that piece of something (and I knew to leave it unexamined), all the pain and the purge was over literally day from night. I was very in touch with a knowledge that my own ancestry had done these "crimes".

The video evoked even before the purge the sense that these horrors were mine. This was a very weird experience and I believe I dredged up something of my own/ my lineage to expel.

I believe that we can heal the past (recapitulation) and that I love the ancient wisdom traditions that are popularized by words like Toltec. You must have offered a great gift to your past.

What I really believe is that the expression you used in the OP is really an inversion or misrepresentation of a truth...kind of like what happened to the ancients of mesoamerica IMO when people forgot the truth.

I found a quote from http://www.laurelhovde.com/Design/mayan_heart.html. Thanks for your post.

The Pyramid of Fire

In 1961 the Lost Aztec Codex, Pyramid of Fire or Codex Matz-Ayauhtla, was acquired by beat poet Marty Matz from a Mazatec Indian shaman who was a keeper of the ancient wisdom.

Matz, enchanted and enthralled with Mexico, was seeking what he called Paititi (immortality). Don Daniel, the Mazatec shaman, had been waiting for him. He initiated Matz and revealed the ancient wisdom to him.

Pyramid of Fire,
The Lost Aztec Codex,
Spiritual Ascent at the End of Time: from page 11 of 13

There is an occult energy in the heart that comes from Tonatiuh, the Sun, and if man releases it, returning it consciously to the Sun, he becomes immortal. But to liberate this energy, sacrifice is necessary.

Man must sacrifice the desires and habits that he adores, sacrifice them in himself and turn the knife against the enemy that he carries within himself that keeps his heart a prisoner.

In recent times men still remembered these words, but they have now forgotten their significance. They have made enemies of other men to sacrifice them and tear out their hearts believing such offerings would propitiate Tonatiuh. Such is their degeneration,such is their superstition.

When fear unites with knowledge, terrible things are done.

It is the self within ourselves that we have to sacrifice. It is our own heart that has to be torn out of the false being and offered to the light.

May Xiuhtecuhtli, Lord of Fire, burn my false being,

May Itzli, Obsidian Knife liberate my heart.

(IMO Tonatiuh is our own light)


FYI more of the whole codex is on this page http://www.human-resonance.org/maya.html

From 1:11:35 the story of the translation of "the spiritual ascent at the end of time" Pyramid of Fire codex is described

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=kqD2FyWz4Fw

[/YOUTUBE]

[mosquito]

Excellent, thank you so much for your insight and for sharing that powerful experience.

[GreenGuy]

Posted by mariposafe (here)
...I don’t much like the notion that I should be held responsible by some angry deity for the shortcomings of my forebears.

The angry deity notion has been awfully useful to power trippers for a few thousands of years! I don't think that's the reality of the situation, though. We have a hard time understanding that thoughts are things as much as actions, and they create ripples that spread through spacetime. They do affect many others in ways we neither perceive nor intend. At the same time we are able to manifest our own reality and free ourselves. It's hard for most folks to understand that our physical surroundings represent only a narrow slice of the reality we live in. We are spirit first and foremost, and what we call love is the true ground of all that exists. We ignore that not just at our own peril but at the peril of everyone else who lives or shall live. I am you. You are me.

[raregem]

I have trouble placing the ONE of all with the "being responsible for our ancestors. Our ancestors would be direct blood line. How do the two ( All is ONE and bloodline) become one when it is separated as ONE and bloodline? Does this make sense?

[Flash]

Posted by mariposafe (here)
Yup. I've thought about that too !

What I wanted to express with this thread though, assisted by my experiences, is that like it or not, we are carrying the burdens of our ancestors. We don't just inherit blue eyes and long legs, we inherit diseases, mental patterns, and what I'm positing here - karma.

Thanks for your input.

i do think that we come into this world and "chose" our parents, and therefore our ancestors, based on vibrational qualities our soul has. In fact, some of us may even be thrown into some types of family because it cannot be otherwise, this is how their soul and karma vibrates. So yes, based on this, we carry our ancestors and much of the cleaning we have to do is theirs. As we vibrate the same, it is our as well.

In other words, karma is a big cauldron of specific soups (bad and good deeds). Whomever has affinity with that kind of soup and can throw some flavours to it will work with this specific soup, making it tastier or less tasty. And everyone else having affinity with the new flavour will be attracted to it and live a diffferent karma with it. And we all share in the resolution of the best flavours and most nutritive soup to be built. Karma is not always that specific to a soul. It becomes more and more specific when the soul reach a very developed level. In this latter case, a choice to clean the cauldron before making a new more personal soup may be what is happening.

I don't know if I am clear in my words or not, it seems confusing to me in words (not in pictures).

[mosquito]

Perfectly clear Flash, and that's a nice analogy too, the soup and cauldron.