The Nature of Desire

[Freed Fox]

I have seen several people, as well as wider systems of beliefs, decry 'desire' as something ultimately negative or at least sub-optimal; something to be avoided or overcome. I want to open this up to discussion with all of you, to seek a greater understanding in this.

First of all, there is a distinction which I believe firmly exists but is all too often overlooked when discussing the subject of desire; that of pure desire and that of - shall we say - 'tainted' desire. The latter would be what I typically consider to be referred to in a negative sense, and would include desires which seek to overpower, disempower, subjugate, objectify, or otherwise harm someone else. In other words, selfish desire; the realm of dominance and violation.

On the other hand, there is what I would consider 'pure desire'. I do believe this can encapsulate romantic, sexual love and furthermore I do not believe there to be anything at all that is wrong with feeling or pursuing such a thing. Some regard it as deviant, or otherwise somehow unenlightened; a diversion from the strictly spiritual path, but I simply don't see why this would have to be, necessarily. If something is truly consensual, mutual, and harmless to all of the individuals involved, then how can it possibly be wrong?

[Ellisa]

Desire is really not a problem unless it becomes in any way compulsory.

[GreenGuy]

I believe desire, or perhaps I should say yearning, is a natural condition of living as a sovereign integral, to use the Wingmakers' term. Understanding changes the nature of desire - the enlightened person wishes for different things than a sleeper. It probably decreases the number of things we years for as well, as we come to accept ourselves as we are. There is nothing wrong with desire itself, but the things we want affect us at every level. The old saying is very wise: be careful what you wish for!

[GarethBKK]

Not sure I've come across the 'desire is negative and to be avoided' cry. Rather, it is common for spiritual people to suggest observing desire for what it is as it arises. For arise it will, as GreenGuy suggests above. If we can observe the desire and recognise it as such, we can let go of the attachment to it and not suffer if the desire is not met. The approach is not to forcefully suppress desire but allow it to arise. Then, recognise it as desire and do not be dependent on the outcome. It's the uncertainty that keeps the game of life exciting - a quantum conundrum.

[Milneman]

Wild nights--wild nights!
Were I with thee
Wild nights should be
our luxury!

Futile--the winds--
To a Heart in port--
Done with the Compass--
Done with the Chart!

Rowing in Eden--
Ah--the Sea!
Might I but moor--tonight--
In thee!

[Joseph McAree]

Hi Freed Fox,

My take on desire is one of shared energies, I will only look at the positive side of desire in this response, my thoughts are that if you add love to the statement it becomes something totally different in the sexual sense, as long as it consensual and as it will be two people sharing there love I see no problem with this, it could be for a short time or could end up be for a very long time it does not matter at this stage.

Some times the desire between two people is very extreme and can end up extremely passionate, as the two high level of energies come together.
Then sometimes the desire is kind of one sided and he or she needs to act on there feeling, thus hoping that they impress the person and the energy they have given out will be returned in the right way, this could again be romantic or sexual or just be for there friendship.

Love is the energy we can share, easily, that is how I have always seen it, felt it , this is why when sharing great moments of intense caring and loving the energy levels of those involved are increased dramatically, think about the first time you fell in love, or just had really strong feelings about someone, think back on how you felt about your energy levels , you could go on for ever and never needed to sleep and did not want it to end.

There is nothing wrong with desire in a positive sense, hope you find what you are looking for.

Kindest regards,
Joe

[GreenGuy]

The OP mentioned sexual desire as a prime example. I like Joe's response above, and perhaps an example from my own life will clarify how I think desire should operate in our lives...

I am 63 and married. My wife, who I love dearly, is disabled and is not capable of fulfilling my physical desires. I don't hold this against her although it's frustrating. I am also good friends with an attractive woman who is about 10 years younger than I am. I have been strongly attracted to her since we met a few years ago, but this feeling is not mutual. Now, the choice is mine: I could let my lust corrupt our relationship, or I could strive to detach from it and convert it into what Tolstoy would call a "spiritual friendship." While it isn't always easy, I have steadfastly chosen the latter. This woman and I remain close friends, my marriage remains unsullied, and I am stronger for it. There is nothing wrong with desire, it's natural. It's our actions that get us into trouble.

[Shabd_Mystic]

Many great mystics have said that desire is the root of all suffering and I have to agree (though I am not a "great" mystic, lol).

As for lust, or sexual desire, that is very true. Although sex can be great, the longing for it causes MUCH grief. When there is no desire, there can be no disappointment whether it be a desire for sex, fame, a new Porche or anything else. It's very easy to be celibate if there is no desire. It is next to impossible if you are fighting desire, as many cases such as Catholic priests have shown.

I always compare it to "asparagus." I have no desire for asparagus so if a doctor told me I could never have any I wouldn't care. If there is no desire there can be no disappointment.

[Freed Fox]

What of desire for that which cannot be experienced here on Earth?

I can see the ties this has to disappointment, and unhappiness. However, I think I would rather deal with these feelings than settle for a lie. That is, a lie to my spirit, a lie to my very soul and essence.

A feeling that life keeps handing you lemons, but you can't stand the taste of lemonade.

Don't mistake this as bemoaning my fate. I do believe this is all for a reason. Something like a test, a lesson... or community service perhaps?

I hope I get the job done.

[Shabd_Mystic]

Interesting:

Gopi Krishna Talks About Sex And Love

[Bright Garlick]

Great post freed fox. Desire keeps us alive. Without it we're dead. But what is needed is to understand how our desires work. There can be healthy and unhealthy desires. Desires lead to craving, grasping, attachment/aversion and suffering.

It is useful to do an audit on our desires. Break them up into categories, find specific desires, decide if they are healthy or unhealthy, what is their frequency, what is their origin and what keeps them going and what impact do they have on our life.

Understanding desire is one of the most powerful ways to transform a human life.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=z8rQ575DWD8

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Regarding sexual desire - does it arise from the mind or the body. Desire from the mind comes as fantasy and obsession and leads to greater suffering.

[GreenGuy]

Posted by Shabd_Mystic (here)
Interesting:

Gopi Krishna Talks About Sex And Love

Yes, interesting. I think there is a dimension to sex that is rarely discussed, especially in our society. The aspects of sex that receive the most attention are procreation and pleasure. Not much is said regarding its spiritual aspects.

I don't suppose I've ever been much of a stud but in my younger years I was surely an energetic little goat. I had my share of sexual adventures, and I committed my share of sins. But I was always capable of recognizing a spiritual side of sex that, as I've gotten older, has come to represent one of its most important attributes. When a couple makes love they mix more than bodily fluids. There is a part of their spiritual essence that mingles as well, whether they recognize it or not. I believe this is one of the main reasons that very promiscuous persons often feel a dissatisfaction and cognitive dissonance with relation to sex. When the spiritual side of sex is recognized, the attitude changes. I am not talking about things like adultery or promiscuity as much as the opportunity for people to experience something larger than themselves. Sex creates synergy.

[Freed Fox]

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone.

Posted by Bright Garlick (here)
Desire from the mind comes as fantasy and obsession and leads to greater suffering.

What about from the heart? From the soul?

I know what I desire, deep within, and it is not of this Earth. It was not a desire given to me by any implant, or abduction, or whatever the hell some here or elsewhere might ascribe it to. I would rather die than betray what my heart truly wants.

Believe me, I've been grappling with this for some time. It may not be a preferable position to be in, but it is the truth; my truth.

[Shabd_Mystic]

Posted by Bright Garlick (here)
Desire keeps us alive. Without it we're dead.

I am glad that's not true, lol.

[Karezza]

Posted by Shabd_Mystic (here)
Many great mystics have said that desire is the root of all suffering and I have to agree (though I am not a "great" mystic, lol)...

The 'wider systems of beliefs, (that) decry desire' as you initially mentioned Freed Fox, for some those systems stem from the understanding that a body is up held by desire. Giving reason to why the mystics; Shabd_Mystic speaks of, state 'that desire is the root of all suffering'.

Posted by Freed Fox (here)
...'pure desire'. I do believe this can encapsulate romantic, sexual love and furthermore I do not believe there to be anything at all that is wrong with feeling or pursuing such a thing. Some regard it as deviant, or otherwise somehow unenlightened; a diversion from the strictly spiritual path, but I simply don't see why this would have to be, necessarily. If something is truly consensual, mutual, and harmless to all of the individuals involved, then how can it possibly be wrong?

Nothing at all seems wrong with the 'pure desire' you speak of, more so when it is consensual. It is a life choice of an individual. People respect and accept that. Relationships are useful learning mirrors. How does one make sure that this interest is/ remains love and not sensually blinding--? Unattachment.

Posted by GreenGuy (here)
...The aspects of sex that receive the most attention are procreation and pleasure. Not much is said regarding its spiritual aspects...

True. In loving sexual intercourse it would be nice to recognise the balanced energies of male and female in harmony (perhaps this has already been covered in the Orgasms thread). If a concept is unfitting, follow your heart without fear.

Posted by Extracts from Autobiography of a Yogi
"When man's desire to live is severely shaken by disease or other causes, death arrives, the heavy overcoat of the flesh is temporarily shed. The soul, however, remains encased in the astral and causal bodies...Experiencing astral death in due time, a being thus passes from the consciousness of astral birth and death to that of physical birth and death. These recurrent cycles of astral and physical encasement are the ineluctable destiny of all unenlightened beings...The adhesive force by which all three bodies are held together is desire. The power of unfulfilled desires is the root of all man's slavery. Physical desires are rooted in egotism and sense pleasures...When desirelessness is attained through wisdom, its power disintegrates the two remaining vessels."

[AutumnW]

Desire for what is the question. I guess over-arching desire, that blinds. An obsessive narrow-angle focus on something that is only obtained at the expense of another person, moral values, principles. I have an intense desire for chocolate, but I don't think I'd kill for it. Then again, Godiva's....hmmm...well, I hope I'm never put to that particular test.

Desire in the form of sexual attraction, lust etc.. is problematic. It feels a whole lot like mental illness, a delusion, a manic goofball hobby...but a kind of pleasant one. There is a masked dance that goes on during the courtship ritual that's fun but should never be mistaken for 'love'. It's often the polar opposite. There are people who become addicted to 'falling in love.' It's probably not a lot healthier than snorting coke.

But desiring friendship and healthy romantic attachment seems healthy to me. When Buddhists state that the most perfect state is one of complete detachment, it puts me off. Doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun. Too lacking in spontaneity, too. Always checking yourself to make sure you have no attachments and no desire? Bummer.

But detaching from material possessions, reducing desire for objects of status and 'toys'. That's a wonderful idea.

[Shabd_Mystic]

Just a few quotes about this subject from Sant Mat masters so you can see where they stand on the subject:

"One who desires nothing is the king of kings."

~ Hazur Maharaj

"I cannot lay adequate stress on living a pure moral life. High moral character is most essential for spiritual progress. Nam (Shabd, spiritual sound) and Kam (lust) cannot exist together. They are as antagonistic to each other as light is to darkness. Where there is Kam, Nam does not enter. And when Nam comes, Kam vanishes. A Satsangi (Sant Mat practitioner) should be an example to the world. His eyes should radiate purity around and a spiritual fragrance should issue forth from his body. Avoid the life of sensual pleasures and turn out desire for lust from your heart. A life of virtue, peace and contentment is possible only when you rise above the nine doors of the body. To indulge in sex pleasures and expect to enter the Kingdom of Heaven is sheer mockery. For such a one that door will never open."

~ Charan Singh

"This religion will not benefit those, nor will they understand it, who are imbued with worldly desires, honour and reputation."

~ Rai Saligram

"For, in the scriptures it has been repeatedly stated, So long as the mind and passions are not subdued, knowledge of the real essence, that is, the Creator cannot be acquired. And subjugation of the mind and passions is not possible without Yogic practice. Therefore, the knowledge acquired otherwise than by the practices of Yoga is only theoretical. Any educated man can say and understand this. It does not connote any superiority nor that the mind and desires have been vanquished."

~ Swami Ji

"The mind keeps wandering; but when it is in pain, it does not go anywhere. It does not wish for any worldly, sensual, or wicked desires."

~ Jaimal Singh

"If you desire to maintain yourself at a higher level of awareness, you must abjure lust. Lust blinds the inner eye, screens from our sight the refulgence of heaven and plugs our ears against the inner Music."

~ Rumi

"Cravings and desires
Lead to disease and hellflres.
The Time's sly Archer draws his bow,
And in a moment lays you low."

~ Nanak

"Everyone is not fit for admission in Sant Mat. Those who occupy themselves with the pleasures of the senses and have no real desire for communion with the Creator or for the redemption of their souls, are incapable of understanding its principles."

~ Swami Ji

"If ome one succeeds in securimg the pleasure of the guru, he will satisfy the real desire of the soul, and all other desires will be wiped out."

~ Hazur Maharaj


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AND a couple of quotes from outside Sant Mat:
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“There are two ways to get enough. One is to continue to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less."

~ G.K. Chesterton

"Manifest plainness,
Embrace simplicity,
Reduce selfishness,
Have few desires."

~ Lao Tzu

[Shabd_Mystic]

Here's a good article that discusses desire from a Buddhist perspective:

Renunciation is the engine for most of Buddhism

Gotama Buddha lays it on the line in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (supposedly his first teaching after enlightenment):

The cause of suffering: craving produces rebirth, accompanied by delight and lust, finding fresh delight—now here, and now there—craving for sense pleasure and for existence…
The cessation of suffering: renouncing and ending that craving.

These are the Second and Third Noble Truths.

[Shabd_Mystic]

More from that article:

Mahayana teaches the same, for instance in the Shurangama Sutra 6:14:

When you teach people to meditate, they must first of all sever the mind of lust. This is the first clear and unalterable instruction on purity given by all the Buddhas. Any explanation counter to it is the teaching of Papiyan [the Devil].

[DeDukshyn]

Free will is useless without desire. Why the hell would we have one without the other? I think don Miguel Ruiz put it best on the topic; he indicated that desire is neither good nor bad, but it's results based on programmed reasoning that might be not what we want. For example, if a married woman goes to the store and sees a guy there that she finds herself heatedly attracted to, there's nothing wrong with that. In fact it can be somewhat enjoyable in itself. Now she can choose to let the moment go when its presence has past, or she could carry it over into a new moment from the past.

From there she might think about that desire, perhaps over and over, making it stronger and stronger, although this time it isn't even a real desire - it is a facsimile, stolen from the present moment that has passed. Once it gets very strong, she may feel intense guilt about this - this is not good for her or her relationship. Or she may then act on that desire, breaking her husbands trust (unless they had some rare agreement) -- again, bad for her and her relationship. Was the desire bad? No. Was there possible consequences to carrying that desire over from the present moment? yes. As there is danger with carrying any emotions (or logic based on them) from the present moment.

I really broke down and paraphrased what Ruiz said, but I think I retained the message - just with more detail.

It's all about keeping your respect and commitments to others, and to yourself. Taking any desire out of the present moment, and/or allowing it to make you make choices you regret -- perhaps and addiction even, will have negative effects, not the desire itself. If for some people not having any desire is the answer - that is their prerogative, but in analysis, it is not the desire itself that causes any problems, but the issue of how the human mind may respond to those desires, in a sense erroneously.

My 2 cents