The Nature of Desire

[Freed Fox]

Thank god for gurus. Otherwise, we might all have to think for ourselves.

Scary thought.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Freed Fox (here)
Thank god for gurus. Otherwise, we might all have to think for ourselves.

Scary thought.

Hehe, there is so many ways to interpret this post

From one of those perspectives, I guess the perhaps the most valuable question here then might be -- What do you Freed Fox, think about the acceptance or nullification of "Desire" as you asked the question?

[Freed Fox]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
What do you Freed Fox, think about the acceptance or nullification of "Desire" as you asked the question?

Well, I didn't ask just so I could give 'the answer'. I was hoping to get personal perspectives from others.

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
[...] it is not the desire itself that causes any problems, but the issue of how the human mind may respond to those desires, in a sense erroneously.

That is what it boils down to, to me.

Not too long ago, I gave up the vast majority of my worldly possessions. I gave up my instruments, and with them my favorite pass-time. I gave up my more worldly desires to find deeper ones which cannot be fulfilled here, on this planet. Desires which, by the way, do not in any way include oppression or harm or violation of anyone else's personal sovereignty or intrinsic rights. No negative impact; just the effect of making me actually happy for once.

Yet, it would seem that there are no shortage of 'enlightened' and 'wise' individuals who would tell me I'm wrong for that. They would equate me with those with cravings for wealth, power, or domination? Those who would (and do) abuse and kill and rape and steal to satisfy their desires?

I know that if I gave up all desire, it would include the desire to figure out what this is all for and why I am here on Earth to begin with. Incidentally, that's the only reason I continue to bother. Without that impetus, I'd be left to go find myself a short rope and a tall tree.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Freed Fox (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
What do you Freed Fox, think about the acceptance or nullification of "Desire" as you asked the question?

Well, I didn't ask just so I could give 'the answer'. I was hoping to get personal perspectives from others.

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
[...] it is not the desire itself that causes any problems, but the issue of how the human mind may respond to those desires, in a sense erroneously.

That is what it boils down to, to me.

Not too long ago, I gave up the vast majority of my worldly possessions. I gave up my instruments, and with them my favorite pass-time. I gave up my more worldly desires to find deeper ones which cannot be fulfilled here, on this planet. Desires which, by the way, do not in any way include oppression or harm or violation of anyone else's personal sovereignty or intrinsic rights. No negative impact; just the effect of making me actually happy for once.

Yet, it would seem that there are no shortage of 'enlightened' and 'wise' individuals who would tell me I'm wrong for that. They would equate me with those with cravings for wealth, power, or domination? Those who would (and do) abuse and kill and rape and steal to satisfy their desires?

I know that if I gave up all desire, it would include the desire to figure out what this is all for and why I am here on Earth to begin with. Incidentally, that's the only reason I continue to bother. Without that impetus, I'd be left to go find myself a short rope and a tall tree.

You may want to look at it this way; In regards to human endeavours, everything can come down to a classification of two "forces" so to speak. One seeks to inhibit, to subdue, to stymie, stifle, stall, paralyze; the other seeks to blossom, experience, grow, seek, feel and be. These two opposing forces permeate everything physical and ethereal. If you can recognize these two classifications in all your perceptions, the choices you subsequently make will be much less "blind", regardless the topic. Apply this knowledge in the moment, and from moment to moment, you can choose your thoughts and directions without having to worry about others' "rules" or "teachings", my 2 cents

I hope that makes a little sense, and has some relevance to you topic.

[Freed Fox]

Sorry folks. I think my participation throughout this thread was really somewhat... uncharacteristic for me. It was not that I was being disingenuous; to the contrary, it was a kind of sincerity that may have just been expressed too harshly.

So please, don't judge too severely for my momentary indiscretions. I've personally been dealing with a lot of negativity lately and feeling quite alone, with little in way of refuge to seek. It does occasionally help to vent.

[Milneman]

Posted by Freed Fox (here)
Thank god for gurus. Otherwise, we might all have to think for ourselves.

Scary thought.

But, said Milneman, who thinks for the gurus? :D

[Tony]

From an ordinary sentient being's point of view desire is what keeps them going round and round in circles.
It leads to frustration, which leads to addiction to more desire. In sanskrit it is called Samsara - the vicious cycle of existence.

From an enlightened point of view, desire is merely a distraction, which keeps us as sentient beings.

If you believe you are human and have always been human, and that is is the only life you have then desire is of no consequence.
However if you feel that enlightenment is possible, then desire is an obstacle.

Pure desire, like anger or any of the emotions, is an energy that can brighten the mind. For a spiritual practitioner this energy
can remind us of pure being, but as we are sentient beings it just messes with our minds, totally distracting us, so we stay in the day dream,
and pontificate.


Tony


WHEN WE USE WORDS, THE MEANING IS DETERMINED BY THE CONTEXT.

[greybeard]

Posted by Freed Fox (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
What do you Freed Fox, think about the acceptance or nullification of "Desire" as you asked the question?

Well, I didn't ask just so I could give 'the answer'. I was hoping to get personal perspectives from others.

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
[...] it is not the desire itself that causes any problems, but the issue of how the human mind may respond to those desires, in a sense erroneously.

That is what it boils down to, to me.

Not too long ago, I gave up the vast majority of my worldly possessions. I gave up my instruments, and with them my favorite pass-time. I gave up my more worldly desires to find deeper ones which cannot be fulfilled here, on this planet. Desires which, by the way, do not in any way include oppression or harm or violation of anyone else's personal sovereignty or intrinsic rights. No negative impact; just the effect of making me actually happy for once.

Yet, it would seem that there are no shortage of 'enlightened' and 'wise' individuals who would tell me I'm wrong for that. They would equate me with those with cravings for wealth, power, or domination? Those who would (and do) abuse and kill and rape and steal to satisfy their desires?

I know that if I gave up all desire, it would include the desire to figure out what this is all for and why I am here on Earth to begin with. Incidentally, that's the only reason I continue to bother. Without that impetus, I'd be left to go find myself a short rope and a tall tree.

Hi Freed Fox
There have been times when due to my mind set, the thought of a short rope and long tree were/are attractive.

Towards the end of the Adyahanti video (link below) he gave me a lot of identification.
He talks of spiritual shipwreck-- limbo-- where self will and desire has gone but as yet higher will is not replacing the "me" desires.
This is accompanied by lethargy--cant be bothered--physical tiredness.
The previous driver has not yet been replaced by the True driver though there are moments when That is realised to be there at the steering wheel, then life just flows.
Acceptance of "what is" releases the obstacles.
At least, when on the pathless path, people have gone before and share these experiences.
So there are and will be flat periods--mini dark nights of the soul--when nothing seems to be happening and there is no personal will to make things happen.

The video contains a lot of common sense.
Also on that page Antita Moorjani gives great perspective particularly towards the end.

Chris



https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post768356

[TraineeHuman]

Very interesting, FF, that the desire that consumes you is for something supraphysical or at least something that's somehow superior to what's available on this planet, according to your understanding and perception.

You seem to know with certainty -- in the depths of your heart -- that a higher (maybe universal?, and at the very least, I take it, not so transient) "world" exists. That you desire it must mean that you can see it or feel it clearly, strongly? And perhaps it's only when you do feel it strongly that your desire for it is so great?

I guess one thing that's puzzling here is: how can you know so strongly and intensely that it exists, and yet say you can't reach it at all in this world? I would have thought that in those moments where you so strongly feel it and know about it, it would have to be present, or directly in contact with you, "down here", if only fleetingly? (This is a kind of a "But how can you say the glass is half-empty and deny it's also half-full?" argument.)

This reminds me a little of how Western people used to conceive of "the supernatural" -- until Kant and Nietzsche (two of the greatest philosophers ever) unpacked the absurdity of it. "The supernatural" was thought of as something utterly and totally beyond, and different from, the natural physical world. It's a bit like how car manufacturers gone berserk might conceivably talk of "the ultimate super-car". "Have we got a car for you!" That car would be so radically different from all other makes of car, it would have nothing in common with them or comparable to them. In short, it wouldn't be recognizable as a car at all. It would be way too perfect in every way, while all other cars would be very imperfect. Likewise, "the supernatural" would be unknowable to us, because we would have nothing in common with it. In other words, the whole notion of "the supernatural" as being by its nature almost totally beyond our reach turns out to be pure nonsense.

Another thing (or more of the same thing) I find puzzling so far is, how can you have the consciousness of that superior world and not have any way of bringing some of that consciousness into this physical world? In my own experience -- and in all the psychology of the ancient East -- some kind of higher consciousness literally is what freedom from identification with any desire is. Any desire. Indeed, in a sufficiently "high" such consciousness one clearly sees that that consciousness and existence/being are one and the same thing.

I guess I do appreciate the point that simply by being born into the inferior level of existence/being that this world is, we have temporarily rejected a world inhabited solely by much higher consciousness -- a world that perhaps does not need us although we need it, because the higher bestows life to the lower. But my understanding and experience is that all other levels and universes are right here, even the highest ones; and they can, therefore, be experienced while our body is right here. Ultimately this is what the advanced version (or the only true version) of the spiritual life is all about. Piercing and transcending that veil.

[Freed Fox]

Look at it this way - say someone wishes to fly freely, of their own accord. They feel it in the depths of their soul; a certain need for it... whether it was natural and fundamental to them in some other life, or something else of that sort. Yet, no matter what they do or how hard they try, they will never sprout a pair of physical wings as a human being living on this planet.

With that example, there are at least analogues, approximations of that experience (planes, sky-diving, 'wing-suits'). With mine there aren't any really. Once in a rare while I will have a dream about it, but that's about all I've got.

Also, I don't believe that feeling something is the same as truly experiencing its presence, necessarily.

Not saying I'm the only one, just saying.

[TraineeHuman]

Yes, FF, this physical world is not a world of perfection. And yes, it's a very, very long journey indeed, with many stages that need to be gone through one after the other, to find the transcendental while one is immersed in this world. Even this physical world is difficult to master or survive reasonably OK in, just in itself.

But the strength of your (great) desire for the transcendental is the first necessary step. One hears "the call", and then in one way or another one refuses the call many times. Everyone does that. Many times. But it doesn't go away. Feeling strong despair, as you do, will probably delay your taking further action for a while. Certainly, I've seen individuals who get some real insight into how long and demanding the journey to transcendence is, and then maybe for decades they don't want to have anything to do with it. But it's something we all come back to eventually. Possibly in another life. It's worth it all, eventually. Maybe a very long time from now. Another thing everybody does is to take many "escapes", vacations from that journey at various stages.

I'm very sorry to hear that you're feeling such pain. And no, there's nothing wrong with the desire you're feeling , because it's a very noble desire.

[Edit] The power, the strength to overcome all your despair lies on the inside -- of you! Human beings are transitional creatures. In nature, the cocoon automatically turns into a butterfly. But in the spiritual life you have to see clearly that you're a caterpillar, or a cocoon, and you have to strongly have the will to become the butterfly.