The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

[TraineeHuman]

The astral and the mental bodies you can OB travel/project in are parts of you, and specifically they are parts of your personality. As far as I understand, they are created by your consciousness prior to or at birth. At birth and in the first nine years they are extremely impressionable, and are moulded in certain ways by one's parents and by other conditioning -- and significantly by any traumatic experiences. Your consciousness also controls all the systems in your physical body -- digestion, breathing, circulation, and so on. It does this in collaboration with your cells -- each of which has some consciousness.

Your (higher) consciousness is your Higher Mind. We could say that it is you, except that most individuals don't know who/what they are. They will at least have moments of (higher) consciousness, whenever they are being truly aware. Really, who/what you are is more than this. But until you are basically united with your HM, you won't be able to appreciate or know that you are more than the HM. This is despite the fact that, know it or not, you are in communication with your HM throughout most dreams. And also despite the fact that your being goes into delta -- which is superconsciousness, and part of the Divine Mind -- while you are sleeping, and the part of what is really you that you think of as "you" sleeps unconsciously, and probably doesn't want to face the superconsciousness that, as I say, an important part of the true fuller "you" already is.

Ironically, it's been very thoroughly proved by childhood psychologists that for approximately the first eight months of life, a child sees itself as being the whole universe, and therefore in effect as Source. In an adult this would be called a state of enlightenment, and certainly it's a state of seeing everything in a non-separative way. On the other hand, usually at age four (or maybe earlier), virtually everyone in our society goes into "childhood amnesia". What this means is that a new "self" takes over their personality, and shoves virtually all the child's prior memories into their shadow, into the unknown. One part or spin-off of an individual's journey to liberation is the recovery of memories of everything major that really happened in those first four years. Usually it's also necessary to re-view what really happened at later ages as well, and beyond childhood. Around eight years ago, for instance, I finally reached a full enough awareness regarding my stepfather, who didn't come into my life before age ten. I was able to figure out that he was a paranoid schizophrenic throughout all the years I knew him -- and that he was paranoid about me also! To him, my mother liked me too much, and probably more than she often liked him, or at least that was what he imagined. As a result he had spent many years trying to covertly sabotage me in ways I had never suspected, until eight years ago. That's only one example of one layer of "the onion" of one's past that we all need to unravel and come to insights of broadly what really happened.

What's also ironic is that you could quite truly say that your physical, emotional and mental bodies are all just different and secondary states of your consciousness. The trouble is, most people allow themselves to be largely dominated by their moods. We should be aware that we are constantly affected by the contents of such energy bodies in other people and even in different places and different objects. (Actually, also by the bodies that make up our own personality -- which is why we need the HM to come back and transform them.) Although we don't physically see these, actually we do feel a strong impact from the "energies" or the mood of others as well. For example, if the boss walks past many people will suddenly go quiet and perhaps behave in an inhibited or conscientious way. And they will do this because they directly "feel" the impact of the boss's "energies".

In light of this, I recommend meditating before you go to sleep or before you astral project, because hopefully that will enable you to partially or fully detach from the personality, which is the part of you affected by moods and so on. Another related issue is that your personality will typically have thousands of energetic cords to the personalities of others, living and maybe even dead. Particularly to your parents and any spouse/partner or children, but also to friends, schoolteachers, employers, and so on, past or present. This was discussed early in this thread, but the more you can detach and be aware of your HM or bring in your HM, the less strong the effect of those chords will be. If you're astral projecting and you have some strong cords to someone who's currently in a bad mood or currently feels negativity towards you, that unpleasant energy will partly affect the quality, or the pleasantness, of your astral projection experience. Again, the best solution, if you can do it, is to get united with consciousness (your HM) permanently. Then, just as "enlightenment" means a great lightening of any and all emotional suffering or burdens, you'll be largely free of unpleasant experiences of any sort any time you astral project.

Another structure or system is that of the chakras. Some claim that there exists something called "the etheric body" between the emotional/astral/magnetic body and the physical body. I claim that the facts are, there is no body there, but only energies of connection between the two types of body. The chakras are located in the emotional body, but they have substantial connections into the physical body, and help to regulate its health. Actually there are some chakras that connect to above the head or below the feet of the physical body, and therefore not to the physical body itself. Because the chakras connect in this way, when you astral project you temporarily turn off most such connections. This is why beginners in astral travel will always briefly experience something like quite worrying nausea in their solar plexus area, and maybe some other unpleasant sensations at other major chakra areas of the physical body.

[Joy_P]

TraineeHuman, Can you have a different personality in the astral realms?

I dreamed once that I was trying to help a ghost realize she was dead. When she stubbornly resisted, I thought it was hilarious. That's usually my attitude in the astral (or whatever it is). I think everything is funny. This is not my normal state of mind in 3D. I'm usually pretty serious.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by Joy_P (here)
TraineeHuman, Can you have a different personality in the astral realms?

I dreamed once that I was trying to help a ghost realize she was dead. When she stubbornly resisted, I thought it was hilarious. That's usually my attitude in the astral (or whatever it is). I think everything is funny. This is not my normal state of mind in 3D. I'm usually pretty serious.

Yes, the astral seems to have at least seven different levels or worlds, and the mental at least three. When you're in any of these levels except probably the lowest astral level -- which is the level where earthbound individuals, the "ghosts", stay --, you temporarily shed your connection to your most dense or "rubbish" energies, more and more the higher the level. Beyond the two lowest levels of the astral the law of gravity stops operating at all. But there are many other ways in which these worlds/levels operate under fewer "laws of nature", hence there's greater freedom and a higher and higher level of energy the higher you go. Also a different kind of perceived reality. I find it amazing to observe a person going through death, just after they physically die. They shed ever so many of their negative qualities and sub-personalities within the first few hours. And underneath all that, their strong positive qualities (which are mostly part of the HM) have been right there trying to shine their light all the time -- mostly without the person having recognised this while they were physically alive.

When a person dies they initially go to the middle of the seven astral levels. I've noticed that many seem to spend parts of their first day after death flying around like a young kid with their first bike, because they've found themselves in a world with no gravity. Admittedly, immediately after death everyone also needs to do a stocktake and work out where the "hell" they now are, and that's a major issue they have to get through initially.

As far as I'm aware, most of our dreams (other than nightmares) occur in the highest of the mental worlds. That's certainly a much more joyful and easeful place than the physical world we live in. And yes indeed, Joy, the "you" at that level, with all that's you at lower levels temporarily disconnected, is a much more joyful being who can see humor in everything.

[Kalamos]

..........

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by Calamus (here)

I have been learning to differentiate between the lower self (personality) and the higher self (SELF or Soul) by a method I'm learning through Esoterics.

That's certainly a good attempt at describing a very big picture of things, Henry. In this and another post or two, I'd like to point out at what points I disagree or believe I know more correct information. That's not to deny for a moment, though, that your post presents insights which may be very useful.

When you say you're learning to differentiate between the lower and Higher self, do you by some chance mean you're learning to differentiate experientially? I'm afraid I need to say that pure reason, or conceptual information, is on its own no substitute for the experience. It can, however, guide one towards certain experiences, and show one where to look further and commit to. But the experiences -- some experiences at least -- need to happen.

I'm taught the SELF (atman, monad, whatever) is involved and enveloped in material bodies of different grades, for want of a better term (vibration, density).

Well, I understand the experience of all or virtually all the greatest mystics has been that even the lowest of the formless worlds have absolutely no defining "vibration" at all -- certainly none in anything like the physical or energetic sense of "vibration". (As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, there are Higher analogues, e.g. change itself is a Higher analogue of what most people consider time to be -- though the "time" of science is only the measurable part of time, which is only a tiny part of what time actually is. By the way, all of time other than that tiny part, is an example of something that's formless. Anyone who supposes there are no such things as the formless will be committed to believing that the "time" of science is the only true kind of time. If you go to any Philosophy Department at any university, they'll politely laugh at you if you believe that. The truth is, real time doesn't flow at all, and the only real time that exists is the eternal, ever-changing Now -- containing all pasts and futures in it as concepts now.)

The experience of the greatest mystics has also been that there definitely and absolutely is no such thing as a Causal "Body". In the Zen tradition, for instance, its most famous debate, continually revived for centuries, was over whether the HM should be considered to be "Big Mind", or instead "No-Mind", i.e. no "Causal Body" of any sort whatsoever. The "No-Mind" faction totally won this debate, and with a vengeance. And they did it partly by applying pure reason, but primarily through careful reflection or deep enlightened experiencing of what reality is at deep levels. (There have been various books written about this.)

Again, in the Vedanta (Hindu) tradition, every last single great or famous guru has claimed, and realized for a fact in their own experience, that there is absolutely no such thing as a Causal "Body".

I'm not saying to blindly follow the true experts or authorities. But unfortunately, as far as I can tell, everyone I have come across who claimed there exists such a thing as a "Body" at a Causal (or HM) level seemed to do so out of ignorance and out of a lack of adequate direct experience of sufficiently higher levels of reality. I also suspect that the claim that a Causal Body must exist is partly based on the false assumption that, at any level, if you don't have a "body" of some description, you can't exist there.

On the topic of "matter" and "material" so-called "bodies", I wonder to what extent you're aware that by the early twentieth century atomic physics had proved that matter is nothing but a fiction, as far as any of it existing in the physical world goes? (Kind of like an optical illusion with practical usefulness , but still purely a fiction when you carefully investigate what it really is.) This revelation inspired or strongly catalyzed gigantic upheavals in the world of the arts.Physics had for some centuries continually discovered only forms and empty space, and nothing else, where it had been supposed that "matter" existed. In this way physics had proved that the (purely) physical world is made out of nothing but form and space.

The advent of the further development of quantum theory, along with quark theory and string theory, not only "rubbed it in" that physics doesn't actually deal with matter (as anything at all that's in any way other than pure form and space only). It also added the fact that the physical world of forms and space contains major areas of unknowability. Just one example was something I mentioned and explained particularly in post #1061 here:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post697302
In that post I explained how it is simply a fact -- not a theory! -- that electrons are not object, or particles -- and that physics has proved that the physical world is ultimately not made of particles at all. This is a "matter" of simple fact, not opinion. Some two weeks after there appeared the following thread: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post702798
This began with a video of Deepak Chopra saying the same thing, plus some of the implications of it that I hadn't mentioned. Some of Deepak's language was simpler than mine, and he described more of the implications of this than I had done.

I'll save my further specific comments for another post or two, Henry. For now, back to some general issues. At the risk of sounding boring, let me say that spirituality is primarily about having certain experiences -- and integrating them into one's life. I don't care what level of experience a person is at, provided they're meditating daily and working daily to uncover and face their ego at least in some small way. Preferably also every day putting aside all their limitations, somehow. All my posts are intended for individuals such as this. You don't go to cookery classes unless you're willing to work on making meals.

Spirit and mind are different things, and it helps not to confuse them. I've been talking much about the HM, which is a type of Consciousness, as a Higher Mind. The word "Higher" is meant to signify that this is something radically different from and way beyond the limitations of ordinary mind. It knows directly, though often not completely. The intellect or ordinary mind (even though it has many distinct parts) never knows anything directly. It knows only superficially, from externals. All it has is symbols or words or pictures, which are indirect, and not the thing itself. I use words here because I expect readers to (use their HM to) penetrate directly to the meaning.

[Kalamos]

..........

[Eram]

Hi TraineeHuman,

I've hesitated to post here for a while, since I have been reading in the Laurency material, which contradicts some of what you teach and I don't want to create disturbance in this beautiful thread.
After your last post, the temptation to jump in and discuss what you wrote got the better of me though . I hope you don't mind and if you do, I'd be happy to delete the post.
But.... maybe a small debate might fit in here without disturbing the flow of the thread too much.
It's an interesting debate after all

I know, you said that experience is king and I fully agree, but we need certain hypotheses to work by in order to accomplish growth isn't it? So it is of great importance that this hypothyses represents reality as best as possible.
By the way.... experience is king yes, but it only becomes so after we are able to reach an objective (factual) interpretation of this experience imo.

The debate of matter and it being an illusion or a reality is a difficult one and in the end, there might not be an objective proof for either of those ideas.
Not at the level of physical life anyway.

Just the observation that electrons don't behave as particles is no proof that therefore matter is not real. It is a subjective conclusion that is drawn out of the observation that electrons don't behave as particles.
Another explanation might be that all the worlds (their matter) are created out of the matter from the next higher world (which in case of the physical world would be the first etheric world) and what scientist observe are the borderlines of this model of creation.
In this model, matter can be both real and behave in unknown ways at a subatomic level.

The hylozoic (esoteric) explanation of reality teaches that reality (in all worlds) consists of three major components.
Matter, motion and consciousness.
I have not found objective proof for this so far, but however I toss this idea around and fit it in with other ideas and observations, it is by far the most sensible idea that I've ever come across.
Better even, it allows me to see through a lot of ideas that I clung to before.

How would you explain the existence of consciousness if there is no matter and motion to be conscious of TH?

The experience of the greatest mystics has also been that there definitely and absolutely is no such thing as a Causal "Body". In the Zen tradition, for instance, its most famous debate, continually revived for centuries, was over whether the HM should be considered to be "Big Mind", or instead "No-Mind", i.e. no "Causal Body" of any sort whatsoever. The "No-Mind" faction totally won this debate, and with a vengeance. And they did it partly by applying pure reason, but primarily through careful reflection or deep enlightened experiencing of what reality is at deep levels. (There have been various books written about this.)

Again, in the Vedanta (Hindu) tradition, every last single great or famous guru has claimed, and realized for a fact in their own experience, that there is absolutely no such thing as a Causal "Body".

Could you provide some reading material (titles of books) were I can read up on these matters TH?
I'd be interested to learn more about this and how they came to the conclusions that they made.

[TraineeHuman]

Hi Eram,

If a particular conceptual framework works so well for you, why not stick with it -- until maybe (and I personally would say hopefully) you're clearly experiencing things that don't fit with it.

Some of the issues you're raising are central issues of philosophy. Unfortunately I'm not interested in trying to provide a lengthy lecture course in pure philosophy, which is what I believe your questions would require. I am somewhat interested in applied philosophy, though, because it's relevant to helping people understand their spiritual experiences and insights -- particularly phenomena like enlightenment and what is really involved in getting to enlightenment and even to liberation. Some academic philosophers believe that philosophy shouldn't even be taught to undergraduates. That's because it would be too abstract and subtle (and probably is!) for most university undergraduates to grasp. Unfortunately, I believe it would be too demanding for me (or almost anyone) to write and conduct an online philosophy course.

The most easy to read account of much of the metaphysics (i.e., the implicit order of what sorts of things exist) of modern physics, up till about the mid-twentieth century, is The Dancing Wu Li Masters, by Gary Zukav. There is, or was, a paperback version. I guess you could also watch Deepak Chopra's video that I referenced above.

Another book that is simply written, and it's also short, is The Concept of Mind, by the late Prof. Gilbert Ryle (1959 I think, Cambridge UP). In that book, Ryle proved by pure reason that the whole notion of mind is like a ghost in a machine -- just an illusion. Well, actually, he did give an alternative, which he called "pantheism" -- or, rather, that there is one Great Spirit throughout the universe that we mistakenly believe we see as all our separate individual minds --, which he dismissed as ridiculous. Mystics know the latter is the case, but they know it through direct experience/awareness. Read the Upanishads, if you like.

All the literature of Zen is packed with references to formlessness and things even beyond that, though it may be in terms such as "that which is unborn in you". Similarly, the Vedas, the Gitas, the Upanishads are absolutely full of references to formless phenomena and even far beyond, though they won't always explicitly say something like "that which has no form". All the Masters or Gurus from those traditions directly or indirectly refer to what their "scriptures" discuss. And formlessness is mentioned continually.

As far as your saying that pure consciousness needs something to be conscious of, again, mystics like me know through direct experience that such objectless consciousness is the only type of consciousness to be found in the worlds of Source. Since Source creates everything else, that consciousness is self-sufficient without the need for matter.

If this reading list isn't enough for your purposes, Eram, please let me know.

[Kalamos]

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[Highwhistler]

Friends -- thank you for all the contributions to this most fascinating topic.

You are invited to download this essay that I wrote several years ago:

Introduction to the OBE

If you find something interesting in it ... please share here.

[Jake]

Posted by Highwhistler (here)
Friends -- thank you for all the contributions to this most fascinating topic.

You are invited to download this essay that I wrote several years ago:

Introduction to the OBE

If you find something interesting in it ... please share here.

Hello, Highwhistler,,, Not many posts, but this one sure packs a punch. Thank you for offering us your wisdom.

~
1. Reality is plural ... there are indeed parallel Universes.
2. We are multi-dimensional spiritual beings.
3. All experiences are holographic.
4. The fundamental basis of all versions of reality are built
on an underlying structure that is highly and deeply orchestrated.
Everything is intertwined into an infinite tapestry of unity and
wholeness.
5. All worlds and experiences are had through models of selfcreation,
i.e.: everything is seen through a view of personal reality,
even if that personal reality is expanded to the point where there
is no individual, no identifiable observer ... there still is a center of
consciousness that is everywhere ... the “I AM” or “I AM THAT” or
the wordless-aliveness-thing that is both universal and also highly
personal, simultaneously.

So this is the introduction?? I'd love to see the rest of it. I had an OBE, even last night. It started out as a fully lucid flying dream, then phased into an OBE 'in progress'. It lasted for hours. Not typical for me,,, but I'm not complaining.

Beautiful artwork in you PDF. I am enjoying learning about the Wingmakers. Thank you.

Jake.

[soleil]

before i forget...ive been on and off about whether i should be asking about this. as im slowly losing the exact memory.
in a dream last weekend, i came across a being, that was blue like tourquoise etheric, even though i could even see clothes and face and shape. it was obviously non physical to me, although i had never seen this type of "person" before, ever, anywhere. as soon as i saw this being, i realized i was the only one who could! i was exclaiming, "hi ghost!" and "cant you see them?" then, the blue etheric looking person/being started to come towards me; and i got spooked, so i was saying "no no dont come here" but it/they( may have been 2) appeared beside me as twolittle light like orbs, that i blew away from me as though i was blowing out a candle. they didnt blow out, they just blew away. i didnt intend to be afraid, or shut them out. i just felt unprepared to interact up close.

was this obe or a dream? is this a typical look, of a being in astral?

[Highwhistler]

When you are having an OBE, and if you realize that you can control where you're going, try to go to a quiet place in Nature ... like the top of a noble, favorite old tree. Settle into the tree ... and then meditate. Meditation is absolutely spectacular when in the out of body "form" as you are not using the same mind-brain instruments that you use here in the physical world.

Actually, you may have a visible form (like a "light body" or something that looks like your physical body but that is not limited by gravity or walls) ... or you may not have a physical form. Either way ... try not to be afraid. Fear usually brings you right back to your physical body in 3D -- and the OBE is over.

I feel that the important thing to realize during a fully conscious OB experience is that YOU are a functional, non-physical, center of life and consciousness, whether you have a form or not.

The meaning of "functional" in the last sentence is that you have directional control abilities, that is: you can travel up, down, left, right, and even instantly teleport to other physical locations or dimensions ... you can think if you want to (but what is "normal thinking" here in 3D is usually irrelevant during an OBE), you even can check-in with your 3D body from time-to-time to make sure its OK, and then return to your OB experience as a wide-awake center of awareness.

And so during an OB experience, you may notice that at times you have a body (like you may be soaring over a forest and you notice your hands and legs) and at other times you do not have a body ... but you still are a fully functional, awake center of consciousness. Both form and formlessness can happen over an over again during a single OB experience. Just know its totally natural and normal. You might be looking at your hand and forearm ... and then it fades away into nothingness ... but you remain unharmed in any way as a functional, alive and awake center of consciousness (and you can continue on with your OB experience). That scenario -- of having a body and then not having one during an OBE -- is called the "Alice and Wonderland Effect."

[Highwhistler]

Posted by sway (here)
before i forget...ive been on and off about whether i should be asking about this. as im slowly losing the exact memory.
in a dream last weekend, i came across a being, that was blue like tourquoise etheric, even though i could even see clothes and face and shape. it was obviously non physical to me, although i had never seen this type of "person" before, ever, anywhere. as soon as i saw this being, i realized i was the only one who could! i was exclaiming, "hi ghost!" and "cant you see them?" then, the blue etheric looking person/being started to come towards me; and i got spooked, so i was saying "no no dont come here" but it/they( may have been 2) appeared beside me as twolittle light like orbs, that i blew away from me as though i was blowing out a candle. they didnt blow out, they just blew away. i didnt intend to be afraid, or shut them out. i just felt unprepared to interact up close.

was this obe or a dream? is this a typical look, of a being in astral?

I think it was a dream as you start out the story by saying "in a dream last weekend."

But then, I feel that dreams are not exactly like what our parents, teachers and priests believe them to be.

I sense (from direct, first-hand experiences) that we are full, active participants in a Multiverse. Being human on Earth is not just living in a 3D world ... each human being is a center for the experience of multiple dimensions, multiple universes. And so a simple dream can be threads of our awareness that are popping into other dimensions and worlds that are as valid as physical Earth.

A human being is really more like a multidimensional, atmospheric, quantum field-based, spiritual center of awareness -- and one aspect of ourselves is seen here in the physical world.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by Calamus (here)
22The causal world is sometimes called the formless world, a misleading expression. The causal
world is filled with the forms of the natural kingdoms existing in that matter. The term formless
has been assigned to that world, since the vibrations of evolutionary beings in causal matter do not
form any material aggregates, as occurs in the emotional and mental worlds. The manifestations of
causal consciousness do not produce any forms but rather colour phenomena that dissolve at
12
lightning speed.
http://www.laurency.com/DVSe/ps2.pdf

Henry, you say you aspire to not being attached to beliefs and opinions, because that, you believe, amounts to freedom at the level of the mental plane. So, why all the attachment to (apparently) believing that hylozoics is "the truth"? One thing I would like to mention to you and Eram is as follows.

The history of post-medieveal philosphy has been that for three centuries all the greatest philosophers each tried to construct a "theory of everything", also known as a philosophical system. Through a gradual process of learning from the inadequacies of the attempts of all who had gone before, by the late nineteenth or early twentieth century it became clear to philosophers that no such thing as an accurate "theory of everything" is even possible. So, just on that basis I know in advance that hylozoics, or whatever else you like, will be full of serious flaws. If you want to treat it as a theory of everything, I already know in advance that you're misleading yourselves.

What I write about in posts is mostly based on direct experience. There's no belief in that, but direct and certain knowledge. I don't attach to any belief system. Either I know, or I don't know. And hopefully I'm ruthlessly honest with myself regarding all that I don't know. And I do happen to know as fact, from much experience over most of my life, that what hylozoics says about the formless is altogether a false belief -- no doubt based on inadequacy of direct relevant experience. The truth doesn't need to be defended.

Sri Aurobindo
Writings in Bengali
The Vision of the World Spirit

The Form and The Formless
The worshippers of the formless Brahman without qualities dismiss any statement about its qualities and form as being only metaphors and similes. The worshippers of the formless Brahman with qualities deny its lack of attributes by explaining the Shastras in a different way and dismiss any statement about its form as being only metaphors and similes. The worshippers of the Brahman with form and attributes are up in arms against both of them. We hold all the three views to be narrow, incomplete and born of ignorance. For, those who have realised the formless Brahman and the Brahman with form, how can they hold one view to be true and discard the other as being false and imaginary, and thus abrogate the ultimate evidence of knowledge and confine the infinite. Brahman within the finite? It is true that if we deny the formlessness and the lack of attributes of the Brahman we belittle God. But it is equally true that if we deny the qualities and the form of the Brahman we belittle Him again. God is the Master, the Creator and the Lord. He cannot be tied down to any form; as He is not limited by His form, so also He is not limited by His formlessness. God is all-powerful. If we feign to catch Him in the net of the laws of the physical Nature or of Time and Space and then tell Him, “Though you are infinite, we shall not allow you to be finite, try as you may, you will not succeed, you are bound with our irrefutable logic and arguments like Ferdinand with Prospero's magic.” What could be more ludicrous, impertinent or ignorant? God is bound neither by His form nor by His formlessness; He reveals Himself in a form to the seeker. God is there in His fullness in that form, yet at the same time pervades the whole universe. For God is beyond time and space, unattainable by any argument; time and space are His toys. He is playing with all beings caught in his net of time and space. But we shall never be able to catch Him in that net. Every time we try to achieve this impossibility with logic and philosophical argument, the Jester eludes the net and stands smiling in front of us, behind us, near us and far from us, spreads out his World Form, and the Form beyond the universe, defeating the intellect. He who says, “I know Him,” knows nothing. He who says, “I know Him yet I do not know Him,” has true knowledge.
[…]

Sri Aurbindo most certainly did not deny here that the higher planes are formless in nature. Let's look more carefully at what he's saying. He's saying that Brahman (which effectively means the same here as the Divine Mind) -- which he elsewhere makes clear is in its essence not only formless but universal and omnipresent -- can descend into worlds of form, and then it does indeed have a form. This happens, for instance, when a Divine Being incarnates in human form. I happen to have had direct one-to-one conversations and encounters with a few of the greatest Gods who did incarnate, such as Shiva and Gaia. Those have been amazingly vivid and detailed and unforgettable experiences, and did not involve any belief, or anything else indirect. Have I not expended considerable energy in this thread tirelessly explaining that true spirituality begins with descension? I don't disagree with that quote from Aurobindo at all. But let's be clear on what he does and doesn't mean to say there.

[soleil]

thanks highwhistler. i know that i said it was a dream, (what is a dream anyway?) anyways, if youve read throughout this thread, TH usually says we are obe when we dream. and he gives great interpretations of them, that help my growth. which is why this thread is so wonderful, and not really about the obe itself. its about it all.

[Kalamos]

..........

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by sway (here)
before i forget...ive been on and off about whether i should be asking about this. as im slowly losing the exact memory.
in a dream last weekend, i came across a being, that was blue like tourquoise etheric, even though i could even see clothes and face and shape. it was obviously non physical to me, although i had never seen this type of "person" before, ever, anywhere. as soon as i saw this being, i realized i was the only one who could! i was exclaiming, "hi ghost!" and "cant you see them?" then, the blue etheric looking person/being started to come towards me; and i got spooked, so i was saying "no no dont come here" but it/they( may have been 2) appeared beside me as twolittle light like orbs, that i blew away from me as though i was blowing out a candle. they didnt blow out, they just blew away. i didnt intend to be afraid, or shut them out. i just felt unprepared to interact up close.

was this obe or a dream? is this a typical look, of a being in astral?

Beyond the physical, all beings, imcluding animals and ETs, often look like just another "being". Based on my own experience, I'd say you met with an ET (two ETs?) in the astral. There is a friendly, gentle, I believe fully benevolent ET race that look the beautiful bright light blue/turquoise color humanoid shape that it sounds like you're describing. If so, and you meet them again, I suggest just chill out and let them show you whatever they're willing to show you. You say nobody else could see them, but that would probably be because there are different levels/planes/worlds in the astral, and one will see only the beings on one's own plane.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by Calamus (here)
[W]hen we really 'open our mind' and as we go about looking for better answers and ideas, which is the very impulse of our Spirit to do (to KNOW), then we fight against that programing. We fight against our Mental Self, our Mental Body... It takes the effort of True Will and Real/Free THINKING to break free from the chains that bind our Mind.

Then there are pitfalls, as one Ideology or Paradigm might free us from an older, outdated, less expansive one, only to now bind us in a new Meme or Ideology; a higher Place in the Mental World, but still bound to that World.

For instance, Buddhism might free one from Dogmatic Christianity, but then you are bound to the Mental Ideas of Buddhism, and on an intellectual level at first (as no one is Enlightened just by considering Buddhism). The same thing, a philosophy of scientific materialism might free you from Religious Mental complexes.

So the key is to identify this process; to objectify the different functions of your lower bodies as they pertain to your thinking, whether reactive/subjective, or proactive/objective.

This is how I personally see Mindfulness.

What I continue to struggle to do, and it is freeing and yet an awfully scary place to be, is to BELIEVE NOTHING, but just observe things and your reaction to things.

It is difficult to have no belief, and maybe impossible (I might be fooling myself), but as it is, this is how we discover the underlying World View of our Spirit, perhaps how discover The Knowledge of Reality.

So when I get emotional, I immediately look for the cause. Easy.

When I consider a new paradigm or Idea, I realize that I'm comparing it to something else (in my Mind), so I step back. Not so easy.

The way I would put it is, I find that most individuals seriously working to liberate themselves will have rather quickly freed the mental part of themselves at least to the extent that it becomes convinced of the need to work deeply on the inner level, and in cooperation with the HM and Higher Forces.

But very often I find it's on the emotional plane -- in the emotions -- that such individuals are held back. This emotional "self" has not agreed to the evolution the individual has mentally convinced themselves about working towards.

These emotions need not just be pure emotions such as anger or fear. Often they will contain a mental part, but still be emotions. Some examples: greed, addiction to power, narcissism, obsession, and possessiveness, to name just a few. These are what slow most people down. One has to find a way to keep them on the periphery and superficial. One needs to become more strongly conscious of dwelling more deeply inward, calm and at ease there. Then the outer emotions can more easily fall away -- if one faces them. I guess all the stuff you said about mindfulness amounts to a detailed version of much the same as what I'm saying here.

There is actually also a different kind of blockage on the mental level that it's also very important to overcome. This is made up of very negative self-judgments everyone has made at the time of their life review just after their most recent lifetime. These judgments are put into oneself at the time of birth. Often a person is tougher in their judgment of themselves than anyone else is. The trouble with these judgments is that they are lodged in the subconscious. Most people (perhaps secretly) simply don't like themselves, and feel unlucky in life. That's largely because the person is carrying over those judgments from the end of their previous lifetime. The best way to get rid of such self-judgments seems to be through calmly putting oneself into a higher state and yet at the same time being willing to let rip with feeling whatever negative emotions are sitting in your belly.

The other, longer-term way to specifically help free yourself of those negative judgments is by cultivating genuine self-esteem. This means consciously liking yourself or thanking or congratulating yourself more, accepting yourself more, warts and all, forgiving yourself more without neglecting any of your responsibility.

We should appreciate that the body itself, strictly speaking, isn't just physical. It too has a certain level of separate consciousness. To some extent it's able to disobey the mind. The negative emotions mentioned earlier tend to "anchor" themselves to areas of the body, in what is really a form of attachment.

[Joy_P]

Posted by sway (here)
before i forget...ive been on and off about whether i should be asking about this. as im slowly losing the exact memory.
in a dream last weekend, i came across a being, that was blue like tourquoise etheric, even though i could even see clothes and face and shape. it was obviously non physical to me, although i had never seen this type of "person" before, ever, anywhere. as soon as i saw this being, i realized i was the only one who could! i was exclaiming, "hi ghost!" and "cant you see them?" then, the blue etheric looking person/being started to come towards me; and i got spooked, so i was saying "no no dont come here" but it/they( may have been 2) appeared beside me as twolittle light like orbs, that i blew away from me as though i was blowing out a candle. they didnt blow out, they just blew away. i didnt intend to be afraid, or shut them out. i just felt unprepared to interact up close.

was this obe or a dream? is this a typical look, of a being in astral?

Hi, I just wanted to add that I've had dreams where I am tutored by a blue humanoid figure on how to talk ghosts into realizing they are dead. The blue humanoid was named "Robert". I wasn't very good at it.