The "Hitler" Speech They (Don't) Want You To Hear..!

[alh02]

Hi all, new member here.

Interesting thread this one, I've been enjoying reading all the different points of view that have been expressed here thus far... some fascinating interactions and dialogue.

Whilst reading through the posts I've come across numerous requests from various members asking for evidence that proves the holocaust didn't happen the way our official/mainstream history books would have us believe it did.

That's all well and good I suppose, but what about the evidence that proves it did?

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I've seen anything yet (from either side of the debate) that could be deemed irrefutable or conclusive proof one way or the other.

That said, I must say I do find it rather curious that so many here seem unwilling to consider the possibility that the official story being doled out to us by TPTB might not actually be as factual or accurate as we've been led to believe it is.

I mean, we've all heard the expression "history is written by the victors", well if history is anything to go by I doubt many here would disagree that the "victors" rarely end up providing an honest, accurate, factual, and more importantly unbiased account of the events that took place during the war.

This forum is literally overflowing with threads that are devoted to exposing the lies, deceptions, distortions, and manipulations of TPTB. And yet, many members here on this thread seem quite adamant that despite the fact we know they cannot be trusted... on this occasion the information they have provided is rock solid, completely unbiased, absolute fact...?

I'm sitting here right now wondering to myself why that is exactly, when we all know TPTB have lied to us about practically every important subject imaginable in the past.

Yet for some reason this time around we should be trusting their word 100% without question?

Doesn't anyone else here find that at least a little bit odd?

Why would we suddenly decide to trust that the information they've given us hasn't been deliberately fabricated, distorted, and/or embellished in order to promote or propagate one of their various agendas? (like they've done so many times before)

Why have people suddenly decided that we should trust them this time around? (when everything else they tell us is tainted with misinfo/disinfo/BS?)

I mean, we know they have a virtual monopoly on the dissemination of information, we know they control the media, we know they control the education system, we know they control the political system, we know they control the legal system, we know they are masters of deception, we know they have continually tried to deceive and manipulate us in the past.... and yet despite knowing all of this we should simply trust them on this one? (but just this once?!)

Why...?

Seriously, when did it suddenly become kosher to accept what TPTB tells us is the truth of a matter without questioning the information, their motives, or taking the time to look at all sides of the story before drawing our own conclusions?

Again I ask... where is the smoking gun evidence that proves the holocaust actually took place and occurred just the way our PTB sponsored, funded, and approved information sources have claimed it did?

If someone here can provide such concrete evidence I would happily accept the mainstream version of events (as told to us by TPTB) as fact.

But until then (as I don't believe that's been done yet), I reserve the right to keep an open mind and leave open the possibility that maybe, just maybe, they've done what they've done to us a thousand times before by deliberately distorting information in an effort to influence public opinion, control the masses, keep them just where they want them, and in so doing achieve one or more of their insidious objectives. (think 9-11, Pearl Harbour, existence of ET's, human origins and history, etc etc)

Anyway, as far as I'm aware Hitler was supported and funded by the Roman Catholic Church, the Rothschilds, the Rockerfeller's, the Bush's (among various other PTB families and organisations).

Yes, the very people who ultimately influence and determine what gets written into our history books... and how the events therein are portrayed.

Do people really think those people/groups are going to give us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

... please!

These groups secretly funded Hitler, they played both sides during the war, they planned it from the get go, and decided it's ultimate outcome.

The whole thing was just another power move in the game of socio-political-economic chess they've been playing now for centuries... which led to the creation of the UN and the nation state of Israel (two big objectives achieved).

Aaaaaanyway.

With that all said, I'm still not suggesting the holocaust we've been told about in our history books was a completely fabricated/fictitious event.

Truth be told, I wasn't there so I really have no clue what actually happened (other than what I was taught in school and what I've read in books and on the internet).

The point I'm trying to make though, is that just because our mainstream sources of information are telling us it happened a certain way, doesn't mean it did and we certainly shouldn't be accepting that at face value without doing our own research and digging a little deeper to get to the truth.

[dianna]

Well said Alh02, and welcome to the forum ...

"History would be something extraordinary if only it were true" Leo Tolstoy


Not sure if anyone is familiar with the work of Juri Lina, but this documentary "In the Shadow of Hermes", based on the book "Under the Sign of Scorpio" is really worth watching
http://www.zioncrimefactory.com/wp-c...e-Scorpion.pdf

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=oIuW-vNQsQI

[Cidersomerset]

Welcome alh02 .... Re wrote response the first draft was a bit incoherent even for
me ...LOL

This thread has developed like many others, not everything in the mainstream is
false by any means, I post lots of articles and news items from the BBC etc, its
interpretation , self censorship. The days of 'publish and be damned' are few and
far between , though some still do like the Guardian over Snowden and some
others would if it was not for the fact the paper or news room could go bust
over libel if they were not 100% sure of their sources. It is easier on the web
at present until they find a way to shut down sites more easily. Even The
Peoples Voice had to get a licence, so it could be revoked if they go to far.

Of course we are all suspicious of TPTB and how they have managed to still
stay hidden in plain sight. Many know a higher elite exist and its common
knowledge that most of the worlds wealth is in the hands of 1% so how do
they get away with it. Easy they put puppets at the head of Democracies and
other forms of government either by direct appointment or stealth thru funding
them into power. None of this is new to us on here, nor is the possible of
interference by ET's or Entities, all of which we discuss and most have no problems
of at least these being possibilities. Thats the difference, on the mainstream you are
classed as a 'nut', not a 'free thinker'.

Anyway back to Adolf. There is ample proof Hitler started WW11, They swiftly and
briefly conquered most of Europe, and was responsible as head of state and war
leader for millions of Deaths. He may not of killed or harmed a single one himself
physically, but certainly did nothing to stop the genocide.Also his doctrine from
early on was to purify the blood line of Germany and the greater Reich.

Once it was common practice for the death squads to be allowed to round up and
shoot people, with in some cases like Riga, enthusiastic local support.It becomes
more complex and as Reinhard Heydrich, said on the lines of let all the people
know what we have done in their name, so they can share in the glory & the guilt.

Most of your points are valid questions which we are all asking, the answer here is
as far as I'm concerned everthing leads me to believe Hitler and his minions were
directly involved in the killing and murdering of millions of men ,woman and
children in WW11. That's not to say The Soviets, Chinese, Japanese, Americans,
British and others were not responsible either for the killing of millions as well,
as the war progressed. The Soviets starving millions before the war and the
Chinese re educating many after. Plus all the others since and still potentially
to happen.

Only in the NAZIS case the planning was more calculated and methodically carried
out and processed to an industrial level.

[Andrew]

Well said Alh02, wish I have written like that to start with and then it wouldn't of gotten so messy on my part, I guess i was easy pickings

[Cidersomerset]

Well said Alh02, wish I have written like that to start with and then it wouldn't of gotten so messy on my part, I guess i was easy pickings

We are all learning ...LOL

[loungelizard]

Posted by alh02 (here)
Hi all, new member here.

Interesting thread this one, I've been enjoying reading all the different points of view that have been expressed here thus far... some fascinating interactions and dialogue.

Whilst reading through the posts I've come across numerous requests from various members asking for evidence that proves the holocaust didn't happen the way our official/mainstream history books would have us believe it did.

That's all well and good I suppose, but what about the evidence that proves it did?

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I've seen anything yet (from either side of the debate) that could be deemed irrefutable or conclusive proof one way or the other.

That said, I must say I do find it rather curious that so many here seem unwilling to consider the possibility that the official story being doled out to us by TPTB might not actually be as factual or accurate as we've been led to believe it is.

I mean, we've all heard the expression "history is written by the victors", well if history is anything to go by I doubt many here would disagree that the "victors" rarely end up providing an honest, accurate, factual, and more importantly unbiased account of the events that took place during the war.

This forum is literally overflowing with threads that are devoted to exposing the lies, deceptions, distortions, and manipulations of TPTB. And yet, many members here on this thread seem quite adamant that despite the fact we know they cannot be trusted... on this occasion the information they have provided is rock solid, completely unbiased, absolute fact...?

I'm sitting here right now wondering to myself why that is exactly, when we all know TPTB have lied to us about practically every important subject imaginable in the past.

Yet for some reason this time around we should be trusting their word 100% without question?

Doesn't anyone else here find that at least a little bit odd?

Why would we suddenly decide to trust that the information they've given us hasn't been deliberately fabricated, distorted, and/or embellished in order to promote or propagate one of their various agendas? (like they've done so many times before)

Why have people suddenly decided that we should trust them this time around? (when everything else they tell us is tainted with misinfo/disinfo/BS?)

I mean, we know they have a virtual monopoly on the dissemination of information, we know they control the media, we know they control the education system, we know they control the political system, we know they control the legal system, we know they are masters of deception, we know they have continually tried to deceive and manipulate us in the past.... and yet despite knowing all of this we should simply trust them on this one? (but just this once?!)

Why...?

Seriously, when did it suddenly become kosher to accept what TPTB tells us is the truth of a matter without questioning the information, their motives, or taking the time to look at all sides of the story before drawing our own conclusions?

Again I ask... where is the smoking gun evidence that proves the holocaust actually took place and occurred just the way our PTB sponsored, funded, and approved information sources have claimed it did?

If someone here can provide such concrete evidence I would happily accept the mainstream version of events (as told to us by TPTB) as fact.

But until then (as I don't believe that's been done yet), I reserve the right to keep an open mind and leave open the possibility that maybe, just maybe, they've done what they've done to us a thousand times before by deliberately distorting information in an effort to influence public opinion, control the masses, keep them just where they want them, and in so doing achieve one or more of their insidious objectives. (think 9-11, Pearl Harbour, existence of ET's, human origins and history, etc etc)

Anyway, as far as I'm aware Hitler was supported and funded by the Roman Catholic Church, the Rothschilds, the Rockerfeller's, the Bush's (among various other PTB families and organisations).

Yes, the very people who ultimately influence and determine what gets written into our history books... and how the events therein are portrayed.

Do people really think those people/groups are going to give us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

... please!

These groups secretly funded Hitler, they played both sides during the war, they planned it from the get go, and decided it's ultimate outcome.

The whole thing was just another power move in the game of socio-political-economic chess they've been playing now for centuries... which led to the creation of the UN and the nation state of Israel (two big objectives achieved).

Aaaaaanyway.

With that all said, I'm still not suggesting the holocaust we've been told about in our history books was a completely fabricated/fictitious event.

Truth be told, I wasn't there so I really have no clue what actually happened (other than what I was taught in school and what I've read in books and on the internet).

The point I'm trying to make though, is that just because our mainstream sources of information are telling us it happened a certain way, doesn't mean it did and we certainly shouldn't be accepting that at face value without doing our own research and digging a little deeper to get to the truth.

Welcome to Avalon! (I'm only a little bit older than you here )

Your main point, if I understood correctly, seems to be that there is no evidence to prove that the holocaust ever happened.

Can we try to hone down your problem with evidence? If you can please identify which particular type of evidence it is that you feel able to disregard? Then maybe we can get to work at look at that more closely together.

Is it one of these?

• 30 million German documents stretching 25 kilometers freely available to the public in the holocaust archive, detailing the fate of 17 million victims of forced labour and the holocaust http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3005313.html
  
• 3 tons of records captured by the Allies, and submitted during the Nuremberg trials
  
• statements by eye witnesses and survivors
  
• statements by perpetrators
  
• testimony of Nazis on trial for war crimes
  
• precise record keeping by the Nazi party and the SS during the war
  
• online archive of 130,000 photographs (soon to be over 200,00) http://collections.yadvashem.org/pho...us/photos.html
  
• film footage shot by the Nazis
  
• architects plans, diagrams, charts...
  
• physical evidence of historical buildings
  
• personal diaries - Goebels and Hans Frank in particular
  
• reports and film evidence by the Allies
  
• mass graves
  
• artefacts http://go.fold3.com/holocaust_records/
  
• oral archives http://holocaust.umd.umich.edu/
  
• piles of eyeglasses, piles of shoes, piles of gold teeth, piles of burned corpses, piles of unburned corpses, piles of artificial limbs, piles of human hair, piles of ransacked luggage, piles of shaving-brushes, piles of combs, piles of pots and pans, piles of clothes….

[panopticon]

Posted by Andrew (here)
I would like to see this document from which this film was made and compare the two. For one is nothing without the other.

[Deleted added edit due to irrelevance]

I see Tony has already given a link to a translation.

Here's a link to pdf copies of a number of documents from that period (for example Bormann's July 11 1943 directive for 'a future overall solution', "einer künftigen Gesamtlösung", to not be referenced but rather for them to say that Jews were being given appropriate labour, so as to not alarm the population as per the concluding notes from the Wannsee Conference):
http://www.ghwk.de/wannsee/dokumente...erenz/?lang=gb

I've linked to the English version of the website for convenience however the documents are electronic copies of the originals and as such in German. There are also some audio clips of Eichmann's 1961 trial testimony (in German) and a translation of it here.

Hope this is helpful.

[Milneman]

Posted by Davidallany (here)

Posted by loungelizard (here)

Posted by Davidallany (here)
Not all winnings are actual winnings. How many groups and individuals are absolutly sure and confident in their rock-solid views? In my experience if one does't want to know, then there is no need to waste energy on informing and helping. The stuff one has and imagen to have can get in the way, after all how can one decide what truth is with just the tools of perception at our disposal. Yet there is hope, still.

I'm sorry but I can't understand quite what you are saying here, Davidallany. Please could you explain a little further?

Hi there loungelizard, one needs to be a good meditater to understand what I was saying.
But for your benefit, I was saying that it is difficult to see with just two eyes. Real seeing involves putting to use all the three eyes most of us have, otherwise our views are very narrow and the perception generated is incomplete and lacking.

Uhm...I'll try floating that the next time I write something someone doesn't understand..."You don't meditate enough."

Actually if you just apply common sense to what you said, I think (at least it seems to me) that you're saying that synthesis often ends up producing things that on initial evaluation might seem good, but end up being not so good.

eg: I'm making cookies. I like the way chocolate tastes, so I'm going to put in chocolate. I loved my grandmother too, and since I have some of her ashes (as she died and was cremated), I'm going to throw in some of Grandma as well because...well, she was good too!

And then wonder, after the cookies arrive, why they taste funny.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

And how many innocent Muslims or Muslim-looking were killed, arrested or made homeless because of what seems to be a Western Anti-semitism/Anti Muslim/Anti turban propaganda?
Who is to take the blame here? The British, the Americans or who? Who is worse than who and by what degree?

As I've stated at least once before, if you want to start that thread, I'd be tickled to jump on in and participate.

However, in this case, that's off topic.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Andrew (here)

Posted by OnyxKnight (here)
Andrew, its you making "the point" (one which you didn't explain). So yes, stand behind your words.

I am neutral in this discussion but have been called a holocaust denier threatened that they might knock on my door and called a troll from a gay and a jew lol

So it's a little biased.

From the film, "Gandhi":

I am a Muslim and a Hindu and a Christian and a Jew and so are all of you.

and...

Whenever I despair, I remember that the way of truth and love has always won. There may be tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they may seem invincible, but in the end, they always fail. Think of it: always.

and then the gay says:

If you sit on the fence, you're sadly deluded into thinking you're neutral. Not deciding is deciding.

(OT, is anyone else feeling sick after reading/posting here? Regardless of which side of the question you're on?)

[Milneman]

Alh02, welcome to Avalon! Wish I could be saying that in a thread that doesn't seem to be so peppery, but you've jumped into it...welcome welcome. :D

I could go into actual proof, I could go into reasons why I believe what I believe, but the bottom line is this: human beings prove over and over that genocide happens. It's still happening. So why is it unreasonable to think it's only just started in the 20th century?

The reason I think so many people get messed up is because they think we're saying old Adolf was the first.

Come on...really?

We're just going with the flow of the thread with the topic.

Do try and post elsewhere too...its not all this black...mess.

[loungelizard]

Posted by Milneman (here)

(OT, is anyone else feeling sick after reading/posting here? Regardless of which side of the question you're on?)

I initially experiencing quite a high rate of anxiety when I first started writing on this thread

Not so much now, as the debate has been - for the most part - civil and respectful.

[Milneman]

Dear Andrew,

There's been some misunderstanding here...something I think we can actually use in the course of this discussion to see some of what we're bantering back and forth more clearly.

I quote:

One question. Why would mass evacuation require Zyklon B?

Your hypothesis is wildly counter intuitive at best!

If I didn't know any better? I would say you were trolling!


I'm not saying you're trolling. I'm saying I disagree with what you're saying because it's a gross violation of the evidence that I have.

You jumped to that conclusion. Which is something, including myself, a LOT of people in the alt community just do. We want answers, desperately. So when we get collections of evidence, and we don't see clear lines between them, sometimes we fill them in. But that's an argument akin to "God of the Gaps"...or putting God in between the gaps to explain aspects of scientific principles we don't get (btw, I'm assuming you meditate enough to understand that ) KIDDING!

What I find interesting, and actually even more curious, is why you would jump so quickly to assuming that I did in fact call your behavior trolling? Why would someone sitting on the fence about this care one way or the other, unless they actually did have an opinion.

Dude...not just you, but anyone...if anybody ever thinks I've said something derogatory about them, or done an ad hominem (picking apart your argument by going right past the argument and attacking you personally), PM me...leave a message on my board, confront me. If that's what I've done, with or without knowing it, I will man up and publicly ask for your forgiveness. Look up in the thread. I screwed up in my frustration and posted a picture that had nothing to do with what we're talking about here...and when that was pointed out to me? I manned up and apologized in the thread, and I won't take the picture out of the post either.

However...I do get the impression that in your rush to judge my comments, you may have used the words "jew" and "gay" in a derogatory sense. Being that I can't read your emotional intent behind what you're posting, I'm going to assume in my judgement that you are an honourable man, and being an honourable man, if you meant those statements in that way you will apologize; and if not, clearly you have nothing to apologize for.

This is a very, very, painful topic for a lot of reasons for a lot of people. I myself have diven in because the history of the Reich is a passion of mine. I've read, researched, and collected books since I was in my teens. When I see things, statements, that seem to point to absolutes of evil or good, on either side, my cockles get up because as we all know, it is a very rare day indeed when things are exactly as they seem or exactly as they do not seem.

Again, I'm back to Jim's comments at the condo:

Who cares about numbers, it happened.

So I have a new question, since maybe what we could consider is approaching this issue from a different perspective, freshen things up, and maybe detach from the emotion of it all:

How exactly do you judge a degree of evil or good?

Remember we're talking in the context of the thread as described from the Reich side of things in World War II. Those are the terms I'm defining "evil" and "good" in to answer this question.

Did Hitler do good things? Sure. He built roads. He put people to work. He put some pride back into the German People.

What I want you to do is put the deeds Hitler did on one side of an imaginary scale, and then on the other side, put the deeds that you would consider evil. You decide what constitutes good and what constitutes evil. List your points, and let me know what your conclusions are.

Looking forward to seeing your results.

[Milneman]

Because we need to lighten up n' laugh....what you're not going to see is the last line from this episode from "Fawlty Towers", where the German gentleman says..."How did they win anyway?"

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0

[Redstar Kachina]

..........

[Andrew]

Posted by alh02 (here)

Anyway, as far as I'm aware Hitler was supported and funded by the Roman Catholic Church, the Rothschilds, the Rockerfeller's, the Bush's (among various other PTB families and organisations).

They always try fund some country or organisation to take control and if that doesn't work they go to War, we shouldn't just assume because of this fact that they are in cahoots together. I'm sure Hitler would of gladly taken there money as the NSADP was gaining momentum.

[Cidersomerset]

Is it one of these?
•30 million German documents stretching 25 kilometers freely available to the public in the holocaust archive, detailing the fate of 17 million victims of forced labour and the holocaust http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3005313.html

•3 tons of records captured by the Allies, and submitted during the Nuremberg trials

•statements by eye witnesses and survivors

•statements by perpetrators

•testimony of Nazis on trial for war crimes

•precise record keeping by the Nazi party and the SS during the war

•online archive of 130,000 photographs (soon to be over 200,00) http://collections.yadvashem.org/pho...us/photos.html

•film footage shot by the Nazis

•architects plans, diagrams, charts...

•physical evidence of historical buildings

•personal diaries - Goebels and Hans Frank in particular

•reports and film evidence by the Allies

•mass graves

•artefacts http://go.fold3.com/holocaust_records/

•oral archives http://holocaust.umd.umich.edu/

•piles of eyeglasses, piles of shoes, piles of gold teeth, piles of burned corpses, piles of unburned corpses, piles of artificial limbs, piles of human hair, piles of ransacked luggage, piles of shaving-brushes, piles of combs, piles of pots and pans, piles of clothes….

Thanks Loungelizard I thought of doing something like this....

[Cidersomerset]

Its still going on today....Is this truth or government propaganda, its certainly sickening !!



'They shoved people in baking ovens' Syrian rebels execute over 80 civilians

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=z3_UtSnJf3M

Wednesday 18th December 2013 at 03:36 By David Icke

[alh02]

Posted by loungelizard (here)
Welcome to Avalon! (I'm only a little bit older than you here )

Your main point, if I understood correctly, seems to be that there is no evidence to prove that the holocaust ever happened.

Can we try to hone down your problem with evidence? If you can please identify which particular type of evidence it is that you feel able to disregard? Then maybe we can get to work at look at that more closely together.

Is it one of these?

• 30 million German documents stretching 25 kilometers freely available to the public in the holocaust archive, detailing the fate of 17 million victims of forced labour and the holocaust http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3005313.html
  
• 3 tons of records captured by the Allies, and submitted during the Nuremberg trials
  
• statements by eye witnesses and survivors
  
• statements by perpetrators
  
• testimony of Nazis on trial for war crimes
  
• precise record keeping by the Nazi party and the SS during the war
  
• online archive of 130,000 photographs (soon to be over 200,00) http://collections.yadvashem.org/pho...us/photos.html
  
• film footage shot by the Nazis
  
• architects plans, diagrams, charts...
  
• physical evidence of historical buildings
  
• personal diaries - Goebels and Hans Frank in particular
  
• reports and film evidence by the Allies
  
• mass graves
  
• artefacts http://go.fold3.com/holocaust_records/
  
• oral archives http://holocaust.umd.umich.edu/
  
• piles of eyeglasses, piles of shoes, piles of gold teeth, piles of burned corpses, piles of unburned corpses, piles of artificial limbs, piles of human hair, piles of ransacked luggage, piles of shaving-brushes, piles of combs, piles of pots and pans, piles of clothes….

Hi loungelizard,

Thanks for the reply, that's a fine list you've made there

Thanks also for the offer to help me with my understanding of the facts, very much appreciated

Here's a list of your points and my thoughts/concerns regarding each of them respectively.

Any additional supporting evidence you cold provide to fill the gaps in my knowledge and satisfy my curiosity would be gratefully accepted and appreciated.

Here goes...

• 30 million German documents stretching 25 kilometers freely available to the public in the holocaust archive, detailing the fate of 17 million victims of forced labour and the holocaust http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3005313.html
  
  Wow, that's a big number when you look at it on paper. Still, I wonder how much of it could be considered irrefutable evidence that the Nazis were operating death camps rather than concentration camps and exterminating Jews by the million. Are you able to cite any documents specifically that might help to quell my scepticism?
  
  
• 3 tons of records captured by the Allies, and submitted during the Nuremberg trials
  
  Again, that's a big and impressive number. Do we have access to any of those documents, and if so was there any truly damning evidence to support the commonly accepted belief that the Nazis were systematically exterminating Jews?
  
  
• statements by eye witnesses and survivors
  
  Great, where can they be found? There's really nothing quite like hearing the personal accounts of those who were directly involved/affected.
  
  
• statements by perpetrators
  
  Perpetrators incriminating themselves? Why haven't I heard about this before... where can I find these statements?
  
  
• testimony of Nazis on trial for war crimes
  
  Again, great, nothing quite like hearing it straight from the horses moth (so to speak). Did any of them actually incriminate themselves or admit under oath that they were responsible for -or at least aware that- Jews were being exterminated in the concentration camps?
  
  
• precise record keeping by the Nazi party and the SS during the war
  
  Wonderful, where are the records that specifically document the extermination of Jews by the Nazis?
  
  
• online archive of 130,000 photographs (soon to be over 200,00) http://collections.yadvashem.org/pho...us/photos.html
  
  Excellent, exactly how many of those images would qualify as irrefutable the Nazis were exterminating Jews absolutely, 100%, for certain, no doubt about it? Can you perhaps show me just one?
  
  
• film footage shot by the Nazis
  
  Again, great, where can I find this footage? Please forgive my ignorance, but I certainly haven't seen any footage shot by Nazis depcting Nazis exterminating Jews.
  
  
• architects plans, diagrams, charts...
  
  Okay, of what exactly? Not sure I understand what you're referring to here. Diagrams of gas chambers? Perhaps you could provide some further clarification on this one for me?
  
  
• physical evidence of historical buildings
  
  Not sure what you're alluding to here, perhaps you could provide some specific examples of how these buildings in some way offer evidence that the Nazis were exterminating Jews? I can't imagine how a building might be able to do that but I'm certainly open to you explaining that for me.
  
  
• personal diaries - Goebels and Hans Frank in particular
  
  Awesome, bring those on. Got any specific excerpts or quotes where either of them spoke openly about how they were responsible for exterminating (or ordering the extermination) of millions of Jews?
  
  
• reports and film evidence by the Allies
  
  Err, were the Allies filming the Nazis as they were exterminating Jews? Because THAT would really be something. Please direct me to where I can find this film footage or that reports that document same.
  
  
• mass graves
  
  Does anyone actually know how those people died? Were they burned alive? Were their bodies burned after they had died? Did they die of starvation? Did they die of illness/disease? Did they die from exposure to poisonous gas? Were any autopsies performed to determine the specific cause of death for any of these people?
  
  
• artefacts http://go.fold3.com/holocaust_records/
  
  Okay, well, I took a quick look through the artefacts listed on that website but for some reason I wasn't able to find anything that even remotely resembled evidence that the Nazis were exterminating Jews. Did I miss something?
  
• oral archives http://holocaust.umd.umich.edu/
  
  Okay, I took a look, and found nothing at all in there where eye witness spoke specifically about watching Nazis exterminating Jews.
  
  
• piles of eyeglasses, piles of shoes, piles of gold teeth, piles of burned corpses, piles of unburned corpses, piles of artificial limbs, piles of human hair, piles of ransacked luggage, piles of shaving-brushes, piles of combs, piles of pots and pans, piles of clothes….
  
  Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned these piles of personal effect etc that have been uncovered really don't prove at all that the Nazis were exterminating Jews. Seems like a pretty big leap if you ask me.

Sorry, loungelizard, to be so picky. But as far as I can tell you have not provided any irrefutable evidence or proof to support you belief that the Nazis were exterminating Jews.... YET.

As far as I can tell, none of the evidence you cited thus far qualifies as irrefutable, undeniable proof.

Now, I'm not saying your wrong, only that the evidence you have offered as proof is just as flimsy and has just as many holes in it as the evidence that's been offered up by those who suspect the story of the holocaust (as told to us by TPTB) may not represent an accurate reflection of the truth.

At this point, I am still sitting on the fence... and I strongly suspect that is were I'll be staying unless you (or somebody else here) can come up with something more solid to back up the claims that have been made by mainstream historians and media.

I'm sure you're not done yet though You now have every opportunity to slap me in the face with some cold, hard, irrefutable, undeniable facts... perhaps you will surprise me with something exceptional?...

Well, I certainly hope so and eagerly anticipate your reply... fully expecting to have my current beliefs/understanding of this material shattered into a million pieces

[araucaria]

[QUOTE=alh02;773800]

Posted by loungelizard (here)
Welcome to Avalon! (I'm only a little bit older than you here )

Hi alh02. Not to get caught in the crossfire, but before you can get proof of anything you would need to establish the existence of a real entity behind that screen name and avatar of yours. Your membership (whatever that means) of this forum is marked as 'provisional' (whatever that means),and when it becomes full, it will only be a keyboard character identifier of a remote putative source of text on my screen here.

Surely you can do better than that.
Keep posting and reading, it might help.

[alh02]

[QUOTE=araucaria;773806]

Posted by alh02 (here)

Posted by loungelizard (here)
Welcome to Avalon! (I'm only a little bit older than you here )

Hi alh02. Not to get caught in the crossfire, but before you can get proof of anything you would need to establish the existence of a real entity behind that screen name and avatar of yours. Your membership (whatever that means) of this forum is marked as 'provisional' (whatever that means),and when it becomes full, it will only be a keyboard character identifier of a remote putative source of text on my screen here.

Surely you can do better than that.
Keep posting and reading, it might help.

Thanks for the friendly advice... I think.

I realise I'm new here, and perhaps I should take a step back before jumping right into the fray (so to speak) on a thread like this.

But alas, it's in my nature to speak what's on my mind and not hold back.

And if that means I make a fool of myself in the process and someone is forced to come in and set me straight/put me in my place... then I'm okay with that

It's all part of learning and growing, of which I still have plenty (of both) to do

[loungelizard]

@alh02

And that's a fine list of requests for me to do all the work !

The reason I said "we can get to work" is that we need to consider this together. I am not here as your free researcher lol.

I shall spend some time drawing together resources for you to consider but...I need to be convinced that your interest is not disingenuous before I devote any time to this.

At the moment, I'm very wary: nothing you have written has reassured me of your sincere and honest wish to dig deeper.

If your mind is already made up, please be brave enough to say that. Words such as "I haven't decided yet" are easy to say...but speak volumes.