The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by chocolate (here)
When it comes to dreams, I have managed to except meaning from them in a very strange way. I know for myself that nothing I dream has a literal meaning, and that seemingly unrelated dreams are connected. Yesterday I had a situation when I would see flashes of dreams forming a picture or a concept. That is how I managed to know certain things about certain issues I had raised in my mind.

As I've mentioned before, the higher a dimension one goes to (and most dreams, I would say, occur in a higher dimension than the physical), the less specific things get. This means the meanings can't be entirely literal.

And as Tom Campbell explains at great length in the second video in post #1491, although higher-dimensional "forces" in some ways have some control over what happens in the physical, it's also true that what manifests in the physical is often random even though the more probable is still the more likely.

[chocolate]

I think before I pose my questions I can do more of the exercises, and if I get to encounter more problems will come back and share them.
So far I managed to get one glimpse of everything while experimenting with shaman journeying, when I encounter the vibrations and the pull, and I think after that I managed to get a brief Out of body.
Yesterday I got a very strange light-headed-ness, and felt what should be the solar plexus pull (as you have described it), but I think I am a bit an opinionated fella, and have to figure out my own practical ways.
I will do so, at this stage there isn't all that much else to keep me occupied/ to keep me interested.
I also do read this thread quite carefully.
I know of a few more exercises, and I am certain after some experimentation things will align themselves.
It is a sort of a familiar feeling, that I still haven't gotten to experience it fully, but I recognize the road to there.

Thank you, TraineeHuman.

[chocolate]

TraineeHuman, I am still reading your posts from the past, and although I try not to comment, after a few moments these past few days I came to the realization I actually have a problem staying grounded more than having an OB experience, because I am mostly travelling, as you have described it in lengths in past posts. I am not saying I am a special kind of special, but that could be partially true.

I am quite susceptible to external influence, coming from a non-physical 'dimensions', and sometimes that could be a problem for me.
Few days ago I experience that type of an influence, which in itself I am sure was only beneficial to me, but it was also very dramatic for me. I thought I was about to collapse on the floor, so I had to lay in my bed for a while, than do a standing mediation, and drink and eat some food.
Later on I think I recognized what was happening, but it felt so strong at the time, that initially had me in a bit of a panic.
It has happened before in a milder version, which helped me deal with it better.

Thinking back I have the sense I am mostly floating around instead of staying well centered in my body. Probably that is a reason I so much enjoy physical activity, it grounds me better than anything else, or my sleeping magnetic cover, which also gets my inner self well inside opposed to floating above me.
This is probably related to the fact that I stay in concept world more than in physical around here (connected to my work, my inner explorations, or the way I just am). Or because I feel better at home out there than 'in here'.
In my past this has lead to some very difficult experiences, one of which was (almost, if not a complete) NDE. The way I feel right now, I sense I am not very interested in the 'living' as much as in continuing upward (or for the most honest out there, I more welcome physical death than physical living, not in a suicidal way, but as a means of ending something that doesn't feel quite right here and now). This is something completely opposed to the 'roller coaster' way of life, mentioned on occasion. but to see me in that light one needs to understand me better, and words are not the best tool for it. I think I can continue in that fashion, longer than on the up-and down kind of way, which proved to be unnatural for me in the past. I have a great joy being around stable, balanced individuals and situations, and have real trouble dealing with instability in every form or shape.

I am also not entirely sure I experience the internal loop-dialogue you have mentioned (the repeated reminder of activities related to physical survival). That is one of the reasons I could have been hit a few times in my life walking around and crossing streets. These days I have somehow switched an inner protection while navigating my movements. It keeps me safe on most occasions.
It hasn't been like that all the time, but now, because I am in a period when I don't need to fit into a physical reality of constant work and travel, I feel relaxed to be my normal self, and that in itself had a profound effect on healing wounds and fixing externally-created inner problems.

I certainly enjoyed the 'descension' part you have mentioned on several occasions. It is how I feel about the process, too.

I wanted to write a few things about Tom Campbell's take on the world (well, my own take on what I see), but I am not sure it belongs out in the open, or fits this thread precisely, so if I manage to write anything, I will probably send it as a pm.
I certainly have no desire to write about it on the forum. May be I learned a few more things while being around, but one thing I sensed is that almost everyone seems to be in a need of being distracted, repeatedly and constantly, which doesn't correspond to the way I feel, so I just don't see myself fitting into that reality much longer. I tried to fit in, but it created a few problems here, as it has been with me in the physical times and again, and I realized, I need to fit no more.

I will see how this comes along.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by chocolate (here)
these past few days I came to the realization I actually have a problem staying grounded more than having an OB experience ...

I am quite susceptible to external influence, coming from a non-physical 'dimensions', and sometimes that could be a problem for me.
Few days ago I experience that type of an influence, which in itself I am sure was only beneficial to me, but it was also very dramatic for me. I thought I was about to collapse on the floor, so I had to lay in my bed for a while, than do a standing mediation, and drink and eat some food.
Later on I think I recognized what was happening, but it felt so strong at the time, that initially had me in a bit of a panic.
It has happened before in a milder version, which helped me deal with it better.

Thinking back I have the sense I am mostly floating around instead of staying well centered in my body. Probably that is a reason I so much enjoy physical activity, it grounds me better than anything else, or my sleeping magnetic cover, which also gets my inner self well inside opposed to floating above me.
This is probably related to the fact that I stay in concept world more than in physical around here (connected to my work, my inner explorations, or the way I just am). Or because I feel better at home out there than 'in here'.
In my past this has lead to some very difficult experiences, one of which was (almost, if not a complete) NDE. The way I feel right now, I sense I am not very interested in the 'living' as much as in continuing upward (or for the most honest out there, I more welcome physical death than physical living, not in a suicidal way, but as a means of ending something that doesn't feel quite right here and now). This is something completely opposed to the 'roller coaster' way of life, mentioned on occasion. but to see me in that light one needs to understand me better, and words are not the best tool for it. I think I can continue in that fashion, longer than on the up-and down kind of way, which proved to be unnatural for me in the past. I have a great joy being around stable, balanced individuals and situations, and have real trouble dealing with instability in every form or shape.

I am also not entirely sure I experience the internal loop-dialogue you have mentioned (the repeated reminder of activities related to physical survival). That is one of the reasons I could have been hit a few times in my life walking around and crossing streets. These days I have somehow switched an inner protection while navigating my movements. It keeps me safe on most occasions.
It hasn't been like that all the time, but now, because I am in a period when I don't need to fit into a physical reality of constant work and travel, I feel relaxed to be my normal self, and that in itself had a profound effect on healing wounds and fixing externally-created inner problems.

I certainly enjoyed the 'descension' part you have mentioned on several occasions. It is how I feel about the process, too.

.... May be I learned a few more things while being around, but one thing I sensed is that almost everyone seems to be in a need of being distracted, repeatedly and constantly, which doesn't correspond to the way I feel, so I just don't see myself fitting into that reality much longer. I tried to fit in, but it created a few problems here, as it has been with me in the physical times and again, and I realized, I need to fit no more.

I will see how this comes along.

Yes! Being too enamored with higher realms and not staying fully in your physical body. That's a really big one. In retrospect, it's what my very life used to be about, for over half my life. No doubt the details were quite different from your life, but basically it was that one issue. I've mentioned before that I've had over a hundred spiritual and/or psychological teachers that I worked with intensively for months at least in each case. And just about every last one of them hounded me so much and seemingly picked on me hugely and singled me out in what I usually regarded as unfair ways at the time. But they intuitively knew roughly what they were doing. Even my mother would forever nag me about my supposed lack of practicality. Actually I have Capricorn rising, which does give me some practicality. But I'm sure what she meant too was that I was somehow so enamored with the transcendental, and certainly the non-physical, that I would inevitably neglect certain physical requirements that it wasn't in my best interest, in this world, to ignore. And feedback from friends and acquaintances too. Things like: "You're not really as physically clumsy as you seem to be determined to act." Not that I experienced accidents with traffic or whatever like you did, chocolate.

After I got into regular astral, then mental projection, it got even worse than before, for at least ten years. It's kind of ironic what happens once one does learn how to very readily get into higher realms. Others may have to work for years to begin to do the same. Yet the temptation to then not live totally in the physical world becomes so awfully great. I guess many people who experience NDEs experience something of very much the same thing while they're in the NDE. They don't want to come back into this vale of suffering. But they do, usually because it seems they agree they have little or no choice at the time. I've observed that psychotic individuals are simply individuals who've permanently and unknowingly thrown the "off" switch and in effect separated from their body even though they're not physically dead. But we need to be stronger than that. Escapism like that is too easy -- not that I'm denying that psychotic individuals bring great pain on themselves.

Along with the (often unconscious or only half-perceived) alienation I had from staying fully in the physical prison planet world, for decades I felt a strong alienation from work. Not that I didn't usually work hard, but I always felt that I deserved much better jobs and that I deserved to be paid or to make considerably more. After all, wasn't I subjecting myself to degrading ridiculousness and pettiness -- and for what? For money, but that seemed so unimportant.

I believe an ultimately somewhat similar resistance to having to be in the prison planet lies behind most people's (the majority of the population's) failure to stay grounded much of the time -- but quite subconsciously, for most.

Ultimately, descension, in its fullest forms, is an extremely long process with many stages and twists. So many. At what point, if ever, to give one example, does an individual come to realize that all their suffering comes from, and is equivalent to, their failure to totally accept reality -- including the physical reality they find themselves in? However, it seems to me that descension is also tied very closely to liberation from having to necessarily return to this physical world. How else can one truly fully accept and understand the life of other individuals?

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by chocolate (here)
I wanted to write a few things about Tom Campbell's take on the world (well, my own take on what I see), but I am not sure it belongs out in the open, or fits this thread precisely, so if I manage to write anything, I will probably send it as a pm.
I certainly have no desire to write about it on the forum. May be I learned a few more things while being around, but one thing I sensed is that almost everyone seems to be in a need of being distracted, repeatedly and constantly, which doesn't correspond to the way I feel, so I just don't see myself fitting into that reality much longer. I tried to fit in, but it created a few problems here, as it has been with me in the physical times and again, and I realized, I need to fit no more.

I will see how this comes along.

I wonder if part of what you don't want to discuss publicly even though Tom Campbell speaks about it has to do with the spiritually enlightened understanding. When I was sixteen I really did experience spiritual enlightenment. I strongly suspect Tom Campbell has experienced it too. One of the most central insights that true enlightenment brings is that reality is not in any way like a body, or like an object, or many bodies, or objects. Anyone who denies this surely hasn't experienced true enlightenment. It's as simple as that, I'm afraid. Jeffrey (some, if not all, of whose threads have been extraordinary and wonderful) has recently started a thread where he describes everything in the universe as a type of "body", and I believe he means to include all levels of the non-physical in that. What could I say in response to that? What could any enlightened person say?

The Buddha tried to explain this, and most of the unenlightened completely misinterpreted what he was saying, both in his day and even today. Then the Buddha reincarnated as J. Krishnamurti. I once saw a video of K. talking about the very same subject at great length. Present at the talk were at least five members of the Philosophy Departments of Oxford and Cambridge Universities. And even they completely misunderstood. They kept "deducing" that K. was denying that there is anything that survives death. He insisted he wasn't denying that, at all.

I could go on and on with examples from genuinely enlightened individuals. If such an individual takes the trouble to accurately conceptualize the most central insight in enlightenment, one way to describe it is as follows. The concept of "substance" -- which is the most central and basic concept of Western thought and Western philosophy -- totally and radically fails to capture true reality. Instead, we need a foundational concept like "pure relatedness" or something like that. I greatly admire the way Tom Campbell is trying to guide people towards that realization based purely on very honest, tough-minded analysis of the implications of what quantum physics and twentieth century physics have uncovered.

[TraineeHuman]

Many individuals have communicated to me or to us that they've been making real progress in some (inner) areas, but they find that astral travel/projection eludes them, or only happens rarely no matter what they try.

On the best evidence I've found so far, I still consider that the best and safest preparation is to develop a very solid "skill" level in meditation first. Secondly, though, I remain convinced that the best way to learn is through direct "transmission" from someone else who has mastered astral projection. But what do I mean by direct "transmission"?

That term is familiar to practitioners (terrible term!) of Buddhism and Zen and at least some types of Yoga and Sufism. For instance, the Buddha chose his successor when he gave his totally silent Flower "Sermon". The Buddha held up a sunflower and communicated silently, nonverbally. He wasn't giving a "sermon" on appreciating flowers, of course. And his successor was the one who was able to very fully "receive" everything he was transmitting. I'd like to describe some of what this means to me in the light of my own experience. Also, in Zen the highest wisdom is considered to be passed on entirely through some kind of silent one-to-one transmission.

There's an unspoken rule that any meditation or esoteric guru -- Eastern or Western --, and almost any spiritual teacher or healer or whatever, "transmits" to everyone in the audience when he or she gives a public lecture or class or darshan, etc. What I have found this means in practice is that such an individual will be an advanced meditator and will spend perhaps several hours in meditation just prior to the lecture/class/darshan/discussion. As a result, those attending will definitely perceive a reflection of something higher within themselves. The effects of that will typically last for three days. During that time they will feel more joy and inner integration and peace, and will feel very good when they wake the next three mornings.

I've researched this a little, and found that the effects only last for three days or so. Still, during that time the individual does have a special window to make some personal breakthroughs -- if they truly face themselves. But there's a strong tradition, particularly in the East, that to sit before a very enlightened being -- even in a large group -- is supposedly of extreme benefit on its own. I believe I've found this is not true for most, unfortunately. On the other hand, after whole man-years spent developing the ability to "read" any person nonverbally -- and I don't mean on any intellectual interpretation of body language, but I do mean directly nonverbal -- I can say as follows. A person like myself can indeed "read" and absorb a great deal of what is being transmitted in such a situation. That can indeed be hugely life-changing -- if I take action very soon after, if I put the higher consciousness into manifestation in my life in the world. I have been in situations where either only I, or I and a small number of others, could "read" a full version of the transmission. In each case the guru or healer etc knew exactly who had received how much.

The good news is, it does seem to be possible for the entire skill of astral travel to be "transmitted" directly if you can find the right teacher, in person. And you don't need to be super-aware or anything like that, either. When I was twenty-nine I would go to a weekly psychic circle where the 80+ year old teacher could somehow "lift" the entire class into the astral, in no more than one or two minutes, and take them traveling there as a group. Maybe that teacher did have a rare skill level. But everyone who came to her weekly class would travel successfully, usually even on the first night they came -- though the nausea in the stomach and the intensity around the heart would take some time to be outgrown.

Anyway, I'm here to say that such teachers obviously seem to exist. I'd like to encourage everyone to seek one out. It didn't take much for me to find that particular lady. I just had to ask the right person who they could recommend for a psychic development class. Mind you, if the class is very expensive, I'd be very suspicious. One class, or two at most, is plenty for such a teacher to demonstrate to you that they undeniably do have the ability to "lift" you into astral travel. If they don't, walk away. If they practice some kind of "guided visualization", in my experience that's a sure sign of a lack of true talent and you should keep away.

[chocolate]

TraineeHuman, than you for the careful examination of what I presented.

The reason why I don't want to discuss what I feel, or think, regarding my understanding of reality, out in the open as on a forum, is a very personal reason, that I've only felt so far (without the necessary logic to back it up).
But you managed to clear it for me in a simple way.
I guess my hesitation to speak comes from the concept that some thoughts, or truths, or whatever one might call them, need to be communicated only to people who can appreciate and understand them fully, without distorting them in any damaging way, as you have described already (Buddha and the flower). You know how many people feel about Krishnamurti? In their logical explanations he is nothing, but a charlatan. I never saw him in this way, but it is a know fact, that sometimes one needs to have the necessary base of understanding to view reality in the intended way.
Same can be said for many past 'masters'.

I know how that process of non-verbal transmission of ideas/concepts feels like, because I personally experienced it when I was initiated in Reiki by a person higher on the Reiki practice path. It felt completely right at the time, although my logical self was suspicious. I feel the same constantly with some normal people, like me, given the opportunity to meet them in person. I myself do it also, I have been told.

At present I feel all knowledge is accessible for anyone, but not everyone is open for it in the same way. That is why, if I start talking about my 'whatever understanding', I would take away the choice of everyone else to get to their own conclusion(s). And I think life is just about that, finding your own explanations and concepts that work for your circumstances.

I feel sometimes compelled to do some talking, when I see people worried about this place (the Earth) being a prison, or that 'life' is a form of a prison, or that it is a farming operation, about all those mean aliens, and dark overlords, and so forth.

From what I have come to see, it isn't literary that, at all. I know I am not 'enlightened', so I cannot say, you have to trust me, because I am the enlightened master.

Besides, I am really tired of everyone (except you here!) using words with so elusive and subjective meaning, that the moment I see those words I switch off completely from what has been presented. One of the reasons I am still reading your thread is mainly because you have taken the long road to clarify a lot in the process from your perspective. I may not understand everything fully, or at least some parts do seem more fuzzy than others, but I appreciate the care and the respect for the subject and for the viewer/reader.

I read through Jeffrey's posts yesterday, and I saw where he is heading (which is a path many have explored). But even though many have walked before him, or me, or us on the same path, every time a new person advances on it, more trees release the scent and the leaves of spring, as you had written about it some time in the past.

In my understanding I can say I am on Tom Campbell's side, except for a major detail. He mentions the computer with the button, but he spends less time talking about the person pressing the button. That is where I would start. I have a very conceptual, non-materialistic material explanation. A lot of what I feel has been expressed in buddhism, or so I think having some limited knowledge of that. So my way is not unique, or first of its kind, but it seems to be very practical and gives me hope in times when hope seems to be lost for many people.
I have my trust in life that if I have to speak up, I will be given the opportunity, or the like-minded people to share this with.

I am practicing my astral travel ways, TraineeHuman. It will come the day when I will be fully 'out there'

[chocolate]

When I was reading your few posts today, I had the sense of a silent question being posed, so I will try to say as much as I can, spread probably through out several posts/days.

Recently I read an article about an artificial hand being developed that would give the sense of touch to people who have lost their natural limbs.
When we think about our bodies, I think we need to think about sensations and information more than actual material parts. For me the human body is like that glove with sensors being attached to it, so that the hand and the mind can experience the current reality in which the glove is positioned. In certain perspective, yes, one can think of the body as a prison, if one feels that way temporarily, but in my own reality the body is the sensor that creates the whole experience. Sometimes it is not 'perfect' the way we think we need it to be, but if one learns to be in communication with the body, one can see its real importance and role in this existence. That is why we need to take proper care of the physical, and of the physiological aspects of our experiential parts here.

I have read in the past the idea of 'the suffering', but for me it is not exactly suffering, not at all. Please, note than those words come form someone who is not all that excited about staying alive! So imagine how it should feel if someone is well in tune with his body, and feels the surge for life.

Having said all of the above, I need to note that your explanations about the relationship between body - mental self - soul - ego - Higher self, etc (I am not correct in my labeling here and in the correct sequence, just mentioning what comes to my mind), I will not repeat, because I am not an expert in those areas. I sense most of what I understood from your words seems valid for me.

Tom Campbell describes this reality as digital, but I see it as an expression of electromagnetism, as if our holding forces are the same that are created by the computer in his explanations. I cannot use words as digital, or holographic anymore, but they seem to run really close to what seems true for me.
With that clarified, I will use the concept of 'virtual reality simulation' for our Earth life here. For me it is more of a concept than a real material 'thing'.

Our lives are a duration of this simulation, while our bodies are the shells/avatars/ that the mind above us (the one that is pressing the button of the computer so to speak) occupies as a glove to sense and experience. That is how from the perspective of this higher person above our time here has a meaning only while we are being functional, and when the stage of this simulation runs its course for each individual person here, and for his corresponding operating mind above, we return to where we come from.

Tom Campbell explains in great deal the rendering process of the simulation, but in order to understand him one needs to have done that in real life. With a little bit of advanced imagination a still rendering turns into a full life circle easily. I work in architecture, and making renderings of spaces is what I do, so this concept is easily accessible for me. But I cannot explain everything to someone who hasn't seen the logic of it, I guess.

Having said all of the above, nothing new as you have seem, I can easily say that this 'life' we have agreed to experience here is not a punishment, or a prison, or a suffering, although it may seem like that sometimes form our current life situation 'on Earth'.
It is a just a way to experience. And the part that does matter, the one thing that animates the bodies, apart from the electrical signals of the shells, is not from this reality, and cannot be accessed by this reality. Thus all the talk about the mean aliens trapping our souls, is in a way a simplistic way of skewing the real thing. That is the part I also have seen you have come to understand, and I am not afraid to state the same on your thread. But I will not go and speak about it anywhere else, because I am not in the correct state of mind to battle with others.

I sometimes see this image of a large room or space, with our Higher Selves sitting/standing/being, around engaged in the virtual reality experience.

I will end my post for today here, and will try to pick up the subject tomorrow. If you, TH, are okay with me doing so.

[TraineeHuman]

I should probably explain that when I recently used the phrase "prison planet" and also "vale of suffering", I basically meant that from the (illusory) point of view of most people , life in the physical world really is rather like a prison sentence. But yes, I agree that's not the truth, as you eloquently explain, chocolate.

I also partly had in mind, though, how life in the physical world does bring physical bodily pain at times. I recently turned 64, and the older one gets the more one has little choice, if one is sensible, but to pay great attention to one's health. And even then there are physical discomforts or pains or weaknesses that one isn't always totally free of, at an age such as mine.

Also, I see enlightenment as just the beginning, the first step, in a way. Just a return to our true state. I've seen so much nonsense written about enlightenment, such as "Anyone who says they're enlightened ipso facto can't be", and so on. Yes, sadly it seems to be beyond many people's reach, and yes, it takes enormous work for most to get there. But really, it's just the first step. There's such a long journey to go through beyond that point, with so many twists and stages along the way. Which is why I don't indulge in embarrassment or inhibition about mentioning that I've reached that first step. Big deal. By the way, your explanation that you know that all psychological/emotional suffering is ultimately unreal, or based on misperception of reality, is surely the essence of an enlightened take on things.

[chocolate]

I feel compelled to clarify I found nothing in your words to disagree with, and everything I tried to referred to in my last post was based on what I have read on the forum as a whole, and what I have experienced in my own life, again as a whole. It might have sounded a bit differently, but I didn't have anything specific in mind. I operate almost always form a point of view that is more general. That could often lead to a bit of a misunderstanding.

The more correct phrase probably to start my post could have been to say that I felt a silent approval to write my opinion.

I still hold my position of being not-enlightened.
I come from science, several of them, and I come from non-religion, several of them, but I did not find much excitement, or should I say, comfort in any single one of them, until I managed to take pieces from everything to make my own picture. That is one of the reasons I don't try to follow any scientific approach when it comes to figuring out this life. It seems to me we need certain amount of science, and spirituality, in order to reach a level of wisdom, if I may, or a level of simplicity in the way we think of the whole.

Yesterday I was looking at the top of the forum page, where it is said 'where science and spirituality meet", and I felt how all my doubts, and all remaining traces of feeling unsettled, evaporated.
It was a good feeling. I wish more of us could experience it, or I wish I could share that feeling with everybody.
Again, I don't refer to you, TH, for I sense you feel in much of the same way as I do.

~~~

I probably should leave all of this at that.
I will send a pm with the rest of what I was trying to bring about, including the point where I discovered why all of this has to do with OBEs, and you can decide what part of it, and how to share it here. I've written it today, but will need a day or so to finalize it.

~~~

We live in a beautiful world, the way I came to see it. It is a great illusion, and quite imperfect, but still, quite beautiful.

[Jeffrey]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
I wonder if part of what you don't want to discuss publicly even though Tom Campbell speaks about it has to do with the spiritually enlightened understanding. When I was sixteen I really did experience spiritual enlightenment. I strongly suspect Tom Campbell has experienced it too. One of the most central insights that true enlightenment brings is that reality is not in any way like a body, or like an object, or many bodies, or objects. Anyone who denies this surely hasn't experienced true enlightenment. It's as simple as that, I'm afraid. Jeffrey (some, if not all, of whose threads have been extraordinary and wonderful) has recently started a thread where he describes everything in the universe as a type of "body", and I believe he means to include all levels of the non-physical in that. What could I say in response to that? What could any enlightened person say?

Hello, TraineeHuman! I've only just now read this, and I feel like there's an opportunity here.

I feel like what's been written in the thread you are referring to has been misunderstood, and it's because it's difficult to communicate the concept clearly for a number of reasons.

Firstly, some definitions need to be clarified. I think a mutual understanding about what a particular term means is important for clear communication, and it would be helpful for me to learn how to communicate ideas more clearly.

Everyone has their own unique definition of a term of course.

For me, a body is a collection of interacting parts that work together to sustain some greater whole. This whole has an emergent intelligence that is greater than the sum of it's parts.

A body doesn't have to resemble a physical human body; it doesn't have to resemble the body of any animal or plant either. It's the characteristic of a coherent cooperation between the parts of the body to maintain itself. This is organization. I guess a body is really an organization, which indicates intelligent cooperation.

Another characteristic of a body is that it has a mind. For me, the key characteristic of mind is the ability to relay information and energy throughout a network in a meaningful way. A network being a system of interconnected parts in this case. Most of the networks of mind are branched filaments in my opinion. Also, crystalline structures can relay information and energy. They can also store information and energy, which is another key characteristic of mind -- to store memory.

Yes, the non-physical fits within this pattern too because it precedes the physical in terms of pattern and form.

That is what is meant by the universe operating like a body. It sustains itself by cooperating parts, which themselves are bodies. Bodies have minds as well. The isn't confined in the head either, it can exist throughout the whole body. The idea is that the entire universe, physical and non-physical, exists as a nested hierarchy of bodies and it has a mind. This mind exists as the collection of minds that make it up. It too has an intelligence that is greater than the sum of it's parts.

This would be the ultimate concept of a higher God, with form. There's also the idea of things without form. Which couldn't even be considered things, but that's one of the unfortunate shortcomings of language.

Things with form are all objects. They are a concrete reality for the level of mind experiencing them as a part of their reality (unique to their level of perception). Therefore they are objects that interact together within the body on that level of the nested hierarchy.

Here's a major point. The things in our mind -- ideas, thoughts, and the like -- are illusory abstractions about those objects around us. The objects are real, but our perception of them isn't. This is because the reality is distorted by the structure of the mind of the observer. Each mind is slightly different and is shaped in ways unique to that individuals experience.

If we take that precept and apply it to the whole, zooming out of this nested hierarchy as high as we can imagine, then we all become abstractions within the ultimate mind of which we are a part. Which means we are ultimately nothing more than the play of light within the dreaming mind of an unfathomable reality above us and everything really is an illusion.

That's not the level we are at right now, but since the entire pattern is maintained throughout each level that knowledge is a part of us. Just like a cell keeps the knowledge of the whole body within it's center -- the nucleus -- we keep this knowledge at our center as a spiritual being.

The mind and body grow from and around this center. This center is like the pupil of an eye, it's like a doorway where light flows through. The mind is like the splintered, colored muscles that form the iris. The soul is like the lens of the eye, it distorts the light in conjunction with the muscles operating the iris. The mind and the soul change the way reality is perceived. They are our instruments of perception just like the eye is an instrument of perception for our physical body.

Reality is not like a body, but the physical and non-physical universe that exist to experience reality, they are like a body. The body is a part of that reality, because the body wouldn't exist if there were no reality to experience.

Out of body experiences wouldn't be possible without a mind and a soul to perceive. They constrict, dilate, weave, and distort reality. It's in this manner that objects are differentiated. A prism takes a beam of white light and distorts it into different colors. It differentiates and unpacks the implicate order contained within the white light. It splits the light into different objects. This is what the soul does, then the mind twists and weaves those objects in different ways. This is our perception.

Hopefully, this clarifies the way my mind has perceived and made sense of the world around/within me. This is an ongoing and ever-changing process of course. So, it would be helpful and constructive to listen to alternate perceptions and feedback!

Thanks

[chocolate]

Jeffrey, I am not TH, but the way it came across to me at that particular post, it was that he was actually prizing you! ( ), and asking me to clarify my POV. At least that is how I felt about it, without allowing personal feelings from my side to get involved.
I had my own theory going on and I was only hinting at the time, related to Tom Campbell.

We had the conversation started sometime back.

TH, I have finished part 2, saved and sent. In no way I see it being 100% relevant to your space here, that is why I haven't posted it.

Thank you again for your patience!

[Jeffrey]

Posted by chocolate (here)
Jeffrey, I am not TH, but the way it came across to me at that particular post, it was that he was actually prizing you! ( ), and asking me to clarify my POV. At least that is how I felt about it, without allowing personal feelings to be involved.
I was only hinting at the time, related to Tom Campbell.

We had the conversation started sometime back.

TH, I have finished part 2, saved and sent. In no way I see it being 100% relevant to your space here, that is why I haven't posted it.

Thank you again for your patience!

Chocolate! Hello :D

Yes, I reached out to TH for a perspective based on what I had read of his experiences. I didn't feel like I had expressed the ideas clearly enough in the COSM thread. The above post isn't a rebuttal, just an attempt at clarifying a concept about bodies.

Thank you both! I'm still very curious about what you feel and think. I also appreciate it

PS - I enjoy listening to Tom Campbell too ... thanks again ... I'm now wondering whether the post should be moved? If it doesn't feel appropriate for the thread theme just let me know, I may move the post over to the COSM thread anyways (or just cross-post it).

[TraineeHuman]

Jeffrey, the topic of "what is a body really?" is a fascinating one. I guess because Matter and Spirit are ultimately one, there would possibly need to be some notion of "(meta-)body" that applies universally -- though you say yourself that the fullest reality lies beyond any "body".

The experience of all the great mystics has been that most of what there really is is formless. So, it would be necessary to stretch the term "structure" so it covers "things" which are quite utterly formless. It would also have to cover pure emptiness, which all mystics also directly and very vividly experience -- not as the vacuum of science but as, paradoxically, the most real and intelligent "thing" there is. Personally I don't at the moment see how any notion of "structure" could begin to do that. I guess "organization" is important, but not with many of the connotations that word "normally" carries. The point is that mystics engage hugely with the formless, and even with the universal (including the formless but going even further in that "direction"), and that's where all the "action" silently and ever so mysteriously originates from. I believe that for me and any true mystic, the cosmic (including the formless) needs to be the starting point and the base and the primary area of attention, conceptually. It's not OK for me for someone to say that we don't or somehow can't know or discuss the formless, let alone the Absolute. But for me, everything that lies outside the Absolute, let alone the formless, is like the tiniest dot in comparison to all the rest.

You seem to be saying you realize some or all of this, and that you agree with chocolate and myself. But for me, it's not enough just to say that the world of forms is the teeniest tiniest illusion really if we are honest. What's needed -- and I believe what's very helpful -- is to talk at some level of detail about what lies beyond that illusion. That's what I've been trying to do most of the time in this thread. And I don't agree with the notion that it's entirely unsayable, not at all. Words carry meanings with them that point far beyond the sayable. We are all magical beings.

Yes, the Higher Mind (or Self) does adopt a particular form for interacting with things in the world of form, even though in its essence it's quite formless. Something kind of similar is even true of Source. But the particular form each Higher Mind chooses to adopt isn't all there is to the Higher Mind, by any means.

Again, ultimately the only "mind" there is, as far as I know, is actually the "emptiness" I mentioned. And as far as I know, it's absolutely everything there is -- anywhere or when, and also beyond all place and time. There's only one mind in the entire universe, and even beyond that. (When I talk of each person's Higher Mind, that too is ultimately just a metaphor, like "the body".)

As chocolate has in effect said, and as you say, our "physical body" is really an illusion because really we just have the physical senses. Turn off your physical senses and -- as far as you know -- there's no longer any physical body there, though there are still the senses. We are really all the universe playing a game of limiting itself for now, but we've managed to forget that. But I want to talk about the (cosmic, formless) Universe.

[GuyFox]

I am still reading through this interesting thread.

I think this recent interview (that I did) and posted on Youtube fits well here

Introduction to RV and Astral Projection

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Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=XJlgnOV9HkQ

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[TraineeHuman]

The Higher Mind sees no conflict with different theories, about anything. The Higher Mind never has been through a Fall. It's only interested in creating and collaborating, basically. Not in putting on blinkers. The ordinary, separative mind is preoccupied with claiming to have the best and only version of the truth. It tries to deny or condemn all competing positions, and to prove that they're definitely inferior. For it, everything that's different has to be false. Not so at all the HM, which is what it is that gets released at the earliest stage of enlightenment. I mean -- lightening one's load really does involve dropping a great deal of nonsense. Whew! (This is still very, very far from Source and its Mind, though.)

So, there's this whole major side to the HM of "do your own thing" or "whatever (turns you on)", and so forth. The HM happily concedes to every theory and view and position and attitude its right to have a place. (A bit like the PA Forum, perhaps.) The HM allows the whole struggle for "survival of the fittest" among conflicting views to just play itself out. It embraces them all, but also watches to note which ones perhaps win out more. The thing is, though, the HM has flipped over into emphasizing the underlying oneness that's the glue holding everything together. That, rather than a state of collision or conflict with every other individual or being or view. Are you ready for that leap, dear reader? This isn't an intellectual or theoretical act. No, this is the great line to cross. I mean, it's the portal to the HM! Simple as that.

On the other hand, even with all that understood and imbibed, I'm happy to criticize any view or position that leads to excessive narrowness. A very major form of dumbing down throughout the twentieth century has been the view that you are nothing more than a physical body. (Not a body that's manifested by something infinite that gives rise to Life.) Not only that, but it then follows that you have one identity only, one history, one personality, "your" one point of view, and so on. In this way your "free choice" quite often also becomes a way of perpetuating individual narrowness and self-centeredness. Also, getting a human being to identify with only being a physical body is an act of black magic, including sex magic. Talk about putting a person in prison. It's a way of getting them to deny any other point of view than that they're a somewhat robotically driven hunk of meat.

[chocolate]

Hello Jeffrey!

I managed to read your post yesterday, and tried to see your ideas as a picture in my mind this morning. Which I somehow managed to accomplish.
I reread it just now once again.

We seem to be observing the situation from what it would seem as opposite viewpoints. But having said that, I also feel that there is no correct answer to anything so profoundly big, and every one of us perceives in his/hers most natural way. Your parallels to this whole world being a type of a body structure seem to be sound, and I see it coming from a more logical perspective.

I am not going to stop at particular words and expressions, but wanted to say, that you know best what feels correct for the current observation and from the position you stand right now. And I feel you should continue to investigate your point of view.

We have the disadvantage of being educated and constantly under the influence of externalized knowledge and ideology, even if we don't realize it on occasion, so one way of staying detached, being centered, having an OBE, or whatever one decides to call it, is probably only going to be beneficial for the final goal.
We seem to strive to know the unknown, all of us writing here on this thread.
I guess this is better, than to stay in one place, and just hope to get excited by the flying around objects (symbolically speaking).

I will probably try to follow my own advice here as well.

Eventually we will meet, somewhere, symbolically speaking again, all of us, in due time.
Until then, it is an adventure.

[TraineeHuman]

I take it scientologists would like my next statement. I consider it's more important to be able to "run pictures" (in the mental plane) than to be able to astral or mental project regularly. "Running pictures" is one important part of what I would use the term "energy work" to cover. But I'll get back to that word "energy" in a little while. I believe I primarily learnt how to "run pictures" through direct "transmission" of that skill one-to-one, nonverbally. And through endless practice one-to-one with many different individuals. If you can clearly see the "pictures" , the long "movies", that make up or that distort the worldview of others or yourself, who needs clearly remembered dreams, or OB travel in mental realms? More subtly even than "running pictures", though, after years of enormous practice I found one can to some degree also "run intentions", or "run points of view".

But I found there is something quite beyond that also, that's more liberating. Let's come back to the concepts of "energy", or "light". To a great many, these concepts supposedly point to realities or Forces that are somewhat similar to the physical version of "energy" or "light". But I happen to see these very differently. I see these terms as labels that people have given to infinities, to indeterminate realities, as they manifest in this world of finiteness. (What a miracle it is that the world of finiteness even exists. How did the infinities ever generate it?) Experientially speaking, what most advanced meditators do is sooner or later they hit and for a very long time remain at a profound "nothingness", what seems like a wonderful blank but still a blank. The reason it seems that way is that they haven't as yet begun to learn how to cope with infinities instead of finite realities. However, I'd like to think I know maybe a shortcut to "unraveling" that blankness. Let me emphasize that at this level "energy" and "light" have no such thing as any frequency, or any kind of waveform, and so on.

I don't claim to have mastered that, but partly I did learn it through direct "transmission". I hesitate to mention Gods at all because frankly it seems to me that the misinfo propaganda regarding the benevolent Gods is so massive it seems to have poisoned or misdirected the notions of nearly everyone on Forums such as this. Without direct experience, one's notions will be false anyway. But the being I got the direct "transmission" from was Shiva, who is the supreme benevolent God, the God of liberation and enlightenment, and close partner of Gaia (or the being sometimes known, I assume, as "Mary"; also as "Kali", although there are also many imposters who call themselves "Kali" and seem to be demonic).

So what is this "infinity-busting" skill? Well, I've already talked in this thread about how the HM -- let alone the Divine Mind --- knows primarily through union, through seeing nonseparativeness. In other words, to know X the HM almost makes itself temporarily identical with X. This is the only type of knowledge that's close to being complete knowledge. Not that full completeness is even possible, of course. Any other type of knowledge -- including scientific knowledge -- is laughably superficial at best; except that the inventor of a great scientific theory or paradigm will have used at-one-with knowledge to create the theory. Being totally at-one-with a whole issue, if you like. Earlier in this thread I did my best to encourage people to practice truly being at-one-with in the hope they would discover some of its significance and power. So far, not much fruit. I can only do my best. The HM sees the nonseparativeness all the time but still lives in a world full of separativeness. On the other hand, the Divine Mind/ Source lives in a world of total unity in many ways. But you can't even see what the HM (or Source) is like, and what the view is like from there, without being it. And the view becomes very different, I suggest.

[chocolate]

Hello, TraineeHuman,
Being-at-one-with is how I would explain my ability to sense intentions and understand people/animals/plants/etc. including feeling sensations in my body as a direct result of that state of at-one-with. I probably haven't reached the post from the past where you have emphasized this, yet.

I don't think I am psychic as some may suggest, but I do have the ability to associate with someone without being that particular someone. I have managed to do something similar with several people. One of them in particular was also very intuitive and creative, and we somehow managed to stay tuned to a similar wavelength. It was a very good experience. We live on the opposite sides of the world right now, but on occasion he sends me some images.

Of course there are those, who I have happened to allow in my more personal world, and who can also manage to send me pictures, but on occasion I block them because of the nature of those pictures. It is a two way communication, but as with every other communication, it should be done with care and responsibility.

Some people just do it, but I don't think we all have the necessary knowledge to put it in words the way you have done it in your post.
All of the above, of course, if I understood the concept correctly.

Running pictures is a way of communicating with animals for me. I mean, sometimes I can see a reaction, but mostly I let them talk to me. I receive either a sensation, or some sort of a glimpse of something resembling an image.

I also had the idea that if one could hold a mental picture in one's mind stable long enough, that would be a direct communication of ideas with everyone around that person, including animals and plant spirits, even if the people cannot exactly understand it consciously. I thought this to be the ultimate way of non-offensive counteraction of the current state of affairs on Earth.

If one can remember Lord of the Rings, the way Aragorn managed to engage all spirits, 'living' and 'dead', together with the trees and the animals for the final battle against the darkness, I think he did it exactly though mental images. I don't know if that concept has been mentioned in the books (I haven't read the books), surely it wasn't in the films, but regardless, that is how I 'saw' it recently.

So if anyone is interested in helping the world in a non-aggressive way, which I think is the only option that has any future, that would be it.


[ I probably need to note that I apologize for being the one to constantly reply to your posts, TH, but this thread is mostly what I read right now.
I will try to stay in the shadows more, just to let other express... ]

[soleil]

hi all, i have been busy and really need to catch up on last 2 months of posts. i shared with th via a pm some updates, and if he thinks theres relevant material worth sharing he can. im day 3 of oobe attempting and not gonna give up like william buhlman/robert bruce. mainly im using only rope method to stick to something. its been successful with blind oobers so visualization is not needed. so fay day 3 my tactile imagining has improved.

on another note, i tried a guided meditation for astral projection, by paul santisi. i got deep into trance, aware and alert with my body asleep...i even felt intense heart chakra thundering in my chest and then since this recording was doing obe via a guided roll out method, well it threw me off completely and so i think it fizzled. under normal circumstances it would work for just about anyone. im just 6mos pregnant and the thought of rolling over messed with my logic. if anyone has any binaural beats or guided meditation for obe that works please share here. 21 days to form a habit, within the subconscious so here goes, wish me luck.

oh and anyone else care to join in the committment, go for it!