Meditation, and any work with Chi or Prana may invite possession by Jinn

[Dawn]

In this post I’d like to look at the question of Jinn and Demons as something that IS discussed and dealt with in eastern ‘all is one’ meditation traditions. I've put in a few quotes from those who contributed to this idea.

There are also a few people who expressed worry over me and some sort of trepidation that I might not ‘get out of ‘it’’. I'm not going to quote these posts... I'm just going to say... please don't worry about me... I am doing fine... I am just curious about this topic and I'd like to look at it as squarely and fearlessly as possible.

After reading all the wonderful and thoughtful posts yesterday, today my mind is turning them over to see what has not been addressed and what is left out of different thinking patterns. I actually opened this thread to get assistance in looking at something which appears real, yet humanity seems to have been programmed to ignore it. Coming our of fear (and a sort of ostrich like behavior) is an important part of the awakening process. I assume everyone here on this thread is coming out of fear about this topic and finding genuine curiosity? Well, at least I hope so.

Here are a few questions and observations I wish to make

Graybeard: The difficulty is the mind loves to come up with a reason when something unexpected happens in meditation or spiritual work.
There might be no reason-- no cause and effect.----or there might be.
Again the mind wants to control.
Its not a question of controlling the mind---thoughts arrive unasked for and depart if left alone.
Basically the thoughts are noticed but neither encouraged nor discouraged.

link: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post808721

Graybeard: you have made a number of observations about how to sit and overcome everything through the consciousness that all is one and with an aware mind. I caught a post of yours on one of the Simon threads where you told him where to look for enlightenment and that he was not properly understanding his experience. You seem kind of arrogant to me... but perhaps you are fully enlightened and so you know all there is to know about this topic... in which case I should look at all the years of meditation and awareness I have practiced and realize that I am not as enlightened as you are. Rather humbling idea, which doesn't feel correct to me... but I should be open to the possibility ... and you are certainly invited to say more here.

Are you aware of this biography? Lady of the Lotus-Born: The Life and Enlightenment of Yeshe Tsogyal
available here: http://www.amazon.com/Lady-Lotus-Bor...the+lotus+born

From Amazon Book Description: The first Tibetan to attain complete enlightenment was in all probability the woman Yeshe Tsogyal, the closest disciple of Padmasambhava, the master who brought Buddhism to Tibet in the eighth century. This classical text is not only a biography but also an inspiring example of how the Buddha's teaching can be put into practice.

During her 375 years on earth, Yeshe developed a following of demons who swore fealty to her and are said to continue to serve her here on earth in order to help humans become enlightened

If Yeshe, who is considered to be the very first enlightened Tibetan, ends up working with demons then perhaps she knew something we do not yet know? I'm not 375 years old (since the last time I was erased) so I'm willing to think she has more wisdom than I do. What is your opinion? Do you think she needed to sit and clean up her thinking by watching her thoughts?

Perhaps we are looking at spiritual gatekeeper phenomenon here? There are so many references to this concept that I am hard pressed to choose one. Perhaps the gatekeepers only show up to challenge the increasingly enlightened person? What do you think about this concept?

Simon Parks has mentioned that he has ‘jinn or demon protectors’ and that anyone doing remote viewing of him needs to be careful because of this. He says that this is very normal and ordinary for all illuminati. This tracks exactly with the ‘factional’ story of Bartemeous (see my earlier post about this book trilogy) which details a world in which the ‘masters and politicians’ can see and control demons and Jinn, but ordinary humans cannot see them.

What I see in all of your posts is a claim that everything is a thought and that watching thoughts resolves everything. That is not my personal experience at all. But I’d like to ask you to address my comments here, because I’d love to hear back from you. Your input is always welcome and I look forward to it.

I also read a tedious and detailed autobiography called ‘Daughter of Fire’ (available here:
http://www.amazon.com/Daughter-Fire-...ughter+of+fire ).
This is a personal account of spiritual training with a Sufi master. This master did work in healing people from demonic attacks, and with the author, as she faced some really strange and challenging life forms. What can you tell us about someone who spends his entire life sitting in meditation and a student of his who does so as well? Do you think that sitting and watching their thoughts would clear this all up?

Really and truly I am curious about your understanding of all of this. Please tell us all more about your personal experiences. Is your mind totally silent? Honestly, what do you think about others who report something different. Are they all disillusioned in your opinion? Do you think they are all just suffering from 'thoughts' they should 'observe' in order to allow them to 'fade away'? And, if you have never had experiences with any of these entities I am curious why you are attracted to this thread..... Please share more

markpierre: He's right. You don't trust him enough. Unhealthy thinking attracts all kinds of unhealthy junk. If you trusted anything enough it would work. I'll take care of it for you now, no charge. If I can't do it in 7.5 minutes, it can't be done. It isn't there.

post: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post814782


Markpierre, Your comments are intriguing. As a person who has done this type of work (balancing and healing people and entities) I am very surprised. You have an amazing gift! OMG. When I hired Dr. Skillas, his team worked for 7.5 hours to clear the first 2 layers, and 7.5 hours to clear the next 2 layers of my field 4 months later. Your statement creates incredulity on my part about your gifts. When I used to work with others my sessions usually were 60 to 90 minutes long. Are you certain you know what you are talking about?

~How do you alter the agreements these entities have with their host?
~How do you heal the entities?
~Do you help the entities move on and evolve or do you just leave them hanging around looking for someone to attach to here in this reality?
~Have you done this with a lot of people and have they had good long term results?
And... perhaps these questions come from a lack of understanding on my part and you have an entirely different view.

Please tell us all more about what you do and how you do it.

I’m going to interject a bit of info here which directly conflicts with what you wrote

"unhealthy thinking attracts all kinds of junk"

Every healer and every ‘master’ I have met has informed me that I have difficulty with dead people and demons hanging around because of my ‘tremendous light’. Apparently as one gets brighter and more filled with life along the road to enlightenment and awareness they attract more things which are the opposite. Do you think this perspective is totally false? I am really open to your view.

TraineeHuman: If I understand correctly, of course trance of any kind strongly invites certain kinds of very partial possession or worse, for reasons which a number of posters have already explained in considerable detail here. It's a big red flag that you wave in case they haven't noticed you've set aside your defences -- your natural protection. Why give up your deeper "I", ever? As we know, ultimately that is Source itself. And yet, as I understand it, trance is precisely such a giving up. Of course trance of any kind will at least open you to psychic parasites.

Regarding transmission of chi, I do love to receive the essence behind the chi a true master of it is transmitting. I've learnt how to gobble up every last tidbit. If I'd been there, chocolate, when that Shaolin master was transmitting, they wouldn't need to put it into a statue, because I'd take it all, and not apologize.

(post: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post810396)

TraineeHuman: I always love your posts. What kind of chi are you referring to from masters (which you gobble up)? Are you speaking of the addictive and drug like shakti-put which many gurus use? How has absorbing the chi from masters effected your life long term after the guru meetings you’ve had?

You discuss the dangers of going into a ‘meditation trance’. What is this please? I find that being warned about something I do not understand causes me to experience a bit of fear. How would you suggest avoiding such a trance... after you explain what it is please? Do you know anyone who suffered from a mediation trance? How do you know they are dangerous?

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=l0G-knc3dVw

This is an interesting movie for it explores the idea that the more light we hold, the more darkness we must also be able to face without flinching. And of course, this is also just Hollywood. Perhaps this is what Buddha Boy means when he describes his journey as 'hard'. If you don't know about Budda Boy, here is a link: https://youtube.com/watch?v=v29clGMWU84 I guess this explores the idea of 'gatekeepers' and somehow we must not flinch when we meet them... or we cannot continue evolving.

[greybeard]

Respectfully Dawn I was not addressing Simon but Amzer as part off an on going conversation on a Simon thread.

One of the obstacles to enlightenment is identification---I am the doer.
I am the mediator, I am meditating, really about controlling.

I come from the context of surrender, as an alcoholic AA taught me to let go and let God
Basically I am sharing what worked for me---and many others.
It may sound arrogant but it comes from personal experience of what has worked.
Through following the advice of others I come from being a suicidal wreck to a place of serenity.

Best wishes to you Dawn

Chris

[Dawn]

Chris (Graybeard), please don't take what I said as an attack. I am truly looking at beliefs and belief systems as they relate to this topic. I really am curious to know whether you thought that all Jinn, etc... are thought forms. I rather suspect that these inhabiting entities are the cause of alcholicism and drug use.

I once met an amazing and compassionate invisible being at an Alanon meeting (for those that don't know AA and NA are for alcohol and drug users, and Alanon is for the enablers they are in relationship with). This being helped me release some big grief ridden thought form (or entity?) and the experience was amazing. I was so very grateful and ... so very surprised. I really hadn't expected such loving help there. It was all done silently after I left the meeting while driving home.

It left me in awe of the AA and Alanon groups for they seem to have invisible help that is very powerful and motivated by love and compassion.

Chris... do you think it is possible that those caught in an unbreakable pattern of drug and alcohol use could be inhabited by or suffering from attachments of entities?

And, by the way I really relate to feeling suicidal in my past. I began to feel that way at age 12. Not only did I feel that way for 40+ years, but I kept seeing myself taking a knife and stabbing my heart... then bleeding to death from the wound. Last October, immediately after my first Skillas session, this stopped. Later he reported to me that he had removed the 'spirit' of a dead French artist who had killed himself that way. This goes in my file of 'weird' but it worked'.

[greybeard]

Dawn put it this way I am aware of the lower astral that takes delight in causing pain and suffering and does target those attempting to make spiritual progress.
However I took advice not to go there, so to speak, to starve these entities of energy by no thinking of them--that gives them power.
The Buddha was beset by demons--Jesus was tempted by the Devil,
I dont make light of these things.
However it is also mind stuff.
Eckhart Tolle calls it pain body and states that it does seem like an entity.
If I get some sensation I dont label it---I dont call it psychic attack or anything.
I full accept there is a feeling.
If I did name it correctly or incorrectly then fear would likely arise and then there would be a real challenge.
As part of my recovery I became a psychotherapist and hypnotherapist--then a bi-aura practitioner also Reiki Master.
So Im sensitive to energy movement in self and others.
I really wanted to fix me first then help others.
The advice on just sitting without technique came from various enlightened masters. Ramana Maharshi, Eckhart Tolle, Adyahanti and Mooji all recommend this.
Will Pm you in a moment Dawn--we are Ok.

With Love
Chris

[Delight]

Posted by Dawn (here)
During her 375 years on earth, Yeshe developed a following of demons who swore fealty to her and are said to continue to serve her here on earth in order to help humans become enlightened.

I wonder what it would mean if this was recontextualized to regard Yeshe's demons as in her mind. She gained the fealty of her own demonic contents of mind that then served her? Buddhism from what I understand is a psychology of the content of mind and liberation from the bindings of mind? My friend who is a serious student uses deities in meditation for the purpose of seeing the qualities within herself.

In Buddhism, demons represent functions of human nature and the environment that bring misery and suffering. These demons and devils—the robbers of life and benefit—are actually the negativity inherent in our lives. They can appear as negative internal feelings and as external influences that try to obstruct our Buddhist practice.

Even in the lives of wonderful bodhisattvas, there is fundamental darkness. Negativity—like death and taxes—is certain to be a part of our lives until our final moments. Subtle negativity, like self-doubt, may be difficult to see as a devilish function, but it most certainly is. It keeps us from recognizing that we are Buddhas, worthy of the highest respect. http://www.sgi-usa.org/memberresourc...otus_sutra.php

There came a period when, while living alone in the wintry cave of Nering Senge, her mate having retreated to warmer climes, that Yeshe Tsogyal began to face all the demons of her mind. Visions rose up before her in the process of her meditations, equal to those of Buddha Sakyamuni beneath the Bodhi-tree, or Christ in the throes of his Temptation, or St. Anthony in the Desert, full of hideous and terrifying intensity. Hordes of phantoms advanced upon her: fearful, seductive, malign, and evil. With these, the product of her own traumatic passions, she wrestled, while remaining unmovable in her vajra-like samadhi, the immutable poise of impartial contemplation. For days the onslaught continued, until finally she was left in peace. This was the trial of her final spiritual catharsis.

Afterwards, at the lonely cave of Paro Taktsang in the highlands of Bhutan, with her consort Atsara Sahle, she disciplined herself through vigorous fasts, long meditation, and the spiritual practice known as karmamudra, so as to blend the refined positive and negative seed essences (bindus) of her heart nerve-plexus (cakra) and branch nervous-systems (nadi), from whence the five major and five secondary bio-energies (vayu) of the living body derive, so as to crystallizing in the whole of her presence the basis of an inner vajra-body. This rigorous blending together of refined nerve substance (the white and red seed essences), and the undoing of the last psychological knots of the heart centre, pertains to the final stage for winning Buddhahood in a single lifetime. Yeshe Tsogyal's retreat at Paro Taktsang would be the last austerity practiced for her own benefit.

In Paro Taktsang after pursuing her goal with incredible diligence, Yeshe Tsogyal attained the level of a world-encompassing Insight holder. Thus she gained the basic stages of Enlightenment.http://www.dharmafellowship.org/biog...he-tsogyal.htm

I am following this thread as it means something to me about the direction I want to head about relationship to myself and to "others". People talk quite often about the way we cannot get along with others. My question is "What would be the basis of co-existance with "others"?" My provisional answer is my respect which honors, my friendship that establishes cooperation, my peace that can have no fear.

I cannot help but see this as the Bardo to dissolve all projections into clear light? I cannot see differently today than that our demons look like demons just as in the after death bardo...energies we interpret. This does not negate that Sentience is ubiquitous but my relationships are created by my intentions and whom I see is distorted by my eyes. IMO we are all about seeing what is within as refelcted until we are clear.

What might this proverb of the Gospel of Thomas mean?

70. Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you [will] kill you."

If I make friends of my demons, I will have allies. Why would I not make friends? Because I want an enemy?

[Synchronicity]

I would just add that yes, that light does tend to attract energy to us. When you so shamanic work "they" tend to know and come to you for help more often. When your energy level goes up and the light is more obvious you do attract more...but it isn't necessarily negative and actually is often wonderful and positive if you discount confused or needy "souls" coming for help. But part of learning and training and allowing the brighter light should be learning ways to be safe so that if you do find negatives attracted you can find out why and stay safe. That is why the process isn't generally a week or two...it's over years so that is time to gather tools to stay safe and recognize negative and dangerous energy/beings.

Once again there seems to be an assumption that if we aren't afraid we are ignoring danger or all that has been described here. That makes the assumption that if someone is aware, but isn't afraid and sees the situation in a different way than assuming everyone is possessed and awful beings are around them, then the person must not be aware enough. That just isn't true. Some are irresponsible or don't get the bigger picture and are ignorant not only of the idea of being in danger, but of what to do if they have a problem or how to recognize something attached or negative. That doesn't mean all who see people and life and the universe a different way are ignorant, afraid, wrong, or not evolved. It just means we all are coming from a different background. But hey, I have said this same thing several times in different ways in this thread, so no reason to say it any more. Enjoy

[Delight]

Posted by Synchronicity (here)
I would just add that yes, that light does tend to attract energy to us. When you so shamanic work "they" tend to know and come to you for help more often. When your energy level goes up and the light is more obvious you do attract more...but it isn't necessarily negative and actually is often wonderful and positive if you discount confused or needs "souls" coming for help. But part of learning and training and allowing the brighter light should be learning ways to be safe so that if you do find negatives attracted you can find out why and stay safe. That is why the process isn't generally a week or two...it's over years so that is time to gather tools to stay safe and recognize negative and dangerous energy/beings.

With respect, how does it serve people to perceive in this way? In disowning the "they" we cannot possibly reincorporte the energy. What if "gaining light" or etheric energy enables us to see OUR OWN THOUGHTS more clearly?

There is an old Nasrudin parable that has more than one meaning. He loses a wallet in the dark. He then is seen under a street lamp looking for it and the joke is that he is looking for his wallet "there" as opposed to where he lost it (as there is more light under the street lamp).

Most people just laugh at the absurdity but I see a more deep meaning to me. Who can reall where we lost our thought forms that we created? When is it easier to find them??
Once we start holding more energy or prana through practices, we gain a larger streetlamp circumference and it is then easier to find them. Where we lost them does not matter because they trail us.

So to continue my analogy, the streetlamp is actually symbolic of our light and no matter where we lost our bits, we will see all more clearly through the increased intensity of our light. I met and studied the work of

Dr. Stylianos Atteshlis (Στυλιανός Αττεσλής, known as Daskalos) (1912–1995), a Christian mystic and healer who was born on December 12, 1912 in Cyprus where he spent most of his life.

He like some on this forum was a healer (specializing in broken bones) and helper of souls in and out of body. He was very cognizant of "elementals" of our thought forms which we generate and which remain until no longer energized. Thought forms congregate and people with a similar make up may attract thought forms.

Every thought, emotion and desire creates and transmits an elemental – also called thought-form – that carries on an existence of its own. We create and regenerate two types of elementals. When negative emotion prevails over thought, we have created emotional thought-forms, or desire-thoughts. When our ideas, desires and emotions pass through reason and love, we create reasoned thought-forms, or thought-desires. An elemental can never be destroyed, only disenergized (when no longer fed with etheric vitality). Elementals of a kind collect to form powerful group elementals. If an individual, or a collection of individuals, are vibrating at the same frequency, they will attract such group elementals. Archangels also create elementals (e.g. nature spirits and angels) in the service of the Divine Plan.

Researchers of Truth understand the triadic nature of their subconscious. One chamber of the subconscious contains all the elementals composing our personality. The second chamber is the storehouse of life-giving etheric vitality. The third, and most valued chamber, is that of the Logos and the Holy Spirit.

With appropriate training, we can project and direct etheric vitality from the etheric doubles of the bodies and send it over vast distances, and perform so-called miracles. To do this we can take part of the Mind-substance of etheric vitality, give it form and project it as a mental image, outside both our gross material body and our etheric double.

This happens consciously when we form what we call "thought-desires", but unconsciously when we form "desire-thoughts". Jesus Christ called the latter "deaf and dumb spirits" (Mark 9:25). These two types of thought forms, because they are both living forms, we call "elementals".

Etheric vitality is the "Bread" which comes to us from Heaven. It is the means by which we build, when rendered into elementals, the present day personality. It is also the means of cleansing and purifying the character, which ultimately serves to assimilate our personality into the Inner Self–our Self-aware Soul. http://www.researchersoftruth.org/teachings/elementals

EDIT

I am aware that shamanic work in at least some traditions is like a "wounded healer" who first of all has a healing and/or continues to attract the clients who have similar maladies and that by healing is healed.

It is like and like attracted for the purpose of gaining harmony and coherence IMO. Shaman were never seen doing individual work until recently. They actually were managing the tribal "thought forms". Illness of one person was related to all because of the mind of tribal people is not disconnected (from my studies).

It is a side track to ignore the central message that we are never at a distance from our own created stage. It is much more individual now IMO because we are changing and moving from local/ tribal through individual/psychological to more global/Universal (sort of a pendulum on a larger swing). Those are just words but it feels like the roles of "medicine people" we associate with Shaman is different focused now.

Hypothetically, if there are sentient beings along with us with minds which create elementals like ours (and maybe they do but I suspect theirs are not like ours), I still feel responsible for my experience of them. Let's imagine Djinn?

They may have, are said to have extremes of temperament good bad indifferent too? They may be like us in being vacillating about their intentions towards "others"?

If a human is expecting a "bad" Djinn, he or she will send out a thought form of fear. It will be a destructive thought form as is unloving.
If were a Djinn and met a spewer of negative thought forms, I would run.

But others more angry than I feel and war like might say "This hurts my indignant bone and I would as soon be hung for a sheep as a goat" and retaliate with energy.

The hapless hater is of that frequency, ping goes the elemental congruence and ping ping ping goes the sense of attacked but who started all the fuss? When was it thrown and who threw the dart?

AND look at the kind of culture where the most Djinn hate is found? My research on that culture makes me wonder if the reports are capable of intentional manipulation for Islam.

Thanks so much for letting me share what is important to me Dawn. Best to everyone, Maggie

[Synchronicity]

I really don't understand what you are asking? How does it serve people to perceive that there are indeed many souls, creatures, negative energies, positive ones, lost souls who are looking for help, some who are disturbed or unbalanced and some who are helping beings, to understand that there is both "light" and "dark" and that not all negative is evil, that there is truly evil as well, so therefore to see it, evaluate it the best one can given abilities, guides one knows well that are positive, God if one believes in one, and learns tools to safely work with all of the above instead of fearing all or most of it? Am I misunderstanding what you are asking? I see much, feel much, "know" things can be around and often are. I also have excellent reasons, just as legitimate as those who see those beings/creatures differently than I do, to see them as I do. I deal with many various energies and they aren't all sweetness and milk tea, but I don't see most as evil and I am not afraid to work with someone who has attracted negative energy or even has attachments. It's not calling myself amazing or saying I am always totally right, and I'm not saying that there are no dangers. I'm just still saying that meditation, yoga, and energy work don't have to end up with misery and inhabitants people don't want to have. It does all depend on how you do them.

I have released (with help from those who work with me) some nasty attachments form energy workers who weren't careful and did bring home what they released from others. It can happen and does if one is not very careful. But I have seen many, many people truly healthy and healing from all the practices that I listed above. I am saying is that if a person approaches any technique with fear, the result will be different than if a person approaches it..and life in general...with knowledge of what bad and good things can happen and skills/tools to work through it safely. Bad things can happen getting out of bed, but lying in bed and not rising usually aren't good options, either. There is balance to be found...don't go rushing into things we don't understand or prepare for, but don't hide under the covers afraid we might get sunburned if we peek out from under them and miss all that lovely Vitamin D and living a life. I am not saying anyone here is doing that, but stating it generally.

I probably didn't answer what you were asking and if I didn't I am sorry.

Edit:

I wouldn't disown those who come for help...not sure what you mean there. That is the point...they come for help and if I am able to help I do.

[Delight]

Posted by Synchronicity (here)
I really don't understand what you are asking?

I was not referring to the whole post...but this part and the highlighted

Quote Posted by Synchronicity (here)
I would just add that yes, that light does tend to attract energy to us. When you so shamanic work "they" tend to know and come to you for help more often. When your energy level goes up and the light is more obvious you do attract more...but it isn't necessarily negative and actually is often wonderful and positive if you discount confused or needs "souls" coming for help. But part of learning and training and allowing the brighter light should be learning ways to be safe so that if you do find negatives attracted you can find out why and stay safe. That is why the process isn't generally a week or two...it's over years so that is time to gather tools to stay safe and recognize negative and dangerous energy/beings.

Please excuse my strong opinions. I may be mistaken YES.
Whatever it looks I believe it will be our shadow we are really seeing and who's to say the other souls are not "us" as I do not know? I have not had your experience and I may be mistaken and I am not asking you change or I cahange opinions!!!

I like not being concerned about the need to be protected from anything because it is all part of me. IMO, my lack of concern and thoughts about protection is my own protection hehe. This IS IMO yet informs what happens and does not happen TO ME and I am 59 so that is pretty nice (meaning I have YEARS left for good times). I have met myself and now she is not my enemy and we are getting friendly now.

Edit

Edit:

I wouldn't disown those who come for help...not sure what you mean there. That is the point...they come for help and if I am able to help I do.

Please excuse the miscommunication!! I am not sure how that was understood. I don't know what that means as I can't recall saying that??

[Synchronicity]

Posted by Delight (here)

Posted by Synchronicity (here)
I really don't understand what you are asking?

I was not referring to the whole post...but this part and the highlighted

Quote Posted by Synchronicity (here)
I would just add that yes, that light does tend to attract energy to us. When you so shamanic work "they" tend to know and come to you for help more often. When your energy level goes up and the light is more obvious you do attract more...but it isn't necessarily negative and actually is often wonderful and positive if you discount confused or needs "souls" coming for help. But part of learning and training and allowing the brighter light should be learning ways to be safe so that if you do find negatives attracted you can find out why and stay safe. That is why the process isn't generally a week or two...it's over years so that is time to gather tools to stay safe and recognize negative and dangerous energy/beings.

Please excuse my strong opinions. I may be mistaken YES.
Whatever it looks I believe it will be our shadow we are really seeing and who's to say the other souls are not "us" as I do not know? I have not had your experience and I may be mistaken and I am not asking you change or I cahange opinions!!!

I like not being concerned about the need to be protected from anything because it is all part of me. IMO, my lack of concern and thoughts about protection is my own protection hehe. This IS IMO yet informs what happens and does not happen TO ME and I am 59 so that is pretty nice.

Well, I work with many people who do bring some pretty strong negative energy with them, and I teach/share how to do this work, so ethics and safety are a big part of making sure people are prepared. BUT, I agree with you that the moment I see students' energy shifting to fear is the moment that they are vulnerable. When I ask what thoughts were happening before the shift they always say something they were taught to be afraid of in church or images from movies popped into their heads and shifted the whole experience for them. When they learn to differentiate between scary movies and scary threats from church and what is really in front of them, the fear goes and they are strong and safe again. It isn't denying, but more acknowledging and working through whatever it is whether it is theirs or someone else's.

And I sure can be mistaken and I sure don't have all the answers...I think that is a great way to look at life. And yes, sometimes our shadow is what is going on. That old saying something like, "I don't like what I see of myself in that guy I don't like" is pretty true I think. I don't think constantly about being protected because it's just part of what I do...I think my focus is on protecting the person I am working on more than myself because what I do "comes with" protection. But no need to excuse your opinions..I like that way of looking at it...who knows? Whoever and whatever the case, I agree that not being afraid makes a big difference in what we attract. Thanks for your explanation of what you meant!

[markpierre]

Posted by Dawn (here)
Markpierre, Your comments are intriguing. As a person who has done this type of work (balancing and healing people and entities) I am very surprised. You have an amazing gift! OMG. When I hired Dr. Skillas, his team worked for 7.5 hours to clear the first 2 layers, and 7.5 hours to clear the next 2 layers of my field 4 months later. Your statement creates incredulity on my part about your gifts. When I used to work with others my sessions usually were 60 to 90 minutes long. Are you certain you know what you are talking about?

~How do you alter the agreements these entities have with their host?
~How do you heal the entities?
~Do you help the entities move on and evolve or do you just leave them hanging around looking for someone to attach to here in this reality?
~Have you done this with a lot of people and have they had good long term results?
And... perhaps these questions come from a lack of understanding on my part and you have an entirely different view.

Please tell us all more about what you do and how you do it.

7.5 minutes includes a break for a few sips of coffee. Things that prefer shadows avoid light. Including you when you entertain the shadowy and unknown as real and a threat.

Point the entirety of that vast volume of light on those beliefs. Nothing is what you say it is, so if you don't like what you believe, change your mind. It's all contained in and perpetuating your personal fear.
Stop doing that. Or do it until you run out of scary ideas. Borrowed ideas.
Nothing unreal is real. It can't harm you. Arguing with it is also unreal. Do you need to die to find that out? Not this time, unless you insist. Either way, you will find it out.
Consciousness that wallows in the unreal does that until it changes it's mind. If nothing confronts or challenges it, nothing changes. That's been the problem all along.
If you don't confront it in your time, something else will, in it's time. Sometimes confrontation is the demonstration of what is real. Show it some of that. Give it a bowl of soup.
It looks like something that isn't you. There is no such thing as something that isn't you.

The evolution of what isn't real isn't my business. It's asking however awkwardly for the same thing you are. Love and certainty. To 'get real'.
Offer it your love, if you have enough to spare. If you don't have enough, that's the issue at hand. That's easy to address. Don't do anything else. Stop doing whatever isn't that.
Anywhere love and certainty aren't apparent, IS NOT REALITY.

What's whole, I can address immediately. We meet in the light of reason. The outcomes aren't my business either. Who is qualified to measure 'results'? The results are what are chosen.
Lots of happier people. I wouldn't want to be blamed for that. Give credit where credit is due. You can't be sick and happy at the same time. They're hopefully out there propagating happiness in others. I wouldn't want credit for when they return to unhappy.

I don't heal anything outside of myself, do you? People that make an identity or a living out of it are inclined to forget that.
They're also inclined to forget that when they entertain the unreal in you, they aid in making it seem real. You can chant or hold meetings in the astral, or slap fish together or anything you think is convincing. Make sure it's convincing. That you are convinced, so that healing is convincing.
Remember that in being a practitioner, you need problems to heal. Both of those are invented, but for what purpose?

Agreements are between you and your Godself. Decide what you will and won't allow. You can always change your mind.

That's more clarification and repetition than I'd generally bother with. Kindly don't ask for more.

[Synchronicity]

Posted by Delight (here)

Posted by Synchronicity (here)
I really don't understand what you are asking?

I was not referring to the whole post...but this part and the highlighted

Quote Posted by Synchronicity (here)
I would just add that yes, that light does tend to attract energy to us. When you so shamanic work "they" tend to know and come to you for help more often. When your energy level goes up and the light is more obvious you do attract more...but it isn't necessarily negative and actually is often wonderful and positive if you discount confused or needs "souls" coming for help. But part of learning and training and allowing the brighter light should be learning ways to be safe so that if you do find negatives attracted you can find out why and stay safe. That is why the process isn't generally a week or two...it's over years so that is time to gather tools to stay safe and recognize negative and dangerous energy/beings.

Please excuse my strong opinions. I may be mistaken YES.
Whatever it looks I believe it will be our shadow we are really seeing and who's to say the other souls are not "us" as I do not know? I have not had your experience and I may be mistaken and I am not asking you change or I cahange opinions!!!

I like not being concerned about the need to be protected from anything because it is all part of me. IMO, my lack of concern and thoughts about protection is my own protection hehe. This IS IMO yet informs what happens and does not happen TO ME and I am 59 so that is pretty nice (meaning I have YEARS left for good times). I have met myself and now she is not my enemy and we are getting friendly now.

Edit

Edit:

I wouldn't disown those who come for help...not sure what you mean there. That is the point...they come for help and if I am able to help I do.

Please excuse the miscommunication!! I am not sure how that was understood. I don't know what that means as I can't recall saying that??

I don't know..I was getting confused and possibly misunderstood what you referring to with

In disowning the "they" we cannot possibly reincorporte the energy

But I came back to say that you made me realize something important right in the middle of my supper salad! I know why I'm not afraid and why I don't see evil all over or things with people as something to fear or fear for myself. I see everything in the universe as connected...a web of life that includes everything creature and all of nature..all of earth, all of the rest of creation, the universe(s), and anything else that exists or has existed, or even will exist as one. So yes, is it all part of me? Am I part of it? Yes...so none of it is totally foreign or bizarre, and since I have felt that way all my life and saw/felt/knew/heard things all my life, to me they are normal and just part of life. I used to be confused when others didn't see those things or know they had guides with them, things influencing them, and then over time I kind of figured it out a bit more as I grew up.

So wow...yes, that is it. Thanks, Delight, for reminding me of that and helping me realize why I work the way I do and think the way I do.

[Shezbeth]

Posted by markpierre (here)
Things that prefer shadows avoid light. Including you when you entertain the shadowy and unknown as real and a threat.

This is both consistent and contrary to my experience. The light and the dark are/will always be attracted to and repelled by one another, and will act upon one another as is their nature which is (regardless of actual form of expression) to attempt assimilation/growth (light increases its self while dark decreases, and vice versa) but results in universal homogeneity (ultimately). As such, though minimally conscious of the process (if at all) the expressions (individuals) of either polarity will be drawn to other consistent expressions (like individuals) AND confronted with antithetical expressions (contrary individuals) insomuch as their environment allows, admitting that it is theoretically possible to eliminate the antithetical (or the consistent) expressions potentiality depending on one's organization of their reality.

I don't heal anything outside of myself, do you? [...] That you are convinced, so that healing is convincing.

So would I be correct in reiterating your earlier claim of: 7.5min = Healing Time +3x
would be more accurately stated as: 7.5min = Convincing Time +3x
where x = Time for sips of coffee?

... in recognition that through entrainment the healing is generated in the recipient. Not knocking - or contesting - your efficacy, merely clarifying that what occurs is the development of conviction of efficacy in the recipient, which is just a different way of describing the same phenomenon. Simply put, both are occurring; you are entraining (authorizing) another in 7.5, and they are being entrained (authorized) in 7.5, as the presence of one is evidence of the other, depending on subjective/objective perspective; That, where authorization = changing the reality (perception).

7.5 is doable, in the same sense that a most willing (as opposed to willful) recipient can be done instantaneously. One's average then depends on how 'murky' the water is, as the least willing are often the most in need.

Edit: I could go further by saying that confrontation between two antithetical expressions is a willful contest, whereas entrainment/healing between two such is a willing confluence.

[Dawn]

Delight: Quote Posted by Dawn (here)
During her 375 years on earth, Yeshe developed a following of demons who swore fealty to her and are said to continue to serve her here on earth in order to help humans become enlightened.
I wonder what it would mean if this was recontextualized to regard Yeshe's demons as in her mind. She gained the fealty of her own demonic contents of mind that then served her? Buddhism from what I understand is a psychology of the content of mind and liberation from the bindings of mind? My friend who is a serious student uses deities in meditation for the purpose of seeing the qualities within herself.

Quote In Buddhism, demons represent functions of human nature and the environment that bring misery and suffering. These demons and devils—the robbers of life and benefit—are actually the negativity inherent in our lives. They can appear as negative internal feelings and as external influences that try to obstruct our Buddhist practice.

Even in the lives of wonderful bodhisattvas, there is fundamental darkness. Negativity—like death and taxes—is certain to be a part of our lives until our final moments. Subtle negativity, like self-doubt, may be difficult to see as a devilish function, but it most certainly is. It keeps us from recognizing that we are Buddhas, worthy of the highest respect. http://www.sgi-usa.org/memberresourc...otus_sutra.php
Quote There came a period when, while living alone in the wintry cave of Nering Senge, her mate having retreated to warmer climes, that Yeshe Tsogyal began to face all the demons of her mind. Visions rose up before her in the process of her meditations, equal to those of Buddha Sakyamuni beneath the Bodhi-tree, or Christ in the throes of his Temptation, or St. Anthony in the Desert, full of hideous and terrifying intensity. Hordes of phantoms advanced upon her: fearful, seductive, malign, and evil. With these, the product of her own traumatic passions, she wrestled, while remaining unmovable in her vajra-like samadhi, the immutable poise of impartial contemplation. For days the onslaught continued, until finally she was left in peace. This was the trial of her final spiritual catharsis.

I am very grateful you took the time to post here Delight. It has been about 7-8 years since I read about Yeshe. It occurred to me last week that it is time to re-read her biography and that there are gifts in there for me now. I had to let go of her book when I moved 3 years ago... so I re-ordered it as my first Kindle book for my new little 'PaperWhiteKindle'. It just arrived in the mail today and I expect to enjoy re-reading the story of Yeshe's life.

I think it is interesting that I was only able to understand her agreements with demons... and not her integration with them. Perhaps it will be different for me now.

Perhaps this may explain my current experience in life. I have not understood why I totally stopped all forms of healing several years ago. When people come for 'help' I teach them the simple form of Ho Op'ono Op'ono that I was taught... then I send them on their way.

Yet, with all the talk of how it is all one... I still notice that visitors to my tiny home sometimes leave what act like entities on their way out. My partner and I always recognize these 'strangers' and take action to move them out. Perhaps they are all us. And in a way, if I allow myself to enjoy expanding beyond any sense of being human, as I do in meditation, this is correct. But for every day living I still experience them as 'other than' the energy I normally have around and within my body so I boot them out of intimate contact with me.

There is also a cemetery just down the hill about 200 feet from our little house. Sometimes I get visitors here which seem to be associated with that place. I recognize them by a sudden energy or emotional change that arrives without any reason. When I recognize what is going on I usually tell them to leave and I can actually feel them peeling away... then, like magic, the strange energy or emotion vanishes.

From the buddhist perspective it appears that these would all be considered me. And I can look forward to incorporating them all within myself as (or if) I progress someday.

[Dawn]

Markpierre: I don't heal anything outside of myself, do you? People that make an identity or a living out of it are inclined to forget that.
They're also inclined to forget that when they entertain the unreal in you, they aid in making it seem real. You can chant or hold meetings in the astral, or slap fish together or anything you think is convincing. Make sure it's convincing. That you are convinced, so that healing is convincing.
Remember that in being a practitioner, you need problems to heal. Both of those are invented, but for what purpose?

Agreements are between you and your Godself. Decide what you will and won't allow. You can always change your mind.

That's more clarification and repetition than I'd generally bother with. Kindly don't ask for more.

So, do you see all as one with yourself? Does this mean that everyone you ever speak with is instantly healed of all miss-thinking, all illness, and so on? Or are you separate from others and therefore you do not see any imbalance or mis-thinking in them as a part of yourself, for you are not them?

When I used to do healing it was after I realized that everyone WAS me... so if 'another' asked for help I could balance them just as I balanced myself... with ease. It took a while to realize that I should NEVER touch what appeared to be 'another' unless asked by them, for they were playing their own game.

Still... I never could truly help anyone make permanent changes in their consciousness without looking at the patterns and unwinding the energy vortexes affecting them. Does telling other people the truth you spoke of cause permanent change in everyone you speak to? Or do others change when they are in your presence, perhaps because you so deeply know the truth you speak of?

I still am amazed at your claim that 7.5 minutes permanently changes and heals anyone you work on. I've heard there are some on the planet like this... are you saying you are one of them?

[markpierre]

Posted by Shezbeth (here)
7.5 is doable, in the same sense that a most willing (as opposed to willful) recipient can be done instantaneously. One's average then depends on how 'murky' the water is, as the least willing are often the most in need.

Well said. But I don't spend any time with the unwilling. They don't show up.

It's really sit down, have a cup of coffee, get up. Around 7-8 minutes depending on the temp of the milk.

[markpierre]

Posted by Dawn (here)

Markpierre: I don't heal anything outside of myself, do you? People that make an identity or a living out of it are inclined to forget that.
They're also inclined to forget that when they entertain the unreal in you, they aid in making it seem real. You can chant or hold meetings in the astral, or slap fish together or anything you think is convincing. Make sure it's convincing. That you are convinced, so that healing is convincing.
Remember that in being a practitioner, you need problems to heal. Both of those are invented, but for what purpose?

Agreements are between you and your Godself. Decide what you will and won't allow. You can always change your mind.

That's more clarification and repetition than I'd generally bother with. Kindly don't ask for more.

So, do you see all as one with yourself? Does this mean that everyone you ever speak with is instantly healed of all miss-thinking, all illness, and so on? Or are you separate from others and therefore you do not see any imbalance or mis-thinking in them as a part of yourself, for you are not them?

Okay. This is what I didn't want.

That was kind of a strange statement. But then you answer it with When I used to do healing it was after I realized that everyone WAS me... so if 'another' asked for help I could balance them just as I balanced myself... with ease. That I can address; you're right.
And you don't really need this, I think you know what you're on to. If it's just a challenge, go elsewhere.
There's a 'self' that is experiencing the process, and a Self that is guiding it. There's a 'self' that has questions, and therefore doesn't seem to contain the answers. And a Self that has answers, though views questions as irrelevant. Which one of you is soliciting a response from which one of me? The questioning 'you' won't accept answers from anything other than the You that knows. Go there for answers.

Healing and balance doesn't require dialogue or proximity. It does seem to require agreement. You can give seeming others the experience of being loved and worthy, by loving them, which is an automatic effect of accepting yourself. You've plugged yourself back in to what's always been available. It doesn't correct anything, because nothing is broken. It was simply resisted. It corrects your perception of them. You can demonstrate that temporarily for yourself by putting your hands on them. Or pins. Whatever works for you. A healer fixing problems is still in a process. I don't know of any effective healers who aren't aware of that. The process is bigger than 'I've got mine, let them get theirs', so we participate more generally. Having healing skills or a lot of energy is not a measure of wakefulness. It's actually just normal. Becoming aware of them is a step. Not an achievement, just keeping agreements with ourselves.
It isn't who can, it's who will. Another step. That's their evolution.
It's like that with what appears as the most pathetic and 'needy' as well. Who declared Mind acting out it's will can be needful of anything?

That 'one with yourself' is an experience of Reality. What you 'see' in the sense you're inferring isn't. It's sensory. It's illusion. Don't confuse the two or compromise. That's for anyone confused about what 'oneness' is.
We are one single simultaneous multifaceted experience. It's actually true. All of it is you. The experience will likely leave you without words. Or the need for them.

That's where errant thinking and illness perpetuate themselves, and why it's so simple to correct. I'm an Eternal Spirit but I still have to pay the bills? isn't very willing. 'I want that question answered!' It makes it tediously slow. You've never paid your bills on your own.
No one will 'experience' healing or union until they want that more than sickness or separation. It takes whatever it takes. Band-Aids won't fix it.
Thankfully the conscious mind has little to do with that choice.

Go upstairs. That's where all the willing participation is. If you know yourSelf, you know who and what is in front of you.

7.5 minutes was a joke. It doesn't take that long.

[The Truth Is In There]

i'd like to add a tiny little bit that i've learned.

the entire creation is always in balance. any part of it that is unbalanced (either positive or negative) strives toward balance.

what that means with regard to our lives and experiences is that taken all lives together (not "future" or "past" lives because there is no time, only now) we're in balance. if during one life we take more than we give it will be balanced in another life in which we have to give more than we take.

this explains why some people we know have easy lives, others hard ones. it also explaines the "contracts" and all these things we seem to have made in "past" lives which in this life give us troubles or benefits.

walter russell (the only fully illumined person of our age that i'm aware of. he reached partial illumination each year since his 7th birthday and full illumination during a 39-day period in 1921) explains many of these things and more in his books. i highly recommend his "home study course" (available in pdf format from some websites) to anyone who wants to get rid of any last traces of "victim mentality" or whatever you want to call it. we ourselves are the cause for everything that happens in our lives, nobody and nothing else.

[Dawn]

TheTruthIsInThere: walter russell (the only fully illumined person of our age that i'm aware of. he reached partial illumination each year since his 7th birthday and full illumination during a 39-day period in 1921) explains many of these things and more in his books. i highly recommend his "home study course" (available in pdf format from some websites) to anyone who wants to get rid of any last traces of "victim mentality" or whatever you want to call it. we ourselves are the cause for everything that happens in our lives, nobody and nothing else.

Through private messages Gray Beard and I have been discussing 'enlightenment' and various GURUS and TEACHERS who seem 'there'

I think this is ultimately true... however there is a question 'How about all of the Blood?' This is another way of saying, if it is all one, and everything is perfect, then how about all of the suffering?

Here's another way to ask the same sort of question, "If it is all one how can ONE person become illuminated when the rest of humanity and the shared Human Consciousness is not?"

And finally... if anyone here truly sees this then why are you a member of Avalon?

I think we are all here because of the 'blood' and because of the 'suffering' which we are a part of... because we are currently experiencing the human condition. And in light of this... is there a 'Jinn condition'?

A famous Zen master (Sorry, can't remember the name) was in a discussion with a student.
Zen Master, "Who are You"
Student, "I am Oneness, and I am the Great Emptiness, I am the Self which is all'
Zen Master.... strikes student HARD with his stick
Student, "Ouch! Why did you do that?"
Zen Master, "If you are what you say then what was that?"

The student forgot to look at the simple fact that he now has a body and is experiencing separation and being one of the many individual things (which may be created from the Oneness but which are... still apparently separate)

There are 2 sides to the coin of enlightenment...
one side is emptiness and oneness...
and the other side is a glorious display of separation and differences....

And I suppose that brings us back to this discussion of Jinn

[greybeard]

There is nothing which is not God.
A good description is "Form,formless, both and neither"
Beyond description or understanding by the mind.
Yet we get pleasure in discussing.

Nice chatting with you Dawn.

Its a great thread.

Love Chris