The Banality of Evil

[Dorjezigzag]

To return to the thread title it is very easy to apply the label 'evil', but if one is empathetic you can see that many evil acts can be seen to have the roots in the suffering of the proponent. Many acts have no excuse but having empathy means trying to understand why actions are taken. Someones action may be evil but it may not be fair to totally write someone off as evil.

Evil acts can be banal, but it can also be unpredictable. They may be the acts of an establishment, or the acts against the establishment, they can be planned or they can be spontaneous, carried out methodically or in a passionate rage of anger.

'Evil' acts can be seen everywhere, even within Tibetan buddhism,

Ritual murder as a current issue among exile Tibetans

The terrible events of February 4, 1997 in Dharamsala, the Indian seat of government of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama, demonstrate that ritual human sacrifice among the Tibetans is in no way a thing of the past but rather continues to take place up until the present day. According to the police report on that day six to eight men burst into the cell of the 70-year-old lama, Lobsang Gyatso, the leader of the Buddhist dialectic school, and murdered him and two of his pupils with numerous stab wounds. The bloody deed was carried out in the immediate vicinity of the Dalai Lama's residence in a building which forms part of the Namgyal monastery. The Namgyal Institute is, as we have already mentioned on a number of occasions, responsible for the ritual performance of the Kalachakra Tantra. The world press — in as far as it reported the crime at all — was horrified by the extreme cruelty of the murderers. The victims' throats had been slit and according to some press reports their skin had been partially torn from their bodies (Süddeutsche Zeitung, 1997, No. 158, p. 10). There is even a rumor among the exile Tibetan community that the perpetrators had sucked out the victims' blood in order to use it for magical purposes. All this took place in just under an hour.

The Indian criminal police and the western media were united in the view that this was a matter of a ritual murder, since money and valuable objects, such as a golden Buddha which was to be found there for example, were left untouched by the murderers. The “mouthpiece” for the Dalai Lama in the USA, Robert Thurman, also saw the murder as a ritual act: “The three were stabbed repeatedly and cut up in a way that was like exorcism.” (Newsweek, May 5, 1997, p. 43).

In general the deed is suspected to have been an act of revenge by followers of the protective deity, Dorje Shugden, of whom Lobsang Gyatso was an open opponent. But to date the police have been unable to produce any real evidence. In contrast, the Shugden followers see the murders as an attempt to marginalize them as criminals by the Dalai Lama. (We shall discuss this in the next chapter.)
http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-2-06.htm

[Tony]

Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)
To return to the thread title it is very easy to apply the label 'evil', but if one is empathetic you can see that many evil acts can be seen to have the roots in the suffering of the proponent. Many acts have no excuse but having empathy means trying to understand why actions are taken. Someones action may be evil but it may not be fair to totally write someone off as evil.

Evil acts can be banal, but it can also be unpredictable. They may be the acts of an establishment, or the acts against the establishment, they can be planned or they can be spontaneous, carried out methodically or in a passionate rage of anger.

'Evil' acts can be seen everywhere, even within Tibetan buddhism,

Ritual murder as a current issue among exile Tibetans

The terrible events of February 4, 1997 in Dharamsala, the Indian seat of government of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama, demonstrate that ritual human sacrifice among the Tibetans is in no way a thing of the past but rather continues to take place up until the present day. According to the police report on that day six to eight men burst into the cell of the 70-year-old lama, Lobsang Gyatso, the leader of the Buddhist dialectic school, and murdered him and two of his pupils with numerous stab wounds. The bloody deed was carried out in the immediate vicinity of the Dalai Lama's residence in a building which forms part of the Namgyal monastery. The Namgyal Institute is, as we have already mentioned on a number of occasions, responsible for the ritual performance of the Kalachakra Tantra. The world press — in as far as it reported the crime at all — was horrified by the extreme cruelty of the murderers. The victims' throats had been slit and according to some press reports their skin had been partially torn from their bodies (Süddeutsche Zeitung, 1997, No. 158, p. 10). There is even a rumor among the exile Tibetan community that the perpetrators had sucked out the victims' blood in order to use it for magical purposes. All this took place in just under an hour.

The Indian criminal police and the western media were united in the view that this was a matter of a ritual murder, since money and valuable objects, such as a golden Buddha which was to be found there for example, were left untouched by the murderers. The “mouthpiece” for the Dalai Lama in the USA, Robert Thurman, also saw the murder as a ritual act: “The three were stabbed repeatedly and cut up in a way that was like exorcism.” (Newsweek, May 5, 1997, p. 43).

In general the deed is suspected to have been an act of revenge by followers of the protective deity, Dorje Shugden, of whom Lobsang Gyatso was an open opponent. But to date the police have been unable to produce any real evidence. In contrast, the Shugden followers see the murders as an attempt to marginalize them as criminals by the Dalai Lama. (We shall discuss this in the next chapter.)
http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-2-06.htm

Every sentient being has Buddha nature (an awakened nature).
Buddhists are not perfect.


Tony

[Dorjezigzag]

Every sentient being has Buddha nature (an awakened nature).

In the opinion of most Buddhists

Buddhists are not perfect.

Exactly, so perhaps try to have empathy with 'other' viewpoints, and not impose your own opinions as facts

[Tony]

Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)

Every sentient being has Buddha nature (an awakened nature).

In the opinion of most Buddhists

Buddhists are not perfect.

Exactly, so perhaps try to have empathy with 'other' viewpoints, and not impose your own opinions as facts

Isn't this was a forum for different views?
It stands to reason that every creature is aware, otherwise it could not survive.
Humans have the ability to recognise this awareness, and so awaken to their true nature.
Although animals cannot do this, I'll give them the respect of one day achieving enlightenment.

I fail to understand the aggression on this subject. The banality of evil is just suggesting that is
a misperception of our true nature, therefore we are governed by our negative emotions.

Tony

[Dorjezigzag]

Posted by Tony (here)

Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)

Every sentient being has Buddha nature (an awakened nature).

In the opinion of most Buddhists

Buddhists are not perfect.

Exactly, so perhaps try to have empathy with 'other' viewpoints, and not impose your own opinions as facts

Isn't this was a forum for different views?
It stands to reason that every creature is aware, otherwise it could not survive.
Humans have the ability to recognise this awareness, and so awaken to their true nature.
Although animals cannot do this, I'll give them the respect of one day achieving enlightenment.

I fail to understand the aggression on this subject. The banality of evil is just suggesting that is
a misperception of our true nature, therefore we are governed by our negative emotions.

Tony

"Although animals cannot do this"

In your opinion

I fail to understand the aggression on this subject

There is no aggression, I am calmly presenting an opinion, if you perceive that as aggression perhaps the aggression is in your perception
What we choose to see, we will often perceive.
Some people love to see 'others' with differing opinions as evil

[Milneman]

Isn't this was a forum for different views?
It stands to reason that every creature is aware, otherwise it could not survive.
Humans have the ability to recognise this awareness, and so awaken to their true nature.
Although animals cannot do this, I'll give them the respect of one day achieving enlightenment.

I fail to understand the aggression on this subject. The banality of evil is just suggesting that is
a misperception of our true nature, therefore we are governed by our negative emotions.

Tony



You think this is bad, Tony! Try explaining Emanual Kant and see how far we get!

Bottom line: we're all teachers and students to each other. You learn something even from the negative reactions you have. Maybe I'm feeling upset at that post because it's reflective of something I don't want to see in myself, maybe it's balderdash, or maybe I should express myself clearly and engage in debate...oooo, how cool would that be! A forum where debate happens and people learn from each other. (Wasn't and isn't that the entire point of the Academy?)

Preach on! We all take turns. That's the point!!

What's that got to do with Evil, capital E?

When we react in a way that conceals the inadequacies of our emotions, the ones that come up when something/someone gives us a reason to react, and we do have a choice (but it's become so second nature we have to learn to be aware of that choice-making), we put a grain of sand on a scale. Think about how many grains of sand we have put on the scale over the course of our lives, every lie no matter how big or small, every time we avoid responsibility, every time we choose the lighter choice because it would mean getting something we wanted to have over something we were uncomfortable doing. Tony, I think, is presenting one of many ways to learn how to see that process of putting sand on the scales. You learn why you do it, why you've been taught to do it that way, and how to stop doing it. And trust you me, I may be approaching this from the point of view of Christian mysticism but the results are one and the same with only very, VERY slight variations. Life, very simply, becomes better to live because it's simpler.

Here endeth the lesson....the strange Scottish parson yields the pulpit. ;O)

[Milneman]

Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)

Posted by Tony (here)

Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)

Every sentient being has Buddha nature (an awakened nature).

In the opinion of most Buddhists

Buddhists are not perfect.

Exactly, so perhaps try to have empathy with 'other' viewpoints, and not impose your own opinions as facts

Isn't this was a forum for different views?
It stands to reason that every creature is aware, otherwise it could not survive.
Humans have the ability to recognise this awareness, and so awaken to their true nature.
Although animals cannot do this, I'll give them the respect of one day achieving enlightenment.

I fail to understand the aggression on this subject. The banality of evil is just suggesting that is
a misperception of our true nature, therefore we are governed by our negative emotions.

Tony

"Although animals cannot do this"

In your opinion

I fail to understand the aggression on this subject

There is no aggression, I am calmly presenting an opinion, if you perceive that as aggression perhaps the aggression is in your perception
What we choose to see, we will often perceive.
Some people love to see 'others' with differing opinions as evil

You ever seen that app, "Dumb Ways to Die" that was put out by one of the railway organizations in the UK/Australia maybe? It's pretty funny! The entire game is to stop yourself from "dying" by not doing dumb things, like tossing wasp nests like footballs, standing too close to a train platform, eating a rotten pie, being shot during hunting season, or poking a bear with a stick just because you can.

[Tony]

The Reptilian brain – Beauty and the Beast.
An unusual view.

The Reptilian brain is our basic primitive brain, it controls flight, fight and freeze in every creature.
This principle perfectly reflects the basic principle of this universe: attraction, repulsion and inertia
- the principles in every atom.

Hidden deep in this Reptilian brain principle is absolute wisdom. It has a spiritual content!

The basic principle of a sentient universe (conscious universe) is: attraction, repulsion and inertia,
in other words- fight, flight and freeze.

If we look at the basics principles of human behaviour we find - desire, aversion and ignorance -
I like, I do not like, I do not care. These correspond exactly to the basic principles of the universe
– move towards, move away and indifferent.

Desire, aversion and ignorance are the neurotic states of the sentient mind. It all revolves around
this feeling of our mental image of “I”. The identification with this “I” creates the desire to defend
it's self, attack others or ignore. This dark side, creates conflicts and confusion in our minds and
this is also the state of play in the world.

But we all have a feeling there is more to us then merely animal reaction don't we?
And we are correct, but maybe it is not always clear.

There is another side to us, a Light side, and it's obvious when 'pointed out'!

We are aware. In the first instance of this awareness, there is pure awareness. There are no obstacles
to this pure awareness. It is pure perception, empty of contamination. It is present before Reptilian
brain kicks in. Before any reaction there has to be awareness, pure clear awareness without limitations.
This 'without limitation' is without fear, it is unconditional – before the effects of conditions.
It's pure openness - pure love.

Those three neurotic principles of desire, aversion and ignorance have three corresponding enlightened
three principles of Empty Essence, Cognisant nature and unconfined Compassion.

This is how they correlate.
Desire
- Emptiness
Aversion- Cognition
Ignorance- Compassion

Our essence is emptiness is pure sacred space. Desire arises creating concepts which fills this
sacred space. Emptiness get filled with fixated ideas.

Our nature is awareness is a knowing quality. Aversion arises when awareness creates an “I” through
forgetting its essence, and we start judging.

Our expression is unconfined compassionate is joy of being. Ignorance arises when empty
awareness forgets its own true nature and essence – emptiness and awareness – and that of others.
So we lack love.

When we recognise these principles of the universe they no longer control us: they are a direct reflection
of our true nature. They become our symbolic teacher. They become fun!


The true nature of reptilian brain is:
Emptiness – primordial purity
Cognisance – knowing awareness
Compassion-unconditional loving kindness.

We can stay a Reptilian
or Love.



Tony

[loungelizard]

I was wondering whether you'd read a book by Sacha Baron Cohen called "Zero Degrees of Empathy": in this, he says that the acts of cruelty that humans commit arise from "empathy erosion", which could be termed "evil".

In Hannah Arendt's book about Eichmann, her conclusion about "the banality of evil" seems to differ from Baron Cohen's research in the sense that Eichmann was not diagnosed with any psychological disorder whatsoever. He was able to commit the atrocities for which he was responsible simply because he didn't think about what he was doing. Eichmann showed no guilt for his actions during the holocaust, and neither did he seem to be driven by a hatred of the Jews. In his mind, he was quite simply "doing his job" and obeying the law of the Third Reich. That was the only thing that mattered to him, above and beyond the needs of any other human being.

I suppose that both these pieces of research confirm that evil is not something committed by "bad people". We all lack empathy to a greater or lesser degree, because we are all driven by the demands of our ego and its desire for validation and acknowledgement. As long as we are unable to control our actions and reactions, we will be capable of the whole gamut of deeds, some of which could be evil (cause harm).

When considered from a spiritual perspective, perhaps both good and evil could be considered in terms of their effect on the people's lives - they're not something abstract, but firmly rooted in the relative world.

It does seem that evil is closer than we think…it is an innate, inseparable part of being human, as is love.

It is a person's own mind, not his enemy or foe, that lures him to evil ways.
Gautama Buddha


PS I've just seen you posted Twelve Angry Men (what a film!) - a great example of how evil can manifest in ordinary, everyday situations when we are too lazy/selfish/greedy etc etc to be bothered...the member of the jury who wants to get the decision over with because he has a ball game to get to...

That is the banality of evil.

[Agape]

Posted by Tony (here)

Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)
To return to the thread title it is very easy to apply the label 'evil', but if one is empathetic you can see that many evil acts can be seen to have the roots in the suffering of the proponent. Many acts have no excuse but having empathy means trying to understand why actions are taken. Someones action may be evil but it may not be fair to totally write someone off as evil.

Evil acts can be banal, but it can also be unpredictable. They may be the acts of an establishment, or the acts against the establishment, they can be planned or they can be spontaneous, carried out methodically or in a passionate rage of anger.

'Evil' acts can be seen everywhere, even within Tibetan buddhism,

Ritual murder as a current issue among exile Tibetans

The terrible events of February 4, 1997 in Dharamsala, the Indian seat of government of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama, demonstrate that ritual human sacrifice among the Tibetans is in no way a thing of the past but rather continues to take place up until the present day. According to the police report on that day six to eight men burst into the cell of the 70-year-old lama, Lobsang Gyatso, the leader of the Buddhist dialectic school, and murdered him and two of his pupils with numerous stab wounds. The bloody deed was carried out in the immediate vicinity of the Dalai Lama's residence in a building which forms part of the Namgyal monastery. The Namgyal Institute is, as we have already mentioned on a number of occasions, responsible for the ritual performance of the Kalachakra Tantra. The world press — in as far as it reported the crime at all — was horrified by the extreme cruelty of the murderers. The victims' throats had been slit and according to some press reports their skin had been partially torn from their bodies (Süddeutsche Zeitung, 1997, No. 158, p. 10). There is even a rumor among the exile Tibetan community that the perpetrators had sucked out the victims' blood in order to use it for magical purposes. All this took place in just under an hour.

The Indian criminal police and the western media were united in the view that this was a matter of a ritual murder, since money and valuable objects, such as a golden Buddha which was to be found there for example, were left untouched by the murderers. The “mouthpiece” for the Dalai Lama in the USA, Robert Thurman, also saw the murder as a ritual act: “The three were stabbed repeatedly and cut up in a way that was like exorcism.” (Newsweek, May 5, 1997, p. 43).

In general the deed is suspected to have been an act of revenge by followers of the protective deity, Dorje Shugden, of whom Lobsang Gyatso was an open opponent. But to date the police have been unable to produce any real evidence. In contrast, the Shugden followers see the murders as an attempt to marginalize them as criminals by the Dalai Lama. (We shall discuss this in the next chapter.)
http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-2-06.htm

Every sentient being has Buddha nature (an awakened nature).
Buddhists are not perfect.


Tony

I'm not entirely sure what all pertains to the topic here .. and why did DorjeZigzag choose the above quote from page that I've encountered couple of times on the internet already and that is essentially very anti-Buddhist , or say anti-Tibetan ,

example of western scholasticism , and attempt to categorise phenomena and faith and customs of people that evolved for thousands of years in very different cultural backgrounds with tools of 'Freudian psychology' , merciless to the substance and culture it cares to analyse .

The people who put this book together have to be hating Tibetan Buddhism in its core , no matter how much time and effort they invested to studying it,
their work is not better as would be one of remote island shaman writing critical essay of Bible and Christianity after the crusaders murdered his family and therefor all he can see in the holy book is an example of psychopathology ,
devoid of sympathy and inherited initiation to the history and spirit of Judeo-Christian context ,
such work for sure - could offer 'great mirror' to some commonly accepted Christian beliefs but would be probably seen not only as heresy but hurtful misunderstanding from most good , and practising Christians .

Tibetan Buddhism tends to be misunderstood , especially for it's connection to the 'spirit world' , for inclusion of many non-human beings in its practises , for remoteness that's been impossible to access to the world outside for most of its historical development , not to speak about failing attempts of outsiders to adopt its language and culture as their own .

It's the 'spirit world' , worlds of transcendental Buddhas and Bodhisattvas , Dakinis , many classes of powerful spirits most of whom have been 'tamed' and turned to 'protectors of Buddhism' and many other classes of non-human entities that is especially confusing to modern day man .

And as I keep saying .. unless you grew up or lived in that culture .. the same way that you adopt certain customs within your families , whether you truly 'believe' in them or not, they are almost impossible to explain , to the world outside .
Every ancient tradition is based on family .. whether it was the Abrahamic religions, Mohammed and his 'clan' ,
the Shakya family of Buddha , or various - countless families of seers and prophets and shamans all over the world ,

there is undeniable similarity in way how every culture of old deified some of their ancestors and venerated the spirits of Elders who were Elders of that particular tribe .
When the village grandmother died she became one with the spirit world but she could be still approached for advice by the shamans and especially , some of her close relatives .

After generations and generations .. these fathers and mothers were no longer important as human individuals but some of them served as the 'link' between the two worlds - and were known as such , the spirit messengers, the Wise Ones .

Every old religion and society made use of these links ..

Now , speaking of ethics, I suppose that's something that keeps evolving with the shape and state of human society on Earth in general .
H.H. Dalailama in particular is calling for 'ethics of new millennium' and 'secular ethics' that he hopes would bridge and unite cultures and religious differences . Whether this is feasible and easy to do option is hard to say nevertheless ,

'higher ethics' such as the 'ten commandments' , or '5 Buddhist vows' are in heart and core of every major and approvable faith of our time today, whether it's Hindu Dharma or Islam or whether it's the secular law system .

What it means according to my view is that human society took its time to define and confirm its core ethical views and values and it did so , or does so ... uniformly .. in one direction.


The truth of human life is that human body is mortal, perishable , very rarely can live too long . It's vulnerable , prone to diseases , physical and mental failures . The number of vulnerabilities ( that are also called 'obstacles to enlightenment ' in Buddhism , said to be 80 million ) is almost infinite .
If human life and existence were not so complicated, I suppose the need for complex science views and research would never arise ,
we could well suffice with what the 'elders' thought they can last with , few essential principles .

But it isn't enough . It's never been enough . No single book or religion or credos could ever contain the life of individual , not to speak about the life of society .

Life evolves - regenerates its capacity - whatever way you prefer to think about it ... some think they actually 'evolve' - and they do,
others realise they're 'returning to the Source' - and they do . Or both simultaneously , if that's possible .

Likewise Tibetan Buddism is very complex and it has its own inner science , not studied and practised the same way as sciences have been understood at the western hemisphere , nevertheless .. it is inner science with roots extending thousands years back to history ..one pertaining deep to the nature of life , organic and inorganic matter , nature of mind and depth of space .
Looking at it from outside is somewhat like seeing your College building from outside ..


A 'murder' in every culture is just that , act of extreme sadness and violence that is not acceptable on base of any religious 'faith' . It's not a 'mistake' that can be excused or forgiven without handling the individual correctly .

From Buddhist perspective .. ignorant man is ill man . Someone who plots a murder or 'ritual sacrifice' with hope of achieving salvation for himself , can't be a healthy individual .
Such do exist in every culture, maybe every family .. bad apples . Some can be healed or helped to heal .. others not .

I think it's illness of certain people to seek revenge , or support in religious doctrines for evil acts .. while the same doctrines serve as good guide to the good,
they seem to be also tool for the wicked .

We all I think, should evolve and trust own intuition better . Rely on own wisdom rather than borrowed one . It saves lives and souls .

[Tony]

Buddha's teachings are perfect,
Buddhists are not.
Christ's teachings are perfect,
Christians are not.
Krishna's teachings are perfect,
Hindus are not.
Everyone's absolute nature is perfect,
but our relative nature is not.

Within every imperfect individual there is perfection.
This is oneness of the two truths.
Our imperfect relative nature holds the key to perfection.
It serves as a reminder: it's our teacher.

When we personalise everything, an I is present,
and we limit everything to a mundane illusion.
When we de-personalise everything, a mere I is present.
In the stillness of realising our true nature, no I is present.

The mundane obscures the supramundane.
Once we identify and recognise the obscuration, we are free
...until it comes back again. This why we practise.


Banality lacks originality. It just repeats.


Tony

[Agape]

I'd add this much ..not as a matter of argument .. despite common convictions .. Buddha at the end , did not claim any teachings as 'his own' .
The Diamond Cutter Sutra ( Vajrachedika Prajnaparamita Sutra ) is the best example of what he probably thought, realised and said to his disciples about 'his teachings' .

I don't think that Buddha or even Jesus thought of themselves as 'perfect' .

I think they were those who went far enough to face all their imperfections and perfections and rise beyond the horizon ..
they did actually face it hard . Buddha in his 6 years of extreme asceticism after which he realised that the effort to reach 'perfection' or 'divine state' is somewhat futile ..

and taking step back from the extreme effort he's 'got it' .

Jesus suffered the extreme of human pain and cruelty on the cross . There was hardly anything 'perfect' in it other than what his followers make of it .

When I discussed religions with some of my Muslim friends in Dharamsala, they say 'God does not want us to be perfect, he merely expects us to be good and loving people .. in Islam ..'muslim' comes from 'mumin' , meaning 'good man' . Man who loves other people is dear to God because we all are his children , not one better than the other .

I think ..as Tony says .. the banality of evil repeats itself ... so also the conviction of human race ( or parts of it ) that they can achieve 'perfection' or super-human status in human body .
It's been tried many times and at the end , always ended up in disaster . Whether the means were called 'magic' , 'genetic engineering ' , bioengineering , cybernetics or meditation.

Society neurosis and hunt for perfection and 'faith' , faith in promises given by science or by what people make of teachings and prophecies , faith that there is a technical and/or biological power and option for such perfection to be achieved , a short cut .

If there is , it's none else than who we are in essence and already now .

The rest of it seems to be long struggle for building own perfect world that we know has to collapse one day in distant future because it's never meant to be perfect ..

[Dorjezigzag]

Hi Agape,

The reason for my post which unlike many posts on this thread was focused on the nature of evil was to inspire posts such as yours. This comment particularly summed up where I am coming from

And as I keep saying .. unless you grew up or lived in that culture .. the same way that you adopt certain customs within your families , whether you truly 'believe' in them or not, they are almost impossible to explain , to the world outside

I have studied Tibetan Buddhism for a long time, I lived in a Buddhist centre for 2 years, I came to Tibetan Buddhism through shamanism as of course Tibetan Buddhism is a combination of the ancient shamanic bon religion and Buddhism. I have lived among Tibetans for long periods of time.

I do not hate Tibetan buddhism, on the contrary I have taken a lot from it, notice my avatar name, but I know it enough to see that what is usually presented as Tibetan buddhism in the west is not Tibetan Buddhism and as you say even if it was, the majority of people would not even understand it as it is so culturally alien

Although the Victor Trimondi article I posted obviously has an agenda, nothing in it is untrue as far as I can see and if you are to understand a belief system sometime you have to look at the less palatable( in western eyes) elements of a culture.

Many in the west view Tibetan Buddhism as all sweetness and light, with the smiling fluffy image of the Dalai lama, like a Tibetan Eckhart Tolle as a faith that has no skeletons in its closet, believe me it is far from perfect. When I met the Dalai Lama he struck me as having this curious combination of gentleness and strength. I have met one other person with this curious mix and he was a very powerful mafia boss. Saying that I have upmost respect for the dalai Lama, I have defended him on many a thread


In my opinion the way the thread was being directed as is the usual case with Tonys threads, was as follows

look this is why the west is evil, here is some selective tit bits of tibetan buddhist philosophy if only we could live like that there would be no problems. My example was merely showing that Tibetan Buddhism is not all peace and light.

Ultimately peace comes from the individual not any belief system, this is the world we are moving into.
Any system that is imposed will ultimately fail

Tibetan Buddhism is a system of control, there are things I know that i would never reveal, the west just would not understand it, but I think the time is not far off when more will be revealed.

I remember Tony's line often used to be Tibetan buddhism is effective because it is so logical and he used to like to question 'New Age' channeled material and on one level it is logical but on another level divining the future through throwing dough balls at walls and consulting professional oracles who for want of a better word channel knowledge is not very logical.

In the west they will usually ignore all those mystical elements, but without those elements you cannot understand Tibetan Buddhism. I actually like these elements.

Some people may view my post as a bit of a slap, Tony says I was being aggressive

Well if you find that aggressive what kind of Tibetan buddhist are you

Here is a video of Tibetan monks in debate, as always their arguments delivered with a slap

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=n47meDyom9E

Notice there are smiles as well
Love to all

[Agape]

Thanks for your answer Dorjezigzag , and your contribution here , I do understand what you mean .. the reason I reflected on your post in particular has nothing to do with you personally,
it just caught my eye .. because as you probably know as well, I've studied in Namgyal monastery in Dharamsala for several years and am familiar with the case and of course, this is a shame .. one of many to quote .. shame on the good name of Buddhism and what it represents .

I know what you mean but as Tony himself has said , you need to separate the two 'objects' here - one being Dharma and the other - human nature .

To say that 'Tibetan Buddhism' or 'Christianity' , for example , are not all 'love and light' does not explain a lot to casual reader . They probably just sigh and say 'we always knew that' .

Tibetan Buddism is subtle and complicated and Buddhist philosophy especially is about reasoning and discernment . If 'spirits' take over logic and ethics rather than otherwise it has very little to do with Buddhism as such , in my opinion .

It's late hour for me now so sorry for short reply ...


May all be well for you

[AutumnW]

Tony, Preaching drives me right out of my mind, whether it's coming from the East or Western traditions. You may not be particularly ego driven. I don't know, but just because some Buddhist priests yadayadayada about the dangers of ego, doesn't mean they aren't egomaniacal themselves. Buddhist holy men aren't all that. Some of them are ass clown pederasts. Some of them are okay. Some are great. Others are just very ordinary or banal types who run around in saffron robes.

[giovonni]

Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)

Ultimately peace comes from the individual not any belief system, this is the world we are moving into.
Any system that is imposed will ultimately fail

Love to all

onward and upwards warts and all ...

[Tony]

If one directs one's energy to the teachings and
the understanding those teachings, one develops a good heart.
Good heart = easy path!

Some love politics.
Some love rituals.
Some love dictionaries.
Some love experience.

Being mindful of these activities is important.
However,they can either unite us or divide us.
This is why it is best to practise in isolation.

Our problem with communication is that it relies on the level
or context in which we are talking. When on retreat with scores
of people studying the same text under the same teacher,
we don't all see eye to eye.
Talking exacerbates divisions, and this is why retreats are in silence…
..fewer projections!
After the retreat, we can only smile and nod.

As we progress, any movement away from pure awareness
is an obstacle. However. the obstacle can also be the teacher.

Samsara (the vicious cycle of existence) is our teacher
but it's not to be taken too seriously. When we get to a certain age
we recognise, decide and maintain. Then we are ready to pass on.


Tony

[Tony]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
Tony, Preaching drives me right out of my mind, whether it's coming from the East or Western traditions. You may not be particularly ego driven. I don't know, but just because some Buddhist priests yadayadayada about the dangers of ego, doesn't mean they aren't egomaniacal themselves. Buddhist holy men aren't all that. Some of them are ass clown pederasts. Some of them are okay. Some are great. Others are just very ordinary or banal types who run around in saffron robes.

Driving you out of your mind…sounds interesting!
If we are dissatisfied, then we can change.



Tony

[AutumnW]

If I am dissatisfied, I listen to my gut, assess the situation, summarize, draw flexible conclusions and communicate them. If the situation requires change on my part, I am actually okay with that, provided it makes sense. And conceding any kind of ground on a forum, in terms of personal cost ie ego, is nothing to me.

Some of the ideas I am reading here are contradictory. They are vague and ambiguous. Suggesting that there is a void in perception of the reader is like saying, "the Lord works in mysterious ways". The idea that we can be "beyond duality" for example, in this life, implies we should be reaching for some state or non state of amorphous goo-hood. You can "feel" at one and blissfully calm...but are still exposed to the laws of physics, and multi-causal forces acting on us all at all times. This is why people choose controlled environments to reach amorphous goo-hood in. Otherwise the meditator is going to get hurt.

[Shezbeth]

It appears the Dalai Lama is wearing his button through his finger. I'm not saying that one can't wear it that way, but I am saying that is not how I would wear it.

One could wax indefinitely about why he chose to wear it that way and I still would not agree to wear it so, nor would I agree that that is a better way to wear it than I would, if I even wore buttons.

Expound that metaphorically, and you have the basis for my contention to the thesis of this thread.

And yes, I recognize he is probably not wearing it through his finger.