Carl Sagan on Alien Abduction

[Agape]

Now , this is older article but must read in my opinion ...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/s...abduction.html

Carl Sagan on Alien Abduction


Carl Sagan was captivated by the notion of life beyond Earth. Yet in this interview, conducted shortly before the well-known champion of science died in 1996, Sagan says that extraterrestrial intelligence is “a wonderful prospect, but requires the most severe and rigorous standards of evidence.” Sagan doubted that the various proponents of so-called “alien abduction” making headlines in the 1990s had met those scientific standards.


A WONDERFUL PROSPECT
NOVA: Speculate for a moment on the parts of human nature, the commonality of believing in abductions, or aliens anyway, and the part of human nature that wants to search for other life forms in the universe.

Carl Sagan: I personally have been captured by the notion of extraterrestrial life, and especially extraterrestrial intelligence, from childhood. It swept me up, and I've been involved in sending space craft to nearby planets to look for life and in the radio search for extraterrestrial intelligence.
It would be an absolutely transforming event in human history. But, the stakes are so high on whether it's true or false that we must demand the more rigorous standards of evidence—precisely because it's so exciting. That's the circumstance in which our hopes may dominate our skeptical scrutiny of the data. So, we have to be very careful. There have been a few instances in the [past]. We thought we found something, and it always turned out to be explicable.
So, a kind of skepticism is routinely applied to the radio search for extraterrestrial intelligence by its most fervent proponents. I do not see [in] the alien abduction situation a similar rigorous application of scientific skepticism by its proponents. Instead, I see enormous acceptance at face value, and leading the witness, and all sorts of suggestions. Plus, the contamination by the general culture of this idea.
It seems to me there is a big difference between the two approaches to extraterrestrial intelligence, although I'm frequently written to [to] say how could I search for extraterrestrial intelligence and disbelieve that we're being visited. I don't see any contradiction at all. It's a wonderful prospect, but requires the most severe and rigorous standards of evidence.
Could you please comment on the part of the quality of the evidence that is put forward by these so-called "abduction proponents."

Well, it's almost entirely anecdote. Someone says something happened to them, and people can say anything. The fact that someone says something doesn't mean it's true. Doesn't mean they're lying, but it doesn't mean it's true.
To be taken seriously, you need physical evidence that can be examined at leisure by skeptical scientists: a scraping of the whole ship, and the discovery that it contains isotopic ratios that aren't present on Earth, chemical elements from the so-called island of stability, very heavy elements that don't exist on Earth. Or material of absolutely bizarre properties of many sorts—electrical conductivity or ductility. There are many things like that that would instantly give serious credence to an account.
But there's no scrapings, no interior photographs, no filched page from the captain's log book. All there are are stories. There are instances of disturbed soil, but I can disturb soil with a shovel. There are instances of people claiming to flash lights at UFOs and the UFOs flash back. But, pilots of airplanes can also flash back, especially if they think it would be a good joke to play on the UFO enthusiast. So, that does not constitute good evidence.


"Precisely because of human fallibility, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."


A very interesting example of this sort of thing is the so-called crop circles in England in which wheat and rye and other grains—these beautiful immense circles appeared and then—this was in the '70s and '80s—and then over progressive years, more and more complex geometries. And there were lots of people who said that these were made by UFOs that were landing and that it was too complex or too highly mathematical to be a hoax.
And it turns out that two blokes in Southern England, at their regular bar one night, thought it would be a good idea to make a kind of hoax to see if they could lure in UFO enthusiasts. And they succeeded every time—every time an explanation was proferred: a peculiar kind of wind, they then made another one which contradicted that hypothesis. And they were very pleased when it was said that no human intelligence could do this. That gave them great satisfaction. And for 15 years, they succeeded in these nocturnal expeditions using rope and board—all the technology they needed.
And in their 60's, they finally confessed to the press with a demonstration of how it was done. And, of course, the confession received very little play in the media. And the claims of alien influence had received prominent exposure.


EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS


I want you to comment on John Mack.

Many of the principle advocates of UFO abduction seem to want the validation of science without submitting to its rigorous standards of evidence. When John Mack talks about parallel universes or other dimensions, he's using scientific ideas. Those have long been in play in the physics and astronomy community. But, there is no evidence for them. He also criticizes the current paradigm that is the skeptical scientific method. But, this isn't validated. We don't believe it just out of prejudice; we believe it because it works.
In the absence of hard, physical evidence about alien abductions, what does science tell us about the plausibility of what these aliens are supposed to do?

Well, if you look at the advantages in human technology in just the last few hundred years, the Voyager spacecraft on its way to the stars, compared to what we knew in the time of Charlemagne, let's say, that's less than a thousand years. And the progress is simply stunning.
So, if you postulate the existence of highly technical civilizations, thousands, much less millions of years in our future, unless the hypothesis strongly contradicts known laws of physics, I think you have to say it's possible. So, travel at very high speeds between the stars, that's by no means out of the question. Walking through walls is a little tough for me—I don't see how it could be done. And the basic reading program idea of the alien abduction, the paradigm, they seem strangely backward in biology for all their advances in physics, if you take it seriously. Why are they doing breeding one-on-one at such a slow pace? Why not steal a few humans, sequence our DNA, look at variations and make whatever genetic engineering changes they want. We almost have the ability to do that. It seems naive in terms of molecular biology.



REASONABLE EXPLANATIONS


According to Hopkins and others, the main evidence for these stories—in the absence of other evidence—is the similarity of details. In your opinion, what other explanations might account for the similarity and the details of the stories or hallucinations of these abductees?

The culture contaminates. Movies, television programs, books, haunting pages of aliens, and television interviews with passionate abductees—all communicate to the widest possible community the alien abduction paradigm. So, it's not as if each abductee has been hermetically sealed from the outside world and has no input about what others are saying. It's all cross contaminated, and it has been for decades. I think that's the clearest evidence for it not being good evidence—that many people tell the same story.
If you could speak directly to the multitudes of people who believe they're going to bed and perhaps being abducted by aliens, what is it you would like to say to them?

If I were speaking to a group of abductees, I think the first thing I would do would be to tell them that I'm sure to many of them the pain that is expressed is genuine, that they're not just making this up. And it's very important to be compassionate. At the same time, I would stress that hallucinations are a human common place, and not a sign that you are crazy. And that absolutely clear hallucinations have occured to normal people, and it has a compelling feeling of reality, but it's generated in the head.





Read the rest of article on the page ( I think I've unintentionally omitted some paragraphs ). http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/s...abduction.html




Now ...the main point ... taking his statements at face value is very good ground to start from , of course . Every other SETI scientist today ..and the academic community at large keep almost precisely to what was said above .

Good as it sounds .... do I agree with it ? Yes in 95% of cases , bold NO for the rest . But you know , we all think about the same way when it comes to rationality and proofs .

Of course the reason why it does not let me sleep is because I've seen extremely advanced reality , entities and technologies back in 2002 in course of event that would match nothing, completely nothing in matters of 'human experience' . And I'm on the trail of thought on 'how to convey the data' to human science since then ,
and I do have some background in natural sciences and maths after all and know their reasoning too well to want to intimidate myself .

And there are many reasons WHY that event was of extraordinary importance .

....

Now let me tell you of something else ... the larger whole ... the 'tabu' of science and religions that ET life represents for most of human history ,
for fear that something would go tremendously wrong . For the fact itself that mankind is captured here by terrestrial gravity and living like a bunch of apes sometimes
and then some of them evolve to people of peace and others to barbarian hordes and fighters who pluck the world and natural resources , with great gusto .
It seems - and according to what I've seen - that this has been going on here since mankind came to existence and their 'starry evolution' is nothing than turning in loops .

Civilisations evolved and were subsequently destroyed . Various tribes inhabiting the globe had each very different character and gene 'twists' from the start and they could not always go well together .

This so called 21st century AD is very provisional number - 2014 years of human history - sounds like a success but if you look back you can't miss the millions of years whose records were lost and then you have people here telling you there are no records and ancestors were simple people, hunter-gatherrers brushing their stone tools ( most time of their history ) .

I've seen what I've seen that strongly contradicts this 'conventional claim' and I'm not alone on the 'theory' . Eventhough , I am not willing to swap real time observation for someones theories , in no case .

It makes me think though ... what is it that is truly imposing 'embargo' on willingness to acknowledge presence and origins of ET life , in humans , science in particular ,
it been a long held secret among occult societies of all sorts , beliefs , are the beliefs to blame for world wars ?

The fact is ... that many of the todays top notch scientists are descendants of generation who suffered through the nightmares of WWII . The whole absurdity of war ..which never ended .. the need to keep secrets . Not from any particular government in this case,
from everybody who could misuse any information that can be categorised , numbered , sold and used indeed .

Is the majority of scientific community - of those who have brains and knowledge to judge the situation - strongly against any sort of ET disclosure ? Knowing that they can keep the revelation away , long enough by boycotting it by their minds ?

The power of resistance ?

[araucaria]

To suggest that human intelligence is not alone in the gazillions of cubic parsecs that we call the universe is not an extraordinary claim; it is the most ordinary of ordinary common sense. Failing to act on that suggestion evidences collective autism of truly breathtaking proportions, which is another way of describing this tiny prison planet we currently live on, and which until only very recently has been the sum total of our restricted environment. But how do we act? Is there in fact anything definite that we need to be doing at all? Or is it simply a natural growing process to be experienced without panicking?

Take a chick in its egg; it has nothing left to eat and no room to move, and beginning to wonder if it isn’t dying. There presumably comes a point where for the first time it can hear something on the other side of its shell. It thinks it must be hallucinating because the very concept of an ‘other side’ is beyond its present understanding. It moves its head towards the sound, only to find that it is not just a pretty bunch of feathers; it has this hard sharp thing that has gone and broken something. It then discovers that there is an outside force making the hole bigger: its mother helping it to hatch.

If a planetary awakening works on these lines, then there will be untypical members of humanity forming a beak as opposed to feathers and preparing to make the breakthrough that will bring outside help. Then there will be those forming the ear hearing new sounds that are not a hallucination. And then there will be the feathers, keeping the animal warm and feeling the extra heat as it gets closer to the hen. The difference with the chicken is that we are conscious cells acting consciously to achieve this. We are in the process of working out who belongs where and coordinating our action. It makes sense to see some hard science in the beak, but we are also going to need a strong pair of feet to stand on. Many good scientists will maybe not be involved in the actual breakthrough, but they are waiting behind the scenes (literally in the wings) to spring into action when the time comes.

[Agape]

That's a beautiful example Araucaria , the one with the civilisation chicken breaking out of the shell .. it also very much suggests that the whole problem is waiting for a breakthrough ..

Are we growing up to it ( as human civilisation ? ) ? Possibly . Are we working in one direction to solve the problem ? Not as I see it .

If the human space-time represents one dimension of existence covered by its own shell ..which is how I see it in either case ,
so it goes with all other defined 'dimensions' or time-spaces inhabited by intelligent beings , they all have their laws and boundaries , shells to be respected and their crossing requires extra amount of energy ,
proportionally more to any amount of energy to be spent within any such dimension , even to the point that its inhabitants would feed of the energy and consume the source of its own sustenance ,

and extra amount of information/intelligence that would be provide valid communication link between the two .

Now using the 'extra' word here is hardly a chance .. because the whole problematics starts with receiving or rather being able to receive external input , beyond the one available in its isolated 'sphere' .

As you've said , the chicken still in the egg , like a child in womb do not have their senses fully developed and consider noises or other 'signs' coming from outside of their womb part of their 'inner universe' , their long dream ... perhaps a cacophony of voices , frequencies they can't understand .

At the same time ..they say that child in womb can already recognise his parents voice or listen consciously to music , it may be aware of both positive and negative events evolving outside .. but what he/she thinks they represent is probably whole another matter .

...

In my best opinion, joining our different skills and working in one direction is what would solve the problem much faster .. if the breakthrough and solution was desired .

For example now, the SETI say they're listening to range of decent frequencies and trying to detect intelligent signal .

Communication is the key ... before any form of visual or other contact can be established .

At the same time .. there are thousands of people who had experienced some form of intelligent contact/communication from the other side of the dimensional veil ,
and good few who experienced direct sort of contact .

To discern between the two , without knowing the exact parameters of what are we dealing with technically, is rather difficult .

Yet ..in either case ... if these people were listened to and investigated, using real scientific methods ( rather than 'mock regression hypnosis' ) they could well answer questions of certain physical value that would be applicable and testable by our own means .
Such as ... what is the frequency where communication is possible between humans and ETs and what are the circumstances enabling its function.

From my experience ...in cases of genuine contact events .. and using correct form of interview , such data could become available .


Once we can discern the message from the white noise ... aren't we much closer ..

[Robin]

I have been trained as a scientist, but once I opened my eyes and ears to the range of contactee/abductee/whistleblower testimony circulating around...I could not fathom discounting the evidence that actually does exist. Most scientists claim to be open-minded, because in order for one to conduct a study with integrity and good, clean data, you MUST be open-minded and UN-biased.

But unfortunately, most of these self-proclaimed open-minded scientists, such as Richard Dawkins, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and Carl Sagan are still heavily ingrained in scientism (not unlike organized religion). As a scientist, I could not deny any of the conspiracies that are present within society, because they simply make sense in the grand scheme of things. Once I became awake and aware, I exchanged all of my science books with science & spirituality books...because science does not make sense without spirituality.

These famous scientists I mentioned, whom I greatly respect, are most certainly pressured by the scientific and religious community to maintain a clean reputation. Even if they wanted to entertain serious prospects of E.T. abductions, it would ruin their reputation and they would be out of work. I still do not think that this should be a valid reason for keeping their mouths shut on certain matters, however.

As a scientist, I use logic, reasoning, and common sense to discern the Truth. This is also what most scientists claim to use when sifting through information. The only difference is that I have come to accept that there does NOT have to be physical evidence for something to be true, or potentially true. Just like we use our jurisdiction measures to sentence somebody to a lifetime in prison based SOLELY off of witness testimonial, we should also do the same when it comes to E.T. interactions and other "conspiracies."

Also, I don't think many people understand that corrupt governments (which none of these scientists would deny) do corrupt things. This includes covering up the Truth by bashing the character of somebody who was abducted and hiding the physical evidence. If the governments of the world have not been taking away free-energy devices and UFO scraps, while killing or shutting-up witnesses, then these scientists would have their physical evidence.

If one believes that government cover-ups exist, then it should not be difficult to believe that E.T. visitations have happened. Logic, reasoning, and common sense. In fact, there is a plethora of physical evidence of government cover-ups throughout history, especially the last sixty years. So given that this is a fact, it should also be greatly considered that they have been covering up physical evidence of E.T. interactions...

[InnoSent]

What do you think of Phillip J. Corso?

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=jAfTY7NuceQ

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ezJYX7ec5sQ

Is he a shill?

I thought I could debunk him by researching all of the items he claims came from an alien spacecraft.

I'm still looking. How did we jump from using breadboards to integrated circuits? It happened really quickly! Whose idea was that? Ask these questions and you'll eventually come to this:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=z47Gv2cdFtA

Still, at that point, the microprocessor was not even a dream but it did lay the foundation for it. The world's first microprocessor is the "intel 4004" and if you study how that came into conception, you are directed back to Fairchild Semiconductor. I watched a documentary about the "4004" and one of the designers claimed that the base for it came from designs by Fairchild Semiconducter. I don't know or even care if this is the result of corporate espionage or not but in any case, at least one of the four designers had absolutely no problem admitting that he was previously employed by Fairchild. Perhaps they had fulfilled their purpose and lacked the resources for further development. Either way, this task of producing microprocessors was the most important concept in USA and, indeed, the entire world, even before the designers could test it out and see what practical applications it could serve.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=j00AULJLCNo

At 11:14 Ted is being hailed for his numerous awards in his role as co-inventor of the microprocessor. Look at his expression! Does this look like an appropriate response. He looks decidedly guilty. As if to say "I don't deserve this". A little too humble I think.



Here's where I stand. I believe what Corso said. All other public speakers fall on their own weight.

When you think about this story, it's much like the story of Prometheus; who took fire from the gods in order to help mankind.

[lastlegs]

One of the things to remember about Sagan is his book Contact. In the book there are 5 people from 5 different countries who go on the first so called space contact. In the book, and the movie, the issue of people in governments being more concerned with money, power and prestige and its corollary of corruption is detailed. In both, it is pointed out that 95% of the population of the world are believers in at god the source. The Jodie Foster character is initially rejected as being to outside the norm for being a scientific atheist which is how Sagan technically holds himself. The whole point of the book is that ETs would choose a unique and unusual way to reveal themselves that requires some kind of leap of faith.

The book was popular not because it is good science fiction but because it resonates with an "emotional" truth. I can hardly believe that Sagan would use that tactic without some explicit purpose. There were lots of way the book could have been written as a thriller without in effect validating the concept of ETs.

[Omni]

It would be an absolutely transforming event in human history.

I agree.

But, the stakes are so high on whether it's true or false that we must demand the more rigorous standards of evidence—precisely because it's so exciting.

I disagree. I think it's the mark of an idiot to not know ETs are out there. Knowing they are here is another story but all that takes is some research. ET contact isn't that farout when there are trillions of galaxies, and trillions of planets inside galaxies. That simple fact should be enough for any mind to conclude ET life is much more than a mathematical probability.

There are instances of people claiming to flash lights at UFOs and the UFOs flash back.

I liked this one.. A way of saying hi when they cannot talk to us mostly..

Posted by InnoSent (here)

Here's where I stand. I believe what Corso said. All other public speakers fall on their own weight.

When you think about this story, it's much like the story of Prometheus; who took fire from the gods in order to help mankind.

I totally think Corso was for real. I read his book 'The Day After Roswell' a long time ago. Very interesting read for my comprehension at the time..

[Agape]

Posted by InnoSent (here)
Here's where I stand. I believe what Corso said. All other public speakers fall on their own weight.

When you think about this story, it's much like the story of Prometheus; who took fire from the gods in order to help mankind.

I do believe . But let me tell you ..somehow this argument mysteriously pops up each time that new contact occurs ..

it's hard to say why .. perhaps because it affected so many peoples believes ?

We planned a radio show with Mel Fabrigas in 2011 that never happened for me afterwards, the circumstances of my induction to it looked equally mysterious ..
Mel questioned me mostly about Barry King , instead of my own data that were too 'out of the plan' for him ( as if there was a plan ..plan he thought the US have , and one that includes people like him and those he's already interviewed ) .
One of the target questions he asked me .. in what I thought he considered private sort of intel briefing was 'do I believe in Roswell' ?

The precedence to this was his interviewee Sanni Ceto who is very interesting lady , considers herself incarnation of one of the Roswell survivors .

http://sanniceto.tripod.com

https://youtube.com/watch?v=xqTrb2MDbyg ( Sanni Ceto on Veritas Show, Segment 1 )

I came to meet Sanni online and had some rare communication with her and from my point of view , I consider her completely authentic . It does not mean that everything she says can be verified or true to the point .
She's but one of few people I met through out my life who belong to this particular race of ETs .
With most probability ..and unless you're very well intentioned individual you may not meet anyone as such your all life .

I have a 'feel' for ETs because of all my personal experiences and simply because being me but not everyone does .
I do know how this works in real life, on my own skin. Once you 'peel off' the human layer and show people what you think is the most real, and truthful self .. whatever its origins , most people won't understand .
As if the 'sense' for seeing this straight happened to be petrified in them . Where you expect soft sentient spot in brain, there's grey numb area that senses nothing .

At the end it hurts . Because even if your intelligence and form are beautiful unless the people or individual are open and receptive to sensing it , they'll filter all the reality through a dipper of learned archetypes and theories .

Well...in a jest of sort .. I told Mel to his question what I make of Roswell that honestly, I don't feel entitled to answer to it since I was not present .
It had no direct connection to the events I experienced ..neither I was ever influenced by the realm of ufology ( probably the same way as if someone claimed they've been influenced by AlQuieda by reading monthly newspapers )
and though I'd fully support the existence of ET visits and encounters on Earth AFTER what I've came to know, not as a matter of faith but direct insight and awareness to the scale of events,
there wasn't any exact note in me to do with Roswell . I don't think it's important .

I think there were contact events on all 7 (?) continents and 14 seas ..and from what I know truly, no ET craft from above does recognise humanly designated borders and territories . So whether they land /crash in Mexico , New Mexico or the outskirts of Baghdad the poor dears will have to consider your 'delegates' as representatives of human kind .
Any doubts why they keep certain sort of distance ?


From my knowledge again .. I don't think they want to have to do anything with any of human governments, or organisation structures . Some of them see this place as completely disorganised and one huge mess and they are actually convinced that we either have no such organisation structures or they're exceedingly primitive ..

others don't even understand our ways we try to structure society on earth. Our own ET predecessors had no leaders and no governments, they did not need them .
They had no business among themselves - guess they'd consider it completely childish and uneconomical , exchanging goods for services with your own family , think of playing monopoly on spacecraft ..

I think that this part may get actually the most difficult to understand between two different civilisations in space. It's not the biology or technologies ( however intriguing and complicated ) , it's the social structures , hierarchies and customs .
It's a bit like trying to understand how someones odd family works from inside . It would never work at you . There is does ..


...



Part2 another time

[Agape]

Posted by lastlegs (here)
One of the things to remember about Sagan is his book Contact. In the book there are 5 people from 5 different countries who go on the first so called space contact. In the book, and the movie, the issue of people in governments being more concerned with money, power and prestige and its corollary of corruption is detailed. In both, it is pointed out that 95% of the population of the world are believers in at god the source. The Jodie Foster character is initially rejected as being to outside the norm for being a scientific atheist which is how Sagan technically holds himself. The whole point of the book is that ETs would choose a unique and unusual way to reveal themselves that requires some kind of leap of faith.

The book was popular not because it is good science fiction but because it resonates with an "emotional" truth. I can hardly believe that Sagan would use that tactic without some explicit purpose. There were lots of way the book could have been written as a thriller without in effect validating the concept of ETs.

I like the movie very much ..there's more to it than meets the first eye .

The plot is archetypal and it should keep reminding people ( including the hard science nuts ) that things won't happen the way they plan them ..

in case of intelligent entities, more advanced than average mankind and on their own way ..certainly not .

There's also that beautiful part with what Dr Arroway actually experienced in the 'probe' is being questioned and doubted and the effect of the big adventure is so tiny and made to look as non existent .
I did not notice this 'cospirative bit' properly when I watched the movie first time . But they almost take her through the same level of doubt and ridicule in front of the congress that your average 'contactee' experiences without holding 'proofs of evidence' in their hands ,
that all after building billion $ equipment .

Somehow we're still caught in the same paradigm ..

no matter the technical improvement .. yes it makes life easier ..

6 years earlier my posts used to self delete if I typed too long

[Jake]

extraterrestrial intelligence is “a wonderful prospect, but requires the most severe and rigorous standards of evidence.

I would tend to agree,, but that does not say until that day comes,, we should ignore it. As we look out into the cosmos and learn more and more,, we find that there is a lot out there that we cannot apply to rigorous standards of evidence. But that does NOT mean that we should IGNORE it... Proof is a sliding scale, sometimes. What is proof to one,, may not be proof to another... Science teams were sent to the moon, and they verified that it was there... I could have told them that!!!! There is a certain absurdity when it comes to insisting that all things can be described by current scientific understandings. It is flawed... IMHO.

BTW, the example about the chicken in the egg was brilliant. Excellent analogy. I've use one about catapillars, and cocoons.. Same general idea.

Cheers
Jake.

[Wind]

I loved the Contact movie too, this space travel scene was quite astonishing. When it comes to Sagan, I enjoyed some of the episodes of original Cosmos show even though I disagreed with many of the views presented there, even the new Cosmos has outdated information (too hard to admit the existence of the electric universe) even though Neil DeGrasse Tyson is one of the best scientist out there in the spotlight, just like Michio Kaku is. When it comes to agenda, I'm not exactly sure what agenda Sagan had or what agenda Michio Kaku has. Some of the scientists are brilliant, but others have hold views due to their ignorance. When science is not combined with spirit we create atomic and neutron bombs or have technology way worse than that...

Entertaining they are nevertheless, even though I really don't understand the closed mindset of skeptics, even though in a sense I am one. I just have an open mind and experiences which are not of this world (neither am I) ... I guess you have just to experience and see something before you believe and know it to be true.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=scBY3cVyeyA

[Agape]

Wind ... from my own perspective .. aside of the well known to be controversial agendas ( I think it's mostly about funding and peer pressure ) many of these scientists working quietly in backgrounds are as you'd say 'astonishingly' inspired and inspirational people .. they tend to know their limits and repeat themselves
which is what you're bound to do once you are in education system .
The only way how not to repeat yourself ( for me ) is not to write papers and stop teaching people .
Because once you start transmitting your knowledge or perspective in serious or even semi-professional manner , you'll inevitably meet people asking the same questions and all goes in rounds .

Of course you're right in that direct experience is required .. for willing to be engaged . In fact it was mostly direct experiences and encounters - of whatever kind - that brought people to science .. especially in the past . But the need for this quest arises simultaneously with the progression of our lives ..

As Jake said , not everything that exists can be also automatically proved . It's more true about things much closer to us such as workings of our own body and mind.
Psychology and medicine , in both cases , very often know that 'things work' such and such way , or not .. it goes by experience and observation,
yet there is long long way to proving them de facto and finding true ( and very complex ) chain of causes and consequences , leading often to more questions than answers .

People made bread out of various corns for thousands of years and used herbs as both food and medicine , without knowing what they contain.
There are many things in our life we have to base on experience instead 'scientific method' and not being able or opened to experiment may at the end result in severe phobias ..we do live on the edge of great unknown ... admittedly or not ..

things we can bank on , our isles of safety are comparatively tiny to the vast universe within and without .

What puzzles me here .. is not the missing personal experience of rigorous scientists ...
you see .. them too are human beings. Most have their lives apart from their labs . Personal victories and failures .
For the few 'shiny examples' who seem to be at the top of the pyramid and propagate their version of truth and science, it seems that science is the ultimate recipe for solving all our troubles.
Way to healthy life in another words . It can be misguiding . One funny example of that was notoriously known psychologist here in Prague proclaimed and searched for as expert on relationships and addictions.
The same person ( in his 90s nowadays if still alive ) was married and divorced about 6 times in his life .

The trick is that in academia , most people live kind of double lives . In matters of faith- no faith, various other beliefs , life styles and interests , sexual orientation and so forth. Political opinions and health matters .
The criterium of being 'in' and being successful is in being able to handle this careful image and two faces , one for home and one for the office .. and if any remains to be you, well cheers .
I admire some of them because I chose not to go the same way ... precisely for not wanting to live personal lie . Agree to things just to keep an image .

So I do believe some of these people have experiences , the same way they do have spiritual experiences and ET contact experiences , most of which they can't mention to anyone , maybe not even their psychiatrist

It's not only that I think that ..but I do know that ETs are keen to contact people with extraordinary intelligence . Whether such contact builds to 'friendship' and what's the remaining human role in it remains a mystery ..

The nut hard to crack ( for me ) is whether all these people automatically reject the possibility that their experiences would be something provable .

[araucaria]

Continuing my earlier post #2, the difference between a chicken and an egg is of course that an egg = chicken + eggshell. The question is whether the human eggshell is a totally natural phenomenon or has been tampered with. This would be equivalent to, say, adding the chitin found in crab shells to make the eggshell too tough to break. A crab can only moult through a back door. A chicken would be completely stuck. Such tampering might be another way of looking at the negative aspect of reincarnation mooted on this forum, as hitting a kind of glass ceiling.


There is a totally unnatural version of this process described in Stephen King’s Under the Dome. A dome comes down over an entire city, and while under this dome, things like law and order break down completely. The dome turns out to be the toy of some other-dimensionals: not evil beings, just some kids fooling around and who are prevailed upon to desist. The dome is invisible but its position is clear as a cut-off point. Anything running into it will be smashed as if by a brick wall. We can’t by definition actually see a dome of this type, but we sure can see the total breakdown of things like law and order. Similarly we can locate this boundary: wherever there is a clampdown on whistleblowing, free energy and other such activities.


It can also be located at the very point where ET has trouble connecting with earthlings: at the level of our leadership. Since we are now discovering a little about where we got this system from, I suggest that the matter be taken, if this hasn’t already happened, to the person in charge, one Anu, address Planet Nibiru, currently some nine hundred years from here; just ask around, he’s quite well known. I gather Simon Parkes is working on this.


Regarding frequencies and possible contact with scientists, there is one person I can think of – or at least there was, she seems to have died this year, aged 98 bless her: Valerie V. Hunt:
http://valerievhunt.com/ValerieVHunt..._Hunt_EdD.html
Valerie Hunt has done laboratory studies on things like trance, past lives, healing or telepathy by doing scans on practitioners as they performed. (She also personally engaged in these activities.) In the post quoted below, when I say human brain, it would be more correct to say human field or human aura:

Posted by araucaria (here)
This is something I wrote about a while back regarding a graph in Valerie Hunt's book Infinite Mind : Science of the Human Vibrations of Consciousness, in which she has a diagram of the frequency range of the human brain: if you were to keep to the scale of the range 0-250 Hz, you would end up with a diagram 32 pages (edit: 32 meters) (> 250 pages) wide.

Posted by araucaria (here)
Found the book at last and the diagram - I said "32 pages (> 250 pages) wide", that should of course read "32 meters (> 250 pages) wide".


Attachment 21345

Given that frequencies have been mapped up to 200 KHz on purpose-built equipment of much greater sensitivity than what was otherwise available, it should be possible to apply this method to ET experiencers for example, and see what is going on when they have telepathic contact – possibly not too easy to set up in the lab… It would be interesting to see how this fits in with her following experience and answers the question it raises:

If we actually believe that we can get what we ask for, we will. Many times I came upon a research problem that I could not solve – I had no idea even where to turn. Help from the usual sources was inadequate. So I broadcast my need to the universe, asking for the most knowledgeable people to assist me. They came, four of them, a physicist, an engineer, a pharmacologist, and a chemist. Some called almost immediately to ask what I wanted. Strangely, I didn’t even know them. Others asked to see me and didn’t know why until we met. A telepathic communication system had brought us together. (p.143)

My question then is: four scientists, who probably didn’t even believe in this stuff, showed up: why did no ET? It can’t be lack of knowledge. It can’t be the lady’s mind being closed to such contact. And it can’t be the inability to pick up a message advertised on this universal wavelength – unless of course it wasn’t universal at all, but somehow earthbound, confined by the dome.


Computer systems are built like crabs: they have a back door. The matrix is no different: after all, contact has been made on numerous occasions. We need to find that back door.

[Agape]

My question then is: four scientists, who probably didn’t even believe in this stuff, showed up: why did no ET? It can’t be lack of knowledge. It can’t be the lady’s mind being closed to such contact. And it can’t be the inability to pick up a message advertised on this universal wavelength – unless of course it wasn’t universal at all, but somehow earthbound, confined by the dome.


Computer systems are built like crabs: they have a back door. The matrix is no different: after all, contact has been made on numerous occasions. We need to find that back door.

Realtivity - Araucaria - relativity of what possible is ... is my honest answer . And the point where 'ardent spiritualists' tend to fall . There had been many such examples of people who went on to try and prove ( themselves or others ) how and that mind power works .

Now I'm not saying that it does not work ..but in my best opinion , as with every other physical process there are laws to be observed and applied to it .
The experiment as you've described it above may work through sort of 'entanglement ' and it's been tried many times and it's actually fairly difficult to state whether the person asking for 4 scientists to appear was the 'transmitter' or the 'recipient' of the frequency .
One may argue that she could sense the encounter forwards ..that does not yet sound like sufficient and plausible explanation , and therefor she wished for them to appear .

Brain is capable of playing many small and big tricks on people which is called : faith : in result and one reason why people have believes and faiths at all ..
because brain is capable of playing with-itself .

I'm not saying 'that's it' though, I think the explanation is truly in the entanglement factor of the larger and not yet well explored category of social - global consciousness and the way people are connected - as larger whole . It works , should work within every group of species and ecosystem , it just does not work perfect on earth .
For too many reasons to quote .

But let me tell you this ... back at start ... try going somewhere to the Himalayas .. or middle of empty landscape ... where presumably and practically , your mind is undisturbed and the most powerful and focus on bringing the 4 chosen personnel to you ..
how long do you think it may take , unless you give them a phone call

Try even something much simpler like attracting a piece of cake ... in place where food is scarce .

It's the same situation with ETs .. imagine how far does it take to travel here from everywhere and even if they build few observation posts and send few emissaries now n then , they can't play a 'call girl' .
They may well happen to show to someone earnestly wishing to see them ... but I'd ask again whether the person who wished to see them and it happened actually 'sensed ' and prepared his brain for the encounter forwards ..

rather than he/she would be able to attract 'UFOs' ( or chemists ) , especially if they are nowhere in your vinicity .


My answer to this is that conscious ET-Human encounters are rare .. and the information should be investigated by means adequate to the weight and sensitivity of the situation , using laser sharp logic .
We're talking of encountering reality that is very sublime , powerful and precise at the same time .

It can't be exactly 'cloned' and applied to human space-time . Yet , if we use power of discernment ... we have the tools to meet this reality already,
under some auspicious occasion, I believe ...