Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

[Cidersomerset]

Over 1,100 killed, 3,500 wounded in E.Ukraine op, civilian toll climbs daily

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dINpRvfohQU

Published on 28 Jul 2014


Five civilians have been killed in the eastern Ukrainian city of Lugansk, one of the hubs
of anti-Kiev resistance and a main target of the Ukrainian military. In its most recent
report, the UN is raising the alarm over the growing number of civilians killed in the
region by artillery fire, which has been hitting residential areas.


RT LIVE http://rt.com/on-air

[Cidersomerset]

Another false flag? MH 17 likely downed by a SU fighter jet about 20 miles south east of Gorlovka

new Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 10:25 By david-icke





‘This could almost be a smoking gun of the false flag attack with respect to MH 17. Some five hours after
the loss of MH 17, the Ukrainian Security Service published a recording of alleged pro-Russian military
officers led by commander Bes, who is based in Gorlovka (Horlivka), allegedly confirming that they shot
down the Malaysian Boeing 777.’

Read more: Another false flag? MH 17 likely downed by a SU fighter jet about 20 miles south east of Gorlovka




http://vladimirsuchan.blogspot.ca/20...ly-downed.html

[Snoweagle]

Posted by Cidersomerset (here)
U.S. General Says Pentagon Looking At Possible Military Options For Russia

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=h1bk1bhBYio

==============================================

'EXERSIZE' .........."Alarm bells anyone" ?
UK to send ‘full military battle group’ to Poland to show strength of the West

new Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 10:06 By david-icke


‘The UK will send a full battle group comprising 1,350 personnel and more than 350 armoured and other vehicles to the exercise in Poland as part of a NATO package to reassure Eastern European allies, the Defence Secretary announced today.
During a joint visit to Warsaw with Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond, Michael Fallon announced the UK will take part in Exercise Black Eagle in October – the largest British commitment to the region since 2008.
This new commitment is one of a planned series of NATO manoeuvres due to take place throughout the Autumn in support of allies in Eastern Europe and the Baltic states.’

Read more: UK to send 'full military battle group' to Poland to show strength of the West
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/492...iance-strength

This is extremely concerning. When the Dollar collapses the US and EU aligned nations (the Axis of Evil) will persecute national food shortages and loss of energy for their populations. "Irish food famine part deux). There will be rioting in the streets and Mercenaries will be used to quell unrest. THE MERCENARIES ARE ALREADY HERE IN THE UK. Some I have personally met were "Serbs" or ex patriots from the Yugoslav region though I have little else to elaborate on their business. There will be zero empathy. Stadiums will be prison camps during the winter and it will be the coldest winter ever on record.

Therefore, it appears the incidents of the Ukraine MH17 and Gaza, whilst failing at the first attempt to promote all out warfare doesn't seem to have quashed the intent to depopulate the UK or indeed our "friends".

[Cidersomerset]

This is extremely concerning. When the Dollar collapses the US and EU aligned nations (the Axis of Evil) will persecute national food shortages and loss of energy for their populations. "Irish food famine part deux). There will be rioting in the streets and Mercenaries will be used to quell unrest. THE MERCENARIES ARE ALREADY HERE IN THE UK. Some I have personally met were "Serbs" or ex patriots from the Yugoslav region though I have little else to elaborate on their business. There will be zero empathy. Stadiums will be prison camps during the winter and it will be the coldest winter ever on record.

Therefore, it appears the incidents of the Ukraine MH17 and Gaza, whilst failing at the first attempt to promote all out warfare doesn't seem to have quashed the intent to depopulate the UK or indeed our "friends".

This is what concerns me and the fact things are being vamped/hyped up all over
the world more than usual....

'My esoteric side, says not in my reality' .....but these victims are suffering....



* Scary*...Ebola Virus Could Spread Worldwide, Experts Warn // War , Famine, Drought ..Is the stage being set ?

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...tage-being-set

[Hervé]

Posted by Cidersomerset (here)
Surface to air missile attack ruled out as calibre of cockpit bullet holes puts Ukraine pilots in the frame for MH17 murders

New MH 17 Sensation: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets

new Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 10:32 By david-icke

[...]

Read more: New MH 17 Sensation: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets

http://investmentwatchblog.com/new-m...ir-force-jets/

An interesting comment to the above article:

HoustonReal • 13 hours ago This article uses a picture of an SU-27, but the German "experts" claim Ukrainian SU-25s shot down MH17. One large problem, the SU-25 Frogfoot is not a fighter, but an attack aircraft analogous to the USAF A-10. It has a maximum service ceiling of 23,000 feet when unloaded, and around 16,000 with full weapons. MH17 was cruising at 33K feet, 10K feet (almost 2 miles) higher than the SU-25 can reach.

It is also too slow to effectively intercept a Boeing 777, with a maximum airspeed of only 31 mph above the airliner's cruising speed. Modern interceptors need to be much faster to allow the fighters to quickly overtake a target and maneuver for as gun or middle shot. Sub-sonic attack aircraft make poor interceptors against any other jet aircraft. If they get lucky, they might be able to down a helicopter or prop-driven plane. What kind of aviation "expert" can ignore the inability of an SU-25 to intercept an airliner at cruising altitude and speed?

So, now, the misdirection points towards Kiev... leaving Schiphol alone...

At least, and at last, they are looking at the right kind of pieces of evidence!

[Operator]

"Wars and rumors of wars ... "

See also my post here about war with socialistic Venezuela.

So if I understand correctly there was a workable peaceful way of investigating the crash site,
now Ukraine decided to conquer that site in the middle of the investigation, the US (west) will
start building tension in Poland and Putin is to blame for a rising chance of war in that area ?

Sometimes I wonder why I chose to reincarnate in this world full of stupidity ... Yeah, I know
to restore the balance with some sanity. But this is so ridiculous that I wonder if it works.
When I talk with family and friends (some of them in the NL) it seems the demonizing has
already done its work ... they simply don't seem to get it.

Or are they trying to let us like Putin so much that we are driven in his hands to take over
the world (Perestroika deception)?

[ktlight]

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=o6aiKtQ6hZ8

"Published on Jul 29, 2014
Images of plane from:
http://www.maxresistance.com/breaking..."

This is an interesting point of view.

[Snoweagle]

Posted by Cidersomerset (here)
Another false flag? MH 17 likely downed by a SU fighter jet about 20 miles south east of Gorlovka
new Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 10:25 By david-icke

‘This could almost be a smoking gun of the false flag attack with respect to MH 17. Some five hours after
the loss of MH 17, the Ukrainian Security Service published a recording of alleged pro-Russian military
officers led by commander Bes, who is based in Gorlovka (Horlivka), allegedly confirming that they shot
down the Malaysian Boeing 777.’

Read more: Another false flag? MH 17 likely downed by a SU fighter jet about 20 miles south east of Gorlovka
http://vladimirsuchan.blogspot.ca/20...ly-downed.html

Somehow that doesn't resonate with me that the SU-25s would shoot any aircraft out of the sky like that, it just doesn't add up. Why redirect an innocent airliner into a region and altitude to be shot down by your own planes and risk the global backlash of opinion when the desire is to blame Russia?

What has been said here by Avalonians in this thread does support bombs on the plane placed there prior to the Malaysian airliner departing Schiphol airport in Holland. By having bombs on board to be remotely triggered requires only on the "red herring" of having the Buks and SU-25s conjoin over the region to infer the missile was responsible for the explosion impacting the aircraft. I suspect the Buk radar soldier targetted the SU-25(s) and not the airliner so witnesses would confirm the missile had been launched and the blame would be confined to that story.

What I couldn't understand was why the SU-25(s) had deployed anti missile measures if IT hadn't been targeted. I believe three quite separate events took place:
(a) the planted bombs, in the control of a "higher authority" were detonated at a point of THEIR choosing, a responsibility not entrusted to military "grunts" in the field of operations.
(b) the redirection and altitude change directed by Kiev airport needed to occur soon enough to ensure an "alarm" status existed to launch the SU-25s and for interception with the airliner.
(c) with all three aircraft (airliner and two fighters) in the fire zone the Buk operator would be "tasked" to fire on the SU-25s (one missile or two?) which they easily avoided and destroying the missile(s) leaving just the bomb(s) detonation to be remotely activated by satellite, comms, etc.

This 3 step process delivers plausible deniability at every stage and minimises (on a paper plan) the influence of error.

So this second aircraft now being shot down is just creating a smoke screen to enforce the first shooting, with MSM squealing "they did it again". When in actual fact, this is just part of the cover-up process which will now drag on with other innocents losing their lives.

A similar thing happened in Hungary, Budapest when four Israelis were blown up in a taxi journey. When the world quizzed the Israeli government, who denied any responsibility, low and behold, a couple of weeks later a visiting tour of innocent Israeli civilians was also blown up. Israel denied that also but it was enough to quell criticism of the State and the world moved on.

[Humble Janitor]

How could it be the same plane?

Wasn't the other plane an inside job (pilot in on hijacking)?

[Cidersomerset]

I might be getting my SU's in a muddle , the SU 25 is a ground
attack aircraft as you point out and the SU 27 is an all weather
fighter. There seems to be various variations, both have cannon.

So could of the SU-27 fired its cannon ?


The Su-27 is armed with a single 30 mm Gryazev-Shipunov
GSh-30-1 cannon in the starboard wingroot, and has up to 10
hardpoints for missiles and other weapons. Its standard missile
armament for air-to-air combat is a mixture of Vympel R-73
(AA-11 Archer), Vympel R-27 (AA-10 'Alamo') weapons, the
latter including extended range and IR guided models








http://www.aviastar.org/russian-aircraft/flanker/




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...09/Su-25Ub.JPG

The cannon is located in a compartment beneath the cockpit, mounted on a
load-bearing beam attached to the cockpit floor and the forward fuselage support
structure. The nose is fitted with distinctive twin pitot probes and hinges up
for service access.[8]

UkraineUkrainian Air Force. Ukraine obtained 92 Su-25s of differing variants following
the country's independence in the wake of the break-up of the USSR. Currently, the
Ukrainian Air Force operates approximately 60 Su-25, Su-25UBs, and Su-25UTGs,
which are operated by the 299th Independent Assault Regiment (299 OShAP) based
at Kulbakino, Mykolaiv Oblast, and at Saki in the Crimea, and the 456th Assault
Regiment (456 ShAP) at Chortkiv. Up to 30 Su-25s are reportedly stored at the
4070th Reserve Base. Evidently, three Su-25s sold to Macedonia came from this
reserve pool.[29] Also, Ukrainian Air Force modernized two types of the Su-25,
one of them is Su-25M1 and Su-25UBM1.[76

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is confusing because the interpreter and summery talk about an SU25 , though
the title says SU 27.........Or have we discussed this earlier, my brains a bit frazzled
after posting a lot this morning ..LOL



7/17/14 17:17 Two Böeing 777, Ukrainian Su-27s fighter jets, NASA satellites and ISS flying over

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=cukgYU6Lry4

Published on 21 Jul 2014


Malaysian Twin Böeing Mystery -- on 7/17 at 17:17 Soviet military (ISS) detected
both MH17 and MH370 (LOST on 3/7 at 17:17) over Donetsk en route Rostov-on-
Don trying to overfly Russia's newest K-300P Bastion-P coastal defence missile
system - The Red Army generals claim MH17 was a copycat of 1983 KAL007
provocation - The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining
height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. At the moment of
the MH17 crash an American satellite (Norwegian AWACS from Ørland) was flying
over the area of eastern Ukraine. Kiev must explain why the military jet was
tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said.
http://youtu.be/TTJL829VUV8

[Snoweagle]

Posted by Operator (here)
"Wars and rumors of wars ... "

See also my post here about war with socialistic Venezuela.

So if I understand correctly there was a workable peaceful way of investigating the crash site,
now Ukraine decided to conquer that site in the middle of the investigation, the US (west) will
start building tension in Poland and Putin is to blame for a rising chance of war in that area ?

Sometimes I wonder why I chose to reincarnate in this world full of stupidity ... Yeah, I know
to restore the balance with some sanity. But this is so ridiculous that I wonder if it works.
When I talk with family and friends (some of them in the NL) it seems the demonizing has
already done its work ... they simply don't seem to get it.

Or are they trying to let us like Putin so much that we are driven in his hands to take over
the world (Perestroika deception)?

It is rather like taking part in "your own death" dance, you can see it coming and you just have to wait your turn to take part. Are you holding a strong enough hand?

When my children were younger I used to tell them when the subject of warfare came up the world is going to be beautiful place for them and soon we wouldn't need armies.
How naive I was. How I and everybody else fell for this future.

And Operator, we're in this together whether we like it or not. All we can do is do our best for one another. The Freemasonic Cabal will rot in hell.

[ktlight]

That was what was said about it, but, since then, there is a plethora of info to be examined.

[Humble Janitor]

A summary of the video would be appreciated though. I should have stated that.

[Sunny-side-up]

Humble Janitor

Default Re: Was The Malaysian Plane In Ukraine The Same One as In March - Joaquin
How could it be the same plane?

Wasn't the other plane an inside job (pilot in on hijacking)?

ktlight

That was what was said about it, but, since then, there is a plethora of info to be examined.

Inside job, killing of certain passengers of merit, etc, etc

Who owns what, who benefits, Kill the first passengers off, plan saved for another bay to kill off more passengers that are doing worth to humanity.

We are all pawns to them, the airline is a pawn, who owns what these days. The thing is we aren't supposed to be awake enough to see their evil doings. We have seen things done by them that are beyond the belief of the sheeple, we know they are able and willing to do anything they desire, we are just cannon fodder, pawns!

If there is the slightest coincidence or query of an event well! Nothing is a mistake or accident in my mind any more

[Operator]

Posted by Snoweagle (here)
Somehow that doesn't resonate with me that the SU-25s would shoot any aircraft out of the sky like that, it just doesn't add up. Why redirect an innocent airliner into a region and altitude to be shot down by your own planes and risk the global backlash of opinion when the desire is to blame Russia?

What has been said here by Avalonians in this thread does support bombs on the plane placed there prior to the Malaysian airliner departing Schiphol airport in Holland. By having bombs on board to be remotely triggered requires only on the "red herring" of having the Buks and SU-25s conjoin over the region to infer the missile was responsible for the explosion impacting the aircraft. I suspect the Buk radar soldier targetted the SU-25(s) and not the airliner so witnesses would confirm the missile had been launched and the blame would be confined to that story.

What I couldn't understand was why the SU-25(s) had deployed anti missile measures if IT hadn't been targeted. I believe three quite separate events took place:
(a) the planted bombs, in the control of a "higher authority" were detonated at a point of THEIR choosing, a responsibility not entrusted to military "grunts" in the field of operations.
(b) the redirection and altitude change directed by Kiev airport needed to occur soon enough to ensure an "alarm" status existed to launch the SU-25s and for interception with the airliner.
(c) with all three aircraft (airliner and two fighters) in the fire zone the Buk operator would be "tasked" to fire on the SU-25s (one missile or two?) which they easily avoided and destroying the missile(s) leaving just the bomb(s) detonation to be remotely activated by satellite, comms, etc.

This 3 step process delivers plausible deniability at every stage and minimises (on a paper plan) the influence of error.

So this second aircraft now being shot down is just creating a smoke screen to enforce the first shooting, with MSM squealing "they did it again". When in actual fact, this is just part of the cover-up process which will now drag on with other innocents losing their lives.

A similar thing happened in Hungary, Budapest when four Israelis were blown to blown up in a taxi journey. When the world quizzed the Israeli government, who denied any responsibility, low and behold a couple of weeks later a visiting tour of innocent civilians was also blown up. Israel denied that also but it was enough to quell criticism of the State and the world moved on.

Thanks for your analysis ...
But keep in mind that none of the three separate elements have been proven yet.
Maybe the BUK accusations were only made up to blame the 'other' party, there are no eyewitnesses
or other media that support a launch of ground-to-air missile launch.
And your scenario also works even without a SU-25 shooting the airliner down.

If there was a bomb on board they have full control. If the plan fails you can decide not to let the
bomb explode and try another time. You then deliberately reroute a plane into the war zone and
wait to see if they respond. In this case they responded with 2 SU-25 that were said (proof?) to
bank away a couple of minutes before MH17 vanished from the radar. For now I Interpret that as
they inspected the plane and returned to base. But I could easily be wrong of course.
And although also images support the 'bomb on board' theory we need hard evidence for that.
So far they prematurely concluded from the black-box data that the plane depressurized in mid-air
so it was hit by a missile but that's of course not necessarily true.

The fact that each party with full confidence accused the other one based on speculations means
they were sure of one thing: "They didn't do it, so it must be the other one".
That's where a third party comes in ... The third party doesn't mind who will be blamed as long
as all fingers point to a patsy. Again, I could be wrong of course but I am also doubtful that the
opportunity will be there to detect the truth with hard facts.

[Hervé]

Don't you guys keep up-to-date of what's happening on your own forum?

See: Photos suggest crashed Malaysian jet was MH-370


Edit:

The above was my comment in another that started with this:

Posted by ktlight (here)

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=o6aiKtQ6hZ8

"Published on Jul 29, 2014
Images of plane from:
http://www.maxresistance.com/breaking..."

This is an interesting point of view.

... and which has little to nothing to do with this main thread.

[Snoweagle]

Posted by Humble Janitor (here)
A summary of the video would be appreciated though. I should have stated that.

We would love a summary too, here's the link to the discussions:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...ot-down/page25

[Cidersomerset]

John Kerry is blaming President Putin for supporting the rebels, and the
continuation of all the fighting. Its their fault that the crash investigation site is to
dangerous for the investigators, and its the rebels fault that the Ukrainian forces
are attacking them and killing hundreds and wounding thousands of civilians. The
US will give more money to help prop up Kiev and we will find more excuses for
more sanctions against Russia, If they do not stop supporting the rebels....Blah Blah


The two BBC reports below show 'CLEARLY MR.KERRY ' it the advancing
Ukrainian army shelling the crash site area that is stopping the investigators
not the rebels. Even though Kiev promised not to.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------





Kerry, Ukraine FM on MH17 crash, Russia sanctions (recorded live feed)

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=7FTwlZ9QlNc

MH17 crash: Kerry warns of more Russia sanctions40 minutes ago

US Secretary of State John Kerry has warned of further sanctions against Russia unless
it puts pressure on pro-Russian separatists near the MH17 crash site in Ukraine.

Mr Kerry said the rebels had displayed an "appalling disregard for human decency", with
heavy fighting preventing some bodies being retrieved from the site 12 days after the disaster.

Speaking at a joint news briefing with Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin in Washington,
he said Russia had failed to show "a shred of evidence" that it wished to end the bloodshed
in Ukraine, and warned of further sanctions.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------





Fighting intensifies near MH17 crash site8 hours ago

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Rq8R7tqL3qk

Fresh fighting, close to where the Malaysia Airlines jet went
down in Ukraine, has prevented international monitors from
accessing the crash site.

It comes as security officials in Ukraine say the plane suffered
an explosive loss of pressure after it was punctured by shrapnel from a missile.

Tom Burridge reports from eastern Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28524749


-------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=XTAvqrUbg6A

Reports of heavy fighting in eastern Ukraine27 July 2014 Last updated at 22:38 BST

There are reports of heavy fighting in eastern Ukraine, close to the site
where Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crashed.

Government forces are trying to regain control of the the area from
pro-Russian separatists.

It means a team of Dutch and Australian police officers have been
forced to postpone a visit to the crash site.

Tom Burridge reports from Kharkiv.

[Operator]

So I suppose that Kerry assumes responsibility for the death toll in Syria because they arm
the rebels there and for the Palestinian victims because the US supports arming Israel ?

How naive can one be?

[Cidersomerset]

So I suppose that Kerry assumes responsibility for the death toll in Syria because they arm
the rebels there and for the Palestinian victims because they support arming Israel ?

How naive can one be?

95% American-made: Where do Israel's bombs & bullets come from

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=7IqNXDr2o1o

Published on 27 Jul 2014


Many weapons used by Israel come from the US, a major
supplier to the IDF. RT's Marina Portnaya reports.

RT LIVE http://rt.com/on-air


===================================================
===================================================


This is also a massive distraction while Israel is committing a mini holocaust on the
civilians in Gaza....


Israel Creates ‘No Man’s Land’ in Gaza, Shrinking Strip by 40 Percent

new Tuesday 29th July 2014 at 16:20 By david-icke





‘This narrow strip of land that used to be called “the Gaza Strip,” already one of the more densely
populated places on Earth, is growing dramatically smaller. The Israeli military, relentlessly and
methodically, is driving people out of the 3-kilometer (1.8 mile) buffer zone it says it needs to
protect against Hamas rockets and tunnels. According to the United Nations Office for the
Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, the buffer zone eats up about 44 percent of Gaza’s territory.

What that means on the ground is scenes of extraordinary devastation in places like the
Al Shajaya district approaching Gaza’s eastern frontier, and Beit Hanoun in the north. These
were crowded neighborhoods less than three weeks ago. Now they have been literally
depopulated, the residents joining more than 160,000 internally displaced people in refuges
and makeshift shelters. Apartment blocks are fields of rubble, and as I move through this
hostile landscape the phrase that keeps ringing in my head is “scorched earth.”’




Read more: Israel Creates ‘No Man’s Land’ in Gaza, Shrinking Strip by 40 Percent


http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-per-cent.html

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/