The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

[annacherie]

Hello Highwhistler ,

Can you please tell me why the butterfly in this image is located on the 5th chakra?- AC
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[Highwhistler]

Posted by annacherie (here)
Hello Highwhistler ,

Can you please tell me why the butterfly in this image is located on the 5th chakra?- AC

Posted by annacherie (here)

For no reason what so ever.

I know nothing about chakras ... I've not studied them, I've not read articles about them, I've not paid attention to any teachers, gurus, healers who go on, and on, about the great and holy significance of chakras.

Decades ago, I truly left all the common, popular, spiritual stuff behind: All the teachings about so-called spiritually-significant things, centers of energy, ways to meditate, all spiritual-materialism, everything -- I kicked it all out of my life -- decades ago. But, I did fall in love with the Silence of the Universe, and in that love a unique path unfolded that allowed me to merge with, and become Silent.

And so I've been free and unattached from the status-quo spiritual concepts, groups, books, workshops, and beliefs as well. But I'll gladly talk about those things with friends who request my points of view.

When creating this visionary art image, all I did was follow my authtentic love for gardens, for children, for natural ecosystems, insects -- like butterflies, and orbs (that I've personally witnessed repeatedly) ... I put them all together in a state of love, creativity, wonder and kindness ... which I hope is reflected in this image.

Of course ... everyone is welcome to come to their own ideas and feelings about what my artwork means, and how it relates to them.

Thank you My Friend!

In peace & with blessings,

Highwistler

PS: One possible interpretation of the location of the butterfly, that some may make, is that it symbolizes the 5th chakra opening its wings and taking flight in all its colorful glory (the butterfly) ... and of course you can see that the child is calm, loving and caressed by a vibrant, quiet, peaceful and magical garden. It might be her own secret garden (with no bossy adults around) where she is free to enjoy and interact with life in her own intimate, heart-felt, innocent and original ways.

[annacherie]

I truly respect taking an eclectic perspective. I resonated to this because lately feel as though I have been asked to deepen my relationship to silence (thus the butterfly covering the mouth) and have found transformation in doing so yet paradoxically also through expressing myself!

Guess I just answered my own question thankyou!
with kind regards
Anna

[animovado]

Somehow Highwhistlers post reminded me on something Ken Wilber wrote. If you like to read it, here is the site with some instructions to read the words.
For german speaking folks it's here.

And thank you TH for the descriptions of your personal live, including some of your astrological aspects. It helps to get a better picture, to sense a little more of your being. And an aspect of mine.

[TraineeHuman]

Thank you, animovado. Ken Wilber writes beautifully about who/what we all truly are .

I'm not denying that what he says is the truth. The trouble is, though, that our civilisation teaches us to live in lies. No doubt Ken Wilber and Teka and (I assume) you and I have learnt to live in the truth. And yes, it's beautiful. But the ordinary person, and even the spiritual "seeker", needs to slowly learn to observe and shed the cocoon of layer after layer of lies and denial they got hypnotised into living in and our parents called that growing up and becoming a person. To do this, they have to learn the art of knowing themselves, watching themselves. How do you quickly unravel a whole lifetime of brainwashing in falseness, and even of self-brainwashing that's gone on every minute? You don't do it quickly. The reason I've been emphasizing the importance of radical honesty with oneself about oneself, and intensively learning to know oneself and watch oneself without judging, is because I would like others to get to that beautiful space that Teka and I and presumably Ken and you are basking in. And to be able to have relationships with others and earn money and still not lose that connection, still not betray one iota of our being to the pit of dishonesty.

[TraineeHuman]

No doubt a major reason why people are interested in astral/mental projection or meditation (or being with Nature) is to somehow experience a fuller or higher way of being. My early experience was that astral projection was mostly very pleasurable for the first year or two because it was fun to experience being free of gravity, and to fly at great speeds -- almost instantly -- to wherever or whomever I wished.

Then I found that mental projection was more satisfying, but not so much like speed car racing. It was quieter and subtler. But I could look at or play out most of the emotional "movies" or the emotional games going on not only within myself but in others around me. Once I had played them out fully -- which in a few cases took quite a few years or even decades -- it was like I'd been released from imprisonment in those games. I guess that imprisonment had been rather like the way people find themselves with responsibilities to do with their family or their employment.

Beyond the mental projection level there was another layer of projection. This sometimes seemed to me to clearly involve travel through time -- or, to be more accurate, through time-space which is also space-time. I never learnt to control this. No doubt it would take years of (pleasurable?) practice to master it. Whenever I did it, I did see "landscapes" or repetitive structures, of one kind or another, that were always very much dominated by a bright orange color that also had a slight brownish tinge. I already knew this energy and that color. That's the aura of Gaia, in the form of the planetary consciousness. What I apparently found was that to time-travel you need to go through Gaia, and be taken not to the sun but to the galactic center. And there almost into formlessness.

The "time-travel" was rather weird because one could use it to travel anywhere through time-space. One could then "step down" and maybe startle some poor unsuspecting person at the time and location where one happened to step down off the bus -- presumably looking like some kind of ghost or ET to them? This maybe fits in with what physicists say about "folding" space-time as how one can travel at a speed faster than light. But as I say, I never learnt to control it -- just to "travel" in the most weird way, that felt like traveling through existence itself. This level, again, was and remains more satisfying to me than the ones below.

Above this there is a level which, again, is more satisfying than those below, but even less like teenage infatuation and even more like mature accepting love. This is a level of formlessness -- like pure "energy" in some quite non-physical sense of energy. Can you imagine -- or, rather, as Ken Wilber says, be -- "no shape", "no (defined) object" at all? The best exercise I know for learning to initially access this level is the exercise of feeling the aliveness, which I described initially in post #114. (This exercise is based on two of J. Krishnamurti's many lectures. In the early 1980s the late Barry Long had the insight to see that it wasn't just a way of seeing things but it could be turned into an extraordinary exercise -- for those who are ready!)

At this level of OB/meditation experience (well, in the third level up within this), I can vouch it's possible to quickly shed many of the judgments about yourself that you unknowingly hold. There are no polarities/dualities there, and therefore no judgments -- or, at least, judgments turn into mere fictions, or empty shells there. It's no exaggeration to say that these control most of your perceptions of "how life treats you" and so on. It's also no exaggeration at all to say that those judgments are precisely what keeps you trapped in the wheel of compulsory reincarnation into the physical.

Once you're in the formless levels or higher, you're drawing on the Void, which is Source, or pure Being, or full Presence. But there are still degrees to which you are able to do this -- or, rather, it "does" you (in a good sense). And you're only in true union with Source, with full Being, when "you" go beyond the subject/object distinction.

That beyond isn't as unfamiliar to us as we might like to believe. More like literally zillions of best friends, and plenty of laughs to overflowing, and freedom from any tears or suffering and all that. And endless possibilities.

At that point, as Teka says, you can happily forget about methods, traditions, teachers, and all the rest of it.

Some famous child-psychology experiments have proved that up until the age of eight months or so, most children see themselves as being the entire Universe, as pure Being. Or, to reproduce Ken Wilber's delightful description that animovado kindly directed us to in her recent post, how they see themselves is like this (except that they haven't learnt to conceptualize it as yet):

Ken Wilber • From You to Infinity in 3 Pages

What I am going to do in the following is simply "describe" the nondual Self right now as it is immediately seen.  The following is stream of consciousness, so forgive any goofs.  Simply relax your mind and read the following easily (if a sentence immediately makes sense, fine, if not, just keep lightly reading): 
What you have been seeking is literally and exactly That which is reading this page right now.  That Self cannot be found because it was never lost: you have always known you were you.  That I AMness is a constant condition of all that arises, is the space in which it all arises, has nothing outside of it and thus is complete Peace, and radiates its own beauty in all directions.  John arises in the space of that I AMness, John arises in this vast spaciousness, this pure openness.  John is an object, just like a tree or a cloud that arises in the space of the Self that you are.  I am not talking to John right now, I am talking to you.  That which is aware of John is this ever-present Self.  This Self is aware of John arising right now.  This Self is God.  God is reading this page.  John is not reading this page, God is reading this page.  The Self is aware of John and aware of this page.  You are not John.  You are what is aware of John.  What is aware of John is an I AMness that itself cannot be seen but only felt, felt as an absolute certainty, unshakeable is-ness, I AM that I AM eternally, timelessly, unendingly.  There is only this I AMness in all directions.  Everything arises spontaneously in the space of this great perfection that is the Self, which is reading this page right now. 
And you, John, are that Self.  You have always known that you are this Self.  There was never a time that you did not know that you are you.  You can never remember a time when you were not you.  The only thing you can ever remember is something that this Self did.  There is only this Self.  You cannot reach out for it because it is that which is doing the reaching.  You cannot see it because it is doing the seeing right now, which means, everything simply arises in its awareness: the entire world arises in your awareness right now.  You are that space in which it is all spontaneously and effortlessly arising.  You are that One.  You have always been that One.  There is only that One.  Do not pretend you are finding that One.  Do not pretend you have forgotten that One.  The only thing you have ever known, the only thing you can ever remember, the only thing you are actually feeling right now is that One: the is-ness, now-ness, suchness of everything, just as it is, and as it is arising within your Self—the simple feeling of Being, which is all you ever feel always.
 
Look at the clouds: they are arising in your awareness: they are arising in you.  The clouds are outside of John but inside of your Self.  Look at your body and this room.  Your body is in this room, but both the body and the room arise IN your awareness.  You are literally holding them in your consciousness lovingly.  The mountains are arising in your awareness: they are arising in you, and you are lovingly holding the mountains within your consciousness, holding the arising world within your embrace as the dearly radiant beloved.  The mountains are arising outside of John but inside of your Self.  The clouds, the mountains, and John are all simultaneously and effortlessly arising in this Self, the reader of this page.  All that is arising is arising in this unshakeable I AMness, which is not a thing or an object or a person, but the openness or clearing in which all things and all objects and all persons are arising. This emptiness, this openness, this vast spaciousness is your Self, is what you have always been, is what you are before your parents were born, is what you are before the Big Bang happened.  Before Abraham was, I AM.  There is no before and no after for this now-ness that is the Self.  There is only this now-ness of the Self that is reading this page in this very moment.  There is no past and no future in this never-ending now.  All befores and all afters arise in this awareness.  There is only this ever-present, never-starting, never-ending, unborn, undying, radiant beauty that is aware of this page, that is aware of this universe, and that finds all of them IN the space that it is, and therefore all things arise in the unshakeable Peace that holds them all easily in its caring within.  John is in the universe; the universe is in your Self. 
Therefore, be this ever-present Self who is reading this page.  I am not talking to John, I am talking to you.  Let John arise and fall like all objects. Let John come into being, remain a bit, and pass: what has this to do with your Self?  All objects arise, remain, and pass in the spaciousness and emptiness that is aware of this moment, and this moment, and this moment, and this moment.  Yet this moment has no end, you have never actually felt the present come to an end because it never does: it is the only thing that is real: this now-ness, this simple feeling of being, the very same feeling-awareness in which this page floats, and in which John floats, and in which the clouds float.  When you feel this present now-ness, there is nothing outside of it—you cannot see on the outside of this timeless now because there is nothing outside of it.  Now and now and now is all you ever know, and this now-ness is simply another name for the spacious Self in which the entire kosmos arises as a radiant, joyful, ecstatic swoon of bliss and a desire to share this infinite Joy with somebody else. 
Because this page and the mountains and the clouds all arise in your awareness, there is nothing outside your Self.  That there is literally nothing outside your Self means there is literally nothing that can threaten it.  Since you know this Self, you know Peace.  Because you are already, directly, immediately, and intimately one and identical with That which is reading this page right now, you know God right now, directly and immediately and unmistakably and undeniably.  And because you know God right now, as the very Self reading this page, you know you are finally, truly, deeply home, a home that you have always directly known and always pretended you didn't.
Therefore, pretend no more.  Confess that you are God.  Confess that you are Beauty.  Confess that you are the very Truth the sages have sought for centuries.  Confess that you are Peace beyond understanding.  Confess that you are so ecstatically happy that you had to manifest this entire world just to bear witness to a radiant beauty you could no longer contain only in and for yourself.  Confess that the Witness of this page, the Self of this and all the worlds, is the one and only true Spirit that looks through all eyes and hears with all ears and reaches out in love and compassion to embrace the very beings that it created itself in an eternal ecstatic dance that is the secret of all secrets.  And confess that you are Alone, that you are literally the only One in the entire universe: there are no others to this One.  There are indeed others to John, but both John and the others arise in the awareness that is reading this page, and this awareness, this Self, has no other because all others arise in it.  One without a second is what is reading this page. 
Therefore, be that One.  And also give my love to John.     
Ken
 
p.s.  Do you realize, deeply, deeply, deeply, that the one who is reading this page is the one who wrote it, yes?  John, and Ken, and this page, all arise in the Witness of this page, yes?  The Self is not hard to find, but impossible to escape.  So drop all this fuss about finding and losing, and simply be the One in whom all worlds are now arising.  So go outside and look at the beautiful world arising within your very own feeling-awareness, arising within your very own Being, and then, you know, go have a beer or something....

The truth is, they lose that consciousness of pure Being and total Oneness, but until early adolescence most remain very honest about whatever they're directly feeling at each moment. After that, "civilization". But Nature, of course, has scant respect for human "civilization". So if you go to a place where Nature hasn't been completely interfered with, you'll feel at least something of the essence of pure Being there too.

[TraineeHuman]

"The infinite" is something that's ever so greatly misunderstood. Mystics from pretty much every culture and time period have experienced it directly, and often -- particularly if it was safe to do so in their time and culture -- have tried to tell others of it. But to anyone who hasn't had the direct experience, the words convey only the concept -- which falls very far short of the All!


And don't forget that the All also includes the unknowable -- and certain mystics most certainly experience even that also, somehow. Or, at least, they certainly experience the fact of unknowability and the fact of how it's so much vaster than what's knowable -- and somehow they experience all this integrated into one whole with everything else.


Infinity doesn't live by the "rules" of knowability or expressibility. Let's suppose you allow that there is such a thing as infinity (or, indeed, many infinities). Then it's easy to jump to the conclusion that its (at least partial) independence from, and in many ways superiority (at least in "size") to the knowable Multiverse, must be a rejection of the Multiverse. It's not a rejection, but it may certainly seem so. Imagine it sustaining the imperfect world but being inactive in it, without a hint of duality within itself. Imagine something being more real than the Multiverse.


Then it may well seem like Silence, like Stillness, in comparison.


Here we have the dilemma of those who have been "blinded by the sun", as I have also been, and at a youngish age. It's like the dilemma of Plato's Cave, or of Flatland (which is a mathematical story about a world which has length and breadth but no depth, and where no-one wants to accept it's possible that such a thing as depth, and a superior reality, could exist).

[TraineeHuman]

One way to begin to describe how the Infinite (or Source) is different from the highly conditioned, highly limited version of so-called reality we're taught by our society, is through some simple examples of a mathematical kind. I guess the most basic idea we have about infinity is that it has no beginning and no end. Like a straight line that goes on forever:

____________________________________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________

(Well, I don't know how to get the web software to get rid of the gaps in this line, but you know what I mean anyway.)

Imagine the line above actually does keep going on forever, beyond the page at both ends.

Actually, there's the microscopic infinite as well. (There's also the qualitative infinite, but for now let's stay with the quantitative infinte.) By the microscopic infinite, I simply mean there's an infinite number of points between any two points on the above line, any two points you like. There are many infinities.

Anything that has a beginning (which that line extending forever on both sides doesn't have, horizontally speaking) involves an action/movement/force/cause -- whichever of those you like, and in fact all of them. That's a foundational feature in all the finite "worlds" (they're not really worlds because they're all contained within infinities).

One way that an infinite world often differs from a finite "world" is that forces and actions are far, far less of a big deal there. That's because they get swallowed up by and in something more total, more connected -- a much, much bigger picture. People ask why Source allows evil and disaster to exist. But they don't realize that Source impartially sees many bigger pictures of what's going on than what they see, and Source is primarily interested in Truth and in making them stronger, over the course of eternity.

Let's look at that line again, with some labels added for some points on that line:

__________Z______A_______________B___________C_____________________________________________________________________

Because the line is infinitely long, the section from, say, A to B is an infinitely small slice. Ditto the sections Z to A and B to C. If we think of the section from A to B as a "force" beginning at A, that's really just a continuation of a different force, the one from Z to A. And that's a continuation of ..., and so on to infinity. I hope this casts light on how, from the infinite point of view, in one sense forces or actions don't even exist. Because they've all been swallowed up into something bigger.

How do we describe that "something bigger"? Well, that would take a lot more explaining. Of course, it's what mystics (and I) have directly experienced, and continue to experience. Call it (full) Presence, Oneness, the Void, and so on.

People like to assume that the mathematical infinite isn't and can't be real. For instance, we can grow a certain number of oranges on the planet, but of course that will be a finite number. It may perhaps be determinate, and dependent on a variety of circumstances, but still it would most certainly be finite. That's true at a physical level. But at an only slightly higher level, that of concepts, the simple concept of "(keep) add(ing) one more" already implies the existence of infinitely more -- conceived oranges, or whatever else you like to have a concept of.

In this way, in the conceptual level of reality the concept of infinitely many (oranges, or anything else) is already implicitly there, underlying everything. Which is a little like how the Infinite is the source and ground of everything that's finite or limited. It's a bit like that straight line that goes on infinitely at either end exists first, and only then can there be finite segments of it, such as between A and B above.

Why is this significant? Because freedom from unhappiness happens to be the same thing as having an underlying very strong sense or feeling or knowing within you that you are indeed infinite. It's as simple as that.

[chocolate]

TH, in a way your last post sheds light on the concept why it is important for the single person to accept (at first), and experience (later on) OBEs or astral projection. We -- most of us -- have lived, and still live, in a reality in which we are bound by the quality of our own mind/logic-bound perception. I sometimes wonder if people really believe that 3000 years ago our minds and bodies were working exactly in the same way as they work today? What if we were to assume our mind perception which shapes our view to the world can be set to have different 'parameters of perception'? Then we will be experiencing everything tainted or tinted by those specific parameters, and we possibly will be thinking of what is finite and infinite differently.

When I was a kid I liked looking at the ants while they were crawling on the ground. There came the moment when my dad told me that their life is shorter than the human life, but for them doesn't seem as such, because time works or flows differently from their perspective.

I simply explain it to myself that everything depends on the scale and the point of view, and on the perception parameters. In that sense for me everything is possible, and I also can sense infinity based on the comparison with my finite size and my finite life. Life flows from my perspective in one way, but the same life shared with an ant flows differently for the ant.
( Sorry for the example, don't mean to compare apples with oranges, but it seemed as a good exaggeration to illustrate my POV. )

Now, we have lived 'finite', brain-logic-based for so long that perhaps we have reach the point of completing that stage and moving onto the next one. I was led to believe now has come the time to start accepting another possibility -- the possibility of a bit higher perspective, one that is more close to the infinite, source, the unconditional world of ' love', etc. The world of 'seeing' life through a more expanded consciousness, through extra sensory perception, or what you may also call it through astral projection and OBEs. In that way, keeping what we already have and know - seeing the world through the external senses, we could integrate the hard evidence of science with the soft evidence of internal sensing, and that would shape our new perception of reality.

If I haven't managed to express what I wanted I can recommend few videos done based on Rudolf Steiner's work. They helped me realize what was inside of me, but couldn't be formulated prior to watching those videos.
If anyone is interested I can point to those videos, but for now don't want to derail the train of thought here.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by chocolate (here)
I can recommend few videos done based on Rudolf Steiner's work. They helped me realize what was inside of me, but couldn't be formulated prior to watching those videos.
If anyone is interested I can point to those videos, but for now don't want to derail the train of thought here.

I haven't read any of Steiner's writings, but if the videos you mention are helpful in enabling people to develop their inner sensing or perception in some way, chocolate, then please don't feel inhibited at all about posting those videos. We appreciate that the realization of the Infinite may be a further stage on the inward journey into discovering what we really are, and of discovering that the entire finite worlds are just the products of the ordinary mind. And videos are more fun to watch. Also, if those videos helped you so much to understand your inner self, they may be equally helpful to someone else. I'm still blown away by how good the videos with Rupert Spira were that you recently posted in the Demystifying the Apple thread.

[annacherie]

Hello - Rudolph Steiners' book "Higher Worlds and their Attainment" was the first book I reached for when deciding to go cosmonauting-still haven't finished it for picking up Buhlmans' books but I trust Steiner for safe navigation and would be very interested in the videos chocolate . Visuals make material more accessible to me. Going to Demystifying the Apple thread now -thx TH!

[chocolate]

Hi, Annacherie and TraineeHuman.
Thank you for your kind words.

Here I am posting the first video from a 12-part series on the Egyptian mysteries.

Part 1 of 12:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=WXEltNQTB20

The whole playlist: http://youtu.be/WXEltNQTB20?list=PL81362E07CA27CB52

I will do a new thread with more of the videos I have discovered.

I hope you will enjoy the time spent with his words.
Chocolate

Edited: One probably needs to see most if not all of the 12 videos mentioned here, together with some from 'Inner Impulses of Evolution'.
Helpful also are 'Challenge of Rudolf Steiner" in 2 parts.
Basically, I have seen/heard everything I could find. This happened in the span of several days -- the most uplifting several days during my stay out of the forum.

[TraineeHuman]

I've played the 12 videos, chocolate, and found it a pleasant and stimulating experience throughout. It's been that for me primarily because Steiner continually seeks to paint the biggest, broadest picture of human pre-history and history -- incorporating everything that was going on at a supra-physical level. Many of his insights are ingenious. His breadth of vision is quite often mind-blowing. We see in detail how a prophet can be more than any mere historian.

Then again, it seems very clear to me that some of his theories or explanations, however ingenious or insightful, are just his own guesses, and in some cases happen to be wrong. For instance (second video) some members of this Forum are well aware that there's undeniable evidence that the moon is two billion years older than the earth, its rocks are demonstrably two billion years older. And therefore, despite what Steiner claims, the logical conclusion is that it was towed here or otherwise flung into its current position -- rather than having been joined to the earth by the hip from birth, so to speak. Yes, it's true, for example, that the moon has denser energies than the earth while the sun has less dense energies than the earth. It doesn't take extraordinary psychic perception for a person to be able to notice that. But Steiner then weaves his own theory to explain in detail why that's so, and what sorts of beings are connected with those places, and I'm not the only one who considers Steiner's story to almost certainly be inaccurate.

My response to quite a few of the things he claims is "maybe". He may be right and he may be wrong, though what he says is often fascinating either way. For instance, in the first video he claims there'll be seven post-Atlantean ages of human life on this planet, and that we're currently in the fifth. He claims the first age was the culture of the Vedas (though my own clairvoyant research -- and direct memory of my own interactions all from a position essentially off-planet during that time -- reveals quite clearly to me that humans have been on the planet for about a million and a quarter years, though they looked more like the sasquatch/yowie in the past, but Steiner is right to say that everyone used to have and see a huge, glowing etheric body (golden in color, during the golden ages) but my memory says they went through some cycles of golden ages and other ages, rather than being in a golden age all the time right up to and including the Atlantean age, as I think Steiner apparently believed).

He claims his seventh age will be a kind of higher reprise of the Vedic culture, with certain differences. Well, partly from reading between the lines of the Vedas it seems indubitably clear to me that the Vedic culture progressed from a culture relying on the discoveries of pure reason to something superior. This is the opposite direction of development to what Steiner claims -- which sure makes me wonder how carefully he read the Vedas. The "pure reason" culture would have been similar to modern science. The superior culture it progressed to was clearly one where they learned how to use the intuition (including clairvoyance) very, very accurately to gain and develop knowledge. Most of my posts in this thread have been aimed at coaxing or awakening at least the beginnings of such intuition, and of all that goes with it. I certainly believe (and would claim to know) that what will save humanity is not a second coming of Jesus, but intuition, and all that implies. I guess the transition into an age of accurate intuition (which doesn't abandon pure reason either) could conceivably be delayed by the presence of AI. So Steiner may have been right, if we'll need to wait for that or some other distractions to be overcome first.

Still, I've seen what I consider much overhyping of what AI is capable of. From my experiences with this thread, it seems clear to me that the big problem could be that the ego subtly but powerfully controls the ordinary mind and pure reason. And it does that in such a way as to use pure reason to totally deny and camouflage its own presence and influence over the perception of its bearer.

I almost hesitate to even comment about what Steiner says regarding the Gods. Partly because I don't want to overemphasize the negative points, the criticisms of Steiner, when I do find the videos delightful to watch. The other reason I'm hesitant is that I've read so much nonsense in the Forum regarding the Gods, from individuals who've no doubt never encountered or experienced them. For one thing, Steiner seems to fail to distinguish between the benevolent Gods and the demonic beings. The latter are presumably the same as the Archons. But Steiner seems quite ignorant that "Jahweh" is one of these, and also known as "Satan" or "Lucifer". Steiner says that in Atlantean times everyone could see the Gods. Well, I've sometimes seen and even conversed with some of the benevolent Gods. I've also slightly researched who the benevolent Gods are and where they reside. Because the guardian angels and others recognize me as a guardian angel of reasonably senior rank, on one occasion I was taken on a kind of tour, where it was shown and explained to me that the benevolent Gods are at the topmost "rung" of the guardian angel hierarchy. In other words, they are very, very senior guardian angels, though they don't work with individuals but rather with issues and energies affecting humanity as a whole -- at a supra-physical level. Plus, I was shown that the benevolent Gods have all undergone the enormous sacrifice of suffering many human incarnations and nevertheless prevailing to reach a state of great liberation. I take it Simon Parkes' information is generally accurate, and I take it he would want to classify each of these beings as Mantid or Reptoid or as from certain Humanoid "races" such as Lyran or Pleidean. But they are just beings. Surely, in OB planes from 6D on up we only experience beings as pure beings, and this "racism" may be relevant in the sense that different beings have had a history of living in the physical as part of one "race" or another. But the point is, the greatest benevolent Gods have lived extensively as earth humans, and been extraordinarily heroic in that they've done everything required to achieve true liberation while in physical form. They are very few in number, because that's so tough to do.

[chocolate]

Auch.
I actually don't take his words too literally, but mostly conceptually.
And as have been said to me, I suffer from a lack of spiritual education, which can be of real benefit sometimes.


What I personally liked about his research and vision, having in mind that I sensed I share his understanding of the nature of reality, is the attempt to give some partially logical partially intuitive explanation of the greater and deeper aspects of life, and not what our pure science and pure philosophy give us.
For example when we try to point to age of moon or Earth, I think our understanding is far, far off. I would be afraid to believe any actual age in terms of human years, tens or billions. But as I have said, I have a bit of a different understanding of how this whole thing works.

He has much more information shared, regarding Christ for example, and regarding the 'invisible' aspect of life to which we are not accustomed to, but probably you have having spent time in those realms.
One of the reasons I wanted to go OBE was exactly to find out how those worlds look like, if they can be called worlds, because they can be a version of our own (or of the one with the higher perspective) imagination/mind/thinking/perception.

As I have mentioned many times, I am not so much interested in what is of Earth or of non-Earth (ET) origin ( especially when Gods are concerned ) since it is all a matter of interpretation and understanding. In my view the whole concept will have to be reevaluated and put on some better and more concrete background. One day in the future far, far away. ;P

TH, I will not comment on RS here any longer, because I sensed this can turn into a discussion in the wrong place. So for now I will enjoy what I enjoy, and if I feel in the right state of mind I will start the new thread with more information on Rudolf Steiner. I haven't done this because of lack of time and energy, and also because I always end up having a different view on things, and having a discussion with myself I can do mentally instead of writing it down on the forum.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by chocolate (here)
I always end up having a different view on things, and having a discussion with myself I can do mentally instead of writing it down on the forum.

Yes, listen to and follow your intuition, your inner voice --since you can hear it so clearly --, because that's the voice of your soul, and it won't betray you.

[TraineeHuman]

Paradoxically, the Infinite lives independently of the world we commonly know. This is because it's so much "more", so much utterly different, has so much that's mostly or totally inexpressible in ordinary world terms.


And yet the ordinary, physical world we live in is completely dependent on the Infinite for its existence. The physical world has no option but to conform to the "as above, so below" principle: anything to do with the true essence of Truth, Love, understanding, Presence, and so on is in conformity with what comes from the Infinite.

On the other hand, it's certainly not always true that "as below, so above". It's certainly not the case that the physical world is a holographic fragment of the Infinite. The physical world is a hologram, at least in certain senses. But Infinity isn't a hologram. Infinity is the Source, the Projector that ultimately creates the holograms. It's free of everything else. It's pure freedom.


The big question to explore, then, is just what relationship does the ordinary world have to the Beyond? It's impossible for us to answer that question completely, but maybe that's why Source invented such a dense and limited world as the physical. In the physical, we get to explore the answer to the above question in a limited way, making it easier for us all to progress beyond that later.

And what a shock it is for the ordinary mind that first time we pass through the gates and into a space without flaw or duality whatsoever. How unreal we then suddenly see the world, the universe, that we thought we knew, really is by comparison! How mind-blowing to discover that all energies whatsoever just get born in and flow out of an Infinite well of utter Peace.

That Peace doesn't reject the limited world, either. No, it sustains it. It's only the ordinary, limited mind that wants to see everything in terms of opposites. Anything that's "other" to that mind must be rejecting it and therefore the version of reality that it sees -- well, that's what that mind can't help but believe.

This is why I've said that I consider the more important OB experience is of reality beyond time and space -- and even, I would add, beyond the opposites of finite and infinite! (Paradoxically, it still leaves you within the Infinite -- but also seeing and experiencing the finite. Voila. We're left with living the true spiritual life within this physical world.)

If I you'll excuse me for quoting myself in a previous post, let me add:

Any description of Source is always going to be partial, and therefore misleading. You have to have had at least some experience of being Source. Then you can say: “I see what you mean by that description. But, there’s more to Source than what your description covers.” Or as the famous Hindu saying goes: “It’s neither this, nor that.” In other words, it’s more a matter of what is left over once you’ve subtracted all the known. And you have to do that subtracting before you see that yes, there’s an awful lot left over.

I do of course appreciate, though, that many have simply not been "bitten by", or haven't unambiguously experienced/been Infinity. And that they therefore honestly need to assume that all this is potentially nonsense until confirmed to be otherwise in their own experience. When I was fourteen, one of the ways it became particularly clear to me that I must be experiencing the Infinite was when I did mantra meditation -- which is also the most common traditional way to go into astral projection. I usually kept my eyes open (or half-open) during any kind of meditation. When I repeated a mantra, I quickly found that it seemed like the physical environment around me was saying the mantra over and over rather than just me saying it in my mind. (This also happens if I do t'ai chi or qi gong.) What I also soon found was that the size of the physical area around me that seemed to be saying the mantra grew bigger and bigger, until it extended indefintely beyond the horizon. At that point I also found myself seeing things that must have been 4D or some higher D, because the 3D physical things then looked inexplicably hollow and transparent, and it was clear that other Forces were moving through tem at will. Not long after that, it seemed to me that the only logical conclusion was that I was in contact with "energies" that transcended the limits of the 3D world in such a way that there were no physical boundaries that could contain them. At least in that sense, it was very clear to me that these "energies" were infinite (unbounded) at least relative to the physical world.

[annacherie]

In the midst of listening to the RS videos (still pondering the first 4) I am struck by a couple of concepts that hopefully might introduce relevant discussion on this thread. The first being the idea suggested of "immaculate conception" or that which could possibly be formed from OBE sex? (1st video when he was interpreting the madonna painting and there implying physical birth of a child (albeit immaculately conceived)but the questioning arising around it suggested other possibilities-which begs the question what are those possibilities? For example, would this experience give rise to a Kundalini awakening or maybe conceiving of a seed form for future soul incarnation?

I was deeply touched by his discussion on how healing and teaching were conveyed directly through astral transmission. ...(hopelessly devoted student here ) This suggests grace could be given to another rather than having to be earned, which remains true today, yet seems our present state is one that leans very heavily towards initiation by fire so to speak. How does this concept apply to present day OBE possibilities?

THANK YOU chocolate for the rich material and Trainee Human for the intuitive assistance!

[animovado]

Paradoxically, the Infinite lives independently of the world we commonly know.

When the Infinite is independent of the world, how can it be that It is it's creator?
Is the Perfection capable of creating imperfection? This is truly a mystery and I'm prone
to the assumption that it's not possible. But what does that mean and what can we gain,
when we're following this line of thought further?

Maybe this would lead to the understanding that it is a very tough job to be Atlas,
because to uphold the world would mean to accomplish the impossible.
This would force him to his knees, sooner or later.
Thank God!

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by animovado (here)

Paradoxically, the Infinite lives independently of the world we commonly know.

When the Infinite is independent of the world, how can it be that It is it's creator?
Is the Perfection capable of creating imperfection? This is truly a mystery and I'm prone
to the assumption that it's not possible. But what does that mean and what can we gain,
when we're following this line of thought further?

Maybe this would lead to the understanding that it is a very tough job to be Atlas,
because to uphold the world would mean to accomplish the impossible.
This would force him to his knees, sooner or later.
Thank God!

Well, there are many things I could say in response to these questions -- and have already done in detail some time ago (around July 2013) in this thread when I was explaining how come it's OK, from Source's point of view, that evil is allowed to exist. But in addition to those, let me say Source doesn't "create", or, rather, facilitate the world in some kind of causal way, nor as some kind of movement as we normally think of movement -- as I thought I briefly explained in post #1728 above.

The finite worlds are largely self-creating. Source provides something like "tools" and support, but would not dare be some kind of cosmic Dictator. Source is much more experimental and informal even in what seem like crazy or random ways, and interested in unlocking the finite worlds' latent freedom, and facilitating their own discovery and development and their own maximization of such freedom.

Let me quote from one of my posts regarding Source and the problem of evil from July 2013:

... what “God” has “created for us” is basically good – though admittedly far from perfect.

My second argument starts from the fact – as far as I and many others are concerned on the basis of experience – that the only “(ultimate) God” is the universe (not only the physical universe, but all nonphysical dimensions). So, the truth is there never was such a thing as a God who “created this world”. And to blame “God” “personally” for “His creation” becomes nonsensical.

There is no “God” standing totally outside the universe. If there were such a being, that would be incredibly extraordinary and miraculous. How would such a being – so isolated from all – ever be able to communicate with the entire universe? But anyway, because God (i.e., Source) is the universe in its entirety, any suffering or evil inherent in the universe is self-inflicted by the universe. No-one is alone. Source feels every bit of suffering.

Thirdly, I suggest the whole distinction between “creator” and “creature” is a false one. Actually, we created and continue to create ourselves and our own lives. We just don’t know our own subconscious and superconscious strength. If we are in great suffering, it is we who ultimately put ourselves in it – maybe our Higher Mind did this, and so we don’t have a memory right now of choosing it. But choose it we most certainly did. Source didn’t choose it – except in so far as Source lives inside of us.

Since Source is the Whole, and since any organic whole is greater than the sum of all its parts, it follows that Source in itself is separate from, and "other than" any of its parts, and hence inevitably has an independence from them. Though as I said in the above quote, the independence is far from "total". Yes, you're right, animovado: there's no such thing as total independence. I agree, animovado, it's very paradoxical. Source is partly independent, particularly because it is Infinite, but also, and equally, it's partly entangled with the finite worlds too, and waiting for them to hopefully become infinite too.

(annacherie: great points in your last post too! I'll post a response tomorrow.)

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by annacherie (here)
In the midst of listening to the RS videos (still pondering the first 4) I am struck by a couple of concepts that hopefully might introduce relevant discussion on this thread. The first being the idea suggested of "immaculate conception" or that which could possibly be formed from OBE sex? (1st video when he was interpreting the madonna painting and there implying physical birth of a child (albeit immaculately conceived)but the questioning arising around it suggested other possibilities-which begs the question what are those possibilities? For example, would this experience give rise to a Kundalini awakening or maybe conceiving of a seed form for future soul incarnation?

annacherie, there are a whole number of partly interconnected topics implied here. Firstly, regarding "OB sex". This doesn't normally lead to "immaculate conception", which I'll talk about further below. But not long after I first began regular (conscious) astral travel as an adult, I was aware of someone of the opposite sex, also OB, offering to demonstrate to me that there was an astral equivalent of sex and it was no big deal. She then briefly showed me how it was a kind of temporary merging and I kind of electrical interchange and it was certainly very pleasant but not spectacular because it lacked strong sensuality. This is something everyone does each night with their friends of either sex etc but usually they don't remember doing that. It's fun and harmless, and it recharges you with energy, and seems to balance your energies a little.

On the other hand, as an adolescent or adult I had found that my sexual relationships with women naturally included an astral sensual component which I found was far more satisfying than the physical sensual side of lovemaking, and which would sometimes continue for a number of hours after physical lovemaking had ceased.

There is also a trap here, in that the lower levels of the astral are actually more intensely sensual places than the physical world is. The trap only exists if a person goes to one of those levels through fantasizing. In fact, my understanding is that it happens to be the case that the only way astral projection can ever be dangerous or harmful is when it involves any fantasizing -- which may be easier said than done, I guess. That includes sexual fantasizing. This is also closely connected to why I have gigantically huge concerns about the use of any kind of visualization or "affirmations" as a means to astral projection. I would have thought one would already need to be at a post-beginner type of level to be able to "visualize" in a way that involves no fantasizing. Also, the whole notion that "through astral projection or lucid dreaming you can create and experience any [so-called] 'reality' you like" is, unfortunately, dangerous for the same reason.

I used to have a spiritual teacher who firmly insisted one should never fantasize about sex. In fact, that one should normally not even think about sex unless one had an appropriate partner present. I believe that these days I understand why he said that. All fantasizing about sex is an activity of the ego (plus it can open up access for lower astral beings of an unpleasant and exploitative kind). The problem is, the ego knows that the closest thing it can experience to (integrated) bliss is intense pleasure. And that that can most easily be achieved by it through sexual fantasizing. The ego therefore fights tooth and nail to hang onto sexual fantasizing -- which, I believe, in itself is a degraded part of "sexuality", unless one is largely free of the ego, unfortunately.

Unless and until an individual is in regular touch with their Higher Mind / soul, the ego knows that the ego's intense pleasure is the closest the individual can come to experiencing bliss. In this way the ego exercises huge leverage over the individual, and this is its trump card (along with the card of exercising power in some way). The ego's strong investment in fantasizing (including about sex) needs to be (eventually) destroyed and replaced with something better, and that's a long process. It's a process of depriving the ego of the strongest card it's got. Otherwise the complete or more integral change can't occur within you. Then all you can get is a premature pulling down of the higher Forces. These may be too strong for the flawed and impure material of Nature. No doubt this is part of what Jesus means in the statement that you can't pour new wine into old bottles.

Now, let me move from the ego to the other end of the spectrum, and give some suggestions about what I understand this "immaculate conception" business is ultimately to do with. An individual who has fully realized the Infinite, which is the Divine, will be able, by themselves, to create a new physical body for themselves pretty much at will. I suspect they wouldn't even need to be gestated in and born from a womb, necessarily. Let me try to explain a little about how this would be.

Well, first, perhaps, I should point out that the transformation of our own being by the Higher Mind is a gradual process. The change needs to be worked out separately in each part of ourselves, in its own nature and character. Otherwise the change that comes from the descension of the soul / Higher Mind might not be accepted by our till then lower being, and it won't get integrated into us. It would seem partial and imposed to us, an imposition from outside, an intrusion, which we'll reject. Or else we may partially accept it but misuse the greater Forces that the HM brings as part of itself. I've already talked quite a lot in this thread about descension. But I feel it's appropriate -- well, ethically required, perhaps -- to preface my remarks about "immaculate conception" at least by saying the following. We need to call in the Higher power of the HM to transform us, because otherwise, as we are we'll never be liberated or fulfilled or happy. But we need to temporarily let go of such things as the ordinary mind and also our natural drives and urges. Quite a few spiritual people and groups get into extraordinary asceticism or strictness of lifestyle to achieve this. But really, it should ultimately be a temporary "asceticism", until the HM has truly descended (which can take years, though).

Yes, for instance, the ordinary mind is quite unable to realize whatever high ideals it may aspire to. It's far too lost in compromises, and deductions, and opposite extremes, in divisions, in a will that's always either divided or compulsively obsessed, and even just plain ineptness. What's genuinely logical is to put first things first -- to quote the late Barry Long. Whenever you're doing that, you're using the Higher Mind.

The powers of the Higher Mind, as they descend or begin to descend, undergo a kind of inheriting of the incapacity of the ordinary mind and of the person's natural drives and urges and life-force. They can't achieve their own full power because of the presence of such (relatively) shoddy material. The result is a much smaller transformation of the individual than what will (we trust) eventually develop. I'm not denying that even this initial change is often extraordinary and seems spectacular and radical to the individual, and often seems to them like a total conversion, even though it's not. But beyond that point the individual needs to call on the total intervention of his/her Higher Mind, and totally surrender to that.

Having said that, and clarifying a little just how radical the first descension -- of the Higher Mind fully into the physical body and being -- is, I can now say a tiny bit more about the second descension. As I've explained earlier in this thread, the second descension is that of Source, the Infinite, also totally into the physical body, eventually. But it's a physical body which has already been radically turned inside out, so to speak.

My understanding is that once that second descension has been fully completed (and we're leaving out volumes of details here, about the most extraordinary journey possible for a human being), certain things will be true. There'll be the most extraordinary "marriage" of the Infinite with the physical universe. At that point, within that individual, the Infinite will have an extraordinarily full understanding of how the physical universe works, including its interconnections with all higher dimensions. How to describe this? In my last post I was saying that Source is beyond the ordinary mind's comprehension. It can't be put into a box. It doesn't conform to being totally consistent; but neither is it totally inconsistent.

Anyway, there's a borderland area where the uppermost mental world and the lowest of the formless worlds intersect a little. I used to be fascinated for years with visitingthis area, and still find it a wonderful place. the place where most forms go from a "seed" stage to quickly being born.

Basically, the lowest of the formless worlds is a world made up of ideas, in the original sense of "idea" -- not concepts, but the wordless energy that kind of solidifies into a concept once you've managed to find a picture or describe or tag it with. (I've also described this particular formless world as the world of intentions and intensionality -- such as in posts around May 2013.)

Someone into whose physical body the Divine has fully descended will have a mastery of how all these different level planes fit together, and, in particular, of how manifestation in the physical comes about. hence the ability to even create a new physical body almost at will.

No doubt Steiner is referring to this in some sort of way -- not only with regard to the conception of Jesus but also in a later video that of Horus. A Divinely realized being will still probably choose to be born from a woman's womb, which sure beats a test tube, -- though perhaps, or probably, from that of a woman who is herself a Divinely realized being.