Why I think the Non-Duality Stuff is a Psy Op

[Tony]

Understanding Duality and Non Duality.

As long as we feel “I am aware” we are in a duality.
Duality has a time period. Awareness realising it is aware.

Non duality is merely awareness – pure awareness.
It is spontaneous and timeless.

When a 'me' is in the picture there is duality.
Take 'me' out of the picture that is non duality,
just pure perception.

We always have a choice of sanity and insanity.




Tony

[Maunagarjana]

Posted by Omniverse (here)
Do you not have tastes of energy you like being subjected to and not? You don't seem to understand how I see it. Which might be similar to your own. Like I said I can view it holographically, and see from a different perspective that does not see dark/light. But I find duality still has value. you do too as you seem to say you still have dualistic notions or something along those lines...

The form of non-duality I find the psy op is very filled with absolutes... There is no form of duality within such things. Looks like we are debating apples and oranges here, yet you seem to be judging me...

I apologize if my tone seemed judgmental. But just to clarify terms here, when I say "non-dual", the duality that I'm saying isn't real is the duality of Self/Other. You seem to be talking about non-duality in terms of light/dark and good/bad. So we probably are debating apples and oranges.

Non-duality to me is a fact, on a physical level

Are there not positive physical things and negative physical things? Cancer being negative, something like naturally occurring B vitamins positive. Or vitamin D. Can you argue that duality has basis in every single thing there is?

Whether anything is good or bad is all dependent on the point of view, the focus, and the context. Also, some things can be very bad, but it's very existence can help to cause learning to happen on a very deep level by making one face things that are challenging, and this can cause positive growth. Cancer is something I don't want to have, certainly, but there are people who can learn a lot about life and about themselves in the course of having to deal with it.

on a psychological level

Are there not negative and positive psychological mindsets? Or simply put: Mindsets you prefer to experience, and mindsets you do not(pretty much same thing different semantics)? Happiness, zen, contentness, oneness, etc. Or on the other side psychological trauma, negative emotions like hatred etc...

Of course, of course.....what I was trying to say is that who we are as a person is not formed independent of other people. Once again, we may be talking about different things.

and on a spiritual level

This one is more murky... But I believe souls can be purely lightside. I'm not sure if a soul can be purely darkside though...

I think there are souls of all kinds, all across the spectrum.

if you're not ready for that or feel threatened by it.

You seem to be saying it is superior and are operating in a condescending tone... I don't think you understand me. you pretend you do but such is simply a delusion... Spend less time judging others and more explain your point of view is my advice. I didn't get too good of energy from your judgments upon me nor do I feel they contribute to the discussion....

I think I was confused by your use of the term non-dual, which to me has a very specific meaning. Namely, it suggests that there is no separation between you and your environment (whether physical/mental/spiritual), and therefore there is no truly independently existing beings anywhere, no matter how you slice it.

These issues of whether or not there is such thing as cold/hot, pleasant/painful, up/down, etc. do not really interest me. Life as we know it of course is comprised of the interplay of what we experience as opposites. But all of that stuff is arbitrary and based on ones point of view, one's focus, and the contexts involved, which are subject to change. If you pick up any book on the subject of non-duality, you will see that the focus will always come back to this Self/Other apparent dichotomy.

I see now that what you are probably railing against is a false equivalency between light and dark, positive and negative, beneficial and non-beneficial. In that case, I would agree. The people who engage in such false equivalencies seem to be operating on a misunderstanding of non-duality. Also, they just don't want to commit to restraining themselves from acting any way that they feel like, and so they create this mentality of moral relativism, when really they are just being indecisive and immature because they just prefer to live in a state of whimsical ambiguity when it comes to what they really stand for. But sooner or later, I think they will realize this is all BS that they will have to choose a path.

[Apulu]

Wow Omniverse you seem to have a nice habit of creating threads that ask big questions! I don't think have any big answers, perhaps quite obviously, but I quite like to speculate...

I feel it's helpful to draw a line whenever we are talking about non-dual philosophy, or any philosophy for that matter, because it will always be that: a philosophy, and not a reality. Words are not and cannot be reality, obviously, or Truth, if we are talking about the only truth that exists, and surely there can only be one ABSOLUTE truth. I feel there is definitely a danger in talking about non-dualism if one is not living it, because of course there won't be a full understanding of it. It seems to be the same danger any religion has.

It seems throughout history people have made it their mission to discover the truth of reality by stripping away every falsehood within their perception, following, all the way to the end, the simple notion that whatever remains, must be THE Truth. I choose to believe that some, and seemingly only a very few, succeeded completely in this, and that some of those people then chose to attempt to talk about that state (abiding non-dual awarness seems the most accurate term), in the hope of making it easier for others who wanted to follow that path, and do the same thing.

There are plenty of examples around of people, who I believe had reached this state, who were completely mocking the whole concept of a 'philosophy of non-dualism'. No philosophy can talk about that state, accurately, by it's very nature. Perhaps pointers can be given, and points argued, but it seems only an individual using their own, unwritten, criteria, can make that journey to completion.

I have no doubt that those who do truly rid themselves of falsehood, are still making choices dependent on their preferences, and are still able to abide in an awareness that is non-dualistic. I can't imagine those people are sanctioning dark horrible stuff to happen, or would allow it to happen to them, or are causing it to happen on the planet (not suggesting that's what you were suggesting, nececarilly, in this thread Omniverse).

That stuff happens, there's obviously no doubt, and there are people and entities around who perpetuate it. I feel it's the responsibility of everyone and anyone to make choices consciously, according to their preference, about what they are manifesting, and what they want to manifest. I feel as long as there are people on this planet who are not choosing and defining their reality, there will be people around who will be happy to fill the void and make that choice for them, and it's probably not going to be very pleasant!

Perhaps any philosophy can be taken advantage of, by those who would wish to impose their will on others, to make people believe they are choosing, when in fact they are going along with something.

[Hazel]

The group inquiry thats going on in this thread is really stimulating... l had a look around on the topic and found this, thought it may be a good one to throw in for review:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=q_5APJSPpTI

and this

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=YLxdYhbNjOc

[andrewgreen]

Posted by Agape (here)

Posted by Omniverse (here)
.

You're bound to have 'duality perspective' as long as you're incarnated in the human world ,
everyone does , even among the so called 'enlightened masters' - unless ..and that's beyond the 'mind teaching' alone you have also transcended the power of the elements and can dissolve this body like an illusion or a rainbow ..or are in the process to it and unless you get to that point - beyond human existence, dualistic perspective is always present .

In Vedic tradition ..suppose you reach 'supreme realisation' and your mind dwells in the non-duality .. the residual karma is called Prarabdha , the one that exhausts itself with this body.
But to be honest ... denying or judging a mind frame of those who had gone that far .. I think is dangerous by itself - an obstacle to ones healthy spiritual evolution.
To an average person such state of realisation 'does not give good meaning' , from purely materialistic perspective as embraced by majority of this society .. it either does not exist, is a nonsense or sign of vegetable state not anything they'd ever desire or think about .


One thing .. where I would correct your pondering slightly is .. 'viewing holographically' , it's an option .. they call it 'mandala vision' ( just a different terminology ) but in itself, it's but a vision.. it's still conceptual vision , not the 'unity itself' .

The real nature of things is beyond conceptuality ..that's how many people find it difficult to capture, especially those without meditation training because human mind has a tendency to hold on to concepts or images .

There are levels 'beyond conceptuality' where you operate without holding on to anything and do not dwell on your experience , past or present or future .

None of the real masters ever denied good and evil to exist . But it's a huge trap .. exploring the 'samsara' is endless endeavour .


Peace

You do a great job of explaining a really difficult subject, thankyou. I'm not qualified to talk on such a subject but I believe there are enough paradox's or glitches in the matrix in the illusion that is our current reality for people to see things probably aren't as they seem. We can act upon our insights through zen practice or similar to explore the true nature of reality, without the hard work and practice no argument will ever be sufficient. Until we commit to practice we will never have an answer one way or the other.

[Hogswitch]

Posted by Apulu (here)

Perhaps any philosophy can be taken advantage of, by those who would wish to impose their will on others, to make people believe they are choosing, when in fact they are going along with something.

It's not a particular philosophy that's being taken advantage of in our current situation, it's the reality of universal freedom. It's absolutely allowed in this universe for a minority, who understand this particular game well, to impose their will upon a majority, who do not. As things stand at the moment, here on earth, the majority are being lead, some willingly, some blindly and some kicking and screaming, down a path of "darkness". This is perfectly fine with the universe.

Those wishing to change this situation dis-empower themselves by thinking that their "masters" are breaking some universal law, and that somehow the universe will punish the "evil doers" and take away their power. The manipulators are simply using universal freedom to impose their will and preferences upon others.

If you don't know the rules of the game you're playing you can't play well. Forget the, "that's bad" rule it doesn't apply, forget your notion of "fairness" that doesn't apply either. Realise that, if your preferences are not being manifested in your experience, then you are probably playing the game ineffectively. You are losing to a better team. Learn the rules (or rather forget the rules that don't apply), shape up and play a better game. Consider the possibility that alone you are probably not powerful enough to make a difference to the overall result. Consider forming alliances and co-operating with like minded players but be wary, your allies may not always be what they seem. It's the only way to see the world you want to see, come into being. Express your preferences!

Afterthought, it's just a game, but for now, for you, and for most human beings it's a game you have to play. Even if you think that somehow you chose to participate, isn't that all the more reason to play well?

Hog.

[Apulu]

Posted by Hogswitch (here)

Posted by Apulu (here)

Perhaps any philosophy can be taken advantage of, by those who would wish to impose their will on others, to make people believe they are choosing, when in fact they are going along with something.

It's not any philosophy that's being taken advantage of in our current situation, it's the reality of universal freedom.

Hog.

I would agree, except I don't see why you would seem to contradict what I was saying... It is indeed any philosophy that's being taken advantage of it seems, by certain people bent on disinformation, as long as it supports the wider context and agenda of masking the reality of universal freedom

I would also agree with everything else you said there, and well said. Except the bit about forming alliances. That's a choice too, albeit a good one probably for most people, couldn't say for sure. I doubt though that you intended to imply it was a necessity.

[Hogswitch]

Posted by Apulu (here)

Posted by Hogswitch (here)

Posted by Apulu (here)

Perhaps any philosophy can be taken advantage of, by those who would wish to impose their will on others, to make people believe they are choosing, when in fact they are going along with something.

It's not any philosophy that's being taken advantage of in our current situation, it's the reality of universal freedom.

Hog.

I would agree, except I don't see why you would seem to contradict what I was saying... It is indeed any philosophy that's being taken advantage of it seems, by certain people bent on disinformation, as long as it supports the wider context and agenda of masking the reality of universal freedom

I would also agree with everything else you said there, and well said. Except the bit about forming alliances. That's a choice too, albeit a good one probably for most people, couldn't say for sure. I doubt though that you intended to imply it was a necessity.

Yes, on reflection I don't really want to take issue with you on the question of the abuse of certain philosophies. I think I carelessly used that as starting point for my exposition. And no I didn't intend to imply that forming alliances was a necessity just to suggest that it might be a pragmatic choice for many.

Hog.

[Milneman]

[The supreme state] is not perceivable, because it is what makes perception possible. It is beyond being and not being. It is neither the mirror nor the image in the mirror. It is what is - the timeless reality, unbelievably hard and solid.

Ok, so if it's not perceivable, then how does one know it exists?

I'm working through this idea of duality right now, and it makes sense.

There is honey.

There is the pot that holds the honey.

There is the hole the pot that holds the honey is in.

There is bear in the hole, unable to get the honey.

Our senses provide us with input. The mind perceives. Is mind physical? I don't think so. J. P. Moreland did some amazing work on this issue...I'll dig the book out.

http://www.jpmoreland.com/books/body-soul/ Good read.

[Hazel]

for my 2 pennies, simply put:

we are bound in a 'world' of constructs, therefore 'duality' / 'non duality' as such are equally imposing and diluting upon my state(s) of awareness..

If 'thought is form' and there exists ways of perceiving and knowing that are wordless in those preverbal full / empty spaces between words...
those to me are still inextricably constructs in and of themselves.

for consciousness to be unshackled and expansive... we need to abandon the philosophising and get on with immersing ourselves within the unchartered lands of our forms of multidimensional experiencing.

How to connect and how to be with this exploration is my primary concern...

[boutreality]

I do enjoy Taoist philosophies in general- proper cycle of elemental energies; balancing one's own endocrine system and nervous systems and using these precepts to found and strengthen shamanic "actions" which one may take as a way of working for the universal good. This post reminds me of an article I read in Parabolic journal about a Taoist monk/master living in New York city. There are hints here and there throughout Taoist literature that somehow Buddhists 'missed the point. -That in some way what most consider Mindfulness training and focusing thought toward non-dualistic principles are each valuable as preliminary mind structuring techniques and are in no way the end all be all of one's practice. Anyway, in said article, the subject of the interview says he wonders often that Buddhist teachers are failing their followers by not truly preparing them for greater reality. As I've said in other posts, there is a concerted effort to contain man's potential and corral us into ineffectual activities. I have not problem say these agendas and those that pursue them on all levels of existence are evil or negative and They ought to be opposed. The best way to do this is for one to garner their own power with as little reliance as possible upon other beings seen and unseen. To say that other side is simply being in their own way - that to oppose them play into their validity - boils down to a dangerous semantic game.