Are fear, vanity, guilt, and anger actually 'bad' emotions?

[Pris]

One thing I've noticed a lot with so-called 'enlightened' people is the general discouragement of the use of what may be considered 'bad' emotions or feelings like fear, vanity, guilt, and anger.

In particular, the 'anger' one pops up a lot as a bad thing that ought to be avoided.

People who express anger are often shamed and/or shunned.

There's a lot of this 'we are all One' talk, 'we need to love everyone', 'we can't fight them, it's like fighting ourselves', 'we have to play nice', 'we just need to stay calm and think positive thoughts' etc. This is all with regard to the current situation on the planet.

I'm not saying that positive thinking and/or meditation doesn't work. It all helps.

I remembered a scene from an episode in 'Red Dwarf' that does a hilarious (I think) job of illustrating the importance of fear, vanity, guilt, and anger when dealing with an outside threat -- in this case, the Polymorph.

Just replace 'Polymorph' with 'Cabal'.

NOTE: The Polymorph feeds off of dominant emotional states -- removing them entirely from the victim -- leaving the victim unbalanced.


This is the comment I made on another thread and here's the scene from 'Red Dwarf' that sparked the idea for this thread:

Contrary to popular belief, I think you can be angry and calm/level-headed at the same time.

Anger is a tool we can use to help us mobilize ourselves together into action. Anger is the jet fuel required for an impressive ignition. In the current system, we are so disempowered and pushed down, it seems that only after enough people start to get angry about something, that any kind of change can happen.

The character, Rimmer, in this scene from 'Red Dwarf', illustrates my point exactly (he lacks anger).

He's the one wearing a 'Give Quiche A Chance' T-shirt.

Note: the others lost 'fear' (Lister), 'vanity' (Cat), and 'guilt' (Kryten).

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=5WgUktfdDy4

Have we been brainwashed to undervalue and discourage so-called 'bad' emotions like anger because they actually empower us?

Everything needs to be in balance, right? You can't have your yin without your yang.

What do you think?

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Well, a machine taking a look at human emotions would recognize a primitive "checks and balances" system;
emotions, although meaningful to those who experience them, merely provide a framework for logic.

@_@ So yeah when someone tells you your emotions are invalid, inconvenient, etc. they are trying to dis-empower you.
Compromise is the only way out of some problems that some would tell us are "cut and dry".

There is nothing cut and dry about the complexities of interaction and emotion.

People who backshelve those sorts of things tend not to end up in positions of public (or private!) service...

it's the emotional people who end up being veterinarians and writers, etc...


Emotions are one of the building blocks of reality and we are all welcome to create

[PurpleLama]

Eh, anger certainly has its uses. Vanity, not so much. I have no desire to know how beautiful you think you are, or haw much importance you might place on your own appearance. Even fear has it's place, a survival trait, and a deep one, but one to be manipulated of one is not so self aware. No doubt, there is something to the overall line of reasoning, here. That which is designed to embellish or diminish one through the overlay of personality, can be done without, whereas that which emerges from the depth of psyche, that can prove valuable. One may be humble, yet exalted, when one takes one's proper position in relation to Universe.

[Mark]

I think when it come to "enlightened" thought, the idea is that when you let loose with your emotions, you act upon them and create karmic consequences. So releasing the emotions results in further turns on the dharmic wheel. Seeking to manifest one's goals has at its heart desire, and Buddha stated cleary as experience reveals that desire leads invariably to suffering. One remains emotionally tied to the outcome of one's actions. This emotional binding results in the cycle of karmic debt.

That is all well and good for most people as the emotions are a primary vehicle for soul expression and, as many here in PA believe, we are here to experience exactly these things. So it is ok to be emotional. To create karma. To live as we live. Until we no longer have the desire to do so. Until we reach that point, the desires will continue. As one progresses along the path though, ones internal state begins to find a medium between the extremes of expression and non-expression and so as a result they begin to be able to express, in their lives, this ability to moderate and control their desires, and also their emotions.

This spiritual path has an ingrained secret that many further along the path do not often enunciate clearly. That is, that, until one reaches a state of karmic release whereby they are able to experience higher states of being, they are hopelessly mired in the emotional morass. They are slave to their emotions and the karmic return that implies. The desire to achieve, to tie one's action to the outcome of that action, then, is the hurdle to cross.

At the same time, it is possible to overcome this hurdle almost instantaneously. Or instantaneously through a form of "grace", the transmission of "enlightenment" through an event precipitated by a Master. But, the question then becomes, is this experience a result of many lifetimes of trials and tribulations on the dharmic wheel? Is it, "time" for someone to experience an enlightenment event and then move higher, become able to see the nature of reality for what it is and actively control the thoughts and emotions? If that perspective is considered, then perhaps instantaneous is really not that at all, but the result of many lifetimes of effort.

[psychic 11]

I agree with you guys to suppress one's emotions is not healthy to do. In order for us to feel positive and enthusiastic we must also embrace other lower emotions. We cant have Yin without Yang. Nor Light without the Dark.

[Pris]

Posted by PurpleLama (here)
Eh, anger certainly has its uses. Vanity, not so much. I have no desire to know how beautiful you think you are, or haw much importance you might place on your own appearance. Even fear has it's place, a survival trait, and a deep one, but one to be manipulated of one is not so self aware. No doubt, there is something to the overall line of reasoning, here. That which is designed to embellish or diminish one through the overlay of personality, can be done without, whereas that which emerges from the depth of psyche, that can prove valuable. One may be humble, yet exalted, when one takes one's proper position in relation to Universe.

Ahh. But, look what happened to Cat when he lost all his vanity. He became a useless bum that didn't care about himself or anything.

[Pris]

Posted by Rahkyt (here)
I think when it come to "enlightened" thought, the idea is that when you let loose with your emotions, you act upon them and create karmic consequences. So releasing the emotions results in further turns on the dharmic wheel. Seeking to manifest one's goals has at its heart desire, and Buddha stated cleary as experience reveals that desire leads invariably to suffering. One remains emotionally tied to the outcome of one's actions. This emotional binding results in the cycle of karmic debt.

That is all well and good for most people as the emotions are a primary vehicle for soul expression and, as many here in PA believe, we are here to experience exactly these things. So it is ok to be emotional. To create karma. To live as we live. Until we no longer have the desire to do so. Until we reach that point, the desires will continue. As one progresses along the path though, ones internal state begins to find a medium between the extremes of expression and non-expression and so as a result they begin to be able to express, in their lives, this ability to moderate and control their desires, and also their emotions.

This spiritual path has an ingrained secret that many further along the path do not often enunciate clearly. That is, that, until one reaches a state of karmic release whereby they are able to experience higher states of being, they are hopelessly mired in the emotional morass. They are slave to their emotions and the karmic return that implies. The desire to achieve, to tie one's action to the outcome of that action, then, is the hurdle to cross.

At the same time, it is possible to overcome this hurdle almost instantaneously. Or instantaneously through a form of "grace", the transmission of "enlightenment" through an event precipitated by a Master. But, the question then becomes, is this experience a result of many lifetimes of trials and tribulations on the dharmic wheel? Is it, "time" for someone to experience an enlightenment event and then move higher, become able to see the nature of reality for what it is and actively control the thoughts and emotions? If that perspective is considered, then perhaps instantaneous is really not that at all, but the result of many lifetimes of effort.

This is all great and everything if you believe in karma. I'm not the only one who considers 'karma' a belief system. Please let me emphasize that this is a consideration as I wait for more pieces to fall into place.

What you are suggesting is that these ARE bad emotions (fear, vanity, guilt, anger) and they DO pull us down based on the 'laws' of 'karma'. Hmmm. I'm not sure I buy that.

It's interesting how 'karma' uses guilt to motivate our actions.

[PurpleLama]

Posted by Pris (here)

Posted by PurpleLama (here)
Eh, anger certainly has its uses. Vanity, not so much. I have no desire to know how beautiful you think you are, or haw much importance you might place on your own appearance. Even fear has it's place, a survival trait, and a deep one, but one to be manipulated of one is not so self aware. No doubt, there is something to the overall line of reasoning, here. That which is designed to embellish or diminish one through the overlay of personality, can be done without, whereas that which emerges from the depth of psyche, that can prove valuable. One may be humble, yet exalted, when one takes one's proper position in relation to Universe.

Ahh. But, look what happened to Cat when he lost all his vanity. He became a useless bum that didn't care about himself or anything.

Sounds good to me! Nah, really, that was what the humble but exalted statement I made was kinda sideways speaking to. Vanity impedes clarity of one's self, is all. If we knew what we were really about we wouldn't need any artifice at all. Perfectly fine.

[Mark]

Posted by Pris (here)
This is all great and everything if you believe in karma. I'm not the only one who considers 'karma' a belief system. Please let me emphasize that this is a consideration as I wait for more pieces to fall into place.

If you are more scientifically-minded, perhaps Newton's third law of motion might apply: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Same idea expressed purely at the material level, having to do with basic physics. The jump from the physical to the emotional/psychic is not far. If you are proponent of coincidence and luck, then perhaps it is some distance to go.

Posted by Pris (here)
What you are suggesting is that these ARE bad emotions (fear, vanity, guilt, anger) and they DO pull us down based on the 'laws' of 'karma'. Hmmm. I'm not sure I buy that.

It's interesting how 'karma' uses guilt to motivate our actions.

Actually, no.

They are NOT bad emotions. Because, joy, happiness, are equally karma-producing as anger, fear, etc. So ALL of the extremes are to be avoided, not just those you call the negative ones.

Sounds boring, right?

[wnlight]

Pris, My take is that fear, vanity, guilt, anger are not bad emotions that need to be actively suppressed. What I found in my case was that I should not let emotions run my life. Emotions are energies of the gut and can lead you to act in a way that your brain or your heart would never do. As I spent more time meditating, I found less use for these emotions. I did not actively work to suppress emotions except for fear. I learned early to not let fear control me. More easily said than done in my case. My point is that these emotions are still with me, but have simply faded to gray.

Fear of karma is useless. Karma doesn't pull you down; fear pulls you down. I would't worry about it. Later on, you will learn more of the 'laws' of karma and, if you wish, you can simply delete all the karma built up in your life and in your prior lives. But don't claim karma doesn't exist. It is quite real.

[Pris]

Posted by wnlight (here)
Pris, My take is that fear, vanity, guilt, anger are not bad emotions that need to be actively suppressed. What I found in my case was that I should not let emotions run my life. Emotions are energies of the gut and can lead you to act in a way that your brain or your heart would never do. As I spent more time meditating, I found less use for these emotions. I did not actively work to suppress emotions except for fear. I learned early to not let fear control me. More easily said than done in my case. My point is that these emotions are still with me, but have simply faded to gray.

Fear of karma is useless. Karma doesn't pull you down; fear pulls you down. I would't worry about it. Later on, you will learn more of the 'laws' of karma and, if you wish, you can simply delete all the karma built up in your life and in your prior lives. But don't claim karma doesn't exist. It is quite real.

Excellent. BUT, I did not claim that 'karma' doesn't exist. I'm considering that it doesn't exist. Big difference. You have to admit, we humans do make up a lot of things.

[Pris]

Posted by Rahkyt (here)

Posted by Pris (here)
What you are suggesting is that these ARE bad emotions (fear, vanity, guilt, anger) and they DO pull us down based on the 'laws' of 'karma'. Hmmm. I'm not sure I buy that.

It's interesting how 'karma' uses guilt to motivate our actions.

Actually, no.

They are NOT bad emotions. Because, joy, happiness, are equally karma-producing as anger, fear, etc. So ALL of the extremes are to be avoided, not just those you call the negative ones.

Sounds boring, right?

No, not boring lol. Let me see... so, if I feel an excessive amount of sheer bliss, for example, that's an extreme to be avoided?

Posted by wnlight (here)
My point is that these emotions are still with me, but have simply faded to gray.

I'm not sure I'm liking this idea of 'watering down' all my emotions into some kind of... grey muck...

I like black. I like white.

[Mark]

Posted by Pris (here)
No, not boring lol. Let me see... so, if I feel an excessive amount of sheer bliss, for example, that's an extreme to be avoided?

Well...here is where the definition of words is important. Bliss...is, supposedly, something different from happiness, which is considered to be an emotional state. Bliss is thought to be something deeper, like peace. Bliss is a word that is often used to describe the experience of Nirvana, for example. A state beyond mundane happiness. Joy is often conflated with bliss, but it is also conflated with happiness as well. Hence, all of the confusion. LOL

Goodness gracious. It is just so much easier to just live. And that, is the core of the Tao. The Way. All will clarify of its own, without all of these mental gymnastics because that is, in essence, what it is all about anyway, describing the indescribable. It is actually much easier just to experience it and live in that experience. Again, we're back to thought. Ruminating, dwelling, over-thinking.

A constant issue.

[Selene]

This is a fascinating discussion.

My personal take on whether emotions are “good” or “bad” is this: Is this emotion, right now, helping you cleanse something or is it making you feel worse? Does this deal with something that needed clearing – or is the emotion further burdening you?

The various registers of emotional level from blind rage to saintly bliss, whether guilt, shame or joy, all have a place in our experience. And no emotion – as such – is either good or bad or in-between. It is simply a part of our human experience. We are vain, silly, lustful, comical and very human mammalian beings. That's our nature.

The question is: How is this emotion serving me?

The emotions connected with our past experience have only to be acknowledged as strong feelings in order to be released. They can flow through us and head onward into oblivion, no matter. It is a river.

What is of interest from here going forward is: How do I feel about this present moment – the Now – in which I exist? How am I responding here and now, even to the memory of old feelings? And can I 'own' my emotions as a part of my valid self - or am I still running away from myself?

And that critical response is what avoids building emotional memories now that may not serve you well going forward.

It is about consciousness: awareness of who you are and what you are feeling right now, here and now.

This is what will free you.

Consciousness is all. Allow yourself to grow.

My fondest respects,

Selene

[Pris]

Posted by Rahkyt (here)

Posted by Pris (here)
No, not boring lol. Let me see... so, if I feel an excessive amount of sheer bliss, for example, that's an extreme to be avoided?

Well...here is where the definition of words is important. Bliss...is, supposedly, something different from happiness, which is considered to be an emotional state. Bliss is thought to be something deeper, like peace. Bliss is a word that is often used to describe the experience of Nirvana, for example. A state beyond mundane happiness. Joy is often conflated with bliss, but it is also conflated with happiness as well. Hence, all of the confusion. LOL

Goodness gracious. It is just so much easier to just live. And that, is the core of the Tao. The Way. All will clarify of its own, without all of these mental gymnastics because that is, in essence, what it is all about anyway, describing the indescribable. It is actually much easier just to experience it and live in that experience. Again, we're back to thought. Ruminating, dwelling, over-thinking.

A constant issue.

So, sheer bliss is a 'good' thing and not actually related to emotions (where excessive emotions -- not necessarily emotions in general -- are supposedly 'bad'). That's rather convoluted, eh? Over-thinking is certainly overrated. Still, I'm glad we cleared up that 'bliss' part of it lol.

[Mark]

Posted by Pris (here)
So, sheer bliss is a 'good' thing and not actually related to emotions (where excessive emotions -- not necessarily emotions in general -- are supposedly 'bad'). That's rather convoluted, eh? Over-thinking is certainly overrated. Still, I'm glad we cleared up that 'bliss' part of it lol.

Think of bliss as the natural state of that pure awareness that we all are at core, and the emotional states as the lesser expression of the mind and the physical body. So, this experience, of pleasure, pain and all their permutations are occurring with a bubble floating in this sea of bliss. A bubble that contains both time and space, while the bliss is ever-present, and accessible to those who do the work necessary to find it. If they can just break through the walls of that bubble, for just a little while.

[Craig]

I am not far along the path of others here, though I hope to be one day, but I only see see issues with the bademotions if they have an explicit affect on other people or their freewill. I would think that we are suppose to feel these emotions as part of our journeys but when we say use anger to inflict pain and suffering on others for no reason then that is a big no no. I guess also the so called good emotions could be in the same boat as in you love someone so much that you do impact on their freewill too, I don't know how exactly perhaps they are scared to do something that they think may be a let down to you or others, I am not too sure here,

Though I do know Rimmer is a smeghead and roll on 2015 and Red Dwarf XI

[Craig]

Posted by Rahkyt (here)

Posted by Pris (here)
So, sheer bliss is a 'good' thing and not actually related to emotions (where excessive emotions -- not necessarily emotions in general -- are supposedly 'bad'). That's rather convoluted, eh? Over-thinking is certainly overrated. Still, I'm glad we cleared up that 'bliss' part of it lol.

Think of bliss as the natural state of that pure awareness that we all are at core, and the emotional states as the lesser expression of the mind and the physical body. So, this experience, of pleasure, pain and all their permutations are occurring with a bubble floating in this sea of bliss. A bubble that contains both time and space, while the bliss is ever-present, and accessible to those who do the work necessary to find it. If they can just break through the walls of that bubble, for just a little while.

Rahkyt - can bliss become tiresome? by that I mean to us here in the 3D environment where if you have too much of something whether good or bad you tire of it? or do you need to experience the contrast in order to understand how it feels? In order to know what paradise is do you need to understand what hell is like? Without reference can you truly feel if a situation is good or bad? I hope this makes sense for you.

[PurpleLama]

With bliss, no such thing as tiresome.....

[Mark]

Purplelama said it best. That state, that space of being, is undifferentiated, as it is a return to what is known as the formative void, the non-space/space of being and creation itself. Words are inadequate to the task of describing it. Just as the entirety of our dreams cannot be put into words, as they occur in a higher dimensional context and we are not equipped at the material level to understand and explain it all using our 3D words and thoughts. Just as polytonal languages (African, Asian, Indigenous etc.) are more descriptive than monotonal (IndoEuropean). The language of creation is beyond our mundane knowing.