Forgiveness: Necessary, or just a way of stopping you from retaliating to aggression?

[Sean]

Just a thought..forgiveness, is, to a certain extent, necessary. If only to allow the person hurt to move on. but isn't forgiveness ALSO used, on both a personal and a societal level, to stop victims from going after their tormentors? Think of all the things we endure: False flag terror, geoengineering, loss of civil liberties..on and on. and we see no end of articles, posts, talks on forgiveness. It's WAY out of proportion to the notion of "consequences for your actions", which, frankly, is more effective as a problem-solver in my humble opinion.

As someone who used to attend a theosophical lodge..I notice new-agers in particular seems incredibly passive. No matter what someone does..their answer seems to NOT include defense of self. Just my experience. what do you all think?

/discuss

[raregem]

Oh MY!
The year 2014 brought so much shock to me. I had 2 very deep friends turn their backs on me at the time when I could have used their support. ( for a change). They no longer have my deep, abiding trust. Going through the shock, anger, acceptance, forgiveness was my lot.
OK. So I forgive people regarding my perceived injustices. Now what?
I am left feeling impotent, used and manipulated. I couldn't see they would be liars TO me and about me. Blows my mind, once again. I try to believe in the best yet, I do not experience folks in this way. Used to blame myself. Now I am thinking like your post- WorkingActor. This does NOT have a peace of mind attached to forgiveness when the harm is so blatant and ignored by the giver. I must convince myself this is for the higher good these days. It used to be so easy to let it be but way too many years and times of abuse has passed. Now what?

[WhiteLove]

Posted by workingactor (here)
Just a thought..forgiveness, is, to a certain extent, necessary. If only to allow the person hurt to move on. but isn't forgiveness ALSO used, on both a personal and a societal level, to stop victims from going after their tormentors? Think of all the things we endure: False flag terror, geoengineering, loss of civil liberties..on and on. and we see no end of articles, posts, talks on forgiveness. It's WAY out of proportion to the notion of "consequences for your actions", which, frankly, is more effective as a problem-solver in my humble opinion.

As someone who used to attend a theosophical lodge..I notice new-agers in particular seems incredibly passive. No matter what someone does..their answer seems to NOT include defense of self. Just my experience. what do you all think?

/discuss

It depends also on what you choose to be guided by, how you want to grow as a spirit/soul. I have chosen Jesus Christ as the master that I'm guided by. I have chosen unconditional love as the theme to grow as a spirit/soul in this life, because I find something profoundly beautiful, peaceful and true about it that I want my spirit/soul to align to and how I want to impact others by my being. With this comes forgiveness towards self and forgiveness towards other selves. With this comes unconditional love towards self and unconditional love towards other selves. With this comes not judging self and not judging other selves. With this also comes service to others before service to self which also is a way of loving your self unconditionally, because we are all one. With this also comes being authentic. What I am guided by is essentially these words by Jesus: "Love your neighbors so unconditionally that not even your own life is a condition on that love". For me when Jesus died on the cross for the love of me, that's special, that's powerful, that's beautiful. I want to become/be like that. How I do so is as I mentioned by letting my being be guided by the principles of unconditional love. My logical mind likes truth seeking, so the combination I hope will assist in the ascension process and freeing of humanity towards peace, love and happiness. This also means that God is using me where these qualities are needed. I am going through a lot just by having made this decision. It's all but easy. But since I strive towards also loving myself unconditionally, making mistakes is something I do not judge myself on. I learn from them, I am guided by them and I move on. Being a Christian in this kind of way is not being a person that strictly follows tons of rules or try to create some kind of boring life, it's exactly the opposite, unconditional love creates a child of me, a child that wants to be excited and have fun. So it is the opposite. It is about avoiding limitation, about facing life from this point of view and leaning towards the principles of unconditional love towards self and other selves, through life, however it turns out.

[Pam]

Working actor, you gave examples of forgiveness in your OP as allowing false flag terror, geoengineering or loss of civil liberties. I do not agree that our lack of response to these things is anything like forgiveness. I think there are many reasons why we allow these things to continue. In some cases apathy may be more accurate, also, feelings of powerlessness and just lack of knowing what to do may be more accurate reasons why these things are allowed to continue.


Forgiveness, when I think a wrong is done to me is simply the most practical approach. If I allow someone the power to dominate my thoughts and emotions because they did not behave the way I thought they should, then I am the loser in the situation. What better empowerment is there in this world than walking through life with no expectations of having others behave the way I want them too. Not being willing to forgive someone or something is a last ditch effort at controlling someone or something that I have no control over.

So, to me, forgiveness is not some benevolent thing that I do with spiritual oneupmanship. It is a practical and freeing action that lets me walk through life with a minimum of mental and spiritual encumbrances.

[jeanpistache]

That's a very good question I think. Forgiveness is so important, maybe there wouldn't be life without it.

[Violet]

I'm thinking microscale, interpersonal relations. Forgiving, the real version, is not for weaklings. It takes a lot of courage and strength to do that. It's definitely not the easy way out, far from it. Why forgiveness? It's a building block. And when many get it right, the construction starts to arise.

Forgiveness can become a joke though, in which case other solutions must be sought. On the macroscale of your examples we apply laws. And if applicable, laws and their managers can be changed.

[Ernie Nemeth]

To me, forgiveness does not mean absolution. Me forgiving you does nothing for you and everything for me. It is me that is freed by my forgiveness.

I can forgive someone for not paying me my due, so I can move on in peace, but you still owe me my money. I can forgive the unkind words, the punch in the nose, the jilted lover, but that does not erase their actions, right or wrong.

[Czarek]

Few of my favorite quotes:

"Forgiveness is the choice to see people as they are now. When we’re mad at people, we’re angry because of something they said or did before this moment. By letting go of the past, we make room for miracles to replace our grievances"
Marianne Williamson

"Learn to Write your hurt in sand. Learn to carve your blessings in stone"
Author Unknown.

"Never does the human soul seem so strong as when it forgoes revenge, and dares to forgive an injury"
E.H. Chaplin

"The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the strong"
Mahatma Gandhi



Oh source of all life, here I stand before you, bruised, broken and humble. Why? Why all this pain? What have I done to deserve this? I do not understand right now. Sometimes I blame myself for all this pain. Sometimes I feel so guilty that I have somehow been the cause of all this turmoil. Help me to sort out this misery. Help me to see with clear eyes and heart. Open my eyes that I may understand what I nee to change in me to be a genuine happy person. Open my heart so that I may accept the blame only for what I have done to bring me to this point. Give me the courage to do what is right which this knowledge. Also, show me when I am guilty of wrong so that I can leave that burden where it belongs. Lift this fog of confusion. Guide me to see and accept the truth about myself and to love myself as I should. Guide me to discover what I should feel guilty about so that I may change it and do the right thing. But also give me the discernment that I need to discard the blame I do not deserve...

[Innocent Warrior]

The most obvious consequence of betraying me is loss of trust and the absence of me in their life but forgiveness has never been necessary with me. We're all flying blind here and I don't take anything personally at the end of the day. I'd love to see more compassion in this world, it's so much more appropriate and powerful than forgiveness.

If I learn that I can't trust somebody then that's it, it's gone, no more trust for that person, or at the least I will no longer trust them with whatever they screwed up. It's not the worst thing in life to learn where we can place our trust and where we can't. If I see they will repeat their harmful actions then I'm gone and there's nothing they can do to change that...bye bye Sweet Cheeks, interaction between us is no good for either of us.

I'm not sure I even understand forgiveness, I don't get it. Does it mean you will still have a relationship with that person or still trust them despite what they have done to you, because you forgive them? That does my head in and makes no sense to me, is it like a get out of jail free card? I see judgement and foolishness in that. We're not doing them or ourselves any good by putting up with their bad behaviour or smoothing it over, we are denying them the opportunity to see the truth of their selves and subjecing ourselves to harm. Also, who are we to forgive anyway? Who are we to judge? Maybe I'm a new-ager? I don't know. The concept of forgiveness is just confusing for me.

Compassion seems more loving and being honest about where we now place our trust seems more helpful for everyone involved. People think I'm ruthless like that though so I don't know, maybe it's one of those social skills that didn't develop in my formative years.

There's lots I don't trust my self with.

[Bluegreen]

Part of our journey will be forgiving the Rockefellers and their satanic cronies for their massive crimes against humanity
And it will be a hard road

[Tesseract]

Our governments preach peace and pacifism when it suits them, and unfortunately some people have become brainwashed with this mindset even when faced with extreme and blatant immorality. The Israel-Palestine conflict is just one example where many people, all love and light as they say, will criticize Palestinians for violent resistance. The major political parties also demand forgiveness for their own mistakes, no matter how severe, and yet don't afford this forgiveness to their own citizens. Unfortunately we are now in a paradigm where our (western) governments can pretty well do anything they please with absolute impunity.

So, for me, the forgiveness has become counter-productive.

[northstar]

Mark Passio has a lot to say about this topic, workingactor. He has dozens of free podcasts on his website where he rants against New Age passivity.
I suspect that may have been the intent of your message.
Although I can't stand to listen to Mark Passio due to the vitriolic nature of much of his speaking, I DO like some of his core ideas, one of which is that we must begin to balance out the soft, right brained, "everything is oneness, love and light", new age mentality with some clear thinking, hard edged, left brained warrior energy.

I like Passio's idea that too much of either type of energy is devastating - in order to survive and thrive in these perilous times we must we "whole brained", not too much left brained (dry, cold linear logic) or too much right brained ("we are all love and light so evil people can do whatever they want - lah dee dah")

We must balance both.

PS - he has two videos on this page on "New Age Bull***"
http://www.whatonearthishappening.com/videos
(as I said above, I personally find him hard to listen to due to the intensely vitriolic nature of his delivery BUT I do like many of his ideas...)

[northstar]

Reply #2:
Here is my second reply, mostly in relation to "personal" forgiveness. I do believe that on a personal level it is necessary to come to a place of forgiveness for any personal injury or harm another person may have done to you. It is important to forgive on a personal level not to make what that person did "OK" (because in many cases nothing could make it OK) but to release yourself from having to carry around bitterness, resentment, anger and hurt.
Forgiveness on a personal level is a very healing thing to do. It helps heal your own emotions and it improves your own psychological health.

However, to look at those forces that are currently destroying and poisoning and laying waste to the very ecosystem we need to survive, and passively say "love and light to those dark forces, its not my problem you see, because I only have "nice" thoughts" is to stand by while a terrible evil is being committed and do nothing. That makes the passive "love and lighters" complicit in that evil. And to clarify what I mean by that evil, I am talking about the eco-cide of our living biosphere, which all life currently here needs to continue living.

[Innocent Warrior]

Posted by northstar (here)
Reply #2:
Here is my second reply, mostly in relation to "personal" forgiveness. I do believe that on a personal level it is necessary to come to a place of forgiveness for any personal injury or harm another person may have done to you. It is important to forgive on a personal level not to make what that person did "OK" (because in many cases nothing could make it OK) but to release yourself from having to carry around bitterness, resentment, anger and hurt.
Forgiveness on a personal level is a very healing thing to do. It helps heal your own emotions and it improves your own psychological health.

However, to look at those forces that are currently destroying and poisoning and laying waste to the very ecosystem we need to survive, and passively say "love and light to those dark forces, its not my problem you see, because I only have "nice" thoughts" is to stand by while a terrible evil is being committed and do nothing. That makes the passive "love and lighters" complicit in that evil. And to clarify what I mean by that evil, I am talking about the eco-cide of our living biosphere, which all life currently here needs to continue living.

I see what you mean about forgiveness, it seems to be a healthy letting go, I've done a lot of that. There are just facets of it that still confuse me, no biggie.

Whether "love and lighters" are complicite in that evil or not is subject to their comprehension of how realities are created. If they really are looking at what's going on and just saying oh that's not my problem, I have nothing to do with that because I'm a positive thinker then they are NOT light warriors. A true light warrior can feel a great responsibility to do something about it but how they choose to respond may appear passive from the outside, while in truth it is not at all. It's not passive or agressive, it's wise, it's a demonstration in understanding profound truths about reality.

[Ernie Nemeth]

"Personal forgiveness". Is there any other kind?

It is not in my power to forgive someone their actions, I cannot take it back for them. Can I forgive and punish at the same time...yes I can. The reason to forgive is simple - I want to be forgiven my wrong actions. I am a good person, I deserve a second chance, and a third, and a fourth. So do those that have wronged me. But what has been done is done, and sometimes you gotta pay. And sometimes there ain't any more second chances.

Thought that was more obvious. Sorry.

[Innocent Warrior]

forgive
fəˈɡɪv/
verb
stop feeling angry or resentful towards (someone) for an offence, flaw, or mistake.
"I'll never forgive David for the way he treated her"
synonyms: pardon, excuse, exonerate, absolve, acquit, let off, grant an amnesty to, amnesty; More
antonyms: blame, convict, resent
no longer feel angry about or wish to punish (an offence, flaw, or mistake).
"I was willing to forgive all her faults for the sake of our friendship"
cancel (a debt).
"he proposed that their debts should be forgiven"

Ohh ok, I get it now. I had problems with anger for a long time and I don't now, one reason is because I understand a lot more about situations, the human condition etc. I never thought of it as forgiveness though, just that I became better at understanding. I was confused at the definition because I've seen a lot of people focus on the blame end of it and how they are doing the receiver of the forgiveness some sort of favour. My head hurts just thinking about it. Anyway, according to this definition, I have been forgiving.

By the way, I only say good-bye to people who I know are still capable of doing harm to me, never over just making mistakes.

I'm not sure if you're addressing northstar or me as well because I didn't understand, rebel, but if it was me too then no need to be sorry. It would be me being dense, not your post.

[Karma Ninja]

Not as difficult if we consider the good and evil within us all. The actions of these people are neither good nor bad. Our reaction to their actions are neither good nor bad. We feel strongly one way and yet another soul feels strongly the other way. It is all apart of the journey. Beyond good and evil, it is what we are.

"Rockefeller and his satanic cronies" are just stones in the path that brought you here. Are you unsatisfied with where you are? You are here and they are there. We are all just bumps in the road. But we are apart of something different from the casual norm, the well worn path. We here in Avalon are daring to drift to another part of the path. We are here to shine light where there appears only to be darkness. One cannot exist without the other. Part of the celebration will be the acceptance that their impact is worth celebrating too. So why forgive? Forgiveness is for the weak. True evil doesn't seek nor does it want forgiveness. We are here to accept. Accept and move on.

Damn! That sounded deep. No wonder some friends call me the Buddha! Lol!

Posted by Bluegreen (here)
Part of our journey will be forgiving the Rockefellers and their satanic cronies for their massive crimes against humanity
And it will be a hard road

[jackovesk]

FORGIVENESS - ((Damned if you do & Damned if you don't))...

I ((Forgive You)) certain Mods..

[Wind]

Forgiveness is the only thing that stops the wheel of karma. Until people learn to let go and forgive, painful lessons will be ahead as long as they are needed. How hard can it actually be to forgive and love? Why stick to the pride, bitterness and arrogance? In the end only you will be end up hurting. It's not worth all the pain that is being accumulated. All that being said, it doesn't mean that I accept if something wrong is being done to me or to others, I strongly oppose such things. "Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=J7ZW4-ntGtA

[Violet]

Do they? I think some people know very well what they are doing and if I decide to forgive them, it's not because they didn't know what they were doing, although they would like you to believe that.

Posted by Wind (here)
"Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."