Lucifer, Satan and Other Discussions

[t2016]

I would like again to hear your point of view about the following videos. It is good to learn from different view. My response to those piece of information is jaw-dropping and huge disappointment.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dcpVrtv2t-M

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=pFR5igb28ZE

Moderator update:

The above two videos are no longer available. Krytzian has provided the following video as an update:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=EHlpKirpYQc

His post, #8 below, also explains what this ritual in the church is about.

[Jantje]

Who says Lucifer is Satan ? As far as I know Lucifer is Venus. Satan means adversary. Where does this confusion come from ?

[transiten]

The Illuminati is Luciferian not Satanistic. Just because Lucifer means lightbringer and that Venus is called Lucifer doesn't mean Lucifer cannot be used in a negative way. Everything ca be used and misused like a knife, to peel an apple or to kill.

[Jantje]

I agree with that. The point is that Lucifer is portrayed as a deity who is Satan. Like they are one and the same. I'm not talking about luciferian religion.

[Agape]

Please get some historical perspective ... it's extremely detailed and variable .. but that's all about ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

Lucifer (/ˈlʲuːsɪfər/ lew-sif-ər) is the King James Version rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל in Isaiah 14:12. This word, transliterated hêlêl[1] or heylel,[2] occurs only once in the Hebrew Bible[1] and according to the KJV-influenced Strong's Concordance means "shining one, morning star".[2] The word Lucifer is taken from the Latin Vulgate,[3] which translates הֵילֵל as lucifer,[Isa 14:12][4][5] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing".[6] The Septuagint renders הֵילֵל in Greek as ἑωσφόρος[7][8][9][10][11] (heōsphoros),[12][13][14] a name, literally "bringer of dawn", for the morning star.[15]

Later Christian tradition came to use the Latin word for "morning star", lucifer, as a proper name ("Lucifer") for the Devil; as he was before his fall.[16] As a result, "'Lucifer' has become a by-word for Satan/the Devil in the Church and in popular literature",[3] as in Dante Alighieri's Inferno and John Milton's Paradise Lost.[14] However, the Latin word never came to be used almost exclusively, as in English, in this way, and was applied to others also, including Christ.[17] The image of a morning star fallen from the sky is generally believed among scholars to have a parallel in Canaanite mythology.[18]

However, according to both Christian[19] and Jewish exegesis, in the Book of Isaiah, chapter 14, the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar II, conqueror of Jerusalem, is condemned in a prophetic vision by the prophet Isaiah and is called the "Morning Ha" (planet Venus).[20][21] In this chapter the Hebrew text says הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר (Helel ben Shaḥar, "shining one, son of the morning").[22] "Helel ben Shaḥar" may refer to the Morning Star, but the text in Isaiah 14 gives no indication that Helel was a star or planet.

Otherwise , I completely agree with Transiten , it's the context in which any particular word and its meaning become 'illuminated' or 'lost' .

'Venus' the morning 'Star' seems bright but its brightness is not of its own , it's not Star after all but a Planet and without reflecting Sun light it would look quite dim anyway .
In another words 'lucifer does not enlighten itself' . It's a metaphor that has been used in multiple examples .


In Vedas , Gods are called the Suras , meaning Good , and Devas = Shining Ones , while Demi-gods and demons are called Asuras ( a- in Sanskrit , similarly to old latin is the first letter and signifies either ante-ceding , anticipation or a negative ) .

However , in old Persia ( and Zoroastrian religion that's told to be one of the oldest surviving religions on Earth ) ,
Light = flame of Life = symbol of Creator had been worshiped as such , a symbol,
and the name old Iranians ( Persians ) had for God was Ahura Mazda : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda, of which one meaning is 'eternal Light' .

The same people acknowledged presence of 'Angels' they called 'Azuras'( Messengers of Light ) and beings they called 'Suras' ( servants of the previous that later evolved to either demigods or demons when the same beings revolted against their lords , fighting for supremacy in heaven ) in old Persian ,

but .. when old 'aryan' ( Iranian ) civilisation migrated and settled on Indian subcontinent whole new culture was established by them including remake of the religion and creation of pure sanskrit language , foremost ,
when 'Suru' - the good , the obedient , was also the new word to signify Gods = Suras,

and Asura - is translated as demigod ( more of the nasty category ) .

So you can observe almost complete flip of meanings following change of cultural and historical perspectives .

[Lifebringer]

Interesting and..it appears that they twist scripture to have the people unknowingly worship idols like owls and such. Is this why the war on other civilizations religions occurred?

Just saying, since the dawn of mankind, man has "man"ipulated the population for dupes to gain riches and power, to the point of creating old elves coming down narrow chimneys and Easter rabbits laying eggs for "holy" day profits, not prophets.

Any truths at this time, will have to come from above, because they own the media/knews, military, government, and religious observance days for business.

Shame, but the truth is always a little tough to take. Idk, if he's about to divide Christianity because the Vatican does hold all the religious secrets artifacts, from day one they started accumulating.
For me, I've seen a lot in my day, am thankful I speak out against it (very loudly at times) and recognize when it's time to give it over to the true creators of time, love, universe and laws of God. I care not for the frills of filling other pockets, at the expense of losing my mission for my soul. Always do both with judgement of the heart. If a company doesn't honor my planet or family's health, why patronize it. I've also seen where international and NY blogs paper's/posts, speak of going after those who "boycott businesses" through the law. With the protests becoming more diverse, there is no profiling other than the amount of money you earn and those who are stealing at the top and want to keep it that way.
Keep paying attention, they cannot lie and get away with it anymore. It's all about the 's intent.

[Agape]

Posted by Lifebringer (here)
Interesting and..it appears that they twist scripture to have the people unknowingly worship idols like owls and such. Is this why the war on other civilizations religions occurred?

Yes and no , I think it's literally what people do : 'demonise' other peoples religions . If they live in simple , totemistic societies with village 'Godhead' looking equally simple such as 'Great Bear' ( the protector .. with connection to Ursa Major perhaps )
when the neighbour tribe get angry they will show the Bear as a beast tamed by their own hero ,Orion , for example .
Their 'deity' portrayed as more sophisticated and advanced takes over no matter what was the original 'Great Bear' mythology associated with ,
it's people who create their religions after all ...

[Kryztian]

The clip is from the Exsultet, a prayer chanted at the beginning of the Easter Vigil Mass (Saturday night before Easter). The church is entirely dark and a procession enters with the lit pascal candle. The candle is used to light the candles that the congregation holds as the church becomes light again. They are "bringing the light into the world" just as Christ was the light which came into the world. The Exsultet is a prayer that the candle may hold our intentions during the Mass and during the night. Near the end of this 6 minute chanted prayer, the following words are said (when the service is done in Rome, in Latin):

Flammas eius lúcifer matutínus invéniat: ille, inquam, lúcifer, qui nescit occásum. Christus Fílius tuus, qui, regréssus ab ínferis, humáno géneri serénus illúxit, et vivit et regnat in sæcula sæculórum

Most other Catholic churches, the Exsultet is chanted in the venacular language. In English it is:

May this flame be found still burning by the Morning Star: the one Morning Star who never sets, Christ your Son, who, coming back from death's domain, has shed his peaceful light on humanity, and lives and reigns for ever and ever.

Lucifer, in the Latin Vulgate, simply mean "bringer of light" and was the word for "Venus" when it appeared in the sky before sunrise, which the Roman did not realize was that it was the same star that appeared at times a few hours after sunset. When Venus appeared in the morning, it reminded us that the greater light was coming, the sun (or the Son of God.)

The idea that "Lucifer" was another name for Satan or synonymous with Evil, did not appear until the late Middle Ages (in Dante's Divine Commedy or Milton's Paradise Lost), over a thousand years after the Vulgate Bible and centuries after the "Exsultet" was written.

The Exsultet is only used on the Easter Vigil Mass. This video claims it was used in a mass that was celebrated for two new saints - the Exsultet would not have been used there. Another fabrication in this video.

As a Roman Catholic, who sometimes has the honor of chanting the Exsultet, I can tell you that many of us see the church as an instrument of social justice. We run soup kitchens, we have homeless people sleeping in out churches overnight, we support charities that do social work and give financial assistance to the poor, and provide great Catholic school education in inner cities, where public schools aren't always the greatest, free of charge to those who can't afford it. This is all our way of bringing the light into the world.

[Carmody]

A 'Satan' is a justice of the peace, an appointed delivery point for the judgement of the combined gods (very plural, not singular, ie, a group), within the context of the origins of the Abrahamic lore.

Lucifer was/is the lightbearer/lightbringer/angel of the dawn, in the context of the said lore.

The two things are not the same -they are very different, they cannot be conflated.

When combined with the first and original observational science that all other sciences came from....the science of astrology (the highest of all, the most close to a truthful context of reality and it's functions as emergence and flow) ...we get to the thing called the 'ascendant' in astrology.

Reality is a vibrational and frequency cross dimension balanced system. This place we call earth, 3d timespace thing (derived from 2d field interference/integration systems), is only one aspect of it. We are as looking through a mirror and then only seeing/sensing within the reflection on the one (far) side.

The ascendant is the part where the soul enters the body (and possibly the leaving/combining/flow point) and is the position of the sun on the horizon, when the person is born, wherever (on the planet) that may be.

It is refractive in nature, ie pure white light, broken into it's various components. The bend or filter modification point in a refractive context. Light that we see is just a small component of that multidimensional function that is occurring in the localization we call refraction and the dawn's light.

Exactly this, but the light refraction is only one small component:



An energy shift change point, from one state or function, to another. In astrology, the ascendant is considered to be the rose colored glasses we wear upon ourselves, a filter that we cannot seem to escape, everything going in and out, goes through this filter. We are flavored in our entirety, by this ascendant function.

Thus, Lucifer, in the lore... is the reality filter, thus angel of the dawn, the one who puts the souls in the bodies or possibly is the in/out filter point. same-same.

Thus, not a god in the religious context.... but a filter that intense, that overbearing...that difficult to understand.... could easily be mistaken for being one.

IF..as is surmised, this place is made out of information, made up of the genesis points of life as energy, becoming self aware, then... is this filter point, this energetic exchange point, as a knot of energy that is self held, a consciousness, a life? thus the idea of the doorway as Lucifer, or the lightbringer/lightbearer. From our stand point (whatever the hell that is), possibly being a bit naughty. Remember or understand that emotion, as we know it and experience it... is a residual component of this place, a filter, a manipulable one.... but only in this place, this earth, this specific human context.


Thus:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=BGi6Q1pNbS0

[aranuk]

Hi Carmody, you say here : "The ascendant is the part where the soul enters the body (and possibly the leaving/combining/flow point) and is the position of the sun on the horizon, when the person is born, wherever (on the planet) that may be."
I am a wee bit confused by what you say here. As far as I am concerned and most other astrologers that is not a normal description of the Ascendant. The Ascendant as I'm sure you know well, is the degree of what Zodiacal sign is on the Eastern horizon the second we are born or take our first breath independently of our mother. The position of the Sun can be in any of the 360 degrees and in any of the 12 signs. The Ascendant is NOT the position of the sun on the horizon. Can you clear this up please.

Stan

[Agape]

Posted by aranuk (here)
Hi Carmody, you say here : "The ascendant is the part where the soul enters the body (and possibly the leaving/combining/flow point) and is the position of the sun on the horizon, when the person is born, wherever (on the planet) that may be."
I am a wee bit confused by what you say here. As far as I am concerned and most other astrologers that is not a normal description of the Ascendant. The Ascendant as I'm sure you know well, is the degree of what Zodiacal sign is on the Eastern horizon the second we are born or take our first breath independently of our mother. The position of the Sun can be in any of the 360 degrees and in any of the 12 signs. The Ascendant is NOT the position of the sun on the horizon. Can you clear this up please.

Stan

See I was ''born'' on cusp of Libra/Scorpio , October 23 ( that's for the Sun ascendant ) early morning around sunrise , with ascendant about 23 degrees to Scorpio ,
it means that Sun was merely 23 degrees above horizon at that time ,
for simple explanation.


Wait for Carmody , I suggest

[East Sun]

The first Jesuit 'pope' or the last pope or not the pope at all? I'll have to check the exact words of Saint Malachi (sp) about the number of the last pope. How many popes were prophesied to be?

Anyway I suspect that this Francis is not the pope at all. I suspect Jesuits from the get-go. But that's me. Decide for your self.
As in all organizations there are the ones that never know what's going on while the person next to them does. That makes the duped ones innocent of blame.
It's the same way at every level.

[aranuk]

Hi Agape, thank you for your comments. I have been an astrologer for 26 years. What do you mean your Sun Ascendant? Can you explain please?

Stan

[Agape]

Posted by aranuk (here)
Hi Agape, thank you for your comments. I have been an astrologer for 26 years. What do you mean your Sun Ascendant? Can you explain please?

Stan

I've PMed you . However , ''Sun ascendant'' or 'Moon ascendant'' , the same goes for the rest of planets present in your natal chart are only calculated ( usually ) in Indian astrology ,
where from independent 12 houses are also drawn for each of these planets then compared ,
many charts for different purposes ,

they're sort of more relativistic in their maths, they'd do 12 or more different charts for one person , like slides , then compare them together .


But if I'm correct your 'birth ascendant' is a correlation between sidereal time and angular distance between your position and Sun degree on the ecliptics ,
depending on what kind of model ( heliocentric or .. ) you use anyway .

Throw the

[aranuk]

I'm not familiar with indian or Vedic Astrology. There are numerous texts to read in the western tradition for example. I know many Indian astrologers who use our western approach but there are few astrologers in Europe who use Vedic.

Stan

[Mike Gorman]

Wittgenstein famously said: All mistakes of thinking, are mistakes of language. This thread is a classic example of this. The latin sung in this service has nothing to do with 'The Devil'. Regardless of your position in relation to the Catholic church in the Vatican being corrupt, even Satanic according to Malachi Martin (of the Devil, worshiping that old Nick) the service is innocent of all charges. The Bible, also regardless of your personal beliefs, is a work of human beings - it is a collection of mythologies and accounts set down by men. You can call it the 'word of God' if you like, but this is neither provable nor reasonable - it is a book, written by human hands, stories. Is it social history? I don't think it even reaches that category. This fundamentalist 'end times' stuff is becoming all too prominent - people who find it difficult to think for themselves are being carried along on this like a religious lynch mob; the herd mentality is creeping back.

[ulli]

I

Posted by aranuk (here)
Hi Carmody, you say here : "The ascendant is the part where the soul enters the body (and possibly the leaving/combining/flow point) and is the position of the sun on the horizon, when the person is born, wherever (on the planet) that may be."
I am a wee bit confused by what you say here. As far as I am concerned and most other astrologers that is not a normal description of the Ascendant. The Ascendant as I'm sure you know well, is the degree of what Zodiacal sign is on the Eastern horizon the second we are born or take our first breath independently of our mother. The position of the Sun can be in any of the 360 degrees and in any of the 12 signs. The Ascendant is NOT the position of the sun on the horizon. Can you clear this up please.

Stan

I agree with you, Stan.
If a person were born at midday the sun would then be overhead, not on the ascendant, which is the eastern horizon.

If at that moment the planet Uranus were to appear on the eastern horizon, in the sign of Virgo, that would then be the dominant influence of the personality and even physical appearance, and not the sun.

Hence people who are born at midday with the sun in the sign of Gemini, might still look and behave like Aquarians, due to the influence of Uranus on the Ascendant, Uranus being the ruling planet of the sign of Aquarius.

But the sun sign of Gemini would express itself more in the person's actions, and their need to communicate.
Soul, spirit, personality and character...all have their specific places in a person's being.

With the soul being the most impossible to fathom.

[Michel Leclerc]

Thanks Kryztian, for bringing dictionary, grammar, historical fact and wisdom into the debate.

Michel

[Agape]

Posted by aranuk (here)
I'm not familiar with indian or Vedic Astrology. There are numerous texts to read in the western tradition for example. I know many Indian astrologers who use our western approach but there are few astrologers in Europe who use Vedic.

Stan

Both systems have the same foundation as far as my observation goes that can be traced back to ancient Egypt ..

they evolved in two separate branches of the same tree .

[Kryztian]

Posted by Michel Leclerc (here)
Thanks Kryztian, for bringing dictionary, grammar, historical fact and wisdom into the debate.
Michel

Thanks Michel, nice to know that there is at least one other person on Avalon who also values those things!