Illuminati Smackdown - Plato vs. Carlos Casteneda

[SeymourVandal]

You are chained up in a cave
With memories you couldn't save
Forgot your life before the fall
Your dirty meat just darkens wall
Source of roar deep in a hole
Wolf not sure you bear a soul

- Seymour Vandal

Plato may have written other stuff besides his 'cave allegory', but I've never read it. Heck, I've never even read that, officially. It forms the bulk of his myth and came to me second-hand or, forty-thousandth hand or whatever. Anyway, it goes something like my poem. Here it is again, but in English:

According to Plato, mankind's current situation - that which we so delicately refer to as 'The Human Condition', may be explained thusly:

We are like slaves, chained up in a dark hole. We can only look straight ahead - at a wall upon which shadows are moving (Turn off your cellphone - I'm gonna go buy some popcorn - mmmkay I'm back). Plato says we are chained - that's why we don't know anything about the wall, the shadows, whatever makes them move, and maybe the light that drives them. Then, he goes into this whole thing about what each of them might represent - the shadows, the wall, etc. None of it makes any sense to anybody, but it has generated a ton of money in college tuition fees over the years.

Speaking of college, Carlos wrote his first book - a best-seller - as his own anthropology dissertation. Pretty cool, eh? By the way - you guys know that you need advice from your professors before selecting a dissertation subject, right? Carlos didn't just decide all by himself to spend his summer in Mexico trying to score hallucinogens - he needed prior approval, and that part of his story is extremely shady. With that in mind - where do you think all those university heavyweights spend their Thursday nights? 

Carlos' first book was mainly about psychedelic drugs, but he loosened up after that. He wove a spiritual dynasty supposedly based on ancient shamanic memories and legends that go back thousands of years. It reads like....Dr. Seuss teaching string theory to a toddler... while lost in the desert on acid. A dozen books later, he still doesn't make much sense.

There are elements of Castenada's myths that are observable in the real world - and that's why I chose to pair him with Plato. Plato's meaner, bigger and stronger - but his theories only apply to our imaginations. Earth's animals are very real so, we should expect a big surprise from the younger, seemingly-alternative Castaneda.

As I recall, Plato theorizes about the shadows on his imaginary wall - what might be making them move and so forth. In turn, we innocently turn our heads (as far as we can) in search of some as-yet-undiscovered source of power. I honestly don't remember all of Plato's ideas because they are useless to my understanding of the world. All we need to remember is that we, in our dirty little cave, have light upon our back reflecting some weird shadows onto the wall in front of us. Enter 'The Crow'.

Before anybody objects - yes - it's totally within the Smackdown rules for Castaneda to bring Don Juan's 'spirit animal' into the ring. Just watch what this little bird can do!

You see, we were supposed to imagine ourselves as 'The Crow' within Castaneda's mythos. We're not supposed to identify with Carlos' own person while reading his stories - that's why he portrayed himself so poorly, and showed Don Juan as being too distant for anybody to identify with at all.

Airborne crows have the exact same perspective as the slaves in Plato's cave allegory - light upon our back and shadows moving in front of us. The crow views the ground while flying - that's the scene to imagine - an airborne crow viewing her own shadow moving across Earth's face.

When considered in this light - both myths embody exactly the same viewing perspective - that's why they were both selected to be parts of our collective culture, and that's why they're getting Vandalized together.

Here's the truth about 'spirit animals' or 'familiars' or whatever - many iconic animals like the crow, the lion, the tiger, etc. bear very specific attributes. Elephants are known to remember, snakes are known to be invisible and silent, and lions are known to be assholes. We don't literally transform our personal flesh into that of the beast when performing 'magic' - we merely embody those attributes specific to our chosen animal.

Maybe in the old days we used to follow and observe animals in Nature so we could see how they behaved. We're talking about subtelties here - maybe even just as a matter of symbology. After all - you have to choose something for your family crest, right?

The crow is very close to me, but it has nothing to do with Castanada. However, I do understand why he chose the crow out of all the other birds. The crow is not just a bird - the crow is a messenger between worlds. There's a big, fat one making a hell of a racket outside my porch as I'm writing this (swear to god), but there was another event just before the SuperSolstice of 2014 that opened my eyes forever.

While visiting a local aunt, I noticed a plastic crow on her dining room table. It was on a fruit basket or something, so I picked it up and put it on my shoulder to entertain my niece. Somehow or other, the wire feet of this fake animal instantly got stuck to my sweater, so I made a joke about it 'obviously wanting to stay' and left it there for several hours. 

I left and spent the afternoon playing with several children, and we never had to re-attach or even re-position the crow on my shoulder. It remained fixed while driving, walking and playing. Some of the kids even took pictures of me with the crow still clinging to my shoulder. The picture below is one of them.

While those plastic eyes watched over the children laughing and taking pictures, my aunt's son - my seemingly healthy thirty-five year-old cousin - my niece's own father - was dying from acute kidney failure in an ER a thousand miles away - and none of us had any idea what was happening. I didn't find out until later, and it wasn't until days later - while viewing the pictures on my camera through tears, that I remembered the timing of the whole event. That's when I realized the crow was with us the whole time, and just how important symbols truly are to our everyday reality.

To a degree, we can discover truth just by gazing into our collective media. This IPad is truly 'a magic lamp' and everything you want to know about Earth's great animals is available by casting the right spells upon Google. Unfortunately, it can't or won't reveal the secret to Plato's ancient riddle - so I asked the crow, and she explained it like this:



1) We (the crow and the slaves) cannot truly 'see' ourselves while we're in this form. Period. This is the 'control system' we can feel, but can't describe. It's not really a control system per se, it's just the way our eyes work. Eyes are windows to the soul, and others take advantage of these facts. Forget being a slave for now. Imagine you're an airborne crow - your shadow is all you'll ever see of yourself, and when you see it - you'll probably have no idea what you're looking at.

2) The shadow must fall upon something - Here is the first opportunity for manipulation of our reflection. Call it media if you like - Earth for the crow - silver for the slaves. It may not be malevolent- just imperfect - as all mirrors are. If we pay attention to each other and to the Earth - we'll recognize anything else for what it is. Our whole problem is that our eyes are naturally attracted to certain things, so we're easily distracted and confused.

3) The shadow has the effect of a mirror upon our eyes and therefore our souls, but that's beyond the scope of this article. Suffice to say, mirrors 'give pause' and create a second opportunity for manipulation while we're engaged in the innocent, divine act of self-reflection.  Even if the medium reflects a true likeness - the viewer can't just explain what is seen, not even to ourselves - we have to ask another soul. Here's a third opportunity for manipulation, and that's more than enough for me.

'Deer caught in bright headlights' is a true allegory of 'The Human Condition' - especially if the light only appears to move, but never really does. What if it's not even a light at all? What if it's just a mirror? What if it's just a mirror - and we're projecting our own Light? How could we possibly understand such an experience, my dear?*

Please go watch a modern Universal Pictures movie right now. It doesn't matter which one because you only need to watch the first few seconds. Pay attention to the studio tag - the one with the 'golden dawn', 'sunrise' or 'eastern light' that never really happens. 

Take an Earthly viewing perspective upon the Western Hemisphere and look for the Light. Once you remember what true Light is, try to discern what's really being shown to you. Eventually, you'll be able to see it. Then come talk to me about 'Illumination'.

[partsdale]

Not sure if I really 'got it', but I really enjoyed reading that. Thanks

[Flash]

Posted by partsdale (here)
Not sure if I really 'got it', but I really enjoyed reading that. Thanks

I think I got it..... hum... which may mean I have not.

I enjoyed reading it. My inner comments while reading: here another very bright and developed avalonian writing a great piece.

[Buzzie]

I wish I could say I get it but I don't

[Wookie]

To me it seems like the op is the writing on the shadow covered wall. Second hand and full of the posters personal thought. Yet the truth trying to be presented comes close to the mark. I believe its about ones forced or learned perspective and being able to spot and then alter said perspective. From my perspective the foundation is crumbling yet the building still stands. While I'm interested in the subject, the ad hoc way in witch both Plato and Castenedia are presented seem to diminish the very real value of the OP, for me.

Peaceful Journeys Wookie

[East Sun]

I read some Casteneda, but I only got a vague impression of what he was about.

[boutreality]

I read almost all of Castaneda's books and a few key works by Plato. Maybe Castaneda compiled thoughts and themes from disparate traditions and, mixing it in with the apparent yet illusory freedom that using psychedelics promised, which very much kept with the zeitgeist of that time, formulated from these a narrative. Or, maybe he recorded his actual experiences with and actual living Yaqui Indian sorcerer. It is not until his later books that any of his works make usable sense and none of those works focus on the use of psychedelics. Castaneda as a man had some rather specious claims about his conduct and apparent dichotomies laid at his feet which he never adequately addressed. Looking at the work, there is a value in it. Even if its just universals couched in a not so usual paradigm.

How, over twelve books of work, a reader comes away with "we're meant to identify with the crow" is beyond me, but to each their own. I have and use an animal totem, I have experienced myself as the luminous oblong sphere described in his works. However both of these came to me after years of painstakingly dedicated practice of dietary, meditative and bodily discipline. Not through using drugs. Actually, I practice the 'macrocosmic orbit' 'a pattern of inner energy circulation, a work that requires no internal dialogue, intense inner silence and calm, all things Castaneda espouses as requisites to become a man of knowledge. I wasn't looking to see myself as the oblong sphere, but one day during a bodily discipline I felt it, 'checked it out' in meditation, experienced it, and now I work with it when I can accomplish it, relying first on circulating energy physically through my physical being.

Psychedelics (mushrooms mainly) are explained as needed in the first three books, and mentioned sparingly after that, '-needed' because his sensory faculties had to be arrested and reconstituted in order to afford him the ability to process his environment and own inner being outside the framework of modern consensual reality. And like I said, mentioning their use certainly did not deter his growing fan base, given what was going on at the time these books were written. I used psychedelics in my younger years, always removed from society and always with the intention of connecting with myself and nature. Nothing that came from those experiences led me into the transformative insights I found once I left all consciousness altering substances behind and really hunkered down on this spiritual path. Undoubtedly, all can be gained without their use, however I used them and can't say I would have ended up being the person I am now without them.

In the allegory of the cave, Plato offered a strong framework for interpreting one's self and how that self experiences the environment; it's a blueprint for certain forms of psychoanalytic theory. He applied this insight and extrapolated it into what he felt would be needed to make an upstanding society in the Republic. This may be my own inner being coloring my interpretation, but in Castaneda's later works, "Fire from Within" and after, the author may be offering contrition for the misguidance he gave his readers in his earlier works. He felt psychedelics were important for his journey, to a degree they were in mine. There is no way to responsibly prescribe their use for anyone else, especially not in a work meant for a general audience, and that is that.

So far as your plastic crow instance summing up the work above, which I do appreciate as its own stance and interpretation of the world and its ways, I believe you are drawing upon the archetypal synchronicity of the situation and how it fits into your realization. I agree that some aspects of tech and the availability of information the internet provides are miraculous. What is irreducible though, is the discrerning factor: how the mind which makes use of these tools and insights is trained and empowered, or conditioned and enslaved.

[SeymourVandal]

Posted by boutreality (here)
I read almost all of Castaneda's books and a few key works by Plato. Maybe Castaneda compiled thoughts and themes from disparate traditions and, mixing it in with the apparent yet illusory freedom that using psychedelics promised, which very much kept with the zeitgeist of that time, formulated from these a narrative. Or, maybe he recorded his actual experiences with and actual living Yaqui Indian sorcerer. It is not until his later books that any of his works make usable sense and none of those works focus on the use of psychedelics. Castaneda as a man had some rather specious claims about his conduct and apparent dichotomies laid at his feet which he never adequately addressed. Looking at the work, there is a value in it. Even if its just universals couched in a not so usual paradigm.

How, over twelve books of work, a reader comes away with "we're meant to identify with the crow" is beyond me, but to each their own. I have and use an animal totem, I have experienced myself as the luminous oblong sphere described in his works. However both of these came to me after years of painstakingly dedicated practice of dietary, meditative and bodily discipline. Not through using drugs. Actually, I practice the 'macrocosmic orbit' 'a pattern of inner energy circulation, a work that requires no internal dialogue, intense inner silence and calm, all things Castaneda espouses as requisites to become a man of knowledge. I wasn't looking to see myself as the oblong sphere, but one day during a bodily discipline I felt it, 'checked it out' in meditation, experienced it, and now I work with it when I can accomplish it, relying first on circulating energy physically through my physical being.

Psychedelics (mushrooms mainly) are explained as needed in the first three books, and mentioned sparingly after that, '-needed' because his sensory faculties had to be arrested and reconstituted in order to afford him the ability to process his environment and own inner being outside the framework of modern consensual reality. And like I said, mentioning their use certainly did not deter his growing fan base, given what was going on at the time these books were written. I used psychedelics in my younger years, always removed from society and always with the intention of connecting with myself and nature. Nothing that came from those experiences led me into the transformative insights I found once I left all consciousness altering substances behind and really hunkered down on this spiritual path. Undoubtedly, all can be gained without their use, however I used them and can't say I would have ended up being the person I am now without them.

In the allegory of the cave, Plato offered a strong framework for interpreting one's self and how that self experiences the environment; it's a blueprint for certain forms of psychoanalytic theory. He applied this insight and extrapolated it into what he felt would be needed to make an upstanding society in the Republic. This may be my own inner being coloring my interpretation, but in Castaneda's later works, "Fire from Within" and after, the author may be offering contrition for the misguidance he gave his readers in his earlier works. He felt psychedelics were important for his journey, to a degree they were in mine. There is no way to responsibly prescribe their use for anyone else, especially not in a work meant for a general audience, and that is that.

So far as your plastic crow instance summing up the work above, which I do appreciate as its own stance and interpretation of the world and its ways, I believe you are drawing upon the archetypal synchronicity of the situation and how it fits into your realization. I agree that some aspects of tech and the availability of information the internet provides are miraculous. What is irreducible though, is the discrerning factor: how the mind which makes use of these tools and insights is trained and empowered, or conditioned and enslaved.

Is the 'mind', that which we so tediously construct out of books like these, necessary for observation?

[SeymourVandal]

Posted by East Sun (here)
I read some Casteneda, but I only got a vague impression of what he was about.

You're only supposed to get a vague impression - that's my point. There's something he and all the others omit from their explanations of the world. Did anybody bother to stand on the Western Hemisphere (during the Universal trailer tag) and see what true Light is?
Ps - awesome sig line!

[SeymourVandal]

Posted by Wookie (here)
To me it seems like the op is the writing on the shadow covered wall. Second hand and full of the posters personal thought. Yet the truth trying to be presented comes close to the mark. I believe its about ones forced or learned perspective and being able to spot and then alter said perspective. From my perspective the foundation is crumbling yet the building still stands. While I'm interested in the subject, the ad hoc way in witch both Plato and Castenedia are presented seem to diminish the very real value of the OP, for me.

Peaceful Journeys Wookie

Thank you, wookie. I hope you didn't hold back anything. Those were really good points of view and I'm grateful for you expressing them so well. I took this perspective for a reason, and the body of my work is and will stay entirely congruent. I have something important to say, and it took me a year to get to this point. What I'm not going to do, is get into the ring with scholars, and I'll tell you why. Who do you think is responsible for our crumbling foundations? We didn't build anything - we inherited this mess from the past. They made the rules, and they run the game. How's that working out for us?

The word 'scholar' or 'school' comes from the Latin 'scolex' which means worm or snake. The word 'doctor' or 'indoctrinate' literally means 'told what to believe'. What does the word 'research' mean? To search again? Why search again? Why not just 'search'?

My favorite, though is the word 'paragraph' which means 'half-depicted'. I have a whole chapter on our half-depicted reality, and it's very concrete compared to this stuff. The whole reason I wrote this was for feedback like this from people like you.

Please keep it coming!

[SeymourVandal]

Posted by boutreality (here)
I read almost all of Castaneda's books and a few key works by Plato. Maybe Castaneda compiled thoughts and themes from disparate traditions and, mixing it in with the apparent yet illusory freedom that using psychedelics promised, which very much kept with the zeitgeist of that time, formulated from these a narrative. Or, maybe he recorded his actual experiences with and actual living Yaqui Indian sorcerer. It is not until his later books that any of his works make usable sense and none of those works focus on the use of psychedelics. Castaneda as a man had some rather specious claims about his conduct and apparent dichotomies laid at his feet which he never adequately addressed. Looking at the work, there is a value in it. Even if its just universals couched in a not so usual paradigm.

How, over twelve books of work, a reader comes away with "we're meant to identify with the crow" is beyond me, but to each their own. I have and use an animal totem, I have experienced myself as the luminous oblong sphere described in his works. However both of these came to me after years of painstakingly dedicated practice of dietary, meditative and bodily discipline. Not through using drugs. Actually, I practice the 'macrocosmic orbit' 'a pattern of inner energy circulation, a work that requires no internal dialogue, intense inner silence and calm, all things Castaneda espouses as requisites to become a man of knowledge. I wasn't looking to see myself as the oblong sphere, but one day during a bodily discipline I felt it, 'checked it out' in meditation, experienced it, and now I work with it when I can accomplish it, relying first on circulating energy physically through my physical being.

Psychedelics (mushrooms mainly) are explained as needed in the first three books, and mentioned sparingly after that, '-needed' because his sensory faculties had to be arrested and reconstituted in order to afford him the ability to process his environment and own inner being outside the framework of modern consensual reality. And like I said, mentioning their use certainly did not deter his growing fan base, given what was going on at the time these books were written. I used psychedelics in my younger years, always removed from society and always with the intention of connecting with myself and nature. Nothing that came from those experiences led me into the transformative insights I found once I left all consciousness altering substances behind and really hunkered down on this spiritual path. Undoubtedly, all can be gained without their use, however I used them and can't say I would have ended up being the person I am now without them.

In the allegory of the cave, Plato offered a strong framework for interpreting one's self and how that self experiences the environment; it's a blueprint for certain forms of psychoanalytic theory. He applied this insight and extrapolated it into what he felt would be needed to make an upstanding society in the Republic. This may be my own inner being coloring my interpretation, but in Castaneda's later works, "Fire from Within" and after, the author may be offering contrition for the misguidance he gave his readers in his earlier works. He felt psychedelics were important for his journey, to a degree they were in mine. There is no way to responsibly prescribe their use for anyone else, especially not in a work meant for a general audience, and that is that.

So far as your plastic crow instance summing up the work above, which I do appreciate as its own stance and interpretation of the world and its ways, I believe you are drawing upon the archetypal synchronicity of the situation and how it fits into your realization. I agree that some aspects of tech and the availability of information the internet provides are miraculous. What is irreducible though, is the discrerning factor: how the mind which makes use of these tools and insights is trained and empowered, or conditioned and enslaved.

Thanks for such an excellent reply. I'd ask you to explain how the mushrooms helped, but I know that's asking a lot. I would like to know, though.

More importantly, can you tell me what true light is?

[SeymourVandal]

Posted by Flash (here)

Posted by partsdale (here)
Not sure if I really 'got it', but I really enjoyed reading that. Thanks

I think I got it..... hum... which may mean I have not.

I enjoyed reading it. My inner comments while reading: here another very bright and developed avalonian writing a great piece.

Did anybody watch the universal trailer? Or do I have to make a friggin animation?

[Aspen]

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=0-4uSBih7Ng

Which of the Universal Pictures logo reel are you talking about? Is it the one where all the cities glow or the one where there is a bright light behind the earth? This video shows several they have used. Please let us know which on of these it is you are referring to in regards to "the light" Maybe tell us where it is on this short video please?

You are a great writer and it was entertaining. I am still thinking about it. I am 5thinking that humans are the true source of the light and we are unaware of that fact. I wonder if we (humanity) can turn the tables and use the light within us to play some type of trick on those who enslave us so that we free ourselves?

I was inspired by this film that talks about the domino effect produced by ever larger dominoes. Maybe humans have powers that can transform our future and cause a much faster faster evolution . . . .it relates to the idea of the "Tipping point" I am still thinking about what you say about the eyes and how they are key to all this. I think that we can develop intuitive abilities to see much more than we currently do. For example, I do pay attention to the wildlife around here and what they might be telling me. Synchronistic events if paid attention to are another way of "seeing."

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=y97rBdSYbkg

Cowboys and Aliens is a more recent Universal Pictures movie, is this the logo you are talking about? The light is all coming from the continents where people live (there is DreamWorks and another logo in there too, quite interesting how these are related to imagination and dreams).

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=DjEILaCiZ8I

Hope this helps others make sense of your OP!

[SeymourVandal]

Posted by Aspen (here)

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=0-4uSBih7Ng

Which of the Universal Pictures logo reel are you talking about? Is it the one where all the cities glow or the one where there is a bright light behind the earth? This video shows several they have used. Please let us know which on of these it is you are referring to in regards to "the light" Maybe tell us where it is on this short video please?

You are a great writer and it was entertaining. I am still thinking about it. I am 5thinking that humans are the true source of the light and we are unaware of that fact. I wonder if we (humanity) can turn the tables and use the light within us to play some type of trick on those who enslave us so that we free ourselves?

I was inspired by this film that talks about the domino effect produced by ever larger dominoes. Maybe humans have powers that can transform our future and cause a much faster faster evolution . . . .it relates to the idea of the "Tipping point" I am still thinking about what you say about the eyes and how they are key to all this. I think that we can develop intuitive abilities to see much more than we currently do. For example, I do pay attention to the wildlife around here and what they might be telling me. Synchronistic events if paid attention to are another way of "seeing."

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=y97rBdSYbkg

Cowboys and Aliens is a more recent Universal Pictures movie, is this the logo you are talking about? The light is all coming from the continents where people live (there is DreamWorks and another logo in there too, quite interesting how these are related to imagination and dreams).

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=DjEILaCiZ8I

Hope this helps others make sense of your OP!

You're so very kind to help this way - it makes me feel guilty for not including it within the OP! I'll make a short animation that can be run inside Avalon's forum. (I hate outside links) Then I'll basically repeat what you said above - that we are Light, and that we never get a true reflection of ourselves back from the myths we 'identify' with. I love your reference to dreams! They don't call it 'Dreamworks' for nothing...don't worry...we're going to Vandalize their logo, too!

I'm not being a tease, Aspen - this stuff isn't written yet. I need feedback like this to help me focus my thoughts. Plus, I need to,hire an animator so...please bear with me

[boutreality]

To SeymourVandal:
By definition of observation, mind is not necessary. Mind isn't even necessary for knowledge. Conceptualizations are useful for sharing ideas and helping others understand what we wish to communicate. Mind is to be shut up and moved beyond to really get at knowledge, which I feel is best defined as: 'direct, objective observation of space moving as time.' Tarthang Tulku wrote an excellent book pointing toward that definition called Time, Space, and Knowledge. How can a subjective mind make objective observation? By shutting the hell up!

The 'thing which seeks to control us/ inhibit us realizing our potential' -to paraphrase a snippet of your thread starter post- can most certainly be apprehended, but not by mind. Omniverse has contributed many works toward understanding this in his threads. I have a slightly and at times drastically different slant on these controlling mechanisms which I gave an overview of in a couple of threads a while ago. This site has a wonderful search engine if you'd like to check these out.

Reactive, conditioned, unaware mind is detrimental, yet even an 'aware' mind must be moved beyond if we are to see meaningful growth. I made a picture story about this general concept on a blog:
http://www.joshbloecker.tumblr.com

Though I drew them all, I'm not a fan of the first pic, (just got sick of making pictures but wanted to post something with the words.) but every other one is all right. The picture story is called "Life and Death in the Valley of Dreams and Nightmares" and is the last ten pictures if my memory serves. You might enjoy this method of deploying a concept.

To your second inquiry:
Psychedelics shut off ego centers of the brain, allowing one to experience the processes of their own brain, senses and physiology without straining these through an ego filter. I never really thought of it that way until I watched "Neurons to Nirvana" a documentary about the possible benefits of psychedelic use. It was on Netflix about a year ago. It does document much of its claims as neuroscience research.
Real benefits from like experiences, in my view, come from much sober introspection. And all can eventually be attained through meditation alone.

As to 'true light,' we have a sun! The oblong sphere I suddenly knew myself to be, as I mentioned in my first reply, I only know it in those fleeting instances I've had thus far and I make a specific use of those times, anyway, it certainly was glowing intensely.

[Wookie]

Just like the crumbling foundation, we inherit a set perspective. Threw "education" and life experiences our perspective becomes somewhat rigid and fixed. At a young age the only limits are those taught to us. Think about perspective in the context of the fable of "The Oak and the Reed" Casteneda coming from an "educated" back ground is rooted in his beliefs and rigid. Don Juan uses psychedelics to transform Castendas' perspective into that of a reed, able to bend and move with the environment. To change ones perspective is not unlike the uprooting of an ancient oak. On LSD as a teenager I learnt all the secrets of the universe, I also convinced myself to forget it all in order to learn it the hard way. But the experience has been a motivation for seeking knowledge. I believe I am incarnate to learn, not have a drug tell me the "truth", but for some with out the aid of a substance or "education" bending in the wind is impossible. Plato and Casteneda are two teachers that helped me transform from an oak to a reed. I have a BFA (Bachelor of **** All) in fine art and agree with much of what you have to say about the "education" establishment, however the foundation, crumbling as it is, should not be brushed off so flippantly. Know your: enemy, limits, crutches, boundaries, In order to surpass them and grow. If one never learns why the foundation is failing one will never reinvent a better one.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=LTWwY8Ok5I0

Peaceful Journeys Wookie

[SeymourVandal]

To Boutreality;

Your tumbler wouldn't work in my chrome/iOS browser so, I'll have to check,that out later from my desk. Thank you for sharing it! Your comments cause me a great deal of reflection and I'm tempted to reply point by point but, I'm not here for that - it never works, anyway. If it did - 'we' would have figured this stuff out long ago, don't you think? I'm here to,tell you that somebody else already has, and that which we call knowledge mostly seems to obscure our vision.

We talk about trains of thought and lines of intention, but then we're shown the oroboros and made to believe self-consumption is normal by the implication of the circle. I believe that eventually, I should be able to show that life itself is linear - not circular. There is a 'circle' within our reality, but it's not supposed to be there. Don Juan referred to it as 'a sickening undulation', and I'm going to start a thread called 'Castenada's Cliff Notes' just so you and I and others can discuss that myth specifically from a new point of view, ok? I'd like some opinions on a few theories related to very specific ideas within Carlos' books.

I've been thinking about bubbles recently because they're an apt metaphor which is never, ever used within our media. They emerge as singularities from one single whole, they're vessels, they're temporary and they're not really different at all from the whole from which they emerged. Then it dawned on me - the reason they never show us bubbles is because bubbles are naturally attracted to each other and they group together in a way that's unpredictable.

I have a new point of view for you to consider, and I'm interested in testing it against the established myth, embodied within yourself and others. I'm interested in your words - not the conclusions of others. I must confess that I'm reflexively repulsed by the act of merely quoting 'researched' words and ideas. Conclusions are an end in themselves, and that's not real thinking - it's just a reflection of a reflection.

[SeymourVandal]

Wookie:

Well put my brother. I have yet to check out your creative work, but I definitely will. My own experience with psychedelics was the exact opposite of yours. Sure, it loosened up my perspective but I had no clue what I was experiencing. Please search YouTube for "drinking out of cups - original". That was me in the closet. (not that particular closet)

You guys keep hitting me with details about Plato and it's tempting me to go deeper, but I have a broad perspective to cover. The cave allegory leaves me powerless, that's all I want to know at this point. I read a book by James Oroc, one of the founders of the Burning Man Festival. The book itself, the way 5-meo is portrayed, the date and context within which the book was released, and the subsequent classification of DMT bearing plants as controlled substances are all entirely suspect. I knew this self-proclaimed 'rebel' had golden roots deep into our past, and you guys shed some light on that by bringing the burning man back home to Plato's cave.

All these myths are beyond reach of the everyday person, but their effects certainly aren't. I read Carlos twenty years ago and kinda knew I was being 'influenced' but the only thing I consciously remembered was 'tread lightly'. Last year I opened up a few of his books and started looking for patterns. I'll start a thread just for these very specific subjects and look forward to hearing from you. Thanks again!

[boutreality]

So far as ' the crumbling foundations of knowledge.' -As it is presented to us by our institutions. Have you considered that our 'civilized world's educational paradigm revolves around staring out with teaching letters; numbers; words; arithmetic; language and more advanced maths as ways to conceptualize the world around us. From here we go into broader pictures of the world using these languages then consider 'advanced learning' to basically be specializing, growing and yet and narrowing down our knowledge set by confining it to one or two subject or areas of expertise. The world marketplace and 'ways to make a life,' in general, reward this model.

Because of this many of us miss altogether a chance to gain a comprehensive view of our world and its intricacies that may be had were we to incorporate many different paths of inquiry into our reasoning and searching to solve the problems we face as a planet. A terrific book that spelled this out in much more detail than I will go into here is "Consilience -the Unity of Knowledge" by Edward O. Wilson. It is a purely academic approach. I remember at the time I thought it an important work in that it is taking an 'acceptable' tact to potentially prove a practical precept of collective consciousness. Of course I was getting high (pot) a lot back then and it didn't occur to me that simply by the fact we are all here sharing and contributing to this sentient experience, the collective is proven, at least in precept.

Eventually I learned that by shutting up my mind things come together to form a foundation for a unified perspective and enables one, by insisting on continual internal shutting up, to access a sort of knowledge that cannot be put into words. I've run into those that take this at face value and believe I am encouraging willful ignorance or stupidity and choosing that instead of active dynamic intelligence. What to say to those? How can one apply a breadth of knowledge properly, and thereby render it wisdom, without giving it time to percolate within? I laugh and am perplexed, overjoyed and grounded. What a life!

And, to honor the poet's soul that lives and thrives in me and clearly in Seymour as it does in everyone, somewhere, I'll end with a quote just the best damn poem I think William Carlos Williams ever wrote "The Logic of Modern Poetry" (In a book called "The Embodiment of Knowledge")

"...Before education (which is in itself a preliminary view) we require a view of knowledge which is at the same time comprehensive, obvious and simple. Something an infant might grasp, a thing now lacking...."

[SeymourVandal]

'Boutreality - do you know I get 'fighting bout' or 'fighting reality' from that every time I read it? How's that for a poet's soul? I'll send you a link to some published stuff.

The point of this post, the point of 'the crow' as a messenger among our collective past, is quite simply that we cannot 'see' or 'know' ourselves. We are NOT the shadow - we are the divine soul which creates it. If we look at our shadow, thinking it's really us, we're like dear caught in bright headlights - or an airborne crow so distracted that she stares at her own shadow or reflection (they're the same thing) while cruising above the Earth. What will happen to her?

Nobody asked about the chains in Plato's cave. Are chains natural? No, they are not. Therefore they have a purpose. That makes the chains a Machine. You're actually looking at them right now, fellow cave-dweller. These black passages - these straight black lines of words are not a part of nature, either. The only purpose for straight black lines that these eyes can find in Nature is eyelashes. There's a literary relationship between eyelashes and that age-old tool of oppression - the whip. The words they gave us will never allow us to see ourselves, each other or the world around us.

If we seek to judge ourselves in anyway, we need two things, both of which are unnatural - a ruler and a mirror. The ruler is a set of standards and the mirror is used for self-reflection against said standards. If the mirror's twisted (they all are) and /or the ruler is corrupt - where does that leave us?

Did you see the pun? Ruler as a tool of measure, or ruler as a king or tyrant? They mean the same thing - inside our minds. That's one way 'they' confuse us - by messing with the pronunciation and meaning of words. This is real black magic because words control how we see the world. Spells control how we see the world.

I was just walking down the street with my aging Bassett Hound. There were a lot of kids walking past, and they always stop to pet him and play with his ears. He looked so happy today - wagging his tail so hard I though he was going to turn inside out. As I smiled in appreciation, a thought occurred to me - I cannot 'be happy' - I can only 'see' happy.