Psychological effects of circumcision?

[Carmody]

Posted by Flash (here)
I understand that Jewish boys are circumcised very early after birth and that the traumatism goes straight in the unconscious. What I do not understand is why do Moslems do get cicumscised between the age of 8 and 12 years old? In fact, at the same age about as the Ber Mitzvah in the Jewish religion.

At 8 or 12, the pain inflicted is very conscious and is related to male hood in the boys' mind and from the society around him, becoming a men. And there is a whole party around it at that age. What is the difference in impact then? There is certainly still some kind of disconnect when such pain is inflicted (although nowaday it is all done under analgesics). Could it be similar to cultures where you razor cut your arms or face to be part of the male group for example. However, because it is related to sexual organ, which in turn is related to one of the most powerfull energy center before entering the spiritual realm, what makes it different then, as an impact? And why 12 years of age versus 12 days of age?

Well, both religions treat women like property, in the most basic sense and in history. A sweeping statement, but too much truth in even the mildest sense or context.

The suspicion is, with regard to the stories regarding ENLIL and ENKI. That Enki created the Judaic religion and Enlil took it over, and Enki interjected at times to mediate the interference...thus the two faces of Yahweh. And that The Muslim faith was potentially a sole Enlil creation, is one take.

It creates a continual conscious mind influence into and at/toward sexuality, regarding constant stimulation of the head of the penis.

Imagine the clitoris and vaginal walls of the female being constantly stimulated, and you will get the point.

Thus the wiring is shifted.

Extreme trauma, then constant stimulation. The conscious stimulation slowly goes below the conscious mind (like rings and earrings for girls) but it never disappears, and never stops it's influence, nay, it reinforces and shifts the mind to one possessed and pointed at all times for sexual connotations and polarizations of all thoughts and emotions. But with trauma being the underlying component of origin.

Imagine a 5 year old child having his family slaughtered in front of him. how would this skew his psychology?

how about something that is more potent and permanent? That cannot be buried, as it is constantly stimulated?

The child is raised with this psychology, so it is difficult to understand how it could be any different for their inside view or for any outside observer.

They have been normalized with regard to how they think and see the self, how they integrate, and how others see them, but it still sits there, alive and permanent.

[Flash]

If I understand your point Carmody, this is almost exactly as excision of girls in Africa. Very big painful trauma (from all reports I have read/viewed), leading to decrease trust in adults and mothers forever to have put them through it, and, on the contraty to boy' circumcision, forever absence of easyr sexual stimulation (clitoris instead of vagina). Sexual organs = pain (they often have more pain later on when giving birth or making love, the excision opening up, etc) in their body. They grow into teenager hood like this and never really understand what other women are talking about when telling why they enjoy sex and orgasm. Pain as well for submission...... this makes me sad.

Same thing would happen to boy, but at the reverse, pain and sexual stimulation together. No wonder it is more difficult to understand women needs then.

As for birth traumas and very early ones, I can testify it remains with you your whole life, unannouced, unconscious, unless something trigger the body memory. My twin sister was dying right after I was born (she finally survived) and I took it for myself when the medical staff announced they would have to dismember her to get her out. In me, everything was dying as I was put aside, iin the cold, for the emergency going on. Because I was already born, they were going to save my mom for me, instead of my sister. We had a smart doctors who found an ingenious way to do things and we all survived. But the stress and anxiety about survival remained all my life. No need to say that my sister and I are both very combative in life. I am just truly starting to understand the impact on our psyche at a quite late age.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

The bottom line for me is that circumcision is a traumatic act of sexual mutilation done to beings without their consent. Without consent. Without consent.

[Carmody]

This post was pulled from the astrology thread, even though it covers both. The topic, on second thought, is too hot to pollute the astrology thread.

What it says is very difficult to deal with, although it contains no factual errors, and no errors regarding astrology, or it's history:

Circumcision in the Judaic/Abrahamic system was to be enacted on the male child on the 8th day after birth.

360 degrees in the zodiac, 29.53 days in the lunar cycle, and thus each day is equal to 12.2 degrees of moon position.

8 days times 12.2, gets you to 97.6 degrees change in the moon's position.....when the act is committed to the male child.

This results an a very solid chance of a 'square' aspect of emotional consideration (moon position change of 90 degrees, a square) of immense impact being imparted to the male child.

This, as a form of permanent damage to the developing psyche, and thus the final result as a human being, regarding their emotional actions and reactions.

A powerful square in astrology can be likened to being hit from the side by a truck, a sideways motion.T-boned, they call it, in vehicular accident parlay.

An immensely powerful square, affecting sexuality, kundalini, source dimensional access, and emotional design parameters.... via the damage of the sex organs, is very much a case where one could be seen as having been emotionally t-boned into a shape that never should have existed. A permanent victim-predator reactive emotional fear/pain complex, where one could never properly reach the origins of the problem, as they happen before conscious memory is even possible to form..but emotions are very much alive and beginning to form the mind itself.

BTW, the Judaic ruling caste and class were excellent astrologers, and this never would have escaped their attention.


As for the psychology of the situation, this is speculation based on considerations in psychology and neural development:

As well as an emotional separation from comfort, safety, and mother. This can and does generally stimulate the intellectual design parameters early but it also colors the system of development, in many ways. Those are open to speculation, but may very well be centered around distance from females, distance from deeper emotional states, and a racing mind from the inner turmoil created around considerations of said turmoil. A mind that might be more linear, as well, and less inclined toward the soft arts. Intelligent ---but cunning-linear.

A major point is aspects of 'Stockholm Syndrome' (identifying with your captors) and group mind thinking. Ie, people of like mind being males of like mind and similar damage from their trials and tribulations surround this event. This would be almost subliminal in nature, due to the shaping and placement of the originating event in the given life.

Overall the event and it's effects would vary, but the trail of it would be evident in the overall thrust of the males raised in this given environment.

Basically, all the things I've said previously. The event as a moment of shared trauma...over time...shapes the group.

[christian]

I had played with the thought of getting circumcised since my teenage years. Not because of medical necessity, but because I experienced having a foreskin as a nuisance, an unnecessary separating thingy. It would affect my whole body/energy in a positive way when it would be back for some periods of time. Of course I'd have to pull it back, which would always only last for so long.

Now in the recent months this topic came at me synchronistically through a couple of friends, and after I hesitated for more than 10 years—mostly because of the cost of the operation and because I'd be kind of incapacitated for a while—I was operated exactly a month ago.

Prior to the operation I read a lot about the pro's and con's, I also read this thread with great interest. I agree with the sentiment that it shouldn't be done to children against their will, and I find that idea interesting that it has a special detrimental effect if you do it at the 6th day after birth.

Anyways, my gut feeling was it would be good to do it, and so I went with it. I can honestly say that it was a great decision. I don't feel worse off at all, neither energetically nor in any other way. Quite to the contrary, I feel much more comfortable within myself and when being with a woman.

Of course I can only speak for myself. Maybe this would not be the right thing for you at all. All I'm saying is, it can be a very good thing to do, just listen to your gut feeling as always.

In fact, I had a dream the other night about the operation, was the only dream about it so far. It was like a comic, the doctor had been quite a funny character and I was really amused by that dream, even though he seemed like a crazy professor when he was wielding his scalpel.

During the actual operation I was only partly anesthetized and had been talking with him all the time about all the things that I find interesting in life, he seemed to be quite happy with hearing all these stories. The setting of it all felt very right, the place, the doctor, the surrounding. And one friend who is kind of connected to the synchronicities that led me to this called me right in the second when I got out of the door after the operation, I felt like in a movie... He didn't know I was there, almost nobody did.

[Tangri]

Posted by westhill (here)
I have two sons both are NOT circumcised because I researched it ahead of time. This is unnecessary trauma set deep in the mind where there are no words just experience perpetrated on BABIES, usually without pain killers.
They scream. Let's think which part of your body you would like cut off today. Even back in the late 1980s 50% of parents were deciding not to circumcise theirs sons. Imagine if we decided to start slicing our daughters. I said no!
westhill

You think you are not already making hole on them?

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=yeZ1J2D3JfA

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=7xuMDOVxuhY

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=p3mov1LHYLA

You can't see the forest if you are looking only one tree.

Damage can be curtained or healed by neighbor audience.

[Flash]

Myths about Circumcision You Likely Believe
CIrcumcision does great harm to babies
Published on September 11, 2011 by Darcia Narvaez, Ph.D. in Moral Landscapes

NOTE: Primary author is Lillian Dell'Aquila Cannon (see her blog)

When I was pregnant with my first child, I just thought that circumcision was what you did, no big deal, and that every man was circumcised. Then one day I saw a picture of a baby being circumcised, and everything changed. Just one tiny, grainy photo was enough to make me want to know more, and the more I knew, the worse it got. It turns out, circumcision really is a big deal.

Part 1 - Circumcision Surgery Myths

Myth 1: They just cut off a flap of skin.

Reality check: Not true. The foreskin is half of the penis's skin, not just a flap. In an adult man, the foreskin is 15 square inches of skin. In babies and children, the foreskin is adhered to the head of the penis with the same type of tissue that adheres fingernails to their nail beds. Removing it requires shoving a blunt probe between the foreskin and the head of the penis and then cutting down and around the whole penis. Check out these photos: http://www.drmomma.org/2011/08/intac...gnificant.html

Myth 2: It doesn't hurt the baby.

Reality check: Wrong. In 1997, doctors in Canada did a study to see what type of anesthesia was most effective in relieving the pain of circumcision. As with any study, they needed a control group that received no anesthesia. The doctors quickly realized that the babies who were not anesthetized were in so much pain that it would be unethical to continue with the study. Even the best commonly available method of pain relief studied, the dorsal penile nerve block, did not block all the babies' pain. Some of the babies in the study were in such pain that they began choking and one even had a seizure (Lander 1997).

Myth 3: My doctor uses anesthesia.

Reality check: Not necessarily. Most newborns do not receive adequate anesthesia. Only 45% of doctors who do circumcisions use any anesthesia at all. Obstetricians perform 70% of circumcisions and are least likely to use anesthesia - only 25% do. The most common reasons why they don't? They didn't think the procedure warranted it, and it takes too long (Stang 1998). A circumcision with adequate anesthesia takes a half-hour - if they brought your baby back sooner, he was in severe pain during the surgery.

Myth 4: Even if it is painful, the baby won't remember it.

Reality check: The body is a historical repository and remembers everything. The pain of circumcision causes a rewiring of the baby's brain so that he is more sensitive to pain later (Taddio 1997, Anand 2000). Circumcision also can cause post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), depression, anger, low self-esteem and problems with intimacy (Boyle 2002, Hammond 1999, Goldman 1999). Even with a lack of explicit memory and the inability to protest - does that make it right to inflict pain? Ethical guidelines for animal research whenever possible* - do babies deserve any less?
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Myth 5: My baby slept right through it.

Reality check: Not possible without total anesthesia, which is not available. Even the dorsal penile nerve block leaves the underside of the penis receptive to pain. Babies go into shock, which though it looks like a quiet state, is actually the body's reaction to profound pain and distress. Nurses often tell the parents "He slept right through it" so as not to upset them. Who would want to hear that his or her baby was screaming in agony?

Myth 6: It doesn't cause the baby long-term harm.

Reality check: Incorrect. Removal of healthy tissue from a non-consenting patient is, in itself, harm (more on this point later). Circumcision has an array of risks and side effects. There is a 1-3% complication rate during the newborn period alone (Schwartz 1990). Here is a short list potential complications.

Meatal Stenosis: Many circumcised boys and men suffer from meatal stenosis. This is a narrowing of the urethra which can interfere with urination and require surgery to fix.

Adhesions. Circumcised babies can suffer from adhesions, where the foreskin remnants try to heal to the head of the penis in an area they are not supposed to grow on. Doctors treat these by ripping them open with no anesthesia.

Buried penis. Circumcision can lead to trapped or buried penis - too much skin is removed, and so the penis is forced inside the body. This can lead to problems in adulthood when the man does not have enough skin to have a comfortable erection. Some men even have their skin split open when they have an erection. There are even more sexual consequences, which we will address in a future post.

Infection. The circumcision wound can become infected. This is especially dangerous now with the prevalence of hospital-acquired multi-drug resistant bacteria.

Death. Babies can even die of circumcision. Over 100 newborns die each year in the USA, mostly from loss of blood and infection (Van Howe 1997 & 2004, Bollinger 2010).

Isn't it time to think more carefully about whether we should be circumcising our boys?

But, you say, aren't there important health benefits? See the next post.

* http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...likely-believe

Interesting read. I will find more on psychological aspects.

[Flash]

Studies show that circumcision is significantly painful and traumatic. Some infants do not cry because they go into shock. After circumcision infants exhibit behavioral changes, and there are disruptions in mother-child bonding. Changes in pain response of circumcised infants have been demonstrated in baby boys at six months of age, evidence of lasting neurological effects and a symptom of post-traumatic stress disorder. Anesthetics, if used, do not eliminate circumcision pain. Circumcision also has about two dozen surgical risks including, in rare cases, death. Some doctors and nurses refuse to perform or assist with circumcisions because of ethical considerations.

Long-term harm is also a consideration, but circumcised American researchers also typically avoid the discomfort of studying the sexual and psychological harm (e.g., erectile dysfunction) associated with circumcision. This pro-circumcision bias in American medicine reflects the pro-circumcision bias in American culture. The United States is the only country in the world that circumcises many of its male infants for non-religious reasons. Europeans think we’re crazy.

Americans generally ignore the fact that the loss of the foreskin matters. Most circumcised American men (and doctors) do not know what they are missing. Based on recent reports, circumcision removes up to one-half of the erogenous tissue on the penile shaft. The adult foreskin is a double layer, a movable sleeve equivalent to approximately twelve square inches. Medical studies have shown that the foreskin protects the penile head, enhances sexual pleasure, and facilitates intercourse.http://intactnews.org/node/107/13125...actors-ignored

Although I could say "what do I know about circumcision and the pain of it" and it would be a right comment, I still find these readings nevertheless interesting.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Tangri (here)

Posted by westhill (here)
I have two sons both are NOT circumcised because I researched it ahead of time. This is unnecessary trauma set deep in the mind where there are no words just experience perpetrated on BABIES, usually without pain killers.
They scream. Let's think which part of your body you would like cut off today. Even back in the late 1980s 50% of parents were deciding not to circumcise theirs sons. Imagine if we decided to start slicing our daughters. I said no!
westhill

You think you are not already making hole on them?

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=yeZ1J2D3JfA

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=7xuMDOVxuhY

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=p3mov1LHYLA

You can't see the forest if you are looking only one tree.

Damage can be curtained or healed by neighbor audience.

I am not for that either, but I can at least tell you that the kid does not go it shock where he cannot even cry, just space out, leave its body, like in circumcision.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Good for you Christian, this was your adult choice, with anesthesia as to not suffer too much. this is most often not the case with children and new born.

[kat]

Came across this article today. Mother arrested for failure to circumcise son;
http://naturalsociety.com/mother-arr...-year-old-son/

[Akasha]

OnisionSpeaks on the subject (maybe this should have gone in the 'Theories of the Deep....' thread) :

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=cwXAn_p_OHY

[Ted]

My late father in law, who was a doctor, had himself circumcised at the age of 35. He was always very happy with that decision, saying it was more hygienic and easier maintenance. No regrets whatsoever.
Just thought I would pass that along...