The Breakdown of Human Morals and Ethics and the Rise of the Psychopaths

[Bubu]

The rise of sociopath is due to some group corrupting human values. IMO

[Selkie]

Posted by Joe Akulis (here)
So, the observation is limited to the US, then, sounds like. So, you're asserting that you feel things in the US have gone downhill, ethically, since the sixties?

Do we really need to flip the pages back and take a closer look at how America acquired all this land, from sea to shining sea?

Here's a quick example from The American Empire:
http://www.ahealedplanet.net/america.htm

"In March 1814, a force of 2,000 whites and 500 Cherokee and Creek cornered the Red Stick army at what is today called Horseshoe Bend, on the Tallapoosa River in Alabama. Jackson had never led a battle before and his strategy amounted to firing cannons at their fortifications. The action would have probably ended in failure if not for Cherokee braves who swam the river and attacked the Red Sticks from the rear. Their efforts divided the Creek defense, and the whites then laid siege to the fortifications. In that fierce battle, eight hundred of the thousand Red Sticks died. The aftermath was as brutal as they come. The whites were not content with mere scalps. They skinned Red Stick bodies to make bridle reins, belts, and other fashionable items. Jackson ordered cutting off the noses of dead Red Sticks to get an accurate body count. He later ensured that body parts were distributed to the “ladies of Tennessee” as souvenirs.[202]

Davy Crockett, who fought at Horseshoe Bend, as did Sam Houston, wrote that the troops ate potatoes that had been basted in the fat of Red Stick warriors in another battle during the same campaign. Those battles made Jackson an American hero. "


Sounds like some good Christianly-inspired ethical restraint to me...

(my emphasis)

My point is that all of that may not be Christian-inspired at all, but a manifestation of primitive pagan psychopathic-like tendencies. Savagery is older than Christianity, and any group can display regressive, pagan, psychopathic-like behavior. The Hindus have done it. The Buddhists have done it. Everyone has done it, and I think that that behavior comes from a sub-stratum, or stage, of human development that we are struggling to get past.

Posted by Joe Akulis (here)
...The thing I'm hoping to point out is, we've been pretty despicable all along, it's just the average citizen trying to stay out of trouble and live a comfortable life will never know about the uglier side of our history...

You just made my point for me, and it astounds me that you take to task people who live just the way you would have them live...peacefully...just because they are ignorant. I mean, you say that we have always been despicable, and yet, when people live un-despicably... that is, when they stay out of trouble...you don't like that, either!

So yes, we've always been despicable. And even savage. It is something that most people do not like about the human species. But most religions...or at least the mainstream ones...are attempts by the human species to get a grip on the problem, no matter how imperfectly they do it. And I'll tell you something else, it is those very same "...average citizen trying to stay out of trouble..." that makes the world a safer place. What does it matter if they do not know about the uglier side of our history? How would that make things better? As long as people live peaceably, I don't care if they are as ignorant as fence posts about the history of the world. Should I trouble an old, deaf granny, who lives peaceably, with the sordid history of the world? Or a young couple who live quietly and raise their children to be good to others...to me, such people are already doing their part. Just by living the way they live, they are making the world a better, more peaceful place. I mean, what? Should we "wake them up"? To what purpose?, so that they can help make the world a better place? They are already doing exactly that, just by living peacefully and raising pro-social children.

The knowledge of the evil of the world is a burden that not everyone was meant to carry. Those of us who are meant to carry it are the ones who "wake up", and it is not for me to violate someone's innocence just because I am disgruntled at having awoken.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Bubu (here)
The rise of sociopath is due to some group corrupting human values. IMO

Yes, my point exactly. And thanks

[Ted]

My point is that all of that may not be Christian-inspired at all, but a manifestation of primitive pagan psychopathic-like tendencies. Savagery is older than Christianity, and any group can display regressive, pagan, psychopathic-like behavior. The Hindus have done it. The Buddhists have done it. Everyone has done it, and I think that that behavior comes from a sub-stratum, or stage, of human development that we are struggling to get past.

The motive and the justification are often two different things. Killing has been justified by religious principals for all of recorded history. The motive is usually hatred or greed.
Religion doesn't work in the west anymore so we say we are fighting for democracy and freedom instead, but we all know it's BS.
In my mind there is no justification for starting a war.

[Carmody]

Conscious faith is freedom. Emotional faith is slavery. Mechanical faith is foolishness.

- G. I. Gurdjieff

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How to create a social state by Saul Alinsky:

1) Healthcare– Control healthcare and you control the people.

2) Poverty – Increase the Poverty level as high as possible. Poor people are easier to control and will not fight back if you are providing everything for them to live.

3) Debt – Increase the debt to an unsustainable level. That way you are able to increase taxes, and this will produce more poverty.

4) Gun Control– Remove the ability to defend themselves from the Government. That way you are able to create a police state.

5) Welfare – Take control of every aspect of their lives (Food, Housing, and Income.)

6) Education – Take control of what people read and listen to – take control of what children learn in school.

7) Religion – Remove the belief in God from the government and schools.

8) Class Warfare – Divide the people into the wealthy and the poor. This will cause more discontent and it will be easier to take (Tax) the wealthy with the support of the poor.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Posted by Carmody (here)
I don't mind speaking about elemental transmutation, as in this case it is real, it has a verifiable history, it even has a patent trail up an into modern times.

It takes the money in the human... the greed, the perception of need...the idea of wanting and control, the idea of control by desire, by perception.... and utterly trashes it.

It ends the scarcity/fear control tactic that comes from the depths of the money in the mind of the human. It ends that mechanism. It works on ending the hindbrain fear lock. One tied to the fundamentals of monkey/hominid clan unconscious rules and motions, that have been twisted into this money/scarcity/leader/pack/order thing...the thing we call money and finance. It ends the primary methodology of hidden oligarchy.

Of all the ways that humanity can be freed from the devices and methods that lock it down into control, as a matrix.... this is at the top. So I agree, there is more than just alchemy ...but this discussion is important and it is real.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...iza-Death-Star
~~~~~~~

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...ght=sociopaths

[Selkie]

Posted by Ted (here)

The point I was trying to make is that it could be argued that there is no "decline". We can find just as much evidence to point out the lack of it in just about any point in our history over the last 2000 years and further.

Yes, but it still misses the point. We're talking about a rather short period of time.
There have always been good and evil people throughout our history, the nature of duality demands it. Through our own perceptions we're trying to quantify it here a bit.
Having children to raise makes one more aware of the nefarious influences in our society. We see it on the TV, in the schools, in the movies, and in the people we associate with. We want to raise our children with the same values we have, which are rarely reflected anymore in the popular culture.
I remember being seriously questioned by other parents when we didn't allow our children to go see R rated movies with their kids. When I was their age no parent would even think of letting their child see anything but G rated movies.
This is the type of degradation I'm talking about. My parents knew that I had plenty of time when I got older to handle "adult" situations. Kids don't need that garbage in their lives. They don't know how to deal with it intellectually or emotionally. Kids need a wholesome intellectual diet in order to develop properly.
There is a concerted effort to reduce or eradicate traditional (or Christian if you like) ethical and moral standards, and replace them with "politically correct" standards.
If they were higher standards than I already have, then OK, I'm good with it. But they're not. They're more the kind of let's-all-take-off-our-clothes-and-copulate-in-the-street type of morals. Some people might like that, but I don't, and I don't think it makes for a healthy society.
It's great for the power brokers because it weakens everyone who buys into it. How can someone stand up against wrong with moral conviction if they have none? They want everyone else to adopt the same morality as they have.
No thanks.

Ted

(my emphasis)

Brilliant, and very well said. Thank you so much!

There does seem to be a concerted effort to erode pro-social, traditional values, and to my eye, that effort seemed to start in the mid-60's with the Kennedy Assassination and the coup by the secret government.

[Selkie]

Posted by Ted (here)
The motive and the justification are often two different things. Killing has been justified by religious principals for all of recorded history. The motive is usually hatred or greed.

That's right, and what it shows is that people who want to kill others will find a rationale. Sometimes that rationale is religious. Sometimes it is patriotic. Sometimes it is ethnic. Etcetera.

[Selkie]

Posted by Kryztian (here)
...I just see those as good spiritual values that you find of some people who could be Christian, Buddhist, Pagan, agnostic, etc.

Yes, of course, and so do I. What I said is that (referring to the U.S.) those values come to us by way of the Christians. I am sorry, but that is just a fact, since the ordinary, everyday people...farmers, merchants and the like...who came here from the old world were Christian. We know now that there are other religions that espouse the same values, but although few people seem to realize it, that knowledge is fairly new. I mean, by and large, talking about average people, before the 60's most average people knew nothing about Buddhism and were only dimly aware of it. And by the pagans, I will assume that you mean the neo-pagans (excepting John Lash and his KWP, with their murderous intent), who are really more like Christians than they are like those pagans of old, with their slavery and human sacrifices.

Posted by Kryztian (here)
...but hey, we are human beings, and we usually do find a path back to our humanity.

Indeed we are, and indeed we do

[Joe Akulis]

Posted by Silkie (here)
What does it matter if they do not know about the uglier side of our history? How would that make things better? As long as people live peaceably, I don't care if they are as ignorant as fence posts about the history of the world.

So, this lofty, moral and ethical way of life that you lament the decay of... If all those morals and ethics cannot inspire the slightest care about any kind of atrocity that occurs to your neighbors, then I'm not sure it's a kind of ethics that I would like to bring back. Sorry if that makes me the bad guy on this thread.

[Selkie]

Btw, not too long before he was murdered, John F Kennedy seems to have undergone illumination. He woke up. It seems to have happened because of two things: the death of a baby son and at least one session of LSD with Mary Meyer. And look what they did. They murdered him. They could not afford to have an awakened, peace-promoting President when all their plans depend upon war and mayhem.

[Selkie]

Posted by Joe Akulis (here)

Posted by Silkie (here)
What does it matter if they do not know about the uglier side of our history? How would that make things better? As long as people live peaceably, I don't care if they are as ignorant as fence posts about the history of the world.

So, this lofty, moral and ethical way of life that you lament the decay of... If all those morals and ethics cannot inspire the slightest care about any kind of atrocity that occurs to your neighbors, then I'm not sure it's a kind of ethics that I would like to bring back. Sorry if that makes me the bad guy on this thread.

You are not the bad guy here. There are no bad guys here, yet. Everyone has been really polite, considering that it is a very contentious subject. And I am glad that you are making the points you are making.

There is cogitation about morals, and then there is living a moral life. I am content if people live morally without cogitating about it. If you want to throw away the good at the expense of some kind of moral perfection, that is up to you, but I hope you don't do that, though

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfec..._enemy_of_good

[Pam]

Silki, thanks for a most interesting topic. I wonder if part of it is that the mere nature of being a psychopath eventually puts more and more of them in higher places. If I were a psychopath, I would have a lot of advantages. I would be very willing to lie, coverup, harm and fabricate so that I could get into the position of authority I desired. Your average person is not willing, nor would they have the audacity to do those things. As more and more psychopaths find themselves in high places in the government and the corporate world they would create an atmosphere conducive to attracting more. For instance, if I am in charge and am willing to do all kinds of unethical things to make a profit, I am only going to attract others that are willing to do the same. Your average person will draw the line somewhere, for ethical reasons or for fear of consequence.

[Bubu]

what I see is a subliminal message telling us that christian value is needed to prevent rise of sociopath. Nothing could be further from the truth. What we need to do is spread awareness among our fellows as to the real cause of moral decline so as we can solve the problem not spread religion which is actually one of the tool use by the said group to corrupt our values/ increase the number of sociopaths among us

[Selkie]

Posted by Bubu (here)
what I see is a subliminal message telling us that christian value is needed to prevent rise of sociopath.

(my emphasis)

Then you misperceiving, and so is anyone else who sees the same thing because there is no evidence for what you say you see.

I said that I am not a Christian, or even a crypto-Christian. I am not against same-sex marriage, or gays, or anything like that.

What I said is that there seems to be a rise of psychopathic behavior that coincides with the breakdown of what we call Christian morals in this country. I also pointed out that although other religions espouse those self same values, they come to us in the U.S. by way of the Christians, but that is credit where credit is due. I also said that not all Christian values make for a better world, and indicated that those values (or ethics, whatever you want to call them) ought to be discarded in favor of more realistic ones, just like some of the values of all religions need revising if we are to live in peace. I went to great pains to point out that all religions are a mix of good and bad.

So you are simply wrong.

Not only that, if I had an agenda to promote Christian values, I would tell you so. I would not try to seduce and manipulate you to over to my side, as if I were some sort of psychopath.

[Selkie]

Posted by Bubu (here)
...What we need to do is spread awareness among our fellows as to the real cause of moral decline so as we can solve the problem not spread religion which is actually one of the tool use by the said group to corrupt our values/ increase the number of sociopaths among us

Awareness is a kind of luxury. Not everyone can afford it.

[Selkie]

You know, people have been so well-trained to knee-jerk hate on Christianity that they cannot even see that it has some good points**. If they had trained us to hate on Buddhism the same way, everyone would be up in arms, and its not like the Buddhists have not committed atrocities, too

http://www.globalresearch.ca/buddhis...galore/5396471

and that is just recent history.

** Being able to see the good points of a religion is not tantamount to subliminally promoting it.

[Selkie]

Posted by peterpam (here)
Silki, thanks for a most interesting topic. I wonder if part of it is that the mere nature of being a psychopath eventually puts more and more of them in higher places. If I were a psychopath, I would have a lot of advantages. I would be very willing to lie, coverup, harm and fabricate so that I could get into the position of authority I desired. Your average person is not willing, nor would they have the audacity to do those things. As more and more psychopaths find themselves in high places in the government and the corporate world they would create an atmosphere conducive to attracting more. For instance, if I am in charge and am willing to do all kinds of unethical things to make a profit, I am only going to attract others that are willing to do the same. Your average person will draw the line somewhere, for ethical reasons or for fear of consequence.

(emphasis mine)

They may have a short-term advantage, but they always crash and burn because psychopaths do not take consequences into account, and they don't plan for the future. The grand psychopathic plan that has been unfolding before our eyes for decades...and getting worse by the day...cannot win. I have total faith in my fellow man...awakened, un-awakened, of any faith, or none...it makes no difference.

[Joe Akulis]

If I haven't worn out my welcome, I would like to suggest that it is not a knee jerk reaction to Chrisitanity that you will feel at Avalon, so much as a knee jerk reaction to the Romanized version of it that was forced upon the masses. As we have come to learn more and more about what humans are, and what consciousness is, and lots of other cool things, (largely due to contributions from awesome members right here at this site, and lots of other places, and books, and such), what we have begun to do is question parts of the Romanized version of Christianity that were given to us, and what parts were left out or even suppressed.

Here's a thread Bill Ryan started where we all chatted about the original Christian for a while.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...smear-campaign

[Selkie]

Posted by Joe Akulis (here)
If I haven't worn out my welcome...

You are as welcome here as anyone else

Posted by Joe Akulis (here)
I would like to suggest that it is not a knee jerk reaction to Chrisitanity that you will feel at Avalon, so much as a knee jerk reaction to the Romanized version of it that was forced upon the masses.

(my emphasis)

Well, maybe it would help it folks stopped responding to something in their heads and responded to what I actually said. People have been so well trained to hate on the Christians...Romanized version or otherwise...that just say the word "Christian" and their hackles rise and they can't listen or see straight. And that is just stupid, because it serves the agenda of the psychopaths.

Posted by Joe Akulis (here)
...what we have begun to do is question parts of the Romanized version of Christianity that were given to us, and what parts were left out or even suppressed.

This is good, and very necessary. All religions are fair game to be deconstructed, the crap and lies thrown out and the good stuff kept

[Ted]

You know, people have been so well-trained to knee-jerk hate on Christianity that they cannot even see that it has some good points

To be truly aware, one has to be an independent thinker about all things. Painting all members of any group with the same brush is called prejudice. Thinking that Christianity is evil is ignorance.
I look for good advice, and take it where I find it. I also try to determine the motivation that drives good people, and I take notice of it. Oftentimes it is a result of their faith.
Has anyone wondered why it is so much easier to morally backslide than it is to be virtuous? It's because it takes a lot of vigilance and hard work to live up to high standards. Spiritual evolution is all about rising above the animal nature of the body consciousness. That animal nature is somewhat psychopathic as it only thinks about gratification of its passions. This creates a conflict between the soul and the body. The body want's to eat the rest of the chocolate cake and the soul is saying no (the compromise is usually one more piece).
The PTB know all this, and would much rather you give into your animal nature and ignore your soul altogether. Then they can dangle little bobbles, which your body so much desires, in front of you and make you dance to their own tune.
If you're not listening to that inner voice, you'll find yourself dancing like there's no tomorrow.

Cheers,

Ted

[WhiteLove]

OP, your post is totally relevant, there are assumptions made that are kind of true but in reality has some more color to it, some more "twist". That does not make the topic less important though, I would say that your post in general stays relevant and can easily count for those assumptions that I would say are maybe not that simple to make. In fact I like that you bring front the positive aspects of Christian Ethics, our society has too little of that, there is too much struggle out there...

I'm a Christian, Christ love is for me something that makes perfect sense, I love it, I like it, I want it to guide me, I want to grow in it and I want it to be my friend. I have very beautiful memories of being with Christians because of the events that are arranged have a deepness and emotion to it that I really like, it becomes so real. As a person in today's society over time if you have not been with Christians for a long time you might start missing those moments when you can be with others that are also open of the fact that they care about the deeper aspects of life and want a community going around that searching. But that extends also beyond Christian events, to for instance this community, I would say this community here at Avalon has much of the same vibe, maybe that is to some degree also due to the fact that many here are open and although maybe not always openly Christian can understand and accept some of the Christian ideas about what is important in life.

I am a deep Christian since many many years, but that is to me something very simple, I don't feel bound by any particular "rules", for me the Christian life is a lot about being aware of the "negative" side of the ego as something to gradually learn to overcome, not by force but by gravitating towards the unconditional love of Christ and hence let go of the "bad ego" being. I do agre e that psychopaths are rooted in "bad ego", there is simply no doubt at all about that and it is of course a parasitic impact on the well being of others and on the well being of the self. But even psychopaths are loved, that's the amazing thing about Christ love, it has no limits.

Psychopaths are dangerous, we should be aware of that danger, but I feel that we must also look forward beyond those types of people and trust that in truth everyone will integrate back, nobody should be left behind. Christ love is that force that prays for the psychopath and when the psychopath wants to harm your friend, you go between and let your bad ego take that suffering instead. Dying for your friend because of the love for your friend, that is what Christ love is and that is the message that Christ gave by dying on the cross - that life is in this kind of love. It is a paradox, we are kind of always alive, but can be really alive once we accept true unconditional love.

To sum it up, I think that we should learn to love and as difficult as it might seem we should learn to love psychopaths also, but use the protection of Christ and our own spiritual intelligence in this process so that what can be a positive catalyst for both, don't turn into the opposite, that's the danger here. As we learn to live in Christ love, we learn about unconditional love and we learn about what life can be. It is a learning process.