On the death toll of the Jewish Holocaust

[Tesseract]

Oftentimes when the Jewish Holocaust is mentioned in discussion forums, there are a series of responses stating or suggesting that the real number of Jews killed was dramatically lower than what we are told, that they were casualties of war rather than the target of a deliberate genocide, or, very occasionally, that the entire Holocaust is a little more than a gigantic lie.

The denier/revisionist arguments have always been based on certain inconsistencies, which, on their own, do invite a certain level of question within any person with a logical mind. That is the clever intention, of course, and it is not so different to the mechanism used to promote the conspiracy theories of today: highlight selectively an inconsistency or two, and then jump to a conclusion.

However while many contemporary conspiracy theories are put to bed quite quickly, at least for those with a fair mind and level of discernment, the revisionist ideas of the holocaust seem to have a certain longevity, and may even be spreading. Moreover, these revisionist ideas and suggestions are spreading at a time when they ought to be receding.

The problem is, and this is what fuels a lot of the casual revisionism, is that there is a certain plausibility to the figure of 6 million deaths being incorrect. This big, round number feels like a general estimate more than a precisely computed figure; since the chaos of war, occupations and the mass movement of peoples would surely make it difficult to compute accurately. And, if it was a general estimate, wouldn’t it be good to know the true figure? And, even more extraordinarily, what if some of the revisionists were actually correct?

I happened upon a fantastic thread in another forum, dedicated to this very question. And, finding myself fascinated, I trawled through that material, and other material, looking for what I hoped would be a clear, data based answer on the final death toll of the holocaust. It was an interesting, and deeply depressing journey, some of which I have decided to share here in summary. I don’t claim to be any kind of scholar on this topic and I can’t debate the issue strongly from a technical perspective, and what I found may not be to the satisfaction of any other particular person, but for the layperson who has an interest, these concise bits of information may be useful.

So, to begin, it turns out one of my sentences above is entirely correct – it has indeed been extremely difficult to compute a final death toll of Europoean Jews. But, it has been done. It has been done several times, with results becoming more and more accurate with the new information becoming available over the years. I mainly will give detail on the death toll estimates, rather than the question of whether there even was a deliberate genocide. An important source of my summary is the thread in the axis-powers forum, which I will link below. What made that thread fascinating was the participation, not just of a couple of informed and open minded people with a somewhat revisionist mindset, but also the participation of a noted holocaust scholar, Nick Terry. After sharing the highlights of this material, I will move on briefly to David Irving, to see what the other side is saying, so to speak.

- One of the earliest formal estimates of the number of European Jews killed in the holocaust was from Gerald Reitlinger, who arrived at an upper figure of 4.5 million. Since his work was, from all accounts, quite methodical, and since he wrote closer to the time of the actual events, some are tempted to use this figure to dispute the 6 million claim. I read that Reitlinger later stated that his numbers were too low.

- The great limitation of Reitlinger’s work was that it was completed before German records were opened up in the 1960s.

- Soviet archives on German crimes were made available in the 1980s

- Communist party archives made available in the 1990s.

- With these new sources of information, death toll estimates began to rise, truncated to 1 decimal place:

Reitlinger (1953): 4.5 million
Hilberg (1991): 5.1 million
Guttman & Rozett (1990?): 5.8 million
Benz (1999?): 6.2 million

You can see the country by country beakdowns summarized here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...33429&start=75 and these are not the only estimates.

- The biggest source of uncertainty in the death toll is in that of Poland and the Soviet Union.

- According to Nick Terry, who is an expert in the holocaust in the Soviet Union, at least 4 million Jews were killed in Poland and the Soviet Union, and over 1 million in the rest of Europe, leading to a minimum figure of 5 million. I will copy in below one excerpt, just to add a little more substance:

“total: ca. 2.8 million out of 6 million civilian dead [on soviet territory] (excl. Leningrad blockade)

The Baltic states and Moldovan figures conform to Western sources, the figures for the Slavic nations are significantly higher. Obviously the figures for the Ukraine include Galicia, those for Belorussia include the Bialystok district. Overall figures for Moldova were incomplete for comparative purposes.

source: Ilya Altman, Zhertvy Nenavisti, Moscow, 2002, p.303
for overall statistics, Pavel Polyan, Zhertvy dvukh diktatury, Moscow, 2002, pp.735-738

Figures include neither those deported to Germany, ca. 3 million civilians, of whom somewhere between 25-33% disappeared before repatriation, nor POWs, for which there are of course a host of other Soviet military casualty statistics and German reports.

Both authors, indeed most now working on the occupation of the Soviet Union, base their overall calculations on the investigations of the Soviet Extraordinary Commission (GARF fond 7021), which functioned by literally creating a committee in every single district (rayon - Kreis) and town beginning in many cases as early as weeks after liberation and continuing to work until 1948 and beyond. Thus the aggregated local information functioned as a kind of census of wartime losses.

The truly scary thing is how often German sources agree with the postwar Soviet investigations. These being not simply the infamous Ereignismeldungen but all the manifold other reports which catalogued killings galore of all kinds. Since there are so many points of congruence, it strengthens the veracity of those Soviet reports for localities where there was not so much detail in the German reports.

“


Based on current research (up to mid 2000s) the estimate of the number of European Jews killed is from 5 to 6.2 million. This is based on the work of thousands of scholars throughout the decades.

The thread goes through a lot of the numbers, the question of borders, relocations, double counting and so on. When you see all this laid out, it becomes very obvious that the figure of 6 million is not one that is fabricated from nothing.

You also see that it is completely normal for historians to disagree and to calculate figures that are slightly under 6 million (but certainly over 5). There have been occasions where the death toll at a particular location or in a particular atrocity has been revised down, removing the basis of claims that estimates are only ever revised upwards. The most famous example is the downwards revision of the number of Jews killed at Auschwitz from 4 million down to between 0.9 and 1.5 million. You will also see, in the axis powers thread, Nick Terry criticising Ariel Sharon for exaggerating, for political purposes, the number of Hungarian Jews that were killed.

I accept the figure of about 6 million as being correct. It’s a terrible number. But, after going through, and dwelling on, this information the most awful aspect was that ordinary, civilised, people carried out this organised genocide. Thousands and thousands of them, not just a few psychopaths. That tells you something very depressing about the true nature of human beings that is hard to reconcile.

For the sake of another angle, I decided to hear what the most famous, and much reviled, revisionist historian, David Irving, had to say. He revoked his claims that there was no organised genocide many years ago, making him a revisionist rather than a denier. That said, he still holds many deeply racist views, including anti-Semitic ones. A 2014 youtube video shows him speaking for about 2 h, seemingly in a hotel.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=YLEzZ0_q7Z0

It’s amateur video and the audio is not fantastic. There is a very interesting passage in the video, just after the 1 h mark, where he discusses some new information that was recently discovered in an archive in the UK, an intercepted German communication. He states that he wanted it to be fake, because if true, it would give revisionists a ‘black eye’. He then reveals that the information is real, and that revisionists should no longer question the number of Jews that were killed. It’s quite an astounding section of video, for the greatest revisionist of all no longer, on the basis of historical documents, refutes the numbers. Ironic then, that it is now that we see, online especially, the revisionist movement and the questioning of the holocaust death toll actually gaining steam.


I don’t contest the claim that there are people who use the holocaust to further their political agendas, nor do I fail to realise that the holocaust does not represent the entire tragedy of WW2, or that other genocides do not get the attention that the holocaust does. To hold the belief though, or to promulgate the suggestion, that the number of Jews killed in the holocaust was nowhere near 6 million is, I believe, to ignore decades of research and scholarship. It is also an escape from the dreadful reality of the human predicament, and with that escape one also perhaps risks losing a critical appreciation, an insight into human behaviour, which is the one thing those with a connection to the holocaust urge us most strongly to understand.

Link to axis history forum thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...33429&start=45

[alh02]

Hi Tesseract,

You may these of interest:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Dda-0Q_XUhk

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=4Locuhe6ECU

**POST UPDATE**

Oops just realised I posted the same video twice, 2nd video now corrected.

[Tesseract]

I actually saw that video a few months ago, and after watching it came to the conclusion that it was likely statistically meaningless. I think Irving is asked about it in the video I linked, he dismisses it also. Regardless, it does nothing to undermine all of the investigative research that has been done into the holocaust.

[lucidity]

Hello Siblings,

These days... whenever i hear or read the word 'holocaust'
I think immediately of those poor Palestinian women and children
caught in that horrific bloodbath in Gaza last year.
Needless slaughter of innocent people. :-|

lucidity

[Flash]

Posted by lucidity (here)
Hello Siblings,

These days... whenever i hear or read the word 'holocaust'
I think immediately of those poor Palestinian women and children
caught in that horrific bloodbath in Gaza last year.
Needless slaughter of innocent people. :-|

lucidity

me too..................

[Tesseract]

I do agree with you lucidity, you will see the evidence for that if you are familiar with some of my previous posts, but I have to be frank and say that that is a separate issue, and a bit of a non-sequitur from my OP.

[syrwong]

The holocaust unspoken of that period was in China. The number of deaths is generally estimated to be 600 million soldiers (Kuomintang + Red army), and over 2000 million civillians by direct killing, death from starvation, suicude etc not included. There is no reason for both Chinese governments to inflate the figures, and in fact reasons to suppress the figures because they both announced waiving Japanese compensation immediately after the war.

In history, the truth is often unspoken.

[Tesseract]

Any mention of Chinese suffering and history is normally strangely absent from Western narratives of the early to middle 20th century. And yet everyone knows about Tiananmen Square. I hope that that, largely untold or unheard story, reaches an audience one day.

[Flash]

Tesseract;975216]Any mention of Chinese suffering and history is normally strangely absent from Western narratives of the early to middle 20th century. And yet everyone knows about Tiananmen Square. I hope that that, largely untold or unheard story, reaches an audience one day.

It is much more than Tiananmen Square. I just heard today that Under MAO, there has been 80 millions, yes, 77 millions death. Talk about an holocaust!! And we never hear of it.

In Russia it was around 27 millions I think, I have to revise the knowledge base to be sure.

I found it, I was not far, Hitler was a toddler compared with others

[QUOTE]5. Hideki Tojo (5 million deaths)

Breakdown: Waged unprovoked wars against China, USA, Netherlands, and France.

Hideki Tojo was a general in the Imperial Japanese Army. He assumed the position of Prime Minister and held Army Minister concurrently. As if that wasn’t enough he also held other major positions like Home Minister, Foreign Minister, Education Minister, and Commerce Minister. His major contributions to education were teaching militaristic and nationalist indoctrination. His version of homeland security was approving eugenics measures which essentially made a distinction between pure blood and mixed blood Japanese families.

During World War II Tojo started winning battles and the public loved him for it. He really bought into the Nazi Kool-aid, and held steadfastly with Germany. When the tide turned, and he began losing, it was devastating. Eventually he went into seclusion. He was tried for war crimes and found guilty of waging wars of aggression, wars in violation of international law, and waging unprovoked war against many countries. Not to mention ordering, authorizing, and permitting inhumane treatment of Prisoners of War.

4. Leopold II of Belgium (2-15 million deaths)

Breakdown: Created a colony called the “Congo Free State”, enslaved its people, and forced them into labor plants.

Leopold II was the King of the Belgians, and believed in colonialism. He thought acquiring colonies overseas was essential to a great country and was always scheming. The problem was Belgium really didn’t care, and so Leopold went into business for himself. He started a company that seemed like it was doing good called the International African Society. A year later he used that company to travel to Congo, laid claim to a plot of land 14 times the size of Belgium, and made 14 countries agree (USA included) that he was free to rule it with his own private militia. He then forced the indigenous populations into forced labor, created a bustling rubber industry, and abused his workers grievously.


Missionary John Harris on returning from Congo said:
“I have just returned from a journey inland to the village of Insongo Mboyo. The abject misery and utter abandon is positively indescribable.”

Estimates of the death toll range from two to fifteen million which could all have been avoided if 14 countries didn’t hand him the keys to the car!

3. Adolf Hitler (17 million deaths)

Breakdown: Concentration camps and civilians in WWII.

Adolf Hitler was the leader of the Nazi Party. He was the absolute dictator of Germany from 1934 to 1945. He gained support by promoting values like German nationalism and anti-semitism. Hitler was appointed chancellor in 1933 and began the Third Reich. Hitler was power hungry as all hell, hated the **** out of Jews (and others), and wanted hegemony in Europe. The militarization that was needed to complete such a lofty goal led to the outbreak of World War II. Nazi forces engaged in the systematic murder of as many as 17 million civilians, an estimated six million of whom were Jews, and 1.5 million Romanis.

2. Jozef Stalin (23 million deaths)

Breakdown: The great purges and Ukraine’s famine.

Jozef Stalin was the first Secretary of the Communist Party from 1922 – 1953. After Lenin’s death in 1924, he became the leader of the Soviet Union. Stalin didn’t take long in launching a new economy that screwed up food production across the country so bad it caused massive famine. Between 1922-23 it reached such catastrophic proportions everything went to ****. In Ukraine this dark period is known as Holodomor. Its widely believed that Soviet policies caused the famine there and was designed as an attack on Ukrainian nationalism. Estimates on the total number of casualties within Soviet Ukraine range from 2.6 million to 10 million! During the late 1930s Stalin launched another wonderfully titled initiative called the Great Purge (also known as the “Great Terror”). It was a paranoid campaign to kill off the people who opposed him, and his targets were often executed.

In 1939 Stalin agreed to a non-aggression pact with the Nazis. Eventually Germany violated the pact, the Soviet Union joined the allies, and they racked up 23.9 million deaths (the largest death toll in the war).

1. Mao Zedong (49-78 million deaths)

Breakdown: Policy reforms like the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.

Mao Zedong was a Chinese revolutionary, political theorist, and communist leader who led the People’s Republic of China. Mao, while controversial, is still widely considered a savior of the nation. I did a semester abroad in China in 2001 after falling in love with its history, and was surprised in my conversations that many people thought Mao had done 70% – 80% good things. During his first five years from 1949 – 53 he is said to have systematically killed between 4 to 6 million people by sentencing them to die or by sending them to “reform through labor” camps. He organized mass repressions, established execution quotas, and defended his actions in these early years as necessary for securing power for “The People’s Republic of China”.

His social programs the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution are two of the most ill-fated, poorly named, initiatives ever. The first was an effort to rapidly industrialize China. His focus was on making China a premier exporter of steel, and to this end he asked everybody to make it. The problem was it got many citizens to make smelting shops in their backyards. Not only was the steel of little value, but it was made from everything lying around the house including their own cooking supplies! Without the tools to make food, no money coming in from the steel, and no money to survive ~ a lot of people starved to death. The estimates on this program alone are 20 million deaths! Think about that number. Really think about it. Then ask yourself… why would you EVER let someone back into power after such an insanely bad decision.Well, they took the reigns away from him for a short time.

In the interim Mao started the socialist education movement. He aimed the concept at young ones who would eventually wrest the power away from the older guard. By 1964 this movement was renamed the “four cleanups movement” whose goal was cleansing politics, economics, ideas, and organization of “reactionaries”. This led to the formation of the “Red Guards” who were organized to punish intellectuals and take out Mao’s political adversaries. The Cultural Revolution was now underway, and its overriding mission was to abolish: Old Customs, Old Culture, Old Habits, and Old Ideas. Something Mao fervently believed in was that destruction and chaos could bring re-birth. So he told his followers to destroy buildings, sacred objects, talk back to ones elders, punish them, turn them in, and kill those who did not agree. By 1968 things were starting to look pretty good for Mao all over again, and so he put into place the decade long “Down to the Countryside Movement” which forced young intellectuals to move out to the country to become farmers. Sadly, the people he pushed out there were the same Red Guards who had helped him get power. Estimates of the death toll are between 40,000 – 7 million depending on who you ask.

Finally, there is the 100 flowers movement which just needs an abbreviated mention here. Mao asked people to come forth and tell him how he should govern China. Intellectuals and liberals bit at the chance to tell him what they really thought, and were encouraged by the Communist party to do so. Then in a sudden change of heart, or an incredibly crafty mission to out his haters, the government persecuted 500,000 of them who were considered to be “dangerous thinkers”.

Mao is essentially like that girlfriend/boyfriend who keeps on taking a **** on you, but is so damn charming you hardly notice. His policies and political purges from 1949 to 1976 caused the deaths of 49 to 78 million people.

The moral of the story is ~

Let’s stop allowing evil political dictators to take office. And if we do have someone bad in office we can find better ways to get them out than murdering them, wars, and aggressive confrontations.
http://popten.net/2010/05/top-ten-mo...of-kill-count/[/[QUOTE]

[Tesseract]

Although not being an expert on the scholarship of those periods and people highlighted in your post, Flash, I don't fundamentally disagree, although it seems like the figure attributed to Stalin is that based on WW2 losses. You could also add the British Empire, Pol Pot, Suharto, Kissinger and others to the list. But I just want to remind people that my OP was on the revisionism, often casual, of the Jewish holocaust, and the incongruity of that position with the researched facts. It wasn't to say that other genocides and politically motivated atrocities have not taken place, or that these other tragedies are somehow unimportant.

[darthtoaster]

Tesseract, thanks for the OP. I make an input. The controlling group, some of which are by bloodline Jewish, often preprogram an event in the public consciousness. In this case, 6,000,000 Jews. If one has eyes to see and watched both David Irving's presentation as well as the 6 million Jews video, it becomes apparent just how unemotional and evil this group actually is. Thanks again.

[Flash]

Sorry if I misled your thread , I definitely had not understood the real aim of it. Therefore back to topic.

Posted by Tesseract (here)
Although not being an expert on the scholarship of those periods and people highlighted in your post, Flash, I don't fundamentally disagree, although it seems like the figure attributed to Stalin is that based on WW2 losses. You could also add the British Empire, Pol Pot, Suharto, Kissinger and others to the list. But I just want to remind people that my OP was on the revisionism, often casual, of the Jewish holocaust, and the incongruity of that position with the researched facts. It wasn't to say that other genocides and politically motivated atrocities have not taken place, or that these other tragedies are somehow unimportant.

[syrwong]

You don't hear of these figures for deaths under Mao because they were concocted. They appeared decades ago and did not stand test of time and reasoning. The figure of death of purging landlords etc I once calculated to be 1/16 of the population. That was utterly impossible. Under western propaganda, it is customary to create a huge fictitious figure with the philosophy that the larger the figure, the more believable it is. Mao was a great man unjustifiably vilified for anticommunist purposes. Didn't they make colossal butchers of the past century great men?

To see that Mao was the opposite of an evil dictator, you only have to wonder why the elderly Chinese are so nostalgic of the Mao era.

[PathWalker]

What I find special about the Jewish Holocaust is the following:
1. Government orgenised and executed ethnic cleansing.
2. Documented

This kind of organized and executed ethnic cleansing happened again in 1994 in Rawanda. it is less documented, but most executions where by fire and slaughter.

As for compassion, I have more compassion to the hopeless war refugees in Syria and Sudan than those in Palestine.
The Arab refuges from Palestine never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity, to solve their problems. Even in Jordan and Lebanon, they cut the branch that support them.

The MSM divert attention from the real tragedy, to the politically agenda.

For instance the people of Greece suffer no famine nor plague, yet are much more important to the west then people of Africa, Syria, Tibet.
Notice how our attention is programmed to prioritise suffering.

[idiit]

Thursday, July 2, 2015





The Holocaust Narrative: Politics Trumps Science
by
Jim Fetzer

http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/sear...&max-results=1

the 6 million jews killed in the Nazi internment camps figure has actually been rehashed for over 100 years.

There are more than 236 references to 6,000,000 Jews who are either in acute distress or about to be assailed in the newspapers of the world prior to the Nuremberg Tribunal— the first of which appeared in 1890. The number seems to have no basis in fact but to have theological origins—from a disputed passage in Leviticus—as to how many Jews must perish before they can return to “The Promised Land”.

stalin was the sole source of the 6 million hews killed in the internment camps. data from the red cross and other sources at that time fly in direct contradiction to the 6,000,000 figure. stalin was a khazarian; fake jews that hide behind the jewish religion to push the Zionist agenda. anyone who is critical of the khazarians is labled anti-Semite. the true anti-semites are the khazarians. the palastenians have more original ribe of Israel blood than 98% of the current inhabitants of Israel.

The Khazarian 'Jews' are NOT descendants of the 12 Tribes of Israel and their world view and lack of truly, pious spiritual Judaism have created conflict within that religion ever since. To a great extent, these are our current day Zionist Jews (including Neocons, of course) who have formed a world power banking, extortion cult of war and death that has little or nothing to do with being devout adherents of Judaism. These are the folks who think nothing of breaking the law, lying (Kol Nidre), stealing, graft, corruption, assassination, blackmail, extortion or destroying tens of millions of people to get their way.

http://www.rense.com/general83/khaz.htm

First thing we need to know is that Adolf Hitler was the Khazar project. He was actually a grandson of Solomon Major Rothschild who made a child to its serving lady Sikle Gruber. Hitler was financed from British and US banks, even Prescott Bush, grandfather of President Bush was bringing money to Hitler. Many of Hitler's close associates were Khazars. We can mention only a few – Boreman, Rosenbergh, Aichman, creator of missiles Fon Brown. His mistress Eva Brown was from the "lost 13th Jewish tribe.“

His opponents – Stalin, Roosevelt, Truman, and Eisenhower were Khazars.

http://truedemocracy.net/hj32/07.html

I posted some quotes and links. i'll catch hell for denying the lie. do your research. start with the three links I just posted.

germans to this day are not allowed by law to challenge the credibility of the holocaust.

^ if that's not a red flag then what is?

[Deega]

Hi, intrigued by the OP, I did a search in Google, and, though not extensive, the number are far less than suggested, I guess that the Nationalities of the authors of the Researchs may (but shouldn't) influence, wonder?

Two links, the first is a serious Research by the Red Cross, where the estimated number of Jews who died in concentration camps were in the order of 271,301 people.

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative...1-2835710.html

The second one is from the author John Birdman Bryant, he has the number at 600,000, not 6M.

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Jews...ionNumber.html

It seems to me that this subject is very ''touchy'', we don't talked much about the number of different Nationalities who lost their life in the 2WW, why is that?, there are surely valid reasons, anyone aware?

[idiit]

EISENHOWER'S DEATH CAMPS

aka "OTHER LOSSES"

Bombing of Dresden Bombing of Hamburg Bombing of Japan

Nuremberg Trials Operation Keelhaul Eisenhower's Camps

"God, I hate the Germans"
Dwight David Eisenhower in a letter to his wife, September, 1944

http://www.saveyourheritage.com/eise...eath_camps.htm

INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
.




















In 'Eisenhower's Death Camps':
A U.S. Prison Guard Remembers

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v10/v10p161_Brech.html

Published on Aug 21, 2013


The untold story of Eisenhower's Rhine Meadows Death Camps - A Deliberate Policy of Extermination of the Surrendered German forces by the Allies in post war Germany (Rheinwiesenlager). Full documentary, plus additional background information, and a memorial for the victims

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbp61fOVFaE

[Baby Steps]

I think you can make an accurate estimate of how many died by researching the prewar Jewish population numbers for Poland,Ukraine,the baltics, Germany,Austria, Hungary,Romania, Czechoslovakia , Byelorussia, Holland, and Belgium. Plus others from Norway, France , Denmark etc. then calculate,say 90%
That is a realistic number.
But of course that exercise is unnecessary as most of the names are documented.
Why does the 6 million number bother people?
What Stalin and Mao did I view as morally equivalent. Some say that a ham fisted Great Leap Forward or farm collectivisation is not genocide
I say that those leaders were waging war against certain groups that were a threat to their power, such as the kulaks
They unleashed fear of genocide as a tool to rule
Then look at what USA did and UK in ww2
Were they any better?

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Posted by Tesseract (here)
I actually saw that video a few months ago, and after watching it came to the conclusion that it was likely statistically meaningless

Likely meaningless? What kind of investigative thinking is that? Likely based on what, a statistical analysis you did taking into account what factors? Forgive me for being frank but when you talk about "any person with a logical mind" and a "fair mind and level of discernment," it sounds like demagoguery to me, giving you a way to outright dismiss whole arguments just because they don't meet your personal qualifications of who has a "logical mind" and who you believe to have the "right" level of "discernment."

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a "logical mind." There are logical arguments, and there are logical fallacies, but it's not that some people have "logical minds" and others simply don't and therefore can't ever reason, especially because they don't happen to believe what your approved "level of discernment." Judging someone as having a "logical mind" or not is going beyond the argument to make a personal judgment against someone and would amount to an ad hominem, as it is not actually a logical argument to say someone doesn't have a logical mind. The way I see everyone has the capacity to make a logical argument, and everyone has the capacity to make logical fallacies, fall for emotional "reasoning," conform to social conditioning regardless of the facts, make appeals to authority, etc.

The newspaper articles shown in the above video were outright lies, btw, and not just counting that was off a little bit. They describe totally fictitious events that were brazenly reported in the media as facts anyway. Maybe by the time WW2 rolled around "they" figured they had to actually crack a few eggs to make the omelette they wanted, eh?

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Posted by Baby Steps (here)
Why does the 6 million number bother people?
What Stalin and Mao did I view as morally equivalent.

I think Stalin is generally accepted to have killed something on the order of 20 million of his own people just in one set of purges that he ordered, and not even counting the millions of Germans that his troops were encouraged to rape and murder in the last, free-for-all phase of their march to Berlin.

The Japanese may have killed up to 12 million Chinese civilians alone.

I don't understand how you could say that these things are "morally equivalent," because I cannot personally even begin to comprehend the amount of tragedy signified by these numbers, to even begin to try to quantify or compare them to each other.

But I will say this: these other, more deadly events are not emotionally equivalent to the Holocaust in the minds of westerners. The Holocaust has been made a kind of holy item of history that is meant to spark political furor at its every mention, while these other genocides don't even have recognizable names and somehow took longer to seep into public consciousness.

When you see the fraudulent news articles above from years before WW2 even started, also claiming that 6 million Jews were being killed, that is the big clue that this was a political push. Whether 6 million were finally killed for real or not is beside the point. The point is that someone needed to create the perception of 6 million Jews being killed, one way or another, to accomplish some kind of fanatical goal. Think of religious wars, apocalyptic prophecies, and a bunch of obscenely wealthy bankers and other businessmen meeting in private to plan out the political future of the western hemisphere decades in advance, and you start to get a picture of what is going on here.