On the death toll of the Jewish Holocaust

[Deega]

Hmm!, tons of information on the subject, here's Mark Weber on Holocaust Denial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlUkTtbnPY

And Victor Thorn on Holocaust Hoax Exposed - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfCI7f1KopA

At least, we do have Researchers willing to tackle this touchy subject, interesting!

[Tesseract]

Posted by bsbray (here)

Posted by Tesseract (here)
I actually saw that video a few months ago, and after watching it came to the conclusion that it was likely statistically meaningless

Likely meaningless? What kind of investigative thinking is that? Likely based on what, a statistical analysis you did taking into account what factors? Forgive me for being frank but when you talk about "any person with a logical mind" and a "fair mind and level of discernment," it sounds like demagoguery to me, giving you a way to outright dismiss whole arguments just because they don't meet your personal qualifications of who has a "logical mind" and who you believe to have the "right" level of "discernment."

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a "logical mind." There are logical arguments, and there are logical fallacies, but it's not that some people have "logical minds" and others simply don't and therefore can't ever reason, especially because they don't happen to believe what your approved "level of discernment." Judging someone as having a "logical mind" or not is going beyond the argument to make a personal judgment against someone and would amount to an ad hominem, as it is not actually a logical argument to say someone doesn't have a logical mind. The way I see everyone has the capacity to make a logical argument, and everyone has the capacity to make logical fallacies, fall for emotional "reasoning," conform to social conditioning regardless of the facts, make appeals to authority, etc.

The newspaper articles shown in the above video were outright lies, btw, and not just counting that was off a little bit. They describe totally fictitious events that were brazenly reported in the media as facts anyway. Maybe by the time WW2 rolled around "they" figured they had to actually crack a few eggs to make the omelette they wanted, eh?

In what way am I ministering to people's base instincts with the phrases such as 'any person with a logical mind?' Clearly we have different definitions of demagoguery. I'm not dismissing anyone's arguments because they have an illogical mind, but I might judge that they have an illogical mind after listening to their arguments.

You're going into semantics about my phrase about people having logical minds or not. I've both interacted with people online, and worked with them in person, whom I consider not to have logical minds. These are people who put 2 and 2 together and get 3. They make exceptionally bad scientists and engineers, they can not design experiments, interpret data without bias, or know when it is safe to make a conclusion. In the online sphere, this type of person also makes a lot of mistakes. Alternatively I could have phrased my words along the lines of: there are some people who's views on a matter are not shaped by the weight of evidence, and it's a fool's errand to try and lead such people to truth through objective analysis (perhap's I'm the fool..). But again, semantics..

I think newspapers have been full of inaccuracies for a long time. Just the other day I read an old version of (I think) the guardian, a contemporaneous article about Hitler's last days. It had some errors in it. No conspiracy, as far as I can tell, just a misjudgment of certain dates and so on. I also think that if you went through in an unbiased manner, several years worth of papers from that era, and analysed the numbers in the correct context, this newspaper conspiracy would not hold weight. There are other holes in it too, but I'm not going to waste my time.

[Tesseract]

Posted by idiit (here)

Thursday, July 2, 2015





The Holocaust Narrative: Politics Trumps Science
by
Jim Fetzer

http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/sear...&max-results=1

the 6 million jews killed in the Nazi internment camps figure has actually been rehashed for over 100 years.

There are more than 236 references to 6,000,000 Jews who are either in acute distress or about to be assailed in the newspapers of the world prior to the Nuremberg Tribunal— the first of which appeared in 1890. The number seems to have no basis in fact but to have theological origins—from a disputed passage in Leviticus—as to how many Jews must perish before they can return to “The Promised Land”.

stalin was the sole source of the 6 million hews killed in the internment camps. data from the red cross and other sources at that time fly in direct contradiction to the 6,000,000 figure. stalin was a khazarian; fake jews that hide behind the jewish religion to push the Zionist agenda. anyone who is critical of the khazarians is labled anti-Semite. the true anti-semites are the khazarians. the palastenians have more original ribe of Israel blood than 98% of the current inhabitants of Israel.

The Khazarian 'Jews' are NOT descendants of the 12 Tribes of Israel and their world view and lack of truly, pious spiritual Judaism have created conflict within that religion ever since. To a great extent, these are our current day Zionist Jews (including Neocons, of course) who have formed a world power banking, extortion cult of war and death that has little or nothing to do with being devout adherents of Judaism. These are the folks who think nothing of breaking the law, lying (Kol Nidre), stealing, graft, corruption, assassination, blackmail, extortion or destroying tens of millions of people to get their way.

http://www.rense.com/general83/khaz.htm

First thing we need to know is that Adolf Hitler was the Khazar project. He was actually a grandson of Solomon Major Rothschild who made a child to its serving lady Sikle Gruber. Hitler was financed from British and US banks, even Prescott Bush, grandfather of President Bush was bringing money to Hitler. Many of Hitler's close associates were Khazars. We can mention only a few – Boreman, Rosenbergh, Aichman, creator of missiles Fon Brown. His mistress Eva Brown was from the "lost 13th Jewish tribe.“

His opponents – Stalin, Roosevelt, Truman, and Eisenhower were Khazars.

http://truedemocracy.net/hj32/07.html

I posted some quotes and links. i'll catch hell for denying the lie. do your research. start with the three links I just posted.

germans to this day are not allowed by law to challenge the credibility of the holocaust.

^ if that's not a red flag then what is?

So it wasn't really the Nazis that killed the Jews, it was Stalin, the fake Jew, with a Zionist agenda. Funny then that under Stalin the USSR created Birobidjan, a Jewish state in Russia's far east.

[Tesseract]

Posted by Deega (here)
Hmm!, tons of information on the subject, here's Mark Weber on Holocaust Denial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlUkTtbnPY

And Victor Thorn on Holocaust Hoax Exposed - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfCI7f1KopA

At least, we do have Researchers willing to tackle this touchy subject, interesting!

You have the choice of listening to researchers who have spent countless hours in the archives, who are multilingual, who have examined original material, who have credible scholastic records - and listening to people who can not boast these qualities. Of course, you can listen to both, but it's up to you how to rate the credibility of their position. We probably have different definitions of what constitutes a researcher.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Posted by Tesseract (here)
I'm not dismissing anyone's arguments because they have an illogical mind, but I might judge that they have an illogical mind after listening to their arguments.

Then you are already going to run into problems, like trying to use a colander when what you have need of is a fine sieve. As I explained in the last post, there is, logically speaking, no such thing as an "illogical mind," because you cannot even define this in the same way as you could a logical argument. I am not trying to be pedantic. This really cuts to the heart of whether logic is really being employed or not, because logic is a formal tool and not something that people can just informally "feel" as though they are using in an intuitive way. In reality you will end up judging people and committing the ad hominem fallacy.

I could tell from your very first post that you would begin making divisions between "sides" of the argument, and judging people without considering everything on the table. Just reading about how you require people to have a "logical mind" and some certain level of discernment (which you yourself would of course be the judge of) is enough to see that standards are being set up that have nothing to do with the neutral third party of rigorous logic.

These are people who put 2 and 2 together and get 3. They make exceptionally bad scientists and engineers, they can not design experiments, interpret data without bias, or know when it is safe to make a conclusion.

Most people would probably see kleptomania as "illogical" in an informal way, and actually a mental disorder, and so I can imagine that you would probably say a person with kleptomania would have an "illogical mind." But Albert Einstein was a kleptomaniac. So already we see that your newly-created science of declaring whole brains "illogical" does not make much sense. Really it is not a new science, it is a very old logical fallacy called ad hominem. I know what real logic and reasoning are and I can see fallacies from a mile away, which is why I was reluctant to even post in this thread in the first place.

[Cidersomerset]

David Irvine talks about the Sobibor camp as if no one
knew it was there. He says he found the documentation
to prove it existed, I thought he said five years ago ?
but as the interview is a bit ' rambling ' from subject
to subject , what he is saying is a bit confusing.

He still says some of Auschwitz is a fraud , but at least he
admits many millions were murdered by the Nazi's.



Escape From Sobibor - Classic Escape Movie from 1987 - Full Movie

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=7Icp624jWAI

Published on 10 Apr 2014

Escape from Sobibor is a 1987 British made-for-TV film which
aired on CBS. It is the story of the mass escape from the
extermination camp at Sobibor, the most successful uprising
by Jewish prisoners of German extermination camps (uprisings
also took place at Auschwitz and Treblinka). The film was directed
by Jack Gold and shot in Avala, Yugoslavia (now Serbia).


====================================================
====================================================

I did like how he compared US Home land Security with Nazi Germany and refered
to TPTB behind the scenes. It would be interesting to hear his comments on whether
the US is the 4th Reich and the works of Joseph Farrell and Jim Mars. Though to
be fair he has had enough flack for his views.

US current mil Helmet.......German WW 11 Helmet







====================================================
====================================================

Regular readers and contributors to the many related Holocaust threads posted
on the forum would have seen this bit before but still worth putting here for
anyone who may have missed it or first time viewers.


Re: How the Zionist / Illuminati Manipulated the 6 million Figure
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...688#post933688

I've just re listened to this important BBC interview with David Irvine from 2000....

Two important admissions from David aprox 3 mins 30 secs in when he
says there is no doubt millions of jews were shot and on the eastern front
we have plenty of documentation for that. The other is aprox 18 mins 40
secs in when he says there is no doubt tens if not hundreds of thousands
died at Auschwitz from various causes.

The interview as a whole is quite aggressive and David Irvine tries to
get his point across that although a holocaust happened it is up
for debate about the true facts and details and the fact if you discuss
it you are a holocaust denier.

The problem as I see it as time goes on the truth will become myth
and the many massacres that have happened thru out recorded
sources from all over the world get consigned to the pages of history
only to be repeated again as is happening in the Middle East
and Ukraine today......

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=JF4GFGMNm3g

[loungelizard]

Hello Deega

You said in your thread dealing with similar subject matter that you had only recently become aware of Holocaust denial. If that is true, then you have not even begun to unravel the truth from the lies and deception and propaganda out there. For example, you state:

Posted by Deega (here)
Two links, the first is a serious Research by the Red Cross, where the estimated number of Jews who died in concentration camps were in the order of 271,301 people.

This is not, as you believe, a “serious piece of research by the Red Cross”.

The claim that only 271,000 people died in the Holocaust was published in a Swiss tabloid newspaper (Die Tatt) in 1955.

The IRC has stated categorically that this material falsifies claims that the document originated from the IRC. The letter below, written by the Head of Documentation for the International Red Cross in 1979, explains clearly about the misperception that the IRC posted statistics of 271,000 Holocaust deaths..


COMITE INTERNATIONAL DE LA CROIX-ROUGE

Geneva, 10 May 1979
Fpe/grt

Dear Madam,

We have pleasure in acknowledging receipt of your letter of 12 April concerning the victims of the Second World War, together with the enclosed booklet. We did already have a copy of this document, which is not the only one of its kind. Indeed, the ICRC and several National Societies, in particular, the AmericanRed Cross, have received a great deal of correspondence on this matter.

The booklet in question supports its false allegations by two abridged quotations taken from two documents published by the ICRC:

"Report of the International Committee of the Red
Cross on its activities dueing the Second World War"
(3 volumes)

"The work of the ICRC for civilian detainees in German
Concentration Camps" (1 volume)

These two documents, which we are sending you under separate cover, contain the basic information which the ICRC possesses on the victims of the Second World War.

Unfortunately, we are not able to provide you with the figures you are seeking, since the ICRC has never tried to compile statistics on the victims of the war and has never certified the accuracy of the statistics produced by a third party. In fact, the basic aim of the ICRC is to come to the aid of victims of armed conflicts and not to act as a commission of enquiry or a statistics service.

With regard to the figure of 300,000 victims quoted on page 28 of the document you sent us, on 19 January 1955 the newspaper "Die Tat" published an article (of which a photocopy is enclosed) giving figures for the victims of the Second World War, including that of 300,000.

As you will see upon reading this article, first, the figure of 300,000 was not given by the ICRC and, secondly, it refers only to the _German_ victims (Jews and non-Jews) of the concentration camps. The authors of the booklet have therefore doubly falsified their information, by claiming that the figure relates to all the Jewish deportation victims and by naming the ICRC as its source.

Finally, for your information, we are sending a copy of the ICRC information bulletin "The ICRC in Action" of 12 December 1975, the last page of which mentions the work of the ICRC in concentration camps.

We hope this information will be of use to you.

Yours faithfully,
s/
R. Gaillard-Moret
Head of Documentation
and Dissemination

[loungelizard]

Tesseract

Thanks for the brilliantly written OP . I really appreciate the effort you put into compiling and referencing the material that had impressed you.

What was amazing, when I stumbled across this thread just now, was the way in which hardly any of the replies are addressing the subject matter you introduced! It would be hysterically funny if it wasn't so obvious. We have lots of avoidance tactics, diversions, moral equivalencies (my genocide is bigger and better than your genocide), denial of other genocides, and comparisons which servoe only to distract and muddy the water. No one is engaging with the content of your OP !

This is a piece by the scholar Michael Phillips, the author of White Genocide; Race, Ethnicity and Religion in Dallas, 1841-2001 which may throw some light on what is going on on this thread...

[B]How to be a Revisionist Scholar.

1. Creamed Mush with Fog Sauce -- Never provide evidence for your assertions. In fact, respond to demands for evidence the way Dracula responds to crucifixes. Do anything you can to avoid it. Throw insults. Change the subject. Obfuscate. Laugh derisively. Claim you already gave the evidence or that someone else did. But never provide any evidence yourself (unless you provide an incomplete or incomprehensible citation along with it).

2. Heads-I-Win-Tails-You-Lose -- Demand that all evidence for the Holocaust be proved genuine (dodging any discussion of what that proof would consist of), and also demand that all your unsubstantiated assertions be proved false. That way, you never bear any burden of proof. (originally posted by Mike Stein)

3. Hello, I'm a Cremation Expert -- Claim that the 52 Auschwitz furnaces could not have had the capacity to burn 4,756 corpses per day because modern commercial crematoriums don't have such a capacity. When its pointed out to you that there's no comparison between ordinary commercial crematoriums and those built in the camps, for a variety of reasons -- e.g. coffins were not used, one can cremate more than one corpse in a single retort, etc. -- ignore this and repeat the claim.

4. And I'm a Chemist too! -- Express a series of doubts and claims about the properties of Zyklon-B, the gas used to kill people in Auschwitz gas chambers. For example, claim that Zyklon-B is not an ideal agent for mass gassing, and therefore the Nazis shouldn't have used it and thus they *didn't* use it.
Even better, claim that they *couldn't* have used it because the gas lingering in the chamber after the murders would have killed anyone trying to enter the chambers to remove the corpses. When someone explains to you (countless times) that some of the gas chambers had powerful ventilation systems to remove the gas and in other cases people entering wore gas masks, argue that despite the ventilation there would still somehow be enough residual gas in the chambers to kill people.
Keep waving a DuPont brochure around in an attempt to ward off those who know more about chemistry than you do. Also claim that ventilating the gas would cause problems to individuals downwind. When someone explains to you that the gas is lighter than air, just quietly go away for awhile or change the subject or complain about a mean word they may have used.

5. Sticks and Stones -- If you're being wiped out with evidence and reasoning you cannot refute, you can always take refuge in complaining about the language being used by your adversaries. For example, if they say, "I've already explained that it takes less gas to kill people than lice, and therefore there are fewer cyanide residues remaining on the gas chamber walls than on the delousing chamber walls, you moron," you can respond by complaining about their use of the word "moron."
You can actually evade quite a bit of serious discussion by spending a lot of time condescendingly lecturing the newsgroup about their use of trashy language. But this approach doesn't work very well in building credibility. You may view yourself as an arbiter of social discourse but you'll actually come off like a den-mother scurrying around excoriating the little Cub Scouts to behave themselves.

6. Oh Sorry, I Ate the Last One -- Claim that Jews and other prisoners were not intentionally starved, that they were victims of food shortages just like everybody else. When it is pointed out that neither the camp guards nor people living in the vicinity of the camps starved to death, just claim that this does not prove there was an intentional starvation policy, and that if there is no piece of paper with a written order to starve people, then no starvation occurred.

7. The "What's It Mean?" Spiral of Infinity -- Try to keep your opponents off balance by constantly shifting or questioning the definitions of words. For example, if your opponent states that historians generally agree that 1 million Jews were killed in gas chambers at Auschwitz during the Holocaust, you can ask, what do you mean by "historian" or what do you mean by "Jew" or what do you mean by "agree?"
Alternatively, when confronted with the evidence that Himmler called for the "ausrotten" of the Jews, argue that ausrotten doesn't really mean extermination. When proof of that definition is provided by German dictionaries and German speakers on the newsgroup, just ignore it.

8. Now You See It, Now You Don't -- Argue that the gas chambers never existed because they are not still standing. Of course, by this logic, the Mayflower, Carthage, Jimmy Hoffa, and large portions of the Great Wall never existed. When this is pointed out to you, ignore it.

9. Kafka Was Here -- Argue that the gas chambers never existed because there are no photos or drawings of them. When you are presented with photos and drawings, state that they could not possibly be actual photos/drawings of gas chambers because the gas chambers never existed because there are no photos/drawings of them because they never existed because . . .

10. Fun With Math -- Charge the anti-revisionists with playing numbers games while engaging in them yourself. For example, argue that the "holohoaxers" have changed the estimated number of Jews killed at Auschwitz from 4 million to 1 million. When it's pointed out to you that the 4 million figure was supplied by the Soviets and refers to the total number of victims, not just Jews, and has always been considered ridiculously inflated by non-Soviet historians who have never varied from the 1 million figure for Jews, just repeat that the holohaoxers have changed the number of Jews killed at Auschwitz from 4 million to 1 million and that the Holocaust is therefore a hoax.
The point of this tactic, of course, is to try to make ALL the death figures questionable. If 4 million is unreliable, then 1 million is likewise unreliable, and you just keep revising the numbers downward until you reach zero, and then - poof! - no Holocaust!

11. The Great Leap -- This tactic goes like this: If one piece of testimony about the Holocaust seems unreliable, then ALL testimony about the Holocaust is unreliable. If one Holocaust witness may have recanted something on the stand, then all other Holocaust witnesses are liars. If some camp prisoners did not starve to death, then NONE of them starved to death. etc. But be careful. This is a double-edged sword -- someone may use the well-documented lies of other revisionists to conclude that YOU are a liar as well.

12. But I'm Not Anti-Semitic -- Try to find examples of misdeeds by an individual Jewish person, then imply that this makes all Jews look bad. When you are asked why you think one Jew represents all Jews but that one Christian doesn't represent all Christians, ignore the question.

13. Grab Bag of Idiocy -- Here are a few quick claims you can easily make, although be forewarned that they will immediately make you look like an imbecile: a) Claim that "the Jews" declared war on Hitler (whatever that means), and that anything he did to them was an act of self-defense; b) With absolutely zero supporting evidence, claim that the corpses in the Auschwitz furnaces would have exploded, damaging the furnaces and thereby bringing the corpse cremation figures into question; c) Argue that because the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington DC has a small model of a gas chamber and not a full-scale model, this somehow proves that gas chambers did not exist during WWII; d) Argue that the existence of a brothel in Auschwitz means there could not have been gas chambers there.

14. If you don't want to look like a total buffoon, there's always the pseudo-academic, above-the-fray approach. With a huge dose of arrogance and superiority, explain that you are neither a revisionist nor any other "label", merely someone with a healthy skepticism about everything, including Holocaust history (ALL of it), and that you are conducting your own research to determine for yourself whether certain Holocaust incidents actually took place. Pretend to be totally impartial (despite the avalanche of Holocaust evidence you would encounter the minute you actually began any legitimate research), but in your posts only question the Holocaust historians' statements, not revisionists' statements.

15. Alternatively claim that: a) the Jews in the camps died as a result of allied bombing; b) the Jews weren't killed in the camps but were sent to Russia; and c) the Jews never even went to the camps because the railroad capacity was insufficient. When someone points out that these are mutually exclusive, and that it would be a neat trick for allied bombs in 1944 to result in the deaths of Jews in 1942, ignore it.

16. As for the motive behind the Holocaust "hoax", claim that the Holocaust was invented near the end of WWII by people who foresaw the establishment of the state of Israel, and also foresaw that Israel would face years of conflict with its neighbors, and also foresaw the consequent need for U.S. military and financial aid to Israel, and also foresaw possible public opposition to such aid, and so they invented a huge hoax with thousands of phony witnesses and documents so that those who might oppose the aid to Israel would feel sorry for Jews and wouldn't oppose the aid. When someone points out to you that this is sheer idiocy and that acts of genocide do not automatically turn on the aid spigot to the victims, ignore them.

17. Although all of your arguments will be consistently blown to smithereens, just wait a few days or weeks and then re-post them.

18. Remember that the revisionist community is peopled mainly by racists, white-supremacists, Israel-bashers, and Nazis. This means that everyone except these kinds of people will dismiss you. But don't let that stop you. Don't let your Fellini-esque, internally inconsistent, un-researched, hypocritical distortions and lies prevent you from continuing to post. After all, you're fighting for the truth (as you'd like it to be).

[Tesseract]

Thanks Loungelizard,

Nice work exposing the 'red cross' material for what it is. This is a good example of the kind of isolated exhibit that holocaust doubters are prone to cling to, rather than adopt an all encompassing embrace that covers the totality of the evidence.


I think that a part of the reason why some people lean towards the revisionist arguments is that they are simply not really aware that the totality of evidence is really quite extensive, multi-sourced and detailed. All they have in their head is this '6 million' figure that has been given to them - and when someone comes along with a specific, credible sounding point of evidence that, prima facie, contradicts the official story, they don't have that totality of evidence to compare it to. This was one of the big reasons why I started this thread - to show that holocaust researchers really have done a lot of work that gives a sound basis to their figures. I think a lot of the casual revisionists are victims of their own curiosity for iconoclastic narratives, and I don't really harbour any animosity towards them. But, the frequency of revisionist statements, often under the guise of suggestion or question, needs some redress. It threatens to grow into something quite ugly. You do see such comments on this forum sometimes, and I think it does not hurt to have this thread as a 'reply', nascent to the forum, on record.


The other thing, is that it's kind of a big thing to be wrong about. And to be so wrong, robs one of what is one of the biggest lessons of the 20th century, not to get too preachy about it. Also, acceptance/non-acceptance of the holocaust changes the entire context of WW2 in very sublime and powerful ways, which I would struggle to put to words. Anyway, I do hope that some people see the honest history a little clearer after going through the OP and visiting the other thread I linked. Some of the replies here have indeed been way off the point, I tried to pre-empt them, but never mind. Plenty of people read these pages as 'guests', so hopefully someone somewhere gets something from it.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Posted by Tesseract (here)
The other thing, is that it's kind of a big thing to be wrong about. And to be so wrong, robs one of what is one of the biggest lessons of the 20th century, not to get too preachy about it.

What lesson is that, in your own words?

[Deega]

Posted by loungelizard (here)
Hello Deega

You said in your thread dealing with similar subject matter that you had only recently become aware of Holocaust denial. If that is true, then you have not even begun to unravel the truth from the lies and deception and propaganda out there. For example, you state:

Posted by Deega (here)
Two links, the first is a serious Research by the Red Cross, where the estimated number of Jews who died in concentration camps were in the order of 271,301 people.

This is not, as you believe, a “serious piece of research by the Red Cross”.

The claim that only 271,000 people died in the Holocaust was published in a Swiss tabloid newspaper (Die Tatt) in 1955.

The IRC has stated categorically that this material falsifies claims that the document originated from the IRC. The letter below, written by the Head of Documentation for the International Red Cross in 1979, explains clearly about the misperception that the IRC posted statistics of 271,000 Holocaust deaths..


COMITE INTERNATIONAL DE LA CROIX-ROUGE

Geneva, 10 May 1979
Fpe/grt

Dear Madam,

We have pleasure in acknowledging receipt of your letter of 12 April concerning the victims of the Second World War, together with the enclosed booklet. We did already have a copy of this document, which is not the only one of its kind. Indeed, the ICRC and several National Societies, in particular, the AmericanRed Cross, have received a great deal of correspondence on this matter.

The booklet in question supports its false allegations by two abridged quotations taken from two documents published by the ICRC:

"Report of the International Committee of the Red
Cross on its activities dueing the Second World War"
(3 volumes)

"The work of the ICRC for civilian detainees in German
Concentration Camps" (1 volume)

These two documents, which we are sending you under separate cover, contain the basic information which the ICRC possesses on the victims of the Second World War.

Unfortunately, we are not able to provide you with the figures you are seeking, since the ICRC has never tried to compile statistics on the victims of the war and has never certified the accuracy of the statistics produced by a third party. In fact, the basic aim of the ICRC is to come to the aid of victims of armed conflicts and not to act as a commission of enquiry or a statistics service.

With regard to the figure of 300,000 victims quoted on page 28 of the document you sent us, on 19 January 1955 the newspaper "Die Tat" published an article (of which a photocopy is enclosed) giving figures for the victims of the Second World War, including that of 300,000.

As you will see upon reading this article, first, the figure of 300,000 was not given by the ICRC and, secondly, it refers only to the _German_ victims (Jews and non-Jews) of the concentration camps. The authors of the booklet have therefore doubly falsified their information, by claiming that the figure relates to all the Jewish deportation victims and by naming the ICRC as its source.

Finally, for your information, we are sending a copy of the ICRC information bulletin "The ICRC in Action" of 12 December 1975, the last page of which mentions the work of the ICRC in concentration camps.

We hope this information will be of use to you.

Yours faithfully,
s/
R. Gaillard-Moret
Head of Documentation
and Dissemination

Hey Thanks LougeLizard, question for you, who would loose if the International Red Cross (IRC) Report was authentic?, the Jews Nation would unfortunatley!

Now you would concur with me that in light of this potential lost, what would the Jews Leaders do?, they want the IRC Report nul, would you think that ''money'' wouldn't be a problem to have a IRC Bureaucrate say that the IRC was nul. If I were from the Jewish Nation, I would try my best to have this information nullified, don't you think?

Blessing to you!

[Deega]

Posted by loungelizard (here)
Tesseract

Thanks for the brilliantly written OP . I really appreciate the effort you put into compiling and referencing the material that had impressed you.

Hi LoungLizard, very supportive on the OP of the Tread, great of you. And thanks for the definition, and characteristics of ''Revisionist'', I never did, take the time to have a, look at it. I didn't thought that I may at times be partially revisionist. But, the point that I would like to make is try to bring in another version of this ''tragedy''. The Germans, Russians, and many other ethnics Nations committed horrible crime in the 2WW.

Here is another information on the subject you might like to read, I don't know if you had ever read it. This info was from the David Ickle Discussion Forum.

Blessing to you!

ALLIED MILITARY POLICE HQ
VIENNA
1.10.1948
MEMO Nr:31/48

The Allied Committee of Inquiry has to date proven that no poison gas
was ever used to kill prisoners in the following concentration camps
Bergen_belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flassenburg, Gross-Rosen,
Mathausen, and satellite camps Natzweiler, Neuengamme Niederhagen
(Wewelsburg, ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthol, Thereselenstadt.

In all cases where gassings were alleged, it could be proven that
torture had been used to extract confessions and witnesses have lied.

Any former inmate who, during their debriefing continues to allege
that poison gas was used to murder people (in particular jews), are to
be reported to this office and if they insist on lying further, they
are to be charged with perjury.

Signed Major Müller
Commanding officer
Allied Military Police Vienna:

witnessed by
Lieutenant Lachout MP.


Typhus, Not Poison Gas

If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau, Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen perish? Were they tortured to death or deliberately starved? The answers to these questions are known as well.

As Dr. Larson and other Allied medical men discovered, the chief cause of death at Dachau, Belsen and the other camps was disease, above all typhus, an old and terrible scourge of mankind that until recently flourished in places where populations were crowded together in circumstances where public health measures were unknown or had broken down. Such was the case in the overcrowded internment camps in Germany at war's end, where, despite such measures as systematic delousing, quarantine of the sick and cremation of the dead, the virtual collapse of Germany's food, transport, and public health systems led to catastrophe.

Perhaps the most authoritative statement of the facts as to typhus and mortality in the camps has been made by Dr. John E. Gordon, M.D., Ph.D., a professor of preventive medicine and epidemiology at the Harvard University School of Public Health, who was with US forces in Germany in 1945. Dr. Gordon reported in 1948 that "The outbreaks in concentration camps and prisons made up the great bulk of typhus infection encountered in Germany." Dr. Gordon summarized the causes for the outbreaks as follows: [5]

Germany in the spring months of April and May [1945] was an astounding sight, a mixture of humanity travelling this way and that, homeless, often hungry and carrying typhus with them ...

Germany was in chaos. The destruction of whole cities and the path left by advancing armies produced a disruption of living conditions contributing to the spread of the disease. Sanitation was low grade, public utilities were seriously disrupted, food supply and food distribution was poor, housing was inadequate and order and discipline were everywhere lacking. Still more important, a shifting of populations was occurring such as few countries and few times have experienced.

Dr. Gordon's findings are corroborated by Dr. Russell Barton, today a psychiatrist of international repute, who entered Bergen-Belsen with British forces as a young medical student in 1945. Barton, who volunteered to care for the diseased survivors, testified under sworn oath in a Toronto courtroom in 1985 that "Thousands of prisoners who died at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II weren't deliberately starved to death but died from a rash of diseases." [6]

Dr. Barton further testified that on entering the camp he had credited stories of deliberate starvation but decided such stories were untrue after inspecting the well equipped kitchens and the meticulously maintained ledgers, dating back to 1942, of food cooked and dispensed each day.

Despite noisily publicized claims and widespread popular notions to the contrary, no researcher has been able to document a German policy of extermination through starvation in the German camps.
http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/libcamps.shtml

[loungelizard]

Posted by Deega (here)
Hey Thanks LougeLizard, question for you, who would loose if the International Red Cross (IRC) Report was authentic?, the Jews Nation would unfortunatley!

Now you would concur with me that in light of this potential lost, what would the Jews Leaders do?, they want the IRC Report nul, would you think that ''money'' wouldn't be a problem to have a IRC Bureaucrate say that the IRC was nul. If I were from the Jewish Nation, I would try my best to have this information nullified, don't you think?

Blessing to you!

Hello Deega

But it's not true...so your question is meaningless.

But, let's take your idea as a hypothesis; we now have to test it, try to disprove it and the modify it, integrating what we learned from the testing. So here we go.

Your “theory” conveniently overlooks the testimonies, personal diary entries, speeches, conferences and memoranda of the Nazis themselves. For example;

Hoess, the Commandant at Auschwitz, stated “I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and burning, and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and disease making a total dead of about 3,000,000.” Or did the Jews somehow make him say that?

Goebbels stated in his private diaries (7000 pages found in 1992 in an archive in Moscow) that 60% of the European Jews had to be eliminated. 60% of the pre-war population of 11 million (estimated by the Nazis themselves) is 6.6 million. Or did the Jews fake all 7000 pages of that?

Actually, researchers in the USSR have recently suggested that the figure is actually higher than 6 million. Or did the Jews make them say that too?

If your to your theory was true, the Red Cross must be a remarkably gullible and corrupt organisation! In 1944 they fell for a hoax engineered by the Nazis at Theresienstadt ghetto, which successfully hid the truth of “the Final Solution” and this allowed the Nazis to continue deporting the Jews to Auschwitz. Why would they do that if they were in the pay of the Jews?

The Red Cross actually did relatively little to save Jews during the Holocaust. They discounted reports of the organised genocide, and justified this by stating that if they had helped the Jews, other prisoners would have been disadvantaged - and also that because it is a Swiss organisation, its neutrality would have been compromised.
The Red Cross justified its inaction by suggesting that aiding Jewish prisoners would harm its ability to help other Allied POWs. In addition, the Red Cross claimed that if it would take Today, the Red Cross acknowledges its passivity during the Holocaust and has apologized for this - here is the statement https://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/d...isc/6ayg86.htm

Or did the Jews make them write that?

I could go on with pages of material disproving your theory...

The only 'conspiracy' here is the twisting of facts by those who have a drum to bang in order to spread their unsavoury ideology by blaming the age-old scapegoat. Yawn. There are conspiracies out there that need your attention; for example, how about looking into the reasons for the lack of response of the US and Europe to the Holocaust? Don't waste time on this - it's far too well documented not to be true – if only you'd bother to look. About 11 million people died in the Holocaust. Fact.

Unless, of course, the reason you do not want to approach this with an open mind is because you are feeding something within you, which is not a pleasant thought. In your desperation to hang the blame on the Jewish people, you are having to resort to fantasy. It might make an interesting movie screenplay, but unless you have proof for this, it is just a little fiction that you've concocted. The question is, why do you feel such a need to do such a thing?

Are you seriously saying that “the Jews” paid lots of money to get the IRC to write a report that hardly anyone has ever heard of? Is that really likely? What an utter waste of money that was! Had you ever even heard of this story from a 1955 tabloid newspaper before you read about it on some extremist site such as codoh or ihr?

That's not how serious historical research works. You don't get to come up with your dream scenario and then scrabble around desperately trying to make it sound plausible. You can't write a script blaming an age-old scapegoat without a shred of proof without expecting your assertions to be utterly ignored.

Oh my. Deega, if you continue down this path, you will disappear into a spiral of self-indulgent nihilism where nothing is real or true - and you will be very unhappy, and I truly don't wish that for you.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Deega – just had another thought ;-) May I ask what your source was for the IRC story ?

I only ask because I remember an interview (I think it may have been on this forum a long time ago) that one figure who seems to be respected by the alternative community – George Green – told exactly the same Red Cross story. He was completely taken in by both the Swiss newspaper reporting the 300,000 AND by the Theresienstadt hoax.

(This is the same George Green whose journal The Phoenix Liberator printed the Hatonn material: I believe Green said that his denial of the holocaust came from the channelled writings of Hatonn in works such as “The Trillion Dollar Lie: The Holocaust” which is a muddled mish mash of bigoted hate-filled rants and sheer ignorance. Sadly, Hatonn was an ET obsessed with Jews: I took one edition of the Phoenix Liberator at random and the Find facility identified 90 incidents of the word “Jew” in just 6 pages of this journal...)

[Rocky_Shorz]

Jews are no different than Muslims...

both have their terrorist that would disappear if they stood together as one people and made it happen...

We've discussed this subject again and again the same few people stepping forward to argue everything we were tought in school is the only truth worth knowing...


admitting Jews killed Jews to fulfill prophecy of 6 million had to die before they would have a nation, is the first step

realizing that now that they have the nation it can be lost from creating a false scenario to create it...

most jews who died in WW II were worked to death...

like Scrooges employees?

Posted by Andrew (here)
Clip from December 26, 2007 - guest Eustace Mullins on the Jeff Rense Program.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=EVlQ5JZUq3c

I'm not jumping back in to another thread on the same subject, regurgitating the info does not change the facts.[COLOR="red"]

[The Crone]

Me three.

And then there are all the other holocausts, which due to the fact that the finger would point clearly to the USA, do not even get referred to as holocausts.

For instance: how many people died in Iraq circa 1991 to 2015? At least one million civilians died in Iraq just on account of the de-stabilization of the region after Iraq War II was launched on March 23 2003.

[Rocky_Shorz]

a year ago when Israel was dropping Thermo Nuclear warheads on Gaza brought me to the edge, so many lies, and yet they have the "God given right" to kill anyone they feel necessary to continue their control.

They attacked America on 9/11 using the same warheads, and it is beyond hushed...

70,000 New Yorkers now showing health problems to the exposure to the aftermath.

Gaza was civilians who had no where to escape this attack...


if you want me to stop pointing out the lies of the Holocaust then come clean for the atrocities committed against Gazans, Americans and Japanese and bring those responsible to justice.

[Deega]

Responses to Post 33 from Lounglizard.


Thanks Loungelizard, the IRC was at the time a Charity Organization, in search of money to run their operation, and you honestly think that they couldn’t be invited to reconsidered their appraisal in 1944?, if you allow, I would have my doubts.

Do you know if Hoess, the Commandant of Aushwitz, was ever under torture before his assertion, we don’t know that, and if so, your point isn’t valid!

Actually, researchers in the USSR have recently suggested that the figure is actually higher than 6 million. Or did the Jews make them say that too?

May you share the link to this research?

If your to your theory was true, the Red Cross must be a remarkably gullible and corrupt organisation! In 1944 they fell for a hoax engineered by the Nazis at Theresienstadt ghetto, which successfully hid the truth of “the Final Solution” and this allowed the Nazis to continue deporting the Jews to Auschwitz. Why would they do that if they were in the pay of the Jews?

I have read the IRC was undercontroled by the Nazi (Interior Ministry) during 1944, maybe, it’s probably the reason they did what you say, a link would be appreciated though.

I could go on with pages of material disproving your theory...,

Yes great, I have post some links here, I doubt if you ever bother to have a look, and be open minded to what other authors have produced over the years, they must not all be wrong, don’t you think..!

The only 'conspiracy' here is the twisting of facts by those who have a drum to bang in order to spread their unsavoury ideology by blaming the age-old scapegoat. Yawn. There are conspiracies out there that need your attention; for example, how about looking into the reasons for the lack of response of the US and Europe to the Holocaust? Don't waste time on this - it's far too well documented not to be true – if only you'd bother to look. About 11 million people died in the Holocaust. Fact.

Have a look at Dennis Wise document at http://thegreateststorynevertold.tv/...w-dennis-wise/, at least, you will have the pleasure of hearing why the US and Europe had no response on the Holocaust. Please have a look, you will noticed that other people (Russians, Germans, Polish, etc.) suffered enough!

Unless, of course, the reason you do not want to approach this with an open mind is because you are feeding something within you, which is not a pleasant thought. In your desperation to hang the blame on the Jewish people, you are having to resort to fantasy. It might make an interesting movie screenplay, but unless you have proof for this, it is just a little fiction that you've concocted. The question is, why do you feel such a need to do such a thing?

Whoua, the only thing I was trying to do is, try to reach out stories of the tragedy that wasn’t said.

‘’Blame on the Jewish People’’, don’t you think that you're going overboard!

And I resorting to fantasy, well, all the links that I put in this Tread and the other Tread, were brought up by people who were eager to present their logic on the subject. No proof will ever be enough for you, you’re an unconditional believer, and no-one will have you believe otherwise, and mind you, I was not trying to distract you from your conviction, only searching for other stories that have been told from the TPB.

Are you seriously saying that “the Jews” paid lots of money to get the IRC to write a report that hardly anyone has ever heard of? Is that really likely? What an utter waste of money that was! Had you ever even heard of this story from a 1955 tabloid newspaper before you read about it on some extremist site such as codoh or ihr?

Either I’m naïve or you are! As you know, money may buy whatever it is! Unfortunately, never heard of ''codoh'' or ''Ihr''!

That's not how serious historical research works. You don't get to come up with your dream scenario and then scrabble around desperately trying to make it sound plausible. You can't write a script blaming an age-old scapegoat without a shred of proof without expecting your assertions to be utterly ignored.

Well, all the links that were in, aren’t good enough for you?

Deega – just had another thought ;-) May I ask what your source was for the IRC story ?

Not wanting to be disrespectful, you didn’t even noticed the different links that I have posted here, and in the other Tread, the IRC Story was in the Alternative Media ‘’Before it’s News’’.

Blessing to you!

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
admitting Jews killed Jews to fulfill prophecy of 6 million had to die before they would have a nation, is the first step

This would explain why there were already fake articles in the 1910's and 1930's saying that "6 million" were being killed or driven out of Russia or whatever the old claim was.

I don't recognize this as a Christian prophecy so this must be something from the Jewish scriptures which were not included in the Old Testament.

Just curious but do you have the scriptural references off hand? If not I can look for them myself. Discussing this sort of thing may be illegal in Europe but the world is still big enough that I'm sure someone would have figured out why this 6 million number seems so important to propagandize.

[Rocky_Shorz]

The 6 million Jews must die in a fiery offering to their blood thirsty Tribal diety YHWH comes from the Torah...

irans last president offered to give them what they want, all it would take is a nuke...

Too bad they came up with an agreement now so the prophesy might never be fulfilled...

A good prophecy is one that is prevented, like a recent one by Nostradumbass...

Is it a coincidence through divine Destiny a non bloodline King named David of the holy lands first occupied by the 12 tribes, has shown up at this exact moment in history? Lands dividing Israel and Iran controlled by God's messenger... His whispers heard by both sides by those who matter, the lunatics thinking they must create prophecy are deaf to God's wisdom... These religious leaders are the true evil in this world... wolves in sheeps clothing... They mean nothing...

But no matter how hard they try, his whispers create the path unraveling for the world...

Lies mean nothing when truths are known...

[Deega]

Hey Rocky, you very well put this, quoting you.

a year ago when Israel was dropping Thermo Nuclear warheads on Gaza brought me to the edge, so many lies, and yet they have the "God given right" to kill anyone they feel necessary to continue their control.

They attacked America on 9/11 using the same warheads, and it is beyond hushed...

70,000 New Yorkers now showing health problems to the exposure to the aftermath.

Gaza was civilians who had no where to escape this attack...

It's uncomprehensible that a Nation can kill children as they feel right, hopefully, this ''God Given Right'' will come to an end at some point in time. Who will bring this Nation Leaders to reason?, the US stopping financing maybe!