SNOW CIRCLES ...instead of CROP CIRCLES

[hollylindin]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

The alternative to drawing conclusions based on evidence ("needing proof") is what exactly and how is that proven to get better results?

I just don't think it's about "better" or "worse" - I don't think any of this is. I think it's about what feels right to the person. Relying entirely on external evidence is an easy way for one to be less proactive in connecting to their inner self and finding what is really important on the inside. I feel all of this is just one big distraction.

<3

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by hollylindin

I just don't think it's about "better" or "worse" - I don't think any of this is. I think it's about what feels right to the person. Relying entirely on external evidence is an easy way for one to be less proactive in connecting to their inner self and finding what is really important on the inside. I feel all of this is just one big distraction.

<3

Well I most strongly disagree. It is about results. What bears out good and reliable results? Examining evidence, asking questions, getting answers, conducting experiments, checking results, or "how we feel about it"?

"How we feel about it" creates varied and unreliable results. The unvarnished neurological truth of the matter is "How we feel about it" has more to do with your blood sugar than about the truth of a given matter. I'm sorry, but that is just the reality of that business. Something I learned in what I now view as "the hard way". Everyone is welcome to learn it that way as well although I can't really recommend it.

[hollylindin]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

Well I most strongly disagree. It is about results. What bears out good and reliable results? Examining evidence, asking questions, getting answers, conducting experiments, checking results, or "how we feel about it"?

But you're still saying how YOU feel about it; isn't THAT based on blood sugar as well?

We differ in opinion, TrainedObserver. And that's okay! That doesn't mean we can't be friends; that doesn't mean we are enemies. It just means that - based on the world we each live in, based on the experiences we've both had, based on who we are as souls - we see things from a different perspective. Maybe someday, you'll see the world from my angle - maybe someday, I'll see the world from yours.

Your vision of "good and reliable results" IS examining evidence, asking questions, getting answers, conducting experiments, and checking results; MY vision of "good and reliable results" is reading and absorbing, asking questions (we have that in common! ), looking inside, meditation, and reflection upon my own past experiences or intuitive feelings and finding how it applies now.

We all have a path to truth; it's just that said paths may look a little different. And I appreciate that difference - it surely makes the world interesting! Could you imagine how boring and uneventful the world would be if everything you said to people was always agreed with?! Some of the most passionate conversations, where the most answers are found, are those that stem from disagreements. (And some of the most passionate conversations, where the most answers are found, are those that stem from agreements. )

We are all one, TrainedObserver!

<3

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by hollylindin

But you're still saying how YOU feel about it; isn't THAT based on blood sugar as well?
<3

No. Let's think about it this way. Say you have a car. Do you take it to a mechanic who is schooled in automotive mechanics, who will examine the evidence, make conclusions based on the evidence, and then make the appropriate repairs? Or do you take it to a man who meditates on what might be the cars problem and based on how he feels at the moment may or may not replace some part in the car for no real mechanical reason?

The "scientific method" is what we are talking about vs. what exactly?

The Internet, the method by which we are communicating, the myriad machines that make it up, was designed and is maintained through science and not through meditation, looking within, or revealed knowledge, nor could it ever be.

The evidence that Crop Circles are created by human beings through the use of rather prosaic mechanical methods is there for all to see. Some of the makers are more than willing to tell and explain all about it, but you have to have an open mind and the willingness to examine the evidence without bias.

The reluctance to let go of the paranormal explanation for something by people who claim to be on some sort of spiritual journey to the truth is incredibly disconcerting but not surprising to me for the simple reason I did the same thing for many years. I understand where you are coming from after a fashion. However, at some point the passion for the truth must overtake any pet theories or ideas that we might have or it isn't a pursuit of truth at all. This can very difficult, depending on the subject, or at least it was for me.

As I've said before, believe what you will, but at least look at all of the evidence available and revise your conclusions as necessary. For your sake.

Testing of Crop Circles
How to work out a crop circle is man made
The science and "experts" exposed
Crop Circles being made

[Majorion]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

believe what you will, but at least look at all of the evidence available and revise your conclusions as necessary. For your sake.

It seems you're extra passionate about this trainedobserver, but what exactly are you suggesting, are you simply refuting specifically the snow circles discussed here, or are you generalizing a conclusion that ALL crop circles are fake (man made)? I'm assuming the latter?

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by hollylindin

The bottom line is, you feel very strongly about that, TrainedObserver, and I respect that. You have your reasons. But please be respectful of others' opinions, as they have their reasons, too.
<3

I have been respectful. Your caution is unnecessary and directed toward the wrong individual. I have stated my opinions and given my reasons for them along with enough information for anyone to review the evidence themselves. I have answered the vague responses with specific case evidence as with the orb hoax.

[hollylindin]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

I have been respectful. Your caution is unnecessary and directed toward the wrong individual.

My message was really for everyone - in seeing that I am respectful toward you and your opinion, others will notice that as well and respond in kind. It wasn't really a "caution", as it was only my way of reaching out to you and showing support.

<3

[Soulcrafter]

Originally Posted by waitinginthewings

The problem I have is that this theory does not explain how a crop circle can happen in a matter of minutes

Show me one formation you think appeared in a few minutes. Thx in advance.

[TRANCOSO]

Show me one formation you think appeared in a few minutes. Thx in advance.

One fine day an RAF jet flew over Stonehenge. It happened to be a favourite spot of the pilot, so he looked down & saw everything was normal.
45 minutes later, approaching from the opposite direction, the pilot noticed something had changed in the landscape.
To his astonishment he saw a huge - as in HUGE - crop formation had appeared, now known as the (first) Julia Circle.

I'm not gonna do your homework for you, but being the expert you pretend to be, you undoubtedly know exactly what I'm talking about.
Mind you, we have here a trained observer (sic), a RAF jetfighter pilot, a 45 minute time interval & a HUGE & complex formation, that - on paper - can only be drawn by a computer.

Now count the circles & do the math.

[Soulcrafter]

Originally Posted by TRANCOSO

One fine day an RAF jet flew over Stonehenge. It happened to be a favourite spot of the pilot, so he looked down & saw everything was normal.
45 minutes later, approaching from the opposite direction, the pilot noticed something had changed in the landscape.
To his astonishment he saw a huge - as in HUGE - crop formation had appeared, now known as the (first) Julia Circle.

I'm not gonna do your homework for you, but being the expert you pretend to be, you undoubtedly know exactly what I'm talking about.
Mind you, we have here a trained observer (sic), a RAF jetfighter pilot, a 45 minute time interval & a HUGE & complex formation, that - on paper - can only be drawn by a computer.

Now count the circles & do the math.

The answer is very simple.

You need enough sunlight to reflect on the formation otherwise you gonna fly right over it and you won't even notice it.

Here is a video that explains it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTKmaf7H8jk

Big cropcircle there, can you spot it? No, because there is not enough light reflecting it.

Example:


Another example:


now you see me...

Different angle:


now you don't...


Magical isn't it?

[TRANCOSO]

The answer is very simple.
You need enough sunlight to reflect on the formation otherwise you gonna fly right over it and you won't even notice it.

Bye, bye!

[Soulcrafter]

Originally Posted by TRANCOSO

Bye, bye!

For some people nothing will ever be proof of something, bye bye
you don't even seem to care to give an explanation why you act like this. Yawn DP
I would suggest to find out for yourself, get in an airplane with your camera and see for yourself.

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by Soulcrafter

For some people nothing will ever be proof of something, bye bye
you don't even seem to care to give an explanation why you act like this. Yawn DP
I would suggest to find out for yourself, get in an airplane with your camera and see for yourself.

Good job on that one Soulcrafter. I really think the interchange you had with that poster typifies the "true believer" syndrome. Nothing will persuade a person with true believer syndrome. Even a real crop circle making pilot explaining the phenomena of the 'suddenly appearing' circle with tremendous examples! Amazing and a bit scary isn't it? You just have to laugh, well 'cause crying looks so girlie!

[TRANCOSO]

I have seen tons of reliable evidence to the contrary.

TONS of reliable evidence?! Now you make me curious. And where can I find these tons of reliable evidence, exactly? And who is the judge upon the reliability of this so-called evidence?

Often, people who REALLY investigate crop circles discover the truth and become crop circle makers themselves.

So people who REALLY investigate crop circles discover 'the truth' & become circle makers themselves. Just like that. Overnight. They go to sleep as a scientist & the next morning they wake up as skilled artists. They just KNOW that, because obviously one can't practice crop circle making in the backyard. You need at least a field with a crop. That's only there between May & September. Need I go on?

And anybody who doesn't discover 'the truth', isn't REALLY investigating crop circles!

The ad hominem attack. A waste of time and space.

Than let me waste some more time & space by stating that I haven't read such a load of BS on crop circles as I read in your posts, for a very, very, very long time. Its troll-like disinformation. Utter BS!

Please don't make assumptions about me and trainedobserver.

Show me one formation which supposedly appeared in the blink of an eye....

Dear Soulcrafter, I do whatever I please when I smell a pile of BS.

I ain't gonna show you anything. Just do your homework, as I've done.

And that's all I have to say. I haven't got time for this kind of energy sucking. Bye, bye & have a nice life.

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by TRANCOSO

TONS of reliable evidence?! Now you make me curious. And where can I find these tons of reliable evidence, exactly? And who is the judge upon the reliability of this so-called evidence?

Please review my posts to this thread. A source containing hours and hours of material is waiting for your review.

Originally Posted by TRANCOSO

So people who REALLY discover 'the truth' become circle makers themselves. Just like that. Overnight.

Uh ... in a word. No.

Originally Posted by TRANCOSO

They go to sleep as a scientist & the next morning they wake up as skilled artists.

Actually I think they are mostly stoned kids trying to find some spiritual or paranormal connection. The transition to crop circle maker/artist then isn't that big of a stretch.

Originally Posted by TRANCOSO

And anybody who doesn't discover 'the truth', isn't REALLY investigating crop circles!

Well ... that is another logical fallacy and certainly one that I have not made here in this forum or anywhere else that I recall.

Your comments suggest to me that you have not reviewed the opposing views evidence. It is dangerous to formulate opinions based on one-sided information. I invite you or anyone else to review all of the evidence before drawing your conclusions. I have shared my opinion based on my investigation. If you disagree with me, well fine, I won't stoop to insulting you for it. I would just encourage you to keep looking at it.

[truthseekers]

[QUOTE=mntruthseeker;206433]

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

I doubt anyone is going to want to hear this but from all that I have been able to gather, complex crop circles are created by human artists. I think these snow circles are just more of the same.

Matthew Williams is a crop circle maker and documentary maker in England. He has a YouTube channel called truthseeker666 with numerous videos describing how crop circles are actually made. He also has the absolute best 3 hour crop circle documentary there that anyone interested in the phenomena simply must watch.

Oh well, guess I'm pretty guilible cause I still believe that they are not all man made no matter what you wrote. In fact 2 of the well known researchers were murdered and I wonder why someone would want them to shut up ?

Please dont hold it against me. I dont believe in the 666 for the mark of the beast.............scare tactic symbol.

Hello mention the devil and he shall appear. hehe... I am the Matthew Williams u speak of. Someone told me you were chatting about me in here so I thought I would show up.

The 666 in truthseekers is just a youtube thing as truthseekers on its own name was already taken. 666 is catchy and makes people think.... oooh whats all that about. Whilst some people want to demonise me, i dont feel like much of a demon, unless you try to wake me any day before noon!

I am personally not impressed by the recent snow circle activity as it centres around Mr De Brouke who always seems to have "things" happening around him. If you ask me its him doing this stuff and to date he has only had gullible researchers around him liek Nancy Talbott. She wont speak to me because I have dared her to come out with us and she is too much of a believer to come out and see the truth for herself.

Yes anyone who wants the truth should trawl through the Circlemakers video on my channel. I do my best with facts and foul language and severe attitude to discuss the crop circle subject I love so much. I hope you get to see though that I love circles, I just dislike the nonsense surrounding circles from people who call themselves researcehrs but who are really just proclaimers who do no real research. I believe in the paranormal. Also I believe crop circles attract paranormal thinsg hence why we do them. People are welcome and encouraged to take part in the magic and see for themselves. That is what crop circles is all about, unsigned magical art which gives people positive strange experiences. Thats the real story the researchers DONT WANT YOU TO HEAR!

If you have any serious questions and arent going to attack me on here I will answer all the questions I can for you.
Matthew

[mntruthseeker]

my remark about 666 is just as it is................to me its just a number and what ever reason you decide to add it is fine with me.............


Maybe seeing as you showed up, you would like to explain to us how you think the "snow circle" happened to be done. Is it fake snow and wheat sprayed white ahead of time or what ?

I can't imagine snow not melting and regardless of anything you may say, I believe that at least 20 % of crop circles are not done by anyone here or do you think we are alone on this planet ?

I dont take to swearing as its just not part of me.

[truthseekers]

Originally Posted by mntruthseeker

my remark about 666 is just as it is................to me its just a number and what ever reason you decide to add it is fine with me.............


Maybe seeing as you showed up, you would like to explain to us how you think the "snow circle" happened to be done. Is it fake snow and wheat sprayed white ahead of time or what ?

I can't imagine snow not melting and regardless of anything you may say, I believe that at least 20 % of crop circles are not done by anyone here or do you think we are alone on this planet ?

.

To state that you will not be interested in any possibilities I give means you are playing the same game many crop circles researchers play which is that no matter how much evidence is given to them they will defy it and go against it. I dont go with this sort of position.

No i dont think it is wheap sprayed white. Its interesting that you use the 20% argument which is basically you picking up and repeating the statements of crop circle researchers. the latest figures from this years say more like 5% may be real. What next year... none are real. I think it just comes down to the quality of the researh which has been helped along by circlemakers such as ourselves helping teh researchers to see the facts.

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

No. Let's think about it this way. Say you have a car. Do you take it to a mechanic who is schooled in automotive mechanics, who will examine the evidence, make conclusions based on the evidence, and then make the appropriate repairs? Or do you take it to a man who meditates on what might be the cars problem and based on how he feels at the moment may or may not replace some part in the car for no real mechanical reason?

The "scientific method" is what we are talking about vs. what exactly?

The Internet, the method by which we are communicating, the myriad machines that make it up, was designed and is maintained through science and not through meditation, looking within, or revealed knowledge, nor could it ever be.

The evidence that Crop Circles are created by human beings through the use of rather prosaic mechanical methods is there for all to see. Some of the makers are more than willing to tell and explain all about it, but you have to have an open mind and the willingness to examine the evidence without bias.

The reluctance to let go of the paranormal explanation for something by people who claim to be on some sort of spiritual journey to the truth is incredibly disconcerting but not surprising to me for the simple reason I did the same thing for many years. I understand where you are coming from after a fashion. However, at some point the passion for the truth must overtake any pet theories or ideas that we might have or it isn't a pursuit of truth at all. This can very difficult, depending on the subject, or at least it was for me.

As I've said before, believe what you will, but at least look at all of the evidence available and revise your conclusions as necessary. For your sake.

VIDEOS
Testing of Crop Circles
How to work out a crop circle is man made
The science and "experts" exposed
Crop Circles being made

I am glad some people like yourself have the skills to spot that circles are man made. To many it's too much of a shattering prospect to realise that circles arent made by aliens directly. However some of the experiences that both circlemakers have had and people visiting the circles are enough to say that there is something unusual going on even though people make the circles. I have been driven/guided to go out and make a design that a group were meditating on. I did the exact shape they were asking for.

There is a heap load of arrogance and denial about human circlemaking. I find it hard to know if it is due to researchers wanting to keep face, make some money or gain some power over followers of their theories or if it because they just are not bright enough to get the truth. I know **for certain** I have seen time after time researchers who will all out lie their butts off when they know full well a circle has been created with the farmer been paid for a experiment/demonstration or wedding ceremony or all manner of reasons, they will then tell their followers there is no evidence the circle was man made. Now stand where I am standing and tell me you would cry a big FOUL if you had seen these researchers do this. How could you ever take them seriously again if you knew that???

This is literally what I am up against. Its not about being truly right, it seems to them it is about being seen to be right, even if your wrong. This is a lot for many people who are genuinely interested in these subejcts to take on board. They naturally want to fall back behind the trench lines of belief in circles. The wish not to underme the core beliefs they have held for years means that is often easier for people to believe that circlemakers are the liars and go back to untested researchers positions rather than face that many (yes manY) researchers either dont know whats going on, or do know exactly whats going on and arent saying! The reasoning for positions held on crop circles are usually because of what you saw on tv or read in a book or heard in a lecture. Very few people actually properly research circles and fewer still bother to speak to circlemakers or listen t teh things we are saying. So people gain their beliefs based on third hand information, not well established facts gained first hand.

There are even videos now being released where in order to win favour from eager belivers the researchers are resorting to efforts to say that we are government agents. I just cant believe this. I even had Linda Moulton Howe say that I worked for the CIA. How come I work for the CIA when I'm British? Sheesh! Wheres the proof? Well the simple answer is there is no proof, these are just hunches and opinions from researchers who are angry as hell that we are bit by bit taking away their believers and making them look silly. However I must stress that before my recent youtube education campaign we had tried in vain for many years to work with researchers who were prepared to speak to us to help them understand the truth of how circles were made by people. Most wouldnt even speak to us, behaving in very agressive or offhand manner. Had they worked with us and seen the truth 9 years ago I would not be so determined now with my youtube channel and lectures to present the truth to a wider audience. Its their problem if they couldnt move with the times.

Its like someone who has one of those suitcase mobile phones - its old school... it doesnt work on todays networks... its not sophisticated and you missed the boat. Smart kiddies can grasp much easier than older folks new information and its the older folks who have a much harder time seeing the facts.

One of the most couragous researchers to tell the truth is Colin Andrews, who said he felt most circles were man made. That took a lot of guts and honesty to do that. However look what happened to him. He was then cut off from the research community. His lectures were cancelled and he isnt welcome to speak in many groups now. This is how the information is controlled folks and it isnt a conspiracy by MI5 or the CIA... its the people who organise these conferences and their customers who want to control the flow of information so it spins the way they like it. Bear this in mind. It is a fact!

[QUOTE=trainedobserver;206980]

Originally Posted by truthseekers

Wow! A real whistle blower with tons of experience and video evidence. Now that would make a great Project Camelot interview don't you think Mr. Ryan?

I am happy to do an interview with anyone... who is Mr Ryan?

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by truthseekers

T
I am glad some people like yourself have the skills to spot that circles are man made.

Thanks. Your efforts in educating the public on the truth of crop circles are largely responsible. I appreciate the honest work you are doing. Please keep it up. Please produce a DVD or two with your videos on them. And please do make another Crop Circle documentary that brings things us up to date on the scene as it is today.

Originally Posted by truthseekers

... This is how the information is controlled folks and it isnt a conspiracy by MI5 or the CIA... its the people who organise these conferences and their customers who want to control the flow of information so it spins the way they like it. Bear this in mind. It is a fact!

It's like scales dropping of your eyes when you realize what is actually going on isn't it? To realize that the disinformation effort is largely a symptom of the UFO/paranormal community ITSELF and not the work of some shadowy outside agency is disheartening isn't it? While it is a documented fact beyond all denial that government and military agencies have monitored, infiltrated, and controlled many UFO study groups since the early 50s, not all "disinformation" comes from them. Unscrupulous researchers, con-men, and well meaning but naive true believers have been doing a great job on their own.

Originally Posted by trainedobserver

I am happy to do an interview with anyone... who is Mr Ryan?

I was referring to Project Camelot's Bill Ryan. Since Project Camelot prides itself on controversial subjects an interview with you should be exactly what they are looking for ... one would think anyway. What about it Bill or Kerry?

[hollylindin]

[QUOTE=truthseekers;206704]

Originally Posted by mntruthseeker

Also I believe crop circles attract paranormal thinsg hence why we do them. People are welcome and encouraged to take part in the magic and see for themselves. That is what crop circles is all about, unsigned magical art which gives people positive strange experiences.

Beautifully put, Matthew! I'm a huge believer that most crop circles are alien-made, but I'm with you there - the ones I feel ARE made by us are definitely there to bring about paranormal things and get some answers! And "unsigned magical art" is a great way of describing it.

<3

[trainedobserver]

Originally Posted by truthseekers

Hello mention the devil and he shall appear. hehe... I am the Matthew Williams u speak of. Someone told me you were chatting about me in here so I thought I would show up.

Wow! A real whistle blower with tons of experience and video evidence. Now that would make a great Project Camelot interview don't you think Mr. Ryan?c

[Northern Boy]

perhaps those brainy blu buddies from that other forum will come and explain it .

[waitinginthewings]

Originally Posted by Northern Boy

perhaps those brainy blu buddies from that other forum will come and explain it .

[mntruthseeker]

Originally Posted by Northern Boy

perhaps those brainy blu buddies from that other forum will come and explain it .

You are too too funny.............I just got your message, hey NB go check it out and let us know OK

the smurfs are up to no good again !

[kari]

I don`t get it, why not just make it easy to understand?
Instead of showing circles in the field or in the snow, just tell us what is going on,if they have a message? Instead of makeing it in to a fu..... guessing game?How hard can it be for those "intelligent" circlemakers whoever they are, just tell it like it is, instead of this bs.
Kari