Anomalies in The Ruiner's material

[transiten]

Exactly Rusalka, that's what i'm constantly trying to do, research personal truth in connection with the collective to the extent that I go OFF TOPIC but not in my own view of course since I have my truth which f.i. up til now has been that The Reptilian Perspective is a projection from our reptilian brain which doesn't exclude there might be Real Reptilians out there. I have no longing to ever meet one though and I have enough with internal shadow work trying to turn lead into gold and that applies for the collective also....The Golden Age anyone?

[araucaria]

Bill: thank you for posting a brief audio of Bernstein. Interestingly, Gould was in full agreement, and giggling his head off while waiting to come onstage: no big deal. Except that very soon afterwards, he quit the concert platform for good to concentrate on studio recordings. Which is very germane to what I have to say below.

My posting style puts me somewhat out of step. It takes me time to gather my thoughts. To those who are finding the pace slow already, I apologize if it is a problem responding to post #1 in my post #91, or to #94 in c. #120. However, the thing I have been thinking about overnight has been touched on in various ways. Who are the nameless bastards we can tell to get lost? Can we use software to vet human whistleblowers? Avoid the blame game…

Bill, you say, “It is NOT really about Shane”: well, yes and no; but, practically speaking, how do we take yes and no for an answer? We have been here a few times over the years, and others before us. The wheat and the chaff. The curate’s bad egg: parts of it he said were delicious. The baby and the bathwater. Life vs non-life; AI vs humanity. Mind control vs the unfettered creative mind. There are always two things inextricably intertwined. Like the rabid dog, how do we remove the rabies without killing the dog? OK, we kill the dog, but say it’s a human, we need to find a cure. The old message/messenger dichotomy is worn to a shred. We are dealing with a “messager” syndrome. I prefer to focus on the human element of this AI/human compound. You only research rabies to isolate it and find a cure for the madness it induces. So for me, it is very much about Shane; he comes first, his material second.

Bill in post #63:

It's just like a new remote-influencing technology got perfected, and is now being rolled out.

It’s more than ten years since Paul Levy was talking about the collective psychosis in The Madness of George Bush; and he was quoting material from Carl Jung, who was analyzing the Nazi period. So we don’t need some new technology that has just been launched, and we won’t find any nameless bastards “out there” to ostracize. The issue is older than that and closer to home than that. Indeed brand new technology does not sit well with any story of an ET presence dating back thousands or millions of years. The timescales just don’t match. It makes no sense to talk about “last year” on an almost geological timescale. But, on the human timescale, it does make sense to consider that a contagious madness first diagnosed (maybe) 80 years ago has built up to a critical point about now.
For further info on Paul Levy, whom I have been quoting ever since I joined this forum, see:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post115590
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post555743
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post666955
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post944068
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post944606
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post953623
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post970955
(This last post is continued here: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post970962 )

We are all experiencers in one way or another; whistle-blowing and forum hosting are just two ways of sharing those experiences, with no privileged status attached, in my eyes at least. Otherwise you are placing the emphasis on those who have experienced the madness, thereby doing exactly what we reject in the sensationalist mainstream press. How then are we going to give a voice to those who have experienced the sanity? My chosen third way is forum posting and my criterion for judging what is going on is the ability to stay sane and carry on as part of a community giving a voice to healing sanity. But the other big picture I am seeing is a constant flow of forum members unable to stay the course, and leaving for whatever reason of incompatibility or inability to maintain normal communications, regardless of subject matter. You have breakaway forums to try and carry on the unhealthy hybrid. Avalon-Nexus, Avalon-TOT… What we need and are heading towards is Avalon only – not, I hasten to add, because it is illegitimate to be doing your own thing with healthy offshoots, but because copycat sites are the outside expression of unfinished schizophrenic business that was not dealt with internally on the forum. Just as recent world history is the external expression of unfinished psychic business of the human race and its sadly representative representatives.

The symptoms of this disease can vary wildly; like the hundred-headed monster, there will always be a new one to deal with. That is the problem facing alternative research. The forms are always new, but the ancient myth of hundred-headed monster shows just how old the disease really is. You have Corey Goode, who was damaged goods from the outset (Milab). (I found out very quickly, and long before his interview, that normal communication was not going to be possible.) Christine, on the other hand, was close to the heart of Avalon, and yet she fell off her horse at that point and became someone very different from the moderator and healer we knew and loved. Or did she? I honestly don’t know. She did not reach her position here through deceitfulness: she was somehow contaminated through contact with a sufferer of this disease, maybe only temporarily. And Corey would have been a good man too had he not caught the disease at any early age. You have to hold onto the humanity in every person: compassion means no one is left behind – not always possible, but that is the goal. We cannot be satisfied at losing anyone.

So where does Shane fit in with all this? Even under pressure, Shane has constantly shown all the qualities and grace needed for normal sane group communication. Yet here we are picking holes in his story and wondering which of our several ways of rejecting someone applies best to his case. It is so simple to say that his book joins the large number of incompatible volumes in our library. Give me all the contradictions you like: I can juggle with them. Shane’s basic conclusion and message from all his material of various kinds, including the possibly dubious, is a hugely positive and simple one that we have heard loud and clear, with plenty of other people saying the same sort of thing. Why quibble with this conclusion and say no, his premise is corrupted and divisive? Let’s stick with the positive and move on together with Shane. I personally would like to see Shane participating more in general forum discussions, sharing his wisdom on a variety of subjects. His experience is not too much of a burden on his emotional balance, but it has monopolized the conversation with him. Shane, can you perhaps see a way to doing that?

My Dad used to swear by G. K. Chesterton, no doubt for his ability to recognize things as being upside down and turn them the right way up. Our brain does this automatically with our optical system; it is almost as if we have lost the corresponding wiring to do this in other areas. We can think straight enough, but it’s all upside down. Here is an example from “G. K.”:

I maintain, therefore, that the common sociological method is quite useless: that of
first dissecting abject poverty or cataloguing prostitution. We all dislike abject
poverty; but it might be another business if we began to discuss independent and
dignified poverty. We all disapprove of prostitution; but we do not all approve of
purity. The only way to discuss the social evil is to get at once to the social ideal. We
can all see the national madness; but what is national sanity? I have called this book
“What Is Wrong with the World?” and the upshot of the title can be easily and clearly
stated. What is wrong is that we do not ask what is right.

This was my approach to the Bernstein-Gould “marriage”. On that brief but memorable occasion they overcame their incompatibilities to produce wonderful harmony, with no acrimonious “divorce” to follow. They simply went their own ways. I have learned when people divorce not to take sides. Just as I can enjoy Bernstein’s Brahms and Gould’s Bach, I don’t feel the need to judge or distance myself from one or the other (although we might grow apart anyway); simply their incompatibility with each other got the better of them (but their incompatibility with me is a different issue). Incompatibility per se is not an obstacle: the complementarity, e.g. of opposites attracting, is in fact the basis of any marriage. As Chesterton says,

Coercion is a kind of encouragement; and
anarchy (or what some call liberty) is essentially oppressive, because it is essentially
discouraging. If we all floated in the air like bubbles, free to drift anywhere at any
instant, the practical result would be that no one would have the courage to begin a
conversation. It would be so embarrassing to start a sentence in a friendly whisper,
and then have to shout the last half of it because the other party was floating away
into the free and formless ether. The two must hold each other to do justice to each
other. If Americans can be divorced for “incompatibility of temper” I cannot conceive
why they are not all divorced. I have known many happy marriages, but never a
compatible one. The whole aim of marriage is to fight through and survive the instant
when incompatibility becomes unquestionable. For a man and a woman, as such, are
incompatible.
And on the previous page:
Briefly, this human belief in a sexual bond rests
on a principle of which the modern mind has made a very inadequate study. It is,
perhaps, most nearly paralleled by the principle of the second wind in walking.
The principle is this: that in everything worth having, even in every pleasure, there is
a point of pain or tedium that must be survived, so that the pleasure may revive and
endure. The joy of battle comes after the first fear of death; the joy of reading Virgil
comes after the bore of learning him; the glow of the sea-bather comes after the icy
shock of the sea bath; and the success of the marriage comes after the failure of the
honeymoon. All human vows, laws, and contracts are so many ways of surviving with
success this breaking point, this instant of potential surrender.

In other words, this is yet another Near Death Experience we are having, scaled up from the individual to the group level, and scaled down from the cosmic NDE that humanity seems to be experiencing as a whole. Once we take the heart the lesson of such experiences, we will stop having them. And the lesson is always the same: Stop floating off into the ether, get back down to earth where you belong and start looking after each other in earnest. What we need is some homely simplicity; Chesterton again:

there are signs that the irrational Jones still dreams at night of this old
idea of having an ordinary home. He asked for so little, and he has been offered so
much. He has been offered bribes of worlds and systems; he has been offered Eden
and Utopia and the New Jerusalem, and he only wanted a house; and that has been
refused him. (…)
The idea of private property universal but private, the idea of families free but still
families, of domesticity democratic but still domestic, of one man one house--this
remains the real vision and magnet of mankind.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Catsquotl (here)
Probably not important, but why use the color red in the Q&A post? https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1008762

Only to distinguish between the questions and answers! (It could have been blue, but blue looks like a link.)

Because some members have a dark background enabled (which means that to them, regular text looks white), the only other colors that really work well on both backgrounds are red and blue.)

[transiten]

Thankyou araucaria, this was in a long and eloquent way what I meant in my recent post with the Jungian joke and alchemical reference

I also want to mention I have 3 times posted in David Wilcocks blog asking pple there to give their view of the critizism Corey has recieved. I also said I've been following DW for many years and read 3 of his books. My posts have not appeared and in the last one i asked if i've been censored but no answer....

Never had any problem with earlier posts. This doesn't feel right; I mean I have not "taken sides" ....and this of course tends to steer me in the direction of the critizism...

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by PurpleLama (here)

Posted by awakeningmom (here)
I don’t know if anything else is forthcoming that could clarify the above confusion, but I’m not sure it’s worth unraveling anymore. This all somehow feels really wrong to me.

Heheh heheh. She said Unraveling.

This was a rather catty comment, and at first the mods had deleted it, unsure whether this was in the public domain or not. But it is. Shane hasn't made any secret of this. The live performances are on YouTube, and the web pages are here. Do note, though, that this might not be at all relevant to the discussion.

http://facebook.com/unravelingmusic

Members: Instrumentals - Shane Farmer / Vocals - Shane Bales / Additional Orchestration, Guitars and Vocals - Lenny Farmer

http://unravelingmusic.com/unraveling/the-band

Shane (Shaynard) Bales – Main Vocalist

[Bill Ryan]

.
I want to try to return this to the bigger-picture focus, which was outlined in this post (#63, here).

This is NOT an inquisition. (Nor, @ Chloe (Thomas Wiliams' partner) who wrote to me privately, 'disinformation', which consists of part-truth-part-falsehood, in a campaign to confuse.)

But I do think there are serious problems. And they have gradually become apparent... it's like a tipping point was reached, but at different points in different audience members' experiences.

Before the bigger picture focus... another HUGE problem. It has to be flagged.

As several have pointed out, Shane stating that he trained Vladimir Putin, 22 years ago, when he (Shane) was aged 13, is almost impossible (for me) to believe.

Moreover, he has stated that Putin "was tall".

That's interesting, because I, too (probably like many people!) had kind of assumed that Putin is tall. But he's not. He's only 5' 7" (170 cm). Shane has said that aged 14, he (Shane) was 5' 8". This just does not wash.

We need to cross-reference this.

Andy Basiago has stated that he personally encountered Barack Obama on Mars... in 1980, 25 years ago. I'm not singling out Shane here! I've also stated that that, too, is absurd. I've been a longstanding critic of Andy's claims.

Andy WAS involved in teleportation experiments when he was a child. That's important. (The excellent new documentary, out next month, Packing For Mars, found WITNESS TESTIMONY for that.)

But I'm as certain as I can possibly be that he never went to Mars. Those 'memories' of his all 'appeared' after February 2007, when I first talked to him for four hours about his experiences. I don't even know for sure if Andy, now, doesn't believe those memories were always there.

Think about that, for a moment... that's scary.

I will say again and again — Andy is the nicest, most sincere person, and totally believes his own story. When we were doing the Camelot TV show, we brought in a professional analyst, who verified, on camera, in her professional opinion, from his voice, behavior, eye movements, and all his mannerisms, that Andy 100% felt ('knew'!) he was telling the truth. But that scene was cut out of the final production, because it wasn't really 'action-oriented' enough.

And I've TALKED with Andy about this, in person, myself. Although he is a highly intelligent man, he was bewildered when I suggested to him, gently and patiently, for an hour over lunch one day in 2010, that these might be overlaid screen memories, designed to (a) make him look like a laughing stock, and (b) discredit the entire (very real) backstory of Mars bases being a reality. (And they are, of course.)

It was a strange conversation. Andy, who like Shane is a really nice person, was not annoyed by my trying to explain what might have happened... he just could not understand what I was saying. It's like there was a real block there. Eventually, after 45 minutes, he got the idea... and then dismissed it.

I am really concerned that there may be a whole roll-out here of people with extreme, unbelievable stories, some containing very little if any truth, that they cannot show any evidence for, which is leading the alternative community by the nose. Corey Goode is another, of course. He and Shane emerged at almost exactly the same time. AND all the Flat Earth claims and videos. That's active now, more than ever before.

This is my worry. If it's a legitimate one, we should ALL be worried... because there'll be a lot more coming, and it'll be designed to take us all down (in one way or another).

[Bill Ryan]

.
To add to this big smörgåsbord, I want to add one more thing.

Back around 2008, I think, Kerry Cassidy and I were contacted by someone (who we never interviewed) who wrote to tell us how they had been approached by the CIA to 'write fiction' for them. (Our source had declined the offer.)

Now, there are many contexts in which the CIA (and other agencies, one must presume) could deploy fiction! But I just wanted to document, absolutely, that that happens. And I DO have the e-mails somewhere.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
The live performances are on YouTube, and the web pages are here.

Shane, the musician, is well publicized.

Shane, the Ruiner, is well publicized.

However the connection is scarcely made, in public view.

===

P.S. -- replace "is" with "was" .

[OmeyocaN777]

It's not the first time Bill that elite is trying to confuse us or to divide us with false informations or false flags.
Everytime they tried something like this, we came back more strong than before.
These areas that we are "swimming" are deep and dark waters with a lot of dangers.....
Our biggests weapons is unity and the heart frequency intuition.....
Stay focus guys in our goal to free humanity from the matrix and the prison-mind planet.
When someone of us conquers one truth, everyone in earth that resonates in the same frequency immediately benefits from it (morphogenetic fields).
Step by step we will make the difference.
Anyway the search for truth never ends......and thats the beauty of it!!!
I love you ALL

[Cristi Copac]

@Bill Ryan - What do you think of Leuren Moret?

From Bill: a quick answer... I'm not acquainted enough with her work to have an opinion.

[ErtheVessel]

I'd like to offer some further ideas on the notion of discernment, which seems relevant to this topic of Shane, as well as to our very survival in the current social/psychic madness of our planet.

It seems important to me to begin by distinguishing between those who are misguided or mistaken, and those who are deliberately and maliciously intent on causing harm by lying. I, myself, know very well what it is like to believe something wholeheartedly and then come to a place where I realize how very foolish I have been for being so duped. Personally, I have no sympathy for those who are intentionally malicious - for me they are psychopathic and very possibly not even human. For those who have been misguided, I may keep my distance to protect myself, but I cannot entirely reject them from my heart. To me, this is an important distinction and the action I take after making this distinction may be different in every case, depending on the circumstances.

I also feel that lies and truth can exist simultaneously, which is something that can make discernment very tricky. I will use the example of John Lash, only because it is simple and obvious, not because I want to derail the thread to talk about him. Please, please understand that I am using this example ONLY as a vehicle to discuss discernment. There is a very nice thread about JLL somewhere else for any further discussion of him.

With JLL, my initial interest in his work was because, to me, there was an underlying, foundational truth to his work, which I perceived as the fact that Gaia is a majestic and magnificently intelligent living being who is capable of meaningful communication with all of us who live upon her. This truth that I perceived was very exciting to me. However, in delving into his *teaching* I slowly began to realize that everything else was complete and total fiction. He was making it all up and calling it truth with an intent to wield power and harm others. So this is the very important part - if I am not paying very close attention, I don't notice that the foundational truth does not infuse or animate the *teaching* in any way, they are two separate things. The foundational truth serves only to attract because, I believe, lies do not attract us. And what is even more interesting is that I, myself, enliven any bogus teaching with my own innate sense of truth. The psychopath offers no living truth. The pearl resides in the one who perceives, not in the one who boldly offers his bogus show of greatness.

So the point being, some were attracted initially to Shane's information and perceived something there as truth. I wonder what? Is there some truth there that can be ferreted out that is important? Is something being projected outward that is really within? And I am not referring to shadow work at this point. We tend to project out our light as well as our shadow. It seems so very important to me to use these episodes as tools to unravel the evidence of our own gifts and strengths that we are not currently able to see. If we lose faith in the ability to know our own inner truth, we are indeed lost. Don't let them win that treacherous game.

[giovonni]

Posted by Paul (here)

replace "is" with "was" .

One question ...

Under whose administration/appointment was Shane asked or requested to be a made moderator ...

And under what circumstances did he end this status (position) ?

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by giovonni (here)
Under whose administration/appointment was Shane asked or requested to be a made moderator ...

Shane was a moderator briefly near the end of Richard's term as the lead Administrator, and Shane left shortly after most of the rest of the moderator team left, in March 2011, during the great Charles affair. Shane stayed a couple of weeks after the primary exodus, and offered assistance to myself, the new, replacement mod, for which assistance I remain grateful.

[giovonni]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by giovonni (here)
Under whose administration/appointment was Shane asked or requested to be a made moderator ...

Shane was a moderator briefly near the end of Richard's term as the lead Administrator, and Shane left shortly after most of the rest of the moderator team left, in March 2011, during the great Charles affair.

Thank you Paul ...

All i needed to know.

[Jean-Luc]

So after we've had some guy with vanishing sources trying to convince the audience some bankers were running for their lives, we now have another guy trying to sell a similar meme with some dark and pretty old chaps escaping the planet.

Conclusion to be swallowed up by target audience: yes we've made a mess of the place but don't worry, we're gone now.

The question is: will the dude Ryan buy this one this time ?


Source (for the rest of the clip, you judge, but probably not the human soul at its highest level of evolution)

But it's probably me. I must have missed something.

[Tangri]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
.
To add to this big smörgåsbord, I want to add one more thing.

Back around 2008, I think, Kerry Cassidy and I were contacted by someone (who we never interviewed) who wrote to tell us how they had been approached by the CIA to 'write fiction' for them. (Our source had declined the offer.)

Now, there are many contexts in which the CIA (and other agencies, one must presume) could deploy fiction! But I just wanted to document, absolutely, that that happens. And I DO have the e-mails somewhere.

You are right in your observation, except those may not come from the CIA or other governmental agencies all the time. This kind of encouragements comes from different colour sites(dark , light, grey) which intend to implicate or implant the idea.

[Tangri]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
.
I want to try to return this to the bigger-picture focus,



But I do think there are serious problems. And they have gradually become apparent... it's like a tipping point was reached, but at different points in different audience members' experiences.

Before the bigger picture focus... another HUGE problem. It has to be flagged.

As several have pointed out, Shane stating that he trained Vladimir Putin, 22 years ago, when he (Shane) was aged 13, is almost impossible (for me) to believe.

Moreover, he has stated that Putin "was tall".

That's interesting, because I, too (probably like many people!) had kind of assumed that Putin is tall. But he's not. He's only 5' 7" (170 cm). Shane has said that aged 14, he (Shane) was 5' 8". This just does not wash.

We need to cross-reference this.


This is my worry. If it's a legitimate one, we should ALL be worried... because there'll be a lot more coming, and it'll be designed to take us all down (in one way or another).

I am surprised you did not criticise my below statement

{"If I tell you, I was 15 years old at Boston Marathon bombing event, supporting my mother's run, most of the readers would be ready to listen my experience in that chaos.

In the same time, some of you would have different questions on my story.}

No one asked me how old I am now or how old my mother was.

We make our acts or move things but affects of those efforts come with fruits in very delayed time
If we are fortuned enough, we can test those fruit in our life, other-vice our grandsons/daughters eat them.

[onawah]

It feels to me also like we may be having another sort of group NDE, such as the ones we've had before, resulting from the Charles debacle and others, when there was a mass migration from Avalon, possibly because many former members could not hold the larger vision that Avalon aspires to, or believe that was possible.
And it's interesting to me that, although I've never abandoned my primary ideal of connecting with Nature in order to self-realize, one of the problems I encounter with being an active member here is that I spend too many hours in my head and on my computer analyzing data instead of out in Nature!
And, despite whatever new behind-the-scenes agendas may be affecting them, the whistleblowers who are giving us their current and divergent views of what's real--at least, the three I've been following the closest, Simon, Shane and Harald-- ironically, are ALL AGREEING that possibly the most important thing we can do is to foster our connection with the Earth.
It seems like a good thing to me that at least the thing they are agreeing on is undeniably an important one (often those things whistleblowers are are very trivial) and, at least from my perspective, undeniably correct.
It's something that the counterculture of the 60s was adamant about, and I think the love of Earth and Nature connection was what really fueled the energy of that revolutionary movement.
To access that kind of energy again, to become that powerful again but with the knowledge and wisdom we have now, I think we are going to have to devote at least as much time to restoration of the environment as we are to research, but at least we don't have to do as much convincing of others to do that--it's becoming more and more obvious every day how much damage we've done, and what the consequences are.
The problem now, I think, is more about how to deal with the addictions so many of us have to technology, and especially the younger generations.
Can we defeat AI using AI, or do we have to eschew it?

Posted by araucaria (here)
In other words, this is yet another Near Death Experience we are having, scaled up from the individual to the group level, and scaled down from the cosmic NDE that humanity seems to be experiencing as a whole. Once we take the heart the lesson of such experiences, we will stop having them. And the lesson is always the same: Stop floating off into the ether, get back down to earth where you belong and start looking after each other in earnest. What we need is some homely simplicity; Chesterton again:

there are signs that the irrational Jones still dreams at night of this old
idea of having an ordinary home. He asked for so little, and he has been offered so
much. He has been offered bribes of worlds and systems; he has been offered Eden
and Utopia and the New Jerusalem, and he only wanted a house; and that has been
refused him. (…)
The idea of private property universal but private, the idea of families free but still
families, of domesticity democratic but still domestic, of one man one house--this
remains the real vision and magnet of mankind.

[Daozen]

As several have pointed out, Shane stating that he trained Vladimir Putin, 22 years ago, when he (Shane) was aged 13, is almost impossible (for me) to believe.

Not necessarily. Dark secret societies regularly use child psychics. Young teenagers are coveted for their PSI abilities. Many illuminists have said training starts at age 5-7. Poltergeist activity, often attributed to young teenagers, especially girls, is very active during early teenage years. Just a point...

Having said that, I am not a "true believer." I 99 per cent think Shane is for real, but I support, in general, tooth combing exercises/close reading exercises like this.

Moreover, he has stated that Putin "was tall".

That's interesting, because I, too (probably like many people!) had kind of assumed that Putin is tall. But he's not. He's only 5' 7" (170 cm). Shane has said that aged 14, he (Shane) was 5' 8". This just does not wash.

This is more of a credible point, so we can hear Shane speak, if he wants to. Even a minor detail like this would not necessarily invalidate the rest of his story.

[Leon Kovalyov]

Hello everyone,

I think what has always been clear and important are the messages that Shane shared with all with respect and kindness...

That energy is clear and the feeling I felt was genuine grace and good will towards all.

Wingmakers comes to mind, as much truth has been passed down through various myth, legend and fiction.

His story made me feel excited to join this forum and share more info with all about a way to reconnect with our planet that was written about in the Ringingcedars series of books. It also made me want to share some of my music with everyone here. The point being that I for one really enjoyed reading his story, if you do not, then put it aside and move on.

You can't please everyone and we can all agree to disagree, everything is everything...

There will always be games played, but truth always lessens our shadows...this helped lessen, remind, reconnect some...

I think we should find a better way to spend our time to reconnect with our Mother Earth, our families and each other through technology inclusively...

OneLove, beloveds...