Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

[Guish]

Welcome back Ray.

[greybeard]

We each know our own know best Ray as the saying goes.

The/my belief is that we were not created--we have always been.
We are infinity--no beginning no end.
In the words Of Eckhart Tolle limited consciousness (Ego is the limiter) is growing to know itself.
Ego brought about the fall you might say.
We are at the movies and it seems very real.
"God wrote the play
God Produced the play
God is the actor in the play
God is the witness of the play"

"Acts happen
Deeds are done
There is no doer there of."


The ocean has waves which rise and subside.
The ocean remains unaffected by it all.
God is not affected by what seems to happen.

In realised nature I am the totality all of it.
One without a second--is an ultimate statement and one that I believe.
I accept this is not my direct experience but I have heard it often enough to believe it to be so.

It would seem that you are also taking on board that which has been said through out the ages by secret society’s and others.

There is no lack of respect for you Ray and I am not trying to influence you, only correcting misunderstandings that you seem to have have about my path.
I am not saying yours is invalid but you seem to be saying mine is.

I am attempting to debate that which can not be understood without direct experience

With love
Chris

[Clear Light]

Ah, perhaps the following anecdote may help to illuminate things ...

From : Facebook Buddhist Humor Community Page

Stilling the Waters (April 2013)

"Why must I meditate in order to acheive enlightenment?" demanded the prince of his teacher. "I can study. I can pray. I can think on issues clearly. Why this silly emptying of the mind?"

"I will show you," said the teacher, taking a bucket of water into the garden under the full moon. "Now I stir the surface and what do you see?"

"Ribbons of light," answered the prince.

"Now wait," said the teacher setting the bucket down.

Both teacher and boy watched the calming surface of the water in the bamboo bucket for many minutes.

"Now what do you see?" asked the teacher.

"The moon," replied the prince.

"So, too, young master, the only way to grasp enlightenment is through a calm and settled mind."

[Jake]

Years ago, i explained it to mee wee daughters by showing them a snowglobe... When you shake it up, all of those snowy bits are like our thoughts. Quite mesmerizing.. lol... Meditation is simply setting the snowglobe down and observing the effect.... And then a completely different scene comes into view....

Jake

[Finefeather]

Posted by greybeard (here)
I am not saying yours is invalid but you seem to be saying mine is.

Well yes I have to plead guilty to that... but in reality it's only our ego that takes offense in cases where our very belief system is invaded.
Once we become a little more certain about reality... and belief becomes experienced knowledge or wisdom... these kinds of attacks from outside our Self fall off us like water off a duck back.

From inside me I can assure you that I am certainly not belittling you dear Chris... only the belief... which is not really you... the real Self. I see this in the same light as 2 brothers having a disagreement... but love does not fade.

I am well aware of the laws of life and it's retaliation when we criticize without due motive.

Posted by greybeard (here)
I am attempting to debate that which can not be understood without direct experience

My view on this has always been that no one can ever truly understand anything until he/she has had objective experience of it.
This is also my view on why some seem to be wiser than others despite things like age or education... the wise have done it before... objectively... either in this life or a previous one.

Take care brother
Ray

[Finefeather]

Posted by Jake (here)
Years ago, i explained it to mee wee daughters by showing them a snowglobe... When you shake it up, all of those snowy bits are like our thoughts. Quite mesmerizing.. lol... Meditation is simply setting the snowglobe down and observing the effect.... And then a completely different scene comes into view....

Jake

Very nice little analogy Jake

Yes this is so true... but we must be aware that the stillness or calm is to allow us to think and analyse and focus better... without the noise in the background.

I have heard so many people say that meditation is to blank your mind so that some wisdom can come flooding in... well in 40 years of meditation this has never happened to me... yes I have seen some great optical displays and illusions but never some god appearing before me with the "Book of Wisdom"

Stillness has however helped me greatly to focus on subjects which I have sort answers to and what seems to happen to me is that this stillness and focus allows me to channel into the very cosmic area of the problem or thing I need answers to.

I guess we each have our own experiences as well... but also, I have found that imagination plays a big role in the clarity of the meditation... we get what we are looking for... real or illusion.

Take care
Ray

[greybeard]

Yes Ray
There might be some disagreement but that's separate from what we are.
Respect and brotherly love is always there.

Much love
Chris

[Finefeather]

Posted by greybeard (here)
Yes Ray
There might be some disagreement but that's separate from what we are.
Respect and brotherly love is always there.

Much love
Chris

Right brother...

Now what about a kiss hey? we can start off with just a little one... lol

Sorry this just reminded about the Mel Gibson, Danny Glover end scene in one of the Lethal Weapon movies where Mel Gibson asks Danny Glover for a kiss after they just killed all the bad guys

[Guish]

Posted by Finefeather (here)

Posted by Jake (here)
Years ago, i explained it to mee wee daughters by showing them a snowglobe... When you shake it up, all of those snowy bits are like our thoughts. Quite mesmerizing.. lol... Meditation is simply setting the snowglobe down and observing the effect.... And then a completely different scene comes into view....

Jake

Very nice little analogy Jake

Yes this is so true... but we must be aware that the stillness or calm is to allow us to think and analyse and focus better... without the noise in the background.

I have heard so many people say that meditation is to blank your mind so that some wisdom can come flooding in... well in 40 years of meditation this has never happened to me... yes I have seen some great optical displays and illusions but never some god appearing before me with the "Book of Wisdom"

Stillness has however helped me greatly to focus on subjects which I have sort answers to and what seems to happen to me is that this stillness and focus allows me to channel into the very cosmic area of the problem or thing I need answers to.

I guess we each have our own experiences as well... but also, I have found that imagination plays a big role in the clarity of the meditation... we get what we are looking for... real or illusion.

Take care
Ray

We've discussed that a lot in TH's thread. In my experience, thoughts become spontaneous as one becomes more aware. There's less thinking which gives a sense of emptiness and freedom. Saying one is blank is false but the depth of a pond can only be seen when everything is completely still, empty of any noise.

[Finefeather]

Posted by Guish (here)
We've discussed that a lot in TH's thread. In my experience, thoughts become spontaneous as one becomes more aware. There's less thinking which gives a sense of emptiness and freedom. Saying one is blank is false but the depth of a pond can only be seen when everything is completely still, empty of any noise.

in my experience it has always been about clarity of thought... we need to get one thing clear imo and that is that nothing can take place in our minds eye without thought... because for us to comprehend anything, consciousness or awareness of the object of our meditation is required... else we would not be able to perceive anything... a bit like seeing something for the first time in our life... we look at it and immediately our thoughts start searching our memory to make some sense out of what we are perceiving.

This is also why many people find it difficult to comprehend and make sense of what is in their heads during meditation... they are gazing at their unknown... which is part of the collective known consciousness.

In all the Zendos I have been in and worked at, the novices are first taught to be quiet and literally stop thinking... but this is only to gain control of the thought chatter... once we are able to control this ego chatterbox... "what am I gonna do tomorrow"... "who's my girlfriend with?"... "what am I going to make for supper"... etc etc it becomes easy to focus on what counts.

[Ted]

The real question is: Is there a better reality than this one, and if so, how do I get there?
If one is convinced that this is the only reality, then this will be the only reality. Personally, I can't live with that conviction because a little voice deep down inside says it isn't so. Consequently, I've chosen to step into the unknown on faith alone to see if I can't find my real home.
I can't live on psycho planet and not try and find a way out. This is not my natural habitat.
You can call it enlightenment or an awakening, but to me it's more like breaking out of jail.

[Jhonie]

i am seeing that people have different ideas of what enlightenment is. Here is a definition.

Enlightenment | Define Enlightenment at Dictionary.com
dictionary.reference.com/browse/enlightenment
Dictionary.com
Enlightenment definition. An intellectual movement of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries marked by a celebration of the powers of human reason, a keen interest in science, the promotion of religious toleration, and a desire to construct governments free of tyranny.

Perhaps there is a true enlightenment and yet there are those who would use the word as a trap. This is reminding me of the don't go into the light thought. I do not sit and meditate but I do sit and contemplate. What do those that go out of body find? Do they truly go to the other side or is that an illusion? Are we all deluded into believing one thing or another? I've read where those that use psychedelics only have mystical experiences if that is what they expect. I never had anything but a fun time. Will we ever truly know?

Edit. Are gurus even necessary to obtain enlightenment?

[bearcow]

What is enlightenment
Emptiness within form
the momentum of the Unconscious mind has completely ceased
You then become basically a superconductive material
if a teacher says they are enlightened and do not perform siddihs they are:
1 lying to you
2 lying to themselves
3 concealing thier true nature because they feel it is wise to do as such

[Jhonie]

Enlightenment = light in the mind?

Okay, how does one know the source of light?

[Clear Light]

Posted by Jhonie (here)
Enlightenment = light in the mind?

Okay, how does one know the source of light?

I'd suggest it's the Light of your Mind, now, which is enabling you to read these words on the screen in front of you !

After all it's the Mind that interprets the Brain's signals as received through the Sense Organs right ?

[Heart-2-Heart]

Without the experience ...How can there ...EVER ...be any understanding

H2h

Posted by Jhonie (here)
Enlightenment = light in the mind?

Okay, how does one know the source of light?

[Skyhaven]

Posted by Jhonie (here)
Enlightenment = light in the mind?

Okay, how does one know the source of light?

When one knows what dark is... And I agree with Hearthtohearth, this only becomes clear by experience... Its a deeply personal experience, and therefore very subjective, but many seem to find the term enlightenment and other's description of it to be very recognizable, until this happens it indeed is an illusion.

[Ted]

Enlightenment is the undoing of the dream. It is the realization that what we perceive as real is not. It is the experience of absolute, unshakable truth.
Enlightenment is unknowable, and seems like an illusion until it is experienced. Only then does it become the reality, and this world the illusion.

[Joey]

Posted by Ted (here)
Enlightenment is the undoing of the dream. It is the realization that what we perceive as real is not. It is the experience of absolute, unshakable truth.
Enlightenment is unknowable, and seems like an illusion until it is experienced. Only then does it become the reality, and this world the illusion.

Nice quote from probably someone you have never met, never knowing his real intentions. Can you look into the harsh present reality without blinking and see the immense self-caused suffering which is present here?

Citating nice and well-formed quotes from unknown sources without direct experience. Maybe a glimse of yet another mind trick?

Wake up to the reality of this world without blinking. Face the inner and outer demons and look for direct experience, for rememberance, for real inner power which is fire. It is for gaining your own wisdom and your own first-hand experience. To become wise is to make your hands dirty and stand in truth nomatter what it takes. This makes you stronger, like a tree capable of handling the storm without breaking, deeply grounded in the soil.

Sorry to sound harsh. I really see you as equals and it is in no way my intention to hurt anyone of you. I look at this world and see the enormous self-inflicted pain on this planet, feeling a deep inner stirr of acting and refiring the warrior spirit. Looking at the spiritual warriors on this forum, I see a lot of people quoting nice lines of text which they do not even understand. Chasing yet another illusion. Where are your own quotes generated from your own direct experience? Grow up warrior, open your eyes and stand in truth, no matter how painful it is.

[Clear Light]

Posted by Ted (here)
Enlightenment is the undoing of the dream. It is the realization that what we perceive as real is not. It is the experience of absolute, unshakable truth.
Enlightenment is unknowable, and seems like an illusion until it is experienced. Only then does it become the reality, and this world the illusion.

Oh, IMHE, Enlightenment is like the melting of an Ice Cube (the dualistic separate self) into the Ocean of non-dual Consciousness (it's true nature), it's like the dissolution of Personal Identity leaving the revelation of timeless Impersonal Awareness ... from apparent Separation to ALL-inclusive Interconnection / Interdependence !

Sometimes there are quotes which have stood the test of time such that they convey the Heart-of-such-Matters :

Adyashanti : “Enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing through the facade of pretence. It's the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true.”