Closing the Avalon accounts of two long standing members

[thunder24]

hmmm....he without sin...or oh shoot...throwing rocks at glass....aww i can't remember how it goes....

[Mike]

Jeff, you seem like a sweet guy, but you are also sanctimonious and naive.

Your experience above reads like the 5 minute feel-good resolution at the end of a disney 30 minute sitcom....the parents inviting you over, feeding you dinner, patting you.on the head etc

HELLO!!! Anybody home? We're talking about $60,000 here bud, not a few trinkets and odds n ends. For crying out loud, snap out of it Jeff! You didnt want to "twist her arm" over it? Really? It honestly never occured to you to ask about the theft of a small fortune? And you think this is somehow noble or something? Wow...just wow...

I wonder if l this fortune cookie wisdom of yours would have been suffient.for you had your life.savings been burglarized. Besides,.notions of forgiveness would be irrelevant if she'd simply return whats left of the money.

Its ok to be angry sometimes guys. Its ok to be judgemental.....especially in light of whats occured. Theres a time and place for lofty spiritual aphorisms, notions of karma etc..and a time for cold, hard calculation. Theres a difference between kindness and softness. Im not suggesting the firing squad for Christine...but reading these posts I.get.the.impression that a group hug and a hearty rendition of kumbaya would just about solve this thing for some of you. Guys , SHE STOLE $60,000! Think about it. I mean REALLY think about.it..

[ulli]

Posted by Jeffrey (here)
I have never really twisted her arm about it, and I'm not going to.

There was a point in my life, when I was sixteen years old, where I was hanging around some poor characters. Long story short, I ended up burglarizing a house. I knew the people too, one of my best friends growing up. Her parents were like my second set of parents. They were out of town that weekend and I needed money for drugs and wanted to gain the respect of the people I was hanging around with.

I went to jail for several days after it happened. A few weeks after that, the family whose trust I betrayed invited me and my mother over for dinner. They weren't concerned about what I had taken, or how I had wronged them. They didn't call everybody to tell them what I had done, or how bad of a person I had become. They were concerned about me, and in their concern they reached out and embraced me with love and forgiveness.

That kind of experience has an impact on a young heart. It's totally transformative. I wasn't expected to graduate high-school, especially by certain family members, they had made up their mind about me . . . I had done something bad. Well, I did graduate high-school. I was told I would never go to college. Today, I have a four year degree and no college debt. Not only that, but I now live in a vedantic monastery. Talk about a turn around! Nobody from my high-school days would ever believe I am where I am today. And I'm not done, I have much more ahead of me.

My point is this. Some friends just love you, and that's it. Love is transformative, and so is shame and condemnation. I am where I am today because I am loved.

In addition to the experience I just shared, my grandmother taught me a thing or two about loving somebody no matter what. She would always tell me she loved me, even when hell was raining down on me from others, or when I'd shoot myself in the foot, metaphorically speaking. She would always let me know how much she loved me.

When this life is over, the only thing that will matter is how we treated others — even those who have wronged us. How did we respond? Did we throw them into a pit of guilt, shame, and condemnation? Did we judge them harshly? Did we try to inflict pain upon them in some way to get back a them? If we did these things, did we eventually come around and learn to forgive them? (Or did we just completely ignore them, allowing what was said or done to roll off our backs like water on a lotus?) Did we grant ourselves the same love and forgiveness?

This isn't about philosophy, this is about character and day-to-day life.

That which irritates us about others can often lead to a better understanding of ourselves, Jung said something like that. Search your own mind and heart to find your angularities. Its hard work at first, but the fruits of such work are what we take with us when this body goes. Its about character. How much love did we freely give to others and to ourselves, how much did we withhold and why?

Love is transformative. You want to change somebody, you love them and see what happens. Love yourself and see what happens. Try to understand that they are the same thing and see how your perspective and dealings with the world transforms as you continue practicing.

The intellect is seated in the heart.

Sorry, Jeffrey, that's all very nice, but I find this kind of New Age unconditional love preachiness no better than the coerciveness of any religious fanatic or even convinced atheist. It's fundamentalism at its worst.

It rationalizes predatorial behavior, with the promise that the unconditional love they are asking for will turn them into good monks one day. And what happens to people who can't quite live up to those lofty expectations? Well, they'll get slandered, and have their reputations destroyed.

It does not allow people to go through the natural stages of growth processes. It's no different from Western civilization progress oriented "leaders" systematically destroying indigenous cultures, because they appear "backwards".

In this type of scenario predators will always come out on top. Thieves become richer, and liars end up collecting the greatest number of followers.

2000 years of Christian teachings to forgive over and over again has created the environment of the break-away civilization we are now witnessing. Turning people into victims deliberately and then blaming them for attracting that victimhood.

During Skype chats with Christine I would defend Bill as I believe I understood his MO better than she did, and she told me I was just projecting my own goodness at him.
I should have told her that by slandering Bill she was equally projecting her own evil at him.

[fourty-two]

To our whole Avalon Family - condolences for the sadness.

[ulli]

Posted by Mike (here)
Jeff, you seem like a sweet guy, but you are also sanctimonious and naive.

Your experience above reads like the 5 minute feel-good resolution at the end of a disney 30 minute sitcom....the parents inviting you over, feeding you dinner, patting you.on the head etc

HELLO!!! Anybody home? We're talking about $60,000 here bud, not a few trinkets and odds n ends. For crying out loud, snap out of it Jeff! You didnt want to "twist her arm" over it? Really? It honestly never occured to you to ask about the theft of a small fortune? And you think this is somehow noble or something? Wow...just wow...

I wonder if l this fortune cookie wisdom of yours would have been suffient.for you had your life.savings been burglarized. Besides,.notions of forgiveness would be irrelevant if she'd simply return whats left of the money.

Its ok to be angry sometimes guys. Its ok to be judgemental.....especially in light of whats occured. Theres a time and place for lofty spiritual aphorisms, notions of karma etc..and a time for cold, hard calculation. Theres a difference between kindness and softness. Im not suggesting the firing squad for Christine...but reading these posts I.get.the.impression that a group hug and a hearty rendition of kumbaya would just about solve this thing for some of you. Guys , SHE STOLE $60,000! Think about it. I mean REALLY think about.it..

Just one more thing to add here... The fact that it was Bill's mother who had left her gold stash to him in her will adds to the injustice committed here.
Both my parents have passed on, and even the smallest trinkets which once belonged to mum have taken on sentimental value. If anyone dares to force me to hand this stuff over, as happened when my home was burgled by a masked Colombian gang and I lost a collection of antique Baltic amber jewelry that my mother's family had managed to keep in a safe place during two world wars, my trust in the universe was severely damaged. There is real trauma when this happens.
Sure, in the end the experience turned into a blessing, in that we made a firm decision to leave city life behind for good.

It's not respectful for another to preach to me about detachment from material things, it must come from within me, when I decide to toss it away.
Bill deserved better than to be treated with such treachery and disrespect.
Yet this is what happens all the time once someone comes under the spell of New Age gurus...they all want to set themselves up as "teachers".

[promezeus]

Bill, I feel for you man. I been there. I think you knew somewhere inside you that she couldn't be trusted, but you ignored the feeling. We just can't ignore our feelings, and we have to learn the hard way.

[3(C)+me]

Oh my, there is a very thin line between loving someone, even their dark side and loving yourself.
Why do drunks pair up with someone to supports and even makes excuses for their drinking, Enabling does nothing for the drinker and nothing for the person who supports their addictions, makes excuses for them (just love them). You can love someone by saying no I will not let you
1. abuse me
2. lie to me
3. steal from me
4. manipulate me with a smile and charming ways.
5. Create instability in my life because of your behavior.
Time to grow up, time to say no. Not allowed.
I also was given up on when I was little and no one thought I would amount to anything, but I used it to get to where I needed to go with an advanced degree and lots of money and in the end, I just felt like a well paid slave, big learning curve.
Now I just need to surround myself with people I do not have to enable, make excuses for, rationalize bad behavior, have them control me because they think they have the right, turn the other way and pretend there unstable behavior is not happening. Personally I see lots of people getting hit in this manner, attacks of various kinds. I have had a few of my own, not fun.
We need to address the tyrants and the liars in our own life not make excuses for them and enable them. It diminshes both parties. It will come back to haunt you.
To deal with a personal issue in this manner I think is very brave, I do not think I personally would be able to do it this way.

[Mu2143]

Posted by Marikins (here)
I don't know the parties who have been banned. I accept that both what Paul and Bill say is true. The abrupt change in behavior is exactly what we should expect from someone being remote influenced or psychically attacked. We of all people should know this.

When I was reading this I heard a strange noise from the TV which is off , this is a supernatural confirmation !!! . Get this all time and I read the clock is 3:44 AM

[Caliban]

Posted by ulli (here)
Sorry, Jeffrey, that's all very nice, but I find this kind of New Age unconditional love preachiness no better than the coerciveness of any religious fanatic or even convinced atheist. It's fundamentalism at its worst.

Yes, real love allows for all feelings, and discounts none. Anger included. Love leaves none of them at the door, amputates none.
For too long we've been told that some of our feelings and thoughts are wrong or unloving. When all we want to do is be whole and self accepting.

[RunningDeer]

I’m having trouble with the thanks button. Strong points are made in a post, but they get cancelled out with opinions that I see differently.

Don’t take my silence for not caring. I’m here. I'm listening. It’s the best I can do.

RunningDeer ♡

[Jeffrey]

If I love somebody, I can feel a whole range of emotions towards them. Like anger for example. If I don't metabolism certain emotions properly -- whether on my own, with their help, or with the help of friends -- then they fester. I might bury them thinking what needs attention within will go away, but it just grows into something bigger.

Alternatively, anger can be a good metabolizer in itself. The body uses acid for very vital and specific purposes in the body. However, if there is too much or it goes beyond its intended boundaries, that's bad for the health of the body.

That being said, I take it upon myself to consider these things when dealing with someone I love.

Sometimes I can't think clearly about it because I'm so disturbed and overtaken by strong emotions on this end of the spectrum. That doesn't mean they are bad emotions to have, as in the metaphor with acid in the body. In such a case, I need to take a walk, exercise, pray, or just do something to help vent it that won't make the situation worse.

It all depends on the context. Everything has its proper place.

Bill, listen to me carefully. As a friend and a brother I am telling you this. This type of thread invites decay. The carcasses of Christine and Claudia's avatars have been laid out in public, inciting gossip and inviting the vultures to come out and pick at the remains. That's fine and all, but there are consequences to things like this. Building up the type of energy that is attracted to stuff like this is unwise. I'm not saying it was on purpose, but it is happening.

Eventually, it will turn on you. Thinking it can be contained by proper moderation is a naive position. Nature prevails, always, and she has a very ugly side to her. Necessary, but terrible. Think about what's brewing in here and consider deleting this thread.

I'll leave y'all to it then.

. . . one last thing about casting judgment in general.

Once again, Jung said it best, "but what if I should discover that the least among them all, the poorest of all the beggars, the most impudent of all the offenders, yea the very fiend himself - that these are within me, and that I myself stand in need of my own kindness, that I myself am the enemy who must be loved - what then? [...] there is no more talk of love and long suffering; we say to the brother within us, "Raca", and condemn and rage against ourselves. We hide him from the world; we deny ever having met this least among the lowly in ourselves, and had it been God himself who drew near to us in this despicable form, we should deny ourselves a thousand times before a single cock had crowed."

Peace.

[Nasu]

I feel for you Bill. The betrayal is horrid.. I am so sorry you had to go through something like this. I do think that karma will resolve things, but until then have courage. It seems, for me at least, I have had the karma sutra done to me over the years and like you in this instanse, not in a good way..

It does make us into who we are. Its not a glib comment to say it will make you stronger.. Ninjutsu is defined as being the art of endurance, so in a sense, this and other pains have made you into the truth ninja you are today.. Plants and wild animals grow and flourish only according to the amount of suffering they have endured, you too will endure this.. I have every faith in you...xxx.... N

Ps. I think the mods did a great job here, in every respect, a very measured and open disclosure of the finality of tough and chalenging events, thank you..x

[onawah]

Many good points have been made, but if we look at this situation as a whole, and all the steps necessary to complete the journey to resolution, then I think the following makes for a good roadmap.
I am not familiar with the man who wrote this, Lama Marut; I found the webpage almost by accident, but I think he gives a wholistic and realistic perspective for a situation such as we have here, from soup to nuts, so to speak, ie, from spiritual naivety (which my own mentor, Dr. Christopher Hills once said is extremely dangerous) to "grandmother love" to tough love, to forgiveness.
It's easy and quite normal to get stuck in one stage of that journey for awhile, but it can also be counterproductive, so keeping the final goal in mind can be helpful though not to the point that we skip any necessary stages, or we can end up virtually without a leg to stand on.
(Bold letters my emphasis.)

From the very beginning exert yourself in the practice of treating others and yourself the same. When the happiness and sufferings are the same, than you will care for all just as you do yourself. (8.90)
In the first years (decades?) of our spiritual path we are fighting against our deeply entrenched habit of thinking exclusively about ourselves. We know all too well that we just want to enjoy life and avoid pain and unpleasantness, and we train ourselves to acknowledge that others feel the same. We know how we want other people to treat us, and we extrapolate from that to imagine how others would wish to be treated by us. We put ourselves in others’ shoes and try to see things from their perspective.
But as time passes, we may come to realize that we need to think more deeply and with a more nuanced understanding about what kindness towards others really entails. Cultivating a more sophisticated version of this virtue requires us to move beyond a simple warm and fuzzy sentimentality. “Grandmother love,” as Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche called it – the kindness that manifests as extreme gentleness and benignity – is not always the kindest thing you can do for another person. The object of your concern may need a bit of “tough love” instead of a grandmother love that ends up just encouraging and enabling more self-destructive thinking and behavior.
Of course, tough love can simply function as an excuse to bully others if selfishness and our own inexhaustible ego needs are not taken out of the equation. As our spiritual practice matures and ages, we become more and more aware of the many and often subterranean strategies the self deploys to enhance itself. “Being kind” (in either the grandmotherly way or in the tough love modality) can become just another such self-seeking scheme, masking a deep-seated obsession about whether others like you and think of you as a “good person” or respect and fear you as their moral supervisor and cosmic boss.
“True compassion,” writes Trungpa Rinpoche, “is ruthless, from the ego’s point of view, because it does not consider ego’s drive to maintain itself.” A deeper, less self-interested form of kindness involves getting your ego out of the way altogether in order to do what is best for another – even when the other might not like you, praise you, or be grateful to you for doing so.
Another manifestation of a more fully developed take on kindness involves turning it towards oneself – not in the old, egotistical way but in a manner that spawns self-acceptance rather than self-centeredness.
Practitioners, like so many others in our modern culture, are susceptible to a particularly virulent form of self-absorption – depression and low self-esteem. Thinking about oneself and how bad we feel is still thinking about oneself and not about others. And with a little misunderstanding, we can perversely convince ourselves that self-pity is a sign of selflessness and that feeling like a loser is self-sacrificial.
A mature practitioner fully comprehends that being dejected and unhappy is not an advanced spiritual attainment. On the contrary, such gloomy self-indulgence is just another ego ploy. In order to combat it, we learn to exercise kindness towards ourselves in the form of forgiveness.
Anyone who has labored on a genuine spiritual path will have been encouraged from the start to forgive others who have hurt or angered us. But we must also learn to forgive ourselves for our failures and shortcomings, realizing that we are in this regard also just like other people. We too make mistakes. And we too deserve forgiveness.
In the spiritual life, we do have our little successes. But far more often, trying to live a good life is shot through with failure: we regularly fail to live up to the expectations we have of ourselves, to our own ideals, and to our highest goals. Instead of using failure and disappointment as excuses to give in to narcissistic pity, as mature practitioners we will treat ourselves as we have learned to treat others who fail.
We forgive.
And then we move on.
We get back on the job of working to become helpers who practice kindness to others instead of helpees who demand only the kindness of others. We doggedly, patiently, and cheerfully keep on keepin’ on, knowing that there’s nothing else nearly as important to be doing with this short and precious life.

From:http://lamamarut.org/2012/04/the-qua...rt-2-kindness/

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Jeffrey (here)
Bill, listen to me carefully. As a friend and a brother I am telling you this. This type of thread invites decay. The carcasses of Christine and Claudia's avatars have been laid out in public, inciting gossip and inviting the vultures to come out and pick at the remains. That's fine and all, but there are consequences to things like this. Building up the type of energy that is attracted to stuff like this is unwise. I'm not saying it was on purpose, but it is happening.

I disagree with your premise, vigorously.

Sometimes it is true, as you say, that when person A calls out person B for some misdeed, the real problem lies more with person A's inadequately processed anger.

But sometimes, it is more the other way. Sometimes B should be called out for their misdeeds.

One of the fundamental mechanisms essential to healthy communities is shaming those who have acted dishonorably. I do not accept principles that categorically reject the validity of any such shaming.

I stand firm on my right and duty to support healthy communities, including at times by shaming dishonorable acts.

[Daozen]

I hope you get through this Bill. It's OK to be mad. I wouldn't listen to all the coffee-mug wisdom about being "non-judgmental."- people should be openly held to account for their actions.

I think this thread should be public. I don't believe in sweeping things like this under the carpet.

The other party can write a statement if they want.

Best Wishes,

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by Jeffrey (here)
...

I disagree with your premise, vigorously.

And I do, as well.

Jeff — forgive me, but I have to say this.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

You use the word 'love' a lot, but your posts portray you as shallowly pious and self-righteous in an area where you don't know the facts — and, more worryingly, don't seem to be at all interested in what they really may be.

A true friend would have written me (or any of the other mods) privately, with sincere concern, knowing all the parties involved (and, heaven knows, maybe being in a position to help... did that ever occur to you? That's an honest question) — to ask in confidence what on earth had really happened.

But instead, you're grandstanding, and making yourself look not only naive but naively judgmental and naively opinionated. Your posts here have made up a sequence of saccharine, thinly-disguised insults.

I'd have thought you to be more wise, caring, and balanced. But rather, you seem to want to be a preacher, and quite a condescending one, too. You may have a lot to learn before you ever start talking with wisdom to real people about the real world, from which you appear to be very detached.

Here's one of your insults: implicit in your judgment is that the entire notion of love and trust (and, with that, an almost superhuman degree of responsibility, care and patience, too) was somehow quite unknown to myself or any of the moderators.

You seem to be saying that love, together with all these other qualities, was somehow quite absent. And — you suggest, really very arrogantly, that you may be the only person in the room who really knows what love is.

How wrong you are. You just couldn't be further from the truth.

If you want to know that truth, then write to me privately, and tell me in equal truth that you'd genuinely like to know exactly what happened over the course of the last 14 months. That'd be entirely welcome. But only if your request is sincere.

In reply, I'll give you my very best shot, and maybe the other mods will too. It might take a bit of time, because there's a great deal of detail, all documented.

But if you really don't want to know, then please leave this thread... and stop pretending to be a friend when you seem barely qualified to know what that really means.

[Callista]

Hats off to the mods who have pushed through with this disclosure – and Avalon is all about disclosure – yes?

The human collective is now demanding transparency and we are seeing it in all aspects of human interaction – look at the political scenario with transparency emerging from a myriad of events around the globe.

If we are demanding transparency on a collective level, then we must be prepared to experience it from a personal point of view also.

The Truth will always come to light at some point or other, and we might as well face it now.

It won’t get any prettier with age.

On a personal note, Will and I respect and admire and love Bill for being the Gentleman he so obviously is, and we trust that this ugly truth will be resolved as soon as possible so he can move on with his life without carrying the shadow of this situation.

[Valley]

My heart goes out to all involved... Bill, Christine, mods & members. May we all learn well from these 'trials' & 'trails'... as we keep learning more about the 'heart of the matter'... the Heart. Even if all 'accusations'/statements are accurate... Does this mean that we should withhold our love for one or another? If so, then where is it that we should 'draw that line'? For myself I've learned that people and their feelings are more 'pertinent' than possessions... and that projecting negativity onto another is never worth my time... it never makes me feel any better.

What is the 'proper' course of action? Everyone decides that for themselves... and everyone has their own 'good reasons', as they see it, in any given situation. I also know that when emotions run high, or when folks feel violated, they act out in 'distorted' ways they normally wouldn't... Which is not an excuse, but a fact.

I don't see any 'bad' people here in this story... Questionable actions that ask for explanations/reparations, yes. I'd like to hear all sides before 'passing any judgements'.

Wishing All Well...

[kirolak]

I just don't know what to say, either but find the idea of attracting a source to take something away quite dreadful - I have found that the only things that I "lost" or had taken/stolen from me were items I had mixed feelings about; for example about 20 years ago I entered a new relationship, & lost interest in my beautiful, concert-level classical guitar, even to the point of thinking I should perhaps sell it. Within weeks my house was broken into, & all valuables, including the guitar, were taken. It broke my heart, but I soon understood what had happened on an energetic level, & it was all my fault.

But I don't see Bill's situation as the same. . . . . but it is quite awful, & I wish all concerned health & healing.

[Fairy Friend]

How disappointing that money I donated was not used to support Project Avalon as intended and it's being used for who knows what purpose. If I donated to a charity and it was supposed to feed the hungry or give water to those dying of thirst and it is embezzled, then the purpose it was intended for is affected. People who could be helped are not. I hesitate to donate to that charity again as well. The charity may not have hard feelings nor a need to forgive, but there are ripples of those affected and it's purpose derailed.