Simon Parkes: Questions of integrity and credibility

[RunningDeer]

Posted by bettye198 (here)
I was waiting for examples of where Simon perpetrated a wrongful harmful act, where he contradicted himself or became psychopathic. But the conjecture seemed to be focused on his history and his counseling efforts of which I have no interest in.

Post #256 crosses the line on many levels:

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
.
This e-mail was sent to me an hour ago (name and address supplied). I copy it here verbatim with nothing changed.

It should be read by everyone on the forum, and by anyone who has ever had any dealings with Simon Parkes, or who plans to.


~~~

Mr. Ryan,

I have thought much about writing this and have decided I have duty as human in compassion of humans to finally do so.

Three years ago I was introduced to Simon Parkes.

This introduction took place through a brilliant woman who is my loved and cherished friend She is a medical doctor, transpersonal psychotherapist, coach, mediator/ networker, workshop facilitator/ trainer and artist.

I have long worked in esoteric and metaphysical fields and my friend felt Simon and I may find mutual benefit in meeting.

As a result of my friend's introduction, I eventually received email from Simon requesting I be of assistance to him at any time he may feel himself in need of information in his dealings with his alien 'associates'. Although I found myself at odds with Simon's opinions and findings, disagreed with his general hypothesis, I felt loyalty to my friend and agreed to assist Simon if the occasion arose.

My friend, as stated, is an accomplished woman, very much aware and esoterically informed.

There came a time she agreed to enlist Simon's help upon his alarm to her of her alleged bloodline related compromised state. Simon assured her she was in great need of assistance to extricate herself from her very serious condition. In the process of their intense work together over a few months, they agreed to form a work partnership in attempt to combine their mutual expertise into a workable system of professionally based help for persons in need of esoteric/metaphysical therapy. With Simon's "deprogramming" skills and my friend's professional assistance they determined to build a network of qualified help for those in need. In many ways it was she who had encouraged him to use his abilities in a more focused and structured way, always with clear understanding this would have to happen with professional therapeutic emotional support/back up - from onset.

Within a few months Simon professed his love to my friend, stated he was divorcing his wife and requested my friend's hand in marriage. She was elated and joyfully accepted his proposal on the basis of their by now close and intended future association as outlined above.

Within a few months of his proposal Simon abruptly retreated, noticeably altered in nature, communicated in very erratic and evasive messages, dismissed all responsibility as her alleged "deprogrammer" and derided my and my friend's cautionary notes he had been adversely affected to a degree that gave evidence he had been spiritually, psychically altered - heart and soul. He behaved from an empathic and heart encoded void. His heart became a drive train to his body functions only.

He behaved as though this woman whom he allegedly loved and wanted to marry never existed.

This capable, able and independent woman was devastated. She felt betrayed at highest levels.

She suffered debilitating psychic attacks in the following months that we came to suspect as emanating from the beings with whom Simon declares himself involved. We did not feel Simon directly responsible but rather serving as a useful tool to other realm energies.

This story is a much more complex tale than I relate here; I feel details I have given suffice in relating a clear overview.

My point in relating this is simple: I have recently followed your forum posts re SP and those whose lives he has adversely, by their admissions, affected.

His cavalier attitude and platitudes of 'daddy made me do it' and 'I was used in performance of these behaviors' attended by a public apology and subsequent withdrawal of that apology is not action to be taken lightly nor abided.

Simon's apologies, if one bit heartfelt and sincere, will have gone first and foremost to my friend.

He declared his love for her, proposed marriage, business and personal lives intertwined in fullness and trust; deceit and amorality never showing hand until he behaved as I have above described and abandoned her in a moment, minus one bit of remorse or compassion over his actions with her ever expressed.

Empathically connected beings would never behave as has Simon.

I am lineage similar to Simon's. I know the process therein. This was my friend's primary reasoning for connecting me to Simon. I know the lineage.

I am, however, heart encoded, soul aware, a mindful and loving being whose mission sits behind the scenes and lies at ready to do all I can to help human beings remember their magnificence and re-engage their fullness. I have active championing from master teachers of this and other realms, some the very beings Simon lays claim to and denigrates in every manner possible through his false narratives and vile abuses of the persons he claims to help. The help I offer is given through the sacred trust placed in me in eon of association to these beings - I know how this process should be conducted.

I suffered the sorrow my friend dealt with, the abusive tactics and wounds Simon's actions caused her, the demands laid she submit as lesser to his master status, his claims of chord attachment removal and necessary control tactics...the same mundane proffer he apparently offers all his 'clients', scenarios barely differing. The difference for my friend was the help I and others were able to offer her in dealing with this person's abominated status.

I, as stated, have many times felt compelled to give testimony in response to forum posts re Simon. However, I am ever mindful autonomous beings have personal choices to make and the freedom to do so in whatever manner they choose, when they choose. This sacred truth is one to be respected. I have therefore kept silent; we all have our path to travel.

With Simon's recent proffer of apology while disavowing personal responsibility - the daddy made me do it syndrome - I felt compelled to come forward.

I present this story to provide a full and comprehensive angle of view to those who may be contemplating Simon's services.

When one such as Simon, a brother operating from skewed perspective, presents discord and abusive control in guise of help and therapeutic remedy we can be assured we have stumbled upon a disease of a sort which must be avoided to prevent infection.

When honor has been removed from the equation of a process what trust in that process can remain?

I feel an obligation to humans on this world and to their being. I have as duty the need to encourage all who may read this to remember who and what they are as human.

Human souls are outstretched source quanta feeding and nurturing itself in search of gnosis and in such search will encounter all manner of like searchers. This must be understood.

Human souls are brilliant frequency flow weaving and molding reality with every pronouncement of thought. Thought is intricate reality placement. This must be understood.

I encourage all humans to remember no energy, alien or human, shadowed or light's other side, can wrest control of their master structure unless submitted to, permission given. Frightful events and visits from other realm entities can seem insurmountable invasive structure unless we switch gears from victim to experiencer emphatically demanding the unwanted presence remove itself. NO is a powerful germ of control.

From the depths of my being I urge all humans to remember the power within. No thing surmounts the power within the human soul complex.

I thank you for your time, Mr. Ryan.
If you wish to share this mail I request you do not share my name.

If you have questions please let me know.

Thank you for your brilliant and much appreciated work over the years.

My warmest regards,
[name supplied]

[Sierra]

Posted by bettye198 (here)
I was waiting for examples of where Simon perpetrated a wrongful harmful act, where he contradicted himself or became psychopathic. But the conjecture seemed to be focused on his history and his counseling efforts of which I have no interest in.

It is as a counselor there are problems. An example:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1077877

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
... please.

The topic of this thread, started by Alberto e Daniela, is how Simon Parkes handles himself in counseling sessions, and how he manages the scheduling and booking of those sessions, with paid clients. That's all.

It potentially affects quite a lot of people who may be at their most vulnerable.

The thread contains specific experiences, that are problematic and concerning, reported by known, real, people, who are forum members. This isn't casual, malevolent, irresponsible innuendo or rumor.

I've been sent a recording of one session, and it's a horror story. Any certified counselor would be banned for life — with no risk of exaggeration — if a formal complaint was made to the certificating authority. In this case, nothing can be done, as Simon isn't qualified or certified.

Of course, I can't and won't share that publicly or privately. It's a little silly, if I may gently say, to ask for that to be posted as 'evidence'. It's for those concerned, and only for those concerned, to share those recordings if they wish or choose. But the session recordings all exist.

This isn't untrue, invented, any kind of a 'smear' or 'attack', or a false malevolent rumor. It is what it is, nothing more or less, and it's merely pretty awful stuff that breaches any counselor's code one might ever conceive of.

[Spellbound]

Admittedly, I haven't read all the Simon threads here at Avalon (there are too many to keep up with). I do apologize of this has been beaten to death, but can someone please explain these accusations involving unprotected sex as part of healing?? Did Simon convince people he counselled to have sex with him?? When I read the sexual innuendo in a few posts here in this thread, admittedly I was a bit lost. Can someone clarify or give me the Coles Notes??

Dave - Toronto

[Hervé]

Posted by Spellbound (here)
[...]
... Can someone clarify or give me the Coles Notes??

Dave - Toronto

Honestly: would you trust someone's "notes" or would you rather make up your own mind?

Here is the thread where most of the known complaints have been logged: Our experience with Simon Parkes as a counselor

[Spellbound]

Thx Herve, I'm aware of that thread and I read the first couple pages of it when it started and as I understand it, he didn't follow through on some things and became unreachable. However, I'm guessing the sexual accusations are a little further down the 350 replies, which I don't really have the time to skim through. That's why I was asking for someone to clarify here what these accusations were as some posters were alluding to it here.

Dave - Toronto

[Daozen]

Hi Dave, there's an advanced search function where I think you can search individual threads. Don't know if it can be used from a phone.

Some of Bill's posts are listed here:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1096524

[Spellbound]

Thx Daozen,

I'm trying to search the thread that Herve posted but I can't seem to figure it out via the advanced search (typed in unprotected sex and it only came up with posts from this thread). If people prefer not to repeat them, I can respect that. No biggie, I was just curious.

Dave - Toronto

[giovonni]

Sticking a fork in it ...

Posted by giovonni (here)
tough love ...



Who'll Be The Next In Line

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=YBOcbldaXuE

The Kinks

[Ewan]

Posted by RunningDeer (here)

Spectrum of helpful vs. the enabler: a part of me asks, "Have I stop them from a growth opportunity by interrupting their process?" Blind compassion may really be a way to prevent the personal hurt I felt in those moments. It’s one of the hardest things to do; be strong enough to allow the other to stumble and figure it out for her/himself.

Just wanted to isolate that sentence Paula and say, 'Yes, yes, yes!'

Some part of you wants to spare them the pain, but deeper down you know the pain is necessary.

[greybeard]

Ultimately you can not speed up or slowdown your progress or someone else's
Its stages---at one point in time I discovered that there was a an ability to heal--I wanted to heal everyone.
Eventually I settled down and realized that if it was the karma of the person to be healed and that to happen through these hands then thats what happened--if it was not supposed to happen then it did not.

Early on a clients cancer made a miraculous disappearance--wow I thought--a few month later a mutual friend told me the former client had died--I thought the cancer had returned but no an aneurysm had killed her.--totally unrelated to cancer.

So relative to the last few posts--If we felt moved to question Simon's integrity then thats what happened--if we felt compassion then that was what we were meant to feel.
If people having read recent posts decide to go see Simon then thats for their growth and Simon's
If they are put off going then equally thats for their growth too.

Who knows what is right or beneficial?

Chris

[Cidersomerset]

[Mod-edit: I removed the remaining off-topic, distracting, derailing content from the post; Hervé]

[RunningDeer]

Posted by Daozen (here)
Hi Dave, there's an advanced search function where I think you can search individual threads. Don't know if it can be used from a phone.

This is the updated list with a link correction of some of Bill's posts:

Alberto e Daniela's Thread: Our experience with Simon Parkes as a counselor

◦ Post #9
◦ Post #31
◦ Post #79
◦ Post #90
◦ Post #148*
◦ Post #196
◦ Post #242
◦ Post #256*
◦ Post #258
◦ Post #274*
◦ Post #278*
◦ Post #292*
◦ Post #295*
◦ Post #317

[Tangri]

Posted by greybeard (here)
Yes Ulli agreed.

I know I have said it before (Several times smiling) but when i posted that Simon was talking and I reversed his name Parks to read Krap, I got visited by a mod, I was reported by a member for voicing that opinion. Also got a PM which I will not going into cept for saying --- "That I should know better than insult a fellow member."
A fellow member to my mind posts on other subjects than just himself.

The mod was quite taken with Simon as a Spiritual guide.
Things have changed
That was quite some time ago but I hope when anyone voices similar sentiments on a new star that some heed is taken.

I did not take it personally Im just making a point.

Chris

You are not alone, with receiving that warning. I received same moderator email "That I should know better than insult a fellow member.". 2 years ago, when I tried to tune some resonance on readers. It was silenced prematuraly before even got little tremor for respond. Maybe there was a cut and paste reply policy in those times.

[greybeard]

Posted by Tangri (here)

Posted by greybeard (here)
Yes Ulli agreed.

I know I have said it before (Several times smiling) but when i posted that Simon was talking and I reversed his name Parks to read Krap, I got visited by a mod, I was reported by a member for voicing that opinion. Also got a PM which I will not going into cept for saying --- "That I should know better than insult a fellow member."
A fellow member to my mind posts on other subjects than just himself.

The mod was quite taken with Simon as a Spiritual guide.
Things have changed
That was quite some time ago but I hope when anyone voices similar sentiments on a new star that some heed is taken.

I did not take it personally Im just making a point.

Chris

You are not alone, with receiving that warning. I received same moderator email "That I should know better than insult a fellow member.". 2 years ago, when I try to tune some resonance on readers. It was silenced prematuraly before even got little tremor for respond. Maybe there was a cut and paste reply policy in those times.

Glad to see your post Tangri
Hopefully longterm members/regular posters/contributors, will be listened to in the future.

I also hope that if Bill interviews a person he does not promote him/her almost as the star of the moment---Im of the nature "Credit where credit is due but lets wait and find out where this goes---neutral in other words" The alternative community would seem to have a "Look what we have found, kind of attitude"

This is my opinion and it may not be that popular, but experience on a forum gives insight as to the way things tend to go--History repeats itself--so it would seem--thing is to learn from it.

Chris
PS
If we want the alternative community to be taken seriously we have to be very careful what we promote or seem to endorse.
The housecleaning that has gone on due to the original thread highlighting Simons behavior has been of great service to Avalon and I hope the rest of the community follows on from this.

Avalon has shown integrity and credibility.

Chris

[Tangri]

Naivety is a core target and evils push it to another engineered disorders which one of it called Willful ignorance (Deliberate ignorance); intentionally ignoring a fact when one has every reason to believe about its existence. When knowledge of existence of a particular fact is an essential part of an offence, such knowledge may be established if the person is aware of a high probability of its existence, unless she,/he actually believes that it does not exist.

Deliberate ignorance may be established when:

1)The person actually knew about a particular fact.

2)The person deliberately closed his/her eyes to what she/he had every reason to believe was the fact.

3)The requisite proof of knowledge on the part of a person cannot be established by merely demonstrating that she/he was negligent, careless or foolish.


PS: Deliberate ignorance can be a crime.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1036911

PS : This post was not intent to put in accused position our fellow member which I hope she easily can understand.

[greybeard]

In fairness to Bill, when he interviewed Simon he had no way of knowing what lurked behind the facade.

As far as supporters of Simon go---The ego is very clever and cunning--it would rather kill its host than admit it got it wrong.
People are prepared to die for a belief ---or/and are in total denial of evidence presented.
They truly belief they are standing up for the greatest good of human kind.

Chris

[araucaria]

Sometimes the best of intentions is not enough to reach the wisest position. I think Callista’s contribution from Cosmic Awareness falls in that category. We are told that on a higher level, souls are fulfilling secret soul agreements working out karmic issues together. I have commented in a number of posts on the economic issues relating to this cosmic accounting system and also in its relation to the religion of debt and redemption, e.g. here. Joseph Farrell explains it better than I ever could in Financial Vipers of Venice: highly recommended reading.

Taking matters to this higher level is a way of saying: this is how things work, there is no alternative. How very convenient for the perpetrators, who can always say they are only collecting a debt from victims who somehow signed up for it. We only need to pursue the analogy with banking a little further to realize that secret soul agreements sound like private Swiss bank accounts, and that all kinds of crimes and misdemeanours such as are committed by loan sharks, the holders of offshore accounts, money launderers, and banksters of every kind likely have their counterparts on this level. We also note how, even in the absence of criminality, there is still the issue of the money supply and the gap between rich and poor. If karma is purely about solvency, then it fails to provide an answer to issues arising from those on a tiny budget struggling to make ends meet alongside others with a huge cash flow. Hence you get the ‘Holy Sinner’ type (the phrase is by Thomas Mann) like St Augustine of Hippo, who sinned hard before turning into an eminent doctor of the Church. Taken to extremes, the most elevated souls of all would have to have been/become absolute devils: it makes no difference whether it is because they have all this negative karma to redeem or all this positive karma to spend. This is the worst kind of religion where you take your punishment here and now and hope for your reward in some hereafter, which in financial terms amounts to off-the-books transactions, in other words black operations.

Our current financial system is not cast in stone: we can and need to change it. Similarly, karma is not necessarily a cosmic law: it is simply how things work at the moment with the financial and religious system currently in place. This all needs to be changed. I don’t believe for a moment that I for one have ever been evil enough to be able to do all the good I intend to do. Evil on anything like the levels we are seeing is totally unnecessary. It is a question of intelligence and empathy. What, you may ask, has intelligence got to do with empathy? Simply this: if karma is like taking turns on torturing each other, then the more empathy you have to understand the pain you are inflicting, the less pain you will need to suffer in order to understand the value of empathy. The smart thing to do would be to catch on quickly in order to minimize the pain. However, while it would seem pretty dumb to need to go through the whole enchilada of sado-masochism, another form of smartness might be to disbelieve in the entire concept of karma, or even to have invented it in order to keep others in line. This second form of smartness trumps the other, like playing banker to a bunch of docile customers on small incomes with maybe a few savings, a mortgage to pay off and the occasional overdraft, all very manageable and profitable. The next step in this process then is to dismiss individual karma as a mug’s game. Collectively we can do things that might otherwise seem harmful to individual souls. This is where human justice comes in; it has nothing to do with being personally judgemental. We are talking about the full panoply of legislation, complaints reporting, policing, trial and ultimately response, punitive or otherwise. There is nothing personal about this at all; on the contrary, it is one law for all, a line in the sand that you can cross, but no longer undetected.

Karma is not natural, universal law; to use a Greybeardian phrase without getting personal, it is krap and we can skrap it. To claim otherwise is like saying it is a law of physics that iron floats in water, as evidenced by millions of tons of the stuff floating around out oceans. No, iron does not float in water: iron shaped in such a way as to be escorted by a large volume of air floats in water. This air might be seen as mostly captive; if it had consciousness, it might want to mutiny and emit SOS signals to escape from this microcosm built by those serving an iron-first agenda back into the macrocosm which has a true law stating that air is free to soar wherever it wants. The heaviest form of earth, the heavy element, has harnessed the lightest, air so as to bend the rules; the tail of materialism wagging the dog of spiritualism. Transposing this analogy to entities with individual and collective willpower, we could say that, similarly, evil has risen from the depths and harnessed good in a way that bends the natural laws locally, but only locally; the ‘law’ of karma is at best a byelaw. Evil then is no more than a parasite masquerading as a universal equal to good, or even more powerful.

Hence, when I refer to legislation, it is to the relatively insignificant matter of repealing a byelaw. We do this collectively at the spiritual level, which then filters down to the material level. This means that what until now was allowed has become unacceptable to the point where it has got to stop. From now on (new legislation is usually not retroactive), the karmic fat cats are going to pay their taxes.

This goes way beyond the individual case of someone like Simon Parkes. It doesn’t matter one jot where he actually fits into this broader picture, and it is entirely up to him where he goes from here. But he needs to know that while possibly disclosing information to others, most of all information is being disclosed to him, namely that the situation has changed. I mentioned complaints reporting and policing. What we are seeing on Avalon and elsewhere is that victims are finally getting a hearing: they are being taken seriously as victims, and accordingly coming forward in numbers. They are no longer being treated as perpetrators, who ‘asked for it’ (as rape victims are told) because they allegedly signed up for it through a ‘soul agreement’. As Groucho Marx said in a more flippant context, that verbal agreement is not worth the paper it is written on. Bring me evidence that will stand up in an earth court where the case is being heard. We need to read the fine print in order to test the validity of that contract. Until you can do that, either willingly or unwillingly (the choice is yours), you will abide by the current human laws of this planet, a planet to which you are presumably bound by a soul agreement to honour and respect; otherwise, regardless of race or colour, you are an unwelcome alien here on false pretences and will be asked to leave.

To sum up my disagreement with the Cosmic Awareness material, which is substantive, i.e. not related to its status as channelling, it talks with considerable wisdom, but in individual terms, whereas I see things from the collective standpoint. The analogy of the garden (looking after one’s own garden and not criticizing other people’s) overlooks this collective aspect. Most disputes are not over gardens per se, but over the no man’s land interface of high fences and walls and overgrown hedges; or if it is their content, it is from the broader perspective of a neighbourhood as a whole. In either case, the notion of individual gardens operating entirely independently is seen to be invalid. These boundary conflicts become irrelevant when we consider the earth as a single planetwide garden we all have to tend together. We do have a right and even a duty to react to what others are doing; but since we do so in a spirit of harmonization, it makes no sense to do so in a manner other than in a spirit of harmony.

[onawah]

Good food for thought, Araucaria.
Excusing bad behavior because of past karma or soul contracts is not wisdom at all.
Forgiveness and rising above crimes committed on oneself is certainly an option.
Not that bad behavior does not have to be addressed and prevented.
But if you understand karma at all, it is clear that heaping abuse upon someone because one is angry about abusive behavior makes no sense, particularly when it is done in the manner of an angry mob.
In that case, quite simply, the medium is the message.

[Sierra]

Posted by onawah (here)
Good food for thought, Araucaria. Heaping abuse upon someone because one is angry about abusive behavior makes no sense, particularly when it is done in the manner of an angry mob.
Quite simply, the medium IS the message.

Onawah, we have not been heaping abuse as an angry mob. We've been reporting multiple statements from unrelated people in unrelated locations, building a consistent picture of Simon's abuse of clients. As I said earlier, the odds that people with no prior knowledge of each other sat down to coordinate stories to "get" Simon does not compute.

We report the issue to protect members, and guest readers from similar sexual and emotional abuse. Having read the material presented, one can choose from a place of knowledge whether to play with Simon or to avoid Simon. There is nothing wrong with being able to make one's free will choice based on a clear(er) understanding of Simon's issues.

Please quit manipulating language to make those who disagree with your perspective appear as out to get Simon. It does your cause no good, and makes you appear quite biased. It does Simon no good either that we must constantly reiterate the evidence of his dysfunctional behavior in response to your attempts to convince/picture otherwise. You may actually block his growth when you direct your energies to denial and justification rather than self examination. This is not the way of a true friend.

Thread after thread, and no progress made, yes? While I no longer expect you to acknowledge there are valid concerns brought up by multiple testimonies, I wish you would understand you damage your relationships (and reputation) with other members by repeatedly crying wolf, wolf, by repeatedly ignoring what members have to say as being of no relevance.

I am not going to shut up Onawah. It's not personal. It's my duty as a moderator and I truly do not enjoy it. What are you getting out of beating this very dead horse? I have long considered myself your friend, I am your friend, I want to be your friend. A friendship without respect for truth, and integrity though, will not bear good fruit.

I think most people would love to drop the subject but as long as you continue to drive an agenda that ignores the evidence, you will trigger corrections by those who do not wish to hear reports from future victims.

We have expressed real and valid concerns, and you may ignore the evidence exposed till the cows come home, and the evidence will still be there. We can see it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Posted by araucaria (here)
.
This goes way beyond the individual case of someone like Simon Parkes. It doesn’t matter one jot where he actually fits into this broader picture, and it is entirely up to him where he goes from here. But he needs to know that while possibly disclosing information to others, most of all information is being disclosed to him, namely that the situation has changed. I mentioned complaints reporting and policing. What we are seeing on Avalon and elsewhere is that victims are finally getting a hearing: they are being taken seriously as victims, and accordingly coming forward in numbers. They are no longer being treated as perpetrators, who ‘asked for it’ (as rape victims are told) because they allegedly signed up for it through a ‘soul agreement’.

To sum up my disagreement with the Cosmic Awareness material, it talks with considerable wisdom, but in individual terms, whereas I see things from the collective standpoint.

These boundary conflicts become irrelevant when we consider the earth as a single planetwide garden we all have to tend together. We do have a right and even a duty to react to what others are doing; but since we do so in a spirit of harmonization, it makes no sense to do so in a manner other than in a spirit of harmony.

Ara: Very interesting idea. I can kind of get behind the concept. I'm sure you have heard of the Judeo Year of Jubilee, when a vast reset takes place every 75 years, ancestral property sold/stolen/wasted/lost/gambled away returns to the family line. All debts wiped away. A clean slate to return/build/increase the family vineyards, the ancestral home. Not that the mandatory resets EVER took place, and only the intelligent rested their crop lands every seven years as required by Torah law.

It also ties in with the current theory that we are in the time of choice, a division according to one beingness where some souls continue in the current extremely polarized environment and others move on (Hopi Rock Prophecy). If it is graduation day, karma in the form of karmic report cards to continue the current analogy, are meaningless. You are either clutching a diploma or not.

[Callista]