Does the Catholic Church get a bum rap

[Teakai]

Posted by RedeZra (here)
Yes Teakai that's what I'm trying to express ; )

the Church has been successfully infiltrated and subverted by the Great state or sate which governs the Western world

We agree then.
Only when did that happen?

The roman catholic church killed off the cathars, persecuted the pagans, burned the library at Alexandria, flailed the skin from the bones of Hypatia, burned the witches and corrupted science.

It only became the roman catholic church through murder and persecution. Anything good that has come from that has happened despite it, not because of it.

[silentghost80]

>>>>>>>>>no<<<<<<<<<<<

[Icecold]

Posted by RedeZra (here)
Only good puppets of the Money Masters bashes the Catholic Church

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=TOAOMu916v4

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Aq0lZ57AdWU

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=q0MuzDLk5mk

[araucaria]

Messianism arises from a misunderstanding of the message ‘I am authentic by being me’, which for a follower becomes ‘I am authentic by being (like) him, i.e. not me’. The teacher-pupil relationship is itself a mistake, implying knowledge to be given and received, hence a power structure. We are actually truly authentic by all learning together. For the Kabbalists, the messiah is ‘made not to come’, it is that which is to come, not perfection now but perfectibility: ‘Man’s perfection lies in his perfectibility’ (Levinas).

This is why I have a problem with someone like David Wilcock, who claims to be a teacher, and has to contradict people who see him as a messiah figure. To say one is not a messiah figure is like saying do not think of elephants: you can’t stop people thinking about elephants, however much you tell them not to. I like David, but teaching is one thing I am not into at all.

If by the Church we mean the people, I know of many wonderful folks who are Catholics, and being Catholics definitely has something to do with their being wonderful. Go figure. C G Jung has some answers I know. Basically I think it comes down to basic goodness; seeing no evil tends to create goodness everywhere. This can be confused with naivety, but I prefer the notion of ‘positive disingenuousness’ (don’t go googling it, I’ve just made it up ). I think this is what has happened to Charles on this forum, he has had to go with the flow.

[Arrowwind]

The Catholic Church gets exactly what it has created Karmically. Not one iota less. Not one iota more. Most of the enforcers, liers, pedophiles, murderers from the church are buring in thier own self created hell or will be soon... the minons that have supported them are just mindless dupes, that have been subject to control. They have not thier own minds for the most part and they will pay for that too with living without freedom and not seeing a pathway to their own enlightenment, and leaving it to others to medel with their spiritual destiny

I suspect this will be the last pope.

[shiva777]

the "church" is just a tool used to justify wars,mind control and disempowerment...as the "elite" or "33" or whatever you want to call them lose their control,their instruments of control also get exposed and lose their mesmerising influence over the masses...only the truths will remain,the deceptions are being seen by even the most blinded

...this forum seems to have taken a very dark turn towards a new instrument of the "elite" and anyone who speaks out about it gets banned because the moderators have been intimidated and conned in to believing the spokesperson for the new "tool"

[RedeZra]

Posted by Teakai (here)
The roman catholic church killed off the cathars, persecuted the pagans, burned the library at Alexandria, flailed the skin from the bones of Hypatia, burned the witches and corrupted science.

Stop parroting simple propaganda and at least backup your blames


We don't know who burnt the the Great library of Alexandria !

the sources disagree between three suspects - Julius Caesar, Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria and Moslem Caliph Omar

http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm


Pope Innocent III declared the Crusade against the Cathars and permitted a confiscation of captured Cathar land in Languedoc when the papal legate Pierre de Castelnau was assassinated allegedly by an agent serving the Cathar count of Toulouse

And so the northern French nobility raised up against the Cathar nobles of the south primarily for the prospect of conquering new lands

When a Cistercian commander was asked how to tell Cathars from Catholics he replied "Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism


Alexandria in the time of Hypatia was the scene of a bitter power struggle between the Patriarch Cyril and the Roman governor Orestes which escalated to include the Pagan and Jewish supporters of Orestes against the Christian supporters of Cyril

When Orestes by the instigation of Jews publicly tortured Hirax - a supporter of Cyril - then a group of desert monks brutally killed Hypatia who was a supporter of Orestes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria



If you only focus on the past errors of the Catholic Church then you might miss the atrocities being commited by the Western governments today !

[RedeZra]

Posted by Arrowwind (here)
The Catholic Church gets exactly what it has created Karmically. Not one iota less. Not one iota more. Most of the enforcers, liers, pedophiles, murderers from the church are buring in thier own self created hell or will be soon... the minons that have supported them are just mindless dupes, that have been subject to control. They have not thier own minds for the most part and they will pay for that too with living without freedom and not seeing a pathway to their own enlightenment, and leaving it to others to medel with their spiritual destiny

What then has karma in store for the aggressive American Empire ?

[truthseekerdan]

RedeZra my friend, may I suggest that you take some time and read this fascinating book by Dolores Cannon: "Jesus and the Essenes"
If you need an ebook copy just let me know, I'm more than happy to send you one.
Meantime let's stop the blaming game and start showing some love. After all this is what Jesus would do -- isn't that right?

[RedeZra]

Posted by truthseekerdan (here)
RedeZra my friend, may I suggest that you take some time and read this fascinating book by Dolores Cannon: "Jesus and the Essenes"
If you need an ebook copy just let me know, I'm more than happy to send you one.
Meantime let's stop the blaming game and start showing some love. After all this is what Jesus would do -- isn't that right?

Tnx Dan but you know that I don't subscribe to the whispers of etheral entities ; )

[Teakai]

Posted by RedeZra (here)
Stop parroting simple propaganda and at least backup your blames

We don't know who burnt the the Great library of Alexandria !

the sources disagree between three suspects - Julius Caesar, Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria and Moslem Caliph Omar

http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm


Pope Innocent III declared the Crusade against the Cathars and permitted a confiscation of captured Cathar land in Languedoc when the papal legate Pierre de Castelnau was assassinated allegedly by an agent serving the Cathar count of Toulouse

And so the northern French nobility raised up against the Cathar nobles of the south primarily for the prospect of conquering new lands

When a Cistercian commander was asked how to tell Cathars from Catholics he replied "Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism


Alexandria in the time of Hypatia was the scene of a bitter power struggle between the Patriarch Cyril and the Roman governor Orestes which escalated to include the Pagan and Jewish supporters of Orestes against the Christian supporters of Cyril

When Orestes by the instigation of Jews publicly tortured Hirax - a supporter of Cyril - then a group of desert monks brutally killed Hypatia who was a supporter of Orestes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria


If you only focus on the past errors of the Catholic Church then you might miss the atrocities being commited by the Western governments today !

I don’t know, Redezra, I think you give me too much credit in regard to the attention and interest I have for the roman catholic church.

I know the roman catholic church was made official by Constantine, who was a ruler, who slayed people and raped and pillaged to extend his empire. I'm doubting that he was really interested in people getting spiritual knowledge, so much as uniting warring religious factions within his empire and being able to control them.
He was hardly a spiritually oriented man and yet he decided what stayed and what didn’t.
Not a good start.
Following on from that we have a succession of power hungry men – forget the women, they’re out - interested only in their own promotion, prestige and power.

The man who said this: "Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own." Was later made a saint by the catholic church, except what he said where I read it was “Kill them all, let God sort them out.” This is a religion about a man who said ‘love each other’, ‘turn the other cheek’. Are we seeing the hypocrisy, yet?

I think there might be two versions of history – the history as written by the church and the history written by others. I think the church history is likely to be biased in its own favour.

I don’t much like organised religions at all – your examples above are part of the reason why. They are separatist and hypocritical, violent when it suits and rarely spiritual.

The roman catholic church with all it’s money and pomp and ceremony and sleazy child molesting priests is up there as the worst of them imo.

You obviously disagree and that’s fine.

[Icecold]

In 415 A.D. Under the command of bishop Cyril, the Alexandrian Library and university and the Serapis Temple were destroyed by the Christian mob under the orders of their bishop, and the professors and governors were killed, Hypatia, head of the philosophy school in Alexandria, was dragged out of her chariot and then skinned alive by the Christian mobs using oyster shells, killed and then burned. Orestes, the governor of Alexandria, according to the contemporary accounts, objected to Cyril (the future saint) expelling the Jews from the city, and was murdered by Christian monks for his opposition. Orders were then given to exile the Jews of Alexandria after the slaughter of few thousands Alexandrians. then they moved onto every other Egyptian city doing the same thing, killing every Egyptian priest or priestess, burning of libraries and the destruction and burning of temples and schools, no one can stop them nor escape from this new evil, They destroyed the Gnostic and Hermetic Schools through out the country. With these dark bloody events thus begun the dark ages of Europe.


Let's have a look at the life of Hypatia?


There was a woman at Alexandria named Hypatia, daughter of the philosopher Theon, who made such attainments in literature and science, as to far surpass all the philosophers of her own time. Having succeeded to the school of Plato and Plotinus, she explained the principles of philosophy to her auditors, many of whom came from a distance to receive her instructions. On account of the self-possession and ease of manner, which she had acquired in consequence of the cultivation of her mind, she not unfrequently appeared in public in presence of the magistrates. Neither did she feel abashed in going to an assembly of men. For all men on account of her extraordinary dignity and virtue admired her the more.[13] ”
—Socrates Scholasticus, Ecclesiastical History


...and christians skinned her alive. What a great loss to the world. A fine and rare woman. How many other fine rare women did christian mobs murder in the last two thousand years? We will probably never know. Because their exists a despicable depraved type of christian that would pervert history where possible and change it to suit their own agenda. There is even one on this thread.

[aroundthetable]

Grrrr, i'm trying to sit quietly at the back but this post itched me enough to pop my head up. Here's my thoughts on this. I believe the Catholic church is under a sustained smear campaign, as is religion in general. I think religion/spirituality is the last obstacle to be got rid of in order for the reptilian minded to push through their final solution. It has become a popular witch hunt, an easy target for lazy thinkers, a jerk reaction for the sheeple to cry pedophile (sp?) and cut the branch they sit on. If there is one thing that protects us it is our spiritual connection to God, this is our total protection whatever comes our way. I don't intend to get into a debate about 'organised' religion, why should religion be disorganised? So let's get to the point over pedophiles and abuse in general. Spiritual organisations are by their essence very open and welcoming in line with their scriptures. Therefore they are very easy/soft targets for infiltration by pedophiles and the like. Now imagine the horror and shame of the realisation that some so called members of this religion are abusers. This is a dilemna i wouldn't wish upon anybody. So the problem here is how it is dealt with and not about the validity of the mass of it members who are as caring and loving as anybody here. Don't try to throw the baby out with the bath water. I myself am a Hare Krishna and our organisation too has been infiltrated by these mentally ill individuals, and yes we too found it hard to deal with, after all we are so loving and devoted, how could this possibly happen to us!!! Infact the ensuing lawsuits from abused children nearly crippled our whole organisation. Now we have systems in place to prevent the horrors of abusers, unfortunately there will always be this kind of personality that seeks easy access amongst loving and trusting devotees. But before you light your witch burning torch and cry foul in the streets, be carewful what you wish for, love of God, organised or not, is our best and only protection of what we are all about. Please read the following article from a senior member of the Hare Krishna movement.

The writer suggests that the scandals in the Irish church could be partially attributed to the fact that Catholic priests were dealt with as ‘victims of their impulses’ and therefore deserving compassionate treatment. For this reason none of them were handed over to civil authorities.

Compassion is an extremely important quality, especially for those involved in cultivating a more spiritual life. And it’s true that, in general, we all tend to judge each other harshly, and with prejudice, so the general instruction for all aspiring spiritualists of any religious tradition might be: ‘Be more compassionate – and don’t judge others prematurely.’

But the ancient Greeks said that even virtues, when overly applied (and in the wrong circumstances) can become vices, and do a lot of harm. Compassion is one of the virtues, and its a great virtue; indeed, the great Pandava, Maharaja Yudhisthira, said that applied compassion – mercy – is the king of all the virtues. However, there is a time for compassionate action to become transformed to measures of discipline, so that a person may ultimately improve themselves, and that others may be protected. Not everyone in a group or society can be the recipient of compassion at all times and in all circumstances. Any society – even one based primarily on compassionate dealings – can only properly function when there is justice and discipline. If there is no discipline then continued compassion itself will serve to unbalance that society.

Srila Prabhupada tells the true story of a young man who was never disciplined throughout his childhood and who grew up a quite wayward fellow. He fell into bad company, was arrested by the police for a serious crime, and was about to be sentenced to a term in prison. He was asked if he had anything further to say, and motioned that he would like to speak to his aunt who had raised him. When he leaned over to whisper in her ear, instead of speaking to her he bit off a piece of her ear lobe. As she screamed and the blood ran down her cheek, he called out: “That’s for never disciplining me when I was a child! Now look at the result of your kindness!”

A Catholic priest applies God’s compassionate nature in his dealings with others, and particularly in the Rite of Reconciliation, where the confessions of the supplicant must be dealt with by his representation of the divine compassion of God. Its natural that within the very social institution of compassionate priesthood, that the dealing between priests should reflect the nature of the service they extend to others.

But there does come a time for discipline; which is only compassion applied in a different way. Forgiveness must be there, but that is never a substitute in any society for social discipline.

The whole affair becomes further complicated and problematic due to a Christian theological point which is often used to explain bad behaviour in the lives of otherwise good people: ‘evil influences’. Whether the individual actually believes in the Devil – and many priests these days do not – the notion that bad behaviour arises from forces external to the person can easily turn a perpetrator into a ‘victim’ of outside evil influences. Evil then becomes objectified and externalized.

For the Vaishnavas it is theologically impossible, in the ultimate sense, to talk of a Devil. We don’t have one, at least one that makes it his duty to force good people to commit evil deeds. External influences – yes; and demonic universal forces – yes. But ultimately the responsibility for the action lies with the actor. And the karma-phala - the fruit of actions – will accrue to the actor. Vaishnava theology puts any blame fairly and squarely with the individual, with the family, friends and mental disposition a product of former actions.

ISKCON has seen evil committed within its ranks, and unfortunately is no stranger to the pestilence of paedophile priests. And we, also like the Catholic Church, did not respond to the problem fast enough or in the appropriate way. We also tended to treat our priestly perpetrators as the ‘victims’ and preferred that their rectification be made in private, before God, without the involvement of civil authority. We, like the Catholic Church, could not countenance the embarrassment that the very people put on Earth to represent the Godhead were guilty of such heinous actions. We concluded that any localized incident of child abuse was a temporary aberration that could never – would never – possibly occur again. So nobody talked about it – and nobody saw certain patterns emerging. We will be paying for the consequences of those errors for years to come.

But we don’t have a Devil to blame, so how did we have so much compassion for our own priests that went astray? One reason might be that we are not entirely free from the sentimentalization of western society that has been growing for some decades now. It is quite fashionable in our ‘post-modern’ world to describe someone who resorts to criminal behaviour as a ‘victim’ of their upbringing; or of the educational system; or of their poor mental health; or that they were ‘victimized’ by falling into the wrong company at a crucial point in their life. Now all they need is love and understanding – and compassion – to reverse the process. It makes for everyone in western society understanding themselves as being a victim of someone or something else; and that there is always somebody to blame for their inadequacies.

Our theological loophole – the one that is most often misunderstood and regularly misused – is the verse in the Bhagavad-gita (9.30) where Shri Krishna says that: “Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly….” In his purport to this verse, Srila Prabhupada quotes a verse from the Nrsimha Purana (bhagavati ca harav ananya-ceta..) which explains that just as the spots on the moon do not impede the moonlight, similarly occasional accidental falls from the path of a saintly character do not make a devotee abominable.

But I have also personally sat before Srila Prabhupada when he used a comparable illustration in another way. He was perturbed by an illegality committed by his disciples and wanted to convey to us that we should not break the law in the name of Krishna. He said that if you have a white sheet with some black spots on it, everyone will look at the spots; and that if an ordinary man does something wrong then people may not talk, but that if a man who is supposed to be saintly does something wrong – then everyone will notice and talk about it.

So Bhagavad-gita 9.30 does not mean that a devotee of Krishna can do no wrong. In anticipation of our misuse of this verse Srila Prabhupada concludes: “…No one should take advantage of this verse and commit nonsense and think that he is still a devotee…”

ISKCON is a Society, but it is not separate from society in general. We have our internal rules but we do not have a process of law which runs separate from civil law. We don’t have our Vaishnava equivalent of the Islamic sharia. We are a branch of society, not something apart. If a devotee breaks the law then he must accept the consequences, the same as any member of society. God will forgive him, of course, but along with that state of grace may come social disgrace – and that’s good for the soul too.

http://deshika.wordpress.com/

[Arrowwind]

Posted by RedeZra (here)
If you only focus on the past errors of the Catholic Church then you might miss the atrocities being commited by the Western governments today !

She is probably focusing on errors of the Catholic Church because this is what this thread is about. I doubt she is missing much about the atrocities commited by Eastern governments today either.

[Arrowwind]

Posted by aroundthetable (here)
Grrrr, i'm trying to sit quietly at the back but this post itched me enough to pop my head up. Here's my thoughts on this. I believe the Catholic church is under a sustained smear campaign, as is religion in general. I think religion/spirituality is the last obstacle to be got rid of in order for the reptilian minded to push through their final solution. It has become a popular witch hunt, an easy target for lazy thinkers, a jerk reaction for the sheeple to cry pedophile (sp?) and cut the branch they sit on. ]

Makes me think you were not raised catholic nor suffered from some of their tyranny.
I was and I did.
Subjected to a methodical, planned and executed brainwashing to control me
my reproduction, my money and the children that I might create....to steal my potential for evolution and to find my truth. So cut me off from my own spiritual powers through rote reptition of meaninless garbage they call prayers. To cut me off from my own source. It is a grevious assault.


To me the devil is merely life lived backwards, just look at the word. its says it all.... not living life according to her sacred and natual laws.
Living life backwards... not doing what brings you to light and love.

The church as been involved in too much oppression, in too many lies. They have really damaged people. So why should the people not rise up and call them on their wickedness? and repeatedly over and over with each revelation, with each insight as they gain insight in to what has happened to them and now that we can, now that we don't have to fear for our lives and livelihood as we once did? or the fires of hell for we now know that is not real as the church taught.

I will slam then at every opportunity untill they are on their knees for what they have done to me, to my family, to my ancestors. I have made it known to my children their evil ways, their life lived backwards methods so they will never be inticed by the sheer bull sh..!
There is no forgiveness and there is also no hate. There is just sheer intent to see them done. There is only the intent to break their structure so they can no longer do what they have always done. When they are left powerless then, I will not forgive... for much of what they done should not be forgiven. It should be stood against and not allowed to have power.... and I will never forget so that when I am faced with such energies again I will know them. I will not forgive what should not have been done and was done with full knowledge. I will remain aware and awake so that I and those I love will not be enslaved again.

[Arrowwind]

Posted by RedeZra (here)
What then has karma in store for the aggressive American Empire ?

Probably about the same as for all aggressive empires, both east and west. I don't know why you keep trying to turn this thread off topic.

If you want to talk about how screwed up the American Empire is start another thread. Im sure you will find lots of support for it.

[silentghost80]

Posted by aroundthetable (here)
Grrrr, i'm trying to sit quietly at the back but this post itched me enough to pop my head up. Here's my thoughts on this. I believe the Catholic church is under a sustained smear campaign, as is religion in general. I think religion/spirituality is the last obstacle to be got rid of in order for the reptilian minded to push through their final solution. It has become a popular witch hunt, an easy target for lazy thinkers, a jerk reaction for the sheeple to cry pedophile (sp?) and cut the branch they sit on

religion should be abolished it is a horrid construct used to control people.
spirituality is different and offers freedom of choice and belief you walk your own path not the one people tell you that you should .
the catholic church has responsibly for mass genocide.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Rx8PdvOELvY

50 million killed over 605 years
btw i am not a christian,i walk the spiritual path and will defend it to the death and in life again

[Icecold]

Aroundthetable wrote:

I myself am a Hare Krishna and our organisation too has been infiltrated by these mentally ill individuals, and yes we too found it hard to deal with, after all we are so loving and devoted, how could this possibly happen to us!!! Infact the ensuing lawsuits from abused children nearly crippled our whole organisation. Now we have systems in place to prevent the horrors of abusers, unfortunately there will always be this kind of personality that seeks easy access amongst loving and trusting devotees. But before you light your witch burning torch and cry foul in the streets, be carewful what you wish for, love of God, organised or not, is our best and only protection of what we are all about. Please read the following article from a senior member of the Hare Krishna movement.

Would you like me to name them? I was a member of the Sydney Temple when the **** hit the fan. His personal servant was a very good friend of mine. But let's not go there eh?

The entire succession of gurus within the movement is now corrupted as you well know.

However, there is a time for compassionate action to become transformed to measures of discipline, so that a person may ultimately improve themselves,

Yes compassion and mercy. Yes there is compassion and mercy for individuals, for souls. An organisation does not qualify for the focus of the virtue of compassion and mercy. You are misinterpreting the intent.

[aroundthetable]

Most victims of pedophiles are from within familiies, perhaps we should destroy families too, no even better, lets destroy everything that isnt perfect!

[Icecold]

Posted by aroundthetable (here)
Most victims of pedophiles are from within familiies, perhaps we should destroy families too, no even better, lets destroy everything that isnt perfect!

You an I both know that your statement makes no sense whatsoever.

You didn't read my last post. I said the organisation responsible is the problem and deserves no mercy as a constructed institutional appendage of the Roman Empire.


What did Krsna say to Arjuna regarding Arjuna's reticence in attacking his enemies?