Modern Vehicles and the EMP.

[TWINNICK]

Posted by panopticon (here)
G'day Nick,

Sorry. You are completely correct.
I have the box the AirX came in and the inverter wrapped in a tarp, in the wire, on a wooden shelf, in a sea container. (Sounds like a nursery rhyme )
Next to it is the wiring.
I can access the pole the panels are on easily enough just not really sure that it is a priority here (high wind zone) as I would then need to muck about with rectifiers etc...
Thanks for the excellent advice though. I hadn't thought of using pallets as insulators before. I've got a specifically built rack (hence the curiosity as to what an EMP would do to batteries).
BTW do you think an isolation switch is enough to isolate a secondary battery bank (given all above hold true of course) in this instance?

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

G'day, No an isolation switch may have its contacts jumped, the EMP could be huge, imagine a bolt of lightning at say 2 million volts hitting the switch contacts.

Prolly safer to have every wire and contact at least far enough away from each other so a spark can not breach the gap, say 100mm or more.

Also would not hurt to cover terminals and ends of wires with plastic insulators like a cap off of spray can or something similar.

It can't hurt to go a little overboard, it might make all the difference and if nothing to drastic happens then you have not spent a great deal of time or money insuring the equipment.

..Nick..

[Icecold]

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=t23iXhEiQUc

I would suggest building a garage sized Faraday cage. A vehicle inside a sealed Faraday cage should survive with its electronics intact.

Also Horses won't be effected.

[Icecold]

Wow what a thread killer.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

The EMP can cause "punch through" of a semiconductor junction between the type "P" and type "N" material. All semiconductor devices have maximum voltage ratings. The pulse has an extremely fast rise time of voltage and is of a very short duration. After a semiconductor has failed due to "punch through" the damaged junction may result in high current and thermal damage.

Diodes in the alternator could be damaged. A DC generator should survive.

I am guessing here but I expect that lightning protection may provide *some* protection if you are far enough away from an EMP event.

An EMP event high above the mid-west could take out all of the USA and parts of Mexico and Canada, I've read.

I've heard (do not necessarily believe) that an EMP event would destroy the many transformers mounted on power poles. If that happens, it would take many years to rebuild and distribute new transformers and have electricity restored.

Some satellites have been damaged by CME without damaging semiconductors on Earth's surface.

[sjkted]

I actually have a spare alternator for my early 80s diesel. I was going to put it for sale on eBay, but this thread has convinced me otherwise. What do you guys think is the best way to protect it? I was thinking of wrapping it in foil or putting it in the fridge in my bug out motorhome (which is usually turned off).

--sjkted

[TWINNICK]

Posted by sjkted (here)
I actually have a spare alternator for my early 80s diesel. I was going to put it for sale on eBay, but this thread has convinced me otherwise. What do you guys think is the best way to protect it? I was thinking of wrapping it in foil or putting it in the fridge in my bug out motorhome (which is usually turned off).

--sjkted

G'day,

wrap it up well in plastic or cloth and put it in a metal tool box or esky or your fridge, but make sure it is insulated and doesn't touch anything.

I believe if you wrap some insulating material around things you wish to protect and then wrap that in strong cooking alfoil it will work as well, which is what I plan to do with my expensive torch collection and batteries. Maybe a few wraps or layers worth can't hurt and it doesn't cost much for the heavy duty alfoil.

I also have an old micro wave oven with the cord cut off ready to use, apparently they work well.

..Nick..

[panopticon]

Posted by TWINNICK (here)
I also have an old micro wave oven with the cord cut off ready to use, apparently they work well.

Posted by rmauersr (here)
Diodes in the alternator could be damaged. A DC generator should survive.
I've heard (do not necessarily believe) that an EMP event would destroy the many transformers mounted on power poles. If that happens, it would take many years to rebuild and distribute new transformers and have electricity restored.

G'day,

I want to thank you both.
I have prepared for a high level EMP and never thought of a microwave oven as an insulator. I've a couple lying around so that's excellent.
Also I thought my trucks and utes generators (yeah they're old '40's Blitz and '68 Bedford) would have the same problems as an alternator.
What about the coil?
Would old ovens and fridges offer similar protection to a microwave? I realise that microwaves are designed for stopping radiation just curious about the oven/fridge Faraday idea before I go to the tip.

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[TWINNICK]

Posted by panopticon (here)

Posted by TWINNICK (here)
I also have an old micro wave oven with the cord cut off ready to use, apparently they work well.

Posted by rmauersr (here)
Diodes in the alternator could be damaged. A DC generator should survive.
I've heard (do not necessarily believe) that an EMP event would destroy the many transformers mounted on power poles. If that happens, it would take many years to rebuild and distribute new transformers and have electricity restored.

G'day,

I want to thank you both.
I have prepared for a high level EMP and never thought of a microwave oven as an insulator. I've a couple lying around so that's excellent.
Also I thought my trucks and utes generators (yeah they're old '40's Blitz and '68 Bedford) would have the same problems as an alternator.
What about the coil?
Would old ovens and fridges offer similar protection to a microwave? I realise that microwaves are designed for stopping radiation just curious about the oven/fridge Faraday idea before I go to the tip.

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

G'day,

A faraday cage is basically a metal box, so an old oven would be pretty good I would say. I remember reading that aluminium boxes are very good faraday cages.

I see a lot of tradies with those aluminium tool boxes on the back of there utes and some are a good size to hold a lot of spare parts like alternators, starter motors, coils, regulators and such. I would say the old generators out of the old trucks would be excellent, plus they usually have external regulators which are adjustable for voltage, I had an old V.W. kombi for 13 years which had one.

Micro wave ovens apparently are a perfect faraday cage because of the fact they are shielded to stop the EMF coming out into your living space, although you have to cut the cord off very close to the body or remove it altogether. No wires as they act as an ariel or antenae (spelling).

If we get some kind of warning before the EMP I am worried I will have to find a suitable shed or carport for my truck other wise I'll be walking, love my truck but the damn things chockers with electronic gizmo's.

..Nick..

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Here is a simple and practical test of your Faraday cage.

Put a cell phone inside the microwave, pressure cooker, refrigerator, aluminum foil, mylar bag, or whatever you plan to use. Then call your cell phone and listen for the ring.

If it does not ring, you are probably protected from damage by spikes and other high voltage RF energy.

Note: The shielding on microwave ovens is frequency selective. The size of holes on the glass front will make a difference.

[Setras]

Cool my old motorcar from the eighties has a removable Ignition system and it will fit in the microwave... just need a warning before it strikes..

[Ivanhoe]

Hi everyone,
I've beem thinking about steam power a lot.
No electronics, just valves, and can run on practicaly anything.
I started looking into it a little when I began thinking of ways to farm without a conventional tractor (I know NOTHING about horses and how to take care of them) and began thinking about the early farmers of the 20th century and their tools.
I came across a video on you tube about some gents from England who have built a newer version of a steam tractor and tested it in Belguim (I believe).
The only problem I've ran into is that the U.S. government doesn't allow the manufacturing of new steam vehicles, at least that's what I've been lead to believe.
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Ivanhoe
P.S. Obviously a steam engine, plant can be used for a lot of personal and manufacturing applications as well.

[Madmustang]

Posted by Ivanhoe (here)
Hi everyone,
I've beem thinking about steam power a lot.
No electronics, just valves, and can run on practicaly anything.
I started looking into it a little when I began thinking of ways to farm without a conventional tractor (I know NOTHING about horses and how to take care of them) and began thinking about the early farmers of the 20th century and their tools.
I came across a video on you tube about some gents from England who have built a newer version of a steam tractor and tested it in Belguim (I believe).
The only problem I've ran into is that the U.S. government doesn't allow the manufacturing of new steam vehicles, at least that's what I've been lead to believe.
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Ivanhoe
P.S. Obviously a steam engine, plant can be used for a lot of personal and manufacturing applications as well.

Hi there, can you post the link so we can have a looky see please?

[sjkted]

I want to see too.

--sjkted

[Ivanhoe]

Ok.
It took me awhile to locate the site again but here it is: www.savage-engineers-ltd.com .
I had been talking with my brother about gasoline engines and how they wouldn't function (unless you had the spare parts and such to repair them after a cme and/or emp episode), and it made me reconsider steam power.
Applicable not only in farming but also transportation and manufacturing and generating electricity (after rewinding armatures of course).
I think it may be a great alternative, especially considering the scarcity of petroleum based fuels and lack of ready replacements for electonic systems and components. After all, most modern fuels are developed in refineries which wouldn't be functioning after a major calmity like a massive cme/emp.
Ivanhoe
Ivanhoe

[Ivanhoe]

Sorry, I thought it was a you tube video but it was this web site instead. Sorry for my confusion, wasn't intentional, ...brain fade caused by a bunch of reasons, lol.
Ivanhoe

Hope this is usefull.

[TWINNICK]

G'day,

My personal POV is that you need a lot of fuel to burn in a steam engine, what are you going to burn ? we have to stop cutting down tree's on this planet !

If you have a seriously fast growing weed that has no other purpose and enough density to not burn too quickly.... maybe.


If you can harness the suns power to drive your steam engine that would be great.....free power ( reflector dishes, solar hot water panels ? ) where is the water coming from ?.

I think electric motors are the way to go ( shielded) and energy from the sun, maybe we can find all the Tesla technology the letter agencies hid from us and put it into use.

Magnetic motors, perpetually driven generators, pure sine wave inverters, wind energy, wave energy, universal energy, there are smart people out there who know all about this type of energy and we need to put it to use.

Nicola Tesla--- Hmmmm what a great man, ahead of his time, wouldn't it be great if everybody had a small box in there house that gave them all the power they needed- for free !.

I don't like the idea of everybody looking for something to burn in there steam boilers, we don't have enough greenery left on the planet now.

What about the pollution,where's all the smoke and particles going to go. How do you police it to make sure nobody burns toxic fuel and pollutes the air.

..Nick..

[Bo Atkinson]

With all due respect. I differ in opinion here. Long wires electrically- attached to electronic devices could act as pick-up devices (antennae). One can pull plugs if electrical 'storms' appear to happen increasingly, here or there. One can begin greater precautions. Power line transformers have extremely long wires attached, which is their primary susceptibility. These wires are "closed circuits" and tuned by long length-- Are prone both to electrical and to magnetic fields. Tuned to pick up long waves or low frequency pulses. Higher frequency pulses like microwaves, if powered high enough, might burn small devices, but if that high a level, might also scorch or heat anything conductive like water, plants and animals-- I doubt there is any replicable example of space-sourced scorching like this. Besides, perhaps a neutron bomb, rated that strong, for target zones.

Providing that ignition coils are "open", then long wave pulses like lightning should not bother them. If a vehicle had the old fashioned electrical points, in the closed position, this might be an exception. (Might be a good idea to check tis after parking for storage). If a vehicular, semi-conductor control circuit was able to close the ignition circuit while being zapped, that might burn it, but is hard to know. Delicate semiconductors do indeed burn easily, which is the chief concern. Heavy semiconductors as in inverters or solar panels can take a big jolt. If a long wire isn't attached (to serve as a pick-up device for the jolt)--Or where a ground or earth wire is not attached during these events... Inverters with semi-conductor bridge circuits connected to transformer windings, could be argued as susceptible closed circuits-- Except, this circuit is way to physically small to pick up low frequency magnetically induced pulses, such as normal lightning events. It might take an almost - annihilating jolt to scorch it, enough to scorch all life generally. I once had an ordinary welder grounding wire attached to a large metal structure, during a lightning storm. I could actually hear the thunder cloud coming as 'audible ticks' inside the welder box, (it was even shut off from AC in this instance). A flash of light also occurred around the welder, all this without damage.... The current discharged was within the specified working range of my welder. I felt no electricity, standing close by.

The rubber tires offer good insulation. If soaked by rain, then all outdoor surfaces are wet also and provide huge conductive paths wide spread, (to help discharge safely). All metal tractors or equipment might fair worse. As to "going primitive" the chief thing here might be to live away from dense population centers. Develop good relationships with local people and neighbors, well in advance. Begin becoming self-sufficient-ish, just one small step each day.

wav

----
Edit-PS: Tesla offerred a wonderful concept for "lightning protectors", in one of his patents. I highly recommend study of his patent concept, in light of these concerns. It is inspiring and in direct contrast to Franklin's lightning arrestor.

I'd agree to take care with fuel burning plans and upstarts. Sustainability with wood burning is a highly self-disciplined art. Efficient steam generators would prove difficult to build from scratch. Co-generation is almost critical here, even making a builder's cement as well (all at the same time, same process)... It gets very complicated for single individuals. I do have a good design in case someone has a good waste stream, like rice hulls, (or silica bearing fuel content).

[TWINNICK]

Posted by wavydome (here)
With all due respect. I differ in opinion here. Long wires electrically- attached to electronic devices could act as pick-up devices (antennae). One can pull plugs if electrical 'storms' appear to happen increasingly, here or there. One can begin greater precautions. Power line transformers have extremely long wires attached, which is their primary susceptibility. These wires are "closed circuits" and tuned by long length-- Are prone both to electrical and to magnetic fields. Tuned to pick up long waves or low frequency pulses. Higher frequency pulses like microwaves, if powered high enough, might burn small devices, but if that high a level, might also scorch or heat anything conductive like water, plants and animals-- I doubt there is any replicable example of space-sourced scorching like this. Besides, perhaps a neutron bomb, rated that strong, for target zones.

Providing that ignition coils are "open", then long wave pulses like lightning should not bother them. If a vehicle had the old fashioned electrical points, in the closed position, this might be an exception. (Might be a good idea to check tis after parking for storage). If a vehicular, semi-conductor control circuit was able to close the ignition circuit while being zapped, that might burn it, but is hard to know. Delicate semiconductors do indeed burn easily, which is the chief concern. Heavy semiconductors as in inverters or solar panels can take a big jolt. If a long wire isn't attached (to serve as a pick-up device for the jolt)--Or where a ground or earth wire is not attached during these events... Inverters with semi-conductor bridge circuits connected to transformer windings, could be argued as susceptible closed circuits-- Except, this circuit is way to physically small to pick up low frequency magnetically induced pulses, such as normal lightning events. It might take an almost - annihilating jolt to scorch it, enough to scorch all life generally. I once had an ordinary welder grounding wire attached to a large metal structure, during a lightning storm. I could actually hear the thunder cloud coming as 'audible ticks' inside the welder box, (it was even shut off from AC in this instance). A flash of light also occurred around the welder, all this without damage.... The current discharged was within the specified working range of my welder. I felt no electricity, standing close by.

The rubber tires offer good insulation. If soaked by rain, then all outdoor surfaces are wet also and provide huge conductive paths wide spread, (to help discharge safely). All metal tractors or equipment might fair worse. As to "going primitive" the chief thing here might be to live away from dense population centers. Develop good relationships with local people and neighbors, well in advance. Begin becoming self-sufficient-ish, just one small step each day.

wav

----
Edit-PS: Tesla offerred a wonderful concept for "lightning protectors", in one of his patents. I highly recommend study of his patent concept, in light of these concerns. It is inspiring and in direct contrast to Franklin's lightning arrestor.

I'd agree to take care with fuel burning plans and upstarts. Sustainability with wood burning is a highly self-disciplined art. Efficient steam generators would prove difficult to build from scratch. Co-generation is almost critical here, even making a builder's cement as well (all at the same time, same process)... It gets very complicated for single individuals. I do have a good design in case someone has a good waste stream, like rice hulls, (or silica bearing fuel content).

G'day,

Ummm are you disagreeing with me or someone else ? I'm not quite sure, if you read my previous posts you'll find I've already gone into the problems one can have with wires connected to electrical equipment.

Not to mention all the stuff about faraday cages and conductivity of solar panels, plus the vehicles that are going to have problems because of the amount of electronics and sensors they are filled with theses days and aerials attracting EMF from a CME.

I think most would know about the older vehicles with points and coils, it has been spoken of about the spare parts being shielded by faraday cages and the pulse of EMP or CME induced current running through water pipes and anything metal like buildings and underground cables.

I don't think it matters how small a circuit is it has the potential to attract EMF whether from a CME or pulse weapon device.

I maybe wrong but I understood the steam engine idea was about after the sun had spat a CME large enough to reek havock and the damage was done and we could pick up our lives after it was all over, we need to have power and could investigate other forms of sustainable energy.

Tesla's equipment and research that was stolen by the alfabet soup agencies ( and is being used by them for there own projects that doesn't include the rest of the people) would be a great place to start, he had some amazing technology and wanted to use it for the benefit of all man kind not just a few which is why I think they did what they did to him, he was a brilliant mind.

..Nick..

[Ivanhoe]

Nick,
My thoughts on steam pertained to starting back up in the sense that it would be fairly available, especialy for manufacturing capabilities and farming. The designs for more effecient vehicles and power generation are out there but I think that for SHORT term (2-5 years) while restarting industry and food production steam might be viable.
Wood is only one of the fuels available, and there would still be fossil fuels available also(even animal dung), but I agree that using solar to heat the water would be the way to go.
I also understand your concern about availabilty of H2O, but I live in close proxemity to the Red River in northern Louisiana, USA, so using waterwheels for energy production and milling and such is a very viable option. 19th century industry to jump start 21st industry so to speak.
The point I'm trying to make is that it might be a readily available stop-gap technology until solar and green tech can be reintegrated into our societies.
Surviving for the first 1-3 years is the short term goal while redeveloping technologies to rebuild.
Hope that makes sense.
And I'd LOVE to get more info about Tesla out to the world at large. An amazing man!
Ivanhoe

[TWINNICK]

Posted by Ivanhoe (here)
Nick,
My thoughts on steam pertained to starting back up in the sense that it would be fairly available, especialy for manufacturing capabilities and farming. The designs for more effecient vehicles and power generation are out there but I think that for SHORT term (2-5 years) while restarting industry and food production steam might be viable.
Wood is only one of the fuels available, and there would still be fossil fuels available also(even animal dung), but I agree that using solar to heat the water would be the way to go.
I also understand your concern about availabilty of H2O, but I live in close proxemity to the Red River in northern Louisiana, USA, so using waterwheels for energy production and milling and such is a very viable option. 19th century industry to jump start 21st industry so to speak.
The point I'm trying to make is that it might be a readily available stop-gap technology until solar and green tech can be reintegrated into our societies.
Surviving for the first 1-3 years is the short term goal while redeveloping technologies to rebuild.
Hope that makes sense.
And I'd LOVE to get more info about Tesla out to the world at large. An amazing man!
Ivanhoe

G'day,

Yes I understand were you are coming from and agree it could be put to use for the purpose you have said, something in the short to medium term to kick things off again.

Necessity is the mother of invention and depending on whats left after the earth changes (and whom) we will have to make do with what we have available.

..Nick..