What Is or Isn't Effective Protesting

[rgray222]

The recent protests and riots surrounding the George Floyd murder started me thinking about what is the most effective way to protest. Most protests start with anger over something that people want or need to change. Should that anger be allowed to spill out in the street into riots? Obviously, riots may force quick change but it may not necessarily be the best change.

In recent discussions with people, many are saying that looting, arson, and even murder during these protests are justified. They feel that these extreme measures are necessary to force change. Of course, they would never want this view to be known in public but behind closed doors, they will readily admit to having these thoughts.

I actually had a friend say to me this morning that "the good thing about this pandemic and about the riots is that Trump will never win the election with all this going on."I was astounded that someone could think in those terms. Do protests and riots have unintended consequences? Maybe there are not unintended at all?

My view on the riots is that anger is justified but riots never are. I am certainly open to other points of view.

Trumps view on the protests and riots is certainly important but I don't want this to be a discussion about Trump and the upcoming election.

Feel free to put in a video or photo of the protests or the riots that you feel is especially effective or ineffective. Just mention if the video is violent.

This is protesting

'That's not going to bring my brother back': George Floyd's brother calls for end to violence
Source: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...K3waa3O3pLQfy8

This is not protesting

Upstate NY woman threw Molotov cocktail at police vehicle with 4 cops inside during protests, feds say
Source: https://www.syracuse.com/state/2020/...UtVmVgThIjbki4

[ZenBaller]

Evolving from the one to the other is a necessary process through conflict, and pain. However it's good to keep in mind what real heart based rebellion is.

[ZenBaller]

Also, to keep in mind:

Shocking Evidence Suggests Coordinated Effort To Orchestrate An Uprising Inside The United States

These are not just mindless angry mobs. They are being directed with a purpose, and that is very alarming.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/...QxScjmrGGfHhg4

[AutumnW]

redundant.

[Melinda]

Maybe this belongs here.

More on the video (from an article) and my partial video transcript, are below :

'Must watch: Woman gives powerful speech to looters on streets of NYC'

Youtube description: “(Video credit : Dan Ladue) A New York City woman's impassioned plea to a group of looters to stop what they were doing is resonating with people across the country. Desiree Barnes said she approached the group Saturday night in the East Village after they began looting the stores below her apartment. That is when a man on the street noticed her message and started filming.”

Video Posted : 2 June 2020

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=8e1ld1uGpXA

Some people are claiming that some of the recent rioting has been organised, possibly in advance of the reports of George Floyd's killing, and may even be funded by wealthy individuals like George Soros, who are likely far-removed from the street damage and the shattered lives. Whatever the case is, I hope that the rioters listen to what this woman said in the video, and the pain she expressed.

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An article on the video :

'Video shows woman's powerful speech to looters on streets of NYC'

Article date : Wednesday, June 3, 2020 3:49AM

https://abc11.com/desiree-barnes-dan...llage/6228201/

The article claims the lady in the video, Desiree Barnes “was an aide to President Obama,” and that the video-maker wanted to help her get her message out. The video-maker reportedly said :

“"The resonance from people from all walks of life, all across the board, both sides of the aisle, is something I haven't seen from people in a long time," Ladue wrote. "She's a New Yorker, she knew what she was doing." He said he could tell she was frustrated and wanted to be heard, and based off the overwhelming response he received after posting the video, he said he knows she isn't alone.”

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This is a video transcript I made. Most of what she says to the looters / protestors :

“----” denotes where sound cut out, where in some places she may have (more than understandably) used curse words.

[…] denotes a break in the transcript.


“These are ---- people who live in public housing, and you just made a ---- melee. You took down bus routes. There are people who live in this neighbourhood who have to go back up town, to work. And you are here, profiting off of our ---- pain. So if you ---- protest, every single last one of you, you think about what it's like to be a black woman in this ---- neighbourhood, who lives with people in public housing, who now has ---- to walk through. Who bag your groceries, who drop off your food, who defend you, who go uptown to a ---- hospital to serve this community.

So as you're out here be ----- responsible. Have a ----plan. You can protest all you want. But the ---- I just saw take place... I know there are people out here, homeless people, who ---- rely on those banks to charge their ---- phones. And you think it's ok to take down a neighbourhood? You don't see corporations here. There are human beings that live in this ---- neighbourhood. You do this ---- in Harlem, you do this ---- in Brooklyn, and I swear on everything, these people in this neighbourhood deserve better. And I'm not talking about the gentrification. I'm not talking about the ---- students who come here and pay cash to go to NYU. I am talking about the people who go to a methadone clinic down the ---- street. And you ---- think this is a protest?

I gave my blood, sweat and tears for this country, I served this country for ten ---- years. So when you think about this anger, and this ---- rage... 'Cause there's a way to get answers. Every single last one of you better be registered to vote. Every single last one of you.

So do me a favour. For every single person out here protesting, remember, there's three homeless men who rely on that as a charging station” (points to station) “And what? What? Will it even work now? And for the sake of what? So you can go back home to your comforts, sit in your houses and think that you did some ---- work today? There are people out here who work in these bodegas, who are security officers, who are maybe not descendants of slavery but came over here as immigrants to do their jobs. And you've created an unsafe ---- environment. And I am tired of it. I don't care how you decide to organise and protest. But you don't ---- riot. You don't burn ---- in my ---- neighbourhood. I am a resident here. And you will ---- realise this resident doesn't look like any of you. 'Cause she is black. She has a right to be mad.

But when you come in here with your ---- privilege, and you take down resources that my community needs. These houses, these buildings are dilapidated because we don't have patrons here. There are immigrants who ---- built a ---- eyebrow threading studio, and we've got spray paint on their ---- . So you want to ---- do something, make sure you're registered to vote” […] “and you better pass it on to all of your friends. You stay out of our ---- neighbourhoods and you take this ---- to the corporations, you take it to Wall Street, but you don't ---- come on this block. Period. This is a ---- neighbourhood, with immigrants, and you should treat it as such.”


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Meanwhile, if we're talking about what is effective protesting, there's also what is effective in protesting (or defending against) potential rioters / looters. A James Gilliland facebook page (I don't know if it's him doing the posting) posted this claim yesterday (image below). I don't know if it's true :





I've also seen videos of armed white men standing with armed black men, defending a store during recent looting. When defending your property or yourself from violence, having a gun can be a powerful deterrent, before a trigger is even pulled. And as I posted elsewhere (on the Here and Now thread), there are likely many, many cases where men and and women in the U.S. have defended themselves from all kinds of violence or other crimes, simple by being armed. But we don't see those reported as much as the gun crimes. The press and the police authorities likely don't have an accurate record. To those who shrink at any mention of guns, could they really look a person in the eyes, who saved themselves or their loved one from being raped, robbed, abducted or killed, or their property destroyed, simply by being armed, not even pulling a trigger, and tell them they should never have been allowed that gun?

It's enough to make you wonder if some political elements of the anti-gun lobby knew events like this year's were coming, and wanted to disarm people, to make them dependent on authorities for protection. Protection which all too often can't come in time to prevent a crime.

A lot of gun crime is rooted in, or takes advantage of poverty. So if there are, as some claim, elitist and/or political factions funding organised rioting, maybe they could apply some funds to eliminate poverty from the ground up. Systemically and long-term.

Poverty which (given the relevance of recent events) contributes to innocent black men being incarcerated, or given sentences disproportionate to their crimes, where some effectively become slave labour in a private prison industry. Disempowering portions of entire generations. Poverty which sends black women to abortion clinics, reducing black population growth, because the pregnant mothers are scared they will not be able to provide and/or have a life worth living. Poverty which leads young black men to get involved in drug-pushing to other black people, just to create income. Poverty which prevents many black people from being able to fund their own arts and journalism, to tell their own stories.

Where is the protest or march with a plan for implementing clean energy, excellent education, decent job training (rather than replacing people with robots and artificial intelligence for profit) and opportunities for people on welfare? Where are the wealthy patrons for that activism? So that if we do move into a culture of increasing welfare (due to A.I. diminishing the role of a human workforce) they can help grow a culture for those on welfare that isn't demeaning. Where there are new kinds of vocation. A culture that provides new models for community infrastructure for creativity, recycling, and volunteering. A culture that doesn't depend on us being micro-chipped or implanted with nanotech, or on social credit-scoring, or on keeping our political views to ourselves, in order to keep our right to travel, or to work, or use the internet, or receive our government benefits. A culture that proves we don't need to sacrifice ourselves (including literally) to save earth's environment.

How many times have I looked to mainstream media only be shown a child (Greta) or the apparently well-funded activism of Extinction Rebellion, and not seen any of them explore the content of the above paragraph to its fullest extent? None of them, or the press who report them, openly discussing suppressed energy technologies and how to explore them safely. Perhaps they are afraid to bring it up. But if they are afraid to, how do they expect to counter the same government corruption and inefficiency that has led us to where we are? Millions of people protesting that the world needs fixing, then just leaving it to governments to say how.

Our governments can end poverty. They can do it with advanced, clean energy systems of fuel. They can end the slavery to big pharma, GMO or harmful food and farming and the industries' profiteering rackets. Population can stabilise with the higher quality of life, and we can create prosperity for everyone without back-breaking work, or people working 2 or 3 jobs and rarely seeing family. Clean energy can fuel recycling of manufactured materials, and localised farming, to eliminate the drive to plunder and pollute more forest land for resources.

Where are the think tanks for that new kind of community, and the technologies to support it? Where are the press reports of their findings? Are some of the wealthy patrons who back disruptive activism, funding those as well? Or does inciting chaos and throwing scraps from the master's table suit them more?

I won't hold my breath in waiting for elites to orchestrate that kind of fairness, but I would love to be pleasantly surprised on that front. Perhaps some have been trying to do it, relatively anonymously. I get that trying to really break the hold of corrupt and destructive monopolies can be life-risking. Not all billionaires are without ethics. But the ones who think beyond their own greed are possibly a minority, in what is already a tiny minority. If more of us don't process the possibilities for our world, it makes it harder for those who try.

If you choose to believe that thinking about the possibilities without knowing what to do, doesn't even help so why bother (?) Then the oppressors have already won.

Meanwhile, people can make educated choices about which 'patrons' and activism movements are creating chaos, and which are creating momentum that unifies people to create beneficial change.

It's hard. Because if you try to talk to some people about how some activists are not what they seem, or how we can look deeper in imagining a prosperous future, they just shut down. They are too tired to consider alternatives.

I'm sorry if this post was long. But I write to keep sane. Posting an image of a black square in a social media profile, with a blacklivesmatter hashtag to show sympathy for anyone of colour brutalised or oppressed, would not keep me sane.

We could have a just and peaceful heaven on earth. But I don't think we can get there with only hippyish good intention, or battle-ready anarchists. We need new visions to march for, not old ideas to march against. Firm in resolve, but peaceful (not vicious) in intent. That may make the difference in a creating a new reality. Not just more of the same.

I believe in prayer. I keep praying. Grateful for the divine interventions that uphold a better vision for humanity's future. For every race. Prioritising healing, not violent retribution or venting with limited results, for those who've had the least for longest.

I know how lucky I am to have the privilege I do. The time and the energy to write. I also know it can be better for everyone, if more people have a vision that facilitates it.

In peace.

[Deborah (ahamkara)]

I think the most effective protests have goals: specific, measurable, achievable, realistic and time bound (SMART). One problem I see with the protests is that the goal of "Ending Racism" is noble, well intentioned, but hardly specific or measurable. Also, good intentions are often manipulated and hijacked by those with experience wielding power or with a hidden agenda (French and Russian revolutions).

[shaberon]

Yes, fighting against "abstracts" which can never really be won since...it isn't tangible...is a complete wear-down tactic.

Also, the hijacking of discord in many places must be some kind of sport. Most of those revolutions were spoiled by this. The current situation lacks a revolutionary basis to begin with. Like asking the same papa's shack just to be a little nicer. That won't wash the sin off these sleeves. No.

It could be effective, if "End Vietnam" went similarly, that was a demand which actually has an answer. Was it effective overnight, no...so it is really probably quicker to take office. Quit nagging this person that bugs you, and replace them yourself.

But wait, I haven't got another 657 schmoozolas for your campaign this year. Hrmph. They don't want any poor people around here. No sea scallions, no withered out husks plodding to oblivion. The last really successful protest I can think of was Andrew Jackson. Since then, I can think of "successful lobbying", but the closest thing to a protest might be "actual investigation", as with Senator Burr. We see the President just fired an Investigator for investigating. This vaccine craze is just too close to the timing of the major opiate lawsuits. It is being managed by Black Rock into the Federal Reserve, in other words, a risky bond on the entire future. Oops.

I don't really know about protests. Lawsuits, criminal charges, and legal reform would be most effective, compared to any kind of trouble making. In old times it was like stealing a bunch of gunpowder would make you equal in power to any government. There is no modern equivalent. Police have plenty of shotguns, if they were a real death squad, they would just open fire. So we still have a pretty small mess compared to what we have personally agitated in several other places.

Edit:

I wonder if this may be reversible?

In the sense that we can identify from the past the French pattern: a scene where there was perhaps at least an organized revolt, but then, all sorts of additional violence were thrown into the mix. Could the energy of the violence be reversed and re-directed into a meaningful purpose?

We have this churning mix which isn't specifically anything. And I am not alone in recognizing this because others on here see the same thing Rebel Without a Clue, and many of us already are familiar with concrete issues that really need attention, and that even if this mess "does anything", it is still not even going to raise these major issues.

Pepe Escobar or John Whitehead are saying pretty close to the same thing. Sure, person-to-person brutality is an awful thing, but it derives from a bigger opponent.

Can you hijack a violent outbreak by providing a message for it?

Can we steal the energy from the "loosh farm" and use it for our own purposes?

Pepe is readily able to quote others along the same lines:

The late, great political theorist Sheldon Wolin had already nailed it in a book first published in 2008: this is all about Inverted Totalitarianism.

Wolin showed how “the cruder forms of control – from militarized police to wholesale surveillance, as well as police serving as judge, jury and executioner, now a reality for the underclass – will become a reality for all of us should we begin to resist the continued funneling of power and wealth upward.

“We are tolerated as citizens only as long as we participate in the illusion of a participatory democracy. The moment we rebel and refuse to take part in the illusion, the face of inverted totalitarianism will look like the face of past systems of totalitarianism,” he wrote.

Sinclair Lewis (who did not say that, “when fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in the flag and waving the cross”) actually wrote, in It Can’t Happen Here (1935), that American fascists would be those “who disowned the word ‘fascism’ and preached enslavement to capitalism under the style of constitutional and traditional native American liberty.”

He perhaps had some foreknowledge due to the 1933 Business Plot.

Even Henry Ford knew that if people knew, there would be a revolt. When there is a revolt, no one seems to know. Could it be possible to patch this together so it at least tries to work right?

Eh. I wouldn't really know how to do that. Most of these people would probably disagree with it and kick us to the curb.

[shaberon]

Well, Maybe this is effective. Minneapolis is considering disbanding the police. Their city council is thirteen Democrats and one Green. To their credit the Green is the only one I know of who platformed an actual political issue: that this is the only developed country in the world where medical treatment is backed by for-profit insurance.

I suppose that is an "effect" of capitalism, rather than the root, although it would be hard to deny the effect is rather large.

The defunding idea is spreading in the face of current budget debates:

Los Angeles: the police budget is $1.8bln, and the mayor has for weeks been pushing for raises and bonuses for officers and an overall 7% increase that would make the budget more than half of the general fund. But on Wednesday, he said he was now looking to make cuts to the police budget.

New York: The mayor is pushing to leave the NYPD’s nearly $6bln budget intact while slashing education and youth programs and cutting other agencies by as much as 80%.

Philadelphia: The mayor has proposed spending $977mln on police and prisons, which is 20% of the general fund. A $14mln increase for police comes as the city is cutting funding for youth violence prevention, arts and culture, workforce development, and laying off staff at recreation centers and libraries.

A city council is actually talking about making a new kind of police force, while D C. is staffed by badgeless prison riot guards: