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Thread: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Rjisvan and Ayasya




    It appears largely correct that Book Six is prior to most of the rest of the events.

    If there is a "backstory", it must be found elsewhere.

    One of the best leads is IX.108, where, apparently agreeing that "principles" were not "Sages", Talageri accepts these human authors:


    GaurIvIti SAktya, Sakti VAsiSTha, Uru ANgiras,
    RjiSvan BhAradvAja



    This is a weird set, right? Why isn't Rishi Vasistha there with his own direct descendants? Instead, we find a Book Six author, Rjisvan, after someone who might otherwise be meaningless or stray. So many Angirases, without clear lines of transmission. It takes another "jump" to find the disciples of Uru.

    One might guess they would be around the same time as Rjisvan, that is, the time of Book Six.

    "They" come from one person.


    Anga Aurava X.138 is presumably old by mentioning only one "event", Rjisvan, who does seem to be among the first or earliest in Rg Veda.

    But first, there is something we need to avoid, because he is mixed in the "Trasadasyu redactions".

    This may be the only significant "error" in the Rg Veda, which we can believe to be biased because it is about Trasadasyu.

    If anything, the time of Trasadasyu must be equated with Rishi Atri, the youngest or last Gotra Rishi.



    Therefor the following two hymns should not be possible for Books Seven and Six.


    We might tend to agree it would be anachronistic where Vasistha depicts Rishi Kutsa against Susna and Kuyava.

    Sudas and Trasadasyu

    Chumuri, and Dhuni, on behalf of Dabhīti.

    Namuci

    subjugated Turvasa Yadava



    And there is a previous-generation Bharadvaja version of Susna and Kutsa.

    Namuci

    Pipru and Rjisvan

    compelled the many-fraudulent Etaśa and Dasoṇi, Tūtuji, Tugra and Ibha, always to come submissively to (the rājā) Dyotana

    Sarat and Purukutsa

    Usanas

    Dhuni

    you have brought over in safety Turvaśa and Yadu.

    Dhunī and Cumurī; and thereupon Dabhīti



    So, whether intentionally or accidentally, it is not that the contents are invented, but the attribution to the Gotra founders in their own lifetimes does not seem possible. So we want to exclude these particular hymns from this tangible meaning. They do not seem to be in character with the others.


    Book Six is rather simple, it looks like it might be Bharadvaja and some of his Rishi disciples, and then Bharadvaja and his physical offspring. His direct antecedent Brhaspati Angiras is in Book Ten, revealing the origin of Speech rather than the Puranic legacy of mankind. However Book Six is not open and shut because of another character indicated from the "outside", Rjisvan.



    First of all, does the Anukramani ever add to Rjisvan a Bharadvaja, Barhaspatya, or Angiras surname?


    No.


    The entire block, VI.49-52, consists entirely of:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): ṛjiśvāḥ;
    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): viśvedevā


    Allright. Given that amount of room, we expect he might tell us what the majority of entities he considers "Devas" are. So we will pry into and see how those come up.


    Perhaps notably, we soon encounter Dawn and Night:


    “May the two daughters of the radiant (sun) of various form, of whom one glitters with stars, the other (is bright) with the sun, mutually opposed, proceeding diversely, purifying (all things), and entitled to our laudation, be pleased by the praise they hear (from us).”


    and, a step shy of saying "a mantra is a rik", he nevertheless knows the etymology:


    ṛcyamāne


    He quickly gets to a Chariot:


    the presence of Vāyu

    driving your Niyut (steeds)


    and another:


    May that splendid car of the Aśvins, which is harnessed at a thought, clothe my form (with radiance)


    Rain:


    Parjanya and Vāta

    sage Maruts, hearers of the truth


    “May the purifying, amiable, graceful Sarasvatī, the bride of the hero, favour our pious rite; may she, together with the wives of the gods, well pleased, bestow upon him who praises her a habitation free from defects and impenetrable (to wind and rain), and (grant him) felicity.”


    (Pūṣan), protector of all paths

    Tvaṣṭā, the first divider (of forms)

    Rudra, the parent of the world

    Viṣṇu, who with three (steps) made the terrestrial regions for Manu

    Ahirbudhnya (propitiated) by (our) hymns, and Parvata and Savitā

    Bhaga


    Next hymn:


    Radiant Sūrya, render the luminous deities, who have Dakṣa for their progenitor

    dakṣapitṝn

    the grandchildren of Dakṣa were sentiments and passions


    overlooked:


    devī siṣakti pūṣā


    Legendarily:


    (extricate us) from thick darkness, as you did extricate Atri



    classes:


    celestial Ādityas, terrestrial Vasus, offspring of Pṛśni [Maruts], children of the waters [Rudras]


    Rbhus:

    Ribhukṣin, and Vāja, and the divine Vidhātā

    Aja-ekapād


    he also says:


    my sons, of the race of Bharadvāja

    gnā


    a Gayatri:


    veda yas trīṇi vidathāny eṣāṃ devānāṃ janma sanutar ā ca vipraḥ | ṛju marteṣu vṛjinā ca paśyann abhi caṣṭe sūro arya evān ||


    “He who knows the three cognizable (worlds); the sage (who knows) the mysterious birth of the divinities (abiding in them); he who is beholding the good and evil acts of mortals, he, the sun, the lord, makes manifest their intentions.”

    The divinities abiding in them: Of the Vasus on earth, the Rudras in the firmament, the Ādityas in heaven. Vasus are the 'earthly riches'; the other divinities are 'instruments' in the process of making wealth



    perhaps familiar sounding:


    dyauṣ pitaḥ pṛthivi mātar adhrug agne bhrātar vasavo

    viśva ādityā adite sajoṣā


    It is Namo Nama that is Isa:


    reverence is sovereign over them



    far-seeing:


    urucakṣaso

    five orders of beings



    Here, we need to ask ourselves. Is the tone of this more that Rjisvan is accepting, empowering, and acting on behalf of his "precursor"?


    “May the presenter of the oblation, Bharadvāja, quickly obtain, gods, a celestial abode, as he solicits your good-will; the institutor of the ceremony, together with pious associates, desirous of riches, glorifies the assembly of the gods.”


    Usually, such a thing is spoken by the Purohit or Ardhavaryu, or whoever is established, as taking an offering, or allegiance, from the named benefactor.

    He calls his *sons* Bharadvajas, not himself. These hymns have no rise to power, or story of, Rjisvan. They are all him acting as an experienced Rishi.


    gravana:


    “These our grinding stones are anxious, Soma, for your friendship; destroy the voracious Paṇi, for verily he is a wolf.”

    “We have travelled along the road prosperously traversed and free from evil, and by which (a man) avoids adversaries and acquires wealth.”



    From the last hymn:


    an imprecation upon Atiyāja

    Yuyam payas, a mixture of milk and curds, termed āmikṣā



    "Singing" certainly applies here:


    stotram indro marudgaṇas tvaṣṭṛmān mitro aryamā | imā havyā juṣanta naḥ ||



    whether you be in the firmament or in the heaven

    antarikṣe ya upa dyavi ṣṭha

    you who (receive oblations) by the tongue of Agni, or are to be (otherwise) worshipped

    grandson, of the waters

    apāṃ napāc

    an interesting duality:


    agnīparjanyāv


    The last phrase summarizes how I, personally, understand Agni Homa, but otherwise, Rjisvan has not given any historical clues about himself. There is no dynasty built on the Aswins or otherwise.



    So we turn to Rjisvan in the recollections of others.

    Most likely the first, and simplest and most direct, is by Anga Aurava X.138.


    He mentions mythical Kutsa, and seems to only involve one other person, Ayasya.


    This is easy. If we follow this Rishi's hymns also in Book Ten, he gives the clear statement that Pitr discovered the seven-headed ceremony, and that Ayasya engendered the fourth generation (Turiya).

    Anga Aurava is able to represent Uru as his "father". His contemporary, Ayasya, has just claimed to be the "grandson" of Yama, or Atharvan, or the first Manu. The title used is, of course, closest to Yama. Or maybe he is the grandson of the "first generation", of whom Yama or Manu is the sire.



    And here, Ayasya is giving the legend of original Brhaspati, and, may not even be aware of a Rishi by that name. His section is entirely reminiscent of the allegory of Plato's Cave, it is basically the same thing, set in a certain mold. The tone of this is hardly suggestive that it has human participants:



    Bṛhaspati wrested at once from Vala the three, the dawn, the sun, the cow


    the translator overlooked:


    mūrdhānam abhinad arbudasya |


    He invokes Naksatras:


    “The protecting (deities) have decorated the heaven with constellations as (men decorate) a brown horse with golden trappings; they established darkness in the night and light in the day; Bṛhaspati fractured the rock and recovered the cows.”

    Protecting deities: pitṛs, or progenitors, the Aṅgirasas, who appear to have been among the ancient astronomers, the inventors of the lunar asterisms (nakṣatras)


    Not human:


    Bṛhaspati, who lives in mid-heaven, who recites in order many(sacred stanzas)



    Although he also has a few brief Soma hymns, Ayasya appears to only be remembered as an individual in one place, X.108:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): saramā devaśunī;
    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): praṇayaḥ


    eha gamann ṛṣayaḥ somaśitā ayāsyo aṅgiraso navagvāḥ | ta etam ūrvaṃ vi bhajanta gonām athaitad vacaḥ paṇayo vamann it ||

    (Saramā). Excited by the Soma, the Ṛṣis, the Aṅgirasas of the nine months' rite, headed by Ayasya, will come here; they will partition this herd of cattle, then the Paṇis will retract their words.


    This is the most nonsensical hymn, and yet among the most primeval, or the beginning of a magical Rg Veda through the symbolic forays of Brhaspati. In other words, an intent to form a "symbolic language", or a "code", or a "cant". Moreover, Ayasya has just taken the same role as Dadhyan.


    Anga Aurava has combined this Ayasya and Rjisvan who contests Pipru. This adversarial "event" is carried forward in the first verse after Kasyapa and the Varsagiras, Kutsa I.101.1.


    It is exalted by Gauriviti V.29:


    ...you have humbled Pipru for the son of Vidathin; Ṛjiśvan preparing dressed viands, has, through your friendship brought you (to his presence), and you have drunk of his libation.


    Same Gauriviti with Uru and Rjisvan in the Soma hymn.


    Pipru is just dropped in a list by Praskanva VIII.49.


    Is in the "redacted" VI.20, and quixotically also in Pipru and Susna VI.18.



    I do not think Book Four requires "editing", since most of the actors are probably in existence by the time of Vamadeva IV.16:


    Ṛjiṣvan, the son of Vidathin


    which probably means "of Bharadvaja", but there is also Vamra X.99:


    Ṛjiśvā, the son of Uśija with Indra's praises shattered the cow pen of Pipru with the thunderbolt


    The event remains "known" or "listed" among Kutsa:


    Śuṣṇa, Pipru, Kuyava and Vṛtra, and destroyed the cities of Śambara


    Savya I.51:


    you have destroyed the cities of Pipru, and have well defended Ṛjiśvan in robber-destroying (contest)


    Grtsamada II.14:


    Svaśna, the unabsorbable Śuṣṇa, and mutilated (Vṛtra), who destroyed Pipru, Namuci and Rudhikrā.

    Medhatithi VIII.32:


    Sṛbinda, Anarśani, Pipru, Dāsa and Ahiśuva



    It certainly looks like Medhatithi inherited so much "stuff", it would have been a tempting idea to think of a way to shape it into a type of omni-ethos, because it *does* pick up a lot of "minor" characters who have *no* other traces of their existence. Like whoever he is talking about.

    If we take the additional Rjisvan reference, we go to a part of Book One that seemed like it is probably about the expansion of Kanvas. Does this sound like the case, yes, probably, from Savya Angiras 51-57. This perhaps is additionally interesting if it may be around the beginning of the Age of Aries. He appears to be making a word play on Mesa:


    Indra assumed the form of a ram and came to a sacrifice performed by Medhātithi and drank Soma, so a legend;

    Meṣa = victor over foes. Another legend is that Aṅgiras worshipped to get a son who would resemble Indra; Indra himself became his son whose name was Savya


    His set is all Indra hymns, given in order of decreasing size. And yes, he sounds to be on the far receiving end from Anga Aurava:



    ...you have shown the way to Atri, who vexes his adversaries by a hundred doors (by a number of yantras, means or contrivances); you have granted wealth, with food, to Vimada


    Danumad = descended from Danu, a Dānava, an asura or an epithet of vasu, wealth, fit for liberality (from danu, giving) or one doing injury, an enemy; Vṛtra (Ahi) is hantri, the slayer; so yat sarvān etat samabhavat tasmād ahiriti, inasmuch as he was the same as all that (benefits of sacrifice, fame, knowledge, prosperity), he was called Ahi



    “You have defended Kutsa in fatal fights with Śuśna; you have destroyed Śambara in defence of Atithigva; you have trodden with your foot upon the great Arbuda; from remote times were you born for the destruction of oppressors.”


    Again the enemy trait:


    avratān


    Vamra, while praising him, whether old or adolescent, and spreading through heaven, carried off the accumulated (materials of the sacrifice).

    Vamra, a ṛṣi, when Indra was absent, carried away the accumulated heap of offerings, the marrow or essence of the earth


    Uṣanās


    There is a substantial commentary for Saryata and Cyavana.


    “You have given, Indra, the youthful Vṛcaya to the aged Kakṣīvat, praising you and offering oblations; you, Śatakratu, were Menā, the daughter of Vṛṣaṇaśva; all these your deeds are to be recited at your worship.”

    Praise by the Pajras, is (as stable) as the post



    Worship well that ram who makes heaven known, whom a hundred worshippers at once are assiduous in praising.



    ...that Indra whom the Maruts, the driers up of moisture, who are unobstructed, and of undistorted forms, attended as auxiliaries at the death of Vṛtra.


    ...broke through the defences of Vala as did Trita through the coverings (of the well).


    Tvaṣṭā has augmented your appropriate vigour; he has sharpened your bolt with overpowering might.


    Bṛhat (Sāma)

    vivasvataḥ

    Namuci

    “You have slain Karañja and Parṇaya with your bright gleaming spear, in the cause of Atithigva; unaided, you did demolish the hundred cities of Vaṅgrida, when besieged by Ṛjiṣvan.”

    the twenty kings of men, who had come against Suśravas

    Perhaps, a reference to Āyus, son of Purūravās


    “You, Indra, have preserved Suśravas by your succour, Turvayāṇa by your assistance; you have made Kutsa, Atithigva, and Āyu subject to the mighty though youthful Suśravas.”

    tvám asmai kútsam atithigvám āyúm


    Now what is going on here. Sayana has made a superfluous comment only based on "-ravas". The very next verse has "Ayu" who was subjugated. What a strange guess. If we look at Praskanva's phrase:

    sušrávasaṃ jánam

    men of noble fame

    "Jana" simply being "those who have been born", here is verse nine from the alternate:


    janarā́jño dvír dášābandhúnā sušrávasopajagmúṣaḥ

    thou far-famed, hast overthrown the twice ten Kings of men


    As we see, it's not "twenty" (dvidasa), but, the Ten Kings, twice. Although the translator seems to have taken "susravas" as fame, he then says the Ten Kings and their forces came:


    ...to fight with friendless Susravas...


    and the next verse:


    Thou hast protected Susravas with succour, and Turvayana with thine aid, O Indra.
    Thou madest Kutsa, Atithigva, Ayu, subject unto this King, the young, the mighty.


    It is tempting to say Susravas "is" Turvayana (Divodasa).

    The first translation says "the young" is Susravas, who has subjugated the main three tribes or "everyone", which, elswehere, this feat is attributed to Turvayana, using the same names, which Talageri suggests mean the chiefs of Samyu Bharadvaja's Trksi, Druhyu, and Puru tribes.

    Praskanva's sense may be "men of, subjects of, forces of, tribe of" Susravas.

    A prior citation in the same logic might suggest Atithigva is Rjisvan, is Susravas, is Turvayana. Taken too literally, you would probably say, oh, a "hundred cities" means this must have been a completely different kingdom at another time. The only reason I might pick out "Rjisvan" is because we are pretty sure Divodasa is the son of Srnjaya, and then we would have to force the conclusion that Srnjaya is Dirghatamas. I am less sure that works. The verse from Savya seems to say that Susravas overwhelmed the same people as Turvayana, it may be implying identity.


    His writing style is readily aware of repeating cycles, as he refers to the defeat of one Vrtra and ten thousand vrtras.

    He may be saying there were two episodes of Ten Kings, which were pretty similar.

    If perhaps even "Atithigva" is an epithet that could be tossed around to a better or worse person, and so it may be a cycle, has evaded Sayana, but it is a good suggestion. Names like "Kutsa" are obviously cycling. The repeats and the aliases are difficult, but I, at least, would tend to agree that is what is gong on here.



    Savya mentions a few more things:

    You have protected Narya, Turvaśa, Yadu and Turvīti, of the race of Vayya

    considerably within the epoch of maritime trade:


    as (merchants) covetous of gain crowd the ocean (in vessels) on a voyage



    And towards the end, a dramatic irony:


    “Beautiful Uṣas, now present the oblation in this rite to the formidable, praise-deserving Indra, whose all-sustaining, celebrated, and characteristic radiance has impelled him hither and thither, (in quest) of (sacrificial) food, as (a charioteer drives) his horses (in various directions).”



    From the simple version by Anga Aurava, he just said that Usas was afraid of Indra's power, or merely because of seeing the thunderbolt, she got out of her car and ran.

    First of all that is a little weird because her mind chariot could go at the speed of thought. So this is an inefficient means of escape. Then it is perhaps said that the force was so powerful it wrecked the car. In any case, it is not really a personal combat, as there is some kind of resolve here.


    The other weird part is we can be location-specific because Yaska tells us this is the Vipas--Beas River. The question would be is Rjisvan directly related to this. Well, the place would have had no Sanskrit name before this. So the motive of association is there. If we recall the way we got into this, Kasyapa says in IX.113:


    “Where Vivasvat's son is king, where the inner chamber of the sun (is), where these great waters (are), there make me immortal; flow, Indu, for Indra.”


    Soma flows from:


    Ārjikā; the country of the ṛjikās (also in VIII.7)


    And he tells us of coded Usas:



    “The daughter of Sūrya brought the vast Soma large as a rain-cloud; the gandharva seized upon it and placed the juice in the Soma; flow, Indu, for Indra.”

    Daughter of Sūrya: śraddhā vai sūryasya duhitā


    Sayana says it is *near* Kuruksetra, the hymn says it is in the "mountains"--parvatas.


    It seems to be named for "people" who are perhaps followers of Rjisvan, and perhaps also derived out of this epithet for Indra:


    rjisa


    for which the "doers" or "makers" are verbally compounded this way in VI.23:


    drink the soma mixed with curds

    pibā tu somaṃ goṛjīkam

    The same compound is used by Vasistha in the sense of "product of a cow" (Go) "mixed with" (rjika). The other generic meanings of "rjika" would be "smoke", or, "variegated color" similar to "Prsni". In Books One and Ten it may be found near "dhuma ketu", so the meaning of "smoke" would be appropriate in the Veda.

    It is uniquely compounded by Vamadeva:

    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): dadhrikāḥ

    āviḥ-ṛjīkaḥ


    Āvirṛjīka (आविरृजीक):—[=āvir-ṛjīka] [from āvir > āvis] mfn. having manifest means ([Sāyaṇa]), [Ṛg-veda iv, 38, 4.]


    The particular phrase is:


    āvirṛjīko vidathā


    Sayana probably goes off here, saying "knows that which is to be known". The "manifest" or "direct experience" is in the Avi- prefix of this, so, one way or another, it is probably something like "seeing rjika". Would this make better sense for the same two words for comparison:


    Shown in bright colour, looking on the assemblies


    Yes, the generic meaning of "vidathin" is "assemblies, congregation", avi- is "shown", and then "rjika" may have a "colors" meaning.

    The other translation does not even detect "Hawk". This hymn has two other "rjika" compounds with the "impulsive, swift" connotation, which here is tracked appropriately. What it says for this character:


    And ye gave mighty Dadhikras, the giver of many gifts, who visiteth all people,
    Impetuous hawk, swift and of varied colour, like a brave King whom each true man must honour.

    Whom, as' twere down a precipice, swift rushing, each Puru praises and his heart rejoices,-
    Springing forth like a hero fain for battle, whirling the car and flying like the tempest.

    Who gaineth precious booty in the combats and moveth, winning spoil, among the cattle;
    Shown in bright colour, looking on the assemblies, beyond the churl, to worship of the living.


    The beginning is about Trasadasyu's generosity to the Purus, and the ending certainly suggests that a fair amount of this lore is widely understood:


    Dadhikras hath o' erspread the Fivefold People with vigour, as the Sun lightens the waters.
    May the strong Steed who winneth hundreds, thousands, requite with sweetness these my words and praises.




    "Arjika country" is inextricably twined to one of the most important primordial Rishis. According to Gotama in I.84, it is the location of Dadhyan's Horse Head:


    “Wishing for the horse's head hidden in the mountains, he found it in Śaryaṇāvat.”

    “The (solar rays) found on this occasion the light of Tvaṣṭā verily concealed in the mansion of the moving moon.”


    The location is also known in IX.65 by:


    bhṛgurvāruṇirjamadagnirvā


    The Soma juices which have been expressed afar or near at hand,
    Or there on Saryanavan's bank,

    Those pressed among Arjikas, pressed among the active, in men's homes,
    Or pressed among the Races Five-

    May these celestial drops, expressed, pour forth upon us, as they flow,
    Rain from the heavens and hero strength.


    Jamadagni has suggested two kind of places, at home/among the many people, and, mountainous country up the Beas River. Near and far. Although the Puranas are filled with the exploits of his son Rama especially around the Beas, the Veda is silent on this matter, after saying that Rama exists/is such a person. Here, he has mentioned people who are "over there", whom we are not sure are impulsive like Indra, smoky, or colorful, but we can be pretty sure Trasadasyu has magnified this for the Purus.

    We might be able to say, Rjisvan "went there", and Trasadasyu "brought it out". That sounds like his association with Rishi Atri. Five Tribes.

    Gotama knew of something amazing, and Vamadeva testifies it was spread to everyone. One, two.


    So this area is only named very selectively.

    Capping the same work of "months' rites", another significant personality is mentioned in VIII.12 by Parvata Kanva:


    Adhrigu, the great Dasagva

    also by other Kanvas and Kutsa.


    So far, he is the only one given this title; Ayasya and Dadhyan are Navagvas.


    With them, we have something to work with--now, suddenly, we are given this paramount titan who is not known as a composer of anything in the whole Rg Veda.

    Allright. Nothing quite seems to be pushing him as "the first", like Yama, but probably more from among the first successful Angirases. Someone who learned the way from others and accomplished it.


    "Adhrigu" is of course related to many other general terms built from the same stem, but is somewhat rare in this exact form. It is an epithet of Indra by Samyu Barhaspatya, "irresistable", "unstoppable".

    An epithet of Agni by Bharga Pragatha.


    Indra's Chariot by Puruhanma:


    rathebhir adhriguḥ


    and is also a quality of the Aswins by Pauru Atreya.


    The stem being similar to "mountain stones", there is this combination of acts at the beginning of I.61 by Nodhas:


    ṛ́cīṣamāyā́dhrigava


    shortly followed by a simile of the Rudras in I.64:


    ádhrigāvaḥ párvatā


    The "person" is collected in the memories of Bhujyu and Adhrigu by Kutsa.


    Probably the most telling reference to the person, Parvata Kanva is trying to get Mada, exhiliration, which is how Indra protected the Dasagva Adhrigu, who is:



    the trembling leader of heaven, (the sun), and the ocean.

    Trembling: darkness-dispelling


    Although this is a fairly long hymn, it does not name many deeds of Indra, but focuses on the mutual amplification of power. Its only corroborative statements is a basic theology with perhaps one other historical mention:


    “The excellent praise which Aditi brought forth for the imperial Indra, for our protection, is that which was(the product) of the sacrifice.”

    “Inasmuch as you are exhilarated by the Soma shared with Viṣṇu, or when (offered) by Trita, the son of the waters, or along with the Maruts, so now (be gratified) by (our) libation.”

    “When your (younger brother) Viṣṇu by (his) strength stepped his three paces, then verily your beloved horses bore you.”


    Sobhari Kanva has Adhrigu in a longer list of those protected by the Aswins.



    As well as Adhrigu, "Susravas" was given a nearly onmipotent form of rulership, over what likely means "all the tribes". We were only told this by Savya Angiras. This one has even less background. Praskanva says in I.49:


    The chariot which thou mountest, fair of shape, O Usas light to move, --
    Therewith, O Daughter of the Sky, aid men of noble fame today.


    which uses the same form designated as a personal name:


    suśravasaṃ


    and yet doesn't interpret this as "daughter of Arjuna":

    arjuni


    The common verbal stems can be distinguished, such as in I.84:


    kadā́ naḥ šušravad gíra índro aňgá

    When, verily, will Indra hear our songs of praise?


    or in I.91, Soma as the Most Susravas, which is again named in verse twenty-one:

    sušrávasaṃ



    I.49 is clearly on behalf of "the Kanvas", who perhaps are identical with "Susravases" or "followers of Susravas", and of course this is right beside the Savya hymns, which seem to intend there was such a person. If we just dispose of the translation and keep the term from the original hymn, it looks like this:




    1. E'EN from above the sky's bright realm come, Usas, by auspicious ways:
    Let red steeds bear thee to the house of him who pours the Soma, juice.

    2. The chariot which thou mountest, fair of shape, O Usas light to move,--
    Therewith, O Daughter of the Sky, aid Susravas today.

    3. Bright Usas, when thy times return, all quadrupeds and bipeds stir,
    And round about flock winged birds from all the boundaries of heaven.

    4. Thou dawning with thy beams of light illumest all the radiant realm.
    Thee, as thou art, the Kanvas, fain for wealth, have called with sacred songs.



    The same group subjugated by Susravas is given again, Kutsa, Ayu, Atithigva in II.14.


    In one reading, these are the same person:


    In Rig Veda 1.53, the three of them are delivered by Indra to the young king Turvayana.

    In the Rudram of Yajurveda, 65 out of 82 suktams are attributed to Kutsa. It is also stated that Kutsa Maharishi explained the allegories of the first laws of celestial bodies.



    We have previously encountered this difficulty; Sayana does not handle it well. Everyone seems to accept the equivalency Turvaya = Divodasa. Talageri does not deal with Susravas at all. His resolution is that we are talking about three tribes and descendants, so, for instance, there are "multiple Atithigvas". He traces the dominator's epithet in a few areas:


    TUrvayANa: I. 53.10; 174.3;
    VI. 18.13;

    X. 61.2.


    Agastya is using it as an epithet of Agni, while Nabhednedistha uses it in terms of parentage of Rudra and Aswins.


    The closest thing to what Savya is saying would be Bharadvaja:


    “That exploit is celebrated in the present day (which you have) achieved for Kutsa, for Āyu, for Atithigva; to him you have given many thousands (of riches), and you have quickly elevated Turvayāṇa over the earth by your power.”


    The following were not adequately processed:


    nadanumām̐ ṛjīṣī

    cyavano mānuṣīṇām ekaḥ kṛṣṭīnām


    and it turns out, this hymn is the view that Bharadvaja laments he does not "behold" Indra, although he has faith that the powers are real, and Indra is this type of overlord:


    dasmeṣayantam



    He mentions the defeated enemies:


    Cumuri, Dhuni, Pipru, Śambara, and Śuṣṇa


    and gives Indra this ability:


    whose union (with energy) the impious is unable to disjoint


    This is not the worst analysis:


    The same symbolism is probably expressed in the naming
    together of Kutsa, Ayu and Atithigva. The three names probably
    represent the common epithets of the Kings of the TRkSis, the
    Druhyus and the PUrus (i.e. Bharatas); and when taken in
    combination, they mean all the tribes.



    Okay. There may be something to this. If we eliminate VI.20 as anachronistic, due to including "Purukutsa" and some other stuff, here is what we get from the "real Bharadvaja".

    First of all, while talking about Divodasa "uniting" (?) all the tribes, he starts by reflecting on the primeval Brhaspati allegory:


    Be this our ancient bond of friendship with you and with Angirases here who speak of Vala.



    When it comes round again, in VI.26, he first invokes Kutsa and Susna and adds:


    Made glad with Soma-draughts and faith, thou sentest Cumuri to his sleep, to please Dabhiti.

    7. May I too, with the liberal chiefs, O Indra, acquire thy blin supreme and domination,
    When, Mightiest! Hero-girt! Nahusa heroes boast them in thee, the triply-strong Defender.
    8. So may we he thy friends, thy best beloved, O Indra, at this holy invocation.
    Best be Pratardani, illustrious ruler, in slaying foemen and in gaining riches.


    Then finally Kutsa and Susna are the first things he invokes in VI.31, which must be later in his career:


    When, Strong, with might thou holpest Divodasa who poured libations out, O Soma-buyer, and madest Bharadvaja rich who praised thee.

    5. As such, true Hero, for great joy of battle mount thy terrific car, O Brave and Manly.
    Come with thine help to me, thou distant Roamer, and, glorious God, spread among men my glory.


    What is immediately obvious is that Bharadvaja does not deal with Rjisvan.

    This is despite the fact there are numerous standard uses of "Rjisi" such as even:


    ṛjīṣíṇam índraṃ


    although he does give a non-geographical use of arjika:


    pibā tu somaṃ goṛjīkam indra

    soma mixed with curds



    Rjisvan is called the son of Vidathin by Vamadeva and Gauriviti.


    Vamra calls him "son of Usija" or "Ausija".

    "Usija" does not quite appear to be a personal name in the Rg Veda; it is fairly common in the generic sense, similar to "brahma". Near such a usage, the following relation is given by Visvamitra:


    dakṣasyeḻā

    Iḷā (the daughter) of Dakṣa



    Although "Usija" does not appear to be a character, the relation, "Ausija", is meaningful. It would be obvious if here again Talageri had not trounced the Anukramani:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): kakṣīvān dairghatamasaḥ auśijaḥ


    This is also given in the Samhita by Medhatithi:


    kakṣīvantaṃ ya auśijaḥ ||


    and again by Bharadvaja:



    Decked with bright colour he dispels the darkness, like Ausija, with clear flame swiftly flying.


    Usija has been taken as a male by the Puranas, hence "Ucathya, brother of Brhaspati". The Rig Veda mostly confirms the second half of that in Book One:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): dīrghatamā aucathyaḥ


    and Book Nine:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): ucathyaḥ

    after Medhatithi, Ayasya, and Kavi.


    Sayana explains Kaksivan in the earlier Medhatithi verse. No particular source is given. This is where his mother has the unusually truncated form Usij:

    Name of the mother of Kakṣīvat.


    an acoustic "father-mother" expression by Vamadeva:


    adrim auśijasya


    also used by Atri:


    Bring ye your riches forward borne on horses: let thought be framed for help and gain of treasure.
    Blest he the priest of Ausija through courses, the courses which are yours the fleet, O Maruts.


    In the personal words of Kaksivan:



    “Whenever I, the son of Uśij, worship with my offerings (of food) those two (Aśvins) who eat and drink (of oblations and libations) at (the season) of the world-whitening (dawn); do you, Priests, glorify the grandson of the waters (Agni), and render (the divinities of the day and night) the mothers (as it were) of the man who repeats their praise.”

    “I, the son of Uśij, address to you (Aśvins) audible praises, in like manner as Ghoṣā praised you for the removal of her white-tinted (skin); I glorify (gods) the bountiful Pūṣan (associated) with you, and I proclaim the munificence of Agni.”


    Dirghatamas calls himself "Aucathya" twice in I.158, and:


    Dirghatamas the son of Mamata hath come to length of days in the tenth age of human kind.
    He is the Brahman of the waters as they strive to reach their end and aim: their charioteer is he.


    At face value, if a Vedic yuga is five years, Dirghatamas wrote that when he was fifty, not in any particular grand cycle of the entire human race.

    So that does say the father of Dirghatamas, Mamata = Ucathya, brother of Brhaspati.

    Dirghatamas and Usij are the two parents of Kaksivan.


    The implication is that either Rjisvan is the brother of Kaksivan, or, Rjisvan is Kaksivan. Or, even weirder, he may be the half-brother begot by Vidathin--Bharadvaja and Usij.


    The only other place that so far I find any resemblance of the name is from a donor to Samvarana Prajapatya:


    vidathasya

    Vidhata, the son of Marutaśva



    We find for this spelling, Vidhata, a deity or Aditya, counterpart of Dhata, such as in X.167 by:



    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): viśvāmitrajamadagnī



    Actually, we cannot be sure who is "Vidathin", especially when we realize that the Puranas deal with an alternate spelling, Vitatha:


    The real name of this son was Dīrghatamas or Vitatha.


    They say that Bharadvaja *is* Dirghatamas.


    That name however is not present in the Rg Veda. So we should hesitate to jump to this conclusion for "Vidathin". It may be an alias of someone, but that someone is probably not Bharadvaja. That one has a different sound and a meaning of "false", so, the two spellings are nearly opposites in meaning.

    Strange things are possible, we are dealing with adoption after being raised by the Marutgana, the "twins" may be one and the same person, but, if so, it is going to take a better line of explanation. And there seems to be something like that, starting with Lame and Blind, the various symptoms cured by Aswins are things you may have "multiples" of, and you might even be Down a Well with them.


    Once we dispose of this "Vitatha" thing, what we get from the Veda is a different equivalency, or another team:



    You have subjugated Pipru and the mighty Mṛgayā for the sake of Ṛjiṣvan, the son of Vidathin...


    The foe is in Book Ten spoken by Indra Vaikuntha:


    Mṛgaya under subjection to Śrutarvan...I humiliated Veśa for Āyu; I subjugated Padgṛbhi for Savya.


    The person is again mentioned by Gopavana Atreya:


    Śrutarvān, the mighty son of Ṛkṣa


    Then it is only necessary to say:


    ārkṣe

    as donors for Priyamedha.




    Either Rksa and Srutarvan are Vidathin and Rjisvan, or, they are close allies. Both contest Mrgaya.


    This may be a colloquial twist of the name by Kutsa:


    Wherewith ye quickened the most sweet exhaustless flood, and comforted Vasistha, ye who ne' er decay;
    And to Srutarya, Kutsa, Narya gave your help...


    From an unspecified source, Srutarvan was unsuccessfully begged by Agastya.


    But so far, there are no other references to this "son of Rksa".


    However, we find this Puranic descent of Samvarana:


    Ṛkṣa-Saṃvaraṇa

    Saṃvaraṇa married Tapatī, daughter of Sūrya.

    To regain his kingdom he appointed Vasiṣṭha as his priest.

    This in fact is commented by Sayana as the whole Bharatas' acquisition of Vasistha, may be equivalent to the Dasaraja or Ten Kings' War.


    As in some other places, I think Sayana is wrong. He has put this in an inappropriate area. The hymn does not name Samvarana. It just says "the Bharatas". And, it is about something else, completely, the occult birth of Vasistha and Agastya. Now, if I am not thinking about this as bolts of white cloth extracted as tribute from some dominated village, but, just in the sense we have learned, with "the maidens" discovered beyond Usas's wrecked car, it is simple:


    “By the wisdom seated in the heart the Vasiṣṭhas traverse the hidden thousand branched world, and the Apsarasas sit down wearing the vesture spread out by Yama.”


    ...wearing the vesture spread spread by Yama, Vasiṣṭha was born of the Apsaras.


    That is just about the Vasisthas. Since the Veda does not say Samvarana was personally ruined or beseeched them, what has it got?


    The Vedic lineage is implied from IX.101:

    Manu SamvaraNa, PrajApati
    VaiSvAmitra

    to:

    SamvaraNa PrAjApatya


    who would appear to fit in the middle of those two.


    In the words of the corresponding Manu, we find:


    "intelligent Soma mixed with curds":


    vipaścitaḥ somāso dadhyāśiraḥ


    Or, dadhyasirah = gorjika. "Dadhyan" specifically means "curds", whereas "go" might be milk.


    but the end of IX.101 is by:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): prajāpatiḥ


    as in the credit for III.38:


    I have beheld in my mind, at this solemnity, the gandharvas with hair (waving) in the wind.


    Within Book Three, then, no one has asked how "Prajapati" is mixed with "Visvamitra" and then also the surname Vacya. This may be evident from one of the first few verses:


    ṛtāvarī rodasī satyavācaḥ

    "Voice of Reality", something like that, concerning:


    Their inferior abiding places are beheld, as are those which (are situated) in superior mysterious rites.

    Abiding places are beheld: as the constellations; superior mysterious rites: in the latter they are made known, it is said, by the Veda


    This is a large Visvedeva section, highly conversant with what we just posted. It highlights "twin goddesses" or yamas, who may be sisters, two mothers of the deity, or mother and daughter. This is the direction it goes:



    “I consider at present the eternal and ancient sisterhood to us of you, our great protectress and progenitrix, within whose vast and separated path your eulogists, the gods, travel in their chariots.”


    There is some emphasis on The Year, Tvastr, and Visvarupa, eventually returning to:


    dhiṣaṇe sātaye dhāḥ

    Dhiṣaṇa enable us to acquire (wealth)

    Dhiṣaṇa = the goddess of speech


    and having the same destination:

    trir uttamā dūṇaśā rocanāni


    This is, in a sense, theological great fun, and says nothing as to "Vacya" or any other personal relationships.


    Vedic Samvarana Prajapatya is definitely "late", and makes a certain point:


    ...you, who are the showerer (of benefits), have on behalf of the sun, destroyed in his own dwelling the very name of (the asura), Dāsa, in battle.


    which is because "name" or "nama" indicates the idea or thoughtform, distinctly from the body, form, or Rupa.

    This Samvarana is the one who tells us Trasadasyu's "master race":


    gairikṣitasya


    and refers to this enemy:

    mṛgāya


    while is in the process of promoting:


    Śatri, the son of Agniveśa


    a householder who is, by nature, gives generously (to others)


    Let's say he is remembering this ancient riddle, Mrgaya, through the most intimate awareness of the Paurukutsas, that is, their third name. Rjisvan and Trasadasyu are both dealing with Vishnu Trivikrama:


    The highest step of Viṣṇu is regarded as his ultimate abode. He is called giriṣṭhā, girikṣit, etc., which mean dwelling in the highest position.

    Dirghatamas uses it as an epithet of Vishnu, taken by Sayana as "dwells in Speech"--but then "or in high places"--the verse referring to the Three Steps.

    Samvarana knows a mix of astronomy and current yoga practices. I'm pretty sure that's what he is saying.


    Because information is scarce, the Veda does not really say anything pro or con any potential mate of his.

    This is the Puranic view of Tapati:


    Sūrya married Saṃjñā daughter of Viśvakarmā. He begot of Saṃjñā two children named Kālindī and Yama. At that time Sūrya (Sun) was not of the form as seen now. Saṃjñā, unable to bear the splendour of Sūrya who was of the shape of an egg entrusted her maid Chāyā with the work of serving her husband and left for a temple in the guise of a mare to do penance. Chāyā disguised as Saṃjñā served Sūrya for a very long period. Sūrya begot of her two children, Śanaiścara and Tapatī. Besides these, Sūrya had another daughter named Sāvitrī also.


    The Rg Veda does not have "Tapati" as a personal name; it is commented into Gathi Kausika:


    the bright region above the sun: rocane parastāt sūryasya: rocana = loka or region where the fiery radiance burns...tapatī, above the sun, sūryasyopariṣṭāt


    and is sometimes a verb form of "sunshine" or "solar heat", but nowhere an actress.


    We would ask if it is necessary to distinguish "Tapati" from "Surya Savitri".


    The finesse of the relationship would be given by VIII.51:


    Manu, the descendant of Saṃvaraṇa


    followed by four Kanvas seeking to imitate the practices. Between them is an "aged" Praskanva. This is probably making a different statement than the next hymn, which refers to:


    ...did drink the effused Soma from Manu Vivasvat, as you did accept the hymn from Trita...

    with numerous persons, including:


    ...Daśoṇya, Syumaraśmi...



    While "vaivasvata" seems fairly plainly understood as Manu "from the population", it is possible a different aspect is mentioned here:


    Saṃvaraṇa (संवरण) refers to “covering” and is the action (karma) associated with Sthūla (“gross”)

    Saṃvaraṇa (संवरण).—lit. concealment

    concealment, secrecy


    There is probably no way that Samvarana Prajapatya could be directly related to Vedic Rksa.

    The sense from the above would mean before Praskanva. "Rksa" seems to mean before Rjisvan and Kaksivan, as he can only be defined as the "father" of someone involved with defeating Mrgaya.




    There is not a lot about "rksa" as a person, but it has a selective etymology. Similar in meaning to "rjisa", there is "rkso" by Syavasva:

    Impetuous as a bear

    and also we find "rksa" as "constellations" by Sunashepa in I.24.


    That certainly shapes it towards the same intent as "Rahuganas", and probably the first Brhaspati legend as well, being about time, astronomy, and so forth, as being a secret or concealed knowledge known to the Rishis. That does not mean that a very elaborate system of twenty-seven lunar deities was "complete" before the late Atharva Veda, but, I think we are looking at a quite similar beginning being pushed through this whole thing.



    Vedic "Rksa" is as by Gopavana Atreya in Book Eight:


    śrutarvā bṛhann ārkṣo

    really only deals with the son:

    śrutarvaṇa ārkṣasya dānastutiḥ


    and by Priyamedha as visited by Rksa and son, who does not get a name. Here, it is like an "all the tribes" version. The "influence" is by the father:

    ṛkṣāśvamedhayordānastutiḥ



    Srutarva, being called the victor of Mrgaya by Indra Vaikuntha, is consistent with an "early" period, to which an Atreya should not apply. Gopavana makes a few basic references to legendary Atri. Otherwise, he has no connections, whereas in Book Eight, the other Atreyas, Syavasva and Apala, seem rather significant. It may be that he is not derived from Rishi Atri, has perhaps been "assigned" that way due to the remarks. He is listed only a few hymns after Priyamedha.


    But since there is another Atri of Book Ten, we speculated it might be the real name of "Atri Bhauma", or, it could perhaps be someone else, earlier, having Gopavana as a disciple. The problem is the published Anukramani spammed him as the author of most of Book Three, which is obviously a computer error. He is not in Book Five, as if a stranger to the Atreyas. Rather than messing up the chronology, it may really be the case that he is after a different Atri.



    An association appears to be made with Priyamedha in VIII.87:


    KRSna ANgiras, ViSvaka KArSNI, DyumnIka VAsiSTha

    The first of whom re-surfaces later in X.42-44:

    GhoSA KAkSIvatI
    Suhastya GhauSeya
    KRSNa Angiras


    But Book Eight seems to be saying that "Krsna" *is* Visvaka Karsni, who even reflects on an antecedent named Vimana.

    The closest thing to "Dyumnika" if a composer is:


    V.23 Dyumna ViSvacarSaNI Atreya


    who is in fact:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): dyumno viśvacarṣaṇiḥ


    We are going through someone who is ok with just putting something like "Atreya" wherever. Of course, he also seems to lampoon them for "attempting" a super-hero type legend after Atri was gone. I'm not sure that is exactly right, either, because in the Rg Veda, Atri himself is personally pivotal, in terms of Trasadasyu. According to Vamadeva, it is an incredible success. As soon as you turn to Gotama, the "it" or "what" is mantric yoga attuned to astronomy. This is easily retrievable.



    Our Book Three Anukramani is damaged, but, it has this which he over-wrote as "fictitious" for III.23:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): devaśravā devavātaśca bhāratī


    The published Anukramani breaks shortly after it sounds like Visvamitra is talking about the Aila Pauravas when he describes Agni:


    ...whom the daughter of Dakṣa (receives) as the parent of the world.

    Iḷā (the daughter) of Dakṣa has sustained you...


    Fortunately, it does show a critical authorship change for one verse, III.36.10:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): ghora āṅgirasaḥ


    So, Visvamitra appears to have included the Guru of Kanva Ghaura. He seems to respect the Pauravas. And his Apri Hymn has the most in common with that of Vasistha, compared to any other "copies" within the Rg Veda.


    Were they following someone else's trend? The Bharatas' Apri comes from:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): sumitro vādhryaścaḥ


    who is between Ayasya and Brhaspati.


    And there is not one for "Bharadvajas", rather, it is called "Angirases", given by Dirghatamas who first praises:


    naktoṣāsā


    then:

    Bhāratī, among the Maruts, and may the adorable Iḷā, Sarasvatī, Mahī, sit down upon the sacred grass.

    or, marutsu-bhāratī = vāc, situated in heaven, dyusthānā and connected with bharata, an Āditya, or name of the sun; iḷā, sarasvatī, mahī = sound (vāc); or the goddesses presiding over sound in the three regions, severally of earth, firmament, and heaven


    Vanaspati: the fire,or Agni of the sacrificial post, or yupa, from its being of timber


    He may not have known he was making "an Apri Hymn" or something that would be stylisticly imitated by each new Gotra.

    Purpose is simple; commands the Devas to appear (Dhyana).



    It is very telling that on the first line, Medhatithi venerates Kaksivan Ausija.

    He actually goes on to venerate Dhi.

    He also does so with the relatively rare Agni from the Dirghatamas Apri, Narasamsa. It is used in several Apri Hymns, but otherwise only by few, such as Kutsa, Saryata Manava, Gopavana Atreya.

    We have to understand this breaks Puranic male Usij, the father is still said to be Dirghatamas by the Veda. And, there is nothing to add about who "Usij" might have been--the comment requires Puranic Kalinga:


    A tribe born of Dīrghatamas and Bali's wife; enlisted by Jarāsandha against the Yadus


    which is the Coromandel Coast, which is a rather ambitious jump.

    Sayana does not name the king or queen involved. He says Usij was a servant substitute. By implication, whatever happened had started from the request of an impotent king. That much would make perfect sense. The Rg Veda deals in several kinds of surrogate parentage.

    It is also deeply about Trivikrama Vishnu, and the Aswins.



    One of the linked hymns already gives this plainly in one of its verses. Making things a bit more difficult, there is a Harvard study on Nasatya and Asvina as being significant to cattle and horses, respectively.



    Quote On the evidence of RV 2.41.7 we can conclude that the name Nā́satyā properly belonged to the father of the intelligent Sahadeva, the divine twin who is called the son of Dyaús in RV 1.181.4. The name Aśvínā, by the same token, properly belonged to the father of the warrior Nakula, the divine twin who is called the son of Súmakha in RV 1.181.4.

    It was the father of Sahadeva, the epic “cowherd,” to whom the two Vedic duals, Nā́satyā and dasrā́, properly belonged. Another of the twins’ dual epithets, divó nápātā, “sons of Dyaús,” properly belonged to this twin as well: in RV 1.181.4, where the twin gods are distinguished from each other, one is called the “son of Dyaús,” the other the son of Súmakha

    The Baltic twins have a sister who corresponds to Helen, the sister of the Dioskouroi. Vedic has an equivalent figure, but she is the twins’ common wife rather than their sister. The name of the Vedic figure is Sūryā́, the feminized form of sū́rya, the “sun,” and this figure is also called duhitā́ sū́ryasya, “daughter of the sun.” The sister of the Baltic twins is likewise called “daughter of the sun,” Latvian saules meita and Lithuanian saulės dukterys.

    In Indo-European the “daughter of the sun” was apparently at once the sister and the common wife of the twins.

    A passage quoted by Yāska (Nirukta 12.2) supports this conclusion by stating that “one (of the twins) is called the son of night, the other the son of dawn.”

    They are called children of Rudra, and of Saranyu. But they are correct about Surya Savitri, or Urjani.

    Not in a permanent way, since the idea is, this moves through a human being.

    Ayasya is Yama's close descendant; implicitly, Adhrigu would be between them. The earliest recorded Rishis are not speaking much beyond their grandfathers. That seems to be the problem with "Emperor Bharata"--no tangible individual. It may be the difficulty in:

    Matitha YAmAyana, or BhRgu, or Cyavana
    BhArgava


    it may be identical to:

    Atharvan --> Dadhyan


    Puzzlingly said by Indra Vaikuntha:


    I am the slayer of seven (asuras)

    ahaṃ saptahā nahuṣo nahuṣṭaraḥ



    No, of course it doesn't say "asuras", because it can't; it says "nahusas".

    I would concede there might be a handful of examples of "Suras--priests" reflected in an enemy called "asuras--no priests", but, this is probably less common than the "asurayas" or "sunless".

    At most, it never refers to "a race", since from the Puranas it means two of them, the Daityas and Danavas. And you perhaps could say that "Danavas" are a Vedic foe.

    But, like with Yadu, Nahusa, and some kings, sages, or races, probably have two aspects, one of which is "subjugated" or "converted". Others, such as Mrgaya, are only cast in an enemy status. And, "Aryas" is closer to meaning "our relatives", some of whom are enemies. Not many. But some.

    It sounds like a horrible idea to conjure some Vedic enmity where there is none, such as Visvamitra and Vasistha.

    In some cases, there are disputes, such as how the Ikshvakus temporarily lost Agni. It is interesting and probably quite relevant to what happened.

    What we have been told of the Bhrgus and Angirases is far less compelling. I do not yet really see any corresponding split, rift, and rivalry. Instead, it seems that reviewers have not discerned "bhrgus" from "bhargavas", and, in simple terms, the Bhargavas are Kanvas, and, well, the Kanvas actually *do* look like one of the first rishi families who may have had the *most* to do with the development and spread detected by Vamadeva and the actual compilation of contents of the Rg Veda (not Vyasa).


    I think we have a better picture of the early Angirases.

    The "Angiras Apri" is attributed in such a way as a Visvedeva Hymn. The Bharati version however specifically deifies "Apri". Dirghatamas iterated Bharati twice. Sumitra's Apri Hymn already involves this expression:


    ūrdhvo grāvā


    does not name his tutelary deity but calls her:


    ghṛtapadī


    announces a type of allegiance:


    “Divine Tvaṣṭā, since you have attained to beauty (through our oblations), and have become the associate of the Aṅgirasas, do you, the bestower of wealth, possessed of precious treasure, and knowing (to whom each portion belongs), offer the food of the gods (to them).”



    And so in the way he is perhaps slightly "junior to" or influenced by Ayasya and Brhaspati according to his placement, theologically, his hymn may be an offshoot from that of Dirghatamas.


    Although he was spelled weird, in X.69, he uses his first and last names both in the singular and plural:


    vadhryaśvasya


    May that your army of flame, Agni, which Manu, which Sumitra has kindled, be the newest...


    and attributes Agni with a basic version of things also granted elsewhere to Indra:


    dāsā vṛtrāṇy


    This character has as well rendered the impossible, calling himself the son of the impotent father.

    The lineages in the Rg Veda are not quite as simple as the main authors of the Family Books. Already, Ayasya, Rjisvan, Ucathya, Dirghatamas, and Kaksivan, in particular, have not just the Aswins but Usas in an intricate theophany, that appears more relevant towards personal issues and yogic ability. Even Dirghatamas and the first Apri are commands for deities to appear, which, as we found, is the first stage to moving oneself into the "third step" of Vishnu.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Rjrasva and Kaksivan, Dirghatamas and the "nucleus" (1 of 2)




    So far, I can't really say the Veda is that much about empire building. It may be about culture building, along with Speech, and this seems to be a different and more interesting story than is usually revealed by having another focus. If you *insist* that it could only be about invasions and Caesar-like archetypes, there is enough to give you a starting point. But it's undeveloped, I don't think this is what the collection is even trying to talk about.

    It is closer to defining itself as New Speech that has come from a certain event, and describing what that is and how it emanates across a new and distinct culture.


    This flows from finding that the timeline of the Rg Veda must be geometric, not linear. Part of the geometry is simply "backwards". So we think that some of the first authors in Book One, such as Medhatithi, have gathered some historical material, which is at the end of the Book. Visually, Kasyapa I.99 and Rjrasva I.100 are easily noticeable as single-hymn authors. We think they may be intermediaries or fulcrums, between the "humble origins" of Vedic practice, and its maturity as the status quo.


    What is doubly noticeable is that Kasyapa writes a single-line hymn, which becomes the basis for Durga Suktam.

    If we research I.100, this is an immediate wreck.

    Talageri has repeated the Puranic information that Sahadeva is the son of Sudas, as if that were important. First of all, at most, Sahadeva is a minor figure, named as existing and not much else. Secondly, the information contradicts the Veda, which in I.100 calls him the son of:


    vṛṣāgiro mahārājasya



    Vrsagir has no lore or context other than this parenting of Sahadeva, Rjrasva, and the others.

    He does not have a last name, and does not seem to be spoken about anywhere else whatsoever.


    Line seventeen says that it is Rjrasva and his companions doing the praise, not their father. He doesn't really write anything. I'm not sure that means he was irrelevant.


    This is exceptional in another way, since, amongst Vedic kings, "raja" is usually unqualified. "Kasiraja" is unique, in that none of the others are king of "a place", and here we have found a Maha Raja. Similar titles such as "emperor" have mostly been withheld to deities; the "samrat" in here is:


    vṛṣā vṛṣṇyebhiḥ



    The Purana would be correct, if this in fact means that Vrsagir *is* Sudas as the father of Sahadeva, but, this is not apparent from the Samhita. If we consider it unlikely that he came out of nowhere, but, may be an alias or at least connected somehow, what would the Rg Veda support?


    Sahadeva is minor, but, one of the Varsagiras is very famous; Ambarisa is reinforced by his descendant in the nucleus of Book Ten:


    Sindhudhvipa Ambarisa with Trisiras Tvastra


    Curiously, this one detail does exactly match the Puranic Ikshvaku Dynasty after Nabhaga:


    Ambarīṣa was his son and Sindhudvīpa was the next king.


    That page is filled with the authentic Vedic entities such as Mandhata and Trasadasyu, which are utterly scrambled. This is like a wishbone, one Puranic stream makes Vrsagir into Sudas, and this one would be Nabhaka Kanva. So far, the Rg Veda is not very forthcoming about such a concrete identity. Nabhaka clearly places Mandhata in his heritage.

    Well, from the way things seem to accumulate, it would not be surprising for Vrsagir to come from "nowhere" if he was an Ikshvaku.

    They are making a lot of noise about Ambarisa, but, Rjrasva is also inter-textually distributed amongst multiple Rishis. In this case, Rjrasva of the Rg Veda seems to have been blotted out later by Sahadeva, who did not have much presence originally.


    In Book One, the Varsagiras' hymn is shortly followed by Kaksivan, who has everything to do with some distribution. This is how he is remembered by Vamadeva IV.21:


    When sitting pondering in deep devotion in Ausija's abode they ply the press-stone,
    May he whose wrath is fierce, the mighty bearer, come as the house-lord's priest within our chambers.

    Surely the power of Bharvara the mighty for ever helpeth to support the singer;
    That which in Ausija's abode lies hidden, to come forth for delight and for devotion.



    Vamadeva has just credited Kaksivan as a significant source of the Rishis' practice. And this is what he said while in the womb in IV.26:

    I WAS aforetime Manu, I was Surya: I am the sage Kaksivan, holy singer.
    Kutsa the son of Arjuni I master. I am the sapient Usana behold me.




    Before we decide how literally to take that, we find that Rjrasva is known to Kaksivan I.117 in a rather unusual way, concerning the Aswins:


    vṛkīr aśvinā vṛṣaṇā nareti |


    the she-wolf invoked you



    Although there is an apparent Bull Man phrase on that line, at best, the translators render it as:


    For me Rjrasva, like a youthful lover...


    The verses say that Rjrasva gave sheep to the wolf, for which his father blinded him. Vrsagira is personally called "wicked", and this is the only thing he is known to do. In turn, the wolf invokes the Aswins to restore Rjrasva's sight.


    Here is where we begin to wonder if these are poetic attributes of one person, aliases, or generic qualities. Sayana equates him to Paravrj of II.13:


    ...the name of Ṛjraśva is understood, as the individual who was made to see; Sroṇa was the name of him who was made to walk; prāndha (blind) and śrona (lame) were epithets of Parāvṛj


    Significantly, the generic case comes around again in II.14 after the rescue of Dabhiti:


    With mighty power he made the stream flow upward, crushed with his thunderbolt the car of Usas,
    Rending her slow steeds with his rapid coursers. These things did Indra in the Soma's rapture.

    Knowing the place wherein the maids were hiding, the outcast showed himself and stood before them.
    The cripple stood erect, the blind beheld them. These things did Indra in the Soma's rapture.




    In other words, Dabhiti has had a river stopped for him, and then this merry chase follows. But we have already been given a river stoppage event. It is part of why the Bharatas are supposed to be important.


    More significantly, in terms of inner meaning, these two "spiritual diseases", Blind and Lame, are transformed at the place of the "maidens".


    This alias (?) Dabhiti comes in as only the *second* event, after Vrtra in X.113:


    Indra, when he subdues Dhuni and Cumuri, lists to Dabhiti for his faithful spirit's sake.


    Kutsa refers to Dabhiti in X.112 with another name of Divodasa, Kasoju, along with Adhrigu and Mandhata.



    So the Vasagiras must have been slightly before Kaksivan and Vamadeva.

    They are partially remembered as personal names; if it was anything like a Family or Gotra, it may be carried forward in the following names:


    KumAra/VRSa JAna Atreya (the Ikshvaku priest of Trayaruna is Vrsa, son of Jara)

    VasiSTha MaitrAvarunI, Indrapramati
    VAsiSTha, VRSagaNa VAsiSTha...


    TryaruNa TraivRSNa, Trasadasyu Paurukutsa

    VRSAnaka (Vatarasa)


    There, the associations with Ikshvakus and Vasisthas have some gravity. So does a fusion with Atri. That seems to be an important point, the harmonization of "Five Tribes" to the central tradition.


    The first study told us that I.100 was a pivotal Varsagiras' Battle which took over enough of Afghanistan to name about five new rivers.



    The objective view is only partially accurate:



    This battle hymn contains the only reference (in 1.100.18)
    in the whole of the Rigveda outside the DASarAjna hymns
    (VI 1.18.5) to the Simyus, who figure as the enemies in both the
    references.



    Yes, but, these are more like descriptions of types of people, categories of behavior. There is little to tie them to some archaic village or historical entity, much like the "Panis" would hardly have been some foreigner's name for themselves.

    Now, if this is a "battle hymn", it is underwhelming that public enemy number one would not come in until almost the end, and may just perhaps be a slur:


    dasyūñchimyūṃś < dasyūn < dasyu

    “savage; outcast; mugger.”



    It is entirely possible, even likely, that human beings can be understood as "opponents" in a few of the verses; and yet there are people-free zones where the clash is:


    Jyotis. = light; cit-tāmasi = in the darkness of thought; hopefully, Indra will give the light of knowledge to darkness of understanding


    Triumph goes to the "white-clad":


    śvitnyebhiḥ

    winds or Maruts



    which, again, I am just not sure that *has* to mean extracting bolts of white cotton from a subjugated populace. As we shall see later it may be a Gana or Gotra.

    Any idea that Sudas is the father of Sahadeva, an important military commander in this foreign campaign, would not seem to have anything to do with what is actually in the hymn.

    Its conclusion much more strongly gives the sense that it is simply a daily Indra routine:


    May Indra be daily our vindicator...


    The hymn seems to suggest that Rjrasva is the Rishi and the others are following along.

    We might notice that Rjrasva, the person, talks about Indra, while, as a subject, Rjrasva is spoken of by others in relation to the Aswins.


    One way is indirectly commented as Prāndha (blind) in Kutsa I.112:


    “Showerers (of benefits), with those aids by which you enabled (the lame) Parāvṛj (to walk), the blind (Ṛjraśva) to see, and (the cripple) Śroṇa to go, and by which you set free the quail when seized (by a wolf)...





    But, out of a lengthy diatribe on Aswin successes, perhaps the more occult part is given when he is named in Kaksivan I.116:


    Quote “When his father caused, Ṛjrāśvā, as he was giving to a she-wolf a hundred sheep cut up in pieces, to become blind, you, Dasras, physicians (of the gods), gave him eyes (that had been) unable to find their way, with which he might see.”


    vṛkā was one of the asses of the Aśvins in disguise, to test his charitable disposition


    “The daughter of the sun ascended your car, (like a runner) to a goal; when you won (the race) with your swift horse, all the gods looked on with (anxious hearts), and you, Nāsatyas, were associated with glory.”


    Sūrya was desirous of giving his daughter Sūrya to Soma, but all the gods desired her as a wife; they agreed that he who should first reach the sun, as a goal should wed the damsel. The Aśvins were victorious, and Sūrya, well pleased by their success, rushed immediately into their chariot


    Vṛṣabha and Śiṃśumāra


    “When, Aśvins, being invited, you went to his dwelling (to give due rewards) to Divodāsa, offering oblations, then your helping chariot conveyed (food and) treasure, and the bull and the porpoise were yoked together.”




    Let's see. The major character trait of Rjrasva was caused by the Aswins to begin with. That's not a last resort. They did it. Then, they win Usas, although this is only a temporary stage in her progress. Then, we have the unique example in the Rg Veda of the important Varuna constellation, Simsumara, which was "yoked" in the time of Divodasa.

    The other known Varsagira, Ambarisa says:


    “Those ancient Soma juices flow into the filter at the dawn, driving away in the early morning the concealed and ignorant thieves.”


    Rjrasva was by or before Kaksivan.

    So far, it seems to me, Kaksivan might perhaps be "middle", contrasted to this being "late":


    Atri is a receiver of donations from, at first, Trayaruna Trivrsna (an Ikshvaku), and, eventually, Trasadasyu (an Ikshvaku).

    These two are co-composers of a Soma hymn, where they are in this kind of war:


    “Immortal Soma, you have generated (the sun) among mortals in (the firmament), the support of the truthful auspicious ambrosia; streaming forth you go to battle continually.”


    along with unspecified, mysterious nocturnal luminances:


    “Beholding him certain celestial Vasurucas praise him as a kinsman before the shining Savitā drives away the obstructing (darkness).”


    Trasadasyu boldly states his own power in Atma IV.42, which is obviously inspiring Vamadeva in the rest of Book Four. Vamadeva is from an Angiras lineage, and is something more than an ordinary individual. It is not yet clear to me how or why Atri would jump in to this same patronage. This is what changes the nature of the "Books", and suddenly there are a whole lot of Atreyas.



    Rishi Kaksivan



    The Kaksivan material I.116-126 begins with about five Aswins hymns, has a couple in the Indra/Visvedeva style, and then honors Usas. His personal name is iterated with no, either, or both parents, and you easily get the sense they are from different parts of his life.

    Kaksivan's coverage is vast enough that he refers to his daughter Ghosa's cure, and, aliased at that.

    We have looked at this in terms of the extensive list of Vedic Rishis he mentions, and, roughly put, it may be a fair-sized bunch, but, the group is somewhat consistently repeated in the longer hymns. It is something like a canon, a standard. It includes Atri, which we take as in reference to a pre-Vedic legend, as is also probably Rebha. Nowhere does it actually say Rebha Kasyapa, so, what is more likely is this Rishi is named for a legend, while Kasyapa, himself, is not. Quite possibly, the Sages Rebha and Atri worked together, logically taking names that were already associated. I don't see how that could be any kind of a "trick". Everyone would understand it.


    Several of the Aswins' rescues have a Down a Well motif, and a combination of symptoms.


    This time, instead of focusing on how broad and extensive the references are, let us take his entire set of hymns and try to pry out some of his main meanings.


    The original Aswins' steed is not a Horse:


    tad rāsabho nāsatyā sahasram ājā yamasya pradhane jigāya ||


    the ass of you, thus instigated, overcame a thousand (enemies) in conflict, in the war grateful to Yama.


    Kaksivan's most frequent self-reference--and for his kindred--is taken to mean "Angirases":


    pajriyāya kakṣīvate


    If his father is supposed to be Dirghatamas, who composed the Angiras "Apri Hymn", then Kaksivan can use the name literally, or, in a catch phrase as he mostly seems to be doing.

    One of the rescues he mentions that is not widely spoken of is:


    Pedu


    who of course is known to Ghosa.

    They probably got it from Vasistha, who clearly says the Aswins are about steeds and cattle:

    aśvāmaghā gomaghā


    If Vasistha is an Ikshvaku, he might be saying something unrelated to previous material. Therefor, we see timing and proximity for Vasistha and Kaksivan. Pedu is not remembered by anyone else.


    We will notice someone who must have happened by or before him:


    Gotama


    That does not leave a lot of room for the time of Kaksivan and Vamadeva to be much different.


    Very plainly, Kaksivan truncated Indra--Agni--Visvedevas, which should have been already famous. He exalts the Aswins and Usas. In this process, Kaksivan is far from ignorant of the main legend referred to in the transmissions and in the Puranas:


    “I proclaim, leaders (of sacrififce), for the sake of acquiring wealth, that inimitable deed which you performed, as the thunder (announces) rain, when provided by you with the head of a horse. Dadhyañc, the son of Atharvan, taught you the mystic science.”


    The weird-looking end of that name is equivalent to "-ik" such as in "Dadhikra".


    He also writes in a way that makes us wonder if the same person is called Hiranyahasta or Suhastya Ghauseya:


    “The intelligent (Vadhrimati) invoked you. Nāsatyas, who are the accomplishers (of desires) and the protectors of many, with a sacred hymn; her prayer was heard, like (the instruction of) a teacher, and you, Aśvins, gave to the wife of an impotent husband, Hiraṇyahasta, her son.”


    There seem to be two names for his daughter and grandson, neither one of which has to do with a hand severed in battle.


    In these verses, Sayana says:


    Figuratively, vṛka is Āditya, the sun, from whose grasp or over-powering radiance, the Aśvins are said to have rescued the dawn, upon her appeal to them


    That comment reminisces of Saranyu and Surya. Unbearable, too much power. However it is in "wolf" guise.


    He mentions the half-familiar sounding Prthusravas, a donor to Vasa.


    These phrases seem to convey his steady emphasis:


    you bestowed, Aśvins, a husband upon Ghoṣā, growing old and tarrying in her father's dwelling.

    the daughter of the sun, Nāsatyas, invested your chariot with beauty.

    therefore, has the intelligent (Ghoṣā) called upon you

    he [Dadhyan] revealed to you the mystic knowledge which he had learned from Tvaṣṭā

    you restored to life the triply-mutilated Śyāva.

    the youthful daughter of Sūrya ascended, delighted, this your car

    Ūrjāni, (the daughter of the sun), has ascended, Aśvins, your car.

    ...the damsel, who was the prize, came through affection, to you, and acknowledged your (husbandship), saying, "you are (my) lords".

    you brought forth the sage (Vāmadeva) from the womb


    There, it does not specifically name Vamadeva. Of course, it matches what Vamadeva says. If we try to say, well, Vamadeva must mean he is the "reincarnation" of Kaksivan, that would fall apart, if Kaksivan already knows the same thing. This, in turn, makes it more difficult to say they are *not* the same person.


    Then we find the attribution in this distinct manner:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): uśikputraḥ kakṣīvān

    Powerful is the hymn that was repeated by the son of Ghoṣā, and by Bhṛgu, and with which hymn the Aṅgirasas adore you...


    It sounds like him acting as a personal bridge from his grandson to his grandfather's legends.


    He may be speaking of himself as being cured of the two major symptoms:


    “Hear the song of the stumbling (blind man), for verily, Aśvins, I glorify you, recovering my eyes (through you), who are protectors of good works”

    Ṛjra"sva = the blind man


    Well, we know Rjrasva might be a legitimate interpretation of "blind", except here, Kaksivan is "I".


    He then briefly invokes:



    Etaśa, Indra


    mentions again:

    in like manner as Ghoṣā praised you for the removal of her white-tinted (skin)


    leaves this difficult clue:


    iṣṭāśva iṣṭaraśmir eta īśānāsas


    says that in order for Agni or Indra or the rite to work, one must be:


    anāgaso


    Anāgas (अनागस्).—a.

    1) Innocent, blameless;

    2) Conferring bliss or happines.

    1) Āgas (आगस्):—n. transgression, offence, injury, sin, fault, [Ṛg-veda; Atharva-veda etc.]

    2) ([Greek] ἄγος.)


    The caluminator: abhiśastim etam = this calumny; the antecent of yaḥ, he who, is in the masculine, hence abhiśastri = accuser or calumniator is identified; in these two ways: offence, āgas or aparādha, and sin or wretchedness, enas or pāpa


    Kaksivan invokes a new name:


    Ahanā = uṣā


    Next, a few more views of lovely Dawn:


    “Uṣā, endowed with truth, who are the sister of Bhaga, the sister of Varuṇa, be you hymned first (of the gods); then let the worker of iniquity depart, for we shall overcome him with our chariot, through your assistance.”

    ..the irreproachable (dawn) precede the distant course of Varuṇa by thirty yojanas...

    “Goddess, manifest in person like a maiden, you go to the resplendent and munificent (sun), and, like a youthful bride (before her husband), you uncover, smiling, your bosom in his presence.”

    “Radiant as a bride decorated by her mother, you willingly display your person to the view. Do you, auspicious Uṣā, remove the investing (gloom), for, other dawns than you do not disperse it.”

    She is beheld nigh at hand, (radiant) as the breast of the illuminator (the sun); and, like Nodhas, has made manifest many pleasing (objects)

    ...like a wife desirous to please her husband, Uṣā puts on becoming attire, and smiling as it were, displays her charms.



    Only at the end, does he give a bit on his personal rise. Kaksivan was assisted by and in turn reverences Dampati and Svanaya, whose father:


    Bhavya, dwelling on the banks of the Sindhu


    This must have been a good day:


    Ten chariots drawn by bay steeds, and carrying my wives, stood near me, given me by Svanaya


    Flatteringly, at the very end for Kaksivan, these friends take over the hymn and finish it:


    Quote “She, who, when her desires are assented to, clings as tenaciously as a female weasel, and who is ripe for enjoyment, yields me infinite delight.”

    Bhāvya says this to his wife Lomaśa

    “Approach me, (husband); deem me not immature; I am covered with down like a ewe of the gandhārins.”

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): romaśā brahmavādinī

    This and previous verse are brought in abruptly and in a different metre



    Rishi Dirghatamas


    Continuing to his father, Dirghatamas ought to be the brother of Bharadvaja, whom for example already knows multiple Indra instances by name. Nothing like that is present here. He doesn't seem to say anything about his brother or son. He begins with a block of Agni hymns, which are rather basic, so, you can tell the one used as an Apri Hymn has been selectively lifted out, since it has a Visvedeva twist that is not seen in the others. They just say some things that are about Agni, that are mostly unnecessary because it is common. This Agni practice has the quality of:


    mumukṣvaḥ, giving liberation


    to:

    manave mānavasyate


    Although an Angiras, he quickly mentions:


    bhṛgavo

    whom the descendants of Bhṛgu placed by the strength of all beings upon the navel of the earth


    A certain kind of priests inhabit the sun:


    kavayo

    abhavat sūryo


    He makes an expected self-reference:


    Your fostering (rays), Agni, beholding the blind son of Mamatā, relieved him of the affliction

    The blind son of Mamatā: the legend: Mamatā was the the wife of Utatthya; her son was Dīrghatamas, long-darkness, being the blindness or ignorance which is the natural offspring of Mamatā, mine-ness, or selfishness



    His entire persona may be a figurative concept.


    He already has the Three Luminances:


    trī rocanāni


    where:

    These two verses are copied in Sama Veda.


    It gets moderately deeper:


    Sage Agni, the mortal (who propitiates you) becomes a moon in heaven

    the Chandogās are authority for obtaining the condition of the moon; pitṛlokādākāśam ākāśāc-candramasam eṣa somo rājā, from the region of the pitṛs to the ākāśa; from ākāśa to the moon, this is soma, the king. Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad also refers to: dyulokaprāptiḥ, the attainement of heaven



    His next section is Mitravaruna.

    This perhaps is an historical reference:


    purumīḻhasya

    As these, like friends, have done this work for you, these prompt servants of Purumilha Soma-offerer,
    Give mental power to him who sings the sacred song, and hearken, Strong Ones, to the master of the house.


    Describing the sun:


    We behold the lover of the maiden (dawns)



    There comes a sudden metaphysical swing:


    ...connecting the inconceivable mystery (of sacred rites) with the radiance (abiding) in Mitra and Varuṇa...

    Connecting the inconceivable mystery: acittambrahma yuvānaḥ: acittam = citta aviṣayam, not an object of the mind or thought;


    he is again:


    the devout son of Mamatā


    seems to mention one odd king:


    Rātahavya


    So far, Dirghatamas is fairly pat, a bit verbose, and not necessarily the greatest writer. That changes with Vishnu Trivikrama I.154:


    “Earnestly I glorify the exploits of Viṣṇu, who made the three worlds; who sustained the lofty aggregate site (of the spheres); thrice traversing (the whole); who is praised by the exalted.”


    Vishnu is a fierce:


    Mṛga (मृग, “Deer”)


    who is:


    Giriṣṭhāḥ

    girikṣita


    who alone made, by three steps, this spacious and durable aggregate (of the three worlds).

    This aggregate being:


    vimame


    “Whose three imperishable paces, filled with ambrosia, delight (mankind) with sacred food; who verily alone upholds the three elements, and earth and heaven.”

    Trivikrama has the synonym:


    urukramasya



    This is aimed at the Dampati or Couple:


    “We pray (to Viṣṇu) that you may both go to those regions where the many-pointed and wide-spreading rays (of light expand); for here the supreme station of the many-hymned, the showerer (of benefits), shines (with) great (splendour).”


    Vishnu's high place is rather strange:


    ...in the upper region of the sky, the son has an inferior and superior appellation, and a third (name) of father.

    dadhāti putro 'varam param pitur nāma tṛtīyam adhi rocane divaḥ ||


    “Man glorifying (Viṣṇu), tracks two steps of that heaven-beholding (deity), but he apprehends not the third; nor can the soaring-winged birds (pursue it).”


    Then we are given a bundle:


    Ninety and four periodical revolutions: viṣṇu = time, comprising ninety-four periods; the year, two solstices, five seasons, twelve months, twenty-four half months, thirty days, eight watches, and twelve zodiacal signs


    while Vishnu is:


    the ancient, the creator, the recent, the self-born


    This not only sounds important on its own, it matches Trasadasyu's "race", Gairiksita.



    Dirghatamas goes on to the Aswins:


    You, Aśvins, sustain the germ in all moving creatures; you are in the interior of all beings


    himself:


    aucathyo


    one legend:


    the son of Tugra


    himself:

    aucathyam


    perhaps "son of Trita":

    Traitana


    We saw in one area, Sayana commented Dhisana as "Speech", however, Dirghatamas means it similar to Rodasi:



    dhiṣaṇe < dhiṣaṇā

    “heaven and earth.”


    in the interval between whom proceeds the pure and divine Sun

    dhiṣaṇe antar īyate devo devī dharmaṇā sūryaḥ śuciḥ ||





    the father has invested every thing with (visible) forms.

    pitā yat sīm abhi rūpair avāsayat ||


    The son appears to re-birth the parents:


    “The pure and the resolute son of (these) parents, the bearer (of rewards), sanctifies the worlds by his intelligence;. as well as the cow (the earth), and the vigorous bull (the heaven), and daily milks the pellucid milk (of the sky).”

    “He it is, amongst gods (the most divine), amongst (pious) works the most pious, who gave birth to the all-delighting heaven and earth; who measured them both, and, for the sake of holy rites, propped them up with undecaying pillars.”


    There is a section for Rbhus:


    When Tvaṣṭā observed the one ladle become four, he was immediately lost amongst the women.


    which seems to say "anointed":

    ānaje




    ...to evade the indignation of Tvaṣṭā, the Ṛbhus assumed the titles: adhvaryu, hotā and udgatā; and the maiden (mother) propitiated them by different appellations.


    “Indra has caparisoned his horses; the Aśvins have harnessed their car; Bṛhaspati has accepted the omniform (cow); therefore, Ṛbhu, Vibhva and Vāja, go the gods, doers of good deeds, enjoy your sacrificial portion.”

    “Waters are the most excellent said one (of them). Agni is that most excellent, said another; the third declared to many the Earth (to be the most excellent), and thus speaking true things the Ṛbhus divided the ladle.”



    Humans move up:


    Ṛbhus are identified in this and following hymns with the rays of the sun


    then comes the reverse:


    Agni comes (to meet you) from the earth



    He then does a hymn for The Horse. Most of it sounds fairly graphic, like cutting up and cooking a horse's body. However, further study informs us The Horse is The Year, so, this is simply New Year's Eve. It also sounds like adding a Goat to the sacrifice, which, same study will say The Goat is Speech. As said here:


    “This goat, the portion of Puṣan fit for all the gods, is brought first with the fleet courser, to that Tvaṣṭā may prepare him along with the horse, as an acceptable preliminary offering for the (sacrificial) food.”


    such offerings are accompanied by:


    vaṣat


    The Horse Hymn does at least introduce something of its own symbolic nature:


    There is one immolator of the radiant horse, which is Time; there are two that hold him fast

    Time: ṛtuḥ, properly season; by metonymy, time; there are two: day and night, or heaven and earth



    The Horse that is sacrificed merges or blends with the divine steeds:


    Verily at this moment you do not die; nor are you harmed; for you go by auspicious paths to the gods.



    Looking further, there is, indeed, something more than a visceral act:



    “Your great birth, O Horse, is to be glorified; whether first springing from the firmament or from the water inasmuch as you have neighed (auspiciously), for you have the wings of the falcon and the limbs of the deer.”

    “Trita harnessed the horse which was given by yama; Indra first mounted him, and gandharva seized his reins. Vasus, you fabricated the horse from the sun.”

    “You horse are Yama and you are Āditya; you are Trita by a mysterious act; you are associated with Soma. The sages have said there are three bindings of you in heaven.”


    or:

    Yama art thou, O Horse; thou art Aditya; Trita art thou by secret operation.
    Thou art divided thoroughly from Soma. They say thou hast three bonds in heaven.


    I would think it is not only Trita, but, the horse "is" all three of these by secret operation:


    asi yamo asy ādityo arvann asi trito


    Its horn is its mane according to Sayana:


    hiraṇyaśṛṅgo

    fleet as thought, Indra is his inferior (in speed)

    the first who mounted the horse was Indra.


    what the horn does:


    the hairs (of your mane) are tossed in manifold directions; and spread beautiful in the forests.

    The horse is identified with Agni, whose flames consume the forests



    His last hymn at I.164 is going to require the most symbolic Horse one can come up with.




    “They yoke the seven (horses) to the one-wheeled car; one horse, named seven, bears it along; the three-axled wheel is undecaying, never loosened, and in it all these regions of the universe abide.”

    “The seven who preside over this seven-wheeled chariot (are) the seven horses who draw it; seven sisters ride in it together, and in are deposited the seven forms of utterance.”





    where is the soul

    asthanvantam yad anasthā bibharti = liṭ, that which having bone the boneless sustains; the boneless is the prakṛti of the sāṅkhya, or the māyā of the vedāntins, which is formless matter, or spiritual illusion, from which the material and visible world proceeds

    ātmā or cetanā, the thinking principle, although connected with gross and subtle form, is nowhere perceptible as a separate object, and not to be apprehended, either by pupil or teacher


    what is that one alone, who has upheld these six spheres in the form of the unborn?


    The one sole (sun), having three mothers and three fathers

    Three mothers and three fathers: the three worlds, earth, sky, heaven; and the three deities presiding over them: agni, vāyu, sūrya



    Expressions of The Year:


    “The twelve-spoked wheel, of the true (sun) revolves round the heavens, and never (tends) to decay; seven hundred and twenty children in pairs, Agni, abide in it.”

    “They have termed the five-footed, twelve-formed parent, Puriṣin, when in the further hemisphere of the sky; and others have termed it Arpita, when in the hither (portion of the sky); shining in his seven-wheeled car), each (wheel) having six spokes.”


    “He who knows the protector of this (world) as the inferior associated with the superior, and the superior associated with the inferior, he is, as it were, a sage; but who in this world can expound (it); whence is the divine mind in its supremacy engendereḍ ”



    We then get to a part which is commented as Jivatman and Paramatman. The difference is explained as the Jiva has the ability to eat a sweet food:


    pippalaṃ


    whereas another abstains and watches.


    Such a food is followed by the poignant realization of Dirghatamas. He is exactly at the threshhold of Subtle or Life Wind Yoga:


    “Where the smooth-gliding (rays), cognizant (of their duty), distil the perpetual portion of ambrosia (water); there has the lord and steadfast protector all beings consigned me, (though) immature (in wisdom).”



    Exactly. You have to dwell in the place of distilling Amrita, until you are adept at the entire works. For those who don't:


    pitaraṃ na veda ||



    Describing the Gayatri, Traistubh, and Jagati meters:


    “They who know the station of Agni upon the earth; the station of Vāyu that was fabricated from the firmament; and that station of the Sun which is placed in heaven, obtain immortality.”


    More metaphysics:


    the life of the mortal body, cognate with the mortal frame, endures immortal (sustained) by (obsequial) offerings.

    The womb (of all beings) lies between the two uplifted ladles, and in it the parent has deposited the germ (of the fruitfulness) of the daughter.

    Camu

    Camū (चमू).—[feminine] the bottom of the Soma-press


    -mvau ‘the two great receptacles of all living beings’, heaven and earth, [Naighaṇṭuka, commented on by Yāska iii, 30] (cf. [Ṛg-veda iii, 55, 20])


    Soma libations are poured from two kinds of vessels: the camasas, i.e. cups, and the grahās, or saucers (here called camu).



    The Soma ox: ukṣāṇam pṛśnim apacanta: pṛśni = Soma;


    The Sun:


    ...he is the celestial, well-winged Garutmat, for learned priests call one by many names as they speak of Agni, Yama, Mātariśvan.

    suparṇo garutmān


    Soul of the Year:


    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): saṃvatsarātmā kālaḥ

    “The fellies are twelve; the wheel is one; three are the axles; but who knows it? within it are collected 360 (spokes), which are, as it were, moveable and immoveable.”


    “Sarasvatī, that retiring breast, which is the source of delight, with which you bestow all good things, which is the container of wealth, the distributor of riches, the giver of good (fortune); that (bosom) do you lay open at this season for our nourishment.”


    The Sadhya class:


    yatra pūrve sādhyāḥ santi devāḥ ||

    These Mighty Ones attained the height of heaven, there where the Sadhyas, Gods of old, are dwelling.
    Uniform, with the passing days, this water mounts and fails again.

    or:

    where the divinities who are to be propitiated (by sacred rites) abide.

    ending around the male:


    sarasvantam

    cherisher of lakes



    That was one for the Gipper.

    Now, is there a faux pas, did Dirghatamas commit an anachronism by referring to "Purumilha", who would be taken as a "grandson" of Bharadvaja, Purumidha Sauhotra?

    I don't think it works out that way. First of all, it was not obvious as a name in the other translation, but does have a generic meaning as an adverb.

    Purumilhasya:

    abundantly-flowing and spontaneous Soma


    The "Rishi" in Book Four may, in fact, be an aggregate:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): purumīḷahājamīḷahau sauhotrau


    Most of the hymn uses a "we/us" format. There is only one self-reflection, which is plural:


    ājamīḻhāso


    Even when singular, it may not even mean the original guy:


    Ājamīḍha (आजमीढ):—[from āja] m. a descendant of Aja-mīḍha, [Ṛg-veda iv, 44, 6; Āśvalāyana-śrauta-sūtra]


    In other words, that definition seems to respond to the Anukramani being "plural", so the first composer would be Purumilaha, "the Purumilhas".

    They are however named for "someone", not an adverb, who seems to be found in an archaic attribution by Agastya:


    purumīḷhó

    Gotama, Purumilha, Atri bringing oblations all invoke you for protection


    This individual would almost certainly be well prior to descendants filed in Book Four with Gotama's disciple.

    The individual is most likely echoed in VIII.71:


    purumīḻha

    laud Agni for wealth, O Purumīḷha, for other offerers are lauding that far famed one on their own behalf; solicit of Agni a house for (me)Sudīti.


    Although this Rishi is in the influence, it is combined to his first name:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): sudītipurumīḷahau tayorvānyataraḥ


    and this is how he says "human":


    pauruṣeya


    Dirghatamas may correctly be using a proper name, which, noting its placement, is probably exactly like Atri--a pre-Vedic legend or perhaps person, used again *during* the Vedic generations. Just as his uncle, Brhaspati, is named for one.

    Aside from that, I don't really see anything that would prevent him from legitimately being the brother of Bharadvaja, which then means parts of Book One have the antiquity of Book Six.

    The two may have been geographically separated, or, Dirghatamas might be closer to the Kanvas.

    I'm not sure we have any way of knowing how much the "Book" format may have applied to them. If Bharadvaja was the "chief" of anything, then, when he dies, it all depends on his successor to have collected the material and keep it going. But that is not even considered a Gotra. Dirghatamas Aucathya as the composer of what is now known as the Apri Hymn of the Angirases sounds like he would effectively be the lineage head. Even though we have hymns by Uru, Ucathya, and Brhaspati, it is far from enough to qualify as a "lineage". As evidence for the myths and practices to be older than Dirghatamas, yes, of course. But let's say, if Yama was successful, it was not in Arjika country. And the myth cycle responds, so to speak, by sending Usas through an intricate hypostasis, which may not have been spoken of before. "New exploits" of Indra are not very different, particularly once you attach "with Vishnu as your friend". The shift of Usas is even visible in Suditi's hymns.

    Similarly, because the Rbhus "happened", you could say they were necessary for additional commentary on Tvastr. However, this would have been pre-Vedic, already known, before the series of recordings starts.



    Conversely, around Bharadvaja, Usas is at a beginner level. In Book Six, she is mostly mentioned in relation to Indra, or Indrasoma. She gets two brief hymns beginning at VI.64 which is easily a hint:


    Yours are good roads and easy to be traversed in mountains and inaccessible places...


    she distributes wealth by:


    yokṣabhir


    oxen.

    This expression has perhaps been underestimated:


    uṣasaś candrarathāḥ


    Night:


    ūrmyāyāḥ


    Usas provides glory, power, and might:


    vā́jam íṣam ū́rjaṃ


    Bharadvaja knows one feat:


    uṣo adrisāno gotrā gavām aṅgiraso


    ...the Aṅgirasas through your (favour) recover the herd of cattle from the summit of the mountain; by adoration and by prayer they have divided (the rock)...


    Also, towards the end of a long Indra hymn, Samyu says:


    “This Soma made the dawns happily wedded to the sun; this Soma placed the light within the solar orb; this (Soma) has found the threefold ambrosia hidden in heaven in the three bright regions.”


    or:


    The Dawns he wedded to a glorious Consort, and set within the Sun the light that lights him.
    He found in heaven, in the third lucid regions, the threefold Amrta in its close concealment.


    ayam akṛṇod uṣasaḥ supatnīr ayaṃ sūrye adadhāj jyotir antaḥ | ayaṃ tridhātu divi rocaneṣu triteṣu vindad amṛtaṃ nigūḻham ||


    This would probably be the Pusan aspect of the sun; it might also have been understood as Mitravaruna. It might only be her "first marriage", but, nothing says she got divorced. And, what is this kernel, but that which her next husband, the Aswins, are going to learn.


    Sayana takes these lines as:


    Soma as being the source of the energies of Indra, who is the real agent



    That's quite illustrative. Book Six has Usas at her basis, nothing more.

    I would not think that means it would require centuries before Dirghatamas could elaborate it. This would be the "next move"; Book Six contains the physical notice, without the additional tales of Usas. It does not have "Pedu" either. It would make sense to say, Dirghatamas was maybe a little younger than Bharadvaja; it has been said that Divodasa spent forty years clearing Himachal Pradesh. There is ample opportunity for a single person on the "cutting edge" to easily have New Praise for Usas with an additional subject.


    Speaking of which, as such, Vasistha uses the epithet "Madhvis" for the Aswins, which is relatively rare. However it comes in as a refrain with Amahiyu V.75:


    masters of mystic lore, hear my invocation.

    mādhvī mama śrutaṃ havam ||


    Sayana says:

    mādhvī = madhuvidyā veditārau


    It may come from Bharadvaja; Agastya uses it, and it is in Purumilha IV.43.

    It of course makes sense ever since Dadhyan. He must have "augmented the gods".


    This perhaps is visible in Yajur Veda, believed by some to pre-date the Rg Veda. We must be mindful of the translation, such as where we are given "Atharva Veda", Dadhyan says:



    caksuh srotrain



    The translator was not able to derive the common name for:


    visnururukramah



    Bharadvaja names Dadhyan directly, and he is worked in with well-known Rishis, Visvamitra, Vamadeva, Sindhudvipa, and Lopamudra. He comes in with his own work of mostly single-verse hymns of a good quality on various deities. Then, he consists of the beginning of section XXXVII:



    Devasya tva savituh prasave ’svinorbahubhyam
    pusno hastabhyam. A dade narirasi.

    In the yajnic creation of Savita, I invoke and
    welcome you with the arms of Ashvins, currents of
    energy, and the hands of Pushan, Mother Nature’s power
    of nourishment. You are the leader of the world and
    indestructible light of life.



    This area includes a "Yajna Devata", in which sense, it is a benediction to all participants in the Yajna. This begins:


    Young and brilliant first graduate learned ladies,
    I welcome you to-day to the top position of this divine
    assembly of yajna in honour of the earth for the living
    beings.



    And then in similar words by Kanva:


    May the noble ladies, scholars of
    the Law of Truth and the Divine Voice, come and take
    on the yajna for conduct.

    Ladies of the Law, we welcome you to the yajna
    and we request you take it to the top of success in
    Dharmic values.


    Dadhyan returns:


    With the speed of the Ashvins and the generosity
    of Pusha, I season you for the yajna of the divinities of
    the earth. We want you for the yajna, we select you for
    the conduct of the yajna to the top of success for us.



    This is quite well-written, and, again we want to be aware of translations which may overlook something:


    Yamaya tva makhaya tva suryasya tva tapase.
    Devastva savita madhvanaktu prthivyah
    samsprsaspahi. Arcirasi socirasi tapo’si.

    For law and social justice, for yajna and social
    cooperation, and for the discipline of piety in the service
    of the Sun, light of the universe, may the self-effulgent
    Savita, creator and generator of life, bless you with the
    honey-sweets of the earth. Protect yourself and us from
    the pollution of sin. You are the light of brilliance. You
    are the light of purity. You are the tempering fire of the
    austerity of Dharma.





    Dadhyan's material all sounds excellent, and focuses Pusan and the Aswins.

    His Prithvi hymn is very moving, and then this is a verse on Knowledge:


    Madhu madhu madhu.


    There is a section by Atharvan, which seems to have completely disregarded:


    Tvastrmantastva


    Lord
    maker of the world


    Pita no’si pita no bodhi namaste’astu...

    You are our father. As father, enlighten us.


    In the yajnic creation of Savita, universal creator
    and progenitor, I take you unto me with the procreative
    powers of the Ashvins, sun and moon, and the sustaining
    powers of Pusha, the wind.



    and a section from Dirghatamas.

    This is his Aswins as if Surya Savitri has already happened:


    Happy bride, you are bright and joyous like the
    twenty-four syllable verse of the Gayatri metre. Happy
    groom, you are strong and free like the fortyfour syllable
    Trishtubh metre. For the sake of heaven and earth I
    accept you both as wedded couple, and I lead you home
    by the paths of the sky. Like Indra and the Ashvins,
    promote and advance the yajna fire of the sweets of
    honey in life. Inmates of the home, perform yajna in the
    home in honour of the Vasus and rays of the sun which
    bring showers of rain for the earth. This is the voice of
    Divinity, follow it in truth of word and deed.


    It is repeated and unmistakable in multiple hymns that the operative power is Aswins <--> Couple.


    From the internal evidence, Dadhyan talks about himself, without talking about himself. He just gives the subject. Dirghatamas is in the act of transferring and installing it to the Householders.

    That sounds like the Vedic purpose, i. e., moving the secret knowledge of the Rishis, Astrological Yoga, into the hands of what might be called the Solar Couple. Or, Mithuna, the Indian Gemini.

    Just like there probably was a commercialized beverage, Soma, that is not the "real Soma", I get the sense there probably *were* blood sacrifices being committed, so, another impulse was to infiltrate and capture this and render it into "symbolic" meaning. So far, it is Soma Offering that is being demanded; it does not anywhere indicate that it might be *starting* a habit of slaughter. It might take a long time to teach people at home that the Horse is The Year and the Goat is Speech.


    Bharadvaja deals with marriage as "Grhapati", where he says things such as:


    Manly man of a darling wife, lord of brilliance
    and joy, come and, with the inspiring poetry of Veda in
    honour and praise of the Creator, and eliminator of
    suffering, Twashta, drink the elixir of life with me.




    Usana:

    From this
    seventeen-element living life is bom the diversity of
    living forms, of which the seer and visionary expert is
    jamadagni, man of light and lustre.

    Woman of knowledge, virtue and love blest by
    Prajapati, along with you I receive light and vision for
    family and the people.


    He remarks other masters:


    Vishwakarma

    Bharadwaja

    Vishwamitra

    His Aswins hymns all exalt Woman.



    On this topic is the very interesting set:


    (Ashvi-Sarasvati-Indra Devata, Vidarbhi Rshi)


    So must I create light and vitality. So should all
    men and women do like the Ashvinis, powers of health
    and nourishment.



    Translated awkwardly from Prabandhu:


    Somanam svaranam krnuhi brahmanaspate.
    Kaksivantam ya ’ausijah.

    Lord of Eternal knowledge, keen as I am for
    knowledge and learning like a very child of Wisdom,
    shape me into a scholar with a sense of ethical values, a
    persuasive speaker and a teacher and maker of
    rejuvenating tonics.


    If anything, it says make me into Kaksivan Ausija.


    Tracing Atharvan through Vasistha:


    Prohyamdnah soma ’ agato varuna ’ asandya-
    masanno ’ gniragnldhra ’indro havirddhane
    tharvopavahriyamanah.

    Conducted by scientific logic, carried through
    special experiments, and seated in special cars, Soma,
    wealth of energy, power and prosperity, has arrived.
    Varuna, mighty water power, is here. Agni, heat energy,
    is come in special fuels. Indra, electricity, is here potent
    in yajna materials. Atharva, special energy, has arrived.



    Learned and wise scholars of the world, the energy
    stored in particles and radiated in the sunrays, which is a
    preservative power and source of comfort (Vishnu), the
    explosion of energy from the sun (Yama), the cosmic
    energy being created constantly (Vishnu), the vibrations
    of pranic vitality (Vayu), generative particles of matter
    and energy (shukra), and the pure seeds of life (shukra),
    anyone who explores and analyses these is blest with
    the secrets of life’s existence and nourishment.


    That represents the translator's ideas, where mostly just the names are found.


    Bharadvaja speaks what we understand from the Purana:


    Agni, fire/electric energy, present in everything,
    you are the sustainer of the world. The first man of
    highest knowledge of reality, ‘Atharva’, explores you
    on top of the world, collects you and brings you down
    from the sky.

    Then ‘Dadhyang’, man of science and
    technology, and son-like disciple of the man of vision
    and science, ‘Atharva’, further lights and develops you...



    Such translating misses the profound "Puskara" as found with Paramesthin:


    Tvamagne puskaradadhyatharva niramanthata.
    Murdhno visvasya vaghatah.

    Agni (heat and electricity), Atharva, scholar high-
    priest of scientific yajna of energy, churns you out of
    the sky on top of the world to bring down the energy to
    the earth.


    Sankha to Pitrs and Angirases:


    navagva’atharvano
    bhrgavah



    Untranslatable:

    Puronuvakas of Atharva




    Narayana on Rajeshvara:

    Yamaya yamasum atharvabhyo ’vatokam


    For the man of law and order, give the law-maker; for the men of peace and meditation, the protective
    force


    Inexplicably:


    Vatokā (वतोका).—A barren or childless woman; a woman or cow miscarrying from accident, Atharva-veda viii, 6, 9


    This is the only appearance of these words in the book.

    There are several "yamayas", near one of which, Prajapati makes the following odd relationship twice:


    samudraya sisumaro


    Here, the translation sidetracks a vital adherence of the Yamayanas to the Atharvagotra. I am not sure about that expression; perhaps it is considered derived from "Vata" or "Wind". It resembles X.120. This area is really a social contract which is very large. Certainly not saying anything about the Atharvans, other than recommending a king support their existence.


    In the section from Bhargavo Jamadagni Rshi, the beginning says:


    Yamena dattam...


    slipped into the explanation this way:


    Indra, universal
    electric energy, first controls this heat energy given by
    yama (vayu, wind) from three sources, i.e., earth, water
    and sky. Gandharva, the sun, which holds and supports
    the earth holds the reins of the flow


    also:


    By the intrinsic law of your own existence, you
    are Yama, controller and judge; you are Aditya, sun and
    source of light; you are Arvan, moving fast as light.


    there are even a few from:


    Rijishva Rshi




    This text appears to be a "recension", that is, it represents a portion of the Rg Veda, particularly Atharvan and Dadhyan. It has much about marriage, but not that much about Usas. It doesn't do much with Yama. It doesn't seem to understand Kaksivan. It is exemplary for what it is, actually it is really good. For example, it gives a scale from Gotama:


    Vasus, Pracetas, Vishvakarma.


    meaning those with twenty-four, thirty-six, and forty-eight years' experience.


    Sindhudvipa calls them Vasus, Rudras, Adityas.



    This is quite in-depth about Visvakarma, the subject of Three hymns by Shasa:

    Vacaspatim



    is his primary role.

    It makes perfect occult sense.


    Even though there is not much Usas, this could almost be called a "love story", since there are examples such as:


    Patni Devata, Madhuchhanda Rshi

    prajapatirvisvakarma


    There is also Dampati, so, there are at least four kinds of hymns in use that are mostly for couples.


    There are numerous expressions of the male deity, such as Virupa:


    Vishwakarma,
    the Lord Maker of all forms, makes the various forms
    of life in existence.




    Ashvinis Devata, Ushana Rshi

    On the floor of this earth (in this home) I seat
    and consecrate you, lady of the inner world of the heart,
    firm support of the home-life in all directions, mistress
    and presiding presence of all the residences. You are
    the ripples of joy on the streams of life. Indeed you are
    conceived and created by Vishwakarma, the cosmic
    artist.


    Vayu Devata, Vishvakarma Rshi

    May Vishwakarma, lord maker of the world/your
    husband...

    May Vayu, wind and universal energy/your
    husband...



    Another Vayu:


    Lady of light (mistress of the house), may
    Vishwakarma, lord of noble actions/your husband
    consecrate you on top of the sky for the sake of total
    prana, apana and vyana energy (of family life). Receive
    universal light and radiate the light of joy and peace.
    Vayu/your husband, is your lord sustainer. Stay firm
    with that divine power, dear as the breath of life, and be
    steadfast as the light of the sun.


    Visvakarman is in the super-position of being a deity and a person.

    There is not the slightest allusion to Indra having killed him.


    Towards the deity aspect, there are around forty instances of Tvastr. This is not remotely small. You can coerce the Rg Veda to reveal the importance of this deity, but, it takes some coaxing. Here, it is practically in your face.

    One reasonable hypostatic explanation attempt is done by Svastya Atreya:


    The brilliant Indra universally sung and
    celebrated, residing in the three worlds of heaven, earth
    and the sky, wondrous warrior of the chariot, is reached
    through Sarasvati, divine speech and the Ashvinis,
    circuitous powers of nature. Tvashta, divine maker of
    forms, creates the vital creative energy as well as the
    immortal form, senses and the sense organs for Indra
    and vests these in him. May Tvashta, Sarasvati and the
    Ashvinis create the wealth of the world for Indra, blessed
    man of honour and power, and vest the same in him.


    We noticed Atharvan was pretty direct towards Sarasvati, Pusan, and the Aswins.


    Here is another by Uttara Narayana:


    Before the essence of the waters was distilled by
    Vishvakarma for the creation of the earth, the model of
    the universe existed in the eternal mind of the Purusha,
    Prajapati Vishvakarma. Tvashta, the maker-
    manifestation of Purusha, sculpted that form of the
    universe. The origin of the divinity of the human being
    too existed in the eternal mind. (That too Tvashta
    brought into existence.)



    Conversely, there are three copies of this use of the name:


    Agnayah Devata, Vishvarupa Rshi


    Just the Rishi himself, as an author.

    It is unable to provide anything about Visvarupa as Indra vs. Tvastr.

    In fact we have just been given them as aspects of a working unit.

    These hymns hardly seem to have Down A Well or anything about fighting.

    At least half of it seems to be love in the household and in fact Prana.



    This translation has simply done too much of forcing its own conclusions back into the source material, there is "yama and niyama" and "prana and apana" everywhere, that is obviously not in the verses. It unpacks a simple statement on Eleven from Avatsara Kasyapa in multiple ways, and resolves other numerologies on its own. It has already decided the Thirty-three Adityas conclude with Indra and Yajna. So while this YV itself is a "recension", this version--perhaps a bit like Saunaka--has placed the original scripture beneath itself.

    The actual view of Prana that is apparent from the text begins early on with:


    Agni Devata, Sarparajni Kadru Rshi


    The power of Agni is light and energy/electricity
    which creates and produces the circuitous currents-
    going up as prana in the universe as well as in the body,
    and the complementary current going down as apana in
    the body as well as in the universe. This universal energy
    of Agni is a mighty power which is the light of heaven
    and burns in the sun.

    Vak, the speech mode of Agni, dominates thirty
    abodes of life (out of thirty-three) and is used in the service
    of its lord, Agni, for the expression of the light of
    knowledge with which the omniscient and omnipresent
    power illuminates the world.



    Gotama's middle grade:


    pracetastva rudraih

    Pracheta, the man of awareness and illumination, with
    insight into the internal world of the pranas and the spirit...



    There is the idea that prana and apana are the "arms of the Aswins" as in:


    Autathya Dirghatama Rshi

    prsave’svinorbahubhyam


    commented similarly into:


    Agastya Rshi


    And I have scanned it to try to find if it specifically says those two "powers" are the "arms", and I'm not seeing it. Looking also for a certain combination of multiple pranas, this is visible in:



    Agni Devata, Trishira Rshi


    Visvasmai pranayapanaya vyanayodanaya
    pratisthayai caritrdya.



    Vayu Devata, Vishvakarma Rshi

    Visvasmai
    pranayapanaya vyanayodanaya pratisthayai
    caritraya.


    Paramatma Devata, Vasishtha Rshi

    Visvasmai pranaya-
    panaya vyanayodanaya pratisthayai caritraya.


    It's hard for that not to sound "associated" when you're not finding it anywhere else.

    Another fusion from Svastya:


    The doors of divinity, the Ashvinis, nature’s
    powers of health, the physicians, and Sarasvati,
    enlightened woman, open the door, create breath in the
    nose, vigour and virility, and vest it in Indra, man of
    sacrifice and power. For the blessed man, the powers
    of divinity create wealth and bestow it on him to enjoy
    life through yajna.


    The powers called "arms" can however be found self-reflexively spoken by Dadhyan:


    Vagojah sahaujo mayi pranapanau.

    By virtue
    of the divine, the prana and apana energy is my real
    might.






    We have just seen Trisiras "copied" in Yajur Veda, and, this does not stop.

    Although he at first *appears* as a distinct individual in Book Ten, this seems to be fused as one name in the ninth hymn:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): triśirāstvāṣṭraḥ sindhudvīpo vāmbarīṣaḥ


    This, again, is daily Purification by Water. Relatively easy to get familiar with, if you are interested in mantras, at all.

    Sindhudvipa is one person where the Puranas seem to have accurately described the Ikshvakus. For Vedic purposes, Ikshvakus are accepted among the Angirases:


    Purukutsa, Māndhātā, Ambarīṣa, Yuvanāśva, Paurakutsa, Trasaddasyu, Ajamīḍha, Kaṇva, Mudgala, Utathya, Vāmadeva, Asija, Bṛhaduktha, Dīrghatamas and Kakṣivān.


    Ambarisa has also been called:


    1d) A kādraveya nāga.*

    * Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa III. 7. 36; Vāyu-purāṇa 69. 73.


    In Ambarisa's Soma IX.98, there is nothing particularly remarkable, other than what Soma drives away at Dawn is:


    apracetasaḥ


    The destruction of Trisiras Tvastra by Trita and Indra is in X.8.


    Concerning X.9, on the parts beginning in verse with "Bhesaja":


    This and the following ṛcas of the sūkta are repetitions from RV.1. 23, 20-23; in maṇḍala 1, Soma speaks to Kaṇva; in this present maṇḍala, Soma speaks to Āmbarīṣa Sindhudvīpa, a rājā


    I.23 is really Medhatithi, and is essentially a copy of four verses from one hymn to the other.

    Again, we think this is probably backwards. Medhatithi liked what he found, and added a verse to Indra. He changed the meter and extended the first verse with a mirrorlike phrase. We are told the first *half* of the hymn has been kept for daily use. Why would you exclude one of the main guys, who, at the very least, is prominent in the Rg Veda?

    This is the part he took from Sindhudvipa:


    Quote “Soma has declared to me; all medicaments, as well as Agni, the benefactor of the universe, are in the waters.”

    “Waters, bring to perfection, all disease-dispelling medicaments for the good of my body, that I may behold the Sun.”

    “Waters, take away whatever sin has been (found) in me, whether I have (knowingly) done wrong, or have pronounced imprecations (against holy men), or have spoken untruth.”

    “I have this day entered into the waters; we have mingled with their essence. Agni, abiding in the waters approach, and fill me (thus bathed) with vigour.”


    I would say that's pretty extensive on how Medhatithi has absorbed such a tremendous volume, and, when connected to Book Ten, it is beside the procession of Yamayanas.

    There is comparatively little to show us the admission of the Bharatas. There are references to what may be an alternym of their first significant ruler:


    VadhryaSva: VI. 61.1;

    X. 69.1,2,4, 5, 9-12


    DivodAsa is referred to as a descendant of SRnjaya (VI.47.25),
    a son of VadhryaSva (VI.61.1)

    DevavAta is referred to as an ancestor of SRnjaya (IV. 15.4;
    Vl.27.7), DevaSravas (III.23.2, 3) and SudAs (VII.18.22).


    Here, "Asva" is superfluous, as the "vadhry-" stem is that which refers to impotence. I am not sure whether this meets the same criteria as one remembered by Gopavana Atreya:


    Saptavadhri (VIII.73.9) V.78


    who was not, strictly speaking, "impotent" in the medical sense.

    But as far as finding a grand convention of the Bharatas with the fold of Vedic Rishis, that is easy to do.


    Vadhryasva is the donor and Divodasa is the boon in Sarasvati VI.61, which says in verse three:


    Destroy, Sarasvatī, the revilers of the gods, the offspring of the universal deluder, Bṛsaya


    Sayana comments "Brsaya" as a name of Tvastr; this makes little sense. The name has only a single other instance. Gotama says Agnisoma "has slain" offspring of Brsaya. This is between seizing the Panis' cows and revealing the sun. Since this is one story, the person or people killed, ought to be that story.

    Bharadvaja said that Sarasvati and/or Divodasa already destroyed the Panis. She is being called again to destroy a certain kind of person:


    devanido


    which is so archaic, there...are no other examples of it.

    In the verse, "scorns/scoffs at the devas" is the impression given. "Mayin" was taken as "deluder". What comes across is that there were Brsayas at the time of the original Panis, and, there are currently again Brsayas now. Gotama may be the same, or, maybe the next, generation, and his reflection on the defeat of the first Brsayas:



    ...is (well) known to us.


    Maybe Bharadvaja should be speaking past tense, because the next line says she acquired lands that are:


    vājinīvati


    rich in Steeds, or, perhaps, Rbhus.


    However, most of Hymn Sixty-one is present tense, such as for protection in combat. This is the example where Sarasvati is:


    ghorā

    the fierce Sarasvatī, riding in a golden chariot, the destructress of enemies


    And what you will notice is that it refers to "enemies", "adversaries", and so on, many times, and never names them.

    It's not that much of a national war song.

    It does mean that Bharadvaja is aware of Divodasa's father Vadhryasva, which is the family name given for the composer of the Bharatas' Apri Hymn in Book Ten. Sixty-one is the only Sarasvati hymn in the Book. Elsewhere she is mentioned two or three times in a normal manner.

    But, it sounds like she did the same thing as Agnisoma, defeat the Panis. But we have heard Brhaspati was in on this. We heard from Sarama that Rishi Ayasya was coming. None of that affects the chronology that Divodasa appears to be the first major character that the scene sticks to. It is blurry because of more aliases than seem to have been reckoned with. If Vadhryasva is a personal name, then, it should be equivalent to Srnjaya. You might be able to argue they were different. That is a presumption without a clue, whereas the double names, and particularly help out of a dire condition, are characteristic.


    If Bharadvaja just consecrated Vadhryasva to Sarasvati, in the very next hymn he says Vadhrimati was helped by the Aswins. That's after penetrating a mountain.


    As explained by Vasukarna Vasukra:


    “You, Aśvins, extricated Bhujyu from calamity, you gave to Vadhrimatī her son Śyāva; you gave Kamadyu (as a wife) to Vimada; you restored (the lost) Viṣṇāpu to Viśvaka.”


    Unless shown otherwise, we see Vadhrimati after one of the oldest legends, but she is connected to Syava. In turn, he is remembered by Kaksivan as getting a bride from the Aswins. He comes up again in the same line with Hiranyahasta; wherein Syava is called Triply-Mutilated.


    Here again we find what may be the original Bharatas' saga most likely being replicated by Ghosa Kaksivati.

    That is fine, and, it would be more than expected, and, what we don't want to do is conflate them.

    The tellings of "leprosy" are all from one or another of the Brahmanas, the Veda does not specifically say this. It strongly associates the Aswins to those lacking a mate, or whose mate is incapable of offspring. Kaksivan says Ghosa once looked pale. As to whether she was a leper, Ghosa says of herself:


    vidhavām


    "widow"


    which may be figurative, emotional, since we cannot yet say how extensive "growing old in her father's home" may have been. A bit like Cinderella. Kaksivan claimed to have something like ten daughters, but I'm not sure we have much from his direct descendants besides whatever is behind this.


    Kaksivan uses "Vadhrimati", presumably for her. However, Ghosa uses it as an Aswins cure from the past. She may have named her son after this. Bharadvaja is not specific about this:



    šrutáṃ hávaṃ vṛṣaṇā vadhrimatyā́ḥ

    Bulls, heard the calling of the eunuch's consort.

    showerers (of benefits) you heard the invocation of Vadhrimatī


    Simple:


    Vadhri (वध्रि).—a. Castrated, emasculated.

    unmanly (opp. to vṛṣan)



    That there must be a later, second Syava is perfectly clear from him being a donor to Sobhari Kanva at Suvastu in:


    trasadasyordānastutiḥ



    Syava Asva is a catch phrase from Ayasya on the primordial allegory:

    “The protecting (deities) have decorated the heaven with constellations as (men decorate) a brown horse with golden trappings; they established darkness in the night and light in the day; Bṛhaspati fractured the rock and recovered the cows.”


    That combination, such as in "Syavasva Atreya", is more frequent than the short personal name "Syava".

    It is about Pitrs arranging the Naksatras.

    There are other comments about "three injuries" to a person, in the descent of Agni, and we might also suggest lame/blind/impotent with regard to the Aswins.

    Kavasa Ailusa describes Kanva as "syavo". He also uses "son of Nrsad" like Kaksivan.


    Syavasva makes this expression for Pusan as the guide of Paths:

    pūṣā bhavasi deva yāmabhiḥ


    Most frequently, "syava" is a close equivalent for "syama", in the sense of "dark brown". In terms of people, you might guess this would explain the Tamils. Again, the most meaningful "central Indians" or Purus are really Aila Pauravas, i. e. descent of Pururavas, if contrasted with Tamils, or Ayodhyans or Gangetics. If we soon find Irimbithi Kanva, presumably a Tamil name, does it correspond for Kanva Ghaura to be dark brown?




    In the Rg Veda itself, there is almost certainly a Syava II, like there is Trita II, who were named for things that were common knowledge.


    Original Trita slew the "offspring of Brsaya". I am not convinced that "Brsaya" is supposed to be Tvastr; maybe it is a twist on Vrsaya or Rain, such as used by Devapi Arstisena for the elusive Santanu. Maybe not. We may have to leave it as something indefinite.

    There is no way to pinpoint *everything* that is in the Veda, but, we can straighten out what is in it that has not been obvious to scholars. I don't think this would be imposing Yogacara on it, because that seems to be the whole intent from before the beginning.


    Rishi Trita is nowhere dealing with the vanquishing of anything. He provides a modest amount of Agni material, forty-nine verses. We found that he joined Grtsamada. No need to look for Aptyas or Kautsas. Rummaging through his apparatus, Trita uses the following expressions for Agni:


    atithiṃ janānām

    jātaḥ pada iḻāyāḥ


    ...whom Tvaṣṭā, the glorious creator, engendered, who are cognizant of the path, the road of the Pitṛs,...


    Agni has an unusual relationship to Usas:


    ...begetting the damsel, the daughter of the great father...

    ...he afterwards approaches his sister(dawn) like a gallant...



    is transcendental:


    parame vyoman dakṣasya janmann aditer

    Not Being, Being in the highest heaven, in Aditi's bosom and in Daksa's birthplace,
    Is Agni, our first-born of Holy Order, the Milch-cow and the Bull in life's beginning.



    Trita doesn't say anything about Trita. Anyone would be the "third manifestation of Agni" as soon as they start to practice this stuff; that is the basics. That is unremarkable and does not mean the Rishi composer is necessarily the third human being or anything like that.

    Instead, after this row of Agni hymns, Trisiras is going to say something about Trita, that he killed Trisiras. This is rather sly as at first it simply continues as an Agni hymn with certain phrases:


    You are the illuminator of the twin (day and night)

    eṣi tvaṃ yamayor abhavo vibhāvā |




    apāṃ napāj jātavedo

    you are the grandson of the waters, Jātavedas



    using Vayu's steeds:


    niyudbhiḥ



    Trita does something that involves Pitr without naming Indra:


    asya tritaḥ kratunā vavre antar icchan dhītim pitur evaiḥ parasya | sacasyamānaḥ pitror upasthe jāmi bruvāṇa āyudhāni veti ||



    Sayana does not say where this idea comes from:


    Indra gave him water to wash his hands with and a share in the sacrifice, whereby Trita's strength increased


    The Devata changes from Agni to Indra, who then unmistakably slays or destroys:



    triśīrṣāṇaṃ saptaraśmiṃ


    viśvarūpasya



    And I would have to conclude that X.9 is a way of explaining this is a "conversational" hymn, written "as if" Trisiras was talking, but then it really means Trisiras as spoken by Sindhudvipa, who goes on to praise Apah--Water.

    X.10 begins the Yamayanas in a numerologically significant way. This first set of nine is a "nucleus" in that an egregious batch has been portioned by Medhatithi into Book One, perhaps even larger than the sharing in the Apri Hymn. Since he personally quoted it, I would think he had something to do with the scheme in Book Ten as well.


    If things involving Trita are heavily quoted by the Kanvas, and, also, Trita is in Book Eight, this is moderately difficult. You go through a chunk of what appears to be a formulaic Visvedevas piece, and suddenly there is karma with Usas and:


    niṣkaṃ

    srajaṃ


    It is schizophrenic, which is difficult to translate. Sayana puts it awkwardly, but the gist of it is that Trita and the Trtas are people, while the same name, Trita Aptya, means a deity located elsewhere. Several verses are invested in the trait of Duhsvapna or Nightmare. Trita Aptya invokes Usas as the agent to remove and transfer his Nightmare to Trita Aptya.

    Exactly why an epithet of Agni may be appropriate here, is perhaps similar to Kravyad or cremation fire.

    That there is a dumping ground in progress is quite plain:



    To Trita, and to Dvita, Dawn! bear thou the evil dream away.
    As we collect the utmost debt, even the eighth and sixteenth part,

    So unto Aptya we transfer together all the evil dream.
    Now have we conquered and obtained, and from our trespasses are free.



    The sense of it does not seem to be cursing a deity as the *source* of horrors, but, is actually more of a connection to and praise of Usas for the transformative ability.


    Again in terms of "who is speaking", Talageri deleted him from I.105:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): āptyastrita āṅgirasaḥ kutso vā


    The personal name used in the verses is:


    Those which are the seven rays (of the sun), in them is my navel expanded; Trita, the son of the waters, knows that (it is so), and he praises them for his extrication (from the well).


    perhaps five Usas oxen:


    pañcokṣaṇo


    and perhaps a male:


    they drive back the wolf crossing the great waters from the path.

    Vṛka = the moon


    We went through this before. Sayana's comments on this matter appear consistent with the Samhita. Rishi Trita Aptya is Kutsa, who i. e. begins Book Ten, which would be 7 x 7 Agni hymns.

    Sindhudvipa is most likely saying the legend or the deity Trita slew Visvarupa, in conjunction with Indra. In other words, that should probably be an Indragni feat, much as we can turn to another example and find Vishnu. You could probably say it is Indra with Agni of Earth.

    If Book Ten starts with Kutsa and a Varsagira, it may be that Visvarupa is an Ikshvaku legend, which is why it does not seem widely spoken of.

    I am not thinking "Susna" was a person, either, that Rishi Kutsa did not defeat a king or nation of this type. Kutsa and Trita are both cycled names, of Indra's Charioteer and the Third Birth of Agni. "Kutsa Angiras" would not leave you any room to name "people", but, you could start "the Trtas". If so, they perhaps funneled in to the Gartsamadas, where it seems that later Brahmans want to place a claim that is not evident from the Veda, that they "became Saunakas".




    I am not sure what was meant about "niska" and "sraja". Some would take this to mean attacking physical craftsmen in a guild of Tvastr. The "sraja" is a "garland", and so the two are standard wealth or offerings. Curiously, "garlands" also show up in Book Eight in:


    praskaṇvasya dānastutiḥ


    where it would appear that Praskanva is called:


    Dasyave vṛka

    the son of Putakrata



    and, yeah, he was loaded, and gave all this stuff to another Kanva.

    I don't think Book Ten should be construed as a physical attack on Tvastr's craftsmen. It says it was on Tvastr's son, who has a non-human form. The Trita that did this will also magnetize impurities out of your Dream Consciousness. This is obvious from the Rg Veda, whereas Visvarupa or Vrtra specifically made to challenge Indra is not.


    In Yajurveda, Rishi Visvarupa only has a few Agni hymns, beside Kutsa. Sindhudvipa however has an entirely different tone for "Apah":


    Women, cool, pure and generous like holy waters,
    be active and happy and create conjugal peace and joy
    for a happy home for us and yourselves. And we too
    shall be wholly and exclusively with you with all our
    heart and soul.


    He has several items in there, including Sinivali.



    Medhatithi is the "nucleus" of Books One and Nine, and, the idea that he threaded the labyrinth can be supported by that huge quote from Book Ten into I.23. As for the way the back half of Book One appears to be its past:



    In Book One, the Varsagiras are embedded with Kutsa.

    In Book Ten, Kutsa is followed by the next Varsagira.


    The fact that the Rg Veda says Kutsa is Trita makes this easier to see.


    According to Grtsamada in II.11:


    ...you have crushed Vṛtra, the spider-like son of Dānu...

    ...you have slain Viśvarūpa, the son of Tvaṣṭā, through friendship of Trita.

    ...you have annihilated Arbuda...

    Indra, aided by the Aṅgirasa, has whirled round his bolt, as the tun turns round his wheel, and slain Vala.



    It seems that even if he personally knew Rishi Trita, he also knows the legend of original Trita. I don't think he is conflating anything, since "friendship" is the same reason Vishnu helped Indra. We don't say that Rishis named for Vishnu are either the transcendental deity, or his first heroic act. They may invoke/mentally meld with/become him, that is their job. Grtsamada has in fact applied one of the only other instances where we can be pretty sure "Visvarupa" is an individual name. His presentation may be quite close to the actual chain of events.



    PD Navathe takes Visvarupa to be the personal name of the Three-Belied Three- Uddered Bull of Prajapati Visvamitra. This creature resembles the chimera Triple-Bound Bull of Vamadeva (which has only two heads).


    Sayana, and the translators of Yajur Veda, and so on, are all over the road with attempts to classify all these numbers they find. Like with Vishnu and time we just saw.

    "Visvarupa" is a relatively common word in the Rg Veda for its generic meaning, many, multiple forms. I might be able to help them connect the name better, if we look at a rather interesting Triple Bull, Atri's Agni Three-Horned Brhaddivo:


    ā dharṇasir bṛhaddivo rarāṇo viśvebhir gantv omabhir huvānaḥ | gnā vasāna oṣadhīr amṛdhras tridhātuśṛṅgo vṛṣabho vayodhāḥ ||



    It's not just that he has three horns, Atri specifically says they are three Dhatus. The Bull is with the Gnas.


    Moreover, his name reflects the previous hymn with Goddess Brhaddiva:


    dámūnaso apáso yé suhástā vṛ́ṣṇaḥ pátnīr nadyo | vibhvataṣṭā́ḥ
    sárasvatī bṛhaddivótá rākā́ dašasyántīr varivasyantu šubhrā́ḥ


    May the House-friends, the cunning-handed Artists, may the Steer's Wives, the streams carved out by Vibhvan,
    And may the fair Ones honour and befriend us, Sarasvati, Brhaddiva, and Raka


    That is suggestive of where we might find Ila and Bharati, but what sounds like the bull's female half is at least considered to be a cohort of Sarasvati.


    But this is in even the previous hymn as Brhaddiva Urvasi:


    May Ila, Mother of the herds of cattle, and Urvasi with all the streams accept us;
    May Urvasi in lofty heaven accepting, as she partakes the oblation of the living,


    abhí na íḷā yūthásya mātā́ smán nadī́bhir urvášī vā gṛṇātu
    urvášī vā bṛhaddivā́ gṛṇānā́bhyūrṇvānā́ prabhṛthásyāyóḥ



    Urvasi and the Nadis, Urvasi Brhaddiva.

    Let's see. We were not taught anything about a Sky Goddess, usually, it would be the Bull of Heaven, something like this, and but now we have it in conjunction with a Celestial Nymph.


    Finally this re-convenes through the innocuous-sounding Gaya Plata in Mata Brhaddiva and Pitr Tvastr:


    uta mātā bṛhaddivā śṛṇotu nas tvaṣṭā devebhir janibhiḥ pitā vacaḥ | ṛbhukṣā vājo rathaspatir bhago raṇvaḥ śaṃsaḥ śaśamānasya pātu naḥ ||


    “May the bright shining mother (of the gods) hear us; may father Tvaṣṭā, with the gods, and their wives, (hear our) words; may Ṛbhukṣan, Vāja, Rathaspati, Bhaga, may the joyous adorable (company of the Maruts) protect us their praisers.


    X.120 is not by a female:

    bṛhaddivo atharvāvocat

    the great Bṛhaddiva, son of Atharvan


    who is clearly averse to Seven Danavas and Yatudhana "sorcerors".


    Brhaddiva, the foremost of light-winners, repeats these holy prayers, this strength of Indra.
    He rules the great self-luminous fold of cattle, and all the doors of light hath he thrown open.

    Thus hath Brhaddiva, the great Atharvan, spoken to Indra as himself in person.
    The spotless Sisters, they who are his Mothers, with power exalt him and impel him onward.



    The combination doesn't say "son", it says "spoken". The Anukramani infers sonship.

    As an ability or office that may be transferred, then, the son can easily become the next/new Atharvan. In Book Six we are already hosting an Atharvan Gotra. This Rishi has certainly spoken from the view of accomplishment that admittedly is not held by Bharadvaja and others, at least up to a point in their careers.


    So there was a pre-Vedic event we might call Cave Allegory, followed by:


    Arjika --> Usas

    Arbuda --> Kadru


    Then we are told in the time of Trasadasyu, that Syavasa names the largest amount of western rivers, and so their concern must be Afghanistan. Theoretically:


    ...according to SAyaNas interpretation of V.54.14,
    SyAvASva was himself a Bharata.


    Actually, here, the presence of Bharataya has been ignored by Sayana and the translator.


    If it is likely that Atri was involved with the rise of Trayaruna and Trasadasyu, then, the highly influential Trasadasyu, after his accomplishment, is a benefactor of two younger Rishis, Sobhari Kanva and Syavasva Atreya, who has more verses than Atri.


    Syavasva has probably one of the most personal travel tales in the Rg Veda. He definitely goes somewhere:


    “Young and affable, she has explained to me, Śyāvāśva, the road, and two ruddy horses have borne me to the valiant and renowned Purumīḷha.”

    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): purumīḷaho vaidadaśviḥ


    It would be meaningful for Book Eight to collect from the non-Kanvas:


    Syavasva, Trita Aptya, Suditi Purumilha.


    Here is certainly "a Purumilha" other than the vague aggregate we have also found.




    IX.58 is patronage to Avatsara Kasyapa; here, Sayana says:


    Dhvasra and Puruṣanti: two kings who conferred great wealth on Taranta and Purumiḷha, to ṛṣis of the family of Vidadaśvin



    Nothing to conclude they are Bharatas. Syavasva is the next recipient. Where was he going?


    ‘Ratha’ seems to be a popular prefix in the names of Darbhyas (Rathaprota, Rathaviti of RV 5.61 who gives away his daughter to Syavasva Atreya in marriage) and thus it would not be surprising if there was indeed an older Rathaprota. Notably, the Yajur Veda, in both the Taittiriya and Vajasaneya recensions (VS 15.17, TS 4.4.3), speak of “Rathaprota and Asamaratha” together as overlords in a ritual context. It is possible that Asamaratha stands for Asamati Rathapraustha. Although, this is not clinching evidence, the correspondences strongly imply a connection between Asamati and the Darbhyas. The Darbhyas are descendants of the Iksvakava who became Angirasa Brahmanas but continued to be rulers in their own right.


    Some Puranas suggest that Darbhyas are at the time of Lopamudra around Maharastra, but, we have also found in the Tamil Kausitiki Brahmana that there is the Atharvan Gotra:


    Kesin Darbhya


    Physically, the Gangetic plain has a corridor to Orissa and Tamil Nadu. Therefor there could be trade routes of unsurpassing antiquity.


    The donors to Avatsara were known to Rishi Kutsa when the Aswins:


    ...protected Kutsa, the son of Arjuna, as well as Turviti, Dhabhiti, Dhvasant, and Puruśanti


    So, we don't understand Sayana's comment. Purusanti of the Aswins lineage donated thousands to Avatsara. Purumilha was heavily involved with Syavasva, whose story appears to be the *opposite* of what is claimed, because his field of activity was *inside* India.

    He has united the magnitude of Trasadasyu with, something, of south India.

    Having a named descendant, Andhigu is also recorded in Sama Veda a couple of times. He is in IX.108 in a portrayal with Samvarana Manu that sounds important, however this strange assembly speaks less than the majority of Atreya authorship across the Rg Veda. It's not Atri, it's Syavasva. And then it is not really Syavasva's son.

    The Trasadasyu effect has already been praised by Vamadeva. We suspect that after Syavasva, there is not a whole lot more to add.


    Puzzlingly, the Puranas have not delved into the Triple Bull or Trivrsna, whose lineage paralleled the Varsagiras. There is a minor attempt to equate the name to:


    Traidhatva


    which is further:

    Tridhanvan


    which is meaningful towards the Tandin school of Sama Veda.


    The incident between Trayaruna and Vrsa results in that resurrection known as Varsa Saman.

    Nearest thing to a relic of the Varsagiras that I have found.


    Here is another compression.

    "Brhaddiva" is obviously extraordinarily significant to the Triple Bull as discussed by Atri. The very existence of the name has been traced in a similar study on VI.61 from Sarma 2019:


    Sarasvatī is the giver of pleasure which is indicated by the term mayobhuvaḥ[10] which is applied to Iḍā, Sarasvatī and Māhī (Bhāratī).

    Sāyaṇācārya explains the term as,

    sukhotpādikaḥ and sukhasya bhavavitryaḥ.


    Other prominent titles of Sarasvati are:


    vājinivatī or vājinī


    citations given for "mayobhuvah":

    1.13.9; 5.5.8


    are on the Kanvas' Apri Hymn by Medhatithi, and correspondingly the Apri Hymn of Vasusruta Atreya.


    Considering this has only a handful of other uses in the Rg Veda, most notably it forms line one of Sindhudvipa on Waters.


    Now if we take this universally recognized standard of copying:


    The AprI stanzas 3.4.8-11 = 7.2.8-11
    are ascribed in the third book to ViSvAmitra GAthina, in the seventh
    book to VasiSTha MaitrAvaruNI.


    we can see Medhatithi has "un-copied" it due to an influence by Sindhudvipa, reinforced by heavily copying him into I.23.



    This is quintessential, since the Apri Hymn "style" is used in all Gotras.

    If you think in the most basic linear order of the more than thousand hymns, the thirteenth is copying Sindhudvipa into the Apri system and breaking an established quote, and the twenty-third copies Sindhudvipa as the "missing half" of daily purification by water.

    The Apri Hymn itself is not quite the primordial lesson, but is a conventional way of receiving deities as guests.

    It means you would have a set of fires and altar aligned to the east and so forth. It is a geometric but not symmetric design.

    If we look at this basic layout as passed through the hands of certain patriarchs, it is rather telling.


    I'm guessing Dirghatamas did not know he was making an "Apri Hymn" to identify a "Gotra". His does not conform to the "style", because it has thirteen verses; all the others have eleven. Here, in I.142, we found that Bharati has a unique starting condition before being iterated into The Three, she is:


    marutsu bhāratī


    And then in the Bharatas' X.70, she is not even named at all:

    ghṛtapadī


    The Three are basically just named in the minor lineages:


    Agastya

    Asita Kasyapa



    In other small branches, Grtsamada is a much better writer.

    Rama X.110 is a bit on the lively side.

    Between them, nothing is quite said that would not be anticipated as a fitting adjective.


    The first "major copy" is shared by the Visvamitra and Vasistha lineages, who say:


    Bharati, associated with the Bharatis; Iḷā with gods and men; and Agni and Sarasvatī with the Sārasvata



    Medhatithi and the Atreyas have changed this "identification" of classes or locations (?) of people, into a more affable role of what goddesses do. Bring happiness.

    He uses an expression from the first line of Sindhudvipa--Apah to do this.

    In so doing he gives Tvastr the personalization:


    Agriya viśvarūpam


    the earliest born, the wearer of all forms at will:
    May he be ours and ours alone.


    Among the few uses of this term, it is self-reflexive to Brhaddiva Atharvana:


    agriyáḥ svarṣā́ḥ

    the foremost of light-winners



    Having seen Atri conjoin Urvasi--Brhaddiva, there is of course another context, the beginning of the Aila Pauravas. We ignored this because of the supposed "lateness" of the hymn X.95. It cannot be specified, since "Pururavas and Urvasi" is a "conversational" hymn, so, just like Indra Vaikuntha or Agni Saucika, we don't think the "speaker" identifies any human Rishi.


    Sticking to what is in the hymn, there is a self-reflexive moment when Urvasi speaks:


    If, Uṣas, this Ūrvaśī, offering food and wealth to her father-in-law...


    The translator has replaced "Urvasi" back in where the phrase only has Usas:


    sā vasu dadhatī śvaśurāya vaya uṣo


    what she was doing at home was:


    being delighted night and day by his embraces.

    yasmiñ cākan divā naktaṃ śnathitā vaitasena ||


    Śnathita (श्नथित):—[from śnath] mfn. pierced, transfixed


    Vaitasa (वैतस): m. (met.) the penis, [Atharva-veda]




    three times a day:


    śnathayo vaitasenota


    Pururavas names a group of maidens who appear along with:


    ...the swift-moving(Ūrvaśi who arrived)


    where again the only name stated is:


    caraṇyuḥ


    this group is:

    añjayo 'ruṇayo




    The Gnas arrive:


    (Ūrvaśī). As soon as he was born the wives (of the gods) surrounded him, the spontaneously flowing rivers nourished him, for the gods reared you, Purūravā, for a mighty conflict, for the slaughter of the Dasyus.


    When, becoming their companion, (Purūravā) the mortal associated with these immortal (nymphs) who had abandoned their bodies, they fled from me like a timid doe


    "abandoned bodies":


    tarasantī na bhujyus


    Urvasi falls as a thunderbolt:


    vidyun na yā patantī davidyod


    We noticed she was commented twice into her own hymn, where she was Usas and Saranyu, the Daughter and Wife of the Sun.


    Here we do get one good reason why "the Vasisthas" were Ikshvaku priests prior to the Vedic recording, as Pururavas says self-reflexively:


    I, Vasiṣṭha, bring under subjection Ūrvaśī who fills the firmament (with lustre) and measures out the rain.

    Vasiṣṭha: an epithet, pre-eminently the giver of dwellings


    and yet again, what Urvasi is doing in the Antariksa is overlooked:


    vimānīm


    So when this increments further to Brhaddiva sounding like goddess Bharati, the way I take this is that Bharati also has an aspect like terrestrial Agni. Ila, the mother of Pururavas, is a bit more of the fertility and abundance of nature. Bharati is similar, but with the Dharmic qualities of humanity manifesting through it.

    Because that extends into Yoga, Bharati is a fiery tantric goddess of the Chakrasamvara system.



    Medhatithi has done something to the Apri Hymn, that doesn't necessarily erase any of the theology of the goddesses, but, taps Sindhudvipa's vocabulary to give them a purpose for good feelings. The slightly unusual term is also seen here. At the very beginning, Pururavas faults not speaking for not bringing Mayas.


    Seeking it is the first question of Gaya Plata.

    A resolution is offered at the beginning of Atri's Visvedeva:

    asuro mayobhuḥ ||


    which is a power held by:


    pṛṣadyoniḥ pañcahotā


    Sayana takes this as Vayu and the pranas; in the other translation:


    the Five Priests' Lord, dwelling in oblations, bliss-giving Asura



    Pṛṣadyoni (पृषद्योनि):—[=pṛṣad-yoni] [from pṛṣad > pṛṣ] (pṛ) mfn. ([probably]) = pṛśni-garbha


    the final verse also grants the power to the Aswins.


    Here we reach the predicament that Vedic "Happiness" went obsolete and is not found in any later literature.


    The same expression is used by Agastya:


    uta no 'hir budhnyo mayas

    Ahirbudhnya: or, ahir who is also budhnya; ahi and budhna = antarikṣa; the compound implies a divinity presiding over the firmament


    It is attributed to Aditi by Irimbitha Kanva.

    It begins the Third Verse of Book Three.


    The clearest statement on it being a Visvedeva quality is by Gaya Plata:


    no other bestower of happiness exists except them



    Hence it is Asura "One Power", emanating through any of those able to wield this power.


    This is where we found Brhaddiva as the counterpart of Tvastr. Among his other invocations:


    To Narasamsa and to Pusan I sing forth, unconcealable Agni kindied by the Gods.
    To Sun and Moon, two Moons, to Yama in the heaven, to Trita, Vata, Dawn, Night, and the Atvins Twain.


    aja ekapāt:

    Bṛhaspati is magnified with sacred hymns; Aja, walking alone, is magnified with solemn invocations and prayers; may Ahirbudhnya hear us at the season of invocation.”


    Kṛśānu: the gandharva so named; the archers are the gandharvas accompanying him; they are the guardians, of the Soma;

    Tiṣya: nakṣatra, a heavenly-archer like Kṛśānu?

    dyāvāpṛthivī mātarā mahī devī



    The Rg Veda does not name a full set of Adityas or Naksatras; it is not a lesson book. This is one of the few mentions of an individual Naksatra, which is also used by Syavasva.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Dirghatamas and lineages (2 of 2)


    We are finding reversed stories particularly of Tvastr and Usas. Once squeezed out like a tube of toothpaste, I believe we will be able to mirror it back in close to the real order.


    Usas has been through a dazzling metamorphosis, where, unlike the Aswins, she was released from the "Vala event". This *may* be allegorical for Astronomy as a whole.

    The victory, over Vala, reads differently in different contexts. Areas which give a brief mention and their attributions are:


    Bharadvaja: Indra

    Savya: Indra

    Anga Aurava: Indra

    desiring to give the dawns to Kutsa

    Nodhas: Indra with Navagvas and Dasagvas


    Nabhanedistha: New Year's Eve

    Vamadeva: Brhaspati

    Parasara: Agni


    It sounds contradictory.

    But Parasara for example is trying to show Agni as the driving force in all these things.


    The story is expanded in the Rg Veda by:


    Sarama: Ghora Angirases, Navagvas, Ayasya, Brhaspati

    Ayasya: Brhaspati or Brahmanaspati and Indra (two hymns)


    Sayana winds up commenting this:


    Indra; ie., Bṛhaspati


    in the rescue of:

    soṣām avindat sa svaḥ so agniṃ so arkeṇa


    Ayasya gives the sense that Brhaspati, the person, successfully merged with Indra, the deity, to defeat Vala, and continued on to heavenly realms. This by far seems to be the most extensive treatment of it.


    We do not find "Vala" automatically re-spelled as "Bala", let alone "Bala the Asura". In fact he at first calls the Angirases "sons of Asura":


    putrā́so ásurasya vīrā́ḥ


    who, in contrast to Brhaspati, have the voices of Swans:


    haṃsair


    Sayana's best guess:

    Vala: liṭ, the ocean, i.e. Vala in the form of a cloud


    This makes perfect sense understood as the "eldest Sages":


    the Ādityas, devising a road to immortality; instituted all (the sacred rites)


    The cows were caught in:


    bonds of falsehood

    three he made apparent

    ...he cut off three from him who held the waters


    discovering:

    the dawn, the Sun, the cow, the lightning


    Usas is not a main character, but is named first, apart from Surya or Arka as the sun. This cannot have any physical meaning, so, we are immediately required to reckon various psychological and theological properties of solar energy. The Veda already knows that average mortal man can count sunrises and watch the passing of months. It's not that condescending. It's rather profound, what, exactly, is Brhaspati finding besides "stolen cows"?


    I think it is posing this riddle as the first half of the hymn, and then there are only a couple of verses where Indra defeats Vala. And whereas we find these spots where Vala or the Panis are broken, destroyed, or slain, they just come back into the hymns in order to lament and weep for the loss of the cattle.


    The attention returns to the principal actor and a questionable translation:


    Brhaspati with wild boars strong and mighty

    bráhmaṇas pátir vṛ́ṣabhir varā́hair



    His relation to Indra is:


    svayúgbhiḥ

    his self-yoked (ally)



    it seems that "food" is an over-simplification on several occasions:


    food of various kinds

    vājam asanad viśvarūpam


    As well as Thunder, Brhaspati gains the rare epithet of Lion--Simha:


    In our assembly with auspicious praises exalting him who roareth like a lion,
    May we, in every fight where heroes conquer, rejoice in strong Brhaspati the Victor.

    bṛ́haspátiṃ vṛ́ṣaṇaṃ


    again is this "food":


    vayodhai

    energy (both bodily and mental)


    The final verse is a slightly unusual twist in that it suddenly reverts to:

    Indra

    Arbuda the watery monster, Slain Ahi


    It gives the appearance that Ayasya is handling the "discovery" of Usas in Arbuda, and then it is her personal tale that is rolled out in Arjika.



    Ayasya's second version in X.68 does not concern Indra, but says of Brhaspati:


    ...as Bhaga, brought in Aryaman among us


    He has actually employed a Meteor:


    ulkā́m iva dyóḥ


    as well as:


    So from the rock Brhaspati forced the cattle, and cleft the earth's skin as it were with water.

    ...with fiery lightnings...


    against:


    the cloud of Vala

    valásyābhrám


    Part of his discovery is a:


    secret name borne by the lowing cattle

    nā́ma svarī́ṇāṃ sádane gúhā yát



    also:

    rock-imprisoned sweetness

    madhu


    He is said to be "responsible" for what sounds more like an Astronomical Conjunction of Sun and Moon at Dawn:


    sūryāmāsā mitha uccarātaḥ ||


    and towards the end we are praising:


    námo abhriyā́ya

    the Cloud God


    This one concentrates on Brhaspati's transference of cattle to people.

    Nothing in X.67-8 has anything to do with Tvastr or Vrtra, etc.

    It would not make any sense unless Angirases and Navagvas were already meaningful.

    It may make sense as an early "Indra event" which appears to be the stacking subject around which most of the older hymns are based.



    Again turning to Yajur Veda, we find the association as described by Sankha [Yamayana]:


    Angiraso nah pitaro navagva’atharvano
    bhrgavah somyasah.


    And while it is excellent for preserving something from Rishi Atharvana, he has nothing historical to say, he praises Ishvara and then Visvedevas similar to an Apri Hymn. He *does* begin with something that appears to work with Atri's Triple Bull:


    pita no bodhi namaste’astu

    Tvastrmantastva



    It is a pretty good quality set, including a verse that sounds like it goes right into an Apri:


    Ida ’ehyadita ’ehi sarasvatyehi. Asavehyasave
    hyasavehi.



    But i. e. he has no "event". He confirms nothing. He has the recognition of deities and that's about it.

    The whole Book possibly has only *one* "Vala":



    Ashvi-Sarasvati-Indra Devata, Vidarbhi Rshi

    Yamasvina sarasvati havisendramavardhayan.
    Sa bibheda valam magham namucavasure saca.

    Indra, man of power and glory, whom the
    Ashvinis, masters of health and vitality, and Sarasvati,
    lady of knowledge and divine speech, together, created
    and reared with holy foods and drinks, could surely
    break through the wondrous vitalities of nature hidden
    in the heavenly waters of space.


    Those translators don't even use the name, it is just over-written by their conclusion. The other conclusions at least are named. Except for "Yama" at the beginning. As we see, it does not have "masters of health and vitality", and this marginal style of writing is less interesting than, who is Vidarbhi?


    Throughout the Rg Veda Books, there are only a handful of "Valas", and over three hundred "Vrtras", where of course "Vrtrahan" becomes standard for "Indra". Book Six only mentions Vala a couple of times:


    Angirases here who speak of Vala.


    or possibly with Usana in VI.39.



    Vrtra as an accomplished feat of Indra is found as readily as VI.16 which is quintessential for Bharadvaja:



    Agni, Atharvan brought thee forth, by rubbing, from the lotus-flower [púṣkarād]

    Thee. Vrtra's slayer, breaker down of castles, hath Atharvan's son,
    Dadhyac the Rsi, lighted up.

    The hero Pathya kindled thee the Dasyus'. most destructive foe


    Agni, the Bharata, hath been sought, the Vrtra-slayer, marked of all,
    Yea, Divodasa's Hero Lord. [sátpatiḥ]


    He is distanced because he invokes again for the present time of Divodasa:


    May Agni slay the Vrtras






    YV Bharadvaja on Dadhyan:


    Vrtrahanarh purandaram.


    Well, Dadhyan "augments the gods": the Aswins become ministers of Amrita thanks to him.

    Conversely, the Vala and Brhaspati episode deals with Usas rather than the Aswins.




    YV is replete with "vrtrahan" plainly as a title, and absent any echoes of the battle. It regularly uses "vrtras" as "adversaries" in the present moment, i. e., Indra is supposed to keep coming out and defeating vrtras.


    Vrtra is perhaps "pre-Vedic", because, even though Dadhyan is present, he does not give the story, which is eked out by descendants. Brhaspati and Vala are current or in recent memory as more of a witness account.

    If we try to track down a starting point of the "Vrtra event", this is really difficult, since out of numerous examples, all the times I remember are as a past-tense epithet or tribute. Chasing it to possible sources, we find this relationship swap from Vasukarna Vasukra in X.65:


    bṛ́haspátiṃ vṛtrakhādáṃ sumedhásam indriyáṃ sómaṃ



    Similar Agni Vrtrahan in X.80.


    Clearly the living definition of the Vadhryasvas in X.69:


    This Agni of Vadhryasva, Vrtra-slayer

    ayám agnír vadhryašvásya vṛtrahā́


    Sumitra is personally emulating a hero:


    All treasures hast thou won, of plains and mountains, and quelled the Dasas' and Aryas' hatred.
    Like the bold hero Cyavana, O Agni, mayst thou subdue the men who long for battle.










    The plainest pre-Vedic legend is probably the Rbhus, who spoke truths on the excellences of Waters, Agni, and Earth, which is a plausible basis for something like a Bharatas--Vadhryasvas lineage to emphasize Agni, and there is something similar for Sarasvati, and so on. This view is emphasizing Agni as the root-forces gathered and used by Indra, while the previous hymn sounds like a "recent memory" of Brhaspati overcoming a "current vrtra".


    The likelihood of the Bharatas referring to the *initial* event is perhaps expressed by Suvedas Sairisi in X.147:


    I TRUST in thy first wrathful deed, O Indra, when thou slewest Vrtra and didst work to profit man;
    What time the two world-halves fell short of thee in might, and the earth trembled at thy force, O Thunder-armed.

    Thou with thy magic powers didst rend the conjurer Vrtra, O Blameless One, with heart that longed for fame.
    Heroes elect thee when they battle for the prey, thee in all sacrifices worthy of renown.


    So if "Cyavana" is rendered into one of the oldest possible figures in legend, the only possible Vedic Rishi is probably more aptly named Bhrgu Varuni, called "Mathita" by the Yamayanas:


    A son of Bharatāgni.*

    * Vāyu-purāṇa 29. 8.


    and "Cyavana" by the Bhargavas.


    This has limited possibilities, as there is the verb "mathita" as used by Pragatha Kanva:


    Soma, kindle me like the fire ignited by attrition


    which is the vocabulary of Visvamitra:


    “Mātariśvan therefore brought for the gods from afar, Agni, hiding of himself, and generated by attrition, as (a father brings back) a fugitive (son).”


    which is why there was another removal from the Anukramani at III.23:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): devaśravā devavātaśca bhāratī


    where the two are simultaneous brothers, the one reciting praises while the other:


    His parents: the two pieces of stick that have been rubbed together by Devavāta


    So, no, those are not sequential generations.


    We cannot tell if the name should be shared with one of the most important of all, X.17:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): devaśravā yāmāyanaḥ

    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): saraṇyūḥ


    “Tvaṣṭā celebrates the marriage of his daughter; therefore, the whole world is assembled; but the mother of Yama, the newly-married wife of the mighty Vivasvat, disappeared.”


    Whereas "Bhrgu" in his hymn makes the only reference in Book Ten to Saranyu's attribute Samjna:


    I call upon their herdsman, him who knoweth well their coming nigh...


    It makes a distinction; Usas and Saranyu both work with Atri's Brhaddiva, and they are not exactly the same.


    From a similar analysis of Vrtra:


    Quote When I first came across the Vrtra myth in Mandala VI, based on the content, I treated it as a subject by itself. However, as I read more material from other Mandalas, especially Mandala IV – the Vamadeva family book, it is now apparent that the myth surrounding the slaying of the dragon Vrtra by Indra and the myth surrounding the birth of Indra are inextricably interwoven. It is best therefore to deal with the two subjects collectively and under the aegis of the Vrtra myth.

    Deconstructing and correctly interpreting this myth has always been a challenge and no one view conclusively explains or is more convincing than any other.

    Questions abound and the differing answers proposed are compelling in themselves and collectively.

    According to Wiki, the most explanatory version is IV.18. It's not. This is about the birth of Vamadeva. It has Aditi casting off Indra's Vrtra-brahmanicide into the Waters as foam, before being asked to act again at the end. It names an additional enemy, Vyamsa, for whom we would have to cross-reference something like III.34:


    vyaṃsam uśadhag vaneṣv

    he slew the mutilated (demon lurking) in the woods, and made manifest the (stolen) kine (that had been hidden) in the night.


    The most prominent Vrtra of Book Four is probably with Trasadasyu Ardhadeva.


    I.32 and I.124 are also suggested.

    We know 124 would be later or compounded; moreover, nothing is there. I.32 is from Hiranyastupa Angiras, who appears to be the "elder" of the "nucleus" of Books One and Nine. This may likely be the primordial telling. The components we find shortly after allowing the subject to be introduced as Ahi:


    tvaṣṭāsmai vajraṃ

    trikadrukeṣv

    the trikadrukas, three sacrifices termed jyotiṣ, gauḥ and āyu


    “Inasmuch, Indra, as you have divided the first-born of the clouds, you have destroyed the delusions of the deluders, and then engendering the sun, the dawn, the firmament, you have not left an enemy (to oppose you).”

    We are given Ahi's "synonyms" as the blow is struck:


    ahan vṛtraṃ vṛtrataraṃ vyaṃsam


    consequently:


    like one emasculated who pretends to virility; then Vṛtra, mutilated of many members, slept.

    vṛṣṇo vadhriḥ pratimānam bubhūṣan purutrā vṛtro aśayad vyastaḥ ||


    when the nameless body washes away:


    The waters, that delight the minds (of men), flow over him


    “The mother of Vṛtra was bending over her son, when Indra struck her nether part with his shaft; so the mother was above and the son underneath, and Dānu slept (with her son), like a cow with its calf.”


    they sleep in:

    dīrghaṃ tama


    It is as if a rescue of Waters and Cows:


    “The waters, the wives of the destroyer, guarded by Ahi, stood obstructed, like the cows by Paṇis; but by laying Vṛtra, Indra set open the cave that had confined them.”



    In order for Rishi Hiranyastupa to have the most pristine version of this tale, it is not necessary for him to have been the first one to have ever heard of it. That however is most like the telling of an event, compared to Book Six, where it is more like a theological requisite.


    In fact, this set by Hiranyastupa is in coherent order. Like Bharadvaja, his first hymn reverences Agni as the first Rishi:


    agne prathamo aṅgirā ṛṣir

    In your rite the wise, the all-discerning, the bright-weaponed Maruts were engendered.


    agne prathamo aṅgirastamaḥ kavir

    dvimātā

    announced heaven to Manu; you have more than requited Purūravas

    vedā vaṣaṭkṛtim

    viśpatim

    of the mortal Nahuṣa; they made Iḷā, the instructress of Manu, when the son of my father was born.


    Manu, and Aṅgiras, and Yayāti, and others of old


    That is not surprising or why all lineages seem to concatenate into a "symbolic" figurehead.



    He has inveigled some of those.


    So there is First Rishi Agni followed by First Indra event.

    After "Indra vs. Vrtra" is "Indra II vs. the Dasyus" and:


    Sanakas: followers of Vṛtra who are ayajvānaḥ, non-sacrificers

    Śanaka (शनक):—m. (cf. śaṇaka) Name of a son of Śambara, [Harivaṃśa]


    No one else has heard of them.

    The contenders are:

    Kṣitayaḥ navagvāḥ = men whose practices were commendable


    The difference between the two is like:


    vṛṣāyudho na vadhrayo


    Again it appears that "navagva" is in use for "Indra II", but not in the first scene.

    The first episode is in the time of Dadhyan and the Trikadruka days, through which, he perhaps becomes "navagva Dadhyan" and this is a group of Angirases by the next act. This is notable because Trikadruka is not in Book Six. Here we have confirmed it cannot be any different than the root of the Navagvas' practice.





    Susna with his horn he cut to pieces


    Kutsa is a ṛṣi, a founder of a gotra, a religious family; Daśadyuḥ is also a ṛṣi and a warrior; Śvaitreya or Śvitrya is the son of mother Śvitra.

    This is evident from the form on this line:

    chvaitreyo


    which in the next verse is the mother:


    chvitryaṃ

    Svitra's mild steer, O Maghavan thou helpest in combat for the land, mid Tugra's houses.
    Long stood they there before the task was ended: thou wast the master of the foemen's treasure.

    He goes next to the Aswins with limited rescues. A few remarks narrow down his epoch:


    Vena, the beloved of Soma

    The daughter of the sun has ascended your three-wheeled car.

    give to my son the prosperity of Śamyu



    ā nāsatyā tribhir ekādaśair



    Taking him to be roughly contemporaneous with Samyu puts him in a rather early, but not penultimate, position. Similarly, he mentions Tugra without Bhujyu. No one remembers some of the things he is talking about. Sayana is probably wrong that he is not talking about Rishi Kutsa. Kutsa appears in an Indra II hymn. If it does mean a person, original Kutsa was prior to/widely known by the older Rishis. I do not think he is in the oldest possible material.


    It may be he has used a proper name as from the Puranas:


    Vena (वेन).—A son of Anga

    Where interestingly in IX.85:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): veno bhārgavaḥ

    In the heaven: nāke = free from pain, the place called havirdhāna


    Obviously remembered by Tanva Parthya:


    Duśīma, Pṛthavāna, Vena, the mighty Rāma


    and Sasakarna Kanva:


    Kakṣīvat praied you, when the ṛṣi Vyaśva, when Dīrghatamas, or Pṛthin, the son of Vena


    As a subject:

    Vena (वेन):—[from ven] mf(ī)n. yearning, longing, eager, anxious, loving, [Ṛg-veda]


    such as in I.23:

    Soma! head, central point, love these; Soma! know these as serving thee

    mūrdhā́ nā́bhā soma vena ābhū́ṣantīḥ soma vedaḥ


    and also:


    Name of a divine being of the middle region, [Naighaṇṭuka, commented on by Yāska v, 4; Nirukta, by Yāska x, 38] (also applied to Indra, the Sun, Prajā-pati, and a Gandharva; in [Aitareya-brāhmaṇa i, 20] connected with the navel)

    This would be the speaker of X.123 along with an Apsaras who says:


    nāke suparṇam

    “Those desiring you in their hearts contemplated you travelling as a strong-winged bird in the sky, the golden-winged messenger of Varuṇa, the bird which nourishes (the world) in Yama's dwelling.”



    The Gandharvā stood erect upon the firmament

    ūrdhvo gandharvo adhi nāke




    Finally in Hiranyastupa's last hymn he speaks of Savitr:


    “Three are the spheres; two are in the proximity of Savitā, one leads men to the dwelling of Yama. The immortal (luminaries) depend upon Savitā as a car upon the pin of the axle; let him who knows (the greatness of Savitā) declare it.”


    Yama's world is one, the home of heroes...

    Suparṇa, (the solar ray)...asuraḥ


    a magical duel:


    hiraṇyahasto asuraḥ sunīthaḥ sumṛḻīkaḥ svavām̐ yātv arvāṅ | apasedhan rakṣaso yātudhānān asthād devaḥ pratidoṣaṃ gṛṇānaḥ ||


    His direct follower is redundant on Savitr.

    Nodhas I.62 is another re-telling of Indra II:


    Mid shout, loud shout, and roar, with the Navagvas, seven singers, hast thou, heavenly, rent the mountain;
    Thou hast, with speeders, with Dasagvas, Indra, Sakra, with thunder rent obstructive Vala.


    Only a couple of verses refer to it; but, there are no other scenes or details, it is the only event he refers to, in this hymn.

    Again the "navagva" terminology appears pretty precisely aimed at it. It has only these two references in Book One that we have noticed.


    Grtsamada may help us focus here. He refers to Dabhiti, an event that happened prior to VI.26:


    “Delighted by libations offered witḥ faith, you have consigned Cumuri to the sleep (of death) on behalf of Dabhīti, and bestowing (the maiden) Raji upon Piṭhīnas, you have, by your contrivance, destroyed sixty thousand (warriors) at once.”


    Bharadvaja, Vasistha, and Vamadeva "mention" this. If we take one timing cue from Grtsamada in II.11:


    He cast down Arbuda what time his vigour was strengthened by libations poured by Trta.
    Indra sent forth his whirling wheel like Surya, and aided by the Angirases rent Vala.


    it re-appears when II.15 culminates on Dabhiti; this has run rivers backwards which destroy Usas's car, defeats Vala, and finds the maidens. At first glance, this hymn is probably giving one continuous story.

    The significance of Dabhiti is probably most apparent in Kutsa's I.112 near the end with "original Kutsa", also having included Adhrigu, Mandhata, Trasadasyu, and Kasoja as another name of Divodasa. It seems that Kutsa is relatively late, very comprehensive and detailed, and does not mention Atri at all. Atri is in Book One, but not by Kutsa. We see that "Dirghasravas" may be intended as another name for Kaksivan Ausija. Therefor we may conclude that the back part of Book One is historically backwards, because the appropriate Rishi timeline would be:


    Dirghatamas

    Kaksivan

    Kutsa


    Being physically collected beside Dirghatamas is probably appropriate for Parucchepa Daivodasi, whose mythical background is:


    The ancient Dadhyañc, Aṅgiras, Priyamedha, Kaṇva, Atri, Manu, have known my birth; they who were of old and Manu have known (my progenitors)...


    I would take that to mean Rishi Priyamedha Angiras, Kanva Ghaura, and by extension Ghora Angiras.


    and yet his reasoning seems to be that it is because they are Pitrs:


    ...for of them is long life amongst the gods, and in them is our existence; for the sake of their nigh station, I adore (the gods) with praise...


    Cumuri is not spoken of other than by Bharadvaja, Vasistha, and a Vairupa, but is used by Grtsamada. Or, from his view, Vala is a subject in 11, 12, 14, 15, 24. Danu is involved in 11 and 12 and Dabhiti in 15. Trita is in 11, 31, 34. Arbuda is in 11 and 14. Trikadruka is 11, 15, 22.

    Brhaspati is in his own hymns which render the fusion:


    indrābrahmaṇaspatī



    Although it seems that Usas is nearly dissipated, she is with the only "Gvas" in II.34:


    They, the Dasagvas, first of all brought sacrifice: they at the break of mornings shall inspirit us.
    Dawn with her purple beams uncovereth the nights, with great light glowing like a billowy sea of milk.




    Trikadrukas:


    Now, verily, will I declare the exploits, mighty and true, of him the True and Mighty.
    In the Trikadrukas he drank the Soma then in its rapture Indra slew the Dragon.


    That is what is going on when he gets in league with Dabhiti. Dhuni is the flood that is reversed to wreck the car, or, it is reversed to overhwelm enemies, and the vajra hits the car.

    The "outcast" who then walks and sees has the unique formURL="https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc832576.html"]Paravrk[/URL], only shared with Vamadeva for:


    Parāvṛj, the son of Agru



    Agru is taken to be the mother in a case where the person was blinded by ants. It is against Ahi:


    Lord of Bay Steeds, thou broughtest from the ant-hill the unwedded damsel's son whom ants were eating.
    The blind saw clearly, as he grasped the serpent, rose, brake the jar: his joints again united.


    I suppose there is "basic" Vala, i. e. the overall story with Sarama and Brhaspati, whereas Grtsamada is focusing this same event but with more details, such as particularly Usas and the "crippled person". He just gives a bit of detail on Usas, whereas other Rishis elaborate her considerably.


    The first, Vrtra, era, could be accompanied by Dadhyan and not much else; Dadhyan could be "the navagva", which may just be "giver of new praise", which would be literally true, if he must have been among the first able to offer anything besides Atharvan.


    By the time of "Indra II", or Vala, it would make sense there could be "Ayasya and the Navagvas".

    I don't think Hiranyastupa or Grtsamada necessarily have to be contemporaneous to the respective events. Their hymns appear to be some of the most coherent versions. As we see, the majority of quotes are just a remark that it happened.

    In II.11, Grtsamada refers to Vrtra and Danu, before referring in at least three ways to "Indra II", so I think he is giving the actual chain of events.

    This explains why parts of Book Ten are copied into One.


    Although Hariyupia has been called a "first battle", and it deals with Bharata ancestry, in VI.27, Bharadvaja is talking about something current to him:


    Favouring Abhyāvartin, the son of Cāyamāna, Indra destroyed the varaśikha (people), killing the descendants of Vṛcīvat

    ...gave up Turvaśa to Sṛñjaya, subjecting the Vṛcīvats to the descendant of Devavāta (Abhyāvartin).

    “The opulent supreme sovereign Abhyāvartin, the son of Cāyamāna, presents, Agni, to me two damsels riding in cars, and twenty cows; this donation of the descendant of Pṛthu cannot be destroyed.”


    We can't trace any more Bharata ancestors; we can juggle a few aliases, or allies, but it won't go reliably much farther back, other than it sounds like Bharadvaja knew Divodasa's father. But also, these Bharatas are called descendants of Prthu.

    Sindhudvipa and Grtsamada both credit Trita with slaying Visvarupa.

    That almost certainly refers to an act of Devas, not people.

    Kutsa vs. Susna may be devas.

    Rishi Kutsa is Rishi Trita who is named for those two devas. As physically in Book One, he is probably at the time of Kasyapa and Avatsara, and before Atri. As stated in Book Two, he joins Grtsamada.


    Gotama does not give details about Vrtra, but he uses this title which sounds equivalent to Yama in I.80:


    átharvā mánuṣ pitā́


    and again in I.83:


    First the Angirases won themselves vital power, whose fires were kindled through good deeds and sacrifice.
    The men together found the Pani's hoarded wealth, the cattle, and the wealth in horses and in kine.

    Atharvan first by sacrifices laid the paths then, guardian of the Law, sprang up the loving Sun.
    Usana Kavya straightway hither drove the kine. Let us with offerings honour Yama's deathless birth.


    After me looking into this as perhaps an origin of Mantra, we find in perhaps one of the original statements from Goda that it is, in fact, Mantra, prior to being classed as Riks and Samans. By triangulating the capstone, we find a type of memory of the Vala event that must be pretty close. My inclination would be that Rishi Brhaspati is named for a more primordial figure; even so, he would still be the father of Bharadvaja. Relative to the actual recordings, he is above most, if not all of them. But he says nothing about Vala or any other event. Here, he is actually giving the motive, which includes Mantra, but, in the cumulative and total sense, from the plain version the Vedic motive is:


    Vak


    but in the Anukramani we find his subject is:


    Jnana


    It is about putting together Wisdom and Speech because Lakshmi depends on Vak:


    lakṣmīr nihitādhi vāci ||


    That happens to be exactly how I practice. He's not telling me anything. He may be inspirational to others.

    On a technical matter he exalts Gayatri as Sakvari:


    a [particular] metre (in Vedic texts of 7 x 8 syllables, and therefore called sapta-padā)


    His other hymn is Generation of the Gods where he is speaking as:


    laukya aditirvā dākṣāyaṇī

    Earth or Bhu is formed by what one translation calls "Productive Power" much like "Asura" and the other:


    the upward-growing (trees)


    1) Uttānapad (उत्तानपद्):—[=ut-tāna-pad] [from ut-tāna > ut-tan] f. (uttāna) one whose legs are extended (in parturition)

    2) [v.s. ...] Name of a peculiar creative agency, [Ṛg-veda x, 72, 4]

    3) [v.s. ...] vegetation, the whole creation of upward-germinating plants, ([Sāyaṇa])


    Uttānapāda (उत्तानपाद):—[=ut-tāna-pāda] [from ut-tāna > ut-tan] m. the star Β in the little bear (personified as son of Vīra or Manu Svāyambhuva and father of Dhruva)

    And it ends with the mysterious Martanda creation.


    It sounds like it flows right into the next hymn by Gauriviti Saktya, but, this begins naming personalities and the car of Usas.


    It is a better match for the Hiranyagarbha Creation.

    That is well done, he spends a dozen or so verses on things that are not that complicated that are definitely basics, he is explaining how to follow the Veda. And then Martanda requires some thought. Obviously this is again backwards, Creation must happen before Speech. If there is a gap in the development of Speech, from which, the Vedic Rishis are establishing their own kind, no attention seems to be paid here. It's understood there is a gap. Not a knowledge chain from Creation until now.

    There is no concern for other languages, it takes Sanskrit as meaningful Speech. So, whatever it is saying, is expressed in its intellectual development. And, we won't attempt to dispute that Bharadvaja begins a continuous chain of recordings. There is simply a layer before him which lacks the ability to show its complete manifestation before him, because it has not been recorded and passed down.


    In this layer there is Mandhata with Godha, and most likely the legend of Visvarupa, if we may suggest it is Ikshvaku. Not only is this important own its own to begin with, but, it appears to me that the Rg Veda is "about" Trasadasyu so much that it extends to what we might call its "worst" redactions. The recording begins with Divodasa and runs through Trasadasyu, mainly. Or Syavasva. It takes Atharvan as definitive for its New Speech and has Dadhyan and Brhaddiva. Along with Mandhata, the continuity breaks, until we find Ayasya, who is only missing one or two generations from Dadhyan. Along with Brhaspati, Ayasya is involved with Indra II vs. Vala. The Vrtra story may not have a direct representative, being told by a descendant. In terms of intellectual history, that does not matter, if we are willing to accept it really is the story from "grandfather's time" as told by the Rishi. We would say the same for Rishi Brhaspati, it is possible he is effectively the "grandson" of the vanquisher of Vala. We could literally call this "The Trikadruka Days" because we know this term is applied, but, overall, it is a collection of fragments, until "the Navagvas", plural, appear against Vala.


    In this mist are perhaps Seven Sages, Pururavas, and some others. Its destination is Trasadasyu Paurukutsa Gairiksita, an Ikshvaku who was "half a Puru" and most likely from a lineage of Vishnu Trivikrama that appears to stem from the Vrtra event.



    Now, compared to the "Books" format, intellectual history tells that, well, from the time of Bharadvaja, there must have been Anga Aurva and the Yamayanas of Book Ten, and, there must have been Dirghatamas of Book One. He is said to be making an Angiras Apri Hymn, that Vadhryasva is making a version of. If we don't dispute that Bharadvaja and the Bharatas are fine for Agni, then, we immediately have the segue' to the exposition of other deities. Just as Dadhyan augments the Aswins, we can see Usas is plainly augmented. This actually means it is the Couple or "Indian Gemini" Mithuna. What is that but the extension of what Brhaspati says on Speech as the aspect of wisdom and friendliness.

    Most of the material concerns an affinity between Haryana and Gangetic Indians, but then I think we have to suggest the Kanvas imply the addition of Tamils in a considerably earlier period than expected. One would like to think of this as the extension of such friendliness.

    We should now be able to compile a Rg Veda Hierophany:


    myths describe "breakthroughs of the sacred (or the 'supernatural') into the World"


    given the synonym Darsan, where we really mean the lineages and myth sequence. Chronological order of the Sages and hymns of the whole thing, rather than the classification as Books. The order of the hymns would be what the Speech is saying.


    After explaining Speech, Brhaspati explains the creation of the Devas by Brahmanaspati. This is not anachronistic, because it is found in Book Six by Payu:


    ...may brahmaṇaspati, may Aditi, grant us happiness every day.


    Because that simple statement matches Brhaspati's Speech, we may find that Brahmanaspati is in all the Books, except Three. He is dominant in Two. He is also regular in Yajur Veda, where again Visvamitra does not mention Brahmanaspati, because Visvamitra is not in Yajur Veda. He is mentioned as existing as a master one time.

    Atharvan started the Speech, Brhaspati slipped its purpose into the "recordings". We will attempt to follow this direction.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Indian Gemini









    Mithuna



    This is what perhaps should be given back as a national symbol.

    I am posting this in a political theme, because, strikingly similar to Zionism, India is strongly polarized with some extremist beliefs that may characterize half or even more of her population. That's a lot of Indians. Rather than focusing on every new problem that comes up in the news, or constantly arguing with supporters, we will go the other route and simply present what Veda is about as it develops itself as a form of Speech.


    Western Gemini is distinctly different. Mithuna is not really part of the Zodiac. We are attempting to unravel something like a Vedic Hierophany, that is to say, the message of the Sages involved in the way it developed internally, rather than the force fit lenses of kingdoms or books.


    Is there a linear sequence to be found, a consecutive order or flow?


    It does contain a thin layer about Creation and the logical consequence that the "first man" did not happen until then. It says nothing about the human race since then. The same logic means there was no Speech, until there was "something", that does not matter if it was Sanskrit, Indo-European, or what. The subject is its own Speech, which started at a definite point in time, from an individual who may be described as Atharvan or Yama.

    It is usually held that "parts" of the Atharva Veda and the Yajur Veda are older than the Rg Veda. That is because these classifications are arbitrary conveniences. The primordial system was all Mantra.

    So, in this Mantra era, what we get are partial fragments. The strength of the Rg Veda is that, beginning with Bharadvaja, you get a set of preserved recordings. Otherwise, there is nothing specifically original to, or beginning with, Bharadvaja. He fits in a somewhat bigger picture.

    Atharvanic Speech is Divinity, so, the attempt is to move this from his personal discovery, into the experience of everyone.

    Its main use is really aimed at the Householder Couple.

    It allows for an Aranyaka or hermitage practice, but appears to value the Couple more. In the Rigvidhana, it is no longer even known what the "Aranyaka (Vaikhanasa) mantras" are, although it is correct there is a goddess Aranyaki.


    Divinity means that Happiness depends on deities. So there is a fusion to be made, and the Vedic Sages or Rishis largely fall into lineages that emphasize one aspect or another. Bharadvaja is mostly about Agni, and, he is also about Sama Veda. This is not exactly a "classification" because it is the addition of Music or Gandharva Veda. Agni is cognate to "ignite" and, in one sense, is the driving force in all manifestations, and, in another sense, is one's Messenger Priest who intercedes on one's behalf with deities in Heaven. This of course means he is the major basis of...everything...except he is not everything. Rather than "Books", I would suggest the theme or purpose in the Rg Veda is largely in revealing and describing other deities. They all use One Power, Asura, and the main exposition of the circuit is in the story of Sunashepa I.24 - 30.

    The intellectual history of the pattern of Speech is not quite the same as the physical sequence of transmitted recordings. However, it is by turning to the more primordial, and apparently overlooked, Rishis, that we do get a package of what we might call critical basics or foundations.



    Creation


    Brhaspati X.72


    This is a Deva Creation that begins with Brahmanaspati and ends with Martanda. Then it is Martanda who dies and is reborn so that humans may be born. It stops there. By implication, the Hiranyagarbha Suktam would follow it. Then there are Devi and Purusha creations. Also the Lump or Post. So, yes, the Veda has multiple metaphysical angles on this, which are held to be simultaneously true, in more famous hymns of Book Ten. What it definitely does not say is that people called "feet" are slaves or expendables.


    Martanda is a profound theological impasse, which isn't even mentioned if you approach the subject in general study:


    Quote Hiranyagarbha Suktam is one of the three suktams (i.e., hymns) in the Rig Veda, which are associated with the subject of creation, the other two being Purusha Suktam and Nasadiya Suktam. Hiranyagarbha Suktam is the 121st suktam in the 10th mandala (chapter) of the Rig Veda, while Purusha Suktam is the 90th and Nasadiya Suktam is the 129th hymn, both of them being in the very same 10th mandala of the Rig Veda. Purusha Suktam is also repeated in the Shukla Yajurveda.

    One perhaps could argue that Brhaspati is not talking about "creation", if the whole thing is mental contents. However, Rishi Brhaspati is the father of most of the Rg Veda, not the original practice, but the transmitted system. So, the reverse is true, in context of the time, everyone would have understood Martanda as it is. The other hymns listed were not composed until after Visvamitra.



    Otherwise there is very little that could be taken as pre-worldly.

    Later subjects seem to have difficulty introducing Eleven or Twelve Adityas, with respect to our world. It is not a contradiction or conflict, when understood that smaller groups are based in the formation of Martanda.


    This would have to be called a Deva War when Indra defeats:


    Visvarupa X.8


    his friend is not a Sage but a form of Agni:


    Trita Aptya



    So, yes, it has a minor amount of metaphysical or ethereal postulation about a prior, non-material state. It does not deal with human beings until Pururavas. It *may* be compatible with the prior, Caksusa Manvantara and the Rite of Varuna; if so, this is very minor and far from clear in Book Nine.




    Mantra Veda



    Perhaps one of the oldest Mantras is from Mandhata, which is to Indra, but curiously uses a refrain about Devi giving birth to him. In the final verse from Godha X.134.7:


    nakir devā minīmasi nakir ā yopayāmasi mantraśrutyaṃ carāmasi | pakṣebhir apikakṣebhir atrābhi saṃ rabhāmahe ||


    “O gods, we never injure (you), we never inflict annoyance (on you), we follow the teaching of the mantra; we take hold of you at this (sacrifice) with wings and arms.”


    Because she says Mantra Sruta, it is hard to mistake the meaning and practice is within the mantras themselves.


    To support this, the inner meaning of mantra is given as well. This also must be among the oldest available recordings, and, I am not sure how you could begin to do any practices without this devotion. It is not that long, but, probably worth comparing both translations in their entirety:


    Brhaspati Vak Jnana X.71

    X.71 alternate


    In the theological sense, this mantra makes the Rg Veda completely clear.

    It is about putting together Wisdom and Speech because Lakshmi depends on Vak:


    lakṣmīr nihitādhi vāci ||



    In the over thousand hymns, there is very, very little additional development of "Laksmi", because it is almost entirely focusing on Vak. In this way, its use of multiple families of polytheistic deities is perhaps best synthesized and compounded by:


    Vak Devi Suktam X.125


    That makes it an expansion from acceptance of the basic principle, to a relatively advanced vision and saturation of one's entire being. This song has shifted the familiar "you" for invoking an external deity to "I", meaning they are the components of one's aura and psyche.

    One of the main points is that Speech arises from Friendliness.

    The collected hymns are almost entirely about Speech, although it does use kings and battles as scenery. I would suggest the Mandhata and Brhaspati fragments are the synopsis of "old days" that were eventually remembered in a dedicated recording system. The system definitely begins with a specific individual.





    The Trikadruka Days


    The Path was discovered and begun by:


    Atharvan; Yama


    who must have had as allies, the Ikshvaku Angirases:

    Mandhata, Ghoda

    The Vasisthas


    His direct descendants:


    Navagva Dadhyan

    Brhaddiva Atharvana X.120


    Dadhyan "augments the gods", that is, he gets the Aswins to learn the secret of Tvastr's Nectar, Madhu Vidya. In turn this is used by Brhaddiva:


    madhu madhunābhi yodhīḥ ||



    Yajur Veda contains Atharvan and Dadhyan's verses. They just praise deities, and say nothing of themselves or historical events. Notably as Pitr, Atharvan refers to:


    Tvastrmantastva


    So he is describing something more like "Pitr of the Devas", whereas the title "Yama" is given to him as the Pitr of Humanity. This would make him the or a Manu. It means something like an important teacher to something at least the size of a "tribe". The Rg Veda contains several, including "future Manu" Savarni. It says he has already manifested and wishes him continued success.



    "Visvakarma" is a name for Tvastr, or himself-as-son, which does not have the connotation of being attacked or destroyed by anyone. This, indeed, is a type of inter-woven parallel. Yajur Veda gives a scale from Gotama:


    Vasus, Pracetas, Vishvakarma.


    meaning those with twenty-four, thirty-six, and forty-eight years' experience.


    Sindhudvipa calls them Vasus, Rudras, Adityas.



    This is quite in-depth about Visvakarma, the subject of Three hymns by Shasa on Isvara:

    Vacaspatim

    also in the same context by:

    Bhuvanputro Vishvakarma Rshi


    In Rg Veda, there is Sasa Atreya V.21 and Sasa Bharadvaja X.152, as well as ViSvakarmA Bhauvana X.81-82.


    If the Veda is its own kind of Speech, then, the doctrine Lord of Speech Vacaspati could only be among the most important.

    Vacaspati is most frequently referred to as Bṛhaspati (s.v.) who by means of propitiatory ceremonies to planets, etc., disillusioned Raji's sons and won back the kingdom for Indra. This is commented as the husband of Vac Juhu, along with Mayobhu or origin of happiness. Juhu and Brhaspati.

    Vidya Vacaspati is a sub-title of the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad.

    Both Vedas show a broad understanding of Brhaspati as Vacaspati, and, a narrow acceptance of Visvakarma, as if this were coming from the fringe, such as an Ikshvaku tradition. Or, we might say that Visvakarma insists on a subtle yogic meaning of Madhu Doctrine, whereas, for example, Rishi Brhaspati gives the most basic intentions of Speech. The one is a more detailed increase of the other.





    Tvastr is, of course, the one who crafts the Spine into the Vajra, as seems to be accepted everywhere.


    From Singh 2013:


    Quote This is the introduction to Dadhyan Atharvana, popularly better known as Dadhici, the same seer who is famous for having donated his back-bone to Indra for killing Vrtra, the embodiment of evils in the world, while living and meditating on the back of the river Sarasvati. He has been referred to in this capacity as many as eleven times in the Rgveda alone and has contributed five last chapters to the Yajurveda including the famous Santipatha which has received the acclaim of the United Nations also and is chanted in India as well as in countries wherever there is prevalence of the Vedic culture throughout the world on each sacred occasion.


    The first act of Indra:

    Vrtra


    Waters

    This is recorded, not necessarily as the first mention, but in the most complete and dedicated form by Hiranyastupa Angiras I.32. It is among single hymns to other deities. There is only a passing allusion that this was "similar" to releasing the cows. Otherwise it only discusses Ahi--Vrtra and his mother Danu.

    Indra was augmented by the Trikadrukas.

    In other words, not just Dadhyan, there must have been a wider practice that was successful on at least a local level. Some kind of following has made this first event possible.

    The hymn is "incomplete" in the sense that other Rishis attach other occult principles to the event, such as:


    Puskara, Vishnu Trivikrama Giriksita


    Puskara is the "Lotus" of VI.16:


    “The sage, Atharvan, extracted you from upon the lotus-leaf, the head, the support of the universe.”

    “The ṛṣi, Dadhyañc, the son of Atharvan, kindled the slayer of Vṛtra, the destroyer of the cities of Asuras.”

    “(The ṛṣi) Pāthya, the showerer [vṛṣā], kindled you the destroyer of the Dasyu, the winner of spoil in battle.”


    Again, he proves something of a gap, because it does appear to be a person's name, Pathya Vrsa, that does not resound anywhere else. However, the literal meaning of "Path" is exactly what is used to define Yama X.14. Vasistha asks Dadhyan to consecrate it. We cannot distinguish discoverer/teacher of the Path from Atharvan. Therefor, Yama of the Rg Veda is most likely Atharvan. Perhaps meant as his "twin" in the after-death state, but both names seem to clearly indicate "founder".

    We can't fill in much about Pathya. Like him, in the fragmentary sense, there must have been legends of certain figures such as:


    Seven Sages, Atri, Kutsa, Rebha, Tugra


    Most of that is not any more coherent than brief references in later hymns. In the most palpable sense, because it has brought forth the doorway to Deathlessness, we find those who have accomplished successfully:


    The Rbhus


    They quite possibly have made "the Trikadrukas", since it is Chalices of Fire, Waters, and Earth that they produced. This is an alteration to the primordial Chalice that was shaped by Tvastr. In turn, this makes them the closest thing to a set of named/known "Pitrs".





    From this layer, inevitably there seems to be a generation or two that is "missing", there is no clear provenance or chain of custody as to how the sacrosanct knowledge of Atharvan got to Bharadvaja, for example. He does specifically name Brhaspati Angiras, but, this is still so sparse, he may be speaking of a legend rather than his personal father. Whether the two may be the same would be debatable from the second act of Indra:


    Vala

    The Navagvas with Ayasya and Brhaspati

    Dawn, Sun, Cows, Lightning

    Arbuda

    Kadru Sarparajni

    Adhrigu the Dasagva



    Towards this event, there are two fundamental Rishis.

    Anga Aurava makes a primordial reference to Vala and Vrtra. He also includes:


    Rjisvan and Pipru

    Ayasya


    In this second case, we are discussing a person who participated, was the leader of Navagvas in Sarama X.108. In his own words, Ayasya reverences Pitr and includes Arbuda. Sarama and the Panis is a complete conversation about it. Ayasya is also in Book Eight beside Medhatithi. Does this make it sound like Anga is coming from around the same time as Bharadvaja, yes, it does.

    This event however does not come into the rest of the Books in the same way.





    Now, that these two Indra events are separate, but, the second is almost entirely lost and confused, we can perhaps best find this structured and organized by Grtsamada. In fact, it is very nearly his job to maintain the story. Here is where you will see the relevant vocabulary in Book Two:


    Vala is a subject in 11, 12, 14, 15, 24. Danu is involved in 11 and 12 and Dabhiti in 15. Trita is in 11, 31, 34. Arbuda is in 11 and 14. Trikadruka is 11, 15, 22. Visvarupa is in 11.


    What we find here is that Grtsamada is probably the only person besides Sindhudvipa to use "Visvarupa" as a proper name. This may be an Ikshvaku legend, i. e., generally unknown to others. Sindhudvipa is a Varsagira, which is Ikshvaku. He is "copied" by Grtsamada and Medhatithi.

    Grtsamada Indra dovetails these original deeds with others.



    Grtsamada on Three Indra Events



    In Book Two, Grtsamada does ten Agni Hymns, and then changes to Indra in Eleven. At first, "Ahi" is taken as a synonym for "Vrtra". Extracting his useful details starting from Verse Nine:


    Quote The mighty Indra has shattered the guileful Vṛtra reposing in the cloud

    ...he (Indra), baffled the devices of the guileful Dānava.


    Indra, hero, exulting in the solemn Trikadruka rites

    you have crushed Vṛtra, the spider-like son of Dānu


    He's not oblivious to this, at all. However, he is focusing on other, more recent, events.

    The others are in Verse Nineteen:


    Quote you have slain Viśvarūpa, the son of Tvaṣṭā, through friendship of Trita.

    “Invigorated (by the libation) of the exulting Trita, offering you the Soma, you have annihilated Arbuda; Indra, aided by the Aṅgirasa, has whirled round his bolt, as the tun turns round his wheel, and slain Vala.”



    That's very curious. He equates Vrtra as the son of Danu, and then doesn't really do that much with it. He just recalls that the Trikadrukas were the catalyst. Those last two lines could still carry the sense of first the deity Trita, then Rishi Trita vs. Arbuda, and Angirases vs. Vala. These tales are widely separated, as if the first were a module to itself, and the others braided together in another stream.

    Through the rest of his Indra section, as with most hymns, events come tumbling out as if from a salt shaker. Here is a selection from the rest.


    Hymn Twelve:


    Quote who having destroyed Ahi, set free the seven rivers; who recovered the cows detained by Vala


    he who gave birth to the sun and to the dawn; and who is the leader of the waters

    He, who discovered Śambara dwelling in the mountains for forty years; who slew Ahi, growing in strength, and the sleeping son of Dānu

    Again a backwards appearance. "Waters" seems to imply Vrtra, whereas Sun, Dawn, and Cows seem to group with Vala. Historically, this hymn supports the idea that Divodasa waged a *long* campaign into Himachal Pradesh.



    Hymn Thirteen:


    Quote who, for the sake of Dabhīti, has cast the Dasyus into unfettered (captivity)


    You have provided a passage for the easy crossing of the flowing waters for Turviti and Vayya; rendering (yourself) renowned, you have uplifted the blind and lame Paravṛj from the lowliness (of affliction)

    It perhaps is a generic expression, meaning *anyone* transfixed by lameness and blindness. This is not developed here.



    Hymn Fourteen:


    Quote him who slew Dṛbhīka, destroyed Vala, and liberated the cows

    hurled Arbuda down headlong.

    who destroyed Pipru


    who destroyed the assailants of Kutsa, Āyu and Atithigva.

    Pipru implies he means the saga of Rjisvan. But he is not focusing on that either.

    He has probably summarized a level of "three tribes", being the Ikshvakus or Trksis, the Purus or Bharatas, and Ayu for others to the west.


    Hymn Fifteen:


    ...carrying off Dabhiti...


    as for the "great flood":


    mahīṃ dhunim


    Quote he turned the Sindhu towards the north; with his thunderbolt he ground to pieces the wagon of the dawn

    Conscious of the disappearance of the damsels, the (ṛṣi) Parivṛj, becoming manifest, stood up; the lame man overtook (them), the blind man beheld (them)

    Praised by the Aṅgirasas, he destroyed Vala

    You have slain the Dasyus Cumuri and Dhuni, having cast them into (profound) sleep; you have protected Dabhīti

    We find a slightly better detail about Usas and the healing of a cripple. As with the Trikadrukas and Sambara, he has attached the main point of a larger story that is usually more difficult and scattered elsewhere.


    The incident of a river and Dabhiti is one we want to keep separate and distinct from what appears to be a repeatable power of Indra. One such river interruption comes from Visvamitra Kusika III.35. He is certain about his area:


    the confluence of the Vipās' and Śutudri

    I repaired to the most material river; I went to the wide auspicious Vipās'...


    without a struggle being particularly referred to, he commands the rivers drop lower than the axle of a wagon:


    so may the Bharatas pass over


    Then almost immediately or on behalf of the same person in VII.18:


    Indra made the well-known deep waters (of the Paruṣṇi) fordable for Sudāsa

    “Turvaśa, who was presiding (at solemn rites), diligent in sacrifice, (went to Sudāsa) for wealth; but like fishes restricted (to the element of water), the Bhrigus and Druhyus quickly assailed them; of these two everywhere going the friend (of Sudāsa, Indra) rescued his friend.”


    he also specifically uses:

    paruṣṇīm |


    refers to older, back to Sambara, and then what are likely more recent, enemies:


    Bheda: one who breaks or separates

    Yudhyamadhi


    This hymn appears to use Indra as a multiple flood that has devastated several settlements. Much closer to a "battle hymn" than most. It also has the most self-reflexive naming of the grandson of Devavata:


    Divodāsa, the father of Sudāsa; favour the prayers of the devout son of Pijavana



    This Vasistha hymn is unwieldy; here are a few more notes from Grtsamada.


    Hymn Nineteen:


    Quote The adorable Indra, the slayer of Ahi, sent the current of the waters towards the ocean; he generated the sun; he discovered the cattle; he effected the manifestation of the days by light.

    The divine Indra, when lauded (by Etaśa), humbled the Sun

    for the sake of Divodāsa, demolished the ninety and nine cities of Śambara.

    By this he seems to mean Etasa Brahmanaspati.

    Compare Etasa and Kutsa.


    Hymn Twenty-one:


    Quote Indra has given birth to the light of the morning.

    The wise Uśijas, celebrating his praises, have obtained by their sacrifice, from the sender of water (knowledge) of the path (of their cattle)



    Hymn Twenty-two:

    Quote partaking of the Soma, mixed with barley, effused at the Tṛkadruka rites, has drunk with Viṣṇu as much as he wished

    This would mean the first event, Vrtra, accomplished with Friendship of Vishnu.


    Hymn Twenty-three goes on to Ganapati Brahmanaspati.

    And we see he has unfolded "the Dasagva" Adhrigu, considered the master of the Three Worlds, to:


    We call you such, great Maruts, following wonted ways, to the oblation paid to Visnu Speeder-on.
    With ladles lifted up, with prayer, we seek of them preeminent, golden-hued, the wealth which all extol.

    They, the Dasagvas, first of all brought sacrifice: they at the break of mornings shall inspirit us.
    Dawn with her purple beams uncovereth the nights, with great light glowing like a billowy sea of milk.


    The line uses "Visnu esasa", and he has accepted the Navagvas became Dasagvas or were successful in their practice. He has gone beyond Vala to this "Paravrj" scene, which may be Rjrasva, or others. Paravrj is mentioned by Vamadeva and Kutsa.



    Grtsamada himself is obviously within the time of Divodasa. He does not mention Sudas. There is not much to say he must have necessarily been much later than Bharadvaja, other than being a follower of a follower, which is not a very definite time frame. He probably is within the timeframe of Trasadasyu. The inference would be that this is not really that long after the Bharatas. If he does in fact know Rishi Kutsa, it sounds like almost a mutual agreement that they pursue different arenas. If Grtsamada is relatively "late" in this manner, he has been very selective and not cluttered this area the ways most of those accreted hymns do.


    He uses the "actual" name "Divodasa" one time in the whole Book. We are finding a trend of "aliases", and, Divodasa has more than anybody. Five or six at least. This perhaps is another. "Dabhiti" is only referred to in a very select manner by just a few other Rishis.

    Vasistha VII.19 refers to Dabhiti and Sudas, but not Divodasa.

    VI.26 puts Divodasa and Dabhiti in sequential verses in such a way that Dabhiti may be the strange means that assisted Divodasa. The same formula is used by Vamadeva, with Divodasa as a donor followed by Dabhiti assisted by Maya. Only Kutsa separates him slightly, grouping him with Kutsa and Turviti.

    II.15 is the most focused, Dabhiti is the first person named, it goes to the scene of reversing the river and Usas's car and the healing of parāvṛk, then the Angirases and Vala, and finally back to Dabhiti versus Cumuri and Dhuni. Of course, Dhuni is the river that was reversed, so the end is the beginning.


    So Grtsamada has stitched his rare recollection of Visvarupa and Vala to the seeds of Aswins and Usas events which are elaborated elsewhere. It does not have a big upwelling of additional Indra stories.

    This is probably the neatest parcel that will link the "fragments" to the "continuous recording". That is to say, Visvarupa, Vrtra, and Vala, to subjects diversified by Kaksivan and others.



    Guru Parampara



    Compared to the way the Rg Veda looks, once we enter its chain of continuity, it will begin Books Ten, Six, and One at once:


    Uru Angiras --> Anga Aurava X --> Havirdhana Angi, Vivasvan Aditya

    Uru Angiras --> Brhaspati and Juhu, Ucathya and Mameta --> Bharadvaja VI, Samyu, Dirghatamas I



    The first line is peculiarly significant, because what Book Ten tells us is that original Vaivasvata is not anything that is said about it. It has to do with a "conversational" hymn in Vivasvan Aditya and Havirdhana Angi X.13. The philosophy Havirdhana has given:


    “Hard to understand is the nature of the immortal, for although of one origin, she is of a different form; cherish him diligently, great Agni, who understands Yama's nature easy to be understood.”


    here uses:

    pathyeva sūreḥ


    Pathya of the Suris (Rishis)


    and as deities:


    Brhaspati, Yama


    This is followed by the self-titled and very clear Yama X.14, king (of the Pitṛs), son of Vivasvat, the aggregation of mankind.


    That automatically defines him as *not* the first human being, but, a mentally-different son of theirs, Vaivasvata being humanity. Vivasvan may be the solar orb in any mundane capacity, the -vata are its offspring through the fecundity of nature. Everyone up to what we presume to be a pre-Vedic form of Sanskrit.

    Havirdhana, personally, is four or five generations away from Yama, showing the understanding that has been conveyed.


    Rishi Brhaspati may also not quite be original Brhaspati; however, from him, we have both those who are physical offspring, and, others who may have had him as a guru. His influence also seeps in to VIII.102 which is by Asanga or Prayoga Bhargava or:

    agnirvā pāvako bārhaspatyaḥ


    or another I will abbreviate to:

    athavāgnī tayorvānyataraḥ


    In Book Ten, there is briefly a Tapurmurdah Barhaspatya with a few Brhaspati verses.


    In terms of sheer volume, it looks like the Rg Veda would simply start with Bharadvaja in Book Six. Having shown this cannot possibly be the case, especially with regard to the subject material, in Book Six there is the continuity of:


    Atharva Gotra


    And Bharadvaja does not qualify as a Gotra. To the extent an "Apri Hymn" is the quickest way to distinguish them, at first we only find Vadhryasva's Bharatas' hymn which is a slight alteration of something by Dirghatamas. This would make sense if all was in the reign of Divodasa.

    Dirghatamas must also be around the same time as Bharadvaja. He creates what we now know as the Angiras Apri Hymn. And, we find the beginning of other Gotra names under them. There is a marked expansion of Angirases:


    Ghora Angiras --> Kanva Ghaura

    Rahugana Angiras --> Gotama Rahugana


    What this tells us is that "Rahu" hasn't got any meaning other than Eclipse. The Knowledge of the Rishis is Time or Astrology. There is not a full set of Naksatras recorded until the latest portion of Atharva Veda, which associates Gotama with Tvastr and the star Citra--Spica. We do find some astrological names and information, which almost suggests the "final complete recording" is simply the transmission of something known in its entirety from the beginning.

    There is far from one Vedic "source" well before the solid part of its history begins. One could say that Ghora is an aspect of Sarasvati in Book Six. Also, half of the Atharva Veda is in the aspect of Ghora.





    Divodasa and the Bharatas era


    This happens to begin with what sounds like an "Astrological moment":


    Simsumara is "yoked"


    We are thinking of two crises that would have happened around the beginning of the Age of Aries. One being the Equinox shift, and also the Pole Star has drifted off of Thuban in Draco. We believe that in India, the pole-pointer sign was moved to Simsumara, which was the IVC Garhial Sky God. A New Speech and its New Clock have reset this deity into Varuna. This is the only time it is mentioned in the Rg Veda.


    Book Six also shows the Aswins assisted people to find Usas:


    Rjisvan and Arjika


    We have been oblivious to the fact that Yaska defines this as the Beas River.

    We would have to reason this makes Puranic Manali impossible, because here the Veda is arriving at the Beas and, so to speak, pursuing Usas. This is a complex theology because Usas transits five lovers before entering human form. The hymn of Surya Savitri X.85 captures this and hugely explains symbolic Soma. It is clear that an inner world is being dealt with, such as Chariot of the Mind, and Vimana. Devas are intelligence and vigor.

    "Arjika country" is inextricably twined to one of the most important primordial Rishis. According to Gotama in I.84, it is the location of Dadhyan's Horse Head:


    “Wishing for the horse's head hidden in the mountains, he found it in Śaryaṇāvat.”

    “The (solar rays) found on this occasion the light of Tvaṣṭā verily concealed in the mansion of the moving moon.”



    The Rg Veda already contains statements that place Gotama near the realm of Tvastr and astrology, which again makes the late recording of the Naksatras sound relevant towards what at first is called "concealed knowledge". It sounds very educational, just moving the technical and arcane New Clock of the Rishis into the knowledge base of the ordinary farmer. Takes a few generations. Of course.



    If Dirghatamas is not really necessary for basic information on the beginning of Agni or Indra, he makes a huge contribution in Vishnu Trivikrama Giriksita I.154, followed by the Aswins who are inside all living beings, and Yama-as-Horse.

    Kaksivan elaborates Usas and knows of Rjrasva Varsagira. In I.116 is where the Aswins rewardng Divodasa cause the Bull and Porpoise to be yoked.

    In other words, at basically the same time as Bharadvaja making a very "official" Agni lineage with the Bharatas, here is a parallel lineage of Angirases that evokes Vishnu, Dadhyan, the Aswins, and Usas.





    In the time of Visvamitra, Sudas defeated the Kikatas of Bihar. Most likely, the Iksvakus had in turn become oppressed by their neighbors. Through this event, Sages such as Jamadagni, Vasistha, Agastya become involved.

    Vasistha recuperates the Bharatas from some new loss in VII.33 and:


    “By the wisdom seated in the heart the Vasiṣṭhas traverse the hidden thousand branched world, and the Apsarasas sit down wearing the vesture spread out by Yama.”


    Otherwise, there is not much about the empire or kingdom.

    There is more reason to suggest a forty-year campaign in Himachal Pradesh along with a tremendous mystical increase of Usas and the Aswins, which perhaps is why Divodasa has so many names. We think it is less likely this was his birth name.

    We don't really know what became of Sudas, but, we already see the Ikshvaku Varsagiras have arisen as known to Kaksivan. Sindhudvipa is the following generation. It is almost as if the Bharatas are a small, limited bubble; the Ikshvakus are not Aryas.

    The difference and/or the bridge is apparent when Urvasi in X.95 is called both Usas and Saranyu; Pururavas is Vasistha.

    Pururavas does not quite seem to be human:


    father of Āyus and ancestor of Puru Duṣyanta

    according to, [Nirukta, by Yāska x, 46] he is one of the beings belonging to the middle region of the universe, and is possibly to be connected with the Sun as Urvaśī is with the Dawn

    The descent from Ayus is supposed to be Vena and Prthu. They are part of the Rg Veda but I have not yet tried to find if they might match the popular story.



    From the Ikshvaku side, there is an unknown mother who follows the guidance of the Seven Sages and has the main character.


    Trasadasyu Paurukutsa Gairiksita



    This incredibly powerful person is a donor to the last Gotra founder, Atri. I do not yet understand his background. He is said to relate to "all five tribes". This may be the most populist position in the whole Rg Veda. However we found a series from him based in Brhaddiva that concatenates into:


    Atri's Triple Bull

    Tridhatusrngo Brhaddivo


    It is talented, less messy and more elegant than many chimeras.

    This is because it is in conjunction with Brhaddiva, whom he has just explained as Urvasi.


    This is in a strange but full circle from Gaya Plata in Mata Brhaddiva and Pitr Tvastr X.64:


    uta mātā bṛhaddivā śṛṇotu nas tvaṣṭā devebhir janibhiḥ pitā vacaḥ | ṛbhukṣā vājo rathaspatir bhago raṇvaḥ śaṃsaḥ śaśamānasya pātu naḥ ||


    “May the bright shining mother (of the gods) hear us; may father Tvaṣṭā, with the gods, and their wives, (hear our) words; may Ṛbhukṣan, Vāja, Rathaspati, Bhaga, may the joyous adorable (company of the Maruts) protect us their praisers.



    It is in a pair of comprehensive Visvedevas hymns, including Krsanu and Tisya and:


    To Sun and Moon, two Moons, to Yama in the heaven, to Trita, Vata, Dawn, Night, and the Atvins Twain.


    birth of the sun:


    “At the birth of Dakṣa, at his sacred rite, you, Aditi, worshipped the royal Mitra and Varuṇa at the sacred rite. Aryaman, whose course is not hurried, the giver of delight to many, having seven ministering (rays),(proceeds) in his multiform births.”



    There is an odd, indirect pairing of Brhaddiva and Tvastr, which is most directly summarized in the understanding of "Vacaspati". This certainly appears to be re-iterated and integrated by Rishi Atri.


    However, it is Atri's son who has about fifty percent more verses and definitely attaches a distant region:


    Syavasva Atreya


    The Rg Veda contains his son, Andhigu Syavasvi, and others by the name of Atreyas may be third- or fourth-generation descendants. The epoch of its saga most likely tapers off with Syavasva. I'm not sure it's possible to constructively show otherwise.

    Compared to Atri, Kaksivan is barely discernable from Vamadeva, and Vamadeva says that in his time, a "system of Trasadasyu and Dadhyan" had spread everywhere, in IV.38.

    Kutsa is the only one to mention Trasadasyu in Book One, so, if Grtsamada is the same time as him, they are simply adopting complementary writing styles that are near exclusive.


    Grtsamada says he joined with Rishi Trita.



    This Rishi is the same person writing in two legendary names:


    Kutsa Angiras -- Trita Aptya


    See for example I.105. It is even in the Mantra as well as the Anukramani. Sayana comments this in a few other places.

    Trita on Agni:


    ...whom Tvaṣṭā, the glorious creator, engendered, who are cognizant of the path, the road of the Pitṛs,...

    He has another name in X.46:


    Trita, the son of Vibhuvas

    which is less likely to be human than to beIndra Vrsabha Vibhuvasa.



    The nucleus of Book Ten is the Trita Aptya verses followed by Sindhudvipa Ambarisa on Visvarupa and Waters.

    Now, this is just in my personal analysis, I would suggest the Rg Veda compendium was designed by:


    Medhatithi Kanva


    He comes from a Family that is much earlier than may be expected, and, he adds the tales of the Atreyas, who have linked Trasadasyu's realm to some other place. He is in the nucleus of Books One and Nine. In so doing, he quotes at great length from Sindhudvipa on Waters. The part that he uses is the part that has been excluded from what is known as "daily purification by water".

    He has tuned the Apri Hymn to the context that goddesses are providers of Happiness.

    If we return to Yajur Veda, Sindhudvipa on Waters is all about such Divine Happiness for the Mithuna or Couple.


    This, again, would be one of the primary purposes to blend wisdom and friendliness in Speech.

    This is remarkably consistent; in one area, he quotes Sindhudvipa in what is about the largest amount known, except for the similar copy in the main Apri Hymn of Visvamitra and Vasistha; and then he breaks this one with the same intent.





    Original Kanva is very vanilla. He is not even in Book Eight--appears to be in One for historical veracity. He has only a few people who vaguely fit the pre-history of Book Six, and possibly makes a technical remark on Pracetas and Marut Gana. Now that we understand the terminology, "raised by Marut Gana" may very well be by Rishis of the middle rank.

    He mentions Sunrta Vak Devi associated with Brahmanaspati.

    I am not even sure if Samyu is supposed to refer to the person. Kanva is on the quite primitive side, there is nothing to distinguish why he would have many eminent followers.

    Atri has no problem consecutively saying:


    The heavenly Victor, he whose priest is Kanva...

    Blest he the priest of Ausija...



    Most traditional commentary appears to reduce Kanva to mere mention of the name, but the Kanvas probably had the most to do with collecting and collating the Rg Veda as a whole. We find close together in Book Eight or Pragatha Mandala:


    SyAvASva Atreya

    Trita Aptya
    PragAtha KANva

    Manu Vaivasvata or KaSyapa MArIca


    If this is the Kasyapa of Ayurveda:


    In Kāśyapa Saṃhitā the word Mārīca is also seen repeatedly instead of Kāśyapa. Hence it can be inferred that Kāśyapa and Mārīca are one and same.


    It is possible there are Marica fingerprints in the Atharva Veda.

    Rg Veda's Kasyapa came up around the time of the Varsagiras and like Atri, his descendants have more to do with it.

    Unlike Atri, there is no prior mention of him at all and no Marica.


    He is complicated by Puranas assigning "Tarksya" as a personal name of him.

    In Gotama I.89, Tarksya is a deity at par with Indra, Pusan, and Brhaspati. He is actually called "tarksya aristanemi" same as the Vedic Rishi. Tarksya X.178 is this Rishi praising this deity. This hymn is also copied.

    The only hymns which have repetitions in common
    with X.178 are by VAmadeva Gautama:

    X.178.2: IV.23.10
    PRthvI bahule gabhire

    X.178.3: IV.38.10
    SavasA panca kRSTIh sUrya iva
    jyotiSApastatAna.


    The deity is taken as Garuda or Suparna. What is perhaps a bit more telling here is the credit for X.144:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): suparṇastārkṣyaputra ūrdhvakṛśano vā yāmāyanaḥ

    The Golden Hawk, Tarksya's son, is with Krsanu Yamayana.


    Etymologically, "Tarksya" has been taken as "son of the Trksis", that is, the Bharatas' name for the Gangetics. Sobhari Kanva describes this as:


    “Rich in food, Aśvins, come to us by the paths of sacrifice, those by which showerers (of benefits), you went to gratify Tṛkṣi, the son of Trasadasyu, with vast wealth.”


    The "Trksus" are originally found in Samyu VI.46.

    Perhaps Kasyapa was a Trksi; it would make sense for him to be a "later manifestation" of an older Soma deity. Such symbolism has definitely been pasted to him. There is more gravity towards the view that the Veda uses Trksi for "Ikshvaku" and is probably symbolized by Kutsa. So far, Golden Hawk appears to stand as a rival of Bactrian Eagle, and is perhaps similar to Manu Savarni. It is possible the Kasyapas have a new, Manu-like nature in this vein.


    Kutsa and Vasistha have this Ikshvaku association, and, Pururavas has just claimed to be Vasistha. It may be possible that Mandhata and others already had a semi-compatible Indra Hymn, and Atharvan has simply added a specific practice, Soma Offering.

    He has developed a routine of Gnosis through Agni which perhaps was not explained before. We cannot say that a very similar mythology and bardistry was not existing before, we can only be sure the Vedic Speech is about Soma or Madhu in its unique fashion.



    Kasyapa himself was probably personally closer to Rjrasva Varsagira, with his son Avatsara being at the time of Atri and Trasadasyu. Syavasva's Rishis described as Us include Avatsara. He has the largest number of hymns in the Soma Book, and shares timeframe and donors with Kutsa:

    in the present tense, Dhvasra/Dhvasanti and PuruSanti: I. 112.23; IX. 58.3 (patron).


    Dhvasra and Puruṣanti: two kings who conferred great wealth on Taranta and Purumiḷha, to ṛṣis of the family of Vidadaśvin


    which, again, is how Kutsa returns us the value of Dabhiti's mystique:


    “With those aids by which you, who are worshipped in many rites, protected Kutsa, the son of Arjuna, as well as Turviti, Dabhiti, Dhvasant, and Puruśanti; with them, Aśvins, come willingly hither.”


    The newer patrons have to do with whatever Syavasva was inter-marrying into.

    The only tangible sense of timing is that Atri refers to Trasadasyu as a *new* donor. In that sense, he was already established. It may mean Vamadeva was old, or even passed away when that happened. If you make an announcement when you become "established", Trasadasyu Atma IV.42 cannot be taken lightly. It could however be taken as following Sunashepa.


    In a broad sense, this resolves any issue about whether Mandhata and the Vasisthas were prior to or different from Atharvan, because it reconciles them. This would be reassuring to the populations of the Ganges and Haryana, i. e. that they had become united in a divine manifestation. Divodasa and Trasadasyu are the main epic heroes of the events; despite their different origins, all works together in the final form.

    It definitely makes the point that family or bloodline does not determine the good from the enemy. If you don't actually need a battlefield, today, then you follow the metaphor to enemies within.

    Brhaddiva is the hypostasis of Wife of the Sun and Daughter of the Sun. The Rg Veda does deal with the fairly well-known legend of Saranyu, and, what is not so well-known is whatever is going on between "Paravrj" and Usas and the Aswins. In perspective, the Wife of the Sun is the Daughter of Tvastr. This is intricate and subtle, and then there is a difficult rivalry between Tvastr and Indra.

    That is what it is working with, like a gyroscope, or astrolabe. From the beginning it is a Madhu Doctrine, and this is asserted by Vamadeva to be the prevailing system of Trasadasyu.


    There turns out to be a late, "concluding" piece from Kavasa Ailusa X.34:


    I the priests' Rsi chose as prince most liberal Kurusravana,
    The son of Trasadasyu's son


    being:

    The sire of Upamasravas

    Mark, Upamasravas, his son, mark, grandson of Mitratithi:
    I am thy father's eulogist.

    because:

    If I controlled Immortal Gods, yea, even were I Lord of men,
    My liberal prince were living still.


    That very plainly makes a lineage. Trasadasyu, Mitratithi, Kurusravana, Upamasravas.

    This must be late, as we saw that Sobhari Kanva calls "Trksi" the son of Trasadasyu, and there are no other clear references; but this is, suggesting it must be later than most of the hymns. These kings are not found anywhere else. The last is taken from an epithet of Brahmanaspati by Grtsamada, and his father is an epithet of Indra in the preceding hymn by Kavasa. Most likely he was personally close enough to have ordained the person as Kurusravana. And a sudden passing does not necessarily bode well for the Trksi Kingdom from Trasadasyu.

    They are lost as human beings. Puranas have no idea these people existed.


    From the Rg Veda, we see the Ikshvakus temporarily "lost" Agni, Purukutsa was imprisoned, and Kurusravana was defeated or otherwise died in office. After his son then we know nothing. It does sound like it may lead to confusion about "Puru and Kuru kingdoms". Then in most Itihasa, we find "Sahadeva, son of Sudas", which is both incorrect and misleading. Eventually, Saunaka tries to tell us "Grtsamada was a Saunaka", which is also incorrect and misleading. There are flawed interpretations that seem to stream from him, such as the Sahadeva statement. He is useful for raw data; his Brhaddevata must be 80-90% accurate, and Brahmanda Purana is a narrative shaped over this. Agni Purana contains his Rigvidhana as a straight copy. But when it comes to human and philosophical remarks, he should be quarantined as "his own idea". Such as the importance of Devapi and Santanu cannot be determined; but this is massive in the "normal" version of history.

    Does it make sense the end of these kings would be around the time of Atri's grandson, Andighu Syavasvi, yes it does.


    This is quite strange, since originally I was curious about our "Buddhist Trikadruka", and found the Brahmanda Purana to be the most useful general resource. Its history is not a 1 : 1 match of the Veda, but, the others are worse. The Puranic corpus appears to deteriorate the near-copy of Brhaddevata--which would be its most legitimate and useful part--and cherry-pick certain hymns to twist the history into something different and self-justified.

    Because Trikadruka turns out to be the main self-defining practice of the Path as revealed by the Veda, this is very satisfactory for the origin of Yoga. Same as Mantra Vidya, which cannot be distinguished from the earliest known Sanskrit. The practice is dismissive towards what Sanskrit or previous rites may have been. It would be extremely misleading to describe this as something that launched fully intact from the mind of the deity into the first men and has been humanity's saving grace ever since. The most archaic belief would be to say that original Speech was developed through Friendliness. Enemies are constantly described as those who have distorted Speech. And so what we have is an education in Mantra intended for the communities of Friendly Speech.





    Reverting to "both are true" for Visvakarman as Tvastr and himself-as-son, this is the intention of Grtsamada in Brahmanaspati II.23:


    “Tvaṣṭā engendered you (chief) amongst all beings, (whence) you are the reciter of many a holy hymn: Brahmaṇaspati acknowledges a debt to the performer of a sacred rite; he is the acquitter (of the debt), and the destroyer of the oppressor.”


    kavi refers to tvaṣṭā, further explained as the sage who created Brahmaṇaspati by the efficacy of the sāma


    It is four Brahmanaspati hymns, without the name "Visvakarma" being present, it makes this corollary explanation.

    Notice that here also we find Ganapati:


    gaṇānāṃ tvā gaṇapatiṃ havāmahe kaviṃ kavīnām upamaśravastamam | jyeṣṭharājam brahmaṇām brahmaṇas pata ā naḥ śṛṇvann ūtibhiḥ sīda sādanam ||


    and:

    For Tvastar, he who knows each sacred song, brought thee to life, preeminent o' er all the things that be.


    With this understanding, Brahmanaspati begins the whole thing from II.1 in Book Two.

    The Rishi is fully credited as:


    āṅgirasaḥ śaunahotro bhārgavo gṛtsamadaḥ


    which is almost true according to Naksatra Mythology:


    Quote Tvastar, also known as Rathakāra, belongs to the clan of the Bhṛgus.

    He is the father of Saranyu, who twice bears twins to Vivasvat (RV 8.26.21), including Yama and Yami, also identified as the first humans.

    We would contend this is intentionally "Bhargava". The Rg Veda does have "Bhrgus", which are spelled "bhrgva", it is an obvious difference. Then it is not "first humans", but, "first practitioners". We find them forbidden to interbreed, so, this is something like Tvastr *not* being shown directly with Brhaddiva, but, as Gna Pati, with all the devas' wives.



    This hypostasis is a crossroads to the Rbhus in X.53:


    “Tvaṣṭā knows the arts of fabricating (drinking vessels), the most skilful of artificers bearing the sacred drinking cups out of which the gods drink-- verily he sharpens his axe of good metal, wherewith the white-complexioned brahmaṇaspati cuts them.”



    Mostly, "brahma" is not quite an entity, but, a verb.


    Hero of Heroes, Agni! Thou art Indra, thou art Visnu of the Mighty Stride, adorable:
    Thou, Brahmanaspati, the Brahman finding wealth: thou, O Sustainer, with thy wisdom tendest us.



    In Apri Hymn Three we encounter:


    sárasvatī sādháyantī


    Sarasvati who perfects our devotion



    Here is the value in Brahmanda Purana. It will call to our attention one of the most subtle details in these hymns. This is partially visible in Syavasva VIII.35 introducing an unusual Deva:


    Associated with Mitra and Varuṇa, with Dharma, with the Maruts...


    And if the value of Purusha Sukta X.90 may also be metaphysical, purusha is subsequently re-born through, and then burned by the devas in Purusha Sukta Verse Seven, summarized at the end:


    By sacrifice the gods worshipped (him who is also) the sacrifice; those were the first duties. Those great ones became partakers of the heaven where the ancient deities the Sādhyas abide.

    sādhyāḥ santi devāḥ ||



    Brahmanda Purana fastens these two when it discusses mental progeny and evolution, it does so with kingdoms of nature started by Dharma First:


    Sādhyas, Viśvedevas and Vasus are the sons of Dharma.

    The Sādhyas, Viśvedevas and Vasus are remembered as the sons of Dharma.

    Twelve Sādhyas were born as the sons of Sādhyā and Dharma. Those conversant with the Devas affirm that they are superior to other Devas.

    His other offspring include:


    The ten famous Viśvedevas were born of Viśvā (i.e. the wife of Dharma). Including Purūravas.

    The Vasus were the sons of Vasu. They are remembered as the younger brothers of the Sādhyas.

    Marutvants were born of Marutvatī.

    These Muhūrtas are the different periods of time. They are remembered as Devatās.

    Ahirbudhnya of the Night somehow drags in the Adityas, and they appear as nighttime deities.

    All the objects on the Earth were born of Arundhatī. This is the scholarly permanent creation of Dharma. It has been thus narrated.



    The most easily recognizable Sadhya is Vishnu Narayan. Vishnu Trivikrama is an Aditya.


    Book Two begins with a fairly accessible Brahmanaspati, as if we were going from the basic hymn of Rishi Brhaspati, and moves it into a much more comprehensive sphere of Tvastr.

    After Brahmanaspati, it goes to obscure goddesses such as Sinivali and Raka, then to a somewhat recognizable area for Rudra and the Maruts. It ends with another elaboration on this class. We find the hybrid in II.41:


    índravāyū niyútvataḥ


    Aside from likely more kernel-ish mentions, the fusion Indravayu does not seem to appear in Books Six and Three.


    There are additional references such as X.141:


    indravāyū bṛhaspatiṃ


    X.65:


    vṛṣabhā purīṣiṇendravāyū


    However, it is prominent and selected in given areas. As Vamadeva says, Vayu is the First Drinker:


    Vāyu, who are drawn by the Niyuts, and have Indra for charioteer...



    That is, compared to a basic Soma Offering, if you start thinking in terms of polytheistic deities, then one is to offer to Vayu before Indra. This may seem a little presumptuous if one had never heard of such a thing. What is happening? Well, one of the first statements must be that of Paruchhepa Daivodasi 1.139:


    ...we have recourse to Indra and to Vāyu; which doing, a new (hymn) has been addressed (by us) to the radiant navel (of the earth)...

    vivasvati nābhā


    Where is this coming from? Given his time frame, by far the largest number and most important references are from Vasistha in Book Seven. Also from Madhuchhandas Vaisvamitra, and then Medhatithi.


    The basis of it is certainly known to Bharadvaja:


    “The mighty maruts have seized upon him on the lap of the waters (in firmament), and men have acknowledged him as their adorable sovereign; mātariśvan, the messenger of the gods, has brought Agni vaiśvānara (hither) from the distant (sphere of the) sun.”


    Nodhas:


    Mātariśvan brought, as a friend, to Bhṛgu, the celebrated Vahni, the illuminator of sacrifice...


    Same thing is said by Visvamitra. This may perhaps credit the Bhrgus with "kindling", mathita, or nirmatha, etc., which could perhaps mean some kind of "Indra mantras" before the Vedic Offering.

    He also uses Aswins with Vayu and goes in to the following assembly:


    That Agni, bright, Vaisvanara, we invoke for help, and Matarisvan worthy of the song of praise;
    Brhaspati for man's observance of the Gods, the Singer prompt to hear, the swiftly-moving guest


    And there are many more expressions, such as Saryata Manava X.92:


    Vāyu, the friend of the Viśvedevās, the grandson of the waters...


    The root concept, or reference to Vayu or Matarisvan, is all over the place. In this case however, we do find a special class of Rishis in X.136:


    munayo vātaraśanāḥ


    This hymn is grouped with one by a nameless "Seven Sages", which we presume to be iterated here, in Wind Family, which would result in this group having names such as Etasa Vatarasana.

    At the same time, it defines the "Muni", which is that Sage who is like a "Kavi", meaning that he lives or dwells in that state which Rishi composers are able to access temporarily. This is mixed with the presence of "skyclad" or that is "naked". As is said of them in this area:


    by the might of their penance they become gods

    “Exhilarated by the sanctity of the Muni we have mounted upon the winds; behold, mortals, (in them)our forms!”

    “The Muni flies through the firmament, illumining all objects, the friend of each deity, appointed for pious works.”



    The same meaning is given by Vasistha and then by the Tamil Irimbithi Kanva. Additional references are in Book Ten:


    134 MAndhAtA YauvanASva
    135 KumAra YAmAyana
    136 JUti, VAtajUti, ViprajUti, VRSAnaka,
    Karikrata, EtaSa, RSyaSRnga (VAtaraSanas)

    possibly a form of Vatarasa descendant:

    168 Anila VAtAyana

    186 Ula VAtAyana


    This is a very short leash compared to Angirases.

    It is a power level comparable to what the Vasisthas say of themselves.

    Puranic sources usually say Kapinjali Ghrtaci is the wife of Vasistha, mother of Indrapramati, who in Vedic terms is the origin of the Aindra lineage. We are left with a "strong similarity" between Munis and Vasisthas. For what would seem to be a fairly ordinary word, its use is considerably restricted.


    Overall, it seems that Book Five highlights some rather reticent deities:


    Vayu, Dharma, Urvasi


    This is apparent in Atri's Visvedevas V.41-3. We find he also brings in the term "Asvini" for "wife of the Aswins", where no such thing is apparent, unless you attach the particular phase of Usas from the early events.

    Vayu is also perhaps significant in Rjisvan's Visvedevas VI.49-52.


    There is this peculiar description in VIII.26:


    Wonderful Vayu, Lord of Right, thou who art Tvastar's son-in-law,
    Thy saving succour we elect.

    To Tvastar's son-in-law we pray for wealth whereof he hath control:
    For glory we seek vayu, men with juice effused.



    And in Kutsa I.95:


    daśemaṃ tvaṣṭur janayanta garbham atandrāso yuvatayo vibhṛtram | tigmānīkaṃ svayaśasaṃ janeṣu virocamānam pari ṣīṃ nayanti ||


    “The vigilant and youthful Ten beget, through the wind, this embryo Agni, inherent (in all beings), sharp-visaged, universally renowned, shining among men; him they conduct (to every dwelling).”

    Ten: the ten regions of space, which generate lightning, as an embryo in the clouds, using the winds: agner hi vāyuḥ kāraṇam, vāyor agniḥ, wind is the cause of fire, fire of wind. Tvaṣṭuḥ = wind or its agency: diptānmadhyamād vāyoḥ sākaṣāt, the brilliant central proximity of wind.


    The idea is summarized in this comment on Dirghatamas:


    vāk, speech, was created fourfold, three kinds of which are in the three regions, the fourth amongst the paśus; the form on earth, associated with Agni is in the rathantara; the form in the firmament, associated with Vāyu, is in the Vāmadevya mantras; that which is in heaven, with Āditya, is Bṛhatī, or in the thunder (stanayitnau); whatever else was more than this was placed amongst the paśus, liṭ, animals; here the brāhmaṇas are implied: atha paśuṣu tato yā vāg atiricyate tām brāhmaṇeṣu adaduḥ; thus, the brāhmaṇas speak both languages, that of the gods and that of man


    This, then, perhaps with "skyclad", is the understanding of Vamadevya mantras:



    The name of a Sāma or Vedic chant, the cult of which involved promiscuous relations with women


    For one thing, this is not known in Rigvidhana. Secondly, this text has a "slant", it begins with ordaining 3.62.10 as "the Gayatri". There is nothing remarkable about this single verse. It is for Savitr, out of a row of numerous deities addressed here. More notably, this is the end of Book Three, and in the very last line, Sayana takes this as self-reflexive for Visvamitra:



    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): viśvāmitro jamādagnirvā


    Glorified by Jamadagni, sit down in the place of sacrifice (the altar)...


    Rigvidhana immediately goes to Om and the Seven Worlds. Nothing about this is apparent in the Rg Veda. Om is a placeholder syllable; I am not sure if I have ever found it at the beginning of a line.

    Saunaka is giving these Upanishadic ideas without even saying where it comes from, and then, his analysis of the Rg Veda is not particularly useful. I would say it is actually bad, if this is inserted in a Purana as representational of the Veda, it's very non-descript.

    Vayu of course makes sense as the generator of Lightning, along with which, as "vital air" of a person, the "nervous fluid" is of course electrical. In medieval times, lightning would be about the only way to express this. Now, we have found that the electrical modes are actually subordinate to a Plasma Individual, which in the Vedas I would suggest is Vaisvanara.

    The Speech would say "known by direct perception" rather than by the use of measuring devices and machines such as we use, unable to perceive it.


    Vaisvanara has perhaps a "conversational" attribution as a Rishi in X.79-80:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): agniḥ saucīko, vaiśvānaro vā, saptirvā vājambharaḥ


    And here for example is a compound subject in X.88:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): mūrdhanvānāṅgiraso vāmadevyo vā

    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): sūryavaiśvānarau


    Agni Vaisvanara is like an Apri Hymn. He has dedicated hymns as early as VI.7:


    mūrdhānaṃ divo aratim pṛthivyā vaiśvānaram ṛta ā jātam agnim | kaviṃ samrājam atithiṃ janānām āsann ā pātraṃ janayanta devāḥ ||

    “The gods have generated vaiśvānara Agni, as the brow of heaven, the unceasing pervader of earth, born for (the celebration of) sacrifice, wise, imperial, the guest of men, in whose mouth (is) the vessel (that conveys the oblation to the gods).”


    which as a genre is repeated and emphasized in all the Old Books. It is probably the most prevalent form of Agni after Sun/Lightning/Fire. It only has a noumenal meaning. It is not apparent unless one is performing its function.

    This is clearly the link between "mind and matter", or between one's brain consciousness and the deities on their own planes.

    This is what the Speech is doing and what it is propagating.

    The Rg Veda paints itself into a corner because the Three Cups of the Trikadruka have a double meaning, as Three Worlds and then again as Three Lights that are visible from the third or Heaven world.

    There is no difficulty in coming up with six entities, but, it does not seem to have Seven Worlds exactly as the Upanishad does.

    But this is describing a very strange and powerful experience which does not go into words very well, let alone lend itself to analysis. I would think that almost all Yoga is more or less its own commentarial system on further details over this basic idea.

    Buddhist Asanga uses Murdhana exactly as above, in a tone that sounds like it has been standard since untold antiquity. So I think that is what is going on here.


    Vayu of the Vamadevya Saman is understood as being the union of Air and Water. This is the explanation of seed syllables such as also in:


    Rathantara Sāma

    which have no meaning at all and are yet necessary for the musical tune


    So, no, it is not really a verbal meaning, but an association with a taste of experience, which comes from "getting" the intention of this music.

    The ultimate use of Vamadevya is for Mithuna.

    This is exactly the summary given on Greenmessage.

    This is basically the same as the comment in Dirghatamas I.164.45.


    The only hints about the song is it being used in a lineage of Rudra:


    7) shAntI sAmas

    It consists of pacifying sAma mantras including the famous vAmadevya sAma. It consists of 4 samayonIs and there respective sAmagAnas.( SAmaveda samhitA mantras no ) 616,682,683 and 684 .


    which is not remarkable to me from comparing it in the Samaveda Samhita.

    Again, the samhita itself is a bit of a lower rank, only having 99/2,200 original verses. It is almost entirely a copy of the Rg Veda, split up and shuffled and arranged musically. In other words, it is a different activity, which is less meaningful unless you look into the context of what it is pulling from. Fortunately, the Sage Vamadeva, himself, is sometimes remembered accurately to the Veda. He is said to be Atma discovering oneself as Sun and Manu up to Nirguna Brahman. This is just commenting on what he is actually saying.


    And he is referential to symbolic enemies:


    The
    destruction of these castles represents the
    sacrificer gaining control of the three sariras
    or the three gunas. cf. Vamadeva’s words in
    Rigveda IV. 29. 1. quoted in Aitareyopanishad
    which speaks of his escape from many iron
    cages.



    The study decidedly agrees Sama Veda is more supportive towards Grhapati or Householder existences, with the more extreme asceticism as fringe.


    Here is some better information from RL Kasyap 2006 such as the proportion of Rg Veda quotes used to compose the Samans:


    Vasishtha (43), Vamadeva (36), Bharadvaja (29), Medhatithi (29),
    Kanva (29), Vishvamitra (29), Gotama (20), Saubhari (18),
    Shunashepa (17), Jamadagni (13), Praskanva (13), Pragatha (8),
    Kashyapa (7), Vebha (5), Atri (4), Valakhilya (3).


    and:

    Vamadevya Saman: Based on SV (682, 683, 684) whose text is
    same as that RV (4.31.1,2,3) due to the Rishi Vamadeva.

    3. Brhat Sama: Not based on RV or SV yoni mantra.

    4. Rathantara: Based on SV (233, 680) or RV (7.32.22) to Indra



    an example of how its first ten mantras are assembled:


    Rishis: 1,2,7,9 Bharadvaja Barhaspatya; 3, Medhatithi Kanva; 5, Ushanah
    Kavayah; 6, Suditi, Purumidha, Angirasa (or others); 8, Vatsa Kanva; 10,
    Vamadeva; Metre: Gayatri; Deity: Agni.


    So, no, textually, the SV cannot tell us much, because it is a school of music working with none other than the Rg Veda itself.


    Also:

    Garuda's body is the Vamadevya Saman. Of his wings, one forms the Brihat Saman and the other forms the Rathantara Saman.



    The use of Vamadevya Saman has been taken as evidence of Sacred Prostitution based on Agricultural Mother Goddess probably since IVC.


    Why this would be defies imagination. The grafted verses are from an otherwise unremarkable Indra hymn, which, at the furthest, offers the question "what is the best Soma?". What is more interesting is that the SV as a whole looks like a refined picture of the Rg Veda as if Pragatha and Medhatithi Kanva had hugely shaped it, with the intent to keep Sunashepa from lapsing to obscurity. Kanva is also the main extant recension of White Yajur Veda also commented by Sayana. This has Sautrāmaṇī sacrifice where surā instead of soma juice is used.


    Vamadeva is far more interesting in other ways, and humanity has barely looked at how the Rg Veda might lend itself to the White Yajur Veda, which is so symbolic that it seems to reject the literal in almost every case. You are left with sexuality and prana. Is this more relevant towards the ordinary person's mind and life forces than distant or historical events, or arbitrary and compulsive ritualism, yes it probably is.


    It can hardly be overlooked that the Veda is graphically sexualized by Urvasi herself. It's not the Kama Sutra, but, it does have areas that are directly and/or perhaps symbolicly sexual.

    To the extent we are taking it "literally" as "scripture", it means a bona fide recording of the words. A lot of its expressions may be pure allegory, closer to Aesop's Fables. Large Numbers, Iron Cages, Wells, and so on, such as cows in caves, may be figurative and sometimes very colorful poetic devices for aspects of nature and energy and the like.

    The Alpha and Omega are practically given in Book Ten, since it has Brhaspati on Vak as very nearly a motto, and the actual Vak Devi Suktam requires an entire cosmology to serve its purpose. This includes Tvastr, which refers us to the first events, Vacaspati, and Honey Doctrine, transferred to the Aswins in a strange relationship to Usas. This most likely also has to do with Gotama Rahugana and a New Clock adopted by Divodasa.

    The presence of Agni Vaisvanara is most likely mirrored in modern terms by what we are learning to describe as the Plasma Individual.


    This is hyper-tangible to any individual, whereas the motion of that which appears permanent or fixed, such as the stars, is not.


    One view on how Sanskrit attempts to resolve changes in Astrological Dating:


    Quote Sarama is the Dog Star -Sirius

    Prajapathi was the bull, the Auriga constellation and is closely
    related to Aldebaran (Rohini). Prajapathi was the principal star (Indra) to mark the
    beginning of the year. He was the first Indra of Rig Veda. But later he was
    dethroned because of changes in heliacal risings.


    Indra was chief in the sense, he was principal star in indicating the forth
    coming rainy season, or beginning of the year. This role was played by different
    stars at different time. In the beginning it was the bull constellation Taurus and
    principal star Aldebaran. Arising of Aldebaran in heliacal rising position indicated
    the New Year as well as forth coming rains. This was the period of Indus people
    and they worshipped Aldebaran as Indra. Later Aldebaran got replaced with Canis
    Major (Dog Star) because of precessional movement of earth.

    Later that was also replaced and star Chitra was made beginning of the
    New Year. The conclusion is that the position of Indra was unstable and was
    replaced periodically. The original developers of Rig Veda knows the real position
    of Indra and gave due respect as rain predictor, but later the power of war god
    added to it. Later heliacal arising of Aries constellation also marked the beginning
    of the year, because of this frequent replacement phenomenon; Indra did not have a
    lasting influence to remain as a supreme god.

    Marduk replaces Inanna in Sumerian mythology in the
    same way Indra replaced mother goddess as the god of Auriga constellation in
    Indian mythology.

    That attempts to deal with the beginning of the rainy season. Sarama is with Vala or Indra II, so, it is not impossible this relates to a new precedence of Sirius over Aldebaran.


    However we found the Rg Veda also uses Simsumara, which is only fully described in Brahmanda Purana:


    ...literally meaning the killing of a Child

    at the end of the animal’s tail is situated Dhruva, the illustrious son of Prajapati Uttanapada

    Aouttanapaada as his upper jaw , Yagna Deva as the lower jaw and Dharma Deva as the head; Narayana as his heart; Ashwini Kumars as his forelegs; Varuna and Aryama were his inner thighs; Samvatsara is his private part and Mitra his anus; Mahendra, Maricha and Dhruva are in his tail.



    This means the star signs must be malleable. These deities must have moved from elsewhere, since Dhruva, the tip of the tail, means the North Pole Star.

    However, one of the most "fixed" stars is Citra--Spica, which moves about 1/10 of an arcsecond in 10,000 years.



    Surya Siddhanta has Citra's position wrong, but uses it to locate "Child of the Waters", Apam Vatsa. The Surya Siddhanta is the only text that mentions a third star, as if repeating that same line, Apas (or Apa), Delta Virginis.

    Other Indian works give the correct position.

    Mentioned right after Auriga.

    Translator is baffled why such faint stars as Prajapati (Brahmahrdaya) and Apa would be particularly revered.

    The Citra star is used to say the "year begins" at the sign, Asvini, whose cusp is defined as opposite Citra. As for the faint stars, for one there is:


    Brahma Rasi or Pushan (Auriga)

    The best of the charioteers. He drives his chariot (which holds the sun and is pulled
    by goats) across the heavens around Polaris. Capella or Brahma Hridaya is the main
    star in Auriga, the constellation of the goat-headed fire god.



    Then it should be readily obvious the others have to do with Agni Hidden in Water, and then the Waters on their own, we have just traced as divinely-inspired happiness that is more emphatically bundled as a subject in Yajur Veda. Female Apah is dominant in Atharva Veda. We don't know why this is assigned a nearly imperceptible star, rather than, say, a quadrant of the universe; we know our attention is called to two entities in proximity of Tvastr. This already resembles what we just posted on, for example, Lightning.


    Because the Clock definitely has a Day Zero as per R Roy:


    Quote It is mentioned in the verses 6–8 of the Yajus Vedāṅga Jyotiṣa that the winter solstice was at the beginning of the Śraviṣṭhā (Dhaniṣṭhā) nakṣatra and the summer solstice was at the midpoint of the Āśleṣā nakṣatra. Based on this observation, the Vedāṅga Jyotiśa is dated between 1150 BCE to 1400 BCE.

    From my research work, the original boundaries of nakṣatras are different from currently accepted positions and I have dated the observation to ~1850 BCE.

    Vedāṅga Jyotiṣa has 5-year yugas compared to the 4.32 million years Mahāyuga system of Sūrya Siddhānta.

    this must have been dealing with older changes and new assignments:


    In the Rigvedic hymn
    1,24, which is ascribed to Śunaḥśepa, there seems
    to be a reference to the pole star and its connection
    with the god Varuṇa: in verse 7, Varuṇa is said to
    hold a heavenly banyan tree up in the sky.




    In 3000 BC, a faint star called Thuban in the constellation of Draco was the North Star. Polaris did not become the North Star until about AD 500. Pytheas in ca. 320 BC described the celestial pole as devoid of stars.


    Thuban was the Pole Star from 3942 BCE to 1793 BCE...Thuban was closest to the pole in 2830 BCE, coming closest to the north celestial pole out of all the other pole stars...900 years after its closest approach, was just 5° off the pole. However, Thuban was among the faintest pole stars. Thuban was preceded by Edasich (Iota Draconis) or Tau Herculis, and succeeded by the brighter Kochab (Beta Ursae Minoris), one of the stars of the Little Dipper, and the fainter Kappa Draconis.


    Now, if we trace out the Simsumara sign described by the Purana, Uttanapada is Kochab, the upper jaw of a creature with Polaris at the end of its tail:






    While not being a very close Conjunction:


    Kochab was known as the pole star and sometimes called Polaris between 1700 BCE and 300 CE. The closest the north celestial pole came to Kochab was 7 degrees.


    The current Dhruva, his son, makes sense by taking the position, the new pole star, which legitimizes a Puranic adjustment. Vedanga Jyotish is recognizing its own changes, which are no longer valid a thousand years or more in its own future. The procession of Rishis, or Rksas, that affect timing and directions is known as Arundhati Darsan:


    Quote “ṛṣiṇām arundhati” in Taittiriya Aranyakā-3.9.2.

    Nirukta says ṛśi raśmayaḥ, the one who pulls. At one point of time during no pole star condition the observation via Nyāya succumbed till Arundhati and interestingly, it was Arundhati who was pulling all the Riśis.

    There was no Pole Star for 5,000 years between Tau Herculis and Thuban/Alpha Draconis (ca. 11091 BCE and 4508 BCE).

    King Brihadratha observes the Pole star drifting away which is an example of observation of precession of earth’s axis in our scriptures. The complication arises that if the Arundhatidarśana – observation had been so mandatory, then there were times when no visible polestar in the vicinity of the pole point, i.e, earth’s rotational axis was available. Then who became the night guides for the direction “north” if there were no polestars.

    Arundhatidarśananyāya* is a Sanskrit maxim used to infer “the unknown from that which is known”. The maxim is named after Arundhati as the faded star Arundhati is identified only after pointing the brighter star Vasishtha.


    So, with respect to IVC, it would make sense that the Simsumara and Dhruva assignments were given to Thuban and Draco. This becomes unsatisfying around 1,800 B. C. E.. And then it seems the same legend is moved to a new and more appropriate location, Ursa Minor or Little Dipper and most likely Kochab and Sanskrit Varuna making the Paths. Vedanga Jyotish and Divodasa could easily both mark this moment.

    Because it is also around the beginning of the Age of Aries, this may be reckoned on the Asvini sign, although the text only specifically refers to solstices. It is nearly impossible to conceive it might not be dealing with a full set of Naksatras when recorded.


    Objectively it still appears the Rg Veda begins with the fallout from:


    Elam and Meluhha join forces around 2,270 B. C. E. and fight Rimush, son of Sargon, who appears to invent mass slaughter. Eventually Akkadia is in insurrection and droughts come in. There is reason to suspect normal relations descended to banditry. In that case you would need Mandhata and the others that follow.


    Then, it is said the ejection of Sambara leads to Kirat King Yalambar, whose era was mistaken by counting from the Licchavi Dynasty beginning with Manadeva in 432. But this does not take into account the power vacuum. The Kirats were defeated and overthrown in 158. Then if you take their counting for their own dynasty, it began in 1779 B. C. E..

    By the time we find the Aswins representing a community in Syria in 1,330 B. C. E., we can be pretty sure this had bloomed out of its nascent stages quite some time ago. I think there are multiple clues, which, if not all correct, realistically place Divodasa around the 1,800s B. C. E., with nothing blatantly to contradict this.


    Physically, it looks like a strong likelihood that the ethos and possibly some myths or mantras of Vedic caliber had been around in the Age of Taurus.

    This would be pre-Vedic 2,500 B. C. E. Mohenjodaro Seal and Nausharo pottery:






    We do not think that is a chariot wheel because the Mehrgarh Wheel of ca. 3,000 B. C. E. is worked in nearly pure elemental copper and appears to be its own kind of representational object. Mehrgarh is considered seminal to the birth of the Indus Valley Civilisation. It saw an explosion of metal working techniques, as Shereen Ratnagar has pointed out, and sophisticated pyro-technology, working raw materials to create faience, stoneware, jewelery, and seals, researched by J.M Kenoyer, Massimo Vidale, and Heather Miller, amongst many others.

    The vessel shows the arrival of a Peacock.

    See Figure 2.9 from Harappa Cemetery H for:


    ...one peculiar decoration in this later Harappan grave pottery, namely, the peacock
    (Fig. 2.9) containing a recumbent human figure within the disc that forms the bird's body.

    Thus, the person, soul, after death, Gandharva Sattva.

    Quote In RV, x. 10. 4-5, Yama and his twin sister Yami the first humans are
    born of the Gandharva and the, water-woman (apya yosa) being fashioned by Tvastr,
    even in the womb, to be husband and wife. In x. 85, the Gandharva seems to have special
    rights over all women, especially the virgins. This partly accounts for the apya kamyani
    of x. 95.10, and the child born from the waters, janiso apo naryah. Of course, there is a
    dear physiological exotic factor also present, Psychoanalysts have maintained that
    "drawn from the waters" is an old representation for just ordinary human birth.

    Yes, of course, or it is the State of Being in a Womb, the point of which is a state of consciousness--do you remember it?

    Before this, the peacock-encased Bardo being?


    Cemetery H around 1,900 B. C. E. replaced IVC wooden coffins with cremation or decarnation into jars and:


    ...peacocks with hollow bodies and a small human form inside, which has been interpreted as the souls of the dead, and a hound that can be seen as the hound of Yama, the god of death.

    Rice became a main crop.

    Apparent breakdown of the widespread trade of the Indus civilization, with materials such as marine shells no longer used.


    These are some five hundred years after Nausharo:






    Also from the Nausharo provenance, there is a regularity of Pipal Leaf or Aswattha and females with Tika marks.

    Pipal Ceramic Goblet equal to a brandy snifner and the ubiquity of this design, almost representational of All Speech.

    Pottery fragment from Nausharo, Pre –
    Harappan period (2600-2550BC)








    Nausharo: female figurines. Wearing sindhur at the parting of the hair. Hair painted black, ornaments golden and sindhur red. Period 1B, 2800 – 2600 BCE.

    Those are supported by Hingula Mata and emigration to Gujarat ca. 1,600 B. C. E..

    That these relics are rather old suggests there may have been an Indic or Sanskritic culture that the Vedas simply arose in. Its Bull must have been Aldebaran and Krttika. It probably was brewing a product called Soma.

    Ongoing northwestern incursions can be seen where Farmer on pp. 43-44 has the famous M-1390 round seal and then also points out *four* examples of an Eagle Glyph--here with a Unicorn and Soma Press in the latest Harappa 3C period. The finding is that the seals are static, very nearly the same across a wide area of distribution for about 700 years, and then the late appearance of Bactrian influence right before the system stops.


    By some strange means, the Veda has reversed this Eagle and delivered the Mitanni Peacock:


    Quote Asian elephant skeletal remains have been found in West Asia from 1800 BCE onwards (around the same time as the arrival of Mitannis) and not before that. If Mitannis brought these Elephants then they could've only brought them from India since India is the only Indo-European land that has Elephants.

    This fits in perfectly with the fact that peacocks and the peacock motif also appear prominently in West Asia along with the Mitanni. This was brilliantly presented in a paper by Burchard Brentjes as far back as 1981, but the paper has, for obvious reasons, been soundly neglected by most academic scholars discussing related issues. As Brentjes points out: "there is not a single cultural element of Central Asian, Eastern European or Caucasian origin in the archaeological culture of the Mittanian area [….] But there is one element novel to Iraq in Mittanian culture and art, which is later on observed in Iranian culture until the Islamisation of Iran: the peacock, one of the two elements of the 'Senmurv', the lion-peacock of the Sassanian art. The first clear pictures showing peacocks in religious context in Mesopotamia are the Nuzi cylinder seals of Mittanian time [7. Nos 92, 662, 676, 856, 857 a.o.].

    There are two types of peacocks: the griffin with a peacock head and the peacock dancer, masked and standing beside the holy tree of life. The veneration of the peacock could not have been brought by the Mittanians from Central Asia or South-Eastern Europe; they must have taken it from the East, as peacocks are the type-bird of India and peacock dancers are still to be seen all over India. The earliest examples are known from the Harappan culture, from Mohenjo-daro and Harappa: two birds sitting on either side of the first tree of life are painted on ceramics.

    Copied from Dharmapedia article.

    Quote Thus we have three very distinct animal species native to India - the elephant, the peacock and the domesticated Indian zebu cattle - appearing in West Asia exactly coinciding with the presence and activities of the Mitanni in West Asia at the time, thus confirming that the Mitanni people were migrants from India to West Asia.

    Not necessarily "the people" but *some* to whom Vedic Sanskrit was normal.


    What seems to be the case is that the "Eagle" culture lapsed from Bactria and the symbol only continues towards the west.


    To say that "Vedic purity" lapsed in India, there probably was not much centralization in a by-then large area. It is hard to imagine any mantras in the Rg Veda being much newer than about 1,600 B. C. E.. It is likely there are some newer Atharva Veda pieces, but not enough of the kind to tell us what was really going on. The Brahmanical commentaries are probably already five hundred years after the community of Rishis. Buddha's response was that some of them had caused the main usefulness of the mantras to become lost. It seems like they have created an institution of jobs, each remembering something interesting that is legitimate in the Veda, while being selectively omissive and having their own interpretations which do not seem in keeping.


    The Trikadrukas are a type of invocative and evocative white magic similar to Theurgy.


    As was shown from another reviewer, the "powers" of the Aswins according to Kutsa:


    śacībhir


    Are their shaktis according to Vasistha:


    śaktaṃ śacīpatī śacībhiḥ ||


    Lakshmi-esque emanations of Usas according to Bharadvaja:


    śriye duhitā sūryasya


    as she mounts their chariot.

    Again, that simply links to "the maidens" and Rjrasva, etc. as Kutsa describes it.



    What happened to Indra was done by Saci Paulomi X.159:


    my husband must conform to my will, as I am victorious over my rivals


    “Triumphant, I conquered these my rivals so that I might rule this hero and his people.”



    Rg Veda clearly has Indra Shakti and Aswins Shakti and no, it is not quite in detail or explain much--there she is. And, oh, suddenly she's in charge of Indra. Just like that. The first time we heard of him, Mandhata kept referring to his mother, and now towards the end it is his wife.


    It does not have elaborate metaphysical terms, such as Prakrti, Akasa, or Avyakta. It does have basic ones, divine/heavenly, mind/mental primarily. In fact one of its strong points is to contrast this and the other world. Instead of those later terms, there are several expressions of Vyoman (sky, heaven, zero, ether, milky way), which is almost always expressed "parame vyoman", meaning the superlative, the ultimate. This has references such as Vasistha to Vaisvanara:


    Born in the highest heaven, you ever drink (Soma) like Vāyu...


    Trita:


    Non-existent, and existent (is Agni) in the supreme heaven, in the birth-place of Dakṣa, and in the presence of Aditi



    Vamadeva:


    Bṛhaspati, when first being born in the highest heaven of supreme light


    Dirghatamas:



    this Brahmā is the supreme heaven of (holy) speech



    Yama:


    Be united with the Pitṛs, with Yama, and with the fulfilment of your wishes in the highest heaven


    Unmistakably it is dealing with what is real to the mind. Again Brhaspati and Brahma must be roughly equivalent, i. e., the mantrin or practitioner of mantra. A somewhat successful one. Meaning that you begin to duplicate the experience. Continuity of consciousness across multiple worlds. This with spiritual value and happiness.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Myth and Reality compared to our review; Vasistha and Usas; Apsarases



    There were two important components of our argument or thesis that come from the same place, or are found there.

    It is fairly modern, but, old enough that it seems I have come past this somewhere before in my life. The pictures I posted recently are Funeral Jars.

    I am on the leery side of interpreting picture-writing, such as the Kashmiri "sun and a half"--I don't see how we can be sure that proves an observation of a supernova, let alone to the point of building a whole thesis on it.

    Nausharo changes this because we readily see things that match Vedic Speech, that require no interpretation.

    This appears the same in the final layer of Harappa some five hundred years later, which is where we find a specific image that I cannot post, figure 2.9 from the pdf of DD Kosambi 1962.

    He thinks that "Harappa" is Vedic "Hariyupia", but we have no reason to associate "Harappa" as any particular ancient name of the place.


    However, the work is a pretty good start on what is certainly found as a pre-occupation of the Veda, that is, a hypostasis, quest, or outright eruption of goddess Usas. And it can readily be seen this is *not* a paradigm of Puranic tradition. So we are told about how flat and disregarded the Rg Veda actually was:


    Quote To Muller, India owes the first complete edition of the
    Rgveda, the circumstances being explained in detail in the very book cited : the Veda was
    generally misquoted by teamed Brahmins who used this method at will to refute any
    inconvenient legal decision supported by the Manusmirti or similar works, and even to
    justify the practice of widow-burning (sati). The East India Company's officers forbade
    the latter practice, but wanted as far as possible to yield to Brahminism, as it was always
    a convenient tool for subjection of the 'natives'. So came into existence Muller's edition of
    the Rksamhita, giving the Brahmins themselves a complete text which hardly any of them
    possessed in Bengal and none could have edited there at that time. One may note that it
    was the Germans who took and maintained the lead in Indic studies, though one should
    have expected British scholars to occupy that position. The British attitude is shown by
    Colebrooke's sneer against the Vedas, "They are too voluminous for a complete
    translation of the whole; and What they contain, would hardly reward the labour of the
    reader; much less, that of the translator."

    This work scrutinizes Pururavas and Urvasi, for which the Germans collected eight variants of the story--none of which are the Rg Veda version. It is so different that:


    Kalidasa could not accept it for his romance.


    The "least distorted" version is perhaps the minor addition:


    Quote Vayu Purana 1.2.13-21, which is copied with only trifling variants by Brahmanda 1.2.14-23,
    gives the exact manner in which Pururavas came to die. His greed for treasure was never
    satisfied. Once, while hunting, he stumbled upon a golden altar made by Visvakarman at
    which the seers of the Naimisa forest were sacrificing, and tried to loot that. The angry
    sacrifices struck him with the sacrificial grass which had become as Indra's vajra; so
    crushed, the king yielded up the ghost.

    Instead of romance, when considering the original verses, a different question comes up:


    Quote ...what is the original meaning of 'became a Gandharva? This could not have happened
    while Pururavas was alive, for the Gandharva at the time of the Brahmanas is recognized
    as a spirit who could possess women, say the spirit that caused their hysteria...


    For a Buddhist the Gandharva is a condition of existence between death and rebirth.

    I found that out independently. It for example is in a quote by Naro (cf. Wayman 1962), which, in the Buddhist view, means it came from the prior and less-than-adequately-documented lineages. But it is the *same* as in the Rg Veda, which appears to be the *same* as centuries of prior art. Naro says "Gandharva Sattva" in commentary based from Manjushri. It is in the Amitabha or Lotus Family. Therefor its primary vehicle is Peacock.

    I don't see how they are doing anything but refining a practice based on those Funeral Jars.

    But the distortions of the "older" Brahmanical lineages border on the illiterate:


    Quote Oldenberg himself shows at the end of his discussion that many details of the
    Satapatha story arise from misread or badly understood phrases in the veda. For instance,
    the nymphs have been turned by the SB into swans from the rgvedic simple atayo na...


    The conclusion is that the original dialogue had become incomprehensible by the time of the
    Brahmana, and if these very able German scholars understood the SB account better, it
    was only because that account was manufactured specially to provide such
    understanding, in place of that which had already been lost. Whether prose passages were
    lost therewith or not is immaterial, though the possibility seems to me very remote. There
    is a great deal in the Satapatha and other Brahmanas which shows to what extent Vedic
    rites had gained currency and the form in which they wore practised. But unconvincing
    prose stories inserted as explanations—for the whole of the Brahmanic literature is meant
    as commentary to ritual practice—and, fantastic etymologies show that in many cases the
    origin of the rite (and consequently the real meaning of a hymn) had been forgotten, or
    was something entirely different from the modes of contemporary society.


    We must try to unearth for ourselves the original ritual
    whose lapse had led the SB to account so badly for riks fixed by the Bahvrcas' memory.

    Well, I am mainly trying to unearth the Vedic mantras, which of course now we can do, and, we realize that we have to take *all* Brahmanic and Puranic literature very selectively, that it may *occasionally* fill in some blanks in a useful manner, but otherwise must be disregarded.



    He did not trace this in the Veda:


    Quote Pururavas addresses his wife as ghore, which means the grim or dreaded one; used for
    gods like Indra; hardly a lover's term, though later this is taken as denoting her hardheartedness. But he is emphatic that if their mantras remain unspoken, there will be no
    benefit in distant days; that is, the chant (and action) is meant to confer upon the audience
    the benefits associated with, all fertility rites.

    Actually, it is an aspect of Sarasvati, who in turn is paramount as "Waters", which of course has to do with coupling.

    Moreover, the hymn begins lamenting a lack of Speech, as to why their times had not been all that great.




    He does notice one similarity:


    Quote The assurance
    'thou dost not die’ is given in almost identical terms to the sacrificed, cooked, and eaten
    horse in RV, i. 162. 21 na wi u etan mriyase. In fact, the horse is going to the gods, freed
    from all his earthly troubles and brings victory to the sacrifices. We should not be
    surprised to find Pururavas assured at the very end that he is going straight to heaven...

    It's just universally and constantly true. No act of "sacrifice" is required; death is simply a basis for meditation.


    On Pururavas:

    Quote He is mentioned in just one other place in the whole of the Rgveda : tvam agne manave dyam
    wasayah pururavase sukrte sukrttarah (i. 31. 4), where the word manave may imply a
    separate favour by Agni to Manu, and not necessarily that Pururavas is a son or
    descendant of Manu (or just 'the human' Pururavas)...

    No, it is not quite clear that Pururavas is a "person", let alone "the first person". He may be a mental unit that helps move the rite of Agni into the human mind.




    This is also correct:


    Quote Sikhandin, which means "crested", and might be used of a peacock, is given as name or appellation
    of a Gandharva in AV. iv. 37.7...

    He realizes the original has become submerged:


    Quote The most important of Urvasi associations has been lost in most translations. This is
    with Usas, the goddess of the dawn and possibly the brhaddiva of v. 41. 19. In x. 96.2,
    Urvasi says that she has passed over like the first of the dawns, and this teems a mere
    simile. The problem then is to explain away the uso in 4, and this is done in many
    different ways, none convincing. The explanation I offer is that Urvasi has readied the
    status of an Usas, and that this status is that of a mother- goddess, not of a mere goddess
    of the dawn. That was HER destiny, as being sacrificed was her lover's. We proceed to
    consider this in detail...


    Pretty close. It is actually Brhaddiva that compounds Usas and Saranyu.

    But at least you get a shifting, mobile role, something more than just a pretty name for a favorite statue. It is not just word play, it is an attempt to bridge subtle factors of nature and psychology. It is meaningless if you are not starting in terms of mind and life wind.


    In the 60s at least they could deal with nudity, which we have seen has been "censored" by most of the older translators, as if they could not bring themselves to deal with it, or, that no such thing was possible in spirituality. Here is something that may also appear in "international animal glyphs":


    Quote Perhaps v. 80.4-6 contain the oftenest repeated mention of this self-exposure of
    the dawn goddess, but her revealing her bosom and charms to men is quite common.
    Remarkably enough, this performance is seen often on Syro-Hittite seals (W. H. Ward :
    Sect Cylinders of Western Asia. chap. L) where the Indian humped bull is shown : at
    times as her pedestal. (Fig. 2.3) There is no shame attached to this : nodha ivavir akrta
    priyani, like a girl with yet immature breast...

    Sure enough, this Disrobed Goddess is Mitanni:


    Sometimes, as in fig. 9I3, this goddess stands over the bull led by Teshub.


    She combines with Winged Gate Goddess:


    This cylinder is particularly interesting for the arch, with a sort of wings, over the goddess, which connects it with
    another form of the goddess...In fig. 930
    she is quite nude, in the usual attitude, and stands on her bull. In this rare case,
    as in fig. 915, the arch has two wings at the top.


    Only some of those bulls are humped, but, that is enough to qualify. These are distinct images out of hundreds, such as the Etana or Bird Man, all kinds of griffins, and so on, the Zebu has obviously been selected in these Mitanni findings.

    In 1962, he would not have been aware of the magnitude of the Mitanni implications. Same Dawn seen in a new light. Exactly.



    Syrian seal: Naked goddess on the back of a bull, lifting her skirt, under a winged guilloche





    Similarly:


    Shala is described specifically as a rain-giving breast. In Syrian glyptic of the second quarter of the second millennium BCE, the goddess frequently appears lifting her skirt with diagonal protrusions (Figures 7-9), reminiscent of her Anatolian counterpart ( Figure 5). She is depicted with the storm god in a smiting stance, holding a spear, or a snake or plant symbolizing his power to generate vegetation. ...


    That is at least relatively close to the Veda.




    Although Kosambi did not quite connect "Brhaddiva", the goddess is not "simple" but very "reactive":


    Quote She is the sun's wife on occasion, as in
    vii. 75.5 suryasya yosa, but perhaps his sister and also his mother iii. 61.4 svarjananti.
    Yet this is not enough to explain her importance. In i. 113.19, she is the mother of all the
    gods, a numen of Aditi : mata devanam aditer anikam. Her real status slips out in a most
    important reference, which is in a hymn dedicated to Agni (iv. 2 . 15).

    adha matur usasa sapta viprah jayemahi prathma vedhaso nrn
    divas-putra angiraso bhavema adrim rujema dhaninam sucantah.

    "We seven sages shall generate (or be born) from mother Usas, the first men sacrificers;
    we shall become Angirasas, sons of heaven, we shall burst the rich mountain, shining
    forth." Usas was, therefore, a high mother goddess, literally Mater Matuta. How did she
    come to lose this position ?

    Wilson can't tell us because his version loses the apparent sacred names and reduces her to material.

    The Angirases then successfully:


    ...proceeded to (the region of) pure light, and, reciting prayers and dispersing gloom, they made manifest the purple (kine).


    "Hidden cattle" are a necessity:


    “Fierce (Agni), when (Indra) proclaimed the near presence of the herd of the kine of the divine (Aṅgirasas) as a herd of cattle in a well-stored stall, the progeny of mortals were thereby enabled (to perform pious acts), and the master of the family rendered competent to (provide for) the increase of posterity and (the support of) dependants.”

    Griffiths on IV.2.15:


    May we, seven sages first in rank, engender, from Dawn the Mother, men to be ordainers.
    May we, Angirases, be sons of Heaven, and, radiant, burst the wealth-containing mountain.


    He is talking about "Indra II", where it may be said that Indra "gives birth" to Usas because she is trapped there with the cattle. Vamadeva is doing a "system of Dadhyan" that had spread "everywhere". The tone of this hymn is the ability of the Kavis has entered the dwellings of men or mortals. Something slightly different, a generation later than Indra I with Dadhyan and the Aswins.

    This is a more complex scenario, because, even with the release of Dawn, there is another escapade which hearkens to Divodasa and forty years along the Beas River.


    He finds the wreck of Usas's car in:


    vii. 79.3

    ii. 15.6, x.138.5, x.73.6, but with greatest detail
    in iv. 30.8-11


    and probably should re-consider the event in the light of unexpurgated Pururavas:


    when the Bull (Indra) had rammed her

    sim sisnathad vrsa


    and yes, if we look at Seals, we can find a Bull doing this:


    ...rammed night and day by the (lover's) member.

    (Urv.) "Thrice a day didst thou ram me with the member, and impregnated me
    unwilling (as I was). Pururavas, I yielded to thy desires; O hero, then wert thou king of
    my body".


    Would that be vaguely in keeping with a naked girl over the Bull in more proliferous seals?

    Quite possibly disallowing the IVC Tiger Goddess to continue?

    There, she is of course talking about entering the mortal world, which means for four years. With this, I would think we have to slow down and carefully contemplate the nature of "pururavas". For example, Sri Aurobindo de-personalized it, and calls "manu pururavas" the "mind of many cries". Something like the psychology of suffering, which could be in anyone.



    Quote There is only one more reference to Urvasi in the Rgveda (iv. 2.18; AV. xviii. 3.23),
    just after the striking mention of Usas with the seven seers:

    a yutheva ksumati pasvo akhyad devanam yaj janim anty ugra
    martanam cid urvasir akrpran vrdhe cid arya uparasyayoh

    The Urvasis are here in the plural; ayu can again be taken as the legendary son, or some
    adjective.

    "The Urvasis have taken pity upon
    mortals, even to helping the later kinsman Ayu".

    The other translators don't notice her, e. g.:


    There they moaned forth their strong desire for mortals, to aid the True, the nearest One, the Living.


    Something is missing. We go from the premise that the Veda is *not* like a Brahmanical commentary, that it makes more sense to *ignore* being told something like "Pururavas and Urvasi" is "supplemental" because it is in the "late" Book Ten. It is more the case that the Rg Veda would not make sense *unless* Urvasi had already been relevant to the Ikshvaku Vasisthas.


    I am not sure how you can bypass "arya" and "urvasi" in such close quarters. In this place, Yaska explains her name:



    Nirukta 5.13: urvaśiḥ = apsaras, i.e. urvabhya aśnuta;or, urubhyām aśnuta, who pervades or proceeds from the thigh. The legend is that Urvaśi was born from the thigh of Nārāyaṇa



    I am not sure about her birth, either--the legend would have to come from the Brahmanas. It is just his linguistics that matter, i. e. it is at least correct she is like "aurva" or "of the thigh".


    On a textual basis, we would say her latest and most magnificent composition is from Atri as Urvasi Brhaddiva.


    Otherwise, there is a comment of the name Aurvaseya, for Agastya or the son of Pururavas, in this case using the mother's name such as "Ausija" appears to do.

    She is also commented into Vasistha with the Apsaras where he later calls himself:


    vasiṣṭhorvaśyā



    At the very least, then, in Rg Veda, "Aurvaseya" is equivalent to Vasistha or Agastya. As far as we can tell, he is named for an original/legendary Vasistha who could perhaps be prior to Atharvan. In any case, it is independent or Gangetic, the point being a wide merger with Haryana, and again at least an open door to south India.







    I personally had not thought of this point he seems to be making:


    Quote Usas is emphatically the daughter of heaven as both commentators and translators
    point out here; the progeny are the Angirasas. In iii. 31.1. seq. we have much the same
    theme, as also in x. 61.7, while in i. 164.33, the daughter has become the Earth.

    In other words, we thought Angirases were more or less self-made by the practice of Agni--but it looks like they may have had a headstart as well. Usas has a role in producing Angirases, whereas Agni "is" Angiras.


    The idea seems constrained to Vamadeva; X.61 is indirect, talking about the birth of Brahma. More interestingly, the Visvamitra hymn listed is where he refers to:


    aiṣīrathīḥ kuśiko


    This begins with a technical metaphor about property.

    Son-in-law means a man has only daughters, and his estate becomes the affair of a grandson.


    Eventually it gets to Vamadeva's expression on:


    sapta viprāḥ


    “The seven intelligent ages (the aṅgirasas) having ascertained that (the cows) were concealed in the strong (cavern), propitiated (Indra) by mental devotion; they recovered them all by the path of sacrifice; for Indra, knowing (their pious acts), and offering them homage, entered (the cave).”


    It may be similar, but you do not see any dependency on Usas. This must be Indra II because it includes:


    Saramā = vāk, speech


    and a quaint expression:

    vipratamaḥ


    “The most sage (Indra), desirous of the friendship of the (aṅgirasas), went to the cave, and the mountain yielded its contents to the valiant (deity), aided by the youthful Maruts, equally wishing (to conciliate the sages); the destroyer (of the asuras) recovered (the cattle), and immediately aṅgirasas became his worshipper.”


    “The aṅgirasas, with minds intent on their cattle, (sat down to worship Indra) with hymns, following the road to immortality; great was their perseverance by which they sought for months to accomplish (their ends).”



    In this telling, Indra releases:


    the sun, the dawn, the earth and fire


    except it is not earth--the ground, because the term used is:


    path--gatum


    1. A Gand'harba or celestial quirister. 2. The Kokila or Indian cuckoo. 3. A large black bee. 4. A singer.

    Gātu (गातु).—[gā + tu] (ved.), m. Motion, course (of life), Chr. 297, 16 = [Rigveda.] i. 112, 16.

    Gātu (गातु).—1. [masculine] ([feminine]) motion, course, way, path; progress, welfare, refuge, abode, space.


    Visvamitra is somewhat unclear because he repeatedly uses the name "Vrtrahan", but, nowhere in this piece does he say anything about Vala or Brhaspati. Instead he emphasizes the Marut Gana several times.


    In this way, he does not sound like he is dealing with the "impulse" of it--such as Ayasya--but the aftermath. He mentions the existence of Usas, and no actual use of her.


    We can search up a little more than what Kosambi published.

    Usas is increasingly dramatized. Anga Aurava only says she "left" the car. Gauriviti merely mentions her in another story where he names Indra's mother:


    dhaniṣṭhā


    part of his request:


    may you bring back the Aśvins


    Then Indra defeats the Dasyus with Maya. He throws in "like the car of Usas" as an image, while the tale is:


    War-loving Namuci thou smotest, robbing the Dasa of his magic for the Rsi.
    For man thou madest ready pleasant pathways, paths leading as it were directly God-ward.


    Like birds of beauteous wing the Priyamedhas, Rsis, imploring, have come nigh to Indra:
    Dispel the darkness and fill full our vision deliver us as men whom snares entangle.


    It makes sense, because as the grandson of Vasistha, the Usas car story would be from his distant past. Visvamitra takes her existence for granted, without necessarily giving the story, and now a casual reference means taking the story for granted.


    Vamadeva gives four verses on this. In the first one she is "killed or slain". This cannot be too particularly dangerous, as in the next verse she is Enriched:


    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): indrauṣāśca


    Something is going on that puts them together. What goes on here is some kneading and grinding and then in the next verse she is:


    Rammed


    and finally Vamadeva makes it plain where the scene happens:


    vipāśy ā |


    So, even Yaska is unnecessary because the Rg Veda itself specifies where the event of "Arjika country" takes place.


    The other suggestion at VII.79 says nothing about a car, wrecked or otherwise. It is even more powerful because Vasistha is praising her:


    Uṣas has dawned upon the paths of men, awaking the five classes of human beings...


    her epithets:


    uṣā indratamā

    aṅgirastamā


    spontaneously she "has" Indra's accomplishment:


    “Grant us as much wealth as you have bestowed upon thine adorers when (formerly) praised by them; you whom (your worshippers) welcomed with clamour, (loud as the bellowing) of a bull, when you had set open the doors of the mountains (where the stolen cattle were confined).”

    The succeeding hymn is something like a family dedication:


    víprāsaḥ

    The pious Vasiṣṭhas, first (of all worshippers) awaken with prayers and praises (each succeeding) dawn...



    In other Vasistha hymns, she is tied in to "threefold" as Gharmasa Usas:


    Three fertilize the worlds with genial moisture: three noble Creatures cast a light before them.
    Three that give warmth to all attend the morning. All these have they discovered, these Vasisthas.



    And there is another interesting device. His Visvedevas hymn uses four Indra hybrids except for the following. He is talking about the third world, unknown to man, known to Vishnu:


    janáyantā sū́ryam uṣā́sam agním


    who has "generated" Usas and the others.



    This hybrid is reckoned against Sambara:


    índrāviṣṇū dṛṃhitā́ḥ šámbarasya



    And here is another unexpected expression from VII.55:


    vāstoṣ pate

    arjuna sārameya

    bright Son of Sarama

    Sarama's Son, retrace thy way

    Be on thy guard against the boar, and let the boar beware of thee.


    In another verse with Tvastr:


    Rodasī and Varuṇānī


    which is exemplary, since otherwise "wife of Varuna" is only mentioned by Medhatithi.


    In a list by Grtsamada, possibly as phases of the moon

    And with the unique Asvini by Pratiksatra Atreya, which i. e. is to say "Aswins' Shakti", which is back to Usas.


    There is no Vedic "Varuni" except as an adjective in a comment:


    Varuṇa = from vṛ, to surround, encompassing the wicked with his bond; he is also the lord of the night: vāruṇi rātrī (Taittirīya Brāhmaṇa 1.7.10.1); Soma is two-fold, the product of the earth and the moon, as a divinity in heaven. The Aśvins are so termed either from having horses (aśvavantau), or from pervading all things, the one with moisture, the other with light; they are heaven and earth, they are day and night, the sun and the moon; aitihāsika, traditionists; they were two virtuous princes (Nirukta, 12,1)



    That sounds like dual combinations of numerous deities, such as Rodasi, or Usasanakta. As if they can wield any dual role, or are the conflict of opposites in any situation. Such pairs of opposites evidently have Usas as shakti.


    As for their mother, the "Daughter of Tvastr, Wife of the Sun" in her aspect as "Saranyu" appears to have an archaic meaning.

    Again, Seven Sages or "Sapta Vipra" is folded in to this apparently difficult translation from Nodhas:


    Mid shout, loud shout, and roar, with the Navagvas, seven singers, hast thou, heavenly, rent the mountain;
    Thou hast, with speeders, with Dasagvas, Indra, Sakra, with thunder rent obstructive Vala.


    They have stumbled over this category:


    saraṇyúbhiḥ


    Something like that would normally be taken as "seed, lineage, gotra" of Saranyu. As also used in III.32:


    ...thou with the Swift Ones stirrest floods and waters.

    In one sense, it may be an epithet of Yama and again Horse. But from above, if there is the parallel Seven Sages--Navagvas, then, there is Dasagvas--"followers of Saranyu".


    The specific naming of Saranyu as:


    tvaṣṭā duhitre


    is the legend given by:


    Devasrava Yamayana


    ...the mother of Yama, the newly-married wife of the mighty Vivasvat, disappeared.

    From concealment, they:


    ...gave her to Vivasvat. She bore the two Aśvins when this had happened and then Saraṇyū gave birth to two twins.


    There is a section with Vayu and Pusan as path guardians, finally Waters:


    Sarasvatī, who rides in the same chariot with the Pitṛs

    “The Soma has risen to the earthly and heavenly (worlds), both this visible world, and that which(existed) before (it); I offer that Soma flowing through the common region (of heaven and earth) after the sacrifice(offered by the) seven (officiating priests).”


    Done with vasat mantras and Brhaspati.


    His verses only say Saranyu had the Yamas, went into concealment, then had the Aswins, the second set of twins.

    That very nearly has the sound of Yama--Atharvan and Dadhyan--Aswins as the first two generations of Rishis.


    Reflexively, from her personal origin in the words of Yami:


    gandharvó apsú ápiyā ca yóṣā


    Gandharva of Apsu and "Lady of the Waters", or, i. e. Saranyu is usually referred to as "Swift Cloud"--she is not half of the sun itself.


    Of course, it was merely suggestive, I cannot say the Aswins "didn't exist" but were brought to the forefront by Dadhyan. He "augmented" something which was already around. Atharvan personally mentions the Aswins one time, in a verse that is copied Eighteen times in Yajur Veda:


    Devasya tva savituh prasave ’svinorbahubhyam
    pusno hastabhyam.



    Dadhyan also refers to Brhaspati, so that is also at least as old as he is. But yes this same Aswins phrase is strewn across multiple authors. YV may have a small amount from Atharvan and Dadhyan for the express purpose of copying them. It has "Angiras Rishi", "Hiranyastupa Angiras", "Angiras Hiranyastupa", and "Hiranyastupa". It only partially copies Rg Veda, e. g. some of the Vasistha quotes are not present. Vasistha to Vishnu 16 copies 7.99.3 appending "svaha", and then Vishnu 17 is not found. There is an Angiras pattern which looks like an Apri Hymn.


    It does not have Kaksivan, but it has Dirghatamas, heavily, in fact ending with him in a peculiarly Upanishadic tone that I did not think sounded like the Vedas. Such as:


    Vayuranilamamrtamathedam bliasmantam
    sariram. Om krato smara. Klibe smara. Krtam
    smara.


    It turns out that:


    Ishopanishad is a literal version of the closing chapter
    of Yajurveda.

    The Vedanta Sutras are an extensive
    commentary on the closing words of Yajurveda. The
    closing words of Yajurveda are: Om Kham Brahma. And
    the opening words of Vedanta Sutras are: Athato
    Brahma Jijnasa

    Which means: And now, an enquiry into the
    nature of Brahma. Clearly the Vedanta Sutras are an
    extensive act of meditation on the open-ended close of
    Yajurveda.


    The Upanishad begins using "anila" in a special relationship to Vayu as life-force. This is not present in Rg Veda mantras, however it is the name of Rishi Anila Vatayana:


    ātmā devānām bhuvanasya garbho yathāvaśaṃ carati deva eṣaḥ | ghoṣā id asya śṛṇvire na rūpaṃ tasmai vātāya haviṣā vidhema ||


    The soul of the gods, the germ of the world, this divinity moves according to his pleasure; his voices are heard, his form is not (seen); let us worship that Vāta with oblations.



    The translators keep saying that vayu leaves the body and re-joins cosmic anila, although all the definitions say Forty-nine Anilas, i. e. the compound divisions of families and branches within the body. It is also a name of Arcturus in Bootes.




    In YV, there is no Kaksivan as the successor of Dirghatamas, however he is inconveniently referred to by one of the Gaupayanas that should likely be Viprabandhu:


    Somanam svaranam krnuhi brahmanaspate.
    Kaksivantam ya ’ausijah.


    This is in fact a copy of Medhatithi I.18:


    “Brahmaṇaspati (=Agni, connected with prayer) make the offerer of the libation illustrious among the gods, like Kakṣīvat, the son of Uśij (and Dīrghatamas).”


    and this is how distant the "educated" translation falls:


    Lord of Eternal knowledge, keen as I am for
    knowledge and learning like a very child of Wisdom,
    shape me into a scholar with a sense of ethical values, a
    persuasive speaker and a teacher and maker of
    rejuvenating tonics.


    Oddly, the next verse is attributed to Medhatithi rather than the fourth Gaupayana. This quote should have been apparent to anyone who had even skimmed the Rg Veda just a few verses in regular linear order. Failing that, the name, alone, should be a complete giveaway. Where does the brief paragraph deal with Soma? The sense I get is the editors are going to reify Brahma, into the entity, lord, as if above and beyond, whereas the real sense is immanent, and more of a verb, the act of, practicing the art of. Not really a static ball of complete knowledge, but, the experience of Speech during the mantric process.

    That is a different thing, if you say "contemplation of Brahma" and project it as an external creator. If it is a "thing" it would be the person doing the mantra. The Vedic sense is spontaneously self-reflexive. Until you are a Kavi or Muni, you are using mantra to enter and visit the state they are in. Terms like "realization of Truth" doesn't quite catch this. It is a change of natures, manifestation of divinity.



    Again, surmising there might be a "brother" to Kaksivan, according to Vamra Vaikhanasa, Rjisvan Ausija shattered the cow pen of Pipru.

    YV has Virupa talking about Ustra--Camel and Sarabha; several passages about not killing animals. "Svaha" mantras and so forth sound rather "late". Although the basic division of mantras is straight from Yama in Rg Veda:


    “Mātalin prospers with the Kavyas; Yama with the Aṅgirasas; Bṛhaspati with the Ṛkvans; they whom the gods augment, and they who augment the gods, these rejoice in Svāhā, those in the Svadhā.”


    Trita uses Svaha to Agni bearing this unusual epithet:


    mandhātā | asi |

    thinker art thou


    draviṇodā́ ṛtā́vā

    wealth-giver, true to Order



    Virupa, himself, is quite possibly a "late" Rishi. Yajur Veda has another ancient grasp towards:


    Devavata and Bharata Rshis

    Devashrava & Devavata Rshis

    Devashrava & Devavata Bharata Rshis



    Both of them are "sons of Bharata", which we think may be the evoked Agni of Vadhryasva, rather than a sage or king.

    Devavata is the father of Srnjaya, who is the father of Divodasa. And so this is not a "lineage" going back any further in time, if Devasravas is a brother, and it is not necessarily the biological father given here. Compare the "brothers" of III.23:


    devaśravā devavātaśca bhāratī


    to the sole author of X.17:


    devaśravā yāmāyanaḥ


    So far, the reasoning suggests that the "grandson of Yama" would be about the same generation as "grandfather of Divodasa". But, beyond the proximity of these two, I don't know of anything that would definitely form that conclusion of identity.






    A few more reactions to "Myth and Reality". Kosambi gives this observation on form:

    Quote The only male
    god with wings as well as arms is explicitly Visvakarman in x. 81.3. There is a winged
    demon suparnayatu against which the Vasisthas pray for protection in vii. 104.22. But i.
    22.11 hopes that the gods' wives would be with unbroken wings, acchinna-patrah
    sacantam. That the dawns, or the dawn-night pair were winged seems quite clear from
    two prayers in distress: i. 105.11 suparna eta asate and ma mam ime patatrini vi
    dugdham (i. 58.4)

    That is not what it says about Visvakarman:


    ...he traverses (heaven) with his arms...



    and of course he notices perhaps more accurately:


    The Rgvedic references to the dancing-girl are casual, as if the institution were familiar
    to all...


    I don't actually know why that would be a surprise.

    For instance I.93.4, Usas wearing decorative
    clothes like a dancing girl: adhi pesamsi vapate nrtur iva

    IV.43 certainly shows the Aswins as the "lords" of Surya--Usas.

    I don't agree with the very pedantic "anthropological" reading which says the Usas-bride was sexually passed between several men, because "men" is just a flowery way of writing such as when Ghosa says "we" seek a husband. This is probably one of the first studies to even consider the topic, and, if we do not have to agree with all of his review, he does manage to piece together the Usas-wreck.

    It is mainly this which is enabling to future followers of the Aswins.

    If there must have been continued success, vested in the same mythos, this may be a useful detail:


    Quote Narada enjoys a very high position as sage, being quoted or addressed from the Atharva-veda
    down; yet he is still called a Gandharva in the epics. In Buddhist records, he and Pabbata
    are gods; a Narada is a Brahma, another a former Buddha! Most important of all, the
    Anukramani makes him and his brother or nephew Parvata joint authors of RV. ix. 104,
    but with an alternative ascription to 'the two Sikhandinis, apsarasas, daughters of
    Kasyapa'.


    We found an Atri-ism:


    ūrjām patir

    the lord of vigour, (Vāyu)


    which is the same such as by Sabara Kaksivata X.169:



    mayobhū́r vā́to abhí vātūsrā́ ū́rjasvatīr óṣadhīr ā́ rišantām
    pī́vasvatīr jīvádhanyāḥ pibantv avasā́ya padváte rudra mṛḷa


    except that is a singular use of feminized Urjasvati.


    And this is quite similar to a unique Kaksivan on Usas:


    Ūrjāni, (the daughter of the sun), has ascended, Aśvins, your car.


    It would be pointless to suggest is coincidental, since Sabara is a son or follower of Kaksivan, "Urjasvati" would be a readily-understandable variant of "Urjani". This again happens to be the spine as to why there is most of the rest about the Aswins and so on. These Angirases are propitiating Usas.



    "Urja" has general meanings of vital essence, life, breath, food, might, power, Arundhati or other wife of Vasistha.


    Vasistha does have offspring, such as Pratha Vasistha X.181 who credits him with:


    Rathantara

    Bharadvāja took the Bṛhat

    from Dhāta, and from the radiant Savitā, and from Viṣṇu


    Noticing that refrain and Surya Savitri uses similar expressions with Matarisvan and Dhata. So i. e., the progression of Agni through the Sun is similar to progression of Saman or Song through the Sages.


    In that example, the mantra itself says Pratha is Vasistha's son. Usually, we tend to think Sakti Vasistha is also his son, but otherwise, I am not sure there is anything more than the Anukramani that allows us to say "there are Vasisthas" without being able to know which may be children.


    Vasistha's "normal" wife is not mentioned in the Rg Veda whatsoever, although something like this may be possible:


    Arundhatī (अरुन्धती).—A daughter of Kardama, sister of Parvata and Nārada, (Kāśyapa) and wife of Vasiṣṭha; a surname of hers was Ūrjā.

    Vāyu-purāṇa 2. 10; 19. 2; 30. 73; 69. 65; 70. 79.

    That is "mixed", because only Bhagavata Purana says Arundhati (Urja). The Vayu most strongly resembles the Brahmanda as it places her at the top of divine creation in Part Two:


    2-3. I shall now recount the progeny of Dharma.
    {Listen and) understand. Daksa, the son of Pracetas, gave these
    ten daughters to Dharma as wives, viz. Arundhati, Vasu, Yami,
    Laihba, Bhanu, Marutvati, Saihkalpa, Muhurta, Sadhya and
    Visva.

    35. All the objects on the Earth were born of Arundhati.


    But then her name is cycled in the mortal world in a way that would be impossible for the Rg Veda:


    74-76. He begot of them ten sons, all equal to him. They had
    no names. All the ten were purified by great penance. They were
    the sages famous by the name ^Svastyatreyas.’ They were mas-
    ters of Vedas. Among them, two were very famous, powerful
    and expounders of Brahman the eldest was Dattatreya...

    79. From Kasyapa Narada, Parvata and Arundhati were
    born. O excellent ones, (listen to and) understand (the sons)of
    Arundhati.

    80. Narada gave Arundhati (in marriage) to Vasi§tha.



    That gives us a very strange look at Narada and Parvata Kanva who may have had Kasyapa's daughters as wives.

    There are more than ten named Atreyas, none of them are Datta. If you pare that down to the most straightforward logic, it would say Dattatreya is Svastya.

    This passage is almost like Veda-cide.


    That "may" be an acceptable resolution of an alternym, but I am not sure we can say Narada Kanva gave a sister to Vasistha. We can say, Kasyapa gave a daughter to Narada.

    It would, of course, make complete sense if Svastya went to a non-Vedic area where he was given the nickname "Datta", which is not present in any Vedic scriptures.


    I still find it "extremely likely" that the non-Vedic accounts of Dattatreya and the career of Rama or Parasurama *do* have their roots of origin in the Vedic Rishis.

    Allowing for this is why we would also say, there are Varuni, Viraja, and Hingula, goddesses not specifically mentioned in the Veda; but scrutinize more heavily the "overhauls", i. e. such as Vedic Vishnu being represented by Mahabharata Krishna.




    In Part One of the Vayu Purana, Arundhati's mortal form is present at Naimisa, along with Pururavas --> Ayu --> Nahusa.

    Brahmanda Purana represents him as:


    9-11. The preceptor of those who sing Saman Mantras
    is King Pururavas, the son of Ila.' Forty-six other sages, together
    with their disciples are also Srutarsis.

    This is entirely possible, at least in the symbolic sense, like Bharata, as this class of "disciples" is the Rishi composers. We have to conclude that Saman is a burgeoning or forthcoming practice, Gandharva Veda, like Astrology, "Veda Supplement Knowledge". Different Gotras have just been defined as different musical styles.


    Hiranyastupa I.31 clearly indicates "the mortal Nahusa". We are not sure his antecedents are human. This hymn is somewhat technical after Agni has two mothers:


    To Matarisvan first thou, Agni, wast disclosed, and to Vivasvan through thy noble inward power.

    He does refer to:


    You, Agni, has announced heaven to Manu; you have more than requited Purūravas doing homage to you.


    But this is not connected through Ayu or any other person to the rest of the hymn.

    He just says later, going from Nahusa:


    Ila they made the teacher of the sons of men, what time a Son was born to the father of my race.


    There is an implication this was Yayati or that he is close to the source with Manu and Angiras. Physically, this Rishi seems to be saying he is a "Nahausa" more than a Paurava. Mainly this informs us that "Pururavas and Urvasi" must have certainly been known in order for him to toss the name into a position of primacy. Rather than the Puranic "descent of Pururavas", this actually tells us that Ila Devi is the guru of Nahausas.

    This is for example why Parucchepa says "Ila's footprint" is where Agni sits down.




    Arundhati is also semi-deified into the legend of Ganges and the birth of Skanda. Here, she is "wife of Vasistha" as the star Alcor. There are several generations of Vasisthas in the Rg Veda, and the word "arundhati" is not even present. I'm not yet sure we can name "her" anything.

    The conclusion of "Naimisa" is "why" Vayu Purana:


    35. He (Vayu) was a disciple of Brahma. He could see
    everything directly. He had perfect control over his senses. He
    was endowed with the eight supernatural powers like Anirna and
    others.

    36. He sustains all the worlds with their special characteri¬
    stics of the non-human (and human) species. He perpetually
    flows through his seven courses (regions) as arranged.

    37. The forty-nine Maruts arranged in seven groups of
    seven were stationed invariably in his jurisdiction. He is very
    powerful who could make the assemblage of three kinds of
    living beings. He could make embodied beings sustain through
    Tejas (fire).

    38. He sustains bodies of living beings urging them with
    his five-fold activities and through the organs of sensation and
    activity.

    39. It has been said by the learned that his source of origin
    was ether, attributes were sound and touch and that he was the
    origin of fire.

    40. Lord Vayu is the extremely active presiding deity
    called Vatarani. He was expert in the science of language.

    41. He was adept in ancient (Purana) tradition. By means
    of sweet words full of Puranic contents he could delight the
    learned sages


    Broadly, the idea is no different than Parucchepa on Agni:


    ...the divinity whom the wind brought from afar for the service of Manu.


    Likewise, in Rg Veda, there does not seem to be a simple form of "urja" as a personal name. It is common, such as from Kutsa:


    ūrjaḥ putram bharataṃ

    the offspring of food, the sustainer of (all men)


    This "food" has as its source according to Nema Bhargava:


    Vāk, the all-gladdening cow


    In turn, you would have "Urjani" as the provision and usage of the energy of Vak.

    Vasistha with "urja" = "strength":


    They from whom Varuna the King, and Soma, and all the Deities drink strength and vigour,
    They into whom Vaisvanara Agni entered, here let those Waters, Goddesses, protect Me.


    refrain:


    tā́ ā́po devī́r ihá mā́m avantu



    Urvasi was "the Apsaras", and then we see "apsarases, daughters of Kasyapa". And there is another:



    Kapiñjalī (कपिञ्जली).—(Ghṛtācī)—wife of Vasisṭha, and mother of Indrapramati (Indrapratima, Vāyu-purāṇa)*

    * Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa III. 8. 97; Vāyu-purāṇa 70. 88.


    Kapiñjala (कपिञ्जल) is the name of a bird mentioned in the Ṛgveda .—The Sūkta 190 of the first Maṇḍala of the Ṛgveda popularly known as Viṣaghnopaniṣad, has been uttered by Agastya. [...] Agastya also records that a small bird (identified as Kapiñjala; Francoline Partridge) has swallowed the poison; as a result neither she nor the victim would die of poison: thus, the poison becoming nectar. Scholars opine that the following hymn is a mystical antidote for poison. It also mentions the Kapiñjala bird which decimates viṣa (Ṛgevada I.191.11).


    Not quite--his "bird" is sakuna, which has the connotation of a good omen or guide by its voice. This is the exact meaning of a hymn attributed to Grtsamada:


    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): kapiñjalaivendraḥ

    Kapiñjala: The Anukramaṇikā has kanimatarūpindro devatā


    In other words, it may be "Indra's mother" who is the "sakuna", understood as a kapinjala.

    This possibly makes sense, for Indra-as-Visvamitra, as we shall see below.



    Puranic literature states that Kusanabha, son of Kusika with his wife Ghrtaci--are followed by:


    Gāthin (गाथिन्) (or Gādhi)


    Again that story is he had daughters, no sons, and Gadhi was born by Yajna.


    In comments to Madhuchhandas Vaisvamitra:


    Kuśika, the son of Iṣirathi, was desirous of a son equal to Indra; he did penance and Indra was born as the son of Gāthi

    Viśvāmitra, the sage, is the son of Kuśika


    The real relationship is what we just learned as son-in-law:


    refers to his grandson, (the son) of his daughter, and relying on the efficiency of the rite, honours (his son-in-law) with valuable gifts

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): gāthino viśvāmitraḥ, aiṣīrathīḥ kuśiko vā


    Visvamitra is referring to his grandfather, Kusika, who is in the "no sons" lot.


    Therefor, Kusika is the father of Gadhi's wife, who is not named anywhere, as if there was no such thing. This confused origin is also the source of the "dispute" with Vasistha.


    Visvamitra describes himself:


    kuśikasya


    similar to the Kusikas:


    kuśikāso


    the Kusikas:

    kuśikāsa


    Not necessarily "son of", but in the technical/legal sense he is Kusika's son. Like Sunahshepa is Visvamitra's adopted son.



    importantly:


    Viśvāmitra attested the watery stream when he sacrificed for Sudās; Indra, with the Kuśikas was pleased.


    Not much question that "the Kausikas" is the over-arching clan of Visvamitra. It does not, however, appear to have Ghrtaci, or any other woman for that matter.

    A published Visvamitra biography does not know who Isiratha is, or any woman involved. It does refer to VII.83, where Vasistha allies to the white-robed, braided-hair Trtsus, but cannot tell us much more about Ten Kings or what happened to Visvamitra. Not without resorting to later literature, which we see already confuses the genealogy, which this author finds just as easily as I did. Isiratha, Kusika, nameless daughter, Visvamitra. He does pick up on "sapsari" or "serpent speech".


    Sayana says:


    The Tṛtsus are the pupils of Vasiṣṭha




    Back to Ghrtaci:


    Brahma Vaivartta Purana attributes the origin of some of the mixed
    castes to her issue by the sage Visvakarman.

    This is similar to Citrangada of Vamana Purana. Brahma Vaivartta may be this which is said but not specified:


    Once Ghritachi, an apsara and Viswakarma have exchanged curses, because of which they both took birth as humans on the earth. Viswakarma as Brahmin and Ghritachi as a cowherd girl. Both together given birth to five sons who expanded the clan of professionals in Gold (kamsalis), wood (carpeters), Iron (blacksmiths), Stone (sculptors) and Bronze (bronzesmiths).


    This in turn is similar to the symbolic art of Vimana:


    Quote In the ‘Manasara,’ II. 2-35, it is said that the four progenitors and prototypes of the four divisions of architects are born from the four faces of Visvakarman. They are Visvakarman, Maya, Tvastr, and Manu. Their descendants are the Sthapati, the master builder; the Sutragrahin or Sutradhara who hold the measuring rod or line, the surveyor or draftsman; the Vardhaki, the builder and painter (from vrdhi, to make grow) and the Taksaka, the carpenter. It is derived from His activity whose path ‘measures’ the wide heaven (AV. IV. 2.3.).


    Nothing much has ever been asked of this, but yes, there is a Rishi Visvakarma, who could be as eligible as Rama for post-Vedic memories. Things that look like they are directly producing Gotras and guilds and the like, have more momentum for plausibility, than cases where it looks like a name was simply drawn out and mis-read and material attached to it.


    Vasistha, born of the Apsaras, finds they sit down:


    wearing the vesture spread out by Yama


    Sayana says:

    Vasiṣṭha, who is the first of the Prajāpatis, or mind-born sons of Brahmā, who is the son of Urvaśī...


    Vasistha says it wasn't Brahma, but Mitravaruna. Everyone else so far has more or less regaled they are descended from the invocation of Agni--suddenly Vasistha declares himself a direct product of deities.


    This is very and remarkably different. We did not find an "apsaras" in Books Six or Three. So he appears to be the first to tell of them at this level of detail.


    As for the "garment":


    vastram, spread, tatam, by him, is the revolution of life and death; janmādipravāhāḥ, weaving, vayantaḥ; connecting this with apsarasaḥ, the nymphs, or, the nymph Urvaśī, who sat down or approached in the capacity of a mother, jananitvena, wearing that vesture which he was destined by former nets to wear.


    The Apsaras is in fact quite rare in Rg Veda. Kavi IX.78 says:


    Apsarases who dwell in waters of the sea, sitting within, have flowed to Soma wise of heart.
    They urge the Master of the house upon his way, and to the Eternal Pavamana pray for bliss.



    Curiously, in the Puranas, the Apsarases are said to be the daughters of Rishi Kashyapa and his wife Muni. This could be possible, especially since it is clarified there are *two* daughters of Kasyapa whom the Kanvas call Apsarases. If this wife is in any sense a clan mother, as per Vatarasana Munis X.136:


    “Wandering in the track of the Apsarasas and the Gandharvas, and the wild beasts, the radiant (Sun),cognizant of all that is knowable, (is my) sweet and most delightful friend.”


    So, that is late-sounding language, as spoken by or attributed to the "class" of Munis. The hymn describes the Munis on an individual basis:



    by the might of their penance they become gods

    “Exhilarated by the sanctity of the Muni we have mounted upon the winds; behold, mortals, (in them)our forms!”

    “The Muni flies through the firmament, illumining all objects, the friend of each deity, appointed for pious works.”


    This disconnected-seeming group who may have invented a word, did not, because it is very rare, but we find it used in the individual sense by Vasistha. He, definitely, associates to them, although I do not know that the Veda confirms any wife of Kasyapa. Muni and Kadru are both possible. Buddha as Sakya of the Muni Clan likely refers to this.



    As love, the Apsaras inhabits Parame Vyoman with Vena.


    "She" does not seem to have a specific name, but, this Manu-like figure has just acquired the same tone as Pururavas.


    He is titanic to "Solar Dynasty" lists, however, he is also a Rg Veda legacy, as for example a late Kanva extols Prthu Vainya.


    Prthu is a Rishi who speaks the same way of Himself.

    Prthu in Hariyupiya VI.27.

    There is even another descendant whose view is cumulative:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): tānvaḥ pārthyaḥ

    This I proclaim in the presence of Duśīma, Pṛthavāna, Vena, the mighty Rāma, and (other) opulent (princes)...


    The story of Pṛthu and his milking of the earth is a Purāṇic transformation of the Vedic conception of milking of the Virāj cow. The Virāj Sūkta (AV. VIII 10) forms the basis of the Purāṇic legend. This purāṇic legend records the right of the sages (public leaders) to do away with a wilful tyrant.




    Brahmanda Purana says of Prthu:


    That king was the first among those who were crowned and anointed after the Rājasūya sacrifice.


    Where did Anga Aurava come from?


    Six great sons were born to Ūru by his wife Ātreyī. They were Aṅga, Sumanas, Svāti, Kratu, Aṅgiras and Gaya. Vena was born to King Aṅga by his wife Sunīthā and the famous emperor Pṛthu was born as the son of Vena. (Agni Purāṇa, Chapter 18).


    or by a different wife:


    Ūru (ऊरु).—A son of Cākṣuṣa Manu; wife Āgneyī; father of six sons.*

    * Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa II. 36. 79, 106-8


    He married Vidarbhā (Markendaya Purana)

    Matsya Purana:

    Pṛthu had two sons named Antardhāna and Habirdhāna. Among them Antardhāna gave birth a son named Mārīc from the womb of Śikhaṇḍinī. Agni’s daughter Dhisān gave birth to six sons named Prācīnbarhiṣa, Sānga, Yama, Śukr Bala and Śubha in connection with Habirdhāna.

    Anga by some accounts is a descendant of Pururavas in the Lunar dynasty, but:


    According to the brahmāṇḍa, matsya and vāyu purāṇas he was the son of Ūru and Āgneyī.


    A significant amount of liturgy already shows us that Uru Angiras is before Ucathya and Brhaspati; however Book Ten appears to capture some of the eastern or Trksi venue. This would yield a material lineage, which may be an anachronism if an "Ikshvaku" prior to the recorded Vedas is the source; if he was at Mandhata's time or before, that might violate being the parent of who or whatever Bharata is. So the Puranas give a descent which uses these Vedic Names:



    Uru + (Atreyi, Agneyi, or Vidarbhi)

    Anga Aurava + Sunitha

    Vena + Apsaras

    Prthu Vainya

    Havirdhana Angi + Dhisana

    Yama


    It may be that the Rishis are simply re-namings from legend that *does* pin to Ikshvaku. Rishi Yama, son of Havirdhana would obviously not be original Yama. The main difficulty with the Purana is that the Veda gives no reason to interject Vena and Prthu--it confirms they exist through a different descendant.


    Book Nine however gives him a lineage and a clan:


    vena bhārgava

    “The many voices of the Venas praise (the Soma who dwells) in heaven, well-winged, falling (to earth); praises soothe the crying infant, the golden bird, reposing on the earth.”

    I.e. the havirdhāna

    The elevated gandharva abides above the sun contemplating all its forms...



    Its tone is, however, quite similar to Book Ten's Vena:

    “The pious, knowing his form, praised him, for they followed the city of the great deer; approaching him with sacrifice, they reached the flowing (water), for the sustainer of the waters knows the ambrosial (fluids).”

    Great deer: i.e., Vena, whose cry is the thunder; sustainer of the waters: gandharva


    Vena is associated with the Golden Bird, and then, like the last hymn:


    The Gandharvā stood erect upon the firmament


    For the Apsaras:


    “Those desiring you in their hearts contemplated you travelling as a strong-winged bird in the sky, the golden-winged messenger of Varuṇa, the bird which nourishes (the world) in Yama's dwelling.”


    Either one appears to work as the Golden Bird of Soma.


    They are non-identical beings with a joint purpose.


    "Air and Water" mating as per Vamadevya Saman somewhat makes sense.


    Not from the quoted verses themselves, but, as a subject.

    Yami refers to "Apsaras and Gandharva", and Kasyapa's daughters use the feminized version of the name Sikhandin Gandharva.





    We have found in Vedic terms, the "Dynasties", Lunar and Solar, would be more accurately expressed as:



    Aila Pauravas and Ayodhya Prithus


    The eastern, Trksi or Tarksya Prithus of Ayodhya, are accepted as "Angirases" like the other Rishis--but what is more telling is that the inverse is also the case, that the eastern Vasisthas are quite possibly the primogenitors.

    And the two are not necessarily different.


    Pururavas loses the trail when "vasistha" is translated in an area where her activity is Vimana of Antariska:


    I, her best love...


    or almost buried by gloss:


    “(Purūravā). I, Vasiṣṭha, bring under subjection Ūrvaśī who fills the firmament (with lustre) and measures out the rain. May (Purūravā), the bestower of the auspicious rite, abide near you; come back-- my heart is burning.”

    Vasiṣṭha: an epithet, pre-eminently the giver of dwellings


    If so, then, giver of dwellings to "Ayodhyans", which we take as symbolic for the human body and aura. That is because there is no such place in Rg Veda, and it appears in this symbolic manner in Atharva Veda.



    At face value, there is no translation, Pururavas is Vasistha.


    The Rg Veda supports both the existence of Mandhata, and, the Vasisthas of his homeland. They are allies but foreigners. It is for this reason that we may consider non-Vedic suggestions about the lacuna.


    Ramayana Vasistha says:

    Manu, who life to mortals gave,
    Begot Ikshváku good and brave.
    First of Ayodhyá's kings was he,
    Pride of her famous dynasty.


    Ikshvaku attained the accomplishment of Sun God by doing rigorous penance for 100 nights and made his own separate kingdom and capital Ayodhyapuri by making sage Vashishtha a guru through his teachings. Since then sage Vashishta often started living there. Vashishta was the first teacher of Prajapita Brahma’s Yagya at Pushkar. Sage Vashishtha had performed many yagyas from Ikshvaku and Nimi...


    We may not be able to dispute the existence of a Puskara site considerably prior to Rishi Vasistha of the time of Sudas.


    Bharadvaja says that he could not see Indra. However, for Vasistha:


    Quote A legend in the Taittirīya Saṃhitā tells us that among the sages it was Vasiṣṭha alone who could see Indra. The god taught him the Stomabhāgas with the charge that any king who had him as purohita would thereby flourish if Vasiṣṭha did not tell the Stomabhāgas to other sages. “Therefore—teaches the text—one should have a descendant of Vasiṣṭha (a Vāsiṣṭha) as one’s Brahman priest”. The Brahman was the priest who silently monitored the ritual. He was associated with the Atharvaveda and with the office of the family priest, the purohita of the patron of the sacrifice, the yajamāna. We may connect with these Vedic passages the tradition that Vasiṣṭha or several Vasiṣṭhas were the purohitas of the kings of Ayodhyā, the members of the Ikṣvāku—or Sūryavaṃśa.

    Compared to Visvamitra, in Yoga Vasistha:


    Quote We have it explicitly mentioned in the Gayatri hymn of the Rig Veda, which is daily recited by every Brahman, and wherein its author Viswamitra "meditated on the glory of the Lord for the illumination of his understanding" ~~. But this bespeaks a development of intellectual meditation "jnana yoga" only, and not spiritual as there is no prayer for ( ~~) liberation.

    That is a very valid point, although probably made by much later Vasisthas after this particular verse had been singled out and more or less equated to the whole Rg Veda.


    Mallinatha explains Atharvan as a title of Vasistha, who may therefor be called at Sagara's time, Atharvanidhi Apava.

    Accordingly,

    The Atharvans are descended from Vasiśṭha Rṣi. Vasiśṭha's dedication to Atharvan is demonstrated in the Rig Veda wherein after being filled with anger, he calms himself by reading the Atharva Mantra. Vedic scholar Mallinatha writes in his commentary of the Kiratarjunya that the Śāstras declare that the mantras of Atharva Rṣi are preserved by Vaśiśṭha.


    From the old Dictionary:

    Atharvan
    the son of Vasistha was the author of this Veda.

    In Rgveda another Atharva may be
    seen. It is said that he was the author of the Atharvaveda. After learning Brahmavidya from Brahma, it was this Atharva. who first brought fire to the earth
    from heaven. Atharva had two wives named Santi and
    Citti. This Atharva was the same person as Atharvana,
    the son of Vasistha. (Bhagavata, 4th Skandha, Chapter 1).


    That is included among its other definitions:


    Atharvā (अथर्वा).—A Laukikāgni; is Bhṛgu; father of Darpahā. Belongs to Dadhyaṅgātharvaṇa category.*

    * Vāyu-purāṇa 29. 8, 9; Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa II. 12, 9.


    In the words of Saryata Manava:


    “Inasmuch as Bṛhaspati, the showerer (of benefits) and the kindred of Soma (the Visvedevās), bestow food (for the support) of people, Atharvan was the first to invigorate (the gods) with sacrifices; with strength the gods and Bhṛgus discovered (the cattle).”


    So far I am still left with the impression that "bhrgus" are little other than a synonym for "Navagvas".

    I don't see "Atharva mantras" in Book Seven, or, anything that directly equates Vasistha and Atharvan. Their identities are blurred in the authorship of a single hymn in AV Samhita:


    imam indra vardhaye 'ti vasistha aindram traistubham so 'tharva ksatriyaya rajne candramase
    prathamabhih pancabhir...


    Asita Kasyapa, the main "Soma guru" of Book Nine is certainly following Atharvans.

    Vasistha's VII.59.12 became the popular Mrityunjaya Mantra, but, it is the only mention of "Trayambaka" in the Rg Veda. Rigvidhana simply calls it "mahatva". It would generically mean "father of three". It is the last line, there is no explanation why this suddenly appears at the end of a Maruts hymn. You would of course expect "Rudra", so that much is hard to dispute. We see on a popular level, single verses of Visvamitra and Vasistha have been elevated and enshrined, in a way that does not quite convey their original connotation, and blended with a "conflict" story that so far has no evidence whatsoever. If anything, we might say that the Bharatas suffered a defeat, and therefor may have become dissatisfied with Visvamitra. But it appears this took place on its own, having nothing to do with Vasistha. You would expect him to harp on it if he had done something. He wrote almost an entire Book and has multiple Families of descendants. Yet his only relevance is that he would have been in the line of Ikshvaku priests, and probably available or not that difficult for the Bharatas to dig up.

    In other words, if it were not for some disaster, Sudas may not have turned to him.


    The lineages of Rama claim that Ikshvaku (Rsabha) was the father of Bharata. The Rg Veda only incidentally mentions "iksvaku" in a way that does not sound personalized. X.60 is not to a deity, it is to King Asamati , and combines this "manu person" with an article "who/which/that":


    yasyekṣvākur


    which is more like the expression "yonder sun".

    Asamati Rathpraushta had for his priests, the Gaupayanas. The Gaupayanas were sons of the sister of Agastya, according to RV 10.60.6.

    It is highly probable that Agastya might have managed to secure the priestly offices for his nephews given his friendship with the Vasiṣṭha of Sudasa’s time...


    The hymn specifies Asamati as a:


    Descendant of Bhajeratha


    “In the good government of whose (realm) the opulent and victorious Ikṣvāku prospers (so that) the five orders of men (are as happy) as if they were in heaven.”

    Maintain, Indra, vigour in the Rathaproṣṭha Asamātis...


    Suddenly:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): agastyasya svasaiṣāṃ mātā

    for the nephews of Agastya

    come back, Subandhu, to this your (body) that is capable of motion...


    Transporting the Manas:


    (Agni speaks). I bring the spirit of Subandhu from Yama, the son of Vivasvat


    It's not possible this means original Ikshvaku, it should be "the" or "a" or "lineage" or "memory of". So Bhajeratha and Rathaprosta Asamati are "Ikshvakus". Helping the "nephews" is about a Resurrection. The nephews are the ones giving the expression "Ikshvaku". It must be part of Agastya-speak. It has the same connotation as the more standard Vedic expressions of harmonizing "five tribes". Vasistha says that Usas empowers the vanguard or forefront, those Angirases or Sages in the highest rank.


    Vasistha and Agastya have gone above and beyond most mystical self-descriptions by saying they are offspring of Urvasi.


    "Urvasi" is quintessential for Pururavas and Vasistha, similarly with Vena and "Apsaras". Then two of Kasyapa's children are apsarases. There has been a transition of cosmic principle to human being, or vice-versa. The Rg Veda is somewhat reticent about this. But the immanence of apsarases proliferates.



    YV 15 names Ghrtaci as an Apsaras, in fact it probably names more of them than Atharva Veda does. Urvasi is in the next verse. This is a large cycle (The Year), off by one numbered verse from the Archive version which has Sanskrit and identifies Paramesthin as the Rishi. That one does not recognize "apsarases" or that Tarksya Aristanemi is with Ghrtaci.




    Implying the existence of Usija:


    Quote The delighted cow Surabhi spoke these words to Dīrghatamas.

    91. “O sage, you pondered over Godharma and did like this. Therefore, I am pleased with your single-minded devotion to us.

    92-94. Hence, I shall dispel your chronic darkness. You will be able to see. By sniffing and inhaling the air from your body, I shall dispel the sin of curse imprecated by Bṛhaspati, which lingers yet in your body. I shall dispel the fear of old age and death in you.”

    The moment he was sniffed and smelt, he became competent to see as the darkness was dispelled. He became a young man endowed with longevity and power of sight. He became Gautama because his Tamas (darkness) was removed by a cow.

    95. Kakṣīvān went to Girivraja along with his father and performed elaborate penance as directed by him.


    After attaining the status of a Brāhmaṇa, Kakṣīvān begot a thousand sons. Those sons are remembered as Kūṣmāṇḍas and Gautamas.

    These are said to be the descendants of Ikṣvāku.



    Thus the Kṣatriya clan originating from Manu and Aila (Pururavas) has been recounted.


    It has lapsed any distinguishing of Iksvakus and Aila Pauravas. Again this sounds like a modest geographical separation that is "wearing one garment".

    It is very suggestive of the equivalencies:


    Dirghatamas <--> Gotama Rahugana

    Dirghasravas, Kaksivan <--> Vamadeva Gautama



    In the words of Gotama:


    “Atharvan first by sacrifices discovered the path (of the stolen cattle); then the bright sun, the cherisher of pious acts, was born. Atharvan regained the cattle; Kāvya (Uṣanās) was associated with him. Let us worship the immortal (Indra), who was born to restrain (the asuras).”


    In context, I suppose Vamadeva is really talking about Indra when he says "I" am Kaksivan and Kavi Usana and:


    I have befriended Kutsa, the son of Arjuni


    That is, conversational, he is "speaking as" Indra through numerous exploits.

    From Gotama I.92:


    The Gotamas have praised Heaven's radiant Daughter, the leader of the charm of pleasant voices.
    Dawn, thou conferrest on us strength with offspring and men, conspicuous with kine and horses.


    On a visible level, Gotama is plagued by that pestilence called Thirst, which is resolved in various ways. Directly to him by the Maruts in I.85.

    It is categorically handled by The Gotamas in I.88, whose songs "open the well" for themselves.

    Similarly, it is done by Nasatyas for the Gotamas in Kaksivan's I.116.

    And the Nasatyas are invoked by Agastya because they helped Gotama, Purumilha, Atri in I.183.


    At first glance, there is nothing obvious to agree that Gotama is the restored Dirghatamas. It seems likely they are about the same place in time.


    Aswins I.116 is one of the most complex hymns to be found. It is his first given. It is not a prayer of distress, it is a multi-generational career of accomplishment, all the way through his grandson. And we see he gives credit to Gotama, but does not mention Vamadeva at all.

    It's a lot of people, one of whom is almost mistakable for "Prthu", but is actually the royal donor of VIII.46:


    Pṛthuśravas, the son of Kānīta


    whose activity builds to an odd relation of Vayu and Ucathya.



    Kaksivan must be pivotal, because he bundles some of the most mystical verses of all:


    The Quail from the Wolf, Vispala, Rjrasva and the Wolf, two verses on the Aswins' Chariot:


    “The daughter of the sun ascended your car, (like a runner) to a goal; when you won (the race) with your swift horse, all the gods looked on with (anxious hearts), and you, Nāsatyas, were associated with glory.”

    “When, Aśvins, being invited, you went to his dwelling (to give due rewards) to Divodāsa, offering oblations, then your helping chariot conveyed (food and) treasure, and the bull and the porpoise were yoked together.”


    the Vṛṣabha and Śiṃśumāra


    they were yoked to the car of the Aśvins, to display their power



    On the notional level, we can ruminate through what that may mean, but, it is a sole reference of a star sign, and brought into alignment with Divodasa.




    We don't know why he has embedded "Vispala" in these mysteries.

    He personally refers to her in his other hymns. I.117:


    the son (of the jar)

    exalted by Agastya with prayer, you restored Nāsatyas, Viṣpalā.


    I.118:


    you liberated the quail from danger; you gave a leg to Viśpalā.


    Kutsa follows her with the Rishi of VIII.46:


    “With those aids by which you enabled the opulent Viśpalā, when she was unable to move, to go to the battle rich in a thousand spoils, and by which you protected the devout Vaśa, the son of Aśva; with them, Aśvins, come willingly hither.”


    and of course she is remembered by Ghosa:


    ...you quickly enabled Viśapalā to walk.


    Much as we have become suspicious about the "Iron Finger" of another story, here we encounter:


    jaṅghām āyasīṃ


    “The foot of (Vispalā, the wife of) Khela, was cut off, like the wing of a bird, in an engagement by night; immediately you gave her a metallic leg, that she might walk, the hidden treasure (of the enemy being the object of the conflict).”


    Khela was a king; Agastya was his purohita. Through his prayers the Aśvins gave Viśpalā a metallic leg.



    Agastya and his sister have both increased the Aswins' lineage.


    Here, Vispala has the same metaphor as the Lame of other Aswins' hymns. Ghosa has a "Golden Hand" confabulated into her son's name, and I would tend to say the instant appearance of artificial limbs is probably not to be taken literally. Especially since Ghosa doesn't seem to say "leprosy" about herself. The point being the Aswins are a type of spiritual quest or process of Amrta.

    Unlike the majority of the rest of the deities, there is not an everyday aspect of nature that they appear to be personifying. They are managers or administrators rather than resources. Their mother was concealed because their father was too powerful. Then they are augmented with Madhu Vidya. This must be a specific tradition from within the Veda, rather than the basic concepts illustrated at Nausharo.

    It may be possible there was an intermediate step of Ikshvaku and Vasistha who crafted appropriate Indra mantras, without, yet, having the Offering system as revealed by Atharvan. Although taught as and through a physical ritual, it is obvious from within the Rg Veda itself, that the ultimate meaning is symbolic.


    It seems to me that the "Lame" metaphor means you cannot walk the Path. I don't think it directly says this in any passage, but if I try to think what would make the Aswins relevant on a daily basis, of course we are not literally in a well, and our feet are not being cut off, nor is a person in debt literally dead. Seems easy to understand these are figurative expressions for what it feels like. Then, yes, you turn to the deity to help figure out what is going on and how to resolve it. Not quite that names are spoken and miracles happen.

    I can't say this is specifically described in the Veda, other than Blind. Because this *does* appear to be explained as a spiritual disease, we would think it implies the other conditions are similar. Particularly once we say that one person was Blind and Lame, which is very rare in actuality, but most of us would be able to understand it on a personal level and universally.



    In these cycles, Rjrasva Varsagira is given the single disease, "blind", which routes him into the same vein as Dirghatamas-qua-Gotama.

    To prevent mistakes, I was curious about the following, because it sounds like Parivraja, which is the complete opposite, a pilgrim, or mendicant, as used for the stage of Buddha's life when he wandered to Gandahar. This is in tune with standard meanings for Parivraja.


    "Blind" becomes combined with "Lame or Crippled" in a figure who is named Paravrj by Kutsa, in a way that vaguely associates him with lameness.


    His existence is repeated and spelled Paravrk by Vamadeva:

    the son of Agru


    However, the character is clearly elucidated by Grtsamada:


    parāvṛjam prāndhaṃ śroṇaṃ

    prāndha (blind) and śrona (lame) were epithets of Parāvṛj


    The similarity of names is not connected. The Veda has a totally different expression for non-walking, srona, rather than a negation of Parivraja. The character's name is based in Vrj, meaning he was an outcast or reject; is miserable.

    To speak directly of walking is Vraja, for the wanderer.



    This character must be the centrality of it all, because he has returned us to Vamadeva's IV.30, where he combines with the tragedy of Usas. The hymn at first remembers Kutsa, for whom:


    muṣāya sūryam, you have stolen the sun


    It then describes liberating the sun for a mortal, slaying the son of Danu, slaying the daughter of heaven and apparent rejoinder with her invulnerable status.

    Shortly after her is the Paravrj section, explained in its later logic:


    you have restored the (one who was) blind, the (other who was) lame, both abandoned by their kin


    which refers to the two symptoms split off one person in the following way:


    borne across (their difficulties), Turvaśas and Yadu, when denied inauguration


    because it is reconciling former adversaries, while kicking out family or blood kin:


    You have slain at once those two Āryas, Arṇa and Citraratha, (dwelling) on the opposite (bank) of the Sarayu.


    It finishes on Divodasa followed by Magic Dabhiti.


    Grtsamada described the two as:


    ...the easy crossing of the flowing waters for Turviti and Vayya


    The character of multiple symptoms sounds like an allegory for two entire tribes.

    That perhaps is because these are Indra exploits, rather than the Aswins, who sound more personal, restoring persons of usually one symptom.

    The principle is also understood in a modern view of Buddhism:

    Quote The issue of security of a nation was there in Buddha’s time and even before to that; but, the nature of threats to national security that exist today did not exist then in Buddha’s time. While dealing with the issues of national security from Buddha’s perspective one need to analyze the issues based on time relativity of those period. Hence, the security events of those days and the way they had been addressed then need to be viewed not from present days’ context but from the lens of that period.

    I think that is the case, we have invented new forms of perversity that were unheard of in the ancient world.

    This theme was expounded by Buddha, that foes become friends, and friends become foes. More than one reviewer has also realized this about the Veda, that alliance isn't granted by Divine Right or family status. There is a level of goodness and agreement that must be maintained. The verses on Usas's car are right there with this primary concept.





    One more note here. I noticed another inconsistency in the Anukramani.


    Atri Bhauma
    ViSvavArA AtreyI
    GaurivIti SAktya
    Babhru Atreya


    should actually be rousing the clan of Ratri at V.30:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): babhru rātreyaḥ



    "Ratri Bharadvaji" was only an adjective, but in this area, it would appear that Atri's daughter is aimed at Vasistha's grandson, followed by a totally different family or deity.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Correction





    I have to retract something I posted. It wasn't what I was working with and I did not pay attention.

    I made a mistake responding to "the svastyatreyas" with the individual Syavasva.

    We brushed by where the "svastyas" are called a "class" such as in Brahmanda Purana where it inverts the Rg Veda, describing evolution from Kasyapa and Atri where Vasistha is "incidentally" there, this is what Atri does:


    Quote He begot of those (ten Apsaras) sons equal to himself.

    81-84. The holy lord sanctified by means of very great penance begot those ten sons. Those sages well known as Svastyātreyas have mastered the Vedas. Among them, two were extremely renowned. They were devoutly interested in the Brahman and were of great spiritual power.

    Datta is considered to be the eldest, Durvāsas was his younger brother. The youngest of all was a lady who expounded the Brahman.



    To the negative, there is no "Rishi Durvasas", as there is no "Datta". The "class" appears to be the author(s) of V.50-51 just before Syavasva:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): svastyātreyaḥ



    Nothing is personalized here, it doesn't really describe a "class". Instead, this is a self-naming hymn. The "atreya" is a repeated line, "Agni, consume oblations like Atri", while "svasti" is the "well-being" as granted by every deity in the Visvedevas.


    Here is an example with some unusual goddesses:


    svasti pathye revati |



    Path of the firmament: pathye, revati are two proper names;

    Pathye = goddess presiding over the antarikṣa;

    Revati = goddess presiding over riches



    An understanding of Soma is given:


    Soma for prosperity, he who is the protector of the world



    and there is an equivalent of Vedic Ganapati:


    bṛhaspatiṃ sarvagaṇaṃ


    "Svasti Atreya" may or may not be a person--it at least is a "method", or means of evoking Agni to cajole the deities to performance, on which all our happiness depends.



    Learning from the mistake, there is more to it.


    Shortly before this, V.44 is by:

    AvatsAra KASyapa, various Atreyas


    and other Kasyapas. So it is not really that hard to find a "class" of associated individuals that would perhaps be a Vedic restoration against what was just said in the Purana. The Purana is something that "is said" about him, the rik is what he personally wrote.


    Startlingly, this Svastya hymn uses Agru as an adjective in a rather strange way:


    Surya the Sage, as if unwedded, with a Spouse, in battle-loving spirit moveth o' er the foes.


    which is extraordinary, because "Agru" has *no* other appearance besides Paravrj when described by Vamadeva. In fact, we can reverse this from a second hymn (IV.19) where this must refer to Paravrj:


    “Lord of horses, you have brought the son of Agru from his dwelling, where he was being devoured by the ants; when extricated, although blind, he distinguished the serpent; and when he came forth the joints that had been sundered in the ant-hill were restrung.”


    Of course, that sounds exactly like Valmiki. However it is still the Lame and Blind metaphor we just reviewed. So besides matching the name, it "fits". Although this is the only place ants are mentioned. The "serpent" he beholds is:


    ahim



    Blind and Lame is even definable as a Greek metaphor, which refers to two individuals compensating each other, rather than what sounds like spiritual diseases being healed.


    Here, the ant, "vamri", is a feminized "vamra", which is the name of the "wilderness" Rishi, but also is said to be this type of "ant" in the weird VIII.102:


    Upajihvikā (उपजिह्विका).—

    1) The uvula or soft palate; epiglottis; Y.3.97.

    2) Enlargement of the under side of the tongue.

    3) A kind of ant


    It is derived from "jihva", "tongue", and "upa", "near".

    In context, that ant is chewing timber.

    If Sayana's comment is correct, then Paravrj was infested with wood-eating ants. Not sure what to make of that. This "ant" is supposed to indicate that you can burn naturally-fallen wood, and don't have to use an axe for everything.


    We can be fairly sure "Paravrj, son of Agru" is about "The Outcaste, son of an Unmarried Mother".



    The Rishi of VIII.102 is the antecedent of Asanga:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): prayogo bhārgava agnirvā pāvako bārhaspatyaḥ ; athavāgnī gṛhapatiyaviṣṭhau sahasaḥ sutau tayorvānyataraḥ


    If one was to think of "Bhargavas" as more relevant to Vedic events than "Bhrgus", this would be among the important branches. He does say:

    “Like Aurva Bhṛgu and like Apanvān, I invoke the pure Agni, dwelling in the midst of the sea.”

    Apnavana and the Bhrgus are also recalled by Vamadeva, and a similar line is repeated three times in Yajur Veda, along with Bharatas and Angirases, which is copied again into Bharadvaja Srauta Sutra. "Apnavana" is from the same root as Apta/Aptya, referring to "offspring". So, yes, they are honored, but otherwise seem to dissipate compared to multiple "Bhargavas".




    Also present in the related IV.19 are Turviti and Vayya having the rivers stopped for them. This is after slaying Ahi on the Full Moon.

    It sounds a bit like the Turvasas and Yadus had perhaps been excluded from office due to a lack of marriage somewhere.

    Meaning "paravrj" is pure metaphor and not a person at all. The individuals tend to be such as Dirghatamas--Blind and Vadhryasva--Lame, with a single symptom. This "ants" version is again an *Indra* hymn, not Aswins. He of course is most frequently applied to kings and tribes.

    Praskanva uses the phrase "near Turvasa", as in the opposite of "far away", as if close to him personally.

    There are at least seven instances of the Yadus coming to aid the Kanvas. At least five about rivers stopped for them.

    VI.27 originally ranked the Yadu adversaries with Vrcivans/Varcin.


    We are told:


    The first incident is clearly a very old one, in which Indra is
    credited with bringing the Yadus and TurvaSas safely over flooded
    rivers: 1.174.9; IV.30.17; V.31.8; Vl.20.12; 45.1.

    The second incident, in which the Yadus came to the aid of the
    KaNvas in fighting their enemies, in response to an appeal contained
    in 1.36.18 (in which they are called from afar to come to the aid of
    KaNva), is referred to in 1.36.18; 54.6; Vlll.4.7; 7.18; 9.14; 45.27;
    X.49.8.


    That is how he begins looking at Trasadasyu is "highly praised", while maintaining the Rg Veda is about the Bharatas and Aryas. It seems to me the Veda simply inserts them as a "bubble" within the Ikshvakus. It is about manifesting its teaching all across a wide geographical area during this king. And if we prowl these references, we will find they hook into the two significant locations that are *within* India that The Trikadruka Days are based in.



    On these Kanva excursions, Punarvatsa's VIII.7 is quite plain:


    For wealth, we think of that whereby ye aided Yadu, Turvasa,
    And KanVa who obtained the spoil.


    He adds Himachal Pradesh in a verse for Maruts:


    Susoma, Saryakiavan, and Arjika full of homes, have they.
    These Heroes, sought with downward car.


    which is quite similar to Praskanva VIII.49:


    “As you, Maghavan, did give abundant kine and gold to Kaṇva and Trasadasyu, to Paktha and Daśavraja; as you did give them to Gośarya and Ṛjiśvan.”


    Although "Arjika" signifies the Beas River, we think the name may be derived from "country of Rjisvan". I do not know the Samhita actually says this, but, the name has no documented origin. The only synonym would be an epithet of Indra. So, it may mean the Rishi, or the deity, but if it is not one of those, there are no other guesses.


    Sasakarna's VIII.9 pleads the Angiras Gotra and the Solar Dynasty:


    As erst Kaksivan and the Rsi Vyasva, as erst Dirghatamas invoked your presence,
    Or, in the sacrificial chambers, Vainya Prthi, so be ye mindful of us here, O Asvins.


    before giving a generic meaning of Turvana:


    Or as all-conquering might in war, be that the Asvins' noblest grace.



    followed by Soma Offering:


    turváše yádāv imé káṇveṣu


    “Come, Aśvins, these libations are prepared for you; those libations which were presented you by Turvaśa and Yadu, they are now offered to you by Kaṇvas.”

    I.54 distinguishes:


    Turvasa, and Yadu, and Vayya's son Turviti



    Trisoka's VIII.45 leads to Arbuda:


    In battle of a thousand arms Indra drank Kadru's Soma juice:
    There he displayed his manly might.

    True undeniable strength he found in Yadu and in Turvasa,
    And conquered through the sacrifice.



    Broadly, one might perhaps say that the Aswins' Blind and Lame *additionally* speak of these two former foes, who, with Kadru as a turning point, subjugate Arbuda.

    So this is probably the same metaphor that *also* applies to Arjika country, which was probably taken *first*, via Usas.




    There are a lot of Kanvas, and so it should be possible to form a relative chronology from them.


    There are sequential verses in Sadhvamsa's VIII.8 with Medhatithi followed by Trasadasyu.


    Most importantly or present tense is Sobhari's VIII.19 where a verse bonds Sobharis and Usas followed by Trasadasyu.


    We Sobharis have come to him, for succour, who is good to help with thousand powers,
    The Sovran, Trasadasyu's Friend.

    or:


    “We, the Sobharis, have come to the thousand-rayed, the sincerely- worshipped, the universal sovereign, the ally of Trasadasyu, for his protection.”

    A gift of fifty female slaves hath Trasadasyu given me, Purukutsa's son


    So, even the first part of Book Eight, by minor Rishis, generally already sees Trasadasyu in the past. No one has really researched how far back the Kanvas go, or, how much the compilation of the Rg Veda may have derived from Medhatithi. I could be wrong, he may be more of an "inspiration" than a "final editor".


    It would take some work to verify, but, it sounds a bit like Kanva Ghaura was a Darsan Rishi, and, it is later Kanvas by the assistance of additional tribes and Trasadasyu, perhaps are better informed about Usas, the Aswins, and Soma Offering. Then the late families Kasyapas and Atreyas have this "complete liturgy" as a starting point. This would help explain the Kanvas arranging the Rg Veda, if that is the case.


    Some Puranas assert that Praskanva is the line from Medhatithi. Whereas Praskanva in VIII.49 clearly refers to:


    medhyātithiṃ yathā nīpātithiṃ


    so Praskanva refers to "some" Kanvas before him.

    Srustigu VIII.51 refers back to him later:


    “The descendant of Pṛṣadvana entertained the aged Praskaṇva who lay rejected (by his kindred);aided by you the seer Dasyave-vṛka desired to obtain thousands of cows.”



    So, yes, there are a few instances of isolation of an individual, for which you might give "Outcast" as the generic symptom.


    Even if my idea is not right, the Vedic mantras are arranged in a completely sinister way such as:


    Medhatithi quotes Trita Aptya into Book One

    Although the older Kanvas may have been outside of the main Usas lineage, this is exactly what they return, because in their Family Book is where Trita gives the theologically pivotal Nightmare Usas.

    This mantra also includes Dvita. It is followed by a Praskanva Soma hymn.

    If Kasyapa is included in Book One in a really weird way, that is somewhat reflected in this area of Book Eight:


    Manu Vaivasvata or KaSyapa MArIca
    MedhAtithi KANva
    MedhyAtithi KANva
    NIpAtithi KANva
    SyAvASva Atreya
    NAbhAka KANva
    NAbhAka KANva, ArcanAnas Atreya
    VirUpa ANgiras
    TriSoka KANva
    VaSa ASvya
    Trita Aptya
    PragAtha KANva
    PraskaNva KANva
    PuSTigu KANva
    SruSTigu KANva



    Book Nine:


    KaSyapa MArIca
    NodhAs Gautama
    KaNva Ghaura
    PraskaNva KANva


    In Book One, Kanva does not mention her, and then Praskanva invokes Usas in the first line and then Usas and the Aswins.

    He follows Vasus, Rudras, and Adityas with this famous vision:


    trayastriṃśatam


    He refers to some prior invokers:


    priyamedhavad atrivaj jātavedo virūpavat |


    "Jatavedas" simply means they are practicing the same rik or mantra system; and then we have to figure out, is this about legendary Rishis such as the Seven Sages, or, their namesakes composing our known hymns?


    They are a "they":

    kaṇvasya


    and he brings in a subject something like "divinized person":


    daivyaṃ janam


    His next hymn is on Usas and Aswins:


    Soma, the animator of your minds


    with a historical suggestion of Aswins' recipients:


    Kanva and Sudas


    and perhaps apprehensively:


    Have you not ever drunk the Soma in the favoured dwelling of the Kaṇvas?


    He then goes straight to Usas and tells her:


    Uṣas, speak to me kind words

    sūnṛtā uṣaś


    and brings in another stock expression:


    the breath and life of all (creatures) rest in you

    prāṇanaṃ jīvanaṃ


    these abilities:


    Uṣas, bring from the firmament all the gods

    you have today set upon the two gates of heaven with light



    Oddly his last hymn is an appeal to Surya to get rid of his jaundice.


    In the Soma Book he makes this unusual claim:


    The green-tinted Soma being let loose propels the voice that indicates the path of truth as the boatman (propels his) boat; the bright Soma reveals to his worshipper on the sacred grass the secret names of the god.

    So Praskanva was at or shortly after the time of Sudas. Nothing else that clearly makes him later.


    To my ear, he is a noticeably better poet than Kanva, who looks like a closer fit to the time of Book Six. So if we see the way they are combined in Book One, the first generation would show a general Visvedevas concept, with nothing, at least to me, boldly leaping off the page, and the second generation immediately switched to Usas and the Aswins.

    We find a reference to "Medhyatithi", as distinguished from "Medhatithi". Here is how he is arranged into Book Eight:




    1 PragAtha KANva, MedhAtithi KANva,
    MedhyAtithi KANva

    2 MedhAtithi KANva, Priyamedha ANgiras

    3 MedhyAtithi KANva

    33 MedhyAtithi KANva



    The first hymn in the Book is not exactly like that; the first two verses appear to be the Vedic way of saying "or":


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): pragātho ghauraḥ kāṇvo vā


    Most of it seems to be by "and":


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): medhātithimedhyātithī kāṇvau


    older references:


    “When Sūrya harassed Etaśa, Śatakratu conveyed (to his aid) Kutsa, the son of Arjuni, with his two prancing horses (swift) as the wind, and stealthily approached the irresistible Gandharva.”


    your two peacock-tailed, white-backed horses



    "Vayu first" is named backwards:


    the principal graha libation, called Aindravāyava


    strange kind of "forts":


    You have broken to pieces the moveable city of Śuṣṇa

    cariṣṇvaṃ



    The end is a significant donation:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): āsaṅgaḥ plāyogiḥ

    Praise (me), praise (me), Medhyātithi, for among the wealthy we are the most liberal donors of wealth to you


    Asanga sounds self-reflexive here:


    skilled is Yadu's son in dealing precious wealth, he who is rich in herds of kine


    it ends on a sexual verse which is also said to mean political revolution:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): śaśvatyāṅgirasyāsaṅgasya patnī

    “Śaśvatī, perceiving that the sings of manhood were restored, exclaims, "Joy, husband, you are capable of enjoyment".”


    Elsewhere, it is a bit like a man gains a kingdom by overcoming impotence, and then the kingdom is taken by another impotent man.

    Vedic Asanga is rather powerful, probably a Yadava, a donor to Medhyatithi, and the son or disciple of Prayoga Bhargava of VIII.102.

    In turn, again, we think he is one of many "Bhargavas" descended from Bharga Pragatha of VIII.60-61, who in turn from Pragatha Kanva, who is the main one or architect of Book Eight. It is named for him and a style of verse. It would seem that Bharga must be at least as early as Visvamitra, which implies Pragatha would have been one of the earliest Kanvas.



    In Medhyatithi's words, VIII.3 has just a few historical ties, such as:


    “I solicit you, Indra, for such vigour and for such food as may be hoped for in priority (to others),wherewith you have granted to Bhṛgu the wealth taken from those who had desired from sacrifices, wherewith you have protected prakṣaṇva.”


    Indra has helped:


    the son of Puru

    Ruśama, Śyāvaka and Kṛpa


    These praise Indra similarly:


    kaṇvā iva bhṛgavaḥ

    men of the Priyamedha race



    Indra has defeated:


    arbudasya mṛgayasya


    Ahi


    and ends with another donor:


    pākasthāmnaḥ kaurayāṇasya dānastutiḥ



    That is most likely a form of "Kuru".

    Because he does speak favorably of "Bhrgus", this may have caused everyone to conflate it with "Bhargavas"; however, Book Eight makes it quite obvious that the Veda involves mostly "Bhargavas" who are actually a branch of Kanvas. Jamadagni Bhargava represents the east and Vasistha's domain, Prayoga Bhargava appears committed to the southwest.


    VIII.33 is erroneously attributed, it is mostly by Medhatithi, who refers to Medhyatithi as if a current participant in the offering; also to Asanga in his effeminate condition. Since we have just shown Asanga rolls out of the multiple generations, this may be a good clue that Medhatithi is in a time with literally a treasure trove of hymns to select from. Like a collector. The whole Rg Veda has only a few hundred Rishis, but, once it became anything like a thousand in a generation, and, many of them made multiple hymns, there could have been fifty Rg Vedas of sheer volume.


    Medhatithi is at least in a conglomerate, something important has transitioned, and it is simply not quite at the end of the Vedic collection. Book One does not seem to have anybody that would be distinguishably later than Medhatithi in order to be suggested as a "later compiler". He possibly could have arranged Book One and the Old Books. In turn he is a memory and imprint for the Kanva Family Book. Original Kanva is not in it. One appears more interested in origins, Eight more in development and spread.









    The most significant thing I have found is that Indian history pancake-collapses like the World Trade Center because several names are epithets or aliases of a single person, and, several things that look like dynasties turn out to be simultaneous, since other actors are brothers and cousins rather than sons and descendants.


    The treatment of personal names is very delicate.

    When Vamadeva says "I am Kaksivan", he is speaking about Indra, not himself. So far it seems Kaksivan may occupy the interlude between Sudas and Trasadasyu.


    On this issue, from what we have just scratched up about the Kanvas, we have already bumped in to what could be called the one "problem" in Rg Veda mantras.


    Here I think we can prove something immediately.

    We were told Book Eight is "late", so Trasadasyu is not redacted there. Following the logic that Vamadeva must be a "distant descendant" of Gotama, Talageri dismissed Book Four as a redaction. However it looks like this misses the whole point, Trasadasyu *is* Book Four, because this is what the whole thing is about, which is *why* he is also inserted into previously existing hymns.

    I believe that Book Eight is affected by the same syndrome.

    What seems to make sense corresponding with other hymns is:


    VIII.3, Medhyatithi speaks of Praskanva


    Bhrgu and the Yatis and Praskanva



    which makes this an anachronism:


    VIII.49, Praskanva speaks of Medhyatithi and Trasadasyu


    “O Indra, we long for such a bounty of yours, rich in kine; (help us), Maghavan, as you did help Medhyātithi with wealth, as you did help Nīpātithi.”

    “As you, Maghavan, did give abundant kine and gold to Kaṇva and Trasadasyu, to Paktha and Daśavraja; as you did give them to Gośarya and Ṛjiśvan.”



    Those are the final two verses, which have an odd sound for an ending, and it may arguably have been complete without these. The idea seems to have put Trasadasyu with a group of Kanvas almost directly lifted from the neighboring hymn Srustigu VIII.51, which itself was tied to something else:


    manau sāṃvaraṇau


    this has an incomprehensible ending without looking at other Kanva hymns:


    “That wealth, which every Ārya here covets and every miserly Dāsa, is sent direct to you, the pious Ruśama Paviru.”


    ruśame parīravi


    parīravi < _ < √_
    [?]

    “_”



    So, we will guess the end of VIII.49 is an "honorary tribute" like in VI.20.

    VIII.51 reflects VIII.3 with the mysterious recipient of wealth.


    Comparatively, throughout Book Eight, Trasadasyu is only mentioned by those whom we take to be "late":


    8 Sadhvamsa

    19, 22 Sobhari

    tṛkṣíṃ vṛṣaṇā trāsadasyavám

    36 SyAvASva Atreya


    who, beyond an honorable mention, makes a theological pact:


    “Hear (the praises) of Śyāvāśva offering the libations, as you have heard (those) of Atri engaged in holy rites; you alone, Indra, have defended Trasadasyu in battle, animating his prayers.”

    Atri is the last Gotra Rishi, who is very significant for attaining Trasadasyu into his allied fold.



    From Praskanva in Book One as a clear generational leap in liturgy, then, if possible for him to be known, Trasadasyu would have been all over the place. But actually he is probably only mentioned by Sobhari and one other Kanva. This amounts to recognition, but far from the weight given in Book Four.

    That would make sense, taking VIII.49 to be among the alterations that appear to "exalt" Trasadasyu.

    Otherwise, one would have to take Praskanva as so "aged", and the gap between Sudas and Trasadasyu so small, that the contradiction from VIII.3 is overturned.


    The evidently backwards view of the Puranas on Medhatithi who has Praskanva as son seems to come from this unavailable remark:


    The maharṣi referred to in Śūkta 12, Anuvāka 4, Maṇḍala 1 of Ṛgveda is Medhātithi son of Kaṇva.


    Nothing like that is there. This idea seems to have crossed the grain:


    4) Medhātithi (मेधातिथि).—A sage who was the father of Arundhatī, wife of Vasiṣṭha. This Medhātithi who was living in an āśrama on the banks of the river Candrabhāgā performed a Jyotiṣṭoma yajña. (Kālikā Purāṇa).


    He sounds distorted in every one of those texts.


    Even though this might be figurative for two hundred and nine, Vedic Medhyatithi says:


    Invigorated by (the praises of) a thousand ṛṣis...


    which makes it reasonable to assess he is beyond the period of a few Navagvas and a handful of followers. Something, in his time, is at least underway, if it is not yet as full-blown as with Vamadeva and Atri.

    Only having the "y" as the difference in their names, he appears to be in a dual role with the more prevalent Medhatithi, that is, received his appointment due to influence. In what amounts to Pragatha Kanva's Book Eight, this plausibly later Sage comes in as:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): medhātithiḥ kāṇvaḥ priyamedhaścāṅgirasaḥ


    “Worship, Priyamedha, with mind intent upon him, that Indra, who is truthful when exhilarated by the Soma potations.”


    That perhaps is a bit hasty, and is intended as "follower of Priyamedha", which would agree with the older Kanvas. That is the impression I get, rather than the individual Priyamedha as a co-author or addressee.


    He combines his helper with Indra as Mesa:

    “You, thunderer, approaching in the form of a ram, have come to Medhyātithi, one of the race of Kaṇva, thus propitiating you.”


    It *may* be a reference to the Age of Aries. It clearly is about a Ram in a way that does not sound common. Savya Angiras uses this to start a hymn also having Arbuda.


    The end of the first Medhatithi is a donation simply by:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): medhātithiḥ

    having this unusual benefactor:


    Vibhindu





    Next, Medhatithi is after a Manu Vaivasvata section. This Manu area receives a contemporary Buddhist comment:


    Safe from robbers: avṛkam stenarahitam = free from any annoyances, bādhārahitam


    and uses stock expressions such as:


    triṃśati trayas


    serpent speech:


    saparyantaḥ purupriyam


    It closely echoes Atharvan and Dadhyan of Yajur Veda. It offers very similar Visvedeva praises without a grain of historical context or any other named Rishis.

    Only one hymn is co-credited with Kasyapa, which is interesting because here, instead of deity names, it only uses an image or symbol, which mostly have an immediate and direct implication such as the first:


    “One (Tvaṣṭā) immoveably stationed among the gods, holds his metal axe in his hand.”


    up to:

    “Two (the Aśvins), travel with swift (horses) along with one (bride Sūrya), like travellers to foreign countries.”


    we cannot be sure this is the best guess:


    “Some (the Atris) when worshipping, call to mind the great Sāman, wherewith they light up the suṇ”



    because we know various Gotras performed different Samans, and, if anything, the Kanvas have associated themselves with "Priyamedhas". Kasyapa follows Marica. The interpretation of "some" does not have to specify "Atreyas".


    Manu is even more like Yajur Veda because he concludes with Dampati:


    Gods, may the husband and wife, who with one mind offer libations and purify them...



    I find the resemblance rather strong, Manu Vaivasvata of Book Eight is highly akin to the framework of Sukla Yajur Veda or Vajasenayi Samhita (VS).

    We may even be able to argue this is the "nucleus" of Book One, the Rg Veda as a whole, and some upa-mandalas and perhaps the Family Books. It *does* try to convey a Visvedevas pantheon, to which, further details about Indra, Usas, Brhaspati, etc., are available.


    Right after Manu, in a vast hymn in the middle of his Family Book, Medhatithi recalls several obscure Indra exploits but includes the adversary of Rjisvan, Pipru. This next part, however, is placed in a more current context:


    “Pierce the rain-holding domain of the vast Arbuda; achieve, Indra, this manly exploit.”


    the hymn is self-answering, as it returns in the later verses that Indra affects Arbuda with:


    himenāvidhyad


    snow, frost, or wintery conditions.


    Arbuda is only mentioned in hymns 3 and 32 by the two associated Kanvas. However it seems to have been a fairly early event. Therefor, the two Kanvas have selected something from intellectual history which...is about the same as quoting Trita Aptya leading to Visvarupa and the Waters. In other words, they were probably uninvolved/geographically separate, since that is more closely related to Kutsa. The Kanvas are thereby adding something from outside of their personal experience.


    Medhatithi uses this for "the many praisers":


    puruṣṭuta priyamedhastutā


    and also:

    We, the thousand Vasurociṣas


    which perhaps makes sense as "Vasus", Rishis of the rank of Indra.


    As a subject, "Priyamedha" is in 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 69.

    Is the author of 68-69.

    Here, he makes another Buddhist image:


    hastā vajraṃ hiraṇyayam ||


    and this is the area where he deals with famous Kings that would demolish the Puranas:


    Indrota, Rksa, Asvamedha


    who give this kind of steeds:

    ṛjrāv


    The ones who were invited to the rite are only called "sons of" the named kings. The first is clearly named:


    ātithigva indrote


    and he has jumped into the "planned" offering by the other two. Then it is noted he gives this kind of high-quality mare:


    ṛjreṣv aruṣī


    Priyamedha adds a few things that victory in battles is not his complete motivation:


    “When Indra, and I ascend to our home, the world of the sun, then, having drunk the sweet (Soma), let us be united in the twenty-first sphere of the (universal) friend.”


    The Priyamedhas have reached the ancient dwelling place of these deities...




    "Atithigva" may be Divodasa, so, "Indrota" may mean Sudas. Although it sounds like it would be a common title, it is only found in one other instance by Parucchepa Daivodasi, where it has the same "to you" connotation as:


    rudrāya, mitrāya, varuṇāya



    And in fact this is outright stolen because Indrota becomes Puranic Saunaka.

    And is re-used in the legend of Asvamedha, the ritual. This involves, according to Satapatha Brahmana:


    king Purukutsa of Ikṣāku race

    King Bharata Dauhsyanti executed the Aśvamedha sacrifice and attained the vast territory and wide administration. One such gāthā praising the glorious deeds of king Bharata runs thus-once the king Bharata performed the Aśvamedha sacrifice with a thousand horses and that time there was no king who preceded him.


    In Aitareya Brahmana:


    The king Sāryāta Mānava was consecrated by the sage Chyāvana Bhārgava.

    The king Viśvakarmā Bhauvana was anointed by the sage Kāsyapa.

    Vaisiṣṭha consecrated Sudās Paijāvana.

    The sage Udamaya Ātreya (i.e. son of Atri) anointed king Anga.

    The sage Dirghatama consecrated the king Bharata, son of Duṣmanta.


    The Brahmanical tellings feed into all the Puranas and especially the Mahabharata. As well as to Indrota, "Saunaka" is applied to Grtsamada. But these are "later designs" that flow from ignorance of, but, an attempt to fathom, the Vedas. Inevitably, a few bits of it wind up being accurate with matching data. Indrota Saunaka has the third name "Dvaipa", from whom you get Krishna Dvaipayana, and the Mahabharata is written.

    Generally, the distortions cause Kanvas and Priyamedhas to fade from view. It is difficult, but, they appear to span the majority of the Veda's chain of events.



    Priyamedha's hymn from Book Eight is in flux, since it may be that "Atithigva" is a term for the office of Bharata kingship. We only know of it specifically applied to Divodasa. If this is who the mantra is talking about, it may be touchy if Sudas and Asvamedha are said to be contemporaries, since Vedic Asvamedha Bharata is part of V.27:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): trayaruṇastraivṛṣṇastrasadasyuśca paurukutsa aśvamedhaśca bhārato'virvā


    Book Eight has "Indrota, son of Atithigva", and then inversely, the invitees are called "the son of Rksa" and "the son of Asvamedha" without personal names. If Priyamedha is relatively early, it cannot be possible for him to deal with a son of Trasadasyu's generation. V.27 may be the most powerful hymn known since it means all three of those have become donors to Atri.

    It, of course, is not impossible there are two Asvamedhas, as there seem to be two Atris, Kutsas, and others. Without a two-name format, or, a clear association to distant events, it is difficult to be sure. Because it is a "House", we expect "Bharata" may be passed as a continuous name like "Angiras" or "Kanva", so it would be likely that Asvamedha Bharata is not terribly remote from Vadhryasva Bharata of the time of Book Six. This name seems to have persisted more reliably than "Sudas".


    We did not think the Samhita gave much exit strategy for Sudas, he was important and then just seems to teleport out of consideration.

    The descent of Sudas is suggested in an odd comment on Visvamitra:


    These sacrificers are the Bhojas: ime bhojā aṅgiraso virūpā: bhojā = kṣatriya descendants of Sudās, sudāsaḥ kṣatriya, yāgam kurvāṇaḥ, instituting the sacrifice at which the latter, Medhātithi, and the rest of the race of aṅgiras were their yājakas, or officiating priests.


    Bhoja has connotations of Vidarbha and the Yadavas, but is not elsewhere a proper name in Rg Veda.

    The expected form Saudasa is not found in any Veda, but is heavily used by Puranas, where again para-Vedic lineages appear to be whirled like a frog in a blender.


    Priyamedha's authorship is unclear for his other suggestion in Book Eight, as the speaker appears to be an individual in VIII.87:


    Dyumnī = dyumnīka: Aśvins, Dyumnīka is your praiser

    The worshippers: priyamedhaḥ


    Priyamedha's Soma hymn makes you wonder if this was called the Atris:


    “This purified, all-contemplating, all-knowing (Soma) gives radiance to the sun and all the spheres (of light).”


    Priyamedha's VIII.68-69 appears to be another critical alliance of perhaps "Three Tribes" or at least three important kingdoms, similar to what happens to Atri.


    The Kanvas and Medhatithi keep his name as an influence. Does Medhatithi have any way to organize himself into the pattern actually?


    In Book One, Medhatithi gives synonyms for Agni (e. g., Tanunapat, Narasamsa, Ilita). He gets to this for Nestr:


    gnāvo neṣṭaḥ

    Neṣṭā (= Tvaṣṭā), with your spouse


    Draviṇodas desires to drink with the Ṛtu from the cup of Neṣṭā


    He mostly has routine Visvedevas praises, where his most poignant thing to say appears to be about Brahmanaspati:


    “Brahmaṇaspati (=Agni, connected with prayer) make the offerer of the libation illustrious among the gods, like Kakṣīvat, the son of Uśij (and Dīrghatamas).”


    dhīnāṃ yogam

    dhī = buddhi


    There is also an affinity for the Rbhus:


    devāya janmane


    They who created mentally for Indra the horses...

    the Aswins' chariot and cow, and:


    The Ṛbhus have divided unto four the new ladle, the work of the divine Tvaṣṭā



    He uses an epithet for Savitr like that of Ghosa's son:

    hiraṇyapāṇim

    The verses recognize the dangerous power of Savitr to dry everything up.


    He has a few expressions for:


    ...the wives (of the gods), Hotrā (wife of Agni or personified invocation), Bhāratī (an Āditya), Varutrī (= varaṇīyā, chosen), and Dhiṣaṇā (= vāc or vāg-devī, goddess of speech)


    “May the goddesses, whose wings are unclipt the protectresses of mankind, favour us with perfection, and with entire felicity.”


    Sayana says they were in the form of birds. The mantra literally refers to wings or feathers, acchinda, uncut.



    Indrāṇī, Varuṇānī, and Agnāyī


    are less obscure but invoked. If his mantras have any character, he spends multiple verses emphasizing:


    Vishnu Trivikrama


    and that the wise contemplate his highest step:


    paramam padaṃ


    He gives this unusual relationship:


    Maruts are puṣarātayaḥ, of whom Pūṣan is the donor


    Maruts, born from the brilliant lightning

    Pūṣan, bring from heaven the Soma juice, in combination with the variegated sacred grass, as (a man brings back) an animal that was lost.

    “The resplendent Pūṣan has found the royal (Soma juice), although concealed, hidden in a secret place, strewed amongst the sacred grass.”

    he has brought to me successively the six (seasons), connected with the drops (of the Soma juice)




    Towards the end of his section, Apah or Waters gain a familiar expression as "Mothers":


    ambayo


    Considering this is a main topic of Yajur Veda, and that he is copying Sindhudvipa from Book Ten, he further adds:


    “May those waters which are contiguous to the Sun, and those with which the Sun is associated, be propitious to our rite.”

    Ambrosia is in the waters; in the waters are medicinal herbs

    “Soma has declared to me, 'all medicaments, as well as Agni, the benefactor of the universe, are in the waters'; the waters, contain all healing herbs.”

    “Waters, bring to perfection all disease-dispelling medicaments for (the good of) my body, that I may long behold the sun.”

    “Waters, take away whatever sin has been (found) in me whether I have (knowingly) done wrong, or have pronounced imprecations (against holy men) or (have spoken) untruth.”


    Medhatithi is post-Kaksivan obviously, and after Sindhudvipa, by the presumed direction of the copying.


    He does not have Trasadasyu, or the complexity such as in Vamadeva's style. Nothing shows him in that powerful of a central role.

    I would say it is library-esque. His personal compositions reflect something of a blueprint for the Rg Veda's individual Speech. It is also reminiscent of Yajur Veda.




    I am not sure if anyone else calls themselves "Priyamedhas" in the way the Kanvas repeatedly merge it with themselves.

    They seem to have begun from Ghora Angira, who is barely known. Priyamedha has one possible son or disciple, who is the one from the famous River Hymn X.75:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): sindhukṣitpraiyamedhaḥ


    This is where we have Ganges in the same line with Sutudri--Sutlej and Arjikiya = Vipasa--Beas.

    This line offers praise and tells them to listen; a verse is inserted here in some MSS, not noticed by Sāyaṇa: "Those who are drowned at the confluence of the Sita and Asita go to heaven; the resolute people who abandon their lives (thus) enjoy immortality"


    The next set has a different dynamic:


    ...in order to reach the swift-moving Gomatī, have united...


    The praising line contains ten although it is commented into Book One as Sapta Sindhu or Seven Rivers.



    In Book One, Medhatithi refers to Kaksivan and not much else. In Book Eight, Kaksivan is only mentioned in Sasakarna VIII.9, which makes no secret of the primacy:


    “When verily you arrive, Aśvins, the ṛṣi understands with excellent (comprehension) the praise (to be addressed to you); he will sprinkle the sweet- flavoured Soma and the gharma (oblation) on Atharvan fire.”


    Sunrta:


    Uṣas, truth-speaking mighty goddess, awake the Aśvins; invoker of the adorable (deities, arouse them)successively


    “When, Uṣas, you move with radiance, you shine equally with the sun; and this chariot of the Aśvins proceeds to the hall of sacrifice frequented by the leaders (of the rite).”


    It sounds consistent with a realm of tales from ancient invocation of Agni through the Aswins winning their bride.



    Kanva is mentioned outside of his Family in a limited way. He is "helped" by the Aswins according to Kutsa in a way that is meaningless unless is that of Rebha and Vandana, both of whom were in the Waters Down a Well and what they were helped to do is:


    svar dṛśe


    which, I, at least, take purely metaphysically, I do not think there is a mundane meaning for this.

    Kanva is also in Kaksivan I.117:


    “You gave, Aśvins, a lovely bride to Śyāvā; you gave sight to Kaṇva, unable to see his way; showerers (of benefits), the deed is to be glorified by which you gave hearing to the son of Nṛṣad.”


    Kanva is simply mentioned as Blind in I.118.


    The first mention is all the same person, Kanva, son of Nrsad is in Kavasa Ailusa X.31 where he is "dark-tinted", syava.

    Same name is credited by Nabhanedhistha Manava for gaining Susna's armor.

    Nrsad is, according to Vamadeva, perhaps similar to "consciousness", taken as a "dweller in man" as Nara + Sat.


    Kaksivan refers to original Kanva; Medhatithi in turn refers to Kaksivan.

    Sasakarna does the same, but, he adds more actors, suggesting he is post-Medhatithi.


    The person that Sasakarna asks them to assist in the current time is Vatsa Kanva of 6 and 8.


    He adds another previous Aswins rescue or cure for Vyasva, which has a literal meaning as used by Kutsa:


    Pṛthi, when had lost his horse


    but is a well-known Rishi such as in IX.65:


    Sing, as Vyaśva did...

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): bhṛgurvāruṇirjamadagnirvā


    Book Eight has his follower or descendant Visvamana Vaiyasva.

    This character is late enough to mention helping Kutsa twice. He has "connected" the verse from X.75:



    ...who enriches (the dwellers) on the seven rivers...


    which is about a donation:


    varoḥ sauṣāmṇasya dānastutiḥ

    “If any ask of you, (Uṣas), when anywhere present, where the sacrificer (Varu dwells), (reply) the powerful (prince), the refuge of all, abides on (the banks of) the Gomatī river.”


    Vyasva Angiras is only co-credited in VIII.26, where he is again in past tense because it is mostly by his son. This one includes a phrase similar to Buddhist Dakarnava:


    divo arṇava

    the water of the firmament


    we may have to allow him an allegory:


    Śvetayāvarī, the golden-pathed river

    the river is said to have praised the Aśvins, as the ṛṣi lived on its banks. These banks are golden, and consequently enrich those who live near.


    This is like "Gomati" did not specify a *river*, but the act of enrichment. This verse implies the same thing. Visvamana and Varu probably are near a "river" that we don't get a literal name for--it is called Prosperity. Insisting that the Gomati is the Kausika is one thing that has been done. Syavasva calls it the home of Rathaviti Darbhya "in the mountains". He also uses Urmya for Night, as does Kusika in a variant of Nightmare Usas.

    Praskanva uses "Gomati" for Usas, same as Gotama does.


    "Sindhu" is already a white river, rich in everything. He is described as trying to "reach" the Gomati by advancing through several rivers. X.75 does not have the tone that Varu just lives there and gives us everything.

    Sindhuksit Praiyamedha and Visvamana Vaiyasva seem to make a "before and after" of this situation.



    The second half of VIII.26 is praises, which, perhaps could be attributable to Vyasva. There is "Tvastr's son-in-law" in a way that leads to conjecture:


    Vāyu, the wind, having taken water from Āditya, fertilizes it, as rain, and is, therefore, as it were, his son-in-law, identifying Tvaṣṭā with Āditya (Yajus. 27.34)


    To Vayu:


    “We, the offerers of Soma, solicit riches from the sovereign, the son- in-law of Tvaṣṭā; (may we become) wealthy.”





    The hymns by Pragatha Kanva are quite undeveloped, and, for example, do not have any weird people from the mists of Book Six. He hasn't really got any people, and only refers to Vrtra and to the Angirases recovering cattle. The only kind of event he relates is towards the end of VIII.64:


    “This is your beloved most exhilarating Soma which grows in the Śaryaṇāvat lake by the Suṣomā river in the Ārjikīya country.”


    Paradoxically, he then says he is in sorrow, although his children are well off. Kali Pragatha appears to explain this in the next hymn, where Indra overpowers a foe believed to be Akkadian:


    bekanāṭām̐

    who see only this world's days.


    Although he mentions Kalayas as descendants, no one else does. They know Bhargavas. In this area, the hymns of Bharga Pragatha are again totally plain except perhaps for the use of Adhrigu. Neither of what we would take to be the direct descendants of Pragatha Kanva have hymns found elsewhere in the Rg Veda.

    The starting point of what a "Book of Pragatha" could possibly mean, is to place Arjikiya in a positive light, and to use Indra against the Bekanata. Not much else about it.

    That makes perfect sense in intellectual history as a near-descendant of how Brhaspati articulated Speech.

    It may be easy to relate to. Kanva is not Vasistha. He seems to have come in as an outsider, and, gotten to the point of Darshan. What is that. When they say Srauta or Hearing, that is the training rank, where you learn and recite existing hymns. It is a higher grade to be able to "see" the hymns, which would be difficult since there is not supposed to be any written script. Nothing to look at. They are "seeing" sound. So the Kanvas are more devout than they are "born" Rishis, and then it is probably just a few generations and Pragatha gives this remarkable example.

    If it would have ended there, then, they would resemble the other Family Books, but, there is more quantity than I have even begun to deal with.






    Among these Rishis, we found the riddle of how "Atithigva" is probably an office that passes from person to person. It was suggested his "associates" are similar. These ersatz representatives of "Three Tribes" are humbled by someone who *may* be an alternym of Divodasa. Praskanva I.49 asked Usas to aid Susravas, who is lost in translation:


    “Uṣas, in the ample and beautiful chariot in which you ride, come today, daughter of heaven, to the pious offerer of the oblation.”


    It was also called "men of noble fame". In this sense, there would be the approximation "Susravases" = "Kanvas".

    This is today, ongoing, not the original incident.


    Gotama calls Soma:


    suśravastamaḥ



    This is a bit like asking Usas to her next marriage to Soma.


    As an "incident", he however is definitely an individual given by Savya I.53:


    With all-outstripping chariot-wheel, O Indra, thou far-famed, hast overthrown the twice ten Kings of men,
    With sixty thousand nine-and-ninety followers, who came in arms to fight with friendless Susravas.

    Thou hast protected Susravas with succour, and Turvayana with thine aid, O Indra.
    Thou madest Kutsa, Atithigva, Ayu, subject unto this King, the young, the mighty.


    Susravas has an "Outcast" motif there.

    It is the same trio conquered in Grtsamada II.14:


    Ye ministers, to him who slew a hundred thousand, and cast them down upon earth's bosom;
    Who quelled the valiant men of Atithigva, Kutsa, and Ayu,-bring to him the Soma.



    What it seems to me is that the Angirases qua Dirghatamas are showing one area of development, i. e. Arjika, while here it is more like Angirases qua Kanva who are headed towards Gujarat and south India.

    This is navigable because there is no inkling Kanva had anything to do with before Book Six or any legendary influences or symbolical twins. He is a person, probably southern, who joined Ghora Angiras, who is half of the Atharva Veda. This is similar to Bharadvaja, disciple of an Angiras, and probably also in the Divodasa era. Kanva Family is roughly equivalent to the "Books" system, as it begins "within" the events and then actually continues through the end. Other old Families have only a small number of followers, or tumultuous name changes that make it unclear.

    Trying to assess the relative chronology of Kanva markers and influences, we arrive at the following scale:



    Three Kings (Atithigva Indrota, Rksa, Asvamedha)--> Priyamedha Angiras (Kanva and Priyamedha precede Parucchepa Daivodasi)

    Three Kings (Atithigva, Kutsa, Ayu) --> Savya Angiras, Susravas

    River Hymn --> Sindhuksit Praiyamedha

    Sudas --> Praskanva (Praskanva is preceded by Rishi Priyamedha and his descendants); Pragatha is aware of Arjika

    Varsagiras (particulary because they are *not* sons of Sudas or Bharatas)

    Asanga Prayoga --> Medhatithi and Medhyatithi, Trisoka, Kaksivan, Yadus and Purus, Arbuda and Sindhudvipa

    Varu --> Sasakarna Kanva, Visvamanas Vaiyasva, Gomati River (?)

    Trasadasyu --> Sobhari, Sadhvamsa, Atri and Syavasva, Rathaviti, Asvamedha Bharata, Vamadeva




    For someone influential to a late Kanva, nothing is known of Varu. He is overlooked in VIII.23:

    varo suṣāmṇe


    even though this is the same as his name in VIII.26:


    varo suṣāmṇe


    which is extended further in VIII.25:


    the son of Suṣāman, the descendant of Ukṣan


    We don't really know who they are, we don't know what happened to Trasadasyu's India, other than it appears his grandson died suddenly in office.

    It looks doubly weird compared to the confusion over "Bhargava" and the "installation" of Saunaka.


    Brahmanas are an attempt to package a physical ritual institution, whereas Upanishad is symbolic and apparently begins with the end of Yajur Veda, which is rendered purely symbolic by Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. Neither one seems to have the "real history" of the Vedas. In some cases this may just be easy mistakes. But we think this is the mentality backing the interpretation of "caste" out of the material as well.


    Sayana's reaction to Syavasva's "river" is:


    Gomatīḥ = having water, rivers, being in the plural; it may be a river which rises in the first range of the Himālayas, or, it may be the river rising in Kulu, a feeder of the Beyaḥ or Vyāsa


    That potentially has to do with Manali.

    It is not specific, it may be more than one, it may be "rivers of Usas". She is Gomati and Asvavati, just like the Aswins, abundant in cattle and horses. If the verse does not say "on the banks of", then, the name could apply to people or an area.

    From the "rivers" list, it is suggestive that Susoma is given beside Arjikiya, and Pragatha tells us they are in the same region. Gomati is not just another location, it is another status, whereas some rivers have been joined:


    ...thou seekest in thy course Krumu and Gomati.


    In this hymn it may be more correct that Sindhu is a She:

    Flashing and whitely-gleaming in her mightiness, she moves along her ample volumes through the realms,
    Most active of the active, Sindhu unrestrained, like to a dappled mare, beautiful, fair to see.


    mare and beautiful woman:


    apastamāśvā na citrā vapuṣīva darśatā ||


    Vapu, the body, an apsaras.


    She is "rich" in the same way as Usas:


    vājinīvatī

    She manages to reduce "aswins" to a generic meaning:


    Sindhu hath yoked her car, light-rolling, drawn by steeds, and with that car shall she win booty in this fight.
    So have I praised its power, mighty and unrestrained, of independent glory, roaring as it runs.


    sukháṃ ráthaṃ yuyuje síndhur ašvínaṃ téna vā́jaṃ saniṣad asmínn ājáu
    mahā́n hy a |sya mahimā́ panasyáté 'dabdhasya sváyašaso virapšínaḥ


    Taking the hymn as a whole, it really begins with Apah:


    Waters in Vivasvan's place

    sadane vivasvataḥ

    they flowed by sevens through the three (worlds)


    Varuna cut the channels



    Sindhu is the important one to whom others flow as calves, and then there is a cluster recently joined, and there is a goal.

    Sindhu was called Vajinvati but not Gomati.

    Roughly speaking, Horse is more like raw power, whereas the Cow is a more subtle process, or Luminosity hidden from the Angirases.


    This hymn isn't really "Rivers" but Apah manifesting as Sindhu, which most likely accounts for the names Sindhuksit Praiyamedha (the Rishi of the hymn) and Sindhudvipa Ambarisa (important for the same subject).


    Praskanva I.46 may be inadequately translated:


    dasrā sindhumātarā


    calling them "children of the sea".


    vásu síndhūnām

    Kanvas, the drops are in the heaven; the wealth is at the waters' place:
    Where will ye manifest your form?


    Sindhu is Quickened by the Aswins for Vasistha, in the verse by Kutsa on Kutsa.

    This seems to be precipitated water, but, Praskanva almost equated her to Saranyu, mother of the Aswins.


    I have not yet figured out why Saranyu is called "Swift Cloud". Wiki of course calls her Cloud Goddess, but her name only refers to speed, not clouds.


    Stella Kramirsch takes her to mean the whole Devi.

    Saranyu general definitions cover a range of things. There is not enough in the Rg Veda to really pin it down.



    There was one cloud-ish remark from Visvamitra:


    saraṇyúbhir apó árṇā sisarṣi

    send down the waters (of the firmament) to (blend with) the waters of the earth

    thou with the Swift Ones stirrest floods and waters.



    Perhaps, most directly, "saranyus" blend Apo and Arna. There, she sounds a bit like a cloud whipping a raincloud.


    Nodhas used the term in direct parallel with Navagvas and Dasagvas to defeat Vala. It has been put forward that such adversaries are different kinds of rainless clouds.

    The sun is scorned for his ability to produce drought, and, it may not be remiss to understand his "wife" as this evaporated moisture saturating clouds, turning to rain. In that case her meaning is something more like "vapor".

    Saranyu impels Apah to Sindhu in the sense of the River Hymn. That is what Visvamitra is saying. It would be rain, except this is cosmic metaphysics into material Water, which is what the River Hymn is saying.



    The inverse is seen in a sort of veiled Trikadruka from Hiranyastupa:


    síndhubhiḥ saptámātṛbhis

    Thrice, O ye Asvins, with the Seven Mother Streams; three are the jars, the triple offering is prepared.
    Three are the worlds, and moving on above the sky ye guard the firm-set vault of heaven through days and nights.

    “Come, Aśvins, thrice with the seven mother-streams; the three rivers are ready; the triple oblation is prepared; rising above the three worlds, you defend the sun in the sky, who is established for both night and day.”

    Three rivers: three sorts of jars or pitchers used to contain and pour out Soma



    Is it not saying "with Sindhu and with the Seven Mothers"?

    As to how a stream "moves" to join other streams, it could do that if it was possibly "the stream from above".

    That has a slightly different connotation than "any physical rain" since it would be "adequate rain".


    Saranyu is in Atharva Veda XVIII.1 in an unusual way. It copies the related areas of Book Ten from Yami Vaivasvati and about Yama and Saranyu, in a way that may be for funerals, but *also* for Pitrs' Offerings.

    The rest of the chapter only "partially" copies Rg Veda, in a way apparently intended *just* for funerals. This, arguably, is a late composite reaction. In one area, it invokes who it thinks is important from Rg Veda:


    [1800315] Kanva, Kakshivan, Purumidha, Agastya, Syavasva Sobhari, and Archananas, This Visvamitra, Jamadagni, Atri, Kasyapa, Vamadeva be our helpers!

    [1800316] Vasishtha, Jamadagni, Visvamitra, Gotama, Vamadeva, Bhara dvaja! Atri hath won your favour with homage.
    Gracious to us be ye praiseworthy Fathers.



    In other words, just like Yama, these Rishis have attained the status of Pitrs or the Immortals.

    This Ancient Voice Wiki is somewhat useful, since it hyper-links multiple Vedas, but, it is only using *one* Victorian English translation to do so.

    Here, we see certain Rishis of Books One and Eight, again the same group that the Rg Veda Samhita appears to associate. It's not trying to reach back to Dadhyan or the ancient Angirases, but, speaking to the "solid" recordings, or, that which seems to flow from the time of Kanva forwards. Seems oblivious to a dispute between Visvamitra and Vasistha, and more aware that Atri is on the receiving end of a dispensation.


    The usefulness of the format is its rapid focus. Since we understand that certain "minor" Rishis mixed with the famous ones above, are, in fact, not "minor", but "pivotal", what else may explain this? And you can tell that there is not another verse with Sobhari. Syavasva is re-iterated one time, on a page that includes XX-XXIX. The first of these is for Divine Sight, wherein a Plant gives the ability to see Kimidins, Pisacas, and Yatudhanas, along with all the heavens and worlds, all Sudras and Aryas, the vision itself just has one attribution:


    Thou art the sight of Kasyapa and of the hound who hath four eyes.


    Syavasva comes up again in a next-generation of the Pitrs hymn, which has extended to Babhru. This looks very much like adding a few members to the previous core:


    [0402901] You twain, O Mitra, Varuna, I honour, Lawstrengtheners, wise, who drive away oppressors.
    Ye who protect the truthful in his battles, deliver us, ye twain, from grief and trouble. [p. a138]

    [0402902] Ye the wise Gods who drive away oppressors, ye who protect the truthful in his battles, Who come, men s guards, to juice pressed forth by Babhru, deliver us, ye twain, from grief and trouble.

    [0402903] Mitra and Varuna who help Agasti, Atri, and Angiras, and Jamadagni, Ye who help Kasyapa, who help Vasishtha, deliver us, ye twain, from grief and trouble.

    [0402904] Mitra and Varuna, who help Syavasva, Atri, and Purumilha, and Vadhryasva, Ye who help Vimada and Saptavadhri, deliver us, ye twain, from grief and trouble.

    [0402905] Ye, Varuna, Mitra, who give aid to Kutsa, Gavishthira, Bharadvaja, Visvamitra, Who help Kakshivan and give aid to Kanva, deliver us, ye twain, from grief and trouble.

    [0402906] Ye, Mitra, Varuna, who help Trisoka, Medhatithi, and Usana son of Kavi, Ye, Gotama s and Mudgala s protectors, deliver us, ye twain, from grief and trouble.

    [0402907] Whose straight reined car that keeps the track of goodness assails and ruins him who walks perversely I, suppliant, praise with constant invocation Mitra and Varuna.

    Save us from affliction.




    This is triply-reinforcing. Although found in Book Five, Babhru is not an Atreya, but a follower of Night:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): babhru rātreyaḥ

    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): indra ṛṇañcayaśca


    His main point is wealth from the group only mentioned at the beginning of Book Eight:


    “The (gloom-) investing night has dispersed with the dawn (upon the appearance of) Ṛṇañcaya, the rājā of the ruśamās; Babhru being summoned, going like a fleet courser, has received the four thousand (cattle).



    As for Indra:


    he has subjugated all the waters, the brides of the slave

    viśvā apo ajayad dāsapatnīḥ ||


    Babhru says of himself:


    Verily you have made me, Indra, your associate when grinding the head of the slave Namuci like a sounding and rolling cloud


    “The Ruśamās giving me four thousand cows, Agni, have done well; we have accepted the wealth, the donation of the leader of leaders rṇañcaya.”


    Sayana says:


    Ruśamās are a people of a country of the same name, the principality of ṛnañcaya


    The Rg Veda just says at the time of Medhyatithi, that Rusama was already famous.

    In most older hymns, "babhru" is just a color, of Soma, or Rudra, although is also used by Vasistha as Varuna's Horse:


    “Propitiating Dadhikrāvan, I glorify Agni, Uṣas, the sun, the earth, the great brown horse of Varuṇa,who is mindful of his adorers; may they put far away from us iniquities.”


    The adversary Namuci is probably redacted into VI.20, i. e. because this is where Trasadasyu has been attached.


    Otherwise, we find that Babhru is the *only* Rishi to speak of Namuci in the present tense. The defeat of Namuci is carried as a memory, approximately along with Pipru and Rjisvan, beginning perhaps in Vasistha VII.19, where Indra turns around and grants to Sudas:


    bhojanāni rātahavyāya dāśuṣe sudāse |


    Another older reference is Savya I.53 shortly before Susravas.


    The reverence is only followed by certain later composers:


    Grtsamada II.14

    Sukirti Kaksivatah X.131

    Gauriviti X.73


    Namuci is also just a memory in VIII.3-4, however Babhru is somewhat exalted in Sobhari VIII.22 on the Aswins:


    you have defended Paktha, Adhrigu, and Babhru


    VIII.14 adds the detail that Indra decapitated Namuci with foam, Phenena.

    The other hymns describe it as a magic duel of Mayavins.


    Once again, although something very tangible has been depicted under the subject of "debt", we find this "country"--or whatever it was--utterly vanished from the language. It does not repeat in the Puranas, or continue to be used as a word. The deficiency has been found as early as Coomaraswamy 1933 "Darker Side of Dawn":


    Rnancaya, lit. "debt-collector": either Brhaspati-Brahmanaspati, as in
    II, 23, II and 17 {rnaya, rnacid rnaya), or Indra himself (rnacid ....
    rnaya, IV, 23, 7), the toll being exacted in either case from the fiend (druh). Monier-Williams, for rnancaya, has nothing better to offer than "name of a man", and it is in this fashion that essential names have generally been
    treated by translators of the Vedas. How many needless obscurities and
    complications have been introduced into Vedic studies by a persistent neglect
    of the warning "Even as He seemeth, so is He called" (V, 44, 6) it would
    be hard to tell.


    This is theological finesse, because it means we have natural debts to deities and it is a joy to balance this, whereas there are mundane debts inflicted by mortals, which amount to pure evil and death.

    Is that not surprising? Moreover, the faded line through Kali Pragatha uses the *one* non-Sanskrit Vedic term to refer to foreign, presumably Akkadian, usurers, who would then of course be well-known in the west.

    The Danastutis and whatever else it has about material wealth, are, of course, about preventing the damage. The only advantage seen in a king or merchant becoming personally rich is in his power to give it away.


    I think we could say this is a definite argument being made, over things that happened, whereas it does not specifically argue against "caste" because that was not really invented until afterwards. This point of view was carried through Sobhari Kanva and the Atharva Veda. And then nothing.

    That amounts to a type of doctrine emanating through Babhru and Pragatha Kanva. Vedic deities break wealth out of the hands of the unjust.


    It seems to me that would fit the pattern of allegories, or divinized and magical teachings that are probably based on actual events. This is the Veda's own Speech, or practice, what it has to say that may be distinguished from a broader Sanskrit language and Indra mantras. It is mainly the Trikadrukas illustrated by:


    Indra I -- Dadhyan and Immortality

    Indra II -- Brhaspati and the Angirases, Luminous Cows


    Vishnu Trivikrama and Svar Loka

    Followed by Usas and the Aswins, and ailments of a more personal nature, such as Human Sacrifice, Down a Well, Lame, Blind, Impotent, Outcast, Nightmare, and because of Babhru and Pragatha, I think one has to add Debt. If you wanted to be avid, you could add Desert Wanderer, Storm at Sea, Leprous, Deaf, and perhaps a few other things that are less common. The first ones are more emphasized and are more in tune with universal sin and suffering.


    The rest of it seems more like a circuit. Waters move, Rudra is important for qualifying it as Medicine, Soma is a quintessence retrieved out of it, Ila, Bharati, and Sarasvati are natural bounty as uplifted by Dharma practice, Pusan and Yama are guides of Paths, and so on. Apri Hymns and Visvedevas have to be generally consistent. Those include the planet and cosmos. Most of the things you would feel and experience subjectively as an individual are contained in theological waves as above.

    The Rivers Hymn seems quite clearly about Vajinvati "trying to reach" Gomati. That would represent, at the very least, destruction of Debt.



    It is not that hard to find a rival, that is, the principle of a Good Merchant, such as in Sadaprna V.45:


    “Come, friends, let us celebrate that solemn rite which was effectual in setting open the (secret) stalls of the (stolen) cattle; by which Manu overcame Viśiśipra; by which the merchant, going to the wood (for it), obtained the water.”


    Sayana says:


    by which the merchant: vaṇij vaṅkur āpā purīṣam: an allusion to the legend of kakṣīvān


    It is not Brahmancal, but taken from Kutsa I.112:


    With those aids by which, beauteous donors, the cloud (was made to) shed its sweet (water), for the sake of the merchant

    auśijāya vaṇije dīrghaśravase


    "and Kaksivan" on the next line. You would have to force the conclusion that Dirghasravas = Kaksivan, which is at least possible.


    Alternately, V.45 doesn't look like "woods":


    Come, let us carry out, O friends, the purpose wherewith the Mother threw the Cow's stall open,
    That wherewith Manu conquered Visisipra, wherewith the wandering merchant gained heaven's water.

    Here, urged by hands, loudly hath rung the press-stone wherewith Navagvas through ten months sang praises.
    Sarama went aright and found the cattle. Angiras gave effect to all their labours.

    When at the dawning of this mighty Goddess, Angirases all sang forth with the cattle,-
    Their spring is in the loftiest place of meeting,-Sarama found the kine by Order's pathway.


    I lay upon the Floods your hymn, lightwinning, wherewith Navagvas their ten months completed.
    Through this our hymn may we have Gods to guard us: through this our hymn pass safe beyond affliction.


    or:

    “I offer to you, (gods), for the sake of water, an all-bestowing sacrifice, whereby the nine-months ministrants have completed the ten-months rite; may we, by this sacrifice, be the protected of the gods; may we, by this sacrifice, cross over the boundaries of sin.”


    for the sake of:

    apsu


    Same purpose as that of "the Merchant", Vanij, using the rite of Angirases and Navagvas, i. e. the Trikadrukas.

    Even from its origin point, I think its meaning has to be taken on multiple levels, i. e. Agricultural--external such as Rain and Streams, internal--normal or obvious, such as nourishment and health, and then internal--secret, such as the cleansing of sin and experience of bliss.

    I would guess a society performing this equals "reaching the Gomati", and removal of poverty, debt, and the like.

    To my mind, all of the imagery that relates success, like the "divinized person", the Rbhus, the Rishis becoming Pitrs, the emanation of Apah and Sindhu and a hypostatic "divine marriage", all of that as a Path is far more important than the simple fact of "Creation", even if from a deva mind and another world.

    This is a late Atreya hymn, doing a pretty decent job about what must have already been historical relics in its time.



    (cont.)

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    --continued--the Kanvas contrasted to traditional Manu beliefs



    We left off from a hymn by Sadaprna Atreya wherein Manu defeats "Visisipra", who is unique or unknown, although Sipra is an ordinary enough term. This seems to have happened near the source of the Navagvas' successful rite, and by "the Merchant", easily enough understood as Kaksivan, if Kutsa's reference is relevant. At least it is a much more apt suggestion than some translators of Yajur Veda apparently not knowing who Kaksivan is.


    If there was a prior thread that Sadaprna may have been more than a "grandson" descended from, the same view appears to be found by asking the Rg Veda the right questions respectfully by K Krishnan:


    Quote Dīrghatamas Māmateya, (matronymic) also known as Dīrghatamas Aucathya (patronymic) is a Śatarcin and a very prominent sage of First Maṇḍala of Rigveda. He is also considered to be the blind sage Māmateya referenced by himself and also Vāmadeva Gautama in the Fourth Maṇḍala.

    He describes himself as the son of Mamatā and Ucathya. His name means “Long in darkness”, and is thought to be named so because he was born blind. Though (presumably) physically blind, Dīrghatamas was endowed with sharp insight, and his verses remain some of the most poetically enigmatic ones in Rigveda. Not just himself, but his whole family (his descendants Kakṣīvant, Sukīrti, Śabara, Ghoṣā, Suhastya) is sort of well established in Rigveda and they have a very enigmatic style of expression. Much enigmatic, that even their personal details they mention could be their “poetic expressions”.

    He probably married from a people, or himself belonged to a people known as Uśij, who are often considered exotic by later Indian and Avestan standards. Considering the Dīrghatamas is the only one to mention and describe the ritual of Aśvamedha in the whole Rigveda, there is some sort of exotic element that he blended into. Much more interesting scene would be that a person Dīrghaśravas Auśija were known as Vaṇij (trader/merchant) in Rigveda, which adds to an understanding about the group which Dīrghatamas allied with. There are so many interesting and startling facts related, which cannot be disclosed as of now. I will probably cover that in a separate blog post (if Quora activates blog-space) or my Facebook later.

    Brahmanas remind us that Dīrghatamas was patronized by Bharata Dauḥṣanti (also called Bharata Dauḥṣyanta) the great king who would give the name “Bhārata” to India.

    Dīrghatamas is such a remarkable person that you can pick apart his verses by his enigmatic style. He was a very wise and insightful person, someone who could be called the pinnacle of Vedic sage tradition.

    His hymns

    Dīrghatamas is the composer seer of 24 hymns from 1.140 to 1.164, which is a sufficiently large number for sages of Rigveda. Ten of his hymns are for Agni who is established and born, showing the priestly relationship of him with the Deva. Three are to Mitrāvaruṇā, Three to Indra-Viṣṇu, two to Aśvins, two to Dyāvāpṛthivī, one for Ṛbhus, one for the Aśva of Aśvamedha, one for the cosmic Aśva equated with the Aśva of Aśvamedha and finally, one for Viśvedevas which is the longest and the most enigmatic hymn of Rigveda. (RV 1.164)


    So they say, but again Rg Vedic Bharata can hardly be reduced to an individual person, but, more of a symbolic Manu-like ignition of Agni into what *was* a royal dynasty, *but* it seems to vanish after Sudas. Vamadeva is not renewing a Bharata patronage, because Somaka and Sahadeva are not Bharatas, they are Varsagiras.

    As far as we know, "Usij" refers to a foreign, perhaps Orissan, family, much as "Kanva" most likely does, eventually including Tamils. This would most likely be the context for "Ausija" as a "trader".

    The review perhaps understated Dirghatamas, since he is Rishi of the "Angiras Apri Hymn" and that the expression "Angiras" probably has everything to do with equivalency of Arya and Ikshvaku Rishis.


    We would find this response somewhat less correct:


    Quote If we trace these generations back to the oldest one, we find the names angirA, bhRgu, atharva and trita Aptya. However, we do not find any hymns in the present Rig Veda attributed to either angirA, bhRgu (except just 1 single Soma hymn) or atharva. There are fewer than 10 hymns attributed to trita Aptya. The earliest hymns in the Rig Veda already call these 4 rishis as very ancient ancestors. These 4 rishis are almost gods, they are semi-divine personalities that are worshiped along with the gods. Of the four, the descendants or lineages of angirA and bhRgu are still prevalent today as Angirasa and bhArgava.

    Trita Aptya is a Rishi, named for the prior deity. His career, however, is phenomenally significant for Waters as copied into Book One. And Vedic Bhargava actually brings in our dispute with perhaps-Akkadian Bekanata and is not identical to "Bhrgu". It is legitimate, in fact recommended to revere those "ancestors" who really are Pitrs, lucid masters of heaven. This basic principle is not any different than modern Buddhism; the main difference would be is that sometimes they "leave", that is, seek rebirth. The main exception would be that, if I am given Yama as a deity, it means he never left.

    Kaksivan bears a resemblance to someone who is earlier than, and not really a part of Book Five.




    Babhru is actually quite severe:


    Let him who knows not learn, who knows them listen: hither rides Maghavan with all his army.


    He means something that he found out about:


    I have beheld his strong and secret dwelling, longing have sought the Founder's habitation.
    I asked of others, and they said in answer, May we, awakened men, attain to Indra.


    Interestingly, he appears to use Milk as the opposite of the "slavers":


    Thou, Maghavan, from the first didst scatter foemen, speeding, while joying in the milk, the Giver.
    There, seeking man's prosperity, thou torest away the head of Namuci the Dasa.


    It perhaps means "foam" as in "whipped cream".

    Svar Loka:


    Yea, and the rolling stone that is in heaven both worlds, as on a car, brought to the Maruts.


    And Ratri, his namesake:


    Night, well-nigh ended, at Rnancaya's coming, King of the Rusamas, was changed to morning.


    aucchat sā rātrī paritakmyā yām̐ ṛṇaṃcaye rājani ruśamānām | atyo na vājī raghur ajyamāno babhruś catvāry asanat sahasrā ||


    “The (gloom-) investing night has dispersed with the dawn (upon the appearance of) Ṛṇañcaya, the rājā of the ruśamās; Babhru being summoned, going like a fleet courser, has received the four thousand (cattle).”


    It is one of the rare examples that says "king of" something.

    Medhyatithi on Svar Loka:


    “Give to this our (worshipper) engaged in celebrating your sacred rites, Indra, (the wealth) whereby you have protected the son of Puru, grant to the man (aspiring) to heaven (the wealth wherewith) you have preserved, O Indra, Ruśama, Śyāvaka and Kṛpa.”


    He appears to be remembering "Rusama" as if derived from Babhru.



    We found that Kaksivan almost certainly uses "Syava" as one of the "triple ailments" of Kanva, where it is commented in a way that is the opposite of Ghosha:


    Śyāva, a ṛṣi, had the black leprosy, but was cured of it by the Aśvins, and consequently married.


    "Syava" is again the name of the son of Vadhrimati.


    However these following may in fact be identical in the words of Sobhari:


    “The magnificent lord, the protector of the virtuous, Trasadasyu, the son of Purukutsa, has given me five hundred brides.”

    “The affluent Śyāva, the lord of kine, has given to me upon the banks of Suvastu a present of seventythree (cows).


    The "half Puru" Trasadasyu was dark? It could be.

    Sobhari has gotten something resembling what is said:


    vadhūnām

    Vadhu is easily recognizable as "brides", or women of marital availability or girls reaching maturity.


    In Kaksivan's verse, Syava is given a "youth" and Kanva is given something far more arcane:


    yuvaṃ śyāvāya ruśatīm adattam mahaḥ kṣoṇasyāśvinā kaṇvāya |


    "Rusati" would be the "brilliance" of Kavasa Ailusa:


    “(The expounders of the Vedas) spoke to Kaṇva, the son of Nṛṣad, and he the dark-tinted, having food, acquired wealth; (Agni) sprinkled (the milk of the brilliant udder for the dark (complexioned sage); no other divinity so favours the sacrifice for him].”

    uta kaṇvaṃ nṛṣadaḥ putram āhur uta śyāvo dhanam ādatta vājī | pra kṛṣṇāya ruśad apinvatodhar ṛtam atra nakir asmā apīpet ||


    and the "bright" of Indra Vaikuntha:


    “I have kept up in them that which no deity, not even Tvaṣṭā, has maintained, bright, desirable,(contained) in the udders of the cows; in the rivers (I uphold) the water up to the (source of the) water, the delightful Soma and the milk and curds.”


    A young woman is given to the "dark one", and brilliance--the contents of magic cows' udders--is given to "blind" Kanva.


    It has a generic meaning of "bright", such as this neglected phrase from Syavasva:


    ruśat pippalam maruto


    or Kutsa I.113:


    ruśadvatsā ruśatī śvetyāgād āraig


    The white-shining dawn, the parent of the sun, has arrived...



    So, this may relate to rusa or rusama as used in personal names.

    As the "complement", syava asva is the most common use of "dark-complexioned, brown". Above, it seems to be an alternym for Kanva, Ghosa's son, and Trasadasyu.




    We also notice the disappearance of Pajra from the language, which has no clear etymology or meaning.

    It was used in a non-personal, generic sense by Dirghatamas, Pragatha, and Bharadvaja, and later, just "leaves". Not found after the Rg Veda.


    The "Merchant" uses it self-reflexively in the Aswins' Kaksivan I.116:


    to Kakṣīvat, of the race of Pajra, various knowledge

    pajriyāya kakṣīvate aradatam puraṃdhim


    associating "men or people" to Nahusas:


    the assembly conferring upon the Pajras abundant food, has been my benefactor

    Right after invoking Sindhu, he says Mitra and Varuna are these benefactors to the Pajras--for numerous cattle and:


    pṛkṣayāmeṣu pajre


    possibly:


    ...a hundred cows to the Prksayamas and the Pajra...


    Sayana tells us that Pajras are "Angirases" and leaves it hanging in a rather vague way. He revises the stance in Vasu Bharadvaja IX.82:


    (Soma), offspring of Pajra


    Pajra: i.e., the earth; Soma is its offspring, because it is produced in the ground


    Angirases means "coals", whereas "pajra" is more like "stability", such as the Aswins' chariot parked in the ocean when rescuing Tugra. The offspring of Pajra is Soma before it is people, so, those people are perhaps more accurately Soma-pressers than Angirases.


    However it seems to have a specific application to himself in Vatsa Kanva VIII.6:


    “I have accepted from Tirindira, the son of Paraśu, hundreds and thousands of the treasures of meṇ”


    these "men" being:

    yādvānām

    And presents of the Yadavas...


    No telling whether to connect "Parasu" to "Rama", but, there is such a person. This must have helped:


    “(These princes) have given to the chanter Pajra three hundred horses, ten thousand cattle.”

    pajrāya sāmne: to sāman, the reciter of praises


    Again, we have to say that "Saman" is a new art form, that, for example, if "rik" was still similar to mantras composed by anyone, Saman is a musical school specific to the Vedic Rishis. This is shortly after him using "priyamedhas" as "praisers" or perhaps rik chanters. Vatsa either "is" Pajra, or "a" Pajra. These few verses at the end of a long Indra hymn are recorded as:


    tirindirasya pāraśavyasya dānastutiḥ


    which is readily identifiable:


    he has given camels laden with four (loads of gold), and Yādva people


    Vatsa is probably somewhat "late" because he is mentioned by Sasakarna, so he is probably not the, original, "Pajra", but, the family or group probably has more to do with Soma and Sama Veda, which would be sub- or Angiras followers.

    The "camel" is already known to Paruchhepa Daivodasi as an analogy for Pusan. I see no reason there would not be words for things that may appear "foreign" since physical evidence of trade is among the oldest things to be found. There is no real reason the original Rishis would have to be ignorant of camels, Afghan sheep, etc., although there is a difference in using it as an image compared to receiving it as a donation.


    Vatsa is strongly traditional, refers to Kanva as "ancient", but the long hymn does not include many people or events. He demands Indra come to the Kanvas in preference from:


    Yatis and Bhrgus

    yátayas tvā bhṛ́gavo


    And, Indra, grant us all that wealth of fleet steeds which shone bright of old
    Among the tribes of Nahusas.


    He mentions "Vrtra" and a few standard ideas. After he makes a reference to Etasa:


    Rejoice, O Indra, in the light, rejoice in Saryandyan, be Glad in the sacrificer's hymn.


    mandasvā su svarṇara utendra śaryaṇāvati | matsvā vivasvato matī ||


    “Rejoice, Indra, at the heaven-guiding sacrifice as Śaryaṇāvat; be exhilarated by the praise of the worshipper.”



    So, it sounds like a conveyance direct from the original Navagvas' rite. Once again, "vivasvata" appears neglected.

    “The Kaṇvas augment by praise this ancient rite intended (to obtain) an abundance of sweet water.”


    It is consistent, if Waters and Soma are distributed throughout nature, the rite is an additional transform with Honey or Nectar into Amrita. We don't think you gain Immortality *just* by drinking from a mountain spring.

    Last verse before the Danastuti:



    Thy steeds, by Priyamedhas praised, shall bring thee, God whom all invoke


    So, there is at least the loose association of Priyamedhas to Vivasvata and the Saryanavat rite.

    It does sound like perhaps the Bhrgus were part of the Yadus.

    "Tirindira" and "Parsav" appear inscrutable; the assistant to Praskanva has a name derived from Parsad, an assembly.

    Names related to "axe" can be in the form Parsav or Parasav, which is later or more common, also inferring iron and illegitimate children.


    Parasu and Soma are similes, the same power that helps us, turns against/harms foes.


    Vasistha uses the expression Parasara for "destroyer", apparently before his grandson was born.

    Sayana thinks "parasara" also applies to his son Sakti. Or, the verse may be naming all three generations. Otherwise, there are no other Rishis speaking of either Sakti or Parasara, only their own hymns.


    The Rishi's name is really:

    parā-śara


    using:

    Śara (an arrow; an injury)


    which strongly resembles the pronunciation and meaning of "axe":


    Paraśu

    E. para another, śu to injure


    as distinguished from similar spellings:


    Parāsu

    Dead, expired. E. para away, remote, asu vital breath.


    And of course the claim is that Parasara is the father of Vyasa, who compiled the Vedas. This view is almost strictly anti-Vedic:


    Vyasa appears for the first time as the author of, and an important character in the Mahābhārata. He was the son of Satyavati, daughter of a ferryman or fisherman, and the wandering sage Parashara. He was born on an island in the river Yamuna.

    ...grandfather to the Kauravas...


    Ironically, the closest thing to "Vyasa" in the whole Rg Veda is where Vasistha says:

    vy āsa


    "scatter, drive away"

    It's not a person; it may, instead, possibly mean that Parasara was able to re-name the Arjika or Vipasa River as "Vyasa"--all we can be sure of is that those names are equivalent, and that the latter was in place by the time the Greeks showed up.

    The Kurus or Kauravas are generally the "evil" side in Mahabharata, although they are the antecedents of both (Dhrtarastra and the Pandavas). But we have just found they were a donor to Medhyatithi:


    pākasthāmnaḥ kaurayāṇasya

    the son of Kurayāṇa


    And so we have to be finicky about the spelling. That doesn't quite say "Kaurava". What it says is:


    Kura (कुर) [=Kuru?] refers to a country belonging to “Madhyadeśa (central division)”

    Kūra (कूर).—Food, boiled rice


    compared to the more familiar spelling:


    1) Kuru (कुरु) [=Kura?] (Cf. Kaurava, Kurukṣetra) refers to a country identified with Delhi, belonging to “Madhyadeśa (central division)”

    Boiled rice.


    So, those are indistinguishable, Kurayana is more or less equivalent to Kaurava.

    Sayana says that Gotama:


    was the purohita of the kuru and sṛñjaya princes


    We find the general meaning "praise by the Kurus" as Kurusravana by Kavasa Ailusa, and then again as the name of the very individual who dies in office. This of course is a descendant of Trasadasyu, and where knowledge of Vedic continuity seems to break.

    The Puranic claim is that:


    Kuru was the son of Samvarana


    Admittedly, it is still somewhat of a Vedic riddle to try to comb through "Samvarana Prajapatya" compared to "Manu Samvarana", who is called by Srustigu Kanva:

    Manu, the descendant of Saṃvaraṇa


    I suppose that is the naming style, i. e. Manu Vaivasvata is manu, son of vivasvata.

    We can figure him out, mostly, from the Rg Veda Samhita. May be the seed-pattern of everything. Manu Samvarana is a bit more limited and intricate, and there is a third, perhaps immaterial branch, of CakSu MAnava, Manu Apsava. If there were directly-named followers of any of these Manus, it would be:


    NahuSa MAnava

    NAbhAnediSTha MAnava

    SAryAta MAnava



    Something is missing if we follow the line of IX.101 from Syavasva's son. He appears to personate ancient people, but misses Samvarana and does not quite specify the progenitor:


    YayAtI NAhuSa, NahuSa MAnava, Manu SamvaraNa, PrajApati


    This is less robust than any other examples.

    "Yayati" is used as an ancient name along with Manu and Angiras in Hiranyastupa I.17, but it has no connections, not even a surname.

    It is used in its plain and generic meaning, who/which, by Nabhaka Kanva.

    That two of the names might be connected is as said by Gaya Plata:


    “May the gods who, (coming) from afar proclaim their affinity (with men), and beloved by men, (support) the generations of (Manu, the son of) Vivasvat; may they who are seated on the sacred grass of Yayāti, the son of Nahuṣa, speak favourably unto us.”

    And we are returned to Sayana's comment perhaps related to Blind and Lame:


    Turvaśas and Yadu, when denied inauguration


    allusion is to their exclusion from the succession in favour of the young son Puru by their father Yayāti


    That scene may be somewhat accurate, although, as we see, nowhere in Rg Veda does it specify any descendants of Yayati. Because all mortal human beings are "nahusas", nothing special is said about his ancestry or position. It may have been a person's name in the early days, but, I would say, far from influential compared to Rjisvan and many others that can be traced.

    Any Puranic narrative placed over those few sparse points is completely ad hoc.

    You can't really claim any special knowledge from Andhigu Syavasvi if you have no idea what Syavasva did. Syavasva is pivotal to the whole Rg Veda, and then there is one small non-Family hymn where his son appears to have included a few historical ideas. Even this does not seem to come from the corresponding Samvarana Prajapatya, or, the prior Prajapati Vaisvamitra/Vacya/Paramesthin. This whole line is descent from Visvamitra, such a "manu" would effectively be his great-grandson. At closest, that would go, Visvamitra, Prajapati, Samvarana, Manu; and so then if we place "Nahusa Manava", next, he would not appear particularly early, and so neither would a following Yayati. Whereas Gaya Plata's verse sounds like an occult way of saying mortals who follow the Path. And it is framed in such a way that this is what the Veda appears to be "saying" about Manu.


    Elsewhere, there is not even an attempt to attribute anything to Manu Samvarana, nor is there any obvious descent from him.

    As for Samvarana Prajapatya, Sayana comments Samvarana as "the son of Rksa" who hid along the Sindhu until rescued by Vasistha.

    Samvarana says nothing of this; that his name probably means "covering" is similar to where he says:


    Soma juice that yields (a defensive) covering in combat.


    and then he makes the most valuable historical point---Trasadasyu Paurukutsa Gairiksita.

    He has other donors:

    Vidatha, the son of Marutaśva

    dhvanya, the son of Lakṣmaṇa


    Indra fights:


    mṛgāya


    and one more donor:

    Śatri, the son of Agniveśa


    Nothing related to any permutation of "Kuru" is found there. He lived at the time of Trasadasyu. It would not seem possible for him to be active at the time of Sudas. He should be the "grandson" of Visvamitra, which helps us roughly estimate there is probably a missing generation between Sudas and Trasadasyu. Maybe twenty to forty years of power vacuum and petty kings. Probably not several lost centuries. An intermediary might be, for example, Prajapati Vaisvamitra. That is not terribly hard to figure out. These descendants would closely parallel Sakti Vasistha, and then Parasara and Gauriviti Saktya.

    That is profound enough to be worth its own link highlight.

    If a "Manu" is critical to one's version of history:


    Samvarana Prajapatya


    clearly *adds* a royal house to Trasadasyu--we have shown that "Gairiksita" refers to Vishnu Trivikrama, which *is* a specific meditation within the Vedic system, although perhaps semi-concealed by only being expressed in certain areas.

    The inference is that this is Ikshvaku.

    I would say that Samvarana or "descendants of Visvamitra" are important for this reason, that is, to highlight what we might call House of Vishnu as magnified by the most important monarch in Rg Veda.


    For "Kuru", there is a variant Ikshvaku explanation:


    It is stated that King Mandhātā, a Cakkavattī king of Jambudīpa, conquered Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, and Uttarākuru besides the devalokas. While returning from Uttarākuru a large number of the inhabitants of that country followed Mandhātā to Jambudīpa, and the place in Jambudīpa where they settled became known as Kururaṭṭham including provinces, villages, towns, etc. This explains the word ‘Kurusu’ occurring in Pāli Buddhist literature.


    In reference to the king just mentioned, there is a remark:


    In the Dāśarājña battle Paktha fought against Sudās on the side of Trasadasyu. (Maṇḍala 7, Ṛgveda).


    which is...mangled, although there is something similar. It is not that easy to tell what happened after river waters were lowered for Sudas:


    Eager for spoil was Turvasa Purodas, fain to win wealth, like fishes urged by hunger.
    The Bhrgus and the Druhyus quickly listened: friend rescued friend mid the two distant peoples.

    Together came the Pakthas, the Bhalanas, the Alinas, the Sivas, the Visanins.
    Yet to the Trtsus came the Arya's Comrade, through love of spoil and heroes' war, to lead them.


    So, it sounds more like the Pakthas are persuaded to join Sudas.


    And if VIII.49 may be redacted, Sobhari refers to Paktha as "helped by the Aswins".

    Paktha must have been closely contemporaneous to Trasadasyu. We don't know if he may have to do with the "Paks" of Pakistan--what is much more telling is that Kuru is really about "rice", which is Gangetic. The implication would be about people in Pak or other northern regions who adapted to rice culture. There is almost nothing "more Vedic" than rice.

    I don't know *why* it is, I only know *that* it is. If Egypt requires Afghan Lapis Lazuli to write her mythology, India requires Chinese rice to perform Vedic rites.

    The Vedas definitely do not have Yayati as "father of Five Tribes", and the Vedic Kurus are possibly Paks, but definitely donors to the Kanvas in the middle period.

    The only Vedic Kuruksetra is Sayana's comments assigning Arjikya/Saryanavat to the north-west of there.

    It's very backwards, since the first are Vedic entities that define the very practice itself, and the other is a later battlefield, i. e. that which the Vedic traditions cleared out and replaced with a stable, prosperous society in that area, hoping to prevent.


    This hits home. There are three Manus credited in the Anukramani--one is Kasyapa or Marica, another a descendant of Visvamitra, and one who may be "conversational" or pure legend.

    The real difficulty is that another has been revealed in the Samhita. In this case, the Puranas assign Savarni to the future, thousands of years, at the end of Kali Yuga. Sayana thinks he may even be a metaphor for "gold". Neither one of them has studied these hymns. The last section from Nabhanedistha Manava is:


    sāvarṇerdānastutiḥ


    And, chipping in with two Dasas are who we have just scrutinized:


    yadus turvaś ca māmahe ||


    What's broken here? Everything.

    Savarni already happened long ago.

    Sayana makes it far worse. These are difficult hymns. Especially in the case of determining whether something like "cyamana" is a personal name. The first problem is he insists "Rudra" is a personal name. This is considered a Visvedeva hymn, so, it has no identities per verse. And so he attaches a legend which is not evident here. But, this is a "powerful" hymn, and top level at that. The part of the legend that matches the Samhita is that Nabhanedistha greatly assists the Angirases/Navagvas, who are tired and confused about how to finish their rite.

    It has none of the details that Sayana sticks to it.

    When we go to the beginning of X.61, we find someone else we just encountered in the present tense:


    ...for Paktha, rescued his parents, and assailed [helped: parsat] the seven Hotras...


    The translations are flimsy and disagreeable and one of them is mis-aligned. The first "Rudra" phrase and its interpretations are:


    ráudraṃ gūrtávacā --prayer to Aswins

    fierce-voiced -- praise of Rudra


    The second is redundant. If we take "raudra" as "fierce"--which is fine--we are relegated to "fierce praise of the Aswins", which is in keeping with the subject. There is no reason to attach a Rudra legend with things that do not occur here.

    A reasonable translation might be:


    THE welcome speaker in the storm of battle uttered with might this prayer to win the Asvins,
    When the most liberal God, for Paktha, rescued his parents, and perfected the seven Hotras.


    Digressive interpretations:


    tū́rvayāṇo gūrtávacastamaḥ

    Most sweet-voiced Turvayana

    most fierce in speech


    People?

    dábhyāya vanváñ cyávānaḥ


    *Some* of the parenthetical suggestions are valid, because the Aswins are specifically named:


    divó nápātāšvinā


    After invoking the Aswins "today", the hymn shifts to past tense.

    Sayana's exact words:

    seem to refer to the begetting of Rudra by Prajāpati


    No.

    Nabhanedistha brings in a unique word:


    Vīrakarma (वीरकर्म):—[=vīra-karma] [from vīra > vīr] n. ‘performing virile acts’, the membrum virile

    vīrakarmam < vīrakarma
    [noun], nominative, singular, neuter

    “penis.”


    The couple does not even have names--however, they occupy a slice of time *before* the Deva Creation as told by Brhaspati:


    “When the deed was done in mid-heaven in the proximity of the father working his will, and the daughter coming together, they let the seed fall slightly; it was poured upon the high place of sacrifice.” (yónau)


    Because it is after this that a divine figure is born:


    svādhyo 'janayan brahma devā vāstoṣ patiṃ


    Vastospati is a Vasistha deity, written along with:

    sārameya


    which is quite rare, possibly only otherwise used by Yama.

    "Vastospati":


    the genitive of vāstu (“house”), and pati (“lord”)


    is quite close in meaning to Vasistha, "provider of dwellings".

    Nabhanedistha split it in two:

    vā́stoṣ pátiṃ


    which is more difficult to trace, but, primarily, or so far, we find this shared among two Rishis only.

    Both of them have extended narratives attached to them that is not what the Rg Veda says.

    After a few verses of divine cosmic formation, this material is slung in combat:

    phenam


    ignored:

    parāvṛṅ < parāvṛj


    The "Daughter" is crucial to the Navagvas:


    ...were engaged in the nine months;' ceremonial, reciting the praise suited to the rite, quickly attained the friendship of the maiden

    makṣū kanāyāḥ sakhyaṃ



    a form of donated wealth:


    rekṇa āyajanta sabardughāyāḥ


    Look what happens. The previous "event" is repeated, however this time Kanva is involved:


    When (the worshippers) find (the stalls deserted) by the cattle

    When afterwards they woke-and missed the cattle, the speaker thus in joyful mood addressed them...

    Then the attendant (rays of light [?]) (pariṣadvāno) quickly gathered round him, and (the asuras [?]) dwelling in many regions sought to destroy the son of Nṛṣad, but the irresistible (anarvā) found the well-knit mail (hidden treasure) of Śuṣṇa, whose offspring was numerous, which was hidden in the cave.


    He injects a name the Kanvas use:


    Whether Bharga is the name of that radiance, on the triple seat of which those who are gods are seated, as if in heaven, or whether it be Agni, or Jātavedas...


    and we may hit "adjective" again:


    Indra, let those two brilliant sons of Rudra, the Nāsatyās

    raudrāv arcimantā nāsatyāv indra gūrtaye

    Indra, bring, that I may laud and serve them, those Two resplendent glorious Nasatyas


    I don't think anything else remotely suggests Rudra is their father, whereas we *do* have a fairly extensive Vedic background of their birth, quite a bit closer to what is kept in the Puranas. Presuming his ignorance on this is tantamount to nihilism. Nowhere else in these hymns does anything bring in the definite name "Rudra".



    A certain name is found this way:


    This royal (Soma [?]), this glorified creator:


    he made Kakṣīvat tremble



    These are entities we are not familiar with:


    kinsman of the two

    dvibandhur vaitaraṇo


    the ambrosia-yielding cow

    sabardhuṃ dhenum


    Vaitarana, doubly kinsman, sacrificer, shall milk the cow who ne' er hath calved, Sabardhu

    For the Rishi:


    So mid these tribes he rests, the friendly envoy, borne on two paths...


    Then there may be an instance of name-and-adjective:


    the impetuous (Yama [?]) now approaches

    saraṇyuḥ kārave jaraṇyuḥ


    And the Rishi wishes to acquire Varuna's swift horse:

    saraṇyur asya sūnur aśvo


    He appropriately refers to Indra II:


    ...by means of your sacrifice when the year was ended, demolished Vala...


    The only Dasagva we have been able to name is Adhrigu. However there is no indication of him struggling. In the current circumstances:


    ...the chief Aṅgirasa, the celebrator of the nine-month rite, the celebrator of the ten-month rite, accompanied by the gods bestows (upon me wealth)


    navagvo nu daśagvo aṅgirastamo sacā deveṣu maṃhate ||


    Finally, the phrase "may this Manu be born", is perhaps more adequately:


    May this man's sons be multiplied; like springing corn may Manu grow


    His office is not King or even Prince:


    “May the donor of a thousand (cows), the head of the district, the Manu, never suffer wrong, may his liberality go spreading (in glory) with the sun; may the gods prolong the life of Sāvarṇi (from whom) unwearied(in his service) we enjoy abundant food.”


    the hamlet's chief


    Nabhanedhistha has dealt with kings and other nobles, other Vedic Rishis up to their chief who he is more powerful than, and in the end he is almost certainly talking to his father.

    The individuals he clearly records are Paktha, Kanva, and Kaksivan. Because Yadu and Turvasa may be "tribes", these are not required to be individuals. "Turvayana" could be an adjective, but, the equivalent name or tribe is already present. "Cyamana" may be an adjective, but is also a very old character. Those are perhaps debatable, but, I get the sense that "raudra" is *not* a deity of this hymn, or, one that engages in an odd reciprocal offering with Nabhednedhistha. That idea is forced, is a contrivance.


    The following hymn from Gaya Plata launches right in to Manu Vaivasvata and Yayati. In that sense, Book Ten is focusing these two particular Manus, as if particularly important. "Manu" as one name or title by itself remains relegated to someone, perhaps Dadhyan, or else another tucked into the very beginning. We found that "Mandhata" is basically the same meaning, "the thinker".

    The Brahmanas just told us that Saryata Manava was consecrated by Cyavana Bhargava, which could be close to possible if Saryata and Nabhanedistha are brothers.


    Cyavana is credited as an author of X.19:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): mathito yāmāyano bhṛgurvā vāruṇiścyavanoṃ vā bhārgavaḥ


    Cyavana does not appear to be a person in Book Six or Three, but Vasistha refers to him, twice. His story is repeated by Kaksivan, Ghosha, and a couple of Atreyas. It is an Aswins' healing, where his "old skin like armor" is removed, and he becomes attractive to women.

    Saryata is remembered by Kutsa and Savya Angiras as being defended in battle. His X.92 is again Visvedevas and not a bad go at it. He refers to Bhrgus and gives this unusual phrase, which is probably not a name:


    vajraṃ nṛṣadaneṣu kāravaḥ ||


    meaning the Vajra may be acquired in the dwellings of men.

    Otherwise, nothing associates those two.



    Saryata perhaps has an associate in the words of Kutsa:


    paṭharvā jaṭharasya

    which is his only instance.

    No one has asked why this appears to combine "Pathya" with "Atharvan". However, "Pathya" is both an important principle, and its own type of deity. One could say Varuna makes the paths, Indra fills them, Pusan is the guide, Yama was the first mortal to discover the path to immortality in heaven. There appears to be an individual of similar name in Bharadvaja's VI.16, which must be one of the most fundamental statements of the Vedic ethos, directed to Agni, minister of manusas.

    It looks to have something interpreted as "Bharata and the worshippers":

    bharato vājibhiḥ


    but this may be a "House" name, since the next verse specifies:


    “As you have conferred these many blessings upon Divodāsa when presenting libations, (so now grant them) to the (actual) offerer, Bharadvāja.”

    It may be meaning "Divodasa Bharata", which would correspond to the "House of Agni Bharata", as to whom:


    You have been appointed by manu

    “The sage, Atharvan, extracted you from upon the lotus-leaf, the head, the support of the universe.”

    “The ṛṣi, Dadhyañc, the son of Atharvan, kindled the slayer of Vṛtra, the destroyer of the cities of Asuras.”


    although there are no "Asuras", only "forts":

    vṛtrahaṇam puraṃdaram ||

    After those two is the individual:


    pāthyo vṛṣā


    “(The ṛṣi) Pāthya, the showerer, kindled you the destroyer of the Dasyu, the winner of spoil in battle.”



    It may be a patronymic of "Varsagira", or have to do with "Patharvan". I have not found more details on either one.

    The hymn contains a few Visvedeva references, but does not mention Usas or the Aswins.


    Vasistha carries forward the aptly-named practice, as an attribute of Usas:


    aṅgirastamā pathyā


    who awakens five paths of manusas.


    and he also attributes it to Dadhyan:


    dadhikrāḥ pathyām


    And so, that's it, the possible companion of Saryata Manava may have to do with Pathya Vrsa or Dadhyan, if those are in fact different.


    It could be possible that Saryata is a son or follower of Manu Savarni. There is not a clear reason to deny it, but, there is no reason to add anything we didn't find, which isn't anything.

    X.19 does appear to say Cyamana Bhargava is a person, but, I am not sure if the list is three people or three aliases of one person. I think everywhere else just says "Cyamana".


    "Manu Apsava" being credited with a Soma hymn, simply sounds like Waters related to Soma, followed by Caksu Manava. This has no further reflections. It kind of sounds like "Caksusa Manvantara", but that is far from the information given, which is a very standard litany.

    We are kind of left without a "father of five tribes" or "original Manu". The most authentic claim would be to use "Manu" on its own, with no personal name. This usage *does* sound compatible with the original Rishis prior to Book Six.

    The case for "Nahusa and Yayati" is very meager. "Yayati", according to Nabhaka, is by which. Seems unusual to me to use prepositions as personal names.

    It *may* be used one time as a person in I.31:


    as did Manu, and Aṅgiras, and Yayāti

    manuṣvad agne aṅgirasvad aṅgiro yayātivat


    although, even there, it possibly could be grammatically reduced to a function of the sentence, rather than a person. Even if, the person is neither connected to Nahusa or anything else other than "of old". So, we find him later listed as the apparent son of "Nahusa Manava" in the Anukramani by Andhigu, one of the *last* Rishis. However, "manava" is simply common for "of humanity", or "mortal".

    So is Nahusa.

    It is certainly used in a generic way by Kaksivan, Vasistha, Rjrasva.

    There is a kind of dividing line with Vatsa Kanva:


    “May that herd of swift horses, which formerly shone among the people of nahuṣa, (be granted), Indra,to us.”


    The only place in the Rg Veda there is anything *close* to the name "Nahusa Manava" is a verse attributed to the deity Agni Vaisvanara:


    Races of human birth pay Agni worship, men who have sprung from Nahus' line adore him.

    agníṃ víša īḷate mā́nuṣīr yā́ agním mánuṣo náhuṣo ví jātā́ḥ
    agnír gā́ndharvīm pathyāā |m ṛtásyāgnér gávyūtir ghṛtá ā́ níṣattā


    Even here, it is not taken as that kind of name.

    The meaning is very similar to this verse by Hiranyastupa:


    Thee, Agni, have the Gods made the first living One for living man, Lord of the house of Nahusa.
    Ila they made the teacher of the sons of men, what time a Son was born to the father of my race.


    tvā́m agne prathamám āyúm āyáve devā́ akṛṇvan náhuṣasya višpátim
    íḷām akṛṇvan mánuṣasya šā́sanīm pitúr yát putró mámakasya jā́yate



    There is something more tangible and ancient because it is remembered by Kaksivan:


    “You preserved Vaśa, Aśvins, (that he might obtain) in a single day a thousand acceptable gifts; showerers (of benefits), associated with Indra, you destroyed the malignant enemies of Pṛthuśravas.”


    He is talking about someone who looks like he does not belong in Book Eight, who is right before Trita Aptya. This is a fairly long hymn which includes a donation to Vasa Asvya:


    Vaśa, the son of Aśva, receives it at the dawn of this (morning) at the hands of Pṛthuśravas, the son of Kānīta.

    Kānīta: son of a maiden

    It is one word, not a redundancy, so it says "Prthusravas, son of the maiden". And we already have extensive folklore on "the maidens".

    The gifts include camels:

    uṣṭrānāṃ


    And again, this may seem to be a name, but what are the names:


    “He who of his own will has been pleased to give me this honoured gift, he, performer of good works,(has determined) on a pre-eminently good action, amid Aratva, Nahuṣa and Sukṛtvan.”

    Who hath inclined this glorious one, bounteous himself, to give me gifts.
    Borne on firm chariot with the prosperous Nahus, wise, to a man yet more devout.


    And as if one was not enough:


    “This tall maiden, adorned with gold, is led towards me, Vaśa, the son of Aśva.”


    Although he possibly mentions "Nahusa", that is not what is important here.

    If Gotama was the Kurus' priest, the Rg Veda would be full of them. Instead, it uses "kuru" a few times as the verb "to make". There is, potentially, such a lineage, or "Kauras", and we covered that. Nothing much about the Kurus or Yayati is very plausible compared to what is in the Samhita. Even if such existed, it was not that important and not really the point.

    When we are told "vaivasvata" is "aggregate of humanity", "nahusas" are basically this, as are "manavas" and "martayas".

    I would say the point is almost entirely in unifying the tribes in one practice.

    At no point does it reject foreign deities. It does not argue that people should not worship IVC Tiger Goddess, Bactrian Eagle, or any other competitor. Instead, it denounces those who have *no* rites, those who do them poorly, and especially those who *do* worhip Indra/Aswins/etc., but if they are the Rishis' enemies, the plea is made to vampirize the deity away from the other followers.

    It *does* have a single source, so the idea that Vedic practice lacks "founders" is entirely incorrect. It lacks that collection of hymns that would represent *most* of the early followers prior to Bharadvaja, so we must be content that it has collected anything at all. What has been retained is extremely consistent throughout, there are no theological or philosophical disputes. What emerges is that Usas and the Aswins are the ones renowned for helping with "personal problems", and the other deities are a bit more universal and have somewhat assigned roles.


    So far, a Vedic "patriarchy" of "Manus" appears more solid having Nabhanedistha around the origin, Vaivasvata in the period of major expansion. His "upa-mandala" may have a similar configuration to what seem to be the themes of Sukla Yajurveda. This upholds Dampati and Mithuna and Waters in a particular way, which is even found in Rg Veda in how that in Book One, Medhatithi substantially quotes Sindhudvipa Ambarisa from Book Ten on Waters. You obviously won't very easily notice this if you read it like a book in linear order. If your guidance has been that the "many Kanvas" are less significant than other Rishis revived in later literature, nothing like this would enter your mind.

    Yajurveda is oriented towards any and all householders, Atharvaveda more for yogis and ayurveda. "Sama" is intellectually almost completely unoriginal, because it is the same mantras re-configured into music or Gandharva Veda.

    It may hold ground that Manu Vaivasvata is the "first in importance", not the "first in history". If we can find it is a fairly complete, coherent vision that collects most of its fragmented antecedents and synthesizes them in a way designed for re-broadcast and distribution. I don't know, but I think it may be close. We may be able to figure out a way to represent the "nucleus" with colors and symbols, and accurately depict the Rg Veda in a visual mandala. It's not linear, the beginning of creation is subordinate its own Speech centered on Agni. Exactly like Bharadvaja, with more to it, particularly the Trikadrukas.


    I hesitate to say we should conclude that Mandhata = Root Manu, but, I'm not sure we can tell a difference, either. Besides his own hymn, which praises Indra's mother, with an addition by Godha saying to follow the way of mantra, he is quite scarce. Note that at first, Kutsa does *not* attach the name "Purukutsa" here in I.112:


    Wherewith ye served Krsanu where the shafts were shot, and helped the young man's horse to swiftness in the race;
    Wherewith ye bring delicious honey to the bees, -- Come hither unto us, O Asvins, with those aids.


    Sayana interepreted "the young" as "Purukutsa" whereas the phrase is closer to Mandhata's patronymic "Yuvanasva".

    The actual memory of him connects the Aswins:


    “With those aids by which you encompassed the sun, when afar off, (to extricate him from eclipse); by which you defended Mandhātā in (the discharge of) his sovereign functions, and by whicḥ you protected the sage Bharadvāja; with them, Aśvins, come willingly hither.”


    The generic meaning is as in this epithet from Trita to Agni X.2:


    thinker art thou, wealth-giver, true to Order

    mandhātā́si draviṇodā́ ṛtā́vā


    Kutsa is a late collector of many things; the older verification is with Nabhaka Kanva, calling Agni:


    the messenger of Vivaśvat


    His own name may well be a contraction of the refrain used in almost every verse of his four hymns:


    nabhantām anyake same ||

    may all our adversaries perish


    and here, rather than assisted by Aswins, Agni helps Mandhata defeat the Dasyus:


    mandhātur dasyuhantamam agniṃ yajñeṣu pūrvyaṃ


    This is Agni:

    who takes refuge in all rivers (Sindhu)

    Indra and Soma are said by Sayana to take refuge at the River Amsumati, due to certain incidents. Here, Agni does so in a very primal manner.



    Nabhaka hardly makes any other historical references, except this twice in a row:


    breaks the eggs of Śuṣṇa

    who breaks the eggs of Śuṣṇa


    Then, it may not be, strictly speaking, a "lineage", but clearly a tradition:


    “Thus has a new hymn been addressed to Indra and Agni, as was done by my father, by Mandhātā, by Aṅgirasa; cherish us with a triply defended dwelling; may we be the lords of riches.”


    with only one more character:


    In like manner as the pious Atri, Aśvins, invoked you with hymns


    The looseness seems to suggest that his father is simply Kanva. Doesn't say. He appears to be instructing "the Nabhakas", but then no other Rishi refers to him.


    His Varuna arises *from* the Sindhu with Seven Sisters:


    sindhūnām upodaye saptasvasā

    The nights he hath encompassed, and stablished the morns with magic art visible over all is he.

    usro māyayā

    His dear Ones, following his Law, have prospered the Three Dawns for him.


    tasya venīr anu vratam uṣas tisro avardhayan


    That line is tricky because it does not have "three times", and for "dear ones", it has been taken as a feminized "vena/veno" as used earlier in the Book for "lover".

    This is a unique case where there is a merged implication in the meaning of Veni:



    1. Weaving. 2. Unornamented and braided hair, as worn by widows and women whose husbands are absent, viz. twisted together in a single braid

    Assemblage of water, as the conflux of rivers.

    Assemblage of water, as the conflux of rivers, &c., in that case it rather implies their parallel course, ending in a common point of union; as at Allahabad, where the Ganga, Yamuna, and as is supposed, the Saraswati, all coming from the north, unite


    It is the sole reference in Book Eight:


    "This Veni, because of a vow, magnifies Dawn triply".


    His last section on the Aswins that mentions Atri is credited as:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): nābhākaḥ kāṇvaḥ arcānānā vā


    Arcana is standard for "worship" all the way through Dakarnava Tantra, but here in the last verse, Arcananas refers to himself, which makes it very hard to argue that part of it is not by him.

    That would contradict our logic, if an early Kanva had worked with a late Atreya. One possibility is that the whole "timeline" of the Rg Veda would disappear into one event, were you to say that the Bharata Divodasa *is* the Ikshvaku Trasadasyu, and everyone is saying the same thing in different aliases and dialects.

    Or, the hymn might be accreted. Nabhaka is after the four hymns in Book Eight by Syavasva Atreya; Arcananas is supposed to be related to him. It is possible these Atreyas might have "kept" Nabhaka's hymns, if he does not seem to be known to other Kanvas. Maybe Nabhaka is not "early" at all, but composed in an unelaborated way.

    It is indisputable that Arcananas is in the hymn, but the possibility of interpolation is weaker than areas where you see a person-to-person connection, usually donations or stated relationships. In Book Five, his own hymns make no external connections, to Kanvas, Angirases, or otherwise.


    We will have to let that stand as it is, and next perhaps attempt to "paint a nucleus" with Manu Vaivasvata.



    Even in the broadest definitions, one finds the preponderance of the identity Yama Vaivasvata. Overlooking the many twists of later literature, this is of course correct in the Rg Veda, for Yama and Yami. But from the Veda, you get the tangible meaning from Yama himself in X.14:


    vaivasvataṃ saṃgamanaṃ janānāṃ yamaṃ rājānaṃ haviṣā duvasya ||

    Yama, king (of the Pitṛs), son of Vivasvat, the aggregation of mankind, who conducts those who are virtuous over the earth, and opens to many the path (of heaven).


    Yama is the son of "people", but he discovered the Path, and remains in Heaven in Immortality as the first "Father" or "Pitr" in this sense.

    This station is obvious from Resurrection X.58:


    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): mana āvarttanam


    yat te yamaṃ vaivasvatam mano jagāma dūrakam |


    THY spirit, that went far away to Yama to Vivasvan's Son...


    How does this work with the evidently reversed name, Manu Vaivasvata?

    Book Ten has a simple sequence about "Manavas" that tells us everything, in this area:


    X.61-62 Nabhanedistha Manava

    X.63-64 Gaya Plata


    The first is in relation to Manu Savarni, who is called in Puranas "the future Manu". No, in fact, he already lived, and most likely, Saryata Manava is also associated here, not to Vaivasvata. Those hymns are probably in the time of Kaksivan.

    The next composer is opposite, very late. Gaya Plata's first verse refers to "offspring, descendants" of Manu Vaivasvata. Further along, he removes the title and refers to the plain, first, or "root" Manu as:


    Ādityas, to whom, Manu, having kindled the fire, offered the first sacrifice...


    which effectively makes "Manu" synonymous to Yama and Atharvan. Each of these three is credited with the first real Vedic rite, the first success of man evoking Agni and attaining Immortality. Maybe they were three people who worked together at the same time; or maybe it is one person with aliases.

    He praises mainly Visvedevas, invoking the same "svasti" as in the Svastyatreya hymns. A few verses hone this in on:


    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): pathyāsvastiḥ


    and he makes some informative invocations:


    yamáṃ diví tritáṃ vā́tam uṣásam aktúm ašvínā


    At the birth of Dakṣa, at his sacred rite, you, Aditi, worshipped the royal Mitra and Varuṇa at the sacred rite.


    Kṛśānu, the archers, and Tiṣya


    again an Atri-esque expression:


    mātā bṛhaddivā


    and "sons of Rudra" which excludes the form "raudra" to be used in this manner:

    rudrāṇām marutām


    Gaya Plata did not place himself personally close to any Manu. He has inherited a "system of Vaivasvata" which is considerably more complex and extensive than the early Rg Veda hymns, in the way the Atreyas' Book Five sounds a bit new and extensive.

    He *did* refer to the Sarayu River, where Vamadeva says two Aryas were killed, and is only mentioned again by Syavasva.



    Timewise, between Nabhanedistha and Gaya Plata, is Kasyapa, who is called by others "Manu Vaivasvata", but this is not quite what he says of himself.

    If we ask, he is actually quite clear in Kasyapa IX.113, where he is following what we took as important expansions around the time of Book Six:


    śaryaṇāvati somam

    ārjīkāt soma


    “The daughter of Sūrya brought the vast Soma large as a rain-cloud; the gandharva seized upon it and placed the juice in the Soma; flow, Indu, for Indra.”


    That combines and summarizes Kaksivan and most of the Vedic backstory. There are no additional, confusing details. It is Usas and whatever happened in Himachal Pradesh.

    He goes on to invoke "perpetual light", which is in the third heaven, the abode of the sun, and of Immortality. Well, sure, if you are not confined on a rotating planet, there would not be any nights. This is the Third Step of Vishnu.

    Next, he, in fact, is merely evoking the power of Vaivasvata:


    yatra rājā vaivasvato yatrāvarodhanaṃ divaḥ | yatrāmūr yahvatīr āpas tatra mām amṛtaṃ kṛdhīndrāyendo pari srava ||


    “Where Vivasvat's son is king, where the inner chamber of the sun (is), where these great waters (are), there make me immortal; flow, Indu, for Indra.”


    He doesn't say he is the father of, son of, or is Manu Vaivasvata, but has bowed to whomever that may be. It is hard to see why Yama would not be intended.

    So far, the Rg Veda hasn't said much about what is supposed to be either "the first man", or a grand architect of all the Vedas, or something like that. On the other hand, Manu is an individual Rishi who contributes a fair amount in Book Eight, but later literature almost deletes the Kanvas and injects "Saunaka" as an equivalent replacement.

    The basic structure of these hymns grabbing their first subjects will not tell us much:



    VIII.27 Visvedeva


    VIII.28 Visvedeva


    VIII.29 Visvedeva


    VIII.30 Visvedeva


    VIII.31 Yajamana



    Curiously, just in the middle at VIII.29, we find the attribution:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): manurvaivasvataḥ kaśyapo vā mārīcaḥ


    who begins with:


    “One (Soma) brown of hue, all-pervading, leader of the nights, ever young, decorates (himself) with golden ornament.”

    babhrur eko viṣuṇaḥ sūnaro yuvāñjy aṅkte hiraṇyayam ||



    Ejecting the parentheses, we are left with "One Babhru", whom we have met as Babhru Ratreya, of the night, just as said here.


    Looking into these hymns as a set, it is not quite a "mandala nucleus". Vaguely so. It still seems more like arbitrary, formulaic Visvedevas references, without any particular pattern.

    The first one shows us this is not an "ancient" hymn:


    ṛcā yāmi

    I invoke with the holy verse...

    With song I seek...


    since, as per Godha, the original term was "mantra". The expression "rik" was introduced, and took over, because it simply defines that structure of mantras that are used in the Rg Veda. It's not "song", or "sama", which is a further modification.



    Three times, the recipient of benefits is called "manave", which ought to be "mankind", unless you argue that it would be "to Manu, the reciter of this hymn". There is one instance where the recital of praise is supposed to be done:


    manuṣvad


    "like Manu", or, i. e., like the transmission from Manu teaches. It would not make sense to say "let me do these praises in the style of me".


    One likable part here is this type of newish expression, which is certainly more compatible with "householders":


    He gains (wealth) without war...


    which is a huge, pivotal point, if we were under the impression it was all Indra securing battles for kings. That's more like a necessary pre-requisite so we *can* do this.


    Sunset and sunrise:


    nimruci prabudhi




    VIII.28:


    patnīvanto vaṣaṭkṛtāḥ ||


    The wives of the gods are also addressed with "vasat" or "vausat".

    The sevenfold Maruts also have seven aspects of Sri:


    sapto adhi śriyo dhire ||





    VIII.29:


    This is elegant, where the "Babhru" verse is followed by "symbolic" verses, where Sayana fills in the deity he believes represented. This part is good, and has a very esoteric Pusan. But when he says "the Atris" are the singers of Saman, we would have to suggest the singers are not a family, but a level of performance.



    VIII.30:


    Here are a couple of other examples where "Manu" is perhaps singularized:


    “Destroyers of foes, gods, adored by Manu, who are three-and-thirty, and are thus hymned.”

    iti stutāso asathā riśādaso ye stha trayaś ca triṃśac ca | manor devā yajñiyāsaḥ ||


    or:

    Thus be ye lauded, ye destroyers of the foe, ye Three-and-Thirty Deities,
    The Gods of man, the Holy Ones.



    and another verse:


    lead us not afar from the paternal paths of Manu

    mā naḥ pathaḥ pitryān mānavād


    or:

    Lead us not from our fathers' and from Manu's path



    Neither translator seemed to know how to contend with:


    víšve vaišvānarā́



    VIII.31:


    This began by listing a subject similar to "Yajur Veda". This one, however, *does* shift to something correspondingly more specific:


    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): dampatī


    Continuing from the war-less remark just given are similar verses, on how it is relatively easy for householders to succeed, as long as they actually do it. The result is hard to miss:


    “Offering acceptable sacrifices, obtaining the wealth they solicit, presenting gratifying (oblations to the gods), for the sake of immortality enjoying personal union, they (wife and husband) worship the gods.”


    An interesting part is that the Devas send *you* a chariot.

    In order for the Aswins to win Usas, the Rbhus made them a chariot. But you get one back--again, of course the mental sense is intended here--and if you think of it abstractly, it does not mean you visualize yourself in an actual horse-drawn vehicle that happens to drive in the sky. It's not that superficial. It's a Vimana. It fits into your measured/designed spaces of a shrine, etc., and conveys you after death and configures your abode in Heaven. Relates to the Aswins, it is Astrology or the secret knowledge of the Rishis.



    Finally there is a slight shift to:


    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): dampatyorāśiṣaḥ


    I am not sure how it is compounded:


    uraśī (उरशी).—a fem (ūra) Having breasts


    This returns to Visvedevas praises, starting with:


    “We solicit the happiness (afforded) by the mountains, the rivers, and Viṣṇu, associated (with the gods).”


    and:

    pūṣā rayir bhagaḥ svasti


    saparyántaḥ purupriyám

    Saparya has an unknown or non-Sanskrit derivation; from "Kandwadi" is suggested; although this word is used abundantly in the Veda, in "sapara" and other forms.


    by these means:


    The chariot of the devout worshipper quickly (prevails)


    Kasyapa is useless unless things like "chariot", "horses", "Soma", etc., are abstract and symbolic, which is exactly how they are defined in other areas of the Rg Veda.


    I think that is a good finale. All the prior knowledge translates into something symbolic, which may be framed in a householder practice, which works perfectly well for the desired result.

    If our relative chronology is correct, this was pre-packaged in the Varsagira times and given to Rishi Atri and Trasadasyu, becoming commonplace across a culture that had probably secured Kashmir, Afghanistan, and Pakisthan. If this was around 1,600 B. C. E., it is the *same* expansion that placed Indians into positions of influence around Aleppo and the Mittani Kingdom.

    Syavasva and others indicate another generation of prosperity. There is not much indication of battle or conflict that may have absorbed Gujarat or parts of south India. There is evidence of, but not a complete story of, some amount of unity. The generation of Trasadasyu's grandson involves death while in office, and fewer and fewer instances of the Vedic saga continuing to unfold. These very last Rishis are not adding much of anything, intellectually, in terms of the practice or the deities, although they witness and attest to their efficacy.

    Yama Vaivasvata is most likely the same as Manu and Atharvan.

    Manu Savarni was an early re-use of the title.

    Manu Vaivasvata may simply be Kasyapa Marica.



    The fusion into "Dampati" is perhaps "expanded" in Yajur Veda, which uses synonyms and alternatives. The Rg Veda doesn't, because this is not what it is really "about"--it is the whole milieu conquered and harnessed for the purpose.


    The expression is used by Yami Vaivasvati in her schizophrenia.

    It has a more palpable function from Vasusruta Atreya on Agni:


    “You are Aryaman in relation to maidens; you bear, enjoy of sacrificial food, a mysterious name; they anoint you, like a welcome friend, with milk and butter, when you make husband and wife of one mind.”


    Very nearly the same description is given by Pururavas Aila.

    If we understand "robbers" as "mental distractions", the same thing is said symbolicly by Surya Savitri.


    Brhaspati Angirasa does the bringing together and uniting, according to Ayasya. This is convenient, because Brhaspati gave us Vak, the important definition of Speech for Vedic purposes, and this brings it full circle.

    But aside from Manu Vaivasvata, Rg Veda only allows Dampati as a subject in two areas:


    Lopamudra I.179

    Kaksivan I.125


    And in this case, Kaksivan is really talking about donations, or the principle of generosity. It includes this useful vocabulary:


    sindhavo mayobhuva

    copiously-yielding and joy-conferring


    but isn't really about any kind of couple.


    Lopamudra and Agastya however, are agreeing with Mithuna. Here, she makes what we would recognize as a normal "Om mantra" about it:


    Om nu patnīr vṛṣaṇo jagamyuḥ


    plural:


    Om nu patnīr vṛṣabhir jagamyuḥ


    In those hymns, Dirghatamas and Agastya are credited with *lots* of children.

    Out of all those, Manu Vaivasvata "systematizes" it. Rather than exalting the principle, he has built it into the universal application. VIII.29 *is* a bit like a crystal seed for Visvedevas, and then VIII.31 with Dampati is not just a very direct synopsis, but, because it passes from someone called "Manu", this means that it must have been accepted by a wave of followers, which in this case becomes considerably larger than the ones before.

    The teaching is enacted by Lopamudra.

    It is implicit in certain poignant quotes, and a major basis for Sukla Yajur Veda.

    On the other hand, the mystical intricacies of the divine magical world it opens are shrouded by Yama and Sindhudvipa from Book Ten, in the way copied by Medhatithi into Book One. This is somewhat dis-organized, perhaps like Krsna Yajur Veda, however it is bizarrely like the Apri concept, because Havirdhana is named for a ritual object, a twin set of wagons, which then obviously have their parallel in Yami and Yama.

    It appears that Yami holds Yama's funeral.

    Their antiquity is indicated by things like Cyamana being equivalent to a Yamayana follower.

    We might have to say that Nabhanedistha Manava briefly speaks of a pre-creation before Brhaspati's Deva Creation. Nevertheless, Brhaspati gives us the fundamental teaching on Vak, and goes on to apply this through the Dampati. Manu Vaivasvata transmits this to a vast population. In the period since Savarni Manu, there had already developed the Tarksya or Syena or Golden Hawk, which in popular literature is associated with Kasyapa. It is also correct that Kadru of Arbuda had already "joined". It is not out of the question that Kasyapa osmosed multiple streams of existence, quite possibly by having wives from different areas. I don't recall if we found any clearer proof.

    The point was to ask, what did Vedic Manu Vaivasvata actually say, and it turns out to be mostly standard Visvedevas praises with nothing original really added. Comparatively, Atri's Brhaddiva and Triple Bull are very elaborate and detailed as the Book Ten mirroring.

    Notably, it is for householders to make love, not war. It basically literally says that. To me at least, this sounds like it follows the spirit of Brhaspati's Vak. And so we easily have a simple, exoteric way to begin whatever the practices are about, which is not repetition, so much as a change of state of being. Therefor the symbolic, complex, yoga-sounding parts are just as valid. But this is much more difficult. This is why later literature is useful, even if it is not "scripture". The Veda is "scripture". Even the expression "Buddhist scripture" would only get me to say "Buddha-quality yoga commentary". It is the same Indra Trayatrimsa and Yama Heaven, with additional teaching.


    Manu, without qualifiers, remains relevant to the Vedic Origin.

    Nabhanedistha is almost an Indra III as influenced by Kaksivan and Manu Savarni.

    Kasyapa and/or Manu Vaivasvata was influential to Trasadasyu, or is what the entire saga seems to be "about". He focuses the subject Yajamana, which is primarily the donor of, secondarily the performer of, a rite. That would be less complex in a householder setting. So it has a third meaning of "husband".


    Book Ten has a "Manu" symbol in the middle, a beginning based around Waters as copied into Book One, and I would say shows a very arcane Divine Marriage based through Surya Savitri. This finally extends into a certain state, as according to Indra:


    “The daughter of Manu, Parśu by name, bore twenty children at once; may good fortune, O arrow of Indra, befall her whose belly was so prolific; Indra is above all (the world).”


    parśur ha nāma mānavī sākaṃ sasūva viṃśatim |


    That is the end of X.86, which is mostly an argument with Indrani about Vrsakapi. We have found this hymn to probably be strongly sexual and political-revolutionary in one. The actual deity is Varuna, which means this conversation is effectively "in court" or similar to an oath. A recorded dispute. "Vrsakapi" is not found again in the Rg Veda, and kapi, "ape", appears to be used by Indrani in a derogatory, uncivilized sense.


    If one was really tracking Manu's intricate history, you would use this, but the Rg Veda does not pursue it. In this spelling, her name is Parsu, a rib. The only other "manavi" is apparent in the Soma hymn of Ambarisa & Rjisvan IX.98:


    rodasī the progeny of Manu


    where this, ignored by the translator, is amiable enough for a Couple trained by Gairiksita:


    devo devī giriṣṭhā


    Interpretively, one could legitimize the name Ila Manavi as well. But it is not in the Samhita, which very literally says Parsu is the name of Manu's daughter, but not of which one. This is far more crisp and clear than "nahusa manava".




    A similar theme relying on Plants or Osadhi to overcome rival wives is spoken by Indrani X.145.



    Probably the most important and powerful is Saci Paulomi X.159 where she simply takes over the king and his kingdom.


    She *may* be indicative of a mortal name. We do not find Puloma is not found in the Vedas, but the Puranas suggest:


    wife of Bhṛgu and mother of Chyavana

    daughter of Vaiśvānara and a wife of Kaśyapa (Mārīca)


    Saci is thought by Sayana to be Asuri Krtya of Atharva Veda.

    This also uses Stri Karmani via Plants.


    "Vrsakapi Aindra" suggests this Rishi would be of a similar generation as "Vimada Aindra", as likely derived from Indrapramati Vasistha. Vimada is very well-known, having married someone called daughter of Purumitra by Kaksivan, and Kamadyu by Vasukarna Vasukra, who appears to follow Vauskra Aindra. Starting at X.20, the Anukramani gives the dual authorship:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): vimada aindraḥ prājāpatyo vā vasukṛdvā vāsukraḥ

    This appears to say "Vimada Aindra and/or Prajapati Vasukrt Vasukra".


    Vimada is also mentioned by Savya Angiras along with Rjisvan, Divodasa, Vamra, Usanas, Saryata, Kaksivan, Mena, and the Pajras.

    The Aindras' hymns refer to the obscure Apva, but otherwise, they are only found in the Anukramani. No one refers to them, and they never say "we Aindras". There is an unusual attribution in X.28:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): indravasukrayoḥ saṃvāda aindraḥ


    which is something like "Indra Vasukra conversation". Vasukra claims the powers of Indra:


    “Overcomer of foes, (Indra) be cognizant of this my (power, whereby) rivers bear their water backwards, and the eater of cut (grass) confronts the lion, the jackal drives the wild boar from his lair.”


    grassy hiding place:


    kakṣāt



    “(Vasukra speaks). The hare grasps the assailing beast of prey; with a clod of clay I cleave the distant(mountain); I can compel the great to submit to the small; swelling (with courage) the calf attacks the bulḷ”.



    For what sounds like a common name, "Vasukra" is only recognizable as these two individuals. The suffix "-krt" is probably a redundancy; the common form Kra is as in Dadhi-kra, which we take as a synonymous derivation from "Dadhyan", i. e. an active maker or doer or related to battles.

    Vasukra is not spoken of by other Rishis. It may be that Prajapati Vasukra was known to outsiders as Vimada Aindra, and then there was Vasukra Aindra. If "Vasukra" has another surname, it only accounts for three verses.


    The "Eleven Vasisthas" of Book Nine is mostly Parasara and Kutsa, with this Rishi also in IX.97:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): vasukro vāsiṣṭhaḥ


    comparatively, even "saktivasistha" may not be a personal name here. The hymn does not reference "the Vasisthas", but:


    The Vṛṣagaṇas


    As with "sakti", these are probably Vasistha attributes, not individual Rishis:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): indrapramatirvāsiṣṭhaḥ

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): vyāghrapādvāsiṣṭhaḥ

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): karṇaśrudvāsiṣṭhaḥ


    but like Vrsagana and Vasukra, these are:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): mṛḷīko vāsiṣṭhaḥ (X.150 with Kanva and Trasadasyu)

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): parāśaraḥ śākttyaḥ


    It does not seem to me here that "Indra" is an individual Vasistha follower, and most likely "the Aindras" are directly named for the deity.

    So it was conjectured that Vasukra Vasistha here is identical with Vasukra Aindra of Book Ten. It looks like there is more resolution to be found with Vimada Aindra, who we see in Book One with what looks like the crowd of Savarni Manu's time.

    It amounts to saying that Savarni is relevant in Kaksivan's time, and then Vaivasvata applies to Trasadasyu. So far, this seems to make more sense and has a lot of explanatory power towards both objective events and pantheism.

    Indra is very immanent and could be or is supposed to be anyone, the Brahmanas take full advantage of this idea, but it is certainly present in the Samhita. The later literature suggests the Vasistha name faded away, because later generations simply relied on their inherited post, rather than being devoted practitioners like Vasistha himself. They say this while also making a big insistence about a major author as the son of Parasara Saktya. This is not found or not present. Instead we see the successful Indra is destined to serve the successful Saci.

    Like most of the rest of the Samhita, it is probably triple in meaning, i. e., based on an actual occurrence, representative of natural forces, and internal or yogic. That would make phenomenal sense. The Veda doesn't go on to further details. It sets up a Dhyana, to which, what we categorize as Yoga is a refinement of.

    I would suggest this is self-definitive, moreso than "early, middle, late". If you just take "Manu" then it means the definite launch of the Vedic practice, its own use of language or Speech and mystical training, which is the only way to identify it from what may have even been a standing Sanskrit culture with some form of Indra beliefs. It's not an Adam legend. It is a spontaneously-discovered Soma rite. This would be relevant towards a fragmentary, symbolic, legendary period with a couple of Indra "events".

    "Savarni Manu" implies a lot of liturgical expansion through Kaksivan.

    "Vaivasvata Manu" implies a massive manifestation through Trasadasyu.


    What I see coming out of this is a form of navigation that flows from the seed, or, if you are more technical, you can take the detailed expansions and trace their basis. What we are having to do is analyze what is available. I am convinced it draws its own picture which was not even known to the editors of the Brahmanas. As a student of Mantra, I simply observe what is in those mantras, along with its Parampara or "apostolic succession". I haven't found anywhere this has been published.

    For one thing, I think some color coding would change it, so if you have Angirases such as Dirghatamas and Kaksivan, they are visually distinct from Ikshvakus like Mandhata and Vasistha, would make it easier to recognize.



    "Prajapati" as explained to us in the comments is also just not as it is in the Samhita. Now, it would not be all that correct to suggest that Brhaspati is the *only* type of source about deva creation, but he is a very early Rishi who combines this illuminating fact with a mission, Vak, which leads to Dampati. That is the simple story.

    In the thousand hymns, for example, that of Prajapati Paramesthin states that Kama first arose from the condition of absolute void nothingness.

    One might think he is followed by the composer of perhaps the most magical creation hymn, Hiranyagarbha Prajapatya, who uses it in one of the few instances of what sounds like personal address.

    But overall, the use of "prajapati" in the Rg Veda is rather dim and unclear, while there is a personal invocation of Daksa by Gotama Rahugana, commented as:


    he is also the creator, Hiraṇyagarbha, diffused among breathing or living creatures as breath or life; prāṇo vai dakṣaḥ, dakṣa is verily breath


    Well, the generic term, "daksa", is very frequent, having all the senses of physical power, mental concentration, Asu or Divine Breath or the One Power, as well as successful performance of Yajna or rites. So again, it must be analyzed and then can be found elsewhere as a name, such as for the Ka of Hiranyagarbha, the divine "he who".


    Similarly in Gotama's I.76:


    who, by sacrifices has obtained your might [?]

    ko vā yajñaiḥ pari dakṣaṃ





    As an entity built into the pantheon, Daksapitara is used by Vasistha for Mitravaruna.

    By Rjisvan for Visvedevas.

    Pragatha as well.


    His mysterious behavior is illustrated by Aditi Daksayani X.72. Visvamitra also uses Daksayani. More specifically he identifies her as Ila.


    Aditi is present in his birthplace in the third world according to Trita:


    parame vyoman dakṣasya janmann aditer upasthe |


    A closely-related parallel is given by Gaya Plata.


    Daksa is said to have offered praise of the Aswins.



    The Seven Sages say "daksa" is conferred by The Wind. There are two, one is Daksa and the other drives away evil, and they bring medicine.


    From Jamadagni, Soma is Daksa of the mountains:


    asāvy aṃśur madāyāpsu dakṣo giriṣṭhāḥ | śyeno na yonim āsadat ||


    Dirghatamas assigns Vishnu the "daksa" of:


    Aharvid (अहर्विद्):—[=ahar-vid] [from ahar] mfn. knowing the (right) days or the fit season, [Ṛg-veda]


    Among the Adityas, Dakso Amsa.


    It appears where we might ask what Vasistha really means by Vira Karman and Yukta Grava.

    It is given this interpretation from Vimada:


    Dakṣam = antarātman, the soul or heart


    And finally involved with the ultimate power according to Gauriviti Saktya:


    try aryamā manuṣo devatātā trī rocanā divyā dhārayanta | arcanti tvā marutaḥ pūtadakṣās tvam eṣām ṛṣir indrāsi dhīraḥ ||


    “In the adoration of the gods by Manu there are three effulgences, and they, (the Maruts), uphold three luminaries in heaven; the Maruts of pure energy worship you, for you, Indra, are their intelligent ṛṣi”




    We find:


    Parsu Manavi

    Ila Manavi <--> Ila Daksayani


    In Parsu's hymn, we find Vrsakapi Aindra is also a Mrga -- Deer. Indrani is more or less taking over, and there is the revolving scene of male virility. That is the vague hint that Parsu may have been the benefactress of an Aswin's cure of impotence. There is no context "what" Manu she was the daughter of, and so we are left unable to distinguish her from Ila of whom the same is said.


    One may notice that, unlike some other ritual components, Soma appears limited:

    Quote Thou, Indra, heedless passest by the ill Vrsakapi hath wrought;
    Yet nowhere else thou findest place wherein to drink the Soma juice.


    Indrani's complaint is along these lines:


    The ape has spoiled the beloved ghī-adorned (oblations) made to me (by worshippers)

    Kapi hath marred the beauteous things, all deftly wrought, that were my joy.


    She also refers to him as:

    ayaṃ śarārur

    Śarāru (शरारु):—[from śara] a mfn. injurious, noxious


    She is described quite similarly to Ila:


    The mother who is the instructress of the ceremony

    the rite's ordainer


    Vrsakapi is told to find a dead "thing like himself":


    parasvantaṃ


    Indra speaks:


    Here I come to the (sacrifice) looking upon (the worshippers), distinguishing the Dāsa and the Ārya; I drink (the Soma) of the (worshipper), who effuses (the Soma) with mature (mind); I look upon the intelligent (sacrificer)


    Then, there is a change, and the "brute" aspect appears separated from Vrsakapi:


    When, Indra and Vrsakapi, ye travelled upward to your home,
    Where was that noisome beast, to whom went it, the beast that troubles man?


    Rise up and come home, Vṛṣākapi and Indra; where is that destructive beast, to what (region) has(that beast), the exhilarator of men, gone?


    Parsu's belly or uterus is not prolific, but damaged, hurt, miserable.

    It has the sound of asking for her good fortune in the present tense.

    It's an extraordinarily debatable name:


    Parśu (पर्शु) occurs in one passage in a Dānastuti (‘praise of gifts’) in the Rigveda as the name of a man. It is not certain that he is identical with Tirindira, but the Śāṅkhāyana-śrauta-sūtra mentions Tirindira Pāraśavya as the patron of Vatsa Kāṇva. In another passage occurring in the Vṛṣākapi hymn, Parśu Mānavī occurs, apparently as a woman, daughter of Manu, but who is meant it is quite impossible to say.



    True enough, but, again, comparatively, the hymn has *no* other concrete personalities, and it *only* says of "Manu" with no further qualifiers, so by lack of evidence to the contrary, it would mean daughter of original Manu. Of course, this is the same role as Ila, however we cannot be sure she means a human. In this hymn, Indrani is the same thing, or, at least translated as "instructress". Ila is theoretically the head of the Purus, or Aila Puravas, perhaps "five tribes"; and so far I don't think I've seen anything about original male Manu that does anything but indicate a teacher-like status. Again I think we're lucky to have those hymns that prove this happening a few generations prior to Bharadvaja. I have not yet found it possible to make a complete reconstruction of this era as can be done from Bharadvaja onwards.


    Of course, that does sound exactly like Eve if her name really says "Rib, daughter of the first teacher".

    It is not out of the question that those Indians who had settled near Aleppo didn't have a complete "Rg Veda", they *may* have had something that collected multiple Mandala Books, but what is more likely is they had some stream of particular hymns. Would a generic Indra conversation be among these, that is, a Vrsakapi Aindra hymn? That would count as inspiration for a "rib" story, presuming Eve to be a later derivative. I, at least, have not noticed such a prototype from Ugarit or Akkadia.

    The hymn is a profound conversation. It doesn't wind up addressing Indrani's concerns. One would have to question the next-to-last verse if it means Vrsakapi has shed his foul nature, and moreover, why does the whole thing seem to be laid out as well wishes for Parsu? The type of thing usually credited to the "benefactor" or "patron" of a rite. This isn't a rite. It's a theological challenge on behalf of someone placed in an important position. Nothing clarifies what she has to do with the "reformed Indra worshipper" who seems to be the main subject of the hymn. He either is Manu, or a direct follower, if no others are doing Soma Offering. They are doing some of the related offerings, and so this is almost positively a theological point, that the subject or practice of the Veda overall is the specific way developed by its own Speech and people.



    This may be the best way to re-calibrate everything. "Manu" must be one of the most well-known Indian concepts. But if we just take the Rg Veda, then, the Puranic mythos disintegrates. We would have Manu, who is not the "first human", followed by Savarni Manu "of the future", and apparently Vaivasvata Manu will be last. In that sense, he *could* still be related to Manali, which is the World's End at the height of Kullu Valley, because the Veda discusses a campaign near there. It never goes to this "final place", instead, it more or less just seizes on the Trikadruka Rite, as comes in the early part.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Manu, the cycle of time, and family tree



    I just tried to check on, who is Aitareya? and it isn't really anybody. He wasn't even a Rik chanter. He was curious, "studied" the Veda, and created one of the major commentarial schools. No wonder only some of it seems useful. This thing hasn't got any "experts". I will say that Talageri makes some "major changes" to the "academic version", and, I agree with the main basis of what he has done--the relative chronology--but on *many* details I think he published the opposite of fact. I can only say "semi-unintentionally", because, he does have a thesis, Out of India. He has to show why Afghanistan was important and how the Rg Veda events shaped the face of history clear to Europe.

    We just want to know, as accurately as possible, what is in the mantras and who is in the Anukramani. We agree it is unique, particularly in the sense that I, at least, only take *this* literature as "definitive", as in These Are the Words. One sees that all across Asia and Europe, that "kings' lists" and/or one's "heritage to Adam" is like an art form, and in that sense, Those Are Not the Words, because it is artificial. You can usually tell the cases where it is being treated more seriously.


    Yet I still spent the beginning posts of this thread taking a common Puranic view, as if it was the job of Rg Veda to support this.

    To actually study it, then, requires some consideration of how the "relative chronology" may match up to the "actual chronology" of what has happened in the surrounding world, which, even if we are only talking about "a few centuries", there must be some particular way it fits.


    The Indian archaeology has its own "gap" in the date range of interest. It seems likely that "memorization" was found to be vulnerable, leading to interest in writing. This would not have mattered in the presumably peaceful Vedic period. They thought writing was weaker than brain power, which makes sense, and they seem disinterested in masonry, which is unusual. Perhaps they were seen as the same thing. Monuments = inscriptions. Discontinuing the use of seals and not imitating tablets must have been a conscious choice.


    It is only recently that some carbon dating has indicated a possible origin of Vadnagar, Gujarat, to 1,400 B. C. E., which is about the same for original Hastinapura and Dwarka, possibly even Kashi. Vadnagar shows evidence of seven invasions, thought to be when a favorable monsoon pattern had developed in India, with drought afflicting the north-northwesterly neighbors. This sounds roughly approximate to the Takla Makan taking until about the year 600 to dessicate. I would call this "post-Vedic", in the sense that it is after the related events. A slightly longer accretion of Atharva Veda is about magic, not kingdoms. As it stands, the latest IVC places came around 1,600 B.C.E., and, Indian sites only reach back to, maybe, 1,400, and very minor to start.


    Along with the disregard for writing, there were no masonic projects:


    Quote There are a few clay tablets discovered in Syria which mention Vedic gods like Indra, Mitra, Varuna, etc. They have been dated to ~1450 B.C. Thus, the Vedic civilization was definitely older than that.

    Archaeological evidence (e.g. Grey ware, copper, no iron) when corelated with Vedic texts gives an age of ~1750 BC. [see Tracing Vedic Dialects by Witzel M.]

    Astronomical phenomenon mentioned in texts have been recently dated, which give a much earlier period. E.g. Vedanga Jyotisha mentions star positions which last occurred ~1400 BC. Since Vedanga Jyotisha is considered as belonging to late Vedic period, it stands that the Vedic civilization existed prior to that.

    However, it you are looking for direct archaeological proof of that civilization, no such find has been made so far.




    There are a few similar posts on that page. After criticizing "conceptual" history of millions of years, and, "recent" Brahmanical versions, the correct "physical" version appears to be neither:


    Quote The history of excavation says that today all the evidence of Buddhist culture in India has been found from underground through excavation, while the evidence of all culture with Brahmanical Vedic belief has been found from above ground.

    So i. e., the hitherto lack of evidence does not mean that the "histories invented later" are correct. It means this time period has nothing like the remains of IVC seals which has mistakenly been taken for a "dark age" of Aryan invasion. The available physical evidence suggests the Vedic era is older than scholarship has asserted, but not ridiculously off the deep end, because you can contrast it to the Stone Age relics from 8,000 B. C. E. onwards. So far, it is impossible to discern "late IVC" from the "early Vedic", and one of the biggest clues is probably the expansion of rice agriculture. If you took over an IVC town, you wouldn't just tell everyone to move out would you? Chances are you would leave it mostly as it was. It would take a while for rice to become significant enough to make those town layouts undesirable.


    Some of the most palpable "evidence" of age is probably not even the treaty, which merely attests the presence of an Indian village. From the significance of the Sanskrit horse training manual and showing some of the tablets:


    Quote Old Persian cuneiform(one of the oldest form of human writing) and Sanskrit pronunciation has striking similarities.

    The post is a reasonable description worth taking a closer look at.

    This is our evidence of what those villagers were doing, to become significant in the treaty. Horses are not natively Indian. Somehow, by around 1,500 B. C. E., the Indians have become masters of wealth, in a place far from home. We don't yet know if they had anything to do with Iron or the Spoked Wheel, which become major developments here, and are not part of the main story of the Rg Veda. We are however almost positive they had penetrated the Mesopotamian highlands previously, in order to distribute the Zebu into Ukraine. We don't know they lived there; it is possible the Yamnaya traders acquired their cattle via middlemen. In this sense, the Bull was perhaps meaningful at 3,000 B. C. E., and the Horse at 2,000. The Indians must have acquired, bred, and mastered the Horse rather quickly. Again, this is counter-intuitive, since, even there, horse ownership was only possible for a semi-noble rank. Unless one presumes an aberrantly high portion of "the wealthy", the most likely explanation would be that the Indian country was huge.


    Our first explanation for that is that the early Rg Veda events appear to be the attachment of Gujarat and Himachal Pradesh to the culture of the Rishis.

    Physically, we also find a migration from the Hingula Mata and Nausharo regions to Gujarat, in the "late IVC phase". We are saying that is the time frame of the events which have been recorded in a pristine manner.

    Also, from Himachal Pradesh to Nepal, in the guise of the Kirats. If seen in a favorable light, this would explain King Yalambar of 1,779 B. C. E.; if not completely accurate, we still cannot get rid of a Kiratic Yalambar, somewhere in these olden times, as some type of fallout from Divodasa's conquests.


    If we take the most basic view of tradition, HP has a few things that are potentially relevant to the Veda.

    From Himachal Pradesh sites showing Malana as the oldest democracy, near Manikara:


    Quote A little village located on the left bank of the Beas, but well above the river and about 3 kms beyond Manali and is renowned for its hot sulphur springs named as Bashisht or Vashist. There is a regular walled bathing pool with stone floors. Turkish styled shower fitted bath rooms, separate for ladies and gents have been built closely where the hot/ cold water is separately piped, maintaining the regular temperature for bathing, charges are nominal. There is cafeteria. Flanking the pool there is a stone and a wooden temple dedicated to Vashishta Muni, from whom the village gets its name. The hot sulphur springs at Vashist are famous for their great gelling powers.
    Vasistha would be meaningful to the early Rg Veda, and, perhaps, before it altogether. It would be expected the name was cycled over and over again. There are others nearly the same--other Rishis probably from the eastern, Gangetic, or Ikshvaku domain:


    Renuka Lake and Jamadagni

    Nirmand and Parasurama

    Hidimba and Bhadrakali


    The goddess can be incorporated because of being in Atharva Veda. This region, like Hingula Mata, says the head of Sati fell here. This would be post- or Para-Vedic since there is no dismemberment of Sati in the Vedas. At that point, we can only discuss philosophies or commentarial schools that may be of better or worse quality.

    Besides these traditions, I still have not seen any true survey of HP based in carbon dating, genetics, ancient artifacts, such as available for several IVC sites. Particularly with respect to Nirmand, i. e., believed to be the oldest establishment. One would suspect it aligns with the upper bound of the other discoveries, ca. 1,400 B. C. E.; if so, it is distinctly later than what appears to be the Vedic defeat of the Kiratas. The Rg Veda only goes so far as to say the Rishis did Soma Offerings in the mountains, which certainly doesn't have to be Manali, nor does it mean that Nirmand was founded. It only signifies access.


    A lot of the modern Indian articles spam the word "ancient" as if it were meaningful. However, most of their evidences *do* come either directly from Buddha, or, afterwards. It seems to me this is more like "historical" followed by "medieval". For example, Sanskrit Baveru = "Babylon" is taken from Buddhist Jataka tales (they are selling peacocks). Alternately spelled Babiru, it is not found in other sources.

    This later part is so Buddhist, it is just as likely that the Nirmand Copper Plate era was about replacing Buddhist Jambhala and Buddhakapala.

    "Jambhala" was perhaps conflated with "Jamalu Deva" and "Jamadagni". But we can be fairly sure HP took on Buddhism from a rather early time, which was later perhaps pushed out of the mainstream, and we have newer and various legends that could not have come from Vedic Nirmand. Vasistha and Jamadagni are tenable, but, there are no Shiva stories in the Rg Veda, and certainly nothing on the true Himalayas.




    And yet this is exactly where we will take "traditional Manu" and demonstrate the impossibility:



    Quote There is an interesting legend about Manali which goes to say that Manu, the author of ’Manu Samhita’, after the great deluge first stepped on the earth from the celestial boat at a place in this land. The particular spot where he established his abode was the present Manali which is regarded as the changed name of ’Manu-Alaya’, the abode of Manu. The temple dedicated to Manu is still existing in the Manali village.

    The actual significance dates back to perhaps 300 B. C. E.:


    Quote Manali is the real starting point of an ancient trade route which crosses the Rohtang and Baralacha passes, and runs via Lahul and Ladakh to Kashmir while divergent road connects it with Spiti.

    Now, if we take "manu" in its actual meaning, then, it would be legitimate to say that Manu founded this Silk Road shortcut, and a very prosperous era for Nirmand and environs, which still continues. It would just mean a normal person, who really lived, and provided this, around the time of Alexander the Great. Instead, we are told it has been grafted to the non-Vedic Flood Myth, which was almost certainly imported, perhaps by Alexander, maybe earlier.


    Going from Stone Age archaeology, it is fairly obvious that HP was originally inhabited by:


    Munda or Kols--Kolarians first, then Kirats and Sambara





    According to the Veda, Sambara was removed only after a lengthy campaign, perhaps forty years, and so it is most likely the Rishis' culture only gradually crept into the state. And, the Veda does not even have a Manu that resembles the one in the Manali legend.

    It does resemble the Mandean Savior.

    What this means is, rather than focusing a certain individual, perhaps in the face of a devastating End Times, it is discussing Divine Illumination, which lives in Heaven, and from time to time emanates on Earth as a spiritual teacher.


    In the Rg Veda, it would be correct to understand Manu as "first teacher". There are just a few places where it does mention "first man", mostly as just a logical consequence following creation of the world. The intervening gap was populated by men "without speech", then men who had speech, and finally or now from the Rishis' view, Vedic Speech.

    It is logically impossible that "the Vedas" were drifting out of the mouths, or, through the brains, of the first men. Where just about any kind of "religion" has filled this space with people that it "knows" about, the Veda is the opposite--it only cares about its *own* Speech, and the men and history that flow from that. It is "new", and it is "us", as discernable from "others".

    My best guess is that it is on a platform of "fair exchange", i. e., such that there is no reason a Vedic follower could not also give an offering to Assur or Apollo, for which, in turn, if they host a Greek or Assyrian, they might expect an offering for Indra. That seems to be how the world actually worked. No one cared what you believed about what you were doing--you just participate in the custom in a normal manner. The later Christians objected to doing this, based in the belief that it was wrong or false, which caused a lot of problems.

    It seems unlikely that the battles taking place in the Rg Veda were "religious crusades", and, it is simply due to their success that a "system of Manu" was able to spread over an apparently large area.

    From my examination, I would adhere to the notion that this "system" is in fact for a normal household couple who "acquire wealth without war".

    Manu is a moral and spiritual teaching, which is not really that hard, although one has to get accustomed to polytheism which is really pantheism.


    There are a few "Manus" in the Veda, to which, not enough information can be attached to give them a valid structure. There are, however, three, who correspond fairly closely to the "early, middle, late" periods:


    Manu


    Savarni Manu


    Vaivasvata Manu



    The key here is that, while in most of the Rg Veda, "manusa" or "manava" is a genereic conglomerate, every time that a patriarchal figure is referenced, it is always just the plain, single name, "Manu". I do not think there is a single transmission from Manu. We can't say that it is not reflexive to Atharvan. After all, several hymns appear to be using two names for the same person in consecutive verses, or even in the same line. It's a stylistic device. Anyone at the time would have understood multiple references to the same identity, in fact, this is almost like their game or pasttime, knowing the multiple names and knowing who is different.

    The closest synonym for "Manu" is "Mandhata"--both mean "the thinker". If we want to consider an abstract patriarch Manu as a separate person from Atharvan, then, it would be in the sense that Manu conveys the teaching to the public. And, if anything, Mandhata would be in a position to do that. Then the first lesson would be that his kingdom was destroyed, which is why you have Divodasa coming back from the Indian side to restore it. This is why, so to speak, we have scant evidence on Manu and Mandhata and most of the early Rishis--there are enough fragments to posit this layer of existence and to show there was a definite Beginning.


    We found that Rimush began the art of Genocide ca. 2,270 B. C. E., and, eastward into the Iranian plateau. Shortly after him was a period of instability and insurrection, along with Drought. It's not hard to conceive that struggling people here might have decided their neighbors to the east were easy targets. That is why we could imagine that by or around 2,000 B. C. E. there would be a call for Mandhata, and our literature would begin with a few incomplete generations.



    Now, in the historical sense, it is at least partially meaningful that there is a Vedic relation to the traditional "dynasties", Lunar and Solar:


    Aila Pauravas and Ayodhya Prithus




    The first is "the Purus", or Five Tribes, who provide the major bulk of the Rg Veda, and are centrally located in Uttar Pradesh and Haryana. The "story" being told, is of an alliance with eastern, or Gangetic, Ikshvakus--if they have a lineage from Prithu, this may be a possibility in the Veda. The "bond" seems to consist in the fact of Rishis from both of the major groups being known as "Angirases", who are consistently described as virupas and visvarupas, that is, multi-ethnic.

    This terminology is somewhat plausible as we see in the definition of

    Prayaga:


    ...capital of the Aila Purūravas on the north bank of the Yamunā.





    Who is the theoretical namesake or first Lunar King?


    Among the traditions, one line of descent is Ila, Pururavas, Ayu, Nahusha, Yayati...

    Also, Pururavas --> Emperor Bharata, to whom the term "Lunar Dynasty" seems to be applied. In this case, we have been unable to find the Rg Veda support an actual person who was "Emperor Bharata". It seems a little closer to the ignition of Agni. The popular lineage is used for the founder of the historical Kuru Kingdom ca. 1,200 B. C. E.. Bharata is also called son of Rsabha, which, in Rg Veda, would amount to Rsabha Vaisvamitra.

    So far I don't think we can show any kind of actual descent from Pururavas. He is, nevertheless, important.


    X.95 is the very famous "Pururavas and Urvasi", which, on the face of it, is about a temporarily-manifested nymph with a regular human being, who is credited as:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): purūravā aiḷaḥ


    who uses normal expressions for himself as "mortal":


    mānuṣo

    marto


    and says:

    (Purūravā). I, Vasiṣṭha...


    and is told:


    These gods said to you, Aiḷa, since you are indeed subject to death...


    Rishi Vasistha of Book Seven clearly says his mother is Urvasi and his fathers are Mitravaruna. What we are told is "vasistha" is an "epithet", for the "office" of Ikshvaku Purohita. To all intents and purposes, this means Pururavas is an Ikshavku, even if he is the "son of Ila".

    It does not say he is the *first* mortal, or anything other than son of Ila. When we get to cases where a person is said to be the "offspring" of a deity--such as Agni or Indra as well--this has nothing to do with the first human being.


    Another "person" who may just mean "mortal", Sarasvati VII.95 is done for Nahusa or "the nahusas".


    I.31 begins with crediting Agni as the first Angiras Rishi. The hymn mentions very few people, the first of whom appear to be:



    Manu and Pururavas


    although the first may be:


    mánave

    mankind


    This verse again makes us ask what qualifies as an individual person:


    Thee, Agni, have the Gods made the first living One for living man, Lord of the house of Nahusa.
    Ila they made the teacher of the sons of men, what time a Son was born to the father of my race.

    tvā́m agne prathamám āyúm āyáve devā́ akṛṇvan náhuṣasya višpátim
    íḷām akṛṇvan mánuṣasya šā́sanīm pitúr yát putró mámakasya jā́yate


    as would one of the last lines referring to Manu and Yayati.


    This hymn does contain those familiar terms, but, it fails to say anything specifically along the lines of "an individual, Yayati, the son of Nahusa...", but it does say Ila is a teacher to followers of Manu. Most of the other terms could be taken as "mortals", or perhaps even a "tribe", but the impression I get is that "manavas" would mean followers of the teaching. This also looks like Agni becomes the Ayu or Life of the man/mortal Nahusa/nahusa.

    It is something closer to that, than "Ayu, son of Nahusa". Agni is the Vispati as we shall see here. It is simultaneously Manu and Dampati as commented at the beginning of Book Six:


    Viśpati (विश्पति).—[masculine] chief of a settlement or a community; [dual] master and mistress of the house.

    viśpatim viśām śaśvatīnām: the epithet is explained, nityānām ṛtvig yajamāna lakṣaṇānām, i.e., their regular and perpetual observance of religious instrumental tutes

    viśāṃ < viśām < viś


    “people; tribe; Vaisya; national; viś; real property; Vaisya.”


    This is regularly Agni in every Book, not a shared attribute. Until it works slightly differently. It comes in once on a Death Trip:


    “In that leafy tree where Yama drinks with the gods, there the progenitor, the lord of the house, invites us to join the men of old.”


    The line between Yama and Manu is blurry and thin. Atharvan is the same way. All are involved as "the first" to operate Agni properly. If multiple people are credited with the same thing, the implication is they are the same person. It is a type of mental dexterity or prestidigitation. But this is really the same for almost every Sanskrit word.




    When?




    The advantage of Astrology is its narrowly-definable epochs, and that everyone around the same latitude sees the same thing. In south India, you are able to see things like Canopus and the Magellanic Clouds, which may never occur to anyone in Haryana or UP. And, we find this apprehensive "mortal" figure tied in to the Mahabharata:


    [Draco] was called
    Nahush by the ancient Indo-Aryans and was figured, as if
    it was riding on a chariot, vide Rig Veda III-53-6 & VIII-46-27;. The constellation of Bears and Auriga were then
    named chariot and charioteer respectively.


    Those verses say nothing like this, so, if true at all, it is not until the development of the Epic. In the more cautious words of Hiltebeitel:


    As to identifying Nahusa as "die Schlange," that is, the constellation Draco which is beside the Big Dipper, things are less certain.



    Well, even in the layer of "different ancient traditions", a better comparison was perhaps started by Iyengar:


    Quote There are several different Sūtra texts attached to the four Vedas demonstrating not only their lateness, but also their spatial spread in accounting for the variation in the practices. However, the common feature of all these texts, in the historical context, is their memory of Dhruva as a fixed star to be invoked, seen and shown to the bride in the marriage rite. In all cases, the hymn for addressing Dhruva is same as or very similar to the one in the Ekāgni-kāṇḍa (I.9) mentioned above.

    and:


    Quote But for the more ancient period we have no exclusive texts other than Lagadha’s Vedānga Jyotiṣa (c 1400 BCE)

    Over a long period of time the effect of precession was also felt as with the loss of importance for the constellation Śiśumāra (Draco) and shifting of the Pole Star Dhruva. The astral descriptions and the religious lore behind the above astronomical entities provided the inspiration for the development of observational and mathematical astronomy in India.

    Yes, of course. Around 3,000 B. C. E., Thuban in Draco was the Pole Star, Taurus was at the Spring Equinox, Cows were wealth.

    A thousand years later, they are displaced, nothing is true any more. Our suggestion is that these names were transferred to different stars, just as the name of an "office" like "Manu" or "Indra" may be occupied by a new person. The Rg Veda's response on this is singular. In Divodasa's reign, Simsumara was "yoked"--which I would suggest, means it took up a new location in the current constellation, leaving Draco. This is approximately installing the reign of a "new sky god", Varuna, in place of the depiction we find on the IVC seals. The IVC Simsumara is conjoined with Tiger Goddess, who has no continuity in the Veda, as if she has been censored. The new constellation does not seem to have a non-Indic equivalent. Star systems are not the same.


    One of his suggestions perhaps helps explain a timing when Savitri is using a rare form of aghāsu:


    ...the oxen are whipped along in the Magha (constellations); she is borne (to her husband's house) in the Arjunī (constellations).

    The constellation, more usually known under the name of maghāḥ q. v. E. agha (sin &c.)

    The Magha asterism has Regulus as its marker. In this case, the comment is probably accurate, since Arjuni does sound like a stellar reference.


    Abhaya is not clear as a star, when we are given Simsumara first from Taittiriya Aranyaka:


    Quote ….dharmo mūrdhānam brahmottarāhanuḥ yajño’dharā viṣṇurhṛdayam samvathsaraḥ prajananam aśvinau pūrvapādāvatrirmadhyam mitrāvaruṇavaparapadau agniḥ pucchasya prathamam kāṇḍam tata indrastatḥ prajāpatirabhayam caturtham| sa vā eṣa divyaśśākvaraśśiśumāraḥ…| …….dhruvastvamasi dhruvasya kṣitamasi tvam
    bhūtānāmadhipatirasi tvam bhūtānām śreṣṭho’si tvām bhūtānyupaparyāvartante namaste namaḥ……śiśukumārāya namaḥ||


    (TA. II.19.1) ….Dharma is the forehead, Brahma is the upper jaw, Yajña is the lower jaw, Viṣṇu is the heart, Samvatsara is the genital, Aśvins are the forelegs, Atri is the center, Mitra and Varuṇa are the hind legs. Agni is the first stem of the tail, then Indra, then Prajāpati and then Abhayam is the fourth. This is the shining celestial Śiśumāra…….You are fixed (dhruva), you are the place of Dhruva……You are the Lord of Beings; you are the best among them. (All) Beings go around you. Namaste!…… salutations to you the boy-child. The commentary of Sāyaṇa clearly mentions that this hymn is to be used in the evening, turning towards the north and looking at the dhruva-maṇḍala, for meditating on the Cosmic Brahma

    Brahmopasthānamantra


    is the name of this for evening meditation.

    The Titirri school is intriguing because it remembers the Vaikhanasas, and says the Vatarasanas are Aruna Ketus. It is the source of Mahanarayana Upanishad. Yaska is associated with this lineage.


    If we are not yet sure what to trust about a star, we are able to trace "Abhaya" as an aspect of "holy light":


    Garga asks Indra to deliver us to:

    svarvaj jyotir abhayaṃ svasti |


    Kurma asks Indra for:

    abhayaṃ jyotir


    Gaya Plata uses it a little differently:


    “Ādityas, to whom, Manu, having kindled the fire, offered the first sacrifice with (reverent) mind,(aided) by the seven ministrant priests, do you bestow upon us prosperity, free from peril; provide for us pleasant paths easy to travel for our well-being.”


    yebhyo hotrām prathamām āyeje manuḥ samiddhāgnir manasā sapta hotṛbhiḥ | ta ādityā abhayaṃ śarma yacchata sugā naḥ karta supathā svastaye ||


    What we see there is generic--"Manu and Seven Sages", from the first rite, and Samiddha Agni. This Agni is relevant to the Apri Hymns, and, for instance, in the words of Vasistha:


    I invoke, first, Dadhikrā, then the Aśvins, the Dawn, the kindled Agni...

    dadhikrāṃ vaḥ prathamam aśvinoṣasam agniṃ samiddham


    This is a powerful hymn that includes Varuna's Babhru. So, from the Veda, we would say that "abhaya" is recognizable as a quality of the best kind of light, the same subject of Astrology, Jyotir. You could perhaps reason that Dhruva is intended as the receptacle of this light, contemplating the line that refers to Svar Loka.





    From the next Iyengar section, the bridal hymn is:


    60 dhruvakṣitiḥ dhruvayoniḥ dhruvamasi dhruvatasthitam | tvam nakṣatrāṇām methyasi sa mām pāhi pṛtanyataḥ || Ekāgni (I.9)

    Quote Here the quality of Dhruva as a star is said to be fixed. Dhruva is praised as the methī or the fixed column to which the nakṣatras are bound.

    Śiśumāra, the 14th star counted from the head and placed on its tail being the fixed Dhruva or the Pole Star. The effect of precession on the sky picture was also felt as recorded in the Maitrāyaṇīya text, where Dhruva was observed to be drifting away from its original position. Notwithstanding such natural effects, the formality of showing the star Dhruva has continued in Hindu marriages over centuries coming down in the same form to this day as a ritual, even though everyone may not know which star was originally invoked by the prescribed hymns. But the orthodox successors to the Vedic tradition have preserved this information quite correctly as will be seen later.

    Maitrayana Upanishad says it is "drifting", not where to. Later, he means the correspondence in Brahmanda Purana:

    Quote Listen to this explanation of mine which is real and observable but mystifying people. He, who is at the tail of the 14 stars looking like a śiśumāra; Dhruva the son of Uttānapāda, has become the main pivot of the pole in the sky. Verily, he rotates the sun, the moon and the planets continuously. The stars follow him who is himself circling like a wheel.

    His (Śiśumāra’s) upper jaw should be understood as Uttānapāda. Yajña (Kratu) is known as the lower jaw and Dharma as the head. At the heart is Nārāyaṇa (Sādhya). The twin Aśvins occupy the forelegs while Varuna and Aryamā are at the hind legs. Samvatsara is the genital and Mitra occupies the seat. In the tail are Agni, Mahendra, Mārīca-Kaśyapa and Dhruva. The (previous) four stars of the Śiśumāra never set. It is remembered that Dhruva is the last star after Agni, Indra and Kaśyapa.

    Well, if anything, the first change that was made was from Thuban to Kochab:


    Kochab was known as the pole star and sometimes called Polaris between 1700 BCE and 300 CE.

    The star we call Polaris did not become the North Star until about AD 500.


    In this case, the newer, Puranic name is probably the modern, current version, since Uttanapada is:

    the star Β in the little bear


    which is Kochab.

    That name is not present in the Aranyaka, where it may be that Abhaya = Kochab, the Pole Star.

    Rather than forcing the literature to be earlier--taking it to mean Thuban, as Iyengar seems to do--it seems to us that Astrology has had to re-define "Simsumara" as well as "Dhruva", to account for *three* pole stars, or two changes of them.


    The first change was probably concurrent with the outset of Vedic events, and the loss of any knowledge of whatever IVC was saying.

    Norelius 2016 finds the Father--Son relationship of the Pole Star from Kochab to Polaris. He disagrees with Liebert who extends it to Thuban and the Dhruvadarsana of making a bride face the star, adapted from indigenous rites. So i. e. the "late linguistic view" simply dismisses such connections as impossible. The rite per se could go back to Draco.

    S Kundu tells us there is an "Uttanapada Sukta" in Mandala Ten. We then find this probably means X.72:


    the term uttanapAda in yoga means with feet upwards, but is also
    used for a woman giving birth, the mother goddess often depicted in early
    sculptures.

    said by that reviewer, who takes WD with a grain of salt. It may also refer to the Renuka form. In another translation, it is a region. In the Puranas, the region would be of Vishnu and Ganga. In the Brahmanda, Uttanapada appears with the generation of Prasuti and Akuti, which is the Vyuha, or subtle divine creation prior to the material world.

    It is good to get the hint because it did not auto-link--Brhaspati X.72 is what I started to call "Deva Creation". It is Brhaspati with Laukya Aditi Daksayani. There, we get the interpretations:


    “In the first age of the gods the existent was born of the non-existent; after that the quarters (of the horizon) were born, and after them the upward-growing (trees).”

    “The earth was born from the upward-growing (tree), the quarters were born from the earth; Dakṣa was born from Aditi, and afterwards Aditi from Dakṣa.”


    WD:

    3. in the earliest age of the gods, existence was born out of
    non-existence. after this the quarters of the sky were born from her
    who crouched with legs spread.

    4. the earth was born from her who crouched with legs spread, and from
    the earth the quarters of the sky were born. from aditi, dakSa was
    born, and from dakSa aditi was born.


    The Purana refers to Vishnu "poking a hole" by sticking his toenail upwards. This is already from Visnupada, his highest step, or Svar Loka, he then apparently inverts to reach upwards. So "Zenith" or "Axis Mundi" or just "polar axis" may be appropriate here. It happens to go with "Four Quarters" quite well.

    So, we still have a lot of people saying this is about "incest", or, the hymns could not possibly have been composed until some arbitrarily later point. Something definitely had to happen due to Draco falling out of its heavenly alignment. This could easily have been "by way of adaption", rather than, say, smashing some village's Sacred Gnomon and forcing them to repent.


    Now, because we are not on that much of a bigoted "stamp out your false deities" binge, I do not think the explanation lies in an attitude of superiority, it means the ca. 3,000 B. C. E.-apropos calendar is extinct.



    This "common problem" is roughly summarized in Astronomy, Vedic and Sumerian:


    Quote We find in RV 9. 114, 3 the verse: “there are 7 regions with their different
    suns.” This verse is a reference to the planets as understood by the scholars.

    Well, this is the end of Book Nine, in a tiny hymn right after Kasyapa gives advice to Kasyapa. And it says seven "diso", that is, "directions", and if anything, "different suns" are the same sun at different times. This study is very clear that Indian timekeeping uses Naksatras, not the Zodiac, and it does not technically need the Zodiac, because its main teaching is in fact about the Same Sun at Different Times. Man is qualitatively the Sun at the speed of thought. The Veda says the wise contemplate Vishnu in his highest step, where there is no night, the sun is ever present.


    These may be more accurate assessments, but, of what, we are not told the Suktas:


    Quote We find the planets in
    the verse “may these 5 bulls, which stand on the high full in the middle of the mighty heaven”
    are said to be a picture of the 5 planets in form of a bull. In the Rig Veda bulls draw the chariot of
    Usa, the Goddess of Heaven. In the Rig Veda we read on the 34 lights of the heaven, which are
    symbolic in the 34 ribs of the sacrificial horse and refer to the sun, the moon, the 5 planets and the
    27 lunar asterisms.

    Okay. There, we get to a good point, where New Year's Sacrifice is of a Horse, or, of decapitating a man or deity. Although "Makha" is such a deity in later commentaries, here he is in the words of Vedic Prajapati:


    “Let no mortal hear the sound of the effused Soma; drive off the dog that sacrifices not as the Bhṛgus drove off Makha.”


    We find an error:


    Quote The etymology of the Sanskrit word kurma is an unsolved
    problem until now. This word is not attested in the Rig Veda.

    It is not found as an animal anywhere in the environment, but, there is Kurma Gartsamada.

    This is closer to a correct version of the Vernal Equinox:


    Quote Rohini, the red is female and can be identified with the Aldebaran, the large
    red star Alpha Tauri, which was closed to the equinoctial point in 3054 b. C.

    The Pleiades were closest to the equinoctial
    point around 2240 b. C. Through the equinoctial procession, the position of the asterism marking the
    vernal equinox with its heliacal rising slowly changed. Because of this the ancient Indian astronomer
    had revised the list of the naksatra and makes it start with Asvini (Gemini), the constellation closest
    to the vernal equinoctial point from 655 b. C. to 300 a. C.

    Except Asvini is not Gemini.

    It has an interesting table about backtracking the equinox through the Naksatras. Otherwise, this is kind of dense and awkward.


    Reviewing the primary marker of ancient astronomy:


    Quote When the Sun and the
    Moon are conjunct with the star Dhanista star, Jupiter also transits in Dhanista naksatra and this
    event is clearly visible in the sky, that is when begin simultaneously the yuga, the lunar month
    Magha, the bright fortnight, the season winter and the northern journey of the sun. The text of Sage
    Lagadha speaks clearly of the star Dhanista, which is taken as the star β Delphini with its present
    name.

    Jupiter has a five year transit, so the Yuga is five years, although the description is an ideal triple conjunction, which doesn't always work out perfectly.

    Neither does the Agricultural interpretation, where it discusses rainfall, if we expect exactly one out of every five years to be "inadequate", then we will know this is kind of rough and only approximate.

    The intention is that it means five years, from which, it would be obvious that you would have to observe a *lot* of five year Yugas before you could really suggest an improvement.

    Notice it is less interested in making the equinox, etc., an absolutely fixed annual event--it is more interested in things that are like hands of a clock. A bit like Jupiter as the hour hand, the sun is minutes, the moon seconds.


    Dhanistha is not "a star":


    It consists of α, β, γ, δ, and ε-Delphini (called shishumAra or simshUmAra (শিশুমার, শিংশুমার), words meaning ‘the gangetic porpoise’; the first of these words seems to mean ‘killer of babies’, but since the latter is found even in the earliest texts in India, the derivation ought to be considered uncertain).


    There, you see that simsumara merely translates "dolphin". The dolphin asterism is small without Indian names for its individual stars. So in this case we are translating the myth of Poseidon. The constellation is almost on the celestial equator. Our polar axis will never rotate anywhere near it. The text that has just defined Dhanistha as Delphini has classified Simsumara completely differently. Its original meaning probably is "crocodile", not as "child eater", but because the adult male develops an enlarged snout, i. e., a phallic symbol, which perhaps literally works for sniffing out more pheromones. The Gangetic porpoise may have a snout, but, Garhial is the one on IVC seals. We think it is the same animal, migrating off of the Draco asterism, onto parts of the Dipper or Bear asterisms. In this case it may still resemble itself if Kochab moves off the pole and modern Polaris enters. Especially if we think Polaris is the "son" of Kochab. Because observation would again force us to dethrone the "elder gods", this is the area where the Purana *can* update the Aranyaka.



    This will rejoin our theme. Ayasya says of Brhaspati X.68:


    so has he united husband and wife

    dampatī anakti bṛhaspate



    This hymn has five references to a mystical battle with Vala. It even tells the emanation of Naksatras:



    The protecting (deities) have decorated the heaven with constellations as (men decorate) a brown horse with golden trappings...


    It has a primitive, hence, old, appearance. No more battles or other characters. It focuses Indra II, sandwiched by Dampati and Naksatras.


    One might argue it means "constellations" rather than "Mansions of the Moon". The Rg Veda mentions a few Lunar Mansions; Atharva Veda lists the full set. However, when we boil down Astrology to the basics, it is not that hard, and we can be sure people had reason to read the stars for at least a millennium prior.



    Genetic Fit



    This is significant because the difficulty is that the scientists are going to flip their results to Witzel and Parpola for the human story.

    Ironically, the closest thing to support for Aryan Invasion Theory is the fact that Steppe DNA shows up in Caste Brahmins.

    We are saying these are not the Vedic Rishis.

    So Talageri is breaking new ground, at least, in the sense that he wants the Western anthropology people pushed out of the way, he would like to get rid of this persistent approach. I see it filtered into the newspapers and so on, lots of Indians still ride along with this thing that is unwashable supremacy, oh, the Europeans must have given you everything. What India knows is what the Europeans have taught it. That Arya Samaj Yajur Veda was horrendous, not the mantras, the translation. It is like they were playing God Save the Queen the whole way through.




    Again to quickly reflect on external sources for comparison, if we compare this physical history to that of Sumeria:


    Quote After thousands of years of nomadic and semi-nomadic seasonal settlements created by hunter-gatherers, some settlements in southern Mesopotamia were settled all year round. From around 4000 BCE there appears to have been a relatively rapid development in agriculture, culture, and technology.

    By 3500 BCE agriculture was no longer so labor-intensive, and people could direct their attention to other occupations. Urbanization and specialization in the manufacturing of goods such as ceramics, farm implements, boat building, and other crafts led to cities being built around large religious centers by 3000 BCE.


    From around 2200 BCE there appears to have been long dry spells resulting in droughts that affected most of the Ancient Near East. This climate change lasted for several centuries. It was a time of great unrest accompanied by large groups of people moving from one country to the next. Dynasties and empires fell, and when things settled again, new empires arose.

    The end came when the Elamites conquered the already weakened Sumer in 2004 BCE.

    They continue to waltz to Bactria. Sumeria contributed "its own kind of language", and, otherwise, the timetable appears fairly similar to normal.

    It is still a place with no genetics. In hopes to trace it in living Marsh Arabs:


    Evidence of genetic stratification ascribable to the Sumerian development was provided by the Y-chromosome data where the J1- branch reveals a local expansion, almost contemporary with the Sumerian City State period that characterized Southern Mesopotamia.


    There is only a little bit available, which comes from a suggestion of Africa:


    Quote A few Sumerian mtDNA samples have been tested and include haplogroups L2a1, R, H14a, J1a1 and U4. The presence of hg L is surely a sign that E1b1b (probably E-M123) was already present among ancient Sumerians.

    Sumerian mtDNA samples have been tested and they carried haplogroups L2a1, which is the most extensive pan-African haplotype.

    The common ancestors of Dravidians and Sumerians began to migrate out of Africa by 3000 BC from the C-Group culture of Nubia Kush. They first settled in Iran and from here expanded into Central Asia and the Indus Valley.

    Using boats the Ku****es moved down ancient waterways many now dried up, to establish new towns in Asia and Europe after 3500 BC. The Ku****es remained supreme around the world until 1400-1200 BC. During this period the Hua (Chinese) and Indo-European (I-E) speakers began to conquer the Ku****es whose cities and economies were destroyed as a result of natural catastrophes which took place on the planet between 1400-1200 BC.

    That sounds a little late, conjoined with a weak linguistic argument:

    Quote The major Anatolian Ku****e tribes were the Kaska and Hatti speakers

    And we get a quick comparison of Hurrian, Sanskrit, and Tamil:


    Brown babru babhru pukar
    Grey parita palita paraitu
    Reddish pinkara pingala puuval


    It sounds like the Tamil Sumerians came from Nubia after 3,500 B. C. E., in that view. I don't know anything about that country, or, perhaps, Meroe, I don't see why you couldn't say it had influence, and I also don't see it as "source" single-handedly.


    If Sumeria had U4:

    During the Neolithic period U4 stands out by its absence from the hundreds of samples tested to date, except for one Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic sample (c. 3250 BCE) from Catalonia and one from Portugal (3000 BCE).

    Interestingly, Fernández et al. (2005) also found two U4 individuals (including one U4a2b) in Sumerian city of Mari in Syria dating from the Early Dynastic Period (2900-2700 BCE), just after the Uruk collapse, which could have been caused by early Indo-European incursions into the Near East.


    for this strand:


    Its distribution is associated with the population bottleneck due to the Last Glacial Maximum.

    U4 has been found in ancient DNA, and it is relatively rare in modern populations


    For example, it is almost non-existent in Kurds, but found in Sami. The other survivors are Siberians.

    Some recent archaeological evidence suggests the possibility that human arrival in the Americas may have occurred prior to the Last Glacial Maximum more than 30,000 years ago. Homo sapiens were discovered in the high latitude northern hemisphere 30,000 years ago, however they did not migrate south until almost 15,000 years ago.

    The maximum ice/worst conditions are estimated at 25,000 to 18,000 years ago. Europe had two cultures, which look like Charlemagne's first Kingdom and the Byzantine Empire. U4 is believed to originate between 21,000 and 14,000 years ago. U4 is also preserved in the Kalash people (current population size 3,700) a unique tribe among the Indo-Aryan peoples of Pakistan where U4 (subclade U4a1) attains its highest frequency of 34%.


    So the Sumerians are the Laplander Indo-Aryan Paks. That one is a signature. Their other designation is much broader:


    The root level of H14 is found in northwestern Europeans, such as in Ireland.

    Its subclade H14a is encountered among such populations as Armenians from Turkey, Sardinians from Italy, and Persian Jews and Iraqi Jews. The branch H14a2 is present among Romani people from Spain and Croats and is common in Iran.

    It has numerous "b" lineages all over the place, very common. The closest thing to Sumeria is Armenia. H is thought to have originated in Syria, perhaps shortly before the Glacial Maximum, similar to U4.

    If we compare the samples we were just given, the groups indicate, L, pan-African, R, Afro-emigrational, H, Armenian, J, their own local or Marsh Arab, and U, Kalash of Chitral, whose xenophobic practice has been compared to that of ancient Greece, but they are much closer to the Vedic mythology. The Kalash have fascinated anthropologists due to their unique culture compared to the rest in that region.

    They are not Greek, they say they came from the south, but:


    The study, however, found that they shared a significant portion of genetic drift with MA-1, a 24,000 year-old Paleolithic Siberian hunter-gatherer...


    They have *no* Steppe ancestry. Their paternal lineage has south Asian. Their maternal lineage is "pure" in the sense of being U and just a few other things from the north. The study found they are closest to Mal'ta Buret Boy.

    That is astounding.



    Their language is Dardic similar to Khowar:


    Khowar, in many respects [is] the most archaic of all modern Indian languages, retaining a great part of Sanskrit case inflexion, and retaining many words in a nearly Sanskritic form.

    A comparison of the three:


    *cāturmāsya

    chawmos

    Khowar "chitrimas"


    The historical religious practices of neighbouring Pahāṛi peoples of Nepal, Kashmir, Uttarakhand, and Himachal Pradesh are similar to those of the Kalash people in that they "ate meat, drank alcohol, and had shamans". In addition, the Pahāṛi people "had rules of lineage exogamy that produced a segmentary system closely resembling the Kalasha one".


    They certainly have a para-Vedic New Year:


    Quote The main Chaumos ritual takes place at a Tok tree, a place called Indra's place, "indrunkot", or "indréyin".

    Mahandeu had cheated Balumain from superiority, when all the gods had slept together (a euphemism) in the Shawalo meadow; therefore, he went to the mythical home of the Kalash in Tsiyam (tsíam), to come back next year like the Vedic Indra (Rigveda 10.86). If this had not happened, Balumain would have taught humans how to have sex as a sacred act. Instead, he could only teach them fertility songs used at the Chaumos ritual. He arrives from the west, the Bashgal valley, in early December, before solstice, and leaves the day after. He was at first shunned by some people, who were annihilated. He was, however, received by seven Devalog and they all went to several villages, such as Batrik village, where seven pure, young boys received him whom he took with him. Therefore, nowadays, one only sends men and older boys to receive him. Balumain is the typical culture hero. He told people about the sacred fire made from junipers, about the sowing ceremony for wheat that involved the blood of a small goat, and he asked for wheat tribute (hushak) for his horse. Finally, Balumain taught how to celebrate the winter festival. He was visible only during his first visit, now he is just felt to be present.

    The men must be divided into two parties: the pure ones have to sing the well-honored songs of the past, but the impure sing wild, passionate, and obscene songs, with an altogether different rhythm. This is accompanied by a 'sex change': men dress as women, women as men (Balumain also is partly seen as female and can change between both forms at will).[27]

    At this crucial moment the pure get weaker, and the impure try to take hold of the (very pure) boys, pretend to mount them "like a hornless ram", and proceed in snake procession. At this point, the impure men resist and fight. When the "nagayrō" song with the response "han sarías" (from *samrīyate 'flows together', CDIAL 12995) is voiced, Balumain showers all his blessings and disappears. He gives his blessings to seven boys (representing the mythical seven of the eight Devalog who received him on arrival), and these pass the blessings on to all pure men.

    And there are some beliefs which are fairly congruent:


    Quote Certain deities were revered only in one community or tribe, but one was universally revered as the Creator: The ancient Hindu god Yama Râja called imr'o in Kâmviri. There is a creator god, appearing under various names, no longer as Father Heaven, but as lord of the nether world and of heaven: Imra (*Yama Rājan), Māra 'death' (Nuristani).

    There also is a general pattern of belief in mountain fairies Suchi (súči), who help in hunting and killing enemies, and the Varōti (called vātaputrī in Sanskrit), their violent male partners of Suchi, reflecting the later Vedic (and typical medieval Kashmiri) distinction between Apsaras and Gandharva.

    All we got was a list of findings, so, we don't know if a special U4 individual was found in Sumeria, or, if it represents a mixture into the population. It is not surprising they are 4/5 African and local, which suits an article promoting Nubia, but the remaining 1/5 throws a very unusual issue for further review.


    I was able to find this remark:


    EDIT : the Sumerian mtDNA was from the Syrian city of Mari, not from Sumer itself, and from the Late Sumerian period.


    Ok. The sample is still rare:


    Haplogroup U4 rarely exceeds 2% of the population of the Middle East and is completely absent from the Druzes of Syria, Lebanon and Palestine.


    The physical fact does not always determine language, etc., and this was probably the wrong idea for Mari:


    Although the pre-Amorite periods were characterized by heavy Sumerian cultural influence, Mari was not a city of Sumerian immigrants but a Semitic-speaking nation with a dialect similar to Eblaite.

    The first and second kingdoms were heavily influenced by the Sumerian south. The society was led by an urban oligarchy...


    It was destroyed by Sargon, then eventually rebuilt as an Akkadian town, which has 25,000 tablets. There is no shortage of material about this epoch, its connections, although research is still foggy on:


    Lugal Mer


    Sumerian for "king" typically used as an epithet, here with a universal storm deity.

    Most likely, the sample is the two individuals mentioned as "early dynastic period, 2,900-2,700". This means Early Dynasty of Mesopotamia, from which, Mari did not "grow", but was spontaneously built, with a canal, i. e. based on Sumerian irrigation. One of the finds is U4a2b, which would be a descendant or later than the U4a1 of the Kalash. Comparatively:


    Remains identified as subclade U4a2 are associated with the Corded Ware culture, which flourished 5200 to 4300 years ago in Eastern and Central Europe and encompassed most of continental northern Europe from the Volga River in the east to the Rhine in the west.


    That happens to be...the same time frame.

    Corded Ware is too broad and has no written records, and, it does not have Yamnaya male DNA. Of its descendants:


    Many cultural similarities between the Sintashta/Andronovo culture, the Nordic Bronze Age and the people of the Rigveda have been detected.

    It had an eastward influence, slightly north of the Steppes, towards the Urals. Sintashta has the oldest discovered chariots. Much of Sintashta metal was destined for export to the cities of the Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) in Central Asia. It has been found as far as China. Among its remains:


    The two females carried U2e1e and U2e1h respectively.

    Narasimhan et al. 2019 analyzed the remains of several individuals associated with the Sintashta culture. mtDNA was extracted from two females buried at the Petrovka settlement. They were found to be carrying subclades of U2 and U5. The remains of fifty individuals from the fortified Sintastha settlement cemetery of Kamennyi Ambar-5 was analyzed. This was the largest sample of ancient DNA ever sampled from a single site.

    The majority of mtDNA samples belonged to various subclades of U...

    It is fairly distinct:





    And over the Iron Age, its genetics represent nearly half of everyone out to Mongolia.

    It is just the "funeral" arrangements that in one person's opinion emulate the Rg Veda.

    Radiocarbon dating indicates that the Sintashta culture dates to between c. 2200 and 1750 BCE. The preceding Abashevo culture was already marked by endemic intertribal warfare; intensified by ecological stress and competition for resources in the Sintashta period. This drove the construction of fortifications on an unprecedented scale and innovations in military technique such as the invention of the war chariot.

    Sintashta individuals and Corded Ware individuals both had a relatively higher ancestry proportion derived from Central Europe, and both differed markedly in such ancestry from the population of the Yamnaya Culture and most individuals of the Poltavka Culture that preceded Sintashta in the same geographic region.

    Andronovos and others *do* show Yamnaya mixture.

    That is again like a sandwich, around 2,000 B. C. E., going east, Yamnayas mix into Bactria, whereas Sintashtas mix into Mongolians.

    Corded Ware has been sought as the Ur-language of Europe; Sintashta is considered the "first" Indo-Iranian or Aryan language by many.

    Kalash 30/70 Sintashta/IVC.


    From a corresponding table with additional columns for "Andamese" and "East Asian":


    Kalash 71% 30% -1%

    NorthIndianBrahmin 46% 30% 24%

    Bengali 46% 13% 30% 11%

    Munda 19% 3% 62% 17%


    There is a 2024 pre-print of a more robust, 2,700+ member Indian genetic survey. We can't see the results yet. We see the reason for it is what we already know:


    India has been underrepresented in whole genome sequencing studies.


    In most of the literature, Haplogroup U is simply called "European". It takes a monkey wrench to show us that, well, partly so, but it has another track from Siberia or Turania headed south. Very simple diagram that we can't hotlink. It is worth checking out the above.


    "Sumerian" is still up in the air, I guess, unless we find something convincing to say the samples were not from locals.

    Botai ca. 3,000 B. C. E. is not mixed with Yamnaya, but *does* descend from Latvia, particularly along R1b-M73 (male Y-DNA).


    U4 is in Xinjiang, Andronovo, and Botai:


    U4a1, R1b1, and U2e3 were observed in the Botai culture...


    They are the Latvian Kalash, roughly speaking.



    It is using, I suppose, the first tweak on U4, and some of the "next generations" are very recent, 4-2,000 B. C. E.. It is not exclusive to these groups, but, proportionately, is very high. That is, the Kalash have in fact some of the "purest" genetics you can find, they are 34% the female equivalent of Mal'ta Buret Boy, mixed with Indian men. Their direct relatives are rare, such as the Botai. Their descendants are rare, including Syrian or possibly Sumerian. Sintashta women are something like their cousins.

    This degree of information, of course, does not appear on Wiki. You see everything about U5, but we are looking at the extremely rare U4a1 and the single specimen of Basal U.




    Here is at least half a map of U4.








    The largest ancient DNA study is based in IVC using over 500 individuals:


    Quote IVC were the primary ancestors of most living Indians.

    Eleven such individuals found at sites in Iran and Turkmenistan were likely involved in interchange with the Harappan civilization. In fact, some of these outlier individuals were buried with artifacts culturally affiliated with South Asia, strengthening the case that they were connected to the IVC.

    “This made us hypothesize that these samples were migrants, possibly even first-generation migrants from South Asia,” Narasimhan says. The IVC genome from Rakhigarhi shows strong genetic similarities to the 11 genetic outliers in the large study of ancient humans, supporting the idea that these individuals ventured from the Harappan civilization to the Middle East.

    That's very clear, "outliers" represent someone who moved from one place to another, not a mix. It physically confirms Indians moving around in these times. If we arrange standard information about Russia or Turania to India:



    Ancient DNA classified as belonging to the U* mitochondrial haplogroup has been recovered from human skeletal remains found in Western Siberia, which have been dated to c. 45,000 years ago--the Ust'-Ishim man fossil of Siberia, dated ca. 45,000 years old, belongs to haplogroup R* (formerly classified as U*). R6-7-8 are prevalent in Kolarian (Munda, Khasi) Indians.

    Haplogroup U2b2 has been found in the remains of a 4500 year old female excavated from the Rakhigarhi site of Indus Valley civilisation, in present day state of Haryana, India.

    The overall frequency of U2 in South Asia is largely accounted for by the group U2i in India whereas haplogroup U2e, common in Europe, is rare; given that these lineages diverged approximately 50,000-years-ago. Haplogroup U2 has been found in the remains of a 37,000 and 30,000-year-old hunter-gatherer from the Kostyonki, Voronezh Oblast in Central-South European Russia.

    U9 is in Makran, Yemen, Ethiopia.




    Here again one has to go back another layer to 10,000+ B. C. E.; the IVC had come from Turan, as did the "Ethiopians". That is, you find R in the "Australic Indians", which may be African at 30,000 years of age; and U enters that which we call IVC.

    The Ku****es, for example, did not bring elephants, peacocks, and Zebu to Mesopotamia.

    Going from the article to the large study of South and Central Asia Genetics:


    We find no evidence of Steppe pastoralist–derived ancestry in groups at BMAC sites before 2100 BCE

    Indus Periphery Cline during the flourishing of the IVC. Ancestors of this group formed by admixture ~5400 to 3700 BCE.

    Much of the formation of both the ASI and ANI occurred in the second millennium BCE.

    Steppe ancestry in modern South Asians is primarily from males and disproportionately high in Brahmin and Bhumihar groups.


    The first guess is not quite right:

    Quote An alternative is that this ancestry reflects movement into South Asia from the Iranian plateau of people accompanying the eastward spread of wheat and barley agriculture and goat and sheep herding as early as the seventh millennium BCE and forming early farmer settlements, such as those at Mehrgarh in the hills flanking the Indus Valley (59, 60). However, this is in tension with the observation that the Indus Periphery Cline people had little if any Anatolian farmer–related ancestry, which is strongly correlated with the eastward spread of crop-based agriculture in our dataset. Thus, although our analysis supports the idea that eastward spread of Anatolian farmer–related ancestry was associated with the spread of farming to the Iranian plateau and Turan, our results do not support large-scale eastward movements of ancestry from western Asia into South Asia after ~6000 BCE (the time after which all ancient individuals from Iran in our data have substantial Anatolian farmer–related ancestry, in contrast to South Asians who have very little).

    What they mean by "Iranian Farmer" as of 2019:


    Iranian-related ancestry in South Asia split from Iranian
    plateau lineages >12,000 years ago.


    They determine this split before the older Iranian samples:


    Quote Our evidence that the Iranian-related ancestry in the IVC
    Cline diverged from lineages leading to ancient Iranian
    hunter-gatherers, herders, and farmers prior to their ancestors’
    separation places constraints on the spread of Iranian-related
    ancestry across the combined region of the Iranian plateau
    and South Asia, where it is represented in all ancient and modern genomic data sampled to date. The Beit Cave individual
    dates to 10,000 BCE, definitively before the advent of farming
    anywhere in Iran, which implies that the split leading to the Iranian-related component in the IVC Cline predates the advent of
    farming there as well (Figure 3). Even if we do not consider the
    results from the low-coverage Beit Cave individual, our analysis
    shows that the Iranian-related lineage present in the IVC Cline
    individuals split before the date of the 8000 BCE Ganj Dareh
    individuals, who lived in the Zagros mountains of the Iranian
    plateau before crop farming began there around 7000–6000
    BCE. Thus, the Iranian-related ancestry in the IVC Cline descends from a different group of hunter-gatherers from the ancestors of the earliest known farmers or herders in the western
    Iranian plateau.

    While after this point, the Iranians are "mixed":


    Quote This
    includes western Zagros farmers (59% Anatolian farmer-related ancestry at 6000 BCE at Hajji Firuz) and eastern
    Alborsz farmers (30% Anatolian farmer-related ancestry at
    4000 BCE at Tepe Hissar).

    For both cases, Anatolia and Yamnaya, they only find a trickle into India after 2,000 B. C. E..

    They are great geneticists who should not be plastering linguistic conclusions onto the "trickle".

    The main Rakhigarhi sample turned out to be U2b2, and, there is a good flowchart including the Ethiopian branch.

    Although there were humans at 100,000 years, we do not expect survivors of this population (Soanian). Almost all you can study about it are tools. Or Ramapithecus ca. 12.2 my.



    Living humans in India are mostly built of:


    30,000 B. C. E., Haplogroup R, Andamans, Kols, Kasi, Korku, likely related to Africa

    10,000 B. C. E., Haplogroup U, Turanian, into IVC

    2,000 B. C. E., "North and South Indians"


    The main difference is towards the east, and, historically, none of that was part of India until starting around the 600s. Out there you see a mix of Australic and Oriental.

    For Nepal, we get a minor response on the Limbu:


    Quote According to a survey by Chinese explorer Wang, many Tibetans, including East Eurasian genetic matriarchs, invaded Nepal from Tibet around 6,000–5700 years ago, primarily through Kodari and Rasuwa (Wang et al., 2012).

    Many people who entered Nepal from Tibet via Kodari and Rasuwa around 6,000-5,700 years ago spoke the Tibeto-Burman language family. According to academics, Austro-Asiatic and Dravidian-speaking people lived in Nepal before the Tibeto-Burman language family arrived (UpadhyayRegmi, 1990). People from the Austro-Asiatic language family lived in Nepal before the Tibeto-Burman and Indo-European families. They relocated to the south for the time being. The Satar (Santhal) and Munda populations and languages are the last survivors or representations of the Austro-Asiatic language.

    So, the Munda don't mix much.

    From a few Limbu who submitted for testing, their ancestry is predominantly conditioned by:


    China, Vietnam, Korea, Mongolia.


    Their view is that they were thrust back by other Kirats and then Indians. "Kirat" is perhaps an umbrella for "foreign, Mongolic".


    I admire this, but, it does not interface until the time of Buddhism.


    Looking at older Sanskrit connections, someone rounded up a collection of "swim":


    Sanskrit: प्लवते (plavate)
    Old Church Slavonic: плавати (plavati)
    Slovene: plávati
    Ukrainian: пла́вати (plávaty)
    Russian: пла́вать (plávatʹ)
    Old Polish: pławać, spławiać
    Slovak: plávať


    to which we might add Pali:

    plavati : (plav + a) floats; moves quickly; swims.


    As written, it is a case or conjugation of Plava.



    For some reason, they have added more subjects for "Vispati":


    Sanskrit: विश्व (víśva, víśvaḥ)
    Avestan: vispa
    Old Persian: 𐎻𐎿 (vi-s /visa/)
    Lithuanian: visas, viska
    Prussian: wissa, visi
    Latvian: viss
    Polabian: vis
    Old East Slavic: вьсь (vĭsĭ)
    Polish: wszy-, wszech- (from *vsih)
    Bulgarian: вси (vsi)



    This has to be ruminated. No, of course we can't say this means they were all Agni devotees. We find the tiny community of Kalash who appear to be Turanian mixed with Indian. And what they do is, I would contend, similar to "a practice of Indra mantras" *without* the Soma Offering as taught by the Rishis. Therefor I would say the Rishis arose in a general conversation, which, indeed, could have been fairly similar across that whole language base.


    These particular genes simply have not been researched. It is, of course, known and mentioned such as in a report that yielded a U4a graphic with only Europeans.

    It shows up in a test for an American man who up to that point in his life was black. Now his Mitochondrial Eve was a European woman.

    It gets some data on a study on Slavs 2008:


    Quote In addition, an ancient connection between the Caucasus/Europe and India has been revealed by analysis of haplogroup R1 diversity, with a split between the Indian and Caucasus/European R1a lineages occurring about 16,500 years ago.

    This appears to indicate an early migration:


    Quote It should be noted that haplogroup R1 was described for the first time in Adygei from the northern Caucasus.

    Meanwhile, the complete sequencing of R1 mtDNAs suggests a deep split between the more ancient 16278–16311 R1 branch and the R1a subcluster, about 28,300 ± 4,900 YBP (fig. 2). A second split (about 16,450 ± 4,100 YBP) is seen between the Indian haplotype C134 and the R1a1 subcluster. Both R1 types are present in Adygei population of the northern Caucasus (Macaulay et al. 1999), thus suggesting that R1 evolution occurred in the Caucasus area, from where these lineages have extended in different directions.

    To date, only one complete mtDNA sequence belonging to this clade has been published from the Brahmin population of India.

    U4a1 in Europe:

    ∼12,000–19,000 years before present

    The coalescence time estimate for U4a1 complete genomes was 14,650 ± 2,400 YBP.


    compared to U4a2:


    6,400 and 8,200 YBP

    the age for U4a2 is only 3,100 ± 880 YBP



    Mal'ta is especially notable for its Culture, which, conceivably, is not that different from a Tengri shaman. The site is dated at around 24,000 ybp.

    What is again notable is that his least-mixed descendants inhabit Mexico to Tierra del Fuego. They are saying this is an occupancy that only began around 15,000 B. C. E., so, there wasn't anyone to mix with.

    From a reviewer who is familiar with it, here is a comment on MA-1:


    Quote The Mal’ta boy, MA-1, carried distinct yDNA R* and mtDNA U* lineages. While both are clearly related to those dominant in Europe and parts of Asia (West, South) nowadays, they are also distinct from any specific dominant lineage today.
    R* (yDNA) is neither R1 nor R2 but another distinct branch of R. This kind of R(xR1, R2) is most rare today and found mostly in and around NW South Asia. Following Wikipedia, this “other R” is found in:

    10.3% among the Burusho
    6.8% among the Kalash
    3.4% among the Gujarati

    Thanks. As you can see, this is the road from the Lapis Lazuli mines to Dwarka. The highest carriers are the inhabitants of Gilgit, Pakistan, such as the Hunza.

    If the Kalash are "part IVC", then, it is hard to say why this would not be Gujarati.

    It must have come from Siberia. The consensus is around 15,000 ybp, there was a "re-colonization from refuge". Mal'ta Buret seems to have been abandoned or ceased by this point. This is when they are saying the North Americans moved South. Similarly, we find that Indians and Ethiopians moved south definitely 8, probably 10,000 years ago, according to the evidence, which means it could have just as easily have been a similar 15,000 ybp exodus from Siberia. Of course, we are not talking about very many people, and they probably didn't go quickly.


    Srnagar stands as a crossroads, because it shows a mix of artifacts from Central Asia to India, possible even south India:


    Carbon dating established that the earliest occupation at the site was dated to before 2,357 BC.


    It is like an IVC outpost that started in pits. The rough estimate is that it was in existence ca. 3,000 B. C. E., but, in essence, can only represent a "reason to settle there", since the IVC people must have migrated straight through, much before this. We think that around 3,000 B. C. E. was "transitional", in terms of urbanization and foreign exchange, there was a "world system", more or less. This site was inhabited until medieval times.

    The Kalash are, I suppose, a bit like the American Indians in the sense that they have mixed less than most other groups. As far as I know, it is their currently-living DNA that has been tested, so, they have nothing really to show a time frame of existence. You could almost say they were un-mixed, presuming that they were originally related to the Gujarati, they already know them, and then what is detected is they are IVC because in India, some mixing has happened with the previous south Indians.

    Here is a huge article on Gravettian culture, in terms of "the world" and what we might call R1 Cattle-herders, who are like the first expansion before the Ice Age. It fails to ask anything about India.



    From the Rg Veda itself, the skimpiest form of proto-history I can detect is that pre-Vedic speech was developed out of friendliness.


    The genetic information is not to me in the least surprising. One of the most difficult, and, I would say, significant confusions in all Sanskrit literature, probably concerns Lake Baikal. There are many meaningless and fruitless ways that the sands of time have obfuscated the Great North Country Uttarakuru:


    ...said to form the Vaikarana of Rigveda and the Vaikarana is often identified with Kashmir.


    What is that? I don't know. It makes inverse sense because, if anything, Kashmir might be a late addition to the Veda. Obviously some IVC people were there. And then we will just smash in to the titans:

    Quote Michael Witzel locates his Uttarakuru in Uttarakhand state. According to a Hindutva apologist Subhash Kak, Uttara Kuru was the Tarim Basin in Xinjiang, China.


    According to some scholars, the above locations however do not seem to be correct since they go against Aitareya Brahmana evidence which clearly states:


    Uttarakuru and Uttaramadra lay beyond Himalaya (pren himvantam janapada Uttarakurva Uttaramadra, VIII.14)

    So, no, it is not from the Rg Veda--it is known to Aitareya. We're just saying he is no expert on the detailed backstory of the Veda. He *does* represent lore that has developed around it. He would seemingly be better informed about how the northern direction was understood, than subtle details that are only in certain mantras.

    In the Ramayana, it is also beyond the "candidate" for Baikal, Vaikhanasa Lake. This is during the "northern search" where it is described about six times.

    Vedic Rishis are certainly claimed to be followers of the Vaisnava Vaikhanasa Agama. If what they say is correct, it would exalt a single Vaikhanasa Rishi. Vaikhānasas claim to be a surviving school of Vedic ritual, the Taittirīya-śākhā of the Kṛṣṇna-yajurveda.


    We already found that no one knows what Saunaka's "Vaikhanasa mantras" are in the Rgvidhana. We do, however, have precise information from Vamra Vaikhanasa X.99, whose current events are the mystical apparatus of Book Ten:


    “The sovereign Indra attacking him overcame the loud-shouting, six- eyed, three-headed Dāsa, and Trita, invigorated by his strength, smote the water-laden (cloud) with his iron-tipped finger.”

    and:


    ...for us he shattered the forts of Nahus when he slew the Dasyus.


    We can imagine the discrepancy if a Rishi appears to attack the sire of the race. You would have a hard time understanding this, and camp in some view or other. The point is that these are not deathfest slaughter genocides, the preference is for "subduing", because it is an exactly similar process that takes place for Gujarat.

    Furthermore, we can estimate this mantra was most likely composed around the time of Sudas. His "latest news" is this difficult confusing thing. The prior events he refers to are Kutsa, Kavi and Atka, Rjisvan Ausija, and Araru from Parucchepa. Implicitly, there would have been a Rishi Vaikhanasa at the time of Divodasa, whom we have nothing from.

    Now, if you want to use the Krsna mentality on this, that is perfect. Rather than "disorganized, random" verses, we have already shown the copying that goes on to Book One via Medhatithi, which is heavily about "Waters". Sukla Yajur Veda is very simple Manu with other Rishis promoting "Waters" as important for Dampati. The strange, copied verses are the same way, except it is more advanced and difficult because Vedic Trisiras is difficult. Again, this does not seem terribly different from the Serpents of Arbuda.

    Because of the sequence, it seems likely that HP was already opened, which makes it possible that Vamra Vaikhanasa is talking about Kashmir.



    So, rather than cross-examining heaps of later texts for the Agama, I would suggest looking into how the above really is woven into the whole Rg Veda in what seems to me a quite brilliant manner.

    There are just a few later ideas that may add some gravity. A couple sections of Brahmanda Purana have Uttarakuru as the place of:


    Samjna


    Pururavas and Urvasi


    Buddhaghosa records a tradition which states that, when Vedic king Mandhata returned to Jambudvipa from his sojourn in the four Mahadipas, there were, in his retinue, a large number of the people of Uttarakuru. They all settled down in Jambudípa, and their settlement became known as Kururattha (Kuru Rashtra). Majjhima Commentary also attests that the people of Kururatha had originally belonged to the Uttarakuru.


    Is it possible Mandhata was the Manu of the Kuru Kingdom by bringing others from anywhere near Lake Baikal?

    We will have to post the geography separately.
    Last edited by shaberon; 24th August 2024 at 07:59.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Map of the World of Speech



    Part of our thesis is that "previous scholarship" could not possibly have been right. It, however, has produced ideas which have either been standardized as blanket assumptions, or, refuted by other theories which in themselves are not any better.

    Because I don't have an answer, when I look at the same sources, I get a vastly different understanding. That is because I am trying to understand it from the inside, on its own terms.


    The Rg Veda certainly reflects a few centuries that produced a fairly solid nation of India, however even the earliest commentaries on this are many centuries later, and rather than adding consistency, they demonstrate that there was not really any knowledge passed down from it. The meaning of the hymns was already gone.


    In reviewing this part, I have become aware that Out-of-India Theory has become a pet of some Hindutva factions. On the other hand, we are able to also find that some people see the same "physical" history as I have been describing.

    I have not tried to directly challenge the OIT spatial layout, other than questioning why one suddenly would choose to accept older western versions of it. This is like the Zoroastrians accepting the Vedic "North Pole" Theory, which I thought was among the poorest excuses of an idea. OIT is at least semi-correct; what I mean by this is that over thirty IVC individuals have been discovered in "outlier" areas. That is, even in presumably pre-Vedic times, India did so much commerce that at times they appear to have moved to client sites. There definitely was something coming "out of India", it just probably wasn't quite in the way OIT says.



    I'm going to add a bit more geography so we have a less crude understanding.

    One tires of "ancient" and "near" and "identified with", and similar types of poor descriptors, particularly when something better is available.


    The physical clues we find help explain why some folklore is accurate, some is quite mistaken, and some is intentionally misleading.

    India is "made", so to speak, of its own migration stream which exited Turan since the end of the Ice Age, ca. 15,000-10,000 B. C. E., which partly mixed with native Australics. Nothing European, Iranian, or Anatolian "entered" until around 1,200 B. C. E., and then, as a minor amount.

    It appears that Afghanistan was also an "Ice Age Refuge", so, there was an important dynamic between Afghanis and this Turan-to-Indus wave. The physical evidence here exceeds the knowledge base of mankind. By now, there is really a complete travel guide on the ordinary Wiki page for Lapis Lazuli:


    Quote Lapis lazuli artifacts, dated to 7570 BC, have been found at Bhirrana, which is the oldest site of Indus Valley civilisation.

    The source is in the region of northeastern Afghanistan, Badakshan. Representing the growth of trade, etc., one finds the northernmost outpost Shortugai founded by IVC ca. 2,000 B. C. E.. A report on the artifacts along with agriculture is fairly clear about trade over distance. Two seals, IVC Rhinoceros and an unidentifiable Ibex.

    Badakshan has been occupied since 30,000 B. C. E. and a later "Goat Cult" such as at Darra e Kur.

    However, in terms of Uttara Kuru, the Great North Country, it is obvious that traffic control on the northern side of those mines would be done by whoever was in charge of Bactria:


    c. 2200–1700 BC

    being the time frame of its kingdom which was rather Elamite. It is also seen as the origin of Zoroastrianism (which features Ibex) around the same time. It is here we find the mixing of Yamnaya genetics, which stop for some five hundred years before reaching India.

    Not a word is said about what happened to it, such as war, but for BMAC:


    Narasimshan et al. (2019) found no essential genetic contributions from the BMAC in later South Asians, suggesting that the Steppe-related ancestry was mediated via other groups.


    A little weird--no one disputes that ancient BMAC traded to India, and they are not mixed. The Steppe ancestry is later, and may, perhaps, indeed be the Brahmin caste. These Bactrian people, somehow or another, have been "kept out". Whether by Mandhata or Divodasa, we cannot specifically say. Andronovo and BMAC were dominant in Tin, although an extensive metallurgical survey doesn't have anything to do with armor and weapons. It is unapparent they had the means to field, for instance, a major invasion of India. Instead:


    Sumerian myths recording wars against the mythical kingdom of Aratta most likely represent real campaigns in Iran for Lapis Lazuli and tin.

    Lagash d. Umma 2525 B. C. E. shows the full panel of military stuff. Unlikely to be the first conflict, but, the first in a series of ever-increasing records of battles. Frequently with Elam.


    We found Vasa Asva and a gift of camels refers to the otherwise unknown Aratva--possibly made of Aratu wood. But Aratta is quite plainly a later name for horse country in Pakistan. Sumerian Aratta is the homeland of Innana. She was summoned by Enmerkar, the inventor of writing, before 3,000 B. C. E.. We would think this is symbolic, as he reigned for 420 years; and the myth inspires new treatments for over a thousand years. The written story of writing is perhaps less informative than the spoken story of speech.

    The Rg Veda contains no such fantastic accounts. It says nothing about giants, or Methuselah-type lifespans; in fact, it contains a prayer to reach a hundred. Even if we try to say some of it is "supernatural", or allegorical, or anything along those lines, none of that is anything other than how going to Heaven works.


    Noting the "country" is not found in Sanskrit until 150 B. C. E.:

    Quote While the regions might have lapis lazuli mines, the stones might have been routed through Araṭṭa (Meluhha speakers and Meluhha merchants), the same way as tin and tin-bronzes were routed along the tin road which extended from Meluhha across the Persian Gulf into Sumer/Elam/Mesopotamia.

    It may be more likely that Sumerian "Aratta" is Akkadian "Meluhha".

    Frawley effervesces with something like an OIT fever:


    In the Rig Veda, the Danavas are called amanusha or unhuman (RV II.11.10) as opposed to human, Manusha.



    Well, in context my response would be that "human" is meaningless or nonsensical here, and more likely it has to do with followers of the "mind, thinking" of a chieftain consecrated by a Rishi.

    He is using "Danu" like Talageri does with "Druhyu". That makes two kinds of OIT explanations telling us how these must be "the people that spread over Persia and Europe", whatever that would be. That is why they are forced to associate it with a much earlier "absolute chronology" of the Veda.


    Without something better, I do not see how Sanskrit and Sumerian Aratta are connected.

    This stuff is a lot more piecemeal than those broad strokes reveal. It has to go through a Krttika and come out mincemeat.

    The "Meluhha" thesis is I think automatically correct but again only to an extent. Not all the interpretations. But the presence of craftsmanship and the fact that Tin ingots were a valuable form of trade, i. e., many regions may have near supplies of Copper, but that is not enough for Bronze, and so for example the Sintashta are thought to have perfected this type of metallurgy.

    They are to the north, and "Meluhha" is the western leg of it, and so far this has pointed at Badakshan without really dealing with it. Unnecessary for Tin.


    Before the Bronze Age, Badakshan was already productive, shipping to India, and to maritime routes of Makran and Gujarat. This is not trivial because lapis was worth more than gold.


    To the south of the mines, the Pakistani highlands are Chitral, which has been represented by basically the same people and para-Sanskrit languages for an indefinite time.

    To their south is the IVC of Balochistan:

    Mehrgarh ca. 7,000-2,500 B. C. E. and Nausharo ca. 3,000-1,900 B. C. E. The Nausharo pottery contains images that could certainly be considered para-Vedic, or compatible with the Sanskrit ethos. Kulli art strongly features the Zebu.


    Comparable to Aratta, some have suggested that east Iranian Jiroft shows the first written script:






    Looks a bit like Senzar. Afghanistan has no other ancient representation other than BMAC and then around 2,000 B. C. E., Avesta and the emergence of Zoroastrianism. The possible difference is that it may have been "already settled", that is, an Ice Age Refuge, which these other migrations moved around and through. A better name for Gandhar is perhaps Helmand, meaning a riverine system. The human-centric name Ariana is thought by the Greeks to have the Indus River as its eastern border; Bactria is its "ornament".

    The Vendidad blames the Devas for bringing Winter, which is, of course, how Arbuda was taken. The Avestan texts certainly do not clearly say they approached the Indus. They do typically say they are against the Turanians.

    It probably is the Vedic time frame, thought to be recorded ca. 2,000-1,500 B. C. E., although it is almost all about westward progress into Iran. In a linguistic sense, Indian Aryas appear to be their adversary.


    Afghani Kandahar is thought to be one of these oldest places, but, it is not the same as what "most researchers" take as Vedic Gandhara, being the headwaters of the Indus in Pakistan--original Kandahar is part of Helmand. The terribly scant knowledge of ancient Kandahar only says that it has IVC and Iranic influences.

    That name is not used locally in Pakistan. "Gandhara Grave Culture" is not apparent until 1,200 B. C. E.; It is this Grave Culture that carries Yamnaya DNA. The archaeological sequence is from Ghalegai 2,400 B. C. E..

    A slightly better description extends to Rock Shelter 3,000 B. C. E., with stylistic changes at 2,500 and 2,000.

    Why, exactly, the Afghanis would import a name from something that is junior to them, in another geographical region, escapes me.

    The absence of a particular Grave Culture until a fairly observable time that is, by all means, post-Vedic in terms of most of the knowledge and events, is self-explanatory.


    What we call "sheep" is an animal that appears to have been selectively bred for wooliness. It is found at the onset of Mehrgarh and Jeitun, who also have similarities in clay figurines. This significantly spread to Kutch, Gujarat, and Himachal Pradesh.

    About all we are told in the Rg Veda is that Gandharins raise prize sheep.

    Chances are it means the Sanskrit country, which probably included Kabul and Kashmir. In one memory of the name or person:


    A son of Śaradvat and a grandson of Druhyu, after whom was named the country Gāndhāra; had choice horses of the Āraṭṭa country.*

    * Matsya-purāṇa 48. 6-7.


    From then, it is known for "horses", not "sheep".

    or:


    Mandhata had a long war with the Druhyu king Angara who ruled over Punjab and finally killed him and conquered his kingdom. Angara’s son Gandhara accepted the suzerainty of Mandhata, moved towards North-West (Afghanistan) and gave his name to that region.



    If we don't claim to have a concrete history prior to Mandhata, and, he is responsible for pinning a Sanskrit name close to the Pak/Afghan regions, this sounds like why he would be recorded in the Rg Veda. It only makes one other association:


    In another place, the best Soma is said to be growing on the
    MUjavat mountains. The MUjavat tribes are identified (Atharvaveda
    V-XXII-5, 7, 8, 14) with the GandhArls.


    Or, they are neighbors, not "identical to". And if we re-think the "late" reference to "Afghanistan", it was I.126 by Kaksivan, which is much like a Danastuti, where, at the end, Bhavya says his wife bangs like a wild weasel, and she:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): romaśā brahmavādinī


    makes some sly remark that her pubic hair is soft like the fleece of a Gandharin ewe. As if he did not know that. She sounds like she's trying to outgrow a pre-pubescent childhood phase, but, this would be meaningless and unnecessary. So it is just a tease. Otherwise, this is not a tribe or province in the Rg Veda. There are far more indications of HP and Gujarat. Usually, when it becomes a "being", "Gandharva" doesn't really discuss geography, although possibly with Pragatha Kanva at the beginning of Book Eight:


    When Sura wounded Etasa, with Vata's rolling winged car.
    Indra bore Kutsa Arjuneya off, and mocked Gandharva. the unconquered One.


    Sayana tells us it is "the Sun". This spelling has numerous entries, and, nothing about it says to me it is a "tribe", although it *may* have had to do with "soma guardians" in the mountains. If we are curious about location, Pragatha comes back in after Trita, exalting Saranyavat and Arjikya country.




    Helmand probably originally triangulated with the neighbors perfectly well all the way to Burnt City of Iran until about 2,300 B. C. E.:

    There were also links between Shahr-i Sokhta I, II, and III periods, and Mundigak III and IV periods, and between the sites of Balochistan and the Indus valley at the end of the 4th millennium, as well as in the first half of the 3rd millennium BC.


    The missing era of Afghanistan:

    The Avesta was composed in Ariana, the earliest name of Afghanistan in the first half of the second millennium BCE (c. 2000-1500 BCE).


    is attributed to Witzel.

    One can see he wants it to be a gateway for the whole Rig Veda to be installed in India by Russians.

    We would say it is "plausible" in the sense that Avestan "may be a little older" than academia is guessed, but, the meaning appears to be these Avestas were the adversaries of the Rishis. That is what we seem to get from their own words. One might expect them to be composed in a similar time frame.

    So if there is a grey period when established neighbors faded, and, what we get coming out is a scripture that appears to dislike the Indians and governs a culture that expands westward, this is probably still the best explanation. If such Helmands were going to cause problems to their "late IVC/early Vedic" neighbors, it would be limited to the perhaps less than ten passes that connect Pakistan to Afghanistan. Most likely, the very tip around Kabul and Bamiyan *does* become part of Sanskrit Gandhara. Some have tried to say the Helmand *was* the Sarasvati which was lost and reclaimed, but this does not seem likely either. Exactly why a Helmand province has the similar name "Kandahar" is immaterial in the consequence of there being no imprint of a Sanskrit culture there, and, every reason to suspect it was thoroughly Zoroastrian.

    Lomasa's taunt does not imply, to me, at least, that Divodasa took over the main body of modern Afghanistan. There was a situation that a unified Helmand disintegrated, around the Meghalayan Age, and, quite easily, bandits and petty kings seeped out of one or more passes. Bactria was not necessarily involved with, but, aligned to, if not converted to, this group. One can imagine India quite keen on keeping its link to the "crossroads", hence building a post in Srnagar (Burzahom). To this, Chitralis appear as friendly as can be, and Balochistan is sealed in the riddle of how IVC becomes Vedic India. It is likely there were Balochi adversaries, but, we do not know of a new culture based on a scripture that represents a major adversarial nation.

    We probably would not dispute that after 1,200 B. C. E., there are some rich horse traders who make their way into India and establish Brahmanism. Our point is that this is not the method of the Vedic Rishis, but, is more like the purchase of their real estate. The Rishis may have availed themselves of a useful monsoon season arising in India, in a way that was naturally occurring after a rather long bad period. This may have made it more attractive to would-be Helmand bandits and later horsemen (perhaps more like knights).


    The Sar-e Sang mines and Shortugai are not in Helmand. They connect to "the world" via the famous Khyber Pass--in Silk Road times. Broghil and Dorah connect Chitral to Badakshan ("Pamir Highway"). Those three are about the only ones between the modern countries. The border is irrelevant; the idea is how it confines and shapes non-mechanized movement. Going from Badakshan to Helmand likewise requires the use of only about one or two ways through.

    National Geographic thinks M45 from Broghil is the ancestor of all modern western Europeans--M45 further mutated to become M173 and then M343, which is carried by 70% of the population of England.

    That's all they say; no time scale or further support. We are saying enough Indians went through there, that by around 7,000 B. C. E., they were importing lapis to a large city hundreds of miles away. That's called a "direct influence".


    Newer discoveries bring a report 2024 Jiroft lapis most likely from Badakshan. It has been proposed there are additional, minor sources in Tajikstan and Baikal, however analysis shows that Badakshan was at an industrial scale.

    There is almost no ancient archeology here. One 4,500-year-old bone was determined to be of an individual carrying Haplogroup H2a. This is dominant, found for example on 30/32 pre-Ottoman Bosnians, which just seems to echo the inhabitation of Badakshan for at least 30,000 years. Almost all the interest in the region is of its Islamic history.

    Not from the Gathas, but, there is an Old Avestan Creed based on rejecting "the Devas", calling them:


    druj-like

    the yatu


    It then includes other beliefs which are certainly para-Vedic.

    The Rg Veda simply mentions Aryas as enemies, occasionally, which is why we would say it is a book of Angirases.


    The would-be Ahura Mazdean says:

    I renounce the theft and robbery of the cow, [The raiding of cattle, one of the most important causes of conflict in the ancient Iranian society.]


    Well, that implies pre-Mazdeans were Panis. Current ones are outright enemies. This creed does not make much of an actual doctrinal refutation, it just heaps evil names on the Devas, which makes sense, if it is in response to being crushed by a victorious army. I mean, this is a bit unusual, we see that joining one cult specifically states rejecting the other. A review of a similar works finds it is not really a conflict "of the people", but fratricide between leaders.

    That's the antithesis of the Veda. It *is* a religious crusade. What we have found in Sanskrit is more "stop fighting, join us", with total destruction as more of a last resort. The above suggests to me that--maybe not right at the time of the very first Gatha--but in the Old Avestan period, the Helmands were roughed up by the Indians really bad. The first words in that thing are:


    I curse the Daevas.


    There isn't even such a thing as "conversion" into Vedic practice.

    That just sounds like a dreadful confession that they "were" Panis, got punished, and then became fanatical enemies.

    It is Yasna 12, which, according to Wiki, is Young Avestan, which is possibly even worse, since now it means carrying this grudge for some time. But I suppose it is permanent now. This also states itself to be the creed of Saoshyants, saviors, i. e. the theological Messiahs, which do not exist in the Veda. Not at this eschatological level. This one is planning the Final Battle against Evil, which, apparently, it defines as the Vedas, nothing else. This is under the hood in the etymology and traditional beliefs of Prophet.


    It sounds very personal, if it says the Rishis are "liars" without any examples about what, and then outlays very similar beliefs in its own dialect, one cannot tell what the point is. Only that their authority is denied. If I want to question something, then, I find something like "Soioshant" and examine how this meaning is a little bit different from a saint, generous patron, victorious king, etc., and it is even the complete opposite of Future Buddha Maitreya. I suppose the perfect reply to it is Sarama the Talking Dog.

    There is nothing futuristic in the Veda, about like there is nothing foreign. It isn't anything except you currently changing your state into Divinity or Immortality.

    Visibly:

    The main theme of the Rig Veda – “the truth and the gods” – is not evident in the Gathas.

    It may have a "thematic parallel", but not the same forthrightness.

    Curiously the estimates for original Zoroaster were pushed back because of discovering a written fragment from 1323 B. C. E.. But Indra is in a Syrian peace treaty. So you see the same people who want to make Zoroaster *older* are the same ones who want to make Manu *younger* by i. e. requiring the Veda to be sent in from Syria. Just by that one fragment they unquestioningly added five hundred years to their best guess. What we are saying is 2,000 B. C. E. may be about right because they are about equal.



    I can't get any service around here. Everything about the Pamir Highway says the only entrance to Afghanistan is from Fayzabad to Ishkashim. They are not interested how it may continue, that is, how much vaster southern trade was.

    Nature put all this lapis in one of the most complicated places.

    From the Tajik border, there is a southwest spur to Zebak based in the delta of the Sanglich river. More of the highway runs northeast along the Wakhan Corridor, having more passes to Pakistan and one to China. To this day, this area is only connected to the rest of Afghanistan by the Teshkan Bridge.

    However the southern route in question goes through Dorah:

    The pass is 51.8 km (32.18 miles) long, running from Sanglich (in Badakhshan Province in northeastern Afghanistan) to Imirdin (Chitral, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in Pakistan).

    Citral Today says it goes into Munjan, is the shortest route to Central Asia, and has been used for war and trade as far back as they know of. That will link a Google map of it.


    The ancient Sar-e Sang mines are in the Kuran va Munjan region. Perhaps closer to Zebak than the valley name indicates.


    Kokcha watershed:







    It is relatively closest to the Dorah Pass, in relation to which, one might consider Burzahom, an evolved IVC site at Srnagar.

    The newer Shortugai is actually on the north side of it. There is a canal coming out of the Kochka and parallel to it, around Dast i Qala, that goes on to the Rustaq. Another link with a map and picture makes it obvious that it is on the fairly distant border to Tajikstan and is effectively at the headwater of the Oxus River. Its location is most likely because this is navigable. It is not quite "on" the Oxus/Amu Darya as most articles state, but connected, and obviously still has a difficult trek to the mines.

    There are no signs of catastrophe and no particular guesses on why it seems to have been spontaneously abandoned ca. 1,600-1,200 B. C. E..


    To be most precise, the area of activity begins after that horseshoe-shaped conflux where "Kuran e munjan" is printed. The link for its mineral data shows multiple mining interests all the way down river to Jurm. Then if you pop the "15", that is Sar-e Sang, about halfway between or approximately where "Yamgan" appears above.

    I'm not saying for sure that is the Vedic "Munjavat". It is however that same word stuck to the neighboring region of Gandhara.

    Dorah at the bottom left of Wakhan Corridor:







    We shouldn't jump to the conclusion that Mandhata founded Burzahom or Shortugai. These are our modern names for the sites, not former kingdoms. It does seem likely he defended access thereto.


    This is fairly simple. If you come out of the Dorah Pass, you are in Khowar-speaking Garam Chashma. Unmistakably in its mineral data:

    Used to be a huge trading point for lapis lazuli.


    One would pass through Lower Chitral and emerge in Swat. From here, if you skirt the foothills east, you get to Srinagar. This gives you access to the flatlands around Lahore and Amritsar, or, if you follow the hills, you get to Simla and Solan in HP. Continuing, you get to Rakhigarhi, the "capital" on the eastern frontier of IVC.

    That is what we would call the "ancient route", whereas HP to Ladakh seems to be much newer, ca. 300 B. C. E..


    As to why "Gujarati" may be relevant to Citral, IVC is seen as having its other branch of extent there, as developed over time. In this case, earthquakes, land rising from the sea, and Dwarka are taking place. Compared to most other sites, Dholavira is an exception, built of fortified stone in three sections.

    As a sort of mirror-image of Shortugai, there was a newer coastal trading center, Lothal:


    The bust of a male with slit eyes, sharp nose, and square-cut beard is reminiscent of Sumerian figures, especially stone sculptures from Mari.


    Most of these areas near Lothal were devastated by floods around 1,900 B. C. E..


    What is apparent to me is at least, temporarily, a peak. I wouldn't quite call it a "kingdom". But by around 2,000 B. C. E. there were these new projects, Shortugai and Lothal, developed by "the same people". Mari, Syria, is built around this time, which leads to the discoveries of the oldest written Sanskrit. One of which seems to imply there was a similar "Indian trading post" somewhere out there.

    Numerically, the vast majority of writings in Syria, are mail. Or, at least, in Kanesh, Turkey, similarly built by the Assyrians at this time with canal.

    Statistically, the volume of trade drops off, until making a comeback around 1,350 B. C. E..


    The Rg Veda certainly does not make any big deal about maritime commerce. You could try to argue it mentions some extended geography. But its main original topics are HP and Gujarat. It includes, at least minorly, Vidarbha, Orissa, and Tamil Nadu. It takes manufactured goods for granted. So the "original achievement", of civilization, so to speak, does not impress it or is not thought of as a challenge. The questions of it are in distribution. It's not an atlas. We want food and blankets for our friends. That is what it is about.


    We don't dispute some of the early part involved actual fighting, but who with? It is not quite as vehement as the Vendidad. For one thing, some of the "enemies" are not said to be practicing a "different or false religion". According to Samyu, Druhyus are capable of the same vrsnya as Trksis and Purus, which he implores from:


    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): indraḥ pragātho vā


    According to Pragatha, the Aswins might be with the Druhyus.


    According to Kutsa, Indragni might be with the Druhyus.


    In those cases, they do appear to be a tribe/location, which is just part of the description, nothing special. The Rishis are, of course, trying to summon the deities regardless of where they are. Some of that is just a "come here", some of it is a "turn your back on that person". In all cases, it means that what might appear to be "foreigners", are, nevertheless, practicing similar rites.


    The moment of "Druhyu enemies" seems drastic and definite. Vasistha VII.18 is talking about Fish Justice, Matsya Nyaya:


    puroḻā it turvaśo yakṣur āsīd rāye matsyāso niśitā apīva | śruṣṭiṃ cakrur bhṛgavo druhyavaś ca sakhā sakhāyam atarad viṣūcoḥ ||


    “Turvaśa, who was presiding (at solemn rites), diligent in sacrifice, (went to Sudāsa) for wealth; but like fishes restricted (to the element of water), the Bhrigus and Druhyus quickly assailed them; of these two everywhere going the friend (of Sudāsa, Indra) rescued his friend.”


    Turvasa -- the Yadus appear to be joining Sudas, when the Druhyus, having Bhrgus for priests, interfere.

    Some identities have been glossed too quickly:


    ā pakthāso

    tṛtsubhyo


    Is this a reply to the Kavi -- Kayana lineage of Helmand?


    “The evil-disposed and stupid (enemies of Sudāsa), crossing the humble Paruṣṇi river, have broken down its banks; but he by his greatness pervades the earth, and Kavi, the son of Cāyamana, like a falling victim, sleeps (in death).”


    In defeat, the enemies are said to suffer from Impotent Speech:


    vadhrivācaḥ


    and they are subjugated to become:


    mānuṣe




    Druhyus are defeated by Flood and then:


    he has given the dwelling of the son of Anu to Tṛtsu



    Where the Avestan Creed says the Devas are "Angra Mainyu", Indra has essentially the same adversaries:


    indro manyum manyumyo mimāya


    He defeats a Lion:


    siṃhyaṃ cit petvenā jaghāna |



    by:


    Petva (पेत्व).—i. e. pī + tva, n. 1. Nectar. 2. Clarified butter.

    E. pā to drink, itvan

    Petva (पेत्व).—[masculine] ram, sheep.


    adding accomplices:

    Ajas, the Śigrus, the Yakṣas


    returning to the previous thought:


    you have slain Devaka, the son of Mānyamāna


    (for him) the flowing (rivers) have destroyed Yudhyamadhi in war.


    ending by assuring us Sudas is the son of this same person:


    Divodasa <--> Pijavana




    Babhru is claimed in numerous Puranic lineages, for Vyasa, Saunaka, and others, however Druhyu is not connected with many descendants except in Brahmanda Purana:



    7. The two sons of Druhyu, viz. Babhru and Setu were renowned warriors. Aruddha was Setu’s son and Ripu is mentioned as the son of Babhru.

    8. This strong king fought a great battle with Yauvanāśva for full fourteen months. Due to great strain, he was killed in that battle by Yauvanāśva.

    9. The heir and successor of Aruddha was the king named Gandhāra. The great realm of Gandhāra is named after him.

    10. The horses born (bred) in the country of Gāndhāra are excellent horses.




    It does not quite make sense to say the grandson of Druhyu fought against Mandhata Yauvanasva. Or that this would be Babhru's son. You could try to say that "Druhyu" was this name since time immemorial, and the presence of Babhru still makes no sense. We might say the Purana is a vaguely confused memory of that area. This one is similar but slightly different from the defeat of Angara.

    It is not evident that any Druhyus are again a problem after Sudas.

    Aside from general badgering, Vasistha accuses them of something like a Yoga heresy, something like they perform rites, but they cannot master Speech, that is, they cannot really do mantras bringing the effects that Vaisistha discusses in startling crystal detail.

    Now, where Talageri discusses various tribes as enemies/ancestors of Iranians, Sayana comments them as Yajna assistants. Even the moderate translation takes them as Tribes together under Indra and the Trtsus' leadership. From that point he uses a minor linguistic argument to support OIT. This in itself is irrelevant to the Rg Veda.

    He probably is correct the Zoroastrian schism may be coming to light. He thinks they are slagging:


    Angra -- Angiras


    and that this rival from VII.18 is their patriarch:


    KavaSa and the Druhyu

    Kavi, the son of Cāyamana



    an ancestor of this
    king, AbhyAvartin CAyamAna, is identified in VI.27.8 as a PArthava


    note:

    Pārthava: Abhyāvartin, as descended from Pṛthu



    Kavasa does not have any etymology with any bearing on "Kavi".

    In this case, the name, "Kavi Cayamana" might be rejected--this interpretation ignored the presence of "pasus" or "beasts", which, taken into account, would translate more as the metaphor:


    still lay the herd and the affrighted herdsman.


    Both translations take "Kavasa" as a name, although it may be simply:


    Thou, thunder-armed, o' erwhelmedst in the waters famed ancient Kavasa and then the Druhyu.


    and afterwards Druhyu


    so he is split off or separated, unless one wishes it to mean killed the king first and then the tribe. There are no other references to this person. So we do not have a Kavi *or* Kavasa who clearly stands as an opposing doctrine. It is an opposing person, likely a king, secondarily represented as a herdsman.

    Kavasa Ailusa of X.30-34 is the priest of Kurusravana and appears to bewail a death among Trasadasyu's descendants. One would not associate this to a single mention by Vasistha about something else.


    It is possible to say that Kavi Kavata founded the Kayani Dynasty if spelled according to Yt XIII.132.


    Another study that finds the same "connections" looks at Tura Kavasheya, a Brahmanical character, used to associate Sudasa, Somaka and Sahadeva, by somehow making Kavasa appear older, when it is emphatic he is among the last that we can trace. Exactly why "Tura" is hateful to the Avesta has not been questioned in this light. It is Sanskrit, may have been someone's name previously, even from a northern area. Avestan "Turanic" enemies are perhaps Sintashta.

    Even from another summary using Kavata, I certainly would not bridge the result it must be "Kavasa" mentioned by Vasistha one time. Their lore includes a type of Purana about persons living thousands of years, the domestication of animals, etc.; their hymns are Puranic and for instance chant kings' lists.


    It is such a blunt type of name, Druh is hard to take seriously as meaning anything but "attacker". It does not seem to me to be a geographic or personal proper name, although it does seem to show violence emanating from Punjab or lower Pakistan.

    If he had been defeated and driven towards Afghanistan, perhaps Puranic "Angara" is Zoroastrian "Angra Mainyu". In Harivamsa:


    angAra is said to be a nomadic in desert lands, maru bhUmi-s, training nomadic fighters on horseback - turaga Aroha kushalAH, with whom he attacked mAndhAta and failed.


    We found "Manyaman" essentially in the background of Vedic enemies.

    "Druhyus" may have had "Vedic priests", and have been associated with the names of Angara and Manyaman, and have gone to Afghanistan and become Zoroaster's enemies. If so, we could understand they probably would not have been differentiated from other Indians.

    That perhaps is more satisfying than presuming a large scale Helmand--IVC clash of civilizations. West Indians or Punjabis may have been the mutual enemies of Rishis and Zoroastrians. Mandhata disposed of them temporarily, Sudas permanently.


    The significant meaning of Abhyavartin Cayamana Parthava is, if the "Prthus" are an Ayodhya Ikshvaku lineage, they have pledged to Bharadvaja in that quote. "Cayamana" is similar to "Turvaya", both have meanings of "rapid motion" as it is used in some cases, personalized as names elsewhere. Bharadvaja is clearly dealing with a person. He has a third name, plural, "of the Parthavas", rather than "son of Prthu".


    So, the trouble is, western academics use one linguistic subset to determine that "the Aryans" came from the west and took over India. Talageri uses the same subset to say that "the Aryas" ransacked Afghanistan and dislodged "Iranian tribes". But this is based on Puranas contradicting the Veda--the "sons of Sudas"--where the subject is really "the realm of Trasadasyu". If we try to pick apart this framework, I am not sure what will remain standing.



    Concerning western movement, "Parusni" is regularly identified as the Ravi River; I have nothing to dispute that. Among its Rg Veda appearances, Vamadeva says that Indra is prospering the area.

    Syavasva says the Maruts may abide there.

    Vlll.75.15 -- incorrect -- párasyā

    And it is easily found in River Hymn X.75 in the "attached" group.

    None of that has any more to offer than what Vasistha says.


    From his examination:


    While SudAs was still the leader of the Bharatas in the battles on
    the YamunA and the ParuSNI, the battle beyond the Sarayu appears
    to have taken place under the leadership of his remote descendant
    Sahadeva in the Middle Period of the Rigveda.

    Sahadevas son (referred to by his priest VAmadeva in IV. 15.7-
    10), who also appears to have been a participant, in the above battle
    beyond the Sarayu, may have been named Somaka...


    Again, this refers to the Varsagiras:


    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): somakaḥ sāhadevyaḥ


    That is the point--it's not any descendant of Sudas, it's the Varsagiras, who, if anything, are affiliated to or provisional for Trasadasyu.

    Showing the people are wrong is easy. This leads to what appears to me to be the real core of the Veda, i. e., that the Angirases are the same whether they work with a Bharata or an Ikshvaku king. In some cases, Aryas are enemies; Talageri cannot find a disrespectful word towards the Bharatas. But you also find no enmity between these two dynasties, nor any kind of split or denial about Angirases, who are repeatedly described as multi-ethnic.


    As to why Avestan and some other languages may bear great similarity, from the Vedic view, we don't care. It doesn't actually say "you have to speak Sanskrit" or "we created Sanskrit", it looks at Speech as a principle that requires certain emotional and moral inputs in order to qualify to enter the discussion. So there may be another type of mirror image:


    SarasvatI (HaraxvaitI) and a Sarayu (Haroiiu) are also
    found in Afghanistan; and a GomatI and a Sarayu are found in
    northeastern Uttar Pradesh.



    Well, if you study the River Hymn or any other relevant mantra, "Gomati" is also a quality or value that is being sought, not a particular river. It is the "enrichment". Sarasvati provides bounty, whereas Gomati can only exist where Dharma reigns. But this is what is used to say India conquered Afghanistan:


    Sarayu (Siritoi)

    IV.30.18 refers to what is clearly the westermnost point
    in this movement, a battle fought in southern Afghanistan on yonder
    side of Sarayu.


    Well, for one thing, "they" remember it, but this is not what they are saying about it. Syavasva commands the Maruts over this and other rivers. He's casting magic. Syavasva is fascinating. He does have to do with geography, apparently by marrying in to foreign royalty, this is what it is about.

    note for Kubha:


    In the other Saṃhitās, there is no mention of Gomatī as a river.

    According to R.T.H. Griffith, this river is indentical with the modern Kabul river.


    Gomati is less "geographical", and more like a special state of blessing praised in certain mantras. The main reason we say "Kubha" is "Kabul" is due to the automatic assignments by European professors. We might try even the Avesta, or, anyone else, to see if this could somehow be appropriate in such distant eras. At most, even if so, Kabul is quite towards the edge of Pakistan, and would not be exemplary of Helmand.

    This "river" may have been as symbolic as "Gomati":


    Sarayu (सरयु).—Air, wind.

    -yuḥ, -yūḥ f. Name of a river on which stands Ayodhyā, or Oudh


    But at least it can be arguably assigned to an Indian location. If Helmand reliably has copies of Sarasvati and Sarayu, that may speak more towards an older commonality of myths from which river names were drawn. Too many variables to determine that India took over Afghanistan yet.

    So when we are given one more reference to it, this is where Gaya Plata says:


    “May the very great rivers, Sarasvatī, Sarayu, Sindhu, come with their waves for (our) protection; may the divine maternal animating waters grant us their water mixed with butter and honey.”


    That itself does not suggest to me that he is interested in Helmand.

    Moreover, this is one of the most mystical hymns in the whole Rg Veda, I would run it against I.164 any day. For instance he praises Tisya naksatra. Most of all, he refers to what we might call the Divine Couple of Atri's Triple Bull:



    mātā bṛhaddivā

    tvaṣṭā pitā


    whom we beseech to hear our:


    vacaḥ


    No reason to automatically disqualify ourselves from being able to do so.

    That is what it is about. It would not be all that impressive if Kabul is taken for granted, because it is along the same corridor used for centuries, closer to the Khyber Pass, which of course becomes more important in post-Vedic history.


    You can't use Syavasva or Gaya Plata to support the battle as claimed. The Rg Veda won't let you.


    The ultimate comparison comes down to this:


    The battle in the Avesta took place in southern
    Afghanistan: Gnoli points out that the Hilmand delta region is
    the scene of the struggle between WiStAsp and ArjAsp.

    The reference to the battle beyond the Sarayu in IV.30.18
    refers to ArNa and Citraratha, both Aryas, who were killed in the
    battle by (the grace of) Indra.


    Additional inquiry into this train of thought show us that rivers run in the other direction:

    Quote The Yajurvedasaṃhitā introduces us not only a geographical area different from that of the Ṛgvedasaṃhitā, but also to a new epoch of religious and social life in India. The centre of Vedic civilization is now found to lie farther to the east. The Indus and its tributaries are heard no more, for the geographical data of all the recensions of the Yajurvedasaṃhitā point to the territory in the middle of northern India occupied by the neighbouring peoples of the kurus and Pāñcālas. The country of the former, called Kurukṣetra is specially the holy land of the Yajurvedas and the Brāhmaṇas attached to them. It lay in the plain between the Sutlej and the Yamunā, beginning with the tract bounded by the two small rivers Dṛṣadvatī and Sarasvatī, and extending south-eastwards to the Yamunā. It corresponds to the modern district of Sirhind. Closely connected with, and eastward of this region, was situated the land of the pāñcālas, which, running south east from the Meerut district to Allahabad, embraces the territory between the Yamunā and the Ganges called the Doab (‘Two Waters’).

    More simply stated, from Kurukshetra to Prayaga.

    Allright. Now if we try to squeeze Afghanistan from Vamadeva, we are going to have a serious problem. First of all, this is one of the most mystical hymns to be found, in fact if you want to find how the River Hymn works, then you might want to look at how its tributaries, such as the Sarayu, are found in the Samhita. Not as in just a word location, but, how is it being used. It explains itself--*you* can't explain it. This is its own Speech. This is one of the most mystical hymns to be found, like the ones we just mentioned.

    Here, Vamadeva relates several exploits of Indra, but most importantly is the violent scene with Usas, which takes us directly to HP. He even gives Sambara a last name and says he is the son of:


    Kulitara


    Now let's take the attribution in the context with its previous verse:


    “The lord of acts, the wise Indra, has borne across (their difficulties), Turvaśas and Yadu, when denied inauguration.”

    “You have slain at once those two Āryas, Arṇa and Citraratha, (dwellig) on the opposite (bank) of the Sarayu.”


    It then changes subject, in a way that Sayana recognizes as a pattern:


    in an earlier passage, blindness and lameness were attributed to one person


    So it actually has a way of describing the same thing twice. Like Kutsa is in one area and Susna in another, but, those are one and the same incident.

    But he just told us that two entire tribes had gotten excluded from royal office. My guess is that this may be due to children outside of marriage. It is possible that the two Aryas were illegitimate children at the heads of the successory lines. In that case, they were probably living at an Indian river.

    The hymn probably also speaks of Divodasa in two ways. The chance of it being meaningful towards names in general seems to be summarized in the final verse, which is self-reflexive to Vamadeva:


    vāmaṃ-vāmaṃ ta ādure devo dadātv aryamā | vāmam pūṣā vāmam bhago vāmaṃ devaḥ karūḻatī ||


    “Destroyer of foes, may the divine Aryaman distribute your precious wealth; (may) Pūṣa (bestow it), (may), Bhaga (bestow it); may the toothless deity bestow the desired wealth.”


    Nothing there says "beyond" a river in Afghanistan. The closest approximation is the two familiar tribes, and, the thing he is saying about the Rishi is mind-blowing and probably explains all of the rest of the hymns in the Rg Veda. This is because he combines Blind and Lame, which can be found in several other hymns, with Outcaste, which is relatively rare and perhaps related to the marital issue.

    If "opposite side of a river" is a normal location, Parata is used this way only once.

    But, that is not really going to question the context, which sounds like the two people lived across from most of the Yadus and Turvasas. At least I suspect a related political motivation. I see nothing that would persuade me they were "very distant", in fact it is so internal, you could just as easily guess they were on the *eastern* bank.


    In terms of literature of the world, Vamadeva is high caliber, this is like Sufi poetry or something. His name means "May the Deity bestow". He speaks from the view that Indra has already done these things, there is a solid Vedic geography. I suppose if you wanted to denounce "the Devas", that might be because you are reacting to him. The meaning of IV.30 is an intricate blend of politics and theology developed in other mantras.


    Kabul could be Chinese:


    ...in the Avesta (sacred book of Zoroastrianism), Kabul was known as Vaekereta...

    It remains unknown when the name "Kabul" was first applied to the city.


    When I see the Sanskrit, I think of:


    Kubh (कुभ्).—[kubha] r. 10th cl. (i) kubhi (kumbhayati) To cover, to clothe, to veil or hide: see kuba.


    which becomes Kubera.

    Kubha is unknown in the Puranas.


    There are other things that would jump out as more likely appropriate for the area:


    Lampāka (लम्पाक).—m.

    (-kaḥ) 1. A country, the district of Lamghan in Cabul.

    Nagarahāra (Jelāl-ābād) and Hadda

    to the west, Kapiśa, capital Kāpiśī (Begram)


    Bahlikā (बह्लिका).—(pl.) Name of a country (Balkh)

    Kāmboja (काम्बोज).—m.

    (-jaḥ) 1. A native of Kamboja, a foreign race going like the Yavanas, with the whole of the head shaved, one of the tribes originally Kshetriya, but degraded by omission of the essential rites.


    This is Dravidian Kannada:


    Kaṃdāri (ಕಂದಾರಿ):—[adjective] of Afghanistan


    That leads to the estimation that the reason for Indic-sounding place names in Helmand, and, the Dravidian isolate Brahui in Balochistan, might be that para-Vedic Dravidians were "Deva" enemies inside Afghanistan, and were, eventually, defeated.


    It may almost be a trade, of Druhyus driven into Afghanistan, and Dravidians out.


    Is this perhaps meaningful?

    Large numbers of Brahui live along the Helmand River all the way to Iranian Sistan.


    Dravidian occurs in Bihar and Bengal, so, is thought to have been continuous across north India, i. e. IVC:


    Quote However, it has been argued that the absence of any Old Iranian (Avestan) loanwords in Brahui...The main Iranian contributor to Brahui vocabulary, Balochi, is a western Iranian language like Kurdish, and arrived in the area from the west only around 1000 CE.

    They have no legends. They are in about the same place, and, perhaps, original witnesses to all of this, of which they have no memory and nothing to say.


    Seddiq Tarzi follows our same points and says:


    Quote The words of Phalam or Fruit, Mukham or Mouth and Khala or Threshold belong to family language of Dravidian but being used in Rg Veda too. It shows the penetration of Dravidian language to Indo-European one in Rg Veda.
    Kannada and Malayalam speakers reply how much their languages are influenced by Sanskrit--"some" and "the most".


    That is, of course, hard for me to tell. The common words just look like the same thing to me; and it looks like two-way traffic from the start.

    While for Avesta and Sanskrit:


    Quote Bird, the famous textualist, after deep review, has been noted that eighty-five percent of the words in these two languages, have shared together (N. Bird. 1982) and it can be translated very simply. The only difference is their dialect. So we can not call them two languages.
    Several replies to a post on the Mitanni treaty explain that Sanskrit varies from "Indo-European" by its Dravidian input.



    Aryan and Dravidian are unreal as "different people" as in hostile, or you could say both have always been "Indians".


    In the sense of Indo-European language, the Sintashta are not derived from the Steppe, they are a direct transplant of Corded Ware:

    Quote It's also generally accepted to be the Proto-Indo-Iranian culture, and thus linguistically ancestral to a myriad of present-day peoples of Asia, including Indo-Aryans and Persians. No wonder then, that its origin, and that of its population, have been hotly debated issues.

    One may consider the distribution of this R1a.








    A paper for a special occasion in 2022 finds a "debate" between an unnamed Zoroastrian and Gotama while reviewing the same physical facts considering:



    Quote ...how precisely the architecture of grave pits at Sintashta correlates to
    the textual descriptions in RV 10.18, and how excavations of horse sacrifices in
    Sintashta correlate with the textual description of horse sacrifice for royal funerals in
    RV 1.162.

    The Sintashta settlement did not continue to be inhabited very long. Correspondingly:


    Quote After 1800 BC, as the BMAC civilisation began to decline,
    the Andronovo-Tazabagyab culture concomitantly rose in prominence and power...


    From the European side, that is like a reverse umbrella. Sintashta was nearly purely R1a, Andronovo has more varieties and a Yamnaya component.


    This literature also displays something like a Puranic phase of enhancements:


    Quote Clear references to any identifiable geographical entities are
    absent in Old Avestan texts


    However, in the Young Avestan texts, which variously date from several centuries after
    the Old Avestan texts and which refer to content from the Old Avestan texts and also contain mythic material that reaches into an even deeper past, a much clearer picture begins
    to emerge.

    They don't claim to originate any further than the Pamirs, but after their movements:

    Quote the fourth and final sequence moves through Rāgh in Badakhšān and eventually
    into the Hapta Həṇdu region

    Referring to the map of male DNA:


    Quote They note how a distinctive Central_Steppe_MLBA cluster, which also included DNA samples of individuals associated with the Corded Ware, Srubnaya, Petrovka, and Sintashta archaeological complexes,
    ‘was the primary conduit...

    So far, Corded Ware --> Sintashta --> India appears to be a direct descent, ending with the dominance of Andronovo in Russia and the vaporization of BMAC.


    Language does not determine physical history:

    Quote Overall in Pakistan, genetic relationships are generally predicted more accurately by geographic proximity than linguistic origin. The Dravidian-speaking Brahui population are a prime example of this. They currently reside in south-western Pakistan, surrounded by Indo-Europeans speakers with whom they share a common genetic origin.

    The Brahui localise together with most Pakistani populations along a PC gradient that stretches from the Caucasian Adygei (light blue in Figure 3A and Figure 3B) to South Indians (yellow) and is present in all Indo-European speaking groups, except for the Kalash. Additionally, the ancestry composition of Brahui (Figure 3C) is comparable to that of the Balochi, Makrani and Pathan, all populations of Indo-European speakers in Pakistan. In contrast, the Dravidian Indians are distinguished from all Pakistani populations...

    and:


    Quote Given the high affinity of Brahui to the other Indo-European Pakistani populations and the absence of population admixture with any of the examined Indian Dravidian groups, we conclude that Brahui are an example of cultural (linguistic) retention following a major population replacement.
    Similarly, Burnt City is mainly Iranian Haplogroup N, even if it is in the Helmand cultural sphere.


    And more paternal genetics:


    G2a1a-FGC595, Z6553, formed 15000 ybp, TMRCA 9500 yb (herein or in subgroups) Uyghurs, Uzbeks, Karakalpaks, Bashkirs, Kumyks, Karachays, Tatars, some among Hungarians, Czechs, and Bulgarians and Kalash and Brahui.

    C1b1a1-M356 Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emeritates, locally in India, especially in Gujarat 9%, and in the Brahui of Pakistan.


    So the Brahui are the "same people" as Pakistanis and Gujaratis, which spoke Dravidian, which was probably all the way across IVC and south India.

    If Sanskrit comes from an imported language, it has already absorbed the influence prior to the Rg Veda.

    Avesta apparently says it comes from the Pamirs, while there is a lot of curiosity if "Indo-" can specifically be traced to Sintashta.


    Quote Moreover, many ancient and present-day South and Central Asians, particularly those identified with or speaking Indo-Iranian languages, appear to be strongly attracted to the main Sintashta cluster, forming an almost perfect cline between this cluster and the likely Indus Valley diaspora individuals who show no evidence of steppe ancestry.

    The Sintashta were eminently warfaring, and it seems by a certain point they were gone and the site re-occupied by Andronovos. However they really had a Country of Towns:



    Quote Since the discovery of the Sintashta culture, aerial photography has revealed that there is a compactly grouped number of town-type settlements (over 20) in the northern steppe of the southern Trans-Urals, within an area bounded roughly 350~400 km north–south and 120~150 km east–west between Magnitorgorsk and Chelyabinsk in Orenburg Oblast, Chelyabinsk Oblast, Northern Kazakhstan and Bashkortostan.

    ...there are more Sintashta-type settlements discovered in Orenburg Oblast, so that when taken into an account, they would significantly blur the "clearly defined" boundaries of the "Country of Towns".
    Here they found the oldest of the known chariots, dated horse bones from 2026 BC.

    In the Bronze Age:


    Quote They operated extensive copper mines, such as the Vorovskaya Yama mine, on an industrial scale. Smelting ovens and slag remnants found in settlements indicate a sophisticated level of metalwork. This mastery facilitated trade with the prosperous cities of the Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex in Central Asia, providing the Sintashta people access to advanced technologies and urban life.

    Of course. Let's compare these estimates of Sintashta to Shortugai:


    2050 and 1750 BC

    2150-1650 BCE


    c. 2200–1900 BCE

    Sintashta–Petrovka complex, c. 2200–1750 BCE



    One detects a bubble around 2,000 B. C. E.--the "cultures" of Sintashta, BMAC, and Shortugai, all rise and fall. The net result is that the Shortugai people effectively return to India bringing Sintashta with them. BMAC appears to stall, and then I guess the Avestan story goes here.

    Concerning the language, the R1a map is pretty close to "Sanskrit-affiliated" languages.


    The metal trade between Sintashta and the BMAC for the first time connected the steppe region to the ancient urban civilisations of the Near East: the empires and city-states of modern Iran and Mesopotamia provided a large market for metals. These trade routes later became the vehicle through which horses, chariots and ultimately Indo-Iranian-speaking people entered the Near East from the steppe.


    Sintashta, and, for instance, Lothal both ran at industrial scale and heavily relied on Mesopotamian and other markets. Consequently, problems in those countries killed these industries.

    Sanskrit may have absorbed Dravidian, but the Rg Veda eschews IVC deities, but, this may be in the sense of a necessary Astrological update.


    If we examine the "Vedic geometry" from a funeral hymn does not express it very well:




    let us go forward to dancing and laughter


    This is clearly a funeral--of bones, according to the Grhya Sutras. You have de-carnated the body, you are putting bones in a grave, and then there is some kind of boundary marker somewhere else.

    Coming from a Yajurveda commentary:

    the Adhvaryu is to raise a bank or lump or earth betwen the village where the deceased lived and the cemetery, as a rampart against death

    "mound or kurgan":

    parvatena

    “I erect this circle (of stones) for (the protection of) the living, that none other of them may approach this limit; may they live a hundred years, occupied by many holy works, and keep death hidden by this mound.”


    Nothing says "stones". That is an inference. What kind of circle is it making?




    Paridhi (परिधि) refers to the “(misty) haloes” (around the sun and the moon)

    Paridhi (परिधि).—1 A wall, fence, hedge, anything surrounding or enclosing another

    8) A stick (of a sacred tree like palāśa) laid round the sacrificial fire; सप्तास्यासन् परिधयः त्रिःसप्त समिधः कृताः (saptāsyāsan paridhayaḥ triḥsapta samidhaḥ kṛtāḥ) Ṛgveda 1.9.15



    It may be the power of Vrtra to confine rivers, or in the words of Vamadeva:


    “These (rivers) flew murmuring as if, being filled with water, they were uttering sounds (of joy); ask them what is this they say; what is the encompassing cloud that the waters break through?”




    It also appears as a ritual component in questions for the Sadhya class:


    “What was the authority (of the sacrifice), what was the limitation, what was the first cause, what was the clarified butter, what was the enclosure, what was the metre, what was pra-uga text, when the universal gods offered worship to the gods?”


    There's no answer.

    Two of the other questions- those relating to the butter (ājya)and the enclosure (paridhi)-- have been answered, in the Puruṣa sūkta, 10.90; cf. Taittirīya Brāhmaṇa3.12.9]. beholding them with the eye of the mind, I glorify those who of old celebrated this sacrifice.”


    In Purusa Sukta, after the Sadhyas are involved with creation:


    “Seven were the enclosures of the sacrifice, thrice seven logs of fuel were prepared, when the gods, celebrating the rite, bound Puruṣa as the victim.”

    Seven enclosures: sapta paridhayaḥ = seven metres, ga-yatrī etc., and also as meaning the shallow trenches, three of which were dug round the Āhavanīya fireplace, three round the northern altar, and the seven ideally dug round the sun to keep off evil spirits. paridhayaḥ = moats; or, the seven oceans


    That's the closest to "geometry". It's not a funeral. If it was a funeral, the paridhi is not at the grave.

    It is in one of the most mystical hymns in the whole Rg Veda by Vasistha:


    “By the wisdom seated in the heart the Vasiṣṭhas traverse the hidden thousand branched world, and the Apsarasas sit down wearing the vesture spread out by Yama.”


    The Vesture is also how he was born.



    The same word we have been told is a ring of gravestones has also been called a cotton garment that meant slavery of conquered peoples.

    The Rg Veda has no "rituals", that is what the Yajur Veda and Grhya Sutras are for.


    I wouldn't force any conclusions that Sintashta was much like the Vedas. It is possible it shared a lot of language and perhaps mythology. But if we are to say Sanskrit is unregisterable without Dravidian input, the Veda is likewise dependent on rice.

    Sumerian and Egyptian mythology does not exist in any known form that does not require the input of Badakshan Lapis Lazuli. The Rg Veda does not exist without rice that was domesticated in China in its early agricultural revolution. This is not considered part of IVC:


    Jhusi

    The place is also noted for being one of the Neolithic sites that provides some of the earliest evidence of farming in South Asia.

    An archeological site near the confluence of the Ganges and Yamuna rivers yielded a carbon-14 dating of 7106 BCE to 7080 for its Neolithic levels.


    It corresponds in folklore to Pratisthan of Ila and Pururavas. Its mounds are not that old, so, that may be applicable to some particular layer. You would think they would dig this up and see it. Work remains to be done.

    Prayag is about 800km from Rakhigarhi, and is considerably closer to Bihar.


    Modern Ayodhya is on the Sarayu River less than 200 km north of Prayag. So far it has no sites prior to Buddha's time. We think its original meaning was symbolic, like First Sage Agni. Could terminating a dispute have led to the manifestation of the symbol, perhaps.



    Sintashta was not all that big, it is tempting to say the larger Andronovo took over, and the survivors could easily have been absorbed into India. If anyone had the means to travel, it was them. That is unusual to be considered the "masters of warfare" and vanish without a trace, except for your genetics. It is not physically possible they could be responsible for the Veda as such, even if they may be the origin of Sanskrit.

    Avestan is almost the same as Sanskrit except for the Dravidian component. Same words but a very different message. So far, the most potent Sanskrit catechumenism I have been able to find is Speech based in Friendliness and Wisdom. That is the message. Secondly that whole train of thought is like Manichean Dualism, really strongly focused, even anxious, on the dark or material side of nature. This has no place in Indian thought. It's a different sense of relationship.


    It lacks that type of pressure; it never approaches anything like a national anthem. Just about every time something is "for us", it is a Family name or a Rishi's personal name. I get the sense it means "community of", rather than just a few individuals.

    This is a lot softer and lighter than that other type of doctrine. We have analyzed multiple expressions referring to "mortal". It appears the Puranic corpus has seized upon this, and invented a history that is not what the Veda says. I can understand that point of view might jump out if you think Rishi Atri is the same as the ancient legendary one. In that sense, the OIT relative chronology appears correct, that he is really the last or youngest Gotra.


    Vedic Manu refutes the Puranic view, while the term really seems to mean a type of decision, or a free choice of accepting the Rishis' ways. Rarely found outside of the Anukramani, Manava has a stronger connotation of "descendant of Manu", and we would suggest the physical way is merely provisional. Most of the hymns are pitched to a Sanskrit audience, to whom there is not much need to describe "other".


    Comparatively, the expression Manusa is quite common, and, arguably, is not just "human":


    favourable or propitious to men, humane, [Ṛg-veda; Atharva-veda]

    the signs of the zodiac Gemini, Virgo, and Libra

    A branch of medicine, the administering of drugs and herbs.

    Human effort, Chr. 56, 16 (daivaṃ mānuṣopetam, Fate combined with human effort)

    māṇūsa (माणूस).—m f n (manuṣya S) A man, a person, a human being: also man or mankind. In designation of the stages downwards from the delicateness, tenderness, and susceptibility pertaining to Civilized humanity unto the rudeness, hardiness, and callousness of Absolute barbarism, three words have been devised to alliterate or jingle with māṇūsa, this word expressing the standard state. These three, with māṇūsa at their head, are (māṇūsa) kāṇūsa, ṭhēkasa, ṭhōmasa. bharalyā māṇasāntūna uṭhaviṇēṃ-kāḍhaṇēṃ-ghālaviṇēṃ To cast out of society. māṇasākāṇasīṃ By or through human beings. māṇusācēṃ kāṇūsa hōṇēṃ To become emaciated or reduced; or to become poor and wretched; i. e. to cease being māṇūsa and to become any non-descript thing. māṇūsa kāṇūsa ōḷakhāvēṃ- jāṇāvēṃ-pāhāvēṃ-dhyānānta dharāvēṃ &c. Make distinction betwixt man and man.




    It's not anthropology, since the "society" is that of the Kanvas, Atreyas, etc., it is a qualified condition.

    Although it is barely in any verses, the translators fall apart when they find "manava" in Gotama:


    “May the Maruts, whose coursers are spotted deer, who are the sons of Pṛśni, gracefully-moving frequenters of sacrifices, (seated) on the tongue of Agni, regarders (of all), and radiant as the sun, may all the gods come hither for our preservation.”


    pṛṣadaśvā marutaḥ pṛśnimātaraḥ śubhaṃyāvāno vidatheṣu jagmayaḥ | agnijihvā manavaḥ sūracakṣaso viśve no devā avasā gamann iha ||


    The Maruts, Sons of Prsni, borne by spotted steeds, moving in glory, oft visiting holy rites,
    Sages whose tongue is Agni, brilliant as the Sun, -- hither let all the Gods for our protection come.



    It looks like he is saying those Manavas who have Agni for Tongue--Speech, and Eye of the Sun, metaphorical for the bundle of senses as well as clairvoyance, that is who the Devas protect.




    Here is a place we would have to exercise judgment not to make a hasty conclusion.

    This is the verse before Parucchepa refers to Brhaspati in the present tense:


    The ancient Dadhyañc, Aṅgiras, Priyamedha, Kaṇva, Atri, Manu, have known my birth; they who were of old and Manu have known (my progenitors)...


    At first it sounds like they are standing around the hospital delivery room, but, I think it fits the logic they are Pitrs and watching and knowing from Heaven. If he is talking to an audience that *knows* that this is a legend, they would not think for a second that a living Rishi Atri was his personal mentor. He then says Brhaspati is the Hota, which is possible, for it to be Rishi Brhaspi in this case. The "saints", as it were, have been doing this continuously since they started, to which, the mortal generations have remained faithful. Sayana's comment is that is the same "manavas" that knew Parucchepa's ancestors, know him. I don't think this is a verse about Manu on the material plane.

    Because they are "with" the Devas:


    teṣāṃ deveṣv āyatir asmākaṃ teṣu nābhayaḥ | teṣām padena mahy ā name gir


    Ayati is future, future generations.


    Of the Devas is the Ayati of our Navels.

    Praise to them in this "Great Station", i. e., Maha Pada, which is recognizable as Heaven where the Pitrs are.


    At the same time, he *is* saying Rishi Kanva and the Praiyamedhas must have been among the first Angirases, moreover, Kanva is Syava or "dark".

    Here, Manu only has one name, is not distinguishable from the Rishis.

    Vamadeva then says a system of Dadhyan is "everywhere".




    With respect to "very old" influences, it turns out that the first complete ancient African genome was not sequenced until 2015:


    Quote Of all the ancient populations in Northeast Africa, the Badarians of Upper Egypt were most often regarded as the likeliest link between the local Afro-Asiatic-speaking groups and the Indus Valley peoples.

    The Badarian culture flourished between 4400-4000 BCE.

    Despite its brief existence, the culture is considered archaeologically important since Badarian sites have yielded the earliest evidence of agriculture in Egypt.

    The sample is younger and reflects later migrations.

    The Badarians were approximately near Luxor, and have not been sequenced, so it is guesswork about Asian influence.

    Between the Badarians and the new genome, Ethiopians were called Indic by Nilus, Eusebius, Herodotus.


    They're west IVC, Baloch--Makran origin. This means Dravidians are the "straight-haired" Ethiopians:

    Quote Besides the osteological work, ancient testimonials, zebu cattle complex and hair morphology, there are a couple of other indications that an East Eurasian ancestral component likely exists among the Afro-Asiatic-speaking groups in Northeast Africa. Narasimhan et al. (2019) report a high prevalence of the Afro-Asiatic-linked E1b1b paternal haplogroup among Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age individuals from the Swat Valley in northern Pakistan, specimens which also exclusively bore M and N mtDNA derivatives. This points to ancient ties between this area, Mesopotamia, the Levant, the Arabian peninsula, North Africa and the Horn of Africa (cf. Table S1-S5).

    Such early connections between Afro-Asiatic-speaking populations and groups bearing East Eurasian ancestry are likewise supported by Witas et al. (2013), who analyzed Early Bronze Age to Roman era specimens excavated at Tell Ashara (Terqa) and Tell Masaikh (Kar-Assurnasirpal) in Mesopotamia. The researchers found that these ancient individuals (dated to 2500BCE-500CE) belonged to the mtDNA clades M4b1, M49 and/or M61, maternal lineages that are today concentrated and believed to have evolved in the Indian subcontinent.

    I'm not sure it amounts to a "colony", which, to me at least, carries the implication of an attempt at independence. Something like "exclave" might be more appropriate, as we can imagine Shortugai ran from a plan based on established trading partnerships. Again so far we are just saying that some amount of the population from Gulf Coast, Yemen, over to Ethiopia has IVC ancestry that is barely mixed with South Indian. Similar to the Brahui. That is from live populations. Nothing historical is dated, and, we find it probably not around 4,000, but, maybe around 3,000 B. C. E..


    This is simple. For cattle, a study of 844 Asian Zebu concluded they were domesticated in IVC from the earliest times. So, for example, they would have to be traded out to Helmand before any would-be Mazdeans could commit the sin of cattle-raiding.

    Their path is relatively easily traced in a study on 248 inter-continentals:

    Quote Humped zebu-like cattle were introduced to Egypt from the Levant in small numbers and depicted in tombs and temples 3,400–3,000 B.P. but present African zebu cattle populations are the result of multiple introductions. Archaeology suggests that most animals came through eastern rather than northern Africa. Pre-Aksumites, Aksumites and their trading partners in Yemen and the Red Sea brought zebu cattle to the Horn of Africa 2,000–1,600 B.P. following well known sea trade routes from South Asia to the Gulf of Oman. Humped cattle followed Sahelian routes, appearing in West Africa by 1,000 B.P..

    The cryptic presence of Y3B haplotypes in West Africa, found nowhere else, suggests that these haplotypes might represent the oldest zebu lineage introduced to Africa ca. 3,000 B.P. and subsequently replaced in most of the world.

    It is thought that mainly Bull stock was being introduced. More or less, in India, there appear to be a few re-mixings by so-called wild mothers. There is apparently a limited number of head Bulls. They are completely distinct from the Taurus.

    They said the first ones appear to be "introduced" from Syria--Lebanon, which also appears to be the case for the Yamnaya. This however seems to have permanently ceased by around 1,200 B. C. E., whereas the southern route is important enough to witness the "Ships of Tarshish" large enough to cross the Indian Ocean. This remained intact through the Roman Empire.


    Now when we start to think the Rg Veda may involve Gujarat, what this means Arbuda is about 150 km to Dholavira:


    It is suggested that a coastal route existed linking Lothal and Dholavira to Sutkagan Dor on the Makran coast.


    This is the IVC pinnacle as far as we have found. Not the first made, but, prior to our Vedic estimate, it is like the urbanization sites in other countries, coming up ca. 3,500 B. C. E.; in this way it corresponds to Sumeria or Egypt.

    Something happened to it:

    1900–1850 BCE Period of desertion

    1750–1650 BCE Period of desertion


    It is perhaps geometric:

    Quote One of the unique features of Dholavira is the sophisticated water conservation system of channels and reservoirs, the earliest found anywhere in the world, built completely of stone. The city had massive reservoirs, three of which are exposed. They were used for storing fresh water brought by rains or to store water diverted from two nearby rivulets. This clearly came in response to the desert climate and conditions of Kutch, where several years may pass without rainfall.


    The structure consists of ten radial mud-brick walls built in the shape of a spoked wheel. A soft sandstone sculpture of a male with phallus erectus but head and feet below ankle truncated was found in the passageway of the eastern gate. Many funerary structures have been found (although all but one were devoid of skeletons)

    One of the excavated structures was designed in the form of a spoked wheel. The other was also designed in same fashion, but as a wheel without spokes. Although they contained burial goods of pottery, no skeletons were found except for one grave, where a skeleton and a copper mirror were found.


    Curiously, there is another, northwestern, salt flat, which determines the configuration of Gandhara. The archaic highways were discussed in a relative way by Dani 1975:


    Quote The area north of the Salt Range is a world apart from that to its south. In the Frontier Province this Range has defined the eternal rivalry between the north and the south right down to the present time. The Khattaks of the south and the Yusufzais of the north have been perma­nent competitors and rivals. The rocky saltish zone of the Khattaks has nothing to offer them and hence they have been flocking to the army from time immemorial, while the north incorporates the fertile Doab of the lower Kabul Valley, the beautiful land of Swat, the narrow opening of Panchkora and the vast land of Bajaur around Jandul River—all within the ancient Gandhara. Could we expect Gandhara in the southern zone? There is no evidence to support it. It is this Gand­hara, i.e. the Peshawar Valley, that has ex­tended towards Taxila north of the Salt Range. There has also been a reverse traffic. It is along this traffic that the famous Khyber Pass lies, while to the south of the Salt Range lie the Gomel and the Kurrum Passes that take the caravans direct from the Ghazni-Kanda­har side to the Punjab Plain and even beyond to the east.

    He also makes the point that a land route near the Makran coast is highly undesirable, so, i. e. an added impetus for developing maritime capability.

    The very north or Pamir Highway was restricted access, Kabul is linked to Gandhara, and the southern half of Pakistan is its own physical sphere:


    Quote If we sit in the beautiful campus of Peshawar University at the mouth of Khyber Pass or at the cantonment in Quetta at the head of Bolan Pass, we hear the stories and sense the presence of the people coming from Central Asia. No wonder that Qissa Khwani (story-teller’s) Bazar is found in Peshawar. The Ganges Valley—the heart of India—is far away. The western hilly borderland, which has given a concept of limited geographic horizon to the classic Indian writers, is no border for the tribal peoples who have been moving freely up and down the land from time immemorial. The hilly paths are the nerves of their life and the hill plateaus their rendezvous. The Indus Plain is the land of the Abasin—the father river—the holy shrine because it is here that they get food. The valley plain of the Indus cannot be separated from the western hills. The peoples have mixed in history so much that they have cre­ated a new ethnic population. In the remote hill plateaus we may discover a survival of older tribes but their own cousins, when they move down to the plains, soon lose their identity in the developing agricultural-indus­trial complex of the society. But all the same the isolated pockets keep up their individu­ality. The Indus system is forced to look west­ward and establish relations with peoples in Central Asia. This is why land routes have played an important part in the development of cultural activity in the Indus Basin. The Gangetic system may offer its peaceful mission or its socio-cultural and socio-economic re­sources, but the western forces hold the key to the understanding of the Indus people, and it is these forces which decide whether they should participate in this give-and-take from the east or remain confined to its own bounds.


    He hasn't said a word about the Vedas; south of the salt flats, people "come out for food"--which sounds like ready conflict with anyone who thought they were living in this food place.



    Ganges simply has not yielded urbanization prior to around 1,000 B. C. E., although in Karnataka:


    Quote The earliest radiocarbon dates obtained in this area are from ash mounds formed by the burning on these sites of great masses of cow dung inside cattle pens. These indicate that the first settlers were seminomadic and that they had large herds of Brahman (zebu) cattle. The earliest known settlements, which were located at Kodekal and Utnur, date to about 2900 BCE.

    So when we talk about Ayodhya Prthu Ikshvakus, so far, it means their culture was simply agricultural.

    For Mandhata to be important and powerful, it sounds like they must have traded a lot of rice for weapons. Could that be significant and important enough to truck in from Sintashta? Perhaps. But no type of castles, cities, or the weapons has been found around Ayodhya, Prayag, or Kasi that would be anything but post-Vedic.

    This is from season seven of an apparently current Cambridge & Indian, presumably, dig or search:


    Quote The still overwhelmingly preindustrial character of agriculture in the valley offers some scope of inferences regarding the general character of ancient land use.

    For instance, we now know that the third and second millennia B.C. farmers in the West Bengal and Bihar sections of the valley showed a preference for locations either on river-banks or in the close proximity of low-lying lands. The nature of interaction between the valley and the adjoining plataeu sections can be appreciated from the study of surface scatters of valley sites. This opens up the issue of trade and it has been possible to infer that this trade was both on local level and in terms of a distance of 300--400 km or more.

    If their best guess is that by around 3,000 B. C. E., Gangetic "settlements" were trading with IVC sites hundreds of miles away, I don't have a different guess.

    Physically, it all sounds exactly like the Rg Veda.

    As for Sanskrit and its related languages, that resemble the R1a map, I can't explain that. We will try going from the Vedic hymns. Is that what the Druids were doing? We might expect a Corded Ware college of the sort, or the Sintashta Bards. One of the industries in Dholavira was shell carving, which has been found as parts for musical instruments and plectra for the strings.


    Why would you go out in the Rann of Kutch and build a centralized citadel on the Tropic of Cancer?

    It represents probably over 2,000 years of Indic development and then this decision.

    The Rg Veda appears to tell us that Indra took the Arbuda Range, from where there is a physical barrier until you would arrive at Dholavira.

    Avestan would seem to support an antagonistic stripe of humanity from the Pamirs across BMAC, which does not replicate in Indian genetics. We understand a motive and potential for desiring the Sintashta as allies, which does appear to enter the stream of life. So if Dorah is the shortest overall route towards Central Asia, then it looks like India was dealing with this whole thing, down to Lothal and other sites. Such an endeavor could have been going on for centuries when it seems, to me at least, this was probably the general background when the Rishis appeared.

    So far, online, I have been able to find Talageri's line charts about Families going into Books. The initial reaction to "Books" is that Book Two was probably the beginning of the core, and, it is most like a "Book" and it is by Grtsamada whom no one else knows. If I take a "Sukla Yajurveda" approach, as to how the subject material is organized overall, I would say start here, like a primer. It seems to have that very nature.

    If I take a "Krishna Yajurveda" approach, the thousand-ish hymns are kaleidoscopic in an orchestrated way.


    If I ask the Sanskrit language, well, what is "Manu in the Rg Veda?", I don't think any clear answer has been given. In meaning, it is hardly distinguishable from "Mandhata", which is perhaps simply translatable as "the thinker". It seems likely that if we use the other, individually-named Manus, we will get "periods" or "epochs" that follow what could perhaps best be translated "apostolic succession". It is about Speech as taught by "the thinker".

    As it does this, the majority of it is shown to be symbolic or allegorical, and shows the intent of spiritual transformation of a peaceful householder couple in place of war.

    We will attempt to build this--Rg Veda organized by the Manus and the material that is in it, including fundamental misunderstandings of the Anukramani, and, how this is a glaring discrepancy from the Brahmanas, Puranas, and most schools of thought that have attempted to review it. It's pretty close to Talgeri's "relative chronology", except he seems to have ignored several specific things in order to frame an argument that the ethos, as a whole, is not about.

    If we accept it involves Sanskrit Gandhara, which included Kabul and perhaps the Wakhan Corridor, that is as geo-political as it seems to get. It is rather more intriguing how the adversaries might have been defeated by a legion of Gangetic rice farmers. This part is counter-intuitive, but, compared to over a 1,000 IVC sites, there hasn't been found anything but remains of hut villages. However there is a huge implication that the Gangetics were powerful in terms of deities and mantras.

    "Late IVC" probably consisted of the importing of Sintashta technology--and perhaps the whole "country"--connecting all the way to Gangetic human resources. It is, of course, possible that later times saw a peaceful resolution with the Yamnayas, which is why they seem to arrive in "Gandhara Grave Culture". It may have been an "injection". This is of no particular interest for our purposes.

    The origin of Sanskrit is inseparable from Manu and the underlying message. That is how we will attempt to highlight the salient points.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Manu, Ksetrapati and Vacaspati, Sita and other early figures




    I lost track due to a pc failure. I will try replacing the power supply; guess I am lucky enough to have an alternate system available. Nothing on it. I am working on the perspective of "origin and development" based on what is within the Vedic mantras, almost exclusively, without utilizing what has been "said" about it, or, the apparent order or arrangement of Books.

    I have come to the Rg Veda as-it-is with a two-fold purpose. One is disputational, questioning the claims of later literature; starting from Vyasa and Manali, most of this is rendered impossible.

    At the same time, in seeking the value that may be in it, I would say something is present that is far more important than the secondary literature. This is interesting and surpassed my expectations for the origin of Sanskrit Mantra. It is one and the same as the beginning of Speech in Vedic terms. It is not the beginning of the Sanskrit language; it begins its own use of it. We have no prior evidence of the language. Therefor, its apparent origin to us is inextricable from Mantra.


    Observation has shown us that "the Vedas" are an artificial construct. It is not until *within* the epoch of Vedic Speech that the terms "rik" and "saman" become applied to various rulesets on mantras. So these are valid terms but they are not original.

    It is explained this way in one of the most archaic expressions by Godha:


    mantraśrutyaṃ carāmasi


    Carama (चरम) refers to the “ultimate (aim of a man)”, according to the 11th century Jñānārṇava, a treatise on Jain Yoga in roughly 2200 Sanskrit verses composed by Śubhacandra.—Accordingly, “If it is exceedingly desired to avoid descending into hell or solely to obtain the great power of the lord of the 30 gods, if the ultimate aim of a man (carama-pumartha) is desirable, then, pray, what else is to be spoken of? You must perform the doctrine. [Thus ends the reflection on] the doctrine”.


    The Puranas know nothing of her.

    The verse says the practices would be understood as Mantra Veda, regardless of breakdowns into certain styles such as "riks".

    If this is also by Mandhata it must be among the first mantras. He honors Indra and Indra's mother and abruptly ends on a verse by a female Rishi. They are Ikshvakus. We don't know if it makes sense to say Mandhata "is" Manu. But if we take the other approach, it may be difficult to differentiate them. In other cases, "manu" is used for a temporal authority. If it is the case in, let's say, the "first sacrifice", that if two individuals the "king and priest" both participate, you could still say of either "he was the first". Logically that is correct. It does not say "alone, the only one present". It is possible that more were present, such as Seven Sages, who may not be specifically named.

    We don't know if he was Manu. The role of Mandhata is said to have been to conquer the northwest, which was not permanent and came up again as a problem for the Bharatas.

    He either had to do with the very beginning, or, there is no way he would be accepted as a Rishi unless he had been consecrated by the system.


    Ikshavkus are Angirases, so, the "first event" may have to do with Bharatas becoming Angirases.


    This is more realistic. Rather than a hypothetical background of "first man", there is a fragmentary trail of a "first event", which is the substrate of the larger work. It is less impressive being able to have something from times of abundant royal support, and so the retention of anything at all has been most fortunate. It is not so "ancient" that the lore seems bizarrely out of place in the hands of its wizards. It is fragmentary enough that we understand it to be confusing, that there are legendary uses of familiar names like Atri and Kutsa. It means those recorded Rishis are simply *named for* their antecedents. The main person who is clearly not a re-naming is Kasyapa, he is not in any older hymns, but he is significant, perhaps for re-summoning the Trksi or Ikshvakus.


    Coming at this for the purposes of Buddhist Mantra, I find the primeval doctrine of the Veda *is* Sanskrit mantra, in the words of an associate of Mandhata, who was Buddha's previous incarnation.

    The reason for this, so to speak, is Atharva Veda, which is not a literary format like the others, but that the person doing it is at a level of proficiency and accomplishment. This means the system is "portable", because it consists of mantras, which is the value on a personal level.


    Moreover, the "system of Manu" is overtly domestic. It may be the correct "Gemini" in the Sanskrit meaning, "the couple". Well, if it is about happiness and immortality, I can't argue. If this were a small feat, not much would be posted about it. You can't "become" an Arya, or this does not appear to be something outsiders join. We want to think of the cultivation of mantra and how to make it come to life for non-Sanskrit speakers. If you were, perhaps, say, Kanva, without necessarily the most staggering intellect in the world, possibly a foreign, non-speaker, who, for example, cared, then taking it seriously would help you.

    So far, it appears the singular term "Manu" is used in the time of Dirghatamas/Bharadvaja/Divodasa. We can say they begin the "chronicle" of the main corpus of hymns. I don't think the Rg Veda can explain its growth from an original node to a standing network. It seems not to have had difficulty in doing so. What looks to us like sparse and patchy information about "Manu", "Atri", etc., suggests to me at least a widespread knowledge of these subjects in folklore.



    I have been contemplating whether something like "Manusa" would be a more appropriate term for "general follower" than for instance "Arya". We found it doesn't really mean "descendant of the first man" but something more like "member of the community by choice".

    I came across something that did not really resolve the "manav-" stem:


    The Atharvaveda describes four types of treatment. Namely Ātharvaṇī Cikitsā, Āṅgirasī Cikitsā, Daivī Cikitsā, and Mānavī Cikitsā.



    Does it? "Cikitsa" is rather miniscule in the Rg Veda, and has been translated differently, such as for Gotama:


    pra cikitsā gaviṣṭau ||


    defend us (from our enemies) in battle.


    or Garga:


    bṛhaspate pra cikitsā gaviṣṭāv

    direct us, Bṛhaspati, in our search for cattle



    This is a bit unclear; but, in the medical list, we find a certain primordial association. If "Manu" is like a sliding scale in Sanskrit for "civilized", wouldn't "Atharvan" nearly invalidate this?

    One is not quite sure why the lineage head would have a "foreign", perhaps Avestan name (or title). So we were automatically told. The "Athravan" however has a different role, probably derived Fire from Indian Agni, and some interpret them as Vasisthas from Kashmir. I misunderstood something--Avestan K1 text is just from year 1323. There are older fragments at Dunhuang. Talageri thinks they were in Punjab due to:


    ...the reference in the Avesta to Manuša (the lake Mānuṣa referred to in the Rigveda, III.23.4, as being located at the vara ā p ṛ thivyāh, ―the best place on earth‖, in Kurukṣetra.


    Maybe...the reference is from the paramount Devasravas and Devavata Bharati, and, Sayana doesn't know of any such "lake", he thinks it means "riverbanks", since this is where men normally inhabit.

    We see it pushes both ways...Atharvan is Zoroastrian, or, Avestan is derived from Sanskrit. I don't know. I'm not confident it would give reliable information towards the Vedic period. At most it has seventeen Gathas. Like an upa-mandala. They are supposed to be tough to translate! Here is a batch of Gathas that I would say have nothing to do with Rishi Vasistha in the indicated area. He sounds somewhat like a Vedic Rishi. However it is punctuated by a distant-ness, as if he is straining to preach, or as if people are uninterested or too dull-witted to care about him. I am not sure this particular problem is found in the Rg Veda. He may be a similar kind of Rishi, and it is closely related by apparently doing Soma Offering, but if we look at Avestan Cows' Lament it does not look Indic. If we tried to say it was "culturally similar" then why only his Gathas.

    The summary of these is not that bad. At least it does not seem confrontational, and, more interestingly, is about the emanation of mind. "Kavi" in that language is a "chief", not a "poet", so this customary closeness is of questionable value.

    It may be tangential to the late Vedic period. It may have to do with why the "books" were compiled as such. It is arguably a later text that has added to the Gathas a fantasy origin that was not there. Then a similar philosophical school must happen in India. The aftermath seems similar. The Gathas lack an "Angra Mainyu" as was designated later.

    This historical misreading also conflates "Bhrgus" with "Bhargavas". In the Rg Veda you can usually tell one from the other.

    I would think it liberates Atharvan from any obligation on having to answer to the Zoroastrians.

    The "Vedic mythical history" is the simple fact of having preserved anything from Atharvan and a few generations of early Rishis prior to the "dedicated recording". Atharva Gotra is already in Book Six.

    The same role of "first" is also held by Yama and Manu. It may be a shifting emphasis, i. e. Yama perhaps "twin" refers to him in Heaven, "Manu" perhaps as a general "teacher of men"; nevertheless, in some cases, the founder Rishi is Atharvan. And, not to jump to conclusions, it may be that Atharvan is perhaps the same as Matarisvan, rather than separated as per later legends.

    If this has to do with "Lord of Wind", Vayu or Vata, the Vatarasas, there is also the Muni, which appears to be a particularly revered type of Sage, having powers. Both the Puranas and Buddhism have difficulty expressing who the incarnations of Wind Family are supposed to be. Here in Rg Veda it is obscure but it is potent. So far I don't think it said the founding Sage "is" Fire, it says he draws it out or ignites it.


    He is involved with the first recovery of cattle according to Gotama:


    Atharvan first by sacrifices discovered the path (of the stolen cattle); then the bright sun, the cherisher of pious acts, was born. Atharvan regained the cattle; Kāvya (Uṣanās) was associated with him.


    Rather than "Manu", he is described similarly by Saryata Manava:


    “Inasmuch as Bṛhaspati, the showerer (of benefits) and the kindred of Soma (the Visvedevās),bestow food (for the support) of people, Atharvan was the first to invigorate (the gods) with sacrifices; with strength the gods and Bhṛgus discovered (the cattle).”


    We find him combined in a violent imprecation by Payu:


    “Cast, Agni, upon the two roaring (rākṣasas) that eye wherewith you behold the Yātudhāna striking with his hoof; like Atharvan with celestial radiance burn down the ignorant (rākṣasas), who assails truth with falsehood.”


    That has no characteristic of "a tribe". It is a "kind of person", or, dishonest behavior. The hymn is so repetitive that Raksohan is effectively a name of Agni. Destroying the "rakshashas" appears mainly to be about Liars and Deceivers. Our neighbors, similar if not the same people. They perhaps are aligned with "idiots":


    Kimīdins: a kind of rākṣasas; Nirukta 6.11: those who wander about saying kimidānīm, what now? or kim idam, what is this?


    The terminology comes from the son of Atharvan, Brhaddiva Atharvana:

    “Verily the pious praise you, (Indra), the giver of wealth in your repeated exhilaration; spread out for us resolute Indra, great and durable (affluence); may the malignant yātudhānas never harm you.”



    Vasistha uses it for a man or woman of deceptions.

    Agastya equates them to "unseen venomous creatures".


    It is malleable, metaphorical, or esoteric, similar to "Amura" or "disoriented", it is a bad quality that seems to keep re-appearing and so therefor may be associated with thoughtforms or "spirits".

    Obviously, it is banished by some of the most primeval Rishis; does this make sense in any context of Matarisvan being the role of Atharvan?


    They are close according to Bharadvaja:


    “The mighty maruts have seized upon him on the lap of the waters (in firmament), and men have acknowledged him as their adorable sovereign; mātariśvan, the messenger of the gods, has brought Agni vaiśvānara (hither) from the distant (sphere of the) sun.”


    In the first line of a hymn by Nodhas:


    Mātariśvan brought, as a friend, to Bhṛgu, the celebrated Vahni...


    In the words of Visvamitra:


    “The benignant and long-lived deities have discovered you, Agni, when required to go against their constant and assembled foes, hidden in the waters like a lion (in a cave).”

    “Mātariśvan therefore brought for the gods from afar, Agni, hiding of himself, and generated by attrition, as (a father brings back) a fugitive (son).”


    It is even more intense in the words of Vatsapri:


    “Agni, whom heaven and earth engendered, (whom) the waters and Tvaṣṭā, and the Bṛghus by their powers (begot),; the adorable one, whom Mātariśvan first, and the gods fabricated as the object of worship of Manu.”


    and even moreso from Sadhri Vairupa:


    “The two sources of heat (Agni and Āditya) spreading to the limit (of the horizon), have pervaded the threefold (universe); Mātariśvan has come to give them pleasure; (when) the shining (rays) reached the adorable (sun), having the brilliancy of the Sāman, sustaining (the universe), they attained the water of heaven.”


    Matarisvan also acts as a guarantor of the bond for Surya Savitri.

    This part is the wedding mantra of the Grhya Sutras. The Rik ends there but the Sutra continues.


    The Sutra does not include the "precursor", i. e. the arising of Savitri as the wife of "the Sun" or of Pusan or the Aswins.

    No attention is paid to the singular invocation of goddess Destri, humbly glossed by Sayana as Sarasvati. She has this meaning:


    Deṣṭṛ (देष्टृ).—[masculine] (deṣṭrī) [feminine] pointer, guide, instructor.


    and spontaneously appears in the middle of human marriage.

    It invokes the Visvedevas, the Waters--Apah, and:


    sam mātariśvā saṃ dhātā sam u deṣṭrī



    The literal translation would be: 'He salves together (samañjayati) the two . . . May the waters salve together (samañjantu) our hearts.'


    A great amount of understanding of the Rg Veda is to be gained from the "primordial love story":


    Pururavas and Urvasi


    and the "divine marriage":

    Surya Savitri


    This is what is compiled in Sukla Yajurveda with Atharvan, Manu, and Waters.

    We would suggest that text is "shaped" to configure something that is in the Rg Veda but "strewn". Some reviewers think the Yajuses or rites come from pre-Vedic practices, which seem entirely possible, i. e. especially the wedding is of a "timeless" nature, which the Veda has augmented.

    The Upanishadic tradition starts by simply quoting the end of Sukla Yajurveda. That is how it attaches personal experience as "yogic philosophy", similarly to Astrology or Jyotisa Vedanga being an "accompanying science" that does not consist of Vedic mantras. The mantras demonstrate some kind of Yoga practice attained by Yama and others into the Svarga Loka of the Devas. This does not happen to be explained particularly well. It does, however, elucidate Visvedevas, that is, multiple kinds or classes of Devas. I am not sure it is rigidly strict, "there are thirty-three, exactly, and only", although it is indicative of such patterns, it says their number, name, and appearance may change.

    One of the most descriptive hymns is on Yellow Indra, so you might be able to call that "frequent, normal", but you can't really limit him. He may be called Purandar, Vrtrahan, Maghavan, and other synonyms.

    The axiom for original Vedic practices is that the Sages' Families or Gotras are distinguished by Apri Hymns, which are slightly different impressions of "Visvedevas" architecture.

    The interest is in how the meaning of the hymns transports an unknown mystical experience of the most divinized Sages into the realm of the ordinary person.


    This combines at least two values, the idea "to acquire wealth without war", along with the postulate that happiness depends on deities. It is something internal, that you can broadcast and share, but it comes from within, this being the lasting or permanent way. It is the same to call them intelligence and vigor. Visvedevas have forms and times that represent seasons and so forth, however, they also correspond to one's inner conditions.

    By looking in what I might describe as an Aristotelian process, in every detail, in every mention of Soma, the opinion is formed it was necessary to conquer one or more countries and seize these fields. Or you believe the Zoroastrians "contributed" to the Syrian Aryans. I get the sense that most of this was never true.

    It may have been a beverage, but, as with other things, there is a mental version, above and beyond that.

    By just sticking to the same subject, The Marriage of Savitri is the very place we will find terrestrial Soma is less important than the symbolic kind:


    Quote Soma is stationed in the vicinity of these Nakṣatras.

    He who has drunk thinks that the herb which men crush is the Soma; (but) that which the Brāhmaṇas know to be Soma,, of that no one partakes.

    “Concealed by means of coverings, protected by the Bārhats, O Soma, you abide listening to the grinding-stones; no terrestrial being partakes of you.”

    Vāyu is the guardian of Soma, the maker of years and months.

    The same principle is explained also in Lopamudra's Dampati:

    What has been drunk in my heart: antito hṛtsu pītam, drunk mentally, not actually

    and a sort of transitional expression from Apala Atreyi:


    ...this Soma pressed by my teeth...



    Most of Savitri's hymn is primarily mental, and, would seem more familiar if after readings of Aswins hymns using a mental chariot.

    That may resemble a bit of education before marriage.


    Two consecutive pages of History discover the proximal natures of Matarisvan, Atharvan, Angiras, and Yama.


    According to a work on Hymns:


    It may also be mentioned that the
    same function of bringing down fire is ascribed in one text ( vi., 16,
    13 ) to Atharvan, whose name is connected with fire, like that of
    Matarisvan ; and also that the sisters of Atharvan are called Matarisvaris in x., 120, 9 /



    which sounds unfamiliar; the actual passage is:


    svasāro mātaribhvarīr

    "sisters abiding in the mother"


    which has to do with natural forces providing strength to Indra, not a human personal relationship to Atharvan.

    We begin to mention these things and notice Matarisvan is practically absent from the Puranas. There is however another reference using the version available on Ancient Voice:


    3 To Matarisvan first thou, Agni, wast disclosed, and to Vivasvan through thy noble inward power


    which compares to Hiranyastupa I.31:



    tvam agne prathamo mātariśvana āvir bhava sukratūyā vivasvate |

    Agni, pre-eminent over the wind, become manifest to the worshipper, in approbation of his worship.


    The first appears more reliable, or, i. e. reinforcing towards the near role of Matarisvan and Atharvan.

    He is also present but not typecast in Juhu Brahmajaya X.109, which is like a Vak teaching with respect to Brhaspati. And we could say this is perhaps being done a few ways, with respect to various deities, in other areas. Indrani or Saci Paulomi simply takes over Indra. The "final", so to speak, Vak Devi Sukta, is in turn a complete repository of Visvedevas in detail.


    The Three or Tisra Devi of the Apri Hymns may be understood as Vak in the Three Worlds or three stages of manifestation.


    Matarisvan in X.109 led to Sayana's comment:


    Juhū is vāc, speech, the wife of Brahmā. Vācaspati, the lord of speech, who is Bṛhaspati, is also said to be the husband of Juhū or Vāc.


    The translation adds Soma where it is not called for:


    the source of happiness, (Soma), the divine waters

    mayobhūr āpo devīḥ


    This usage is correct:


    ...adoring all the gods; he becomes a portion of the gods; therefore, Bṛhaspati obtained his wife (formerly) brought him by Soma, as the gods receive an offering.


    She was restored by Devas and by:


    manuṣyā


    The hymn is terribly awkward if you read it as Brahma, a separate, additional deity, but not if you say, brahma, the priest, the mantrin, which is Brhaspati here (and is the standard early example). It specifically names him as an actor, not as Vacaspati.


    The reason for that is most likely in both Yajur Vedas, it is Visvakarman--Tvastr, and again through the Aranyakas and Brahmanas.

    This is accurate to X.81:


    vācas patiṃ viśvakarmāṇam


    It may be Soma in IX.101.


    And there is an unusual expression from Rsabha Vairaja, who, after commanding Vacaspati, refers to himself as:


    viśvakarmeṇa


    i. e. "like Visvakarma", which was simply translated as "equal to the task".


    What is rather interesting about X.81 is, that, while Visvakarma fashioned Heaven and Earth, currently, when offered Soma, he worships Heaven and Earth.

    So, the epithet is not given to Brhaspati, although one might say that Visvakarman is "obscure" compared to a Rishi who is probably known to all the Gotras. The title is not used for him, except perhaps implicitly or indirectly. Visvakarman would be the deity of it.


    The name used by Rishi Brhaspati is Brahmanaspati, which is abundant in Rg Veda, particularly Book Two begins with it, One of the more significant functions for him is:

    Debt collector rnancaya


    Rishi Brhaspati uses Brahmanaspati for Deva Creation.


    Brahmanaspati is simply identical to Tvastr in X.53, or is an extension of him.


    Kanva invokes Brahmanaspati with Sunrta Vak Devi. He does not separately mention Tvastr, but says the other deities, Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Aryaman, are propitiated in the prayers originating from Brahmanaspati. Same concept as Brhaspati's.


    This has its reflection in Sama Veda:


    1. The God who giveth wealth accept your full libation poured to, him!
    Pour ye it out, then fill the vessel full again, for so the God regardeth you.

    2. Let Brahmanaspati come forth, let Sunrita the Goddess come,


    Among others on Ancient Voice. Another example is Krishna Yajur Veda Brahmanaspati Suktam.


    Vasistha uses the names somewhat alternately though saying Brhaspati is the offspring of Rodasi.



    II.23 alternates between Brhaspati and Brahmanaspati for the same deity. Or does it? Towards the end, we are given something of a progression:


    “Tvaṣṭā engendered you (chief) amongst all beings, (whence) you are the reciter of many a holy hymn: Brahmaṇaspati acknowledges a debt to the performer of a sacred rite; he is the acquitter (of the debt), and the destroyer of the oppressor.”

    “When Bṛhaspati, descendant of Aṅgiras, for your glory, Parvata had concealed the herd of kine, you did set them free, and with thine associate, Indra, did send down the ocean of water which had been enveloped by darkness.”



    or:

    For Tvastar, he who knows each sacred song, brought thee to life...





    We have come back on this three times. Grtsamada does not invent the term Brahmanaspati. However he magnifies it greatly. It is at the beginning of his Book and then in bulk in the middle, which we know as mandala-speak for "this is important". There are other ways, but, it is familiar, to have the main topic in the middle with the rest opened around it in book form or mirror image, like a candelabra.

    Most of his verses are praise, although in one instance, Brahmanaspati is Father:


    devānāṃ yaḥ pitaram


    which matches the Deva Creation. The Brahmanaspati persona is discussed only with respect to Vala. He is successful due to friendship with Indra.

    The main key to the hypostasis is as given in the comment to II.23:


    tvaṣṭā, further explained as the sage who created Brahmaṇaspati by the efficacy of the sāma


    "Explained", as in that is what the verse itself appears to say, not "further" as in coming from another source.

    Similarly, it could be taken that Tvastr prepares the Axe that Etasa Brahmanaspati uses. This is parallel to the riddle of Tvastr as his own son Visvakarman working on the universe.


    Here is the comment on a similar verse by Ayasya:


    Brahmaṇaspati: lord of praise, i.e., of the three Vedas, the Ṛk, Yajus. and Sāman



    Then we see in some Upanishadic notes:

    Essence=rasa; limbs=Anga. This one here (Aya) is within the mouth (Asya).


    But...this is a person. And this is how it goes in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad:


    19. It is called Ayāsya Āṅgirasa, for it is the essence of the members (of the body). The vital force is indeed the essence of the members. Of course it is their essence. (For instance), from whichever member the vital force departs, right there it withers. Therefore this is of course the essence of the members.

    20. This alone is also Bṛhaspati (lord of the Ṛc). Speech is indeed Bṛhatī (Ṛc) and this is its lord. Therefore this is also Bṛhaspati.

    21. This alone is also Brahmaṇaspati (lord of the Yajus.) Speech is indeed Brahman (Yajus), and this is its lord. Therefore this is also Brahmaṇaspati.


    So...are they like Vak Devi?

    The Upanishad is saying that Prana is Ayasya Angirasa. The ensuing deities are similar, related powers of mastering Speech, the art of Vacaspati. Grtsamada uses Asya for Agni as the Mouth of Visvedevas with Kavi as the Tongue.

    The Rg Veda is, in a sense, worshipping the Sama Veda.

    In the mantric sense, Tvastr is the origin of the potency of Brahmanaspati, who is the origin of Devas, such as Brhaspati, who intercesses with human form.

    Grtsamada strongly follows Brahmanaspati, whom he calls Ganapati. This is the only sense it is accurate to the Rg Veda. The "hosts" are therefor Visvedevas. Same as the Deva Creation Hymn.

    Vacaspati corresponds to Brahmanaspati or Visvakarman, primarily or in total, whereas Brhaspati is an "application" largely oriented towards Wealth and/or Hidden Cattle.


    In one of the greatest and most direct Visvedevas hymns, he places Tvastr with the Gnas commented as meters.

    It is intriguing, because although Tvastr is understood as animation of all cosmic form, he remains fairly humble, not seeking much besides a polite Offering and a memory of his function as Nestr:


    abhi yajñaṃ gṛṇīhi no gnāvo neṣṭaḥ piba ṛtunā | tvaṃ hi ratnadhā asi ||


    “Neṣṭā (= Tvaṣṭā), with your spouse, commend our sacrifice to the gods; drink with Ṛtu, for you are possessed of riches.”


    as spoken by Medhatithi.


    He then very nearly quotes:


    “Draviṇodas desires to drink with the Ṛtu from the cup of Neṣṭā (= tvaṣṭā or one of 16 officiating priests); hasten, (priest, to the hall of offering); present the oblation, and depart.”


    Grtsamada:


    ...drink, Draviṇodas, along with the Ṛtus, the Soma, the offering of the Neṣṭā.


    Grtsamada is the one who teaches these multiple roles of ritual performers.

    Part of the concept to mantra is that the energy, Agni Vaisvanara, conveys the mantric force into the Deva Loka, which induces deities such as Tvastr, Mitra, Varuna, to enact a service on one's behalf. So you are combining the Apri Hymn which evokes their forms into our world, with an attempt to interface in the higher world.

    So far I would say the male deity is incrementally advanced forms of Speech, beginning with Dharmic Rta or the civilized and moral aspect, and growing through these contemplative and symbolic mantras. Fairly close to a study from Sikkim and Bodoland:

    Quote Dharma is a systematic Sanskrit concept that includes traditions, obligation, morals, laws, order, and justice. It was a unique concept of dharma that kept checks and balances on sovereign officials and prevented them from becoming autocratic and anarchist. It also provided the common man with a protective shield against the dictatorship of sovereign officials. Ordinary citizens had more privileges and fewer responsibilities relative to the state's highest officials. The greater the authority, the less his privileges were, and the more extensive his responsibilities became. This research is an exegetical analysis of ancient Indian Vedic and later Vedic literature and is primarily aimed at deciphering some of the essential ideas of the rights found in these texts, which are akin to contemporary human rights.





    It is at Ayasya's X.67 where we are finally given a prose summary of Vala:


    Quote Ṛṣi Aṅgirasa had a son named Bṛhaspati, who became the purohita of Indra, for the instruction of the gods. His cows were stolen by the Paṇis, and taken to Vala's city, and hidden in three places. Indra urged Bṛhaspati to go with the Maruts and look for them. Bṛhaspati begot the sun to light up the cave where the cows were hidden (events referred to in this sūkta). Bṛhaspati took away the cows after kiling the demon Vala and the Paṇis who chased him; seven-headed ceremony: i.e., accompanied by seven bands of the Maruts, or having seven metres.

    Well, yes, approximately so; but the point is this is a very early event, and, onion-layered, has more to say than just being a repeat of Vrtra. The Cows are rescued, so is Usas and Surya and/or Agni.


    Ayasya's own hymns are primordial about Vala, the same with Sarama who calls him the chief Angiras. He is also remembered in a brief hymn from Anga Aurava who adds Rjisvan and Pipru (and Kutsa). This verse is followed by Usas "leaving her car", wary of Indra's Vajra. Incrementally, this is telling us something went weird, shortly after the release of Usas from Vala.

    Ayasya significantly combines the image of solar rays penetrating darkness with Brhaspati uniting Dampati or The Couple. He uses a phrase for "Brahmanaspati and company" one time:


    brahmaṇas patir vṛṣabhir varāhair gharmasvedebhir


    qualitatively similar:

    bṛhaspatiṃ vṛṣaṇaṃ


    and he has the allegory of Name in a Cave. Here we are not completely sure it is "a cave" since it is the same word for "secret", "concealed", "hiding place", and not that many cows literally go in most caves very easily. They are said to be "in three places". Sayana says they are "rain" and the verse says they are thrown upward like a meteor (Ulka).

    Ayasya's hymns are what is expanded by Grtsamada, along with more about Usas. Anga Aurava is a "timer" since the sense is he is a follower of Uru Angiras, who is the father of Brhaspati and Ucathya. So we would think this Rishi Brhaspati is not necessarily the same as Brhaspati the primeval legend (same as for Kutsa). The Rishi primarily speaks of Visvedevas and Vak.

    Ayasya and Uru Angiras are probably the top of the chain of traceable Rishis. Ayasya implies he is the "grandson" of ? We don't know if he means of Atharvan or Manu, or the first generation of Angiras Sages. Adrighu has also been called the chief of the "Gvas". We might be able to say the chieftaincy goes Dadhyan --> Adhrigu --> Ayasya. I am not sure the office is even mentioned again.


    Ayasya's hymns are followed by those of Sumitra Vadhryasva, who uses plain Manu in an ordinary way, and gives what becomes the Bharatas' Apri Hymn, which tells the Tisra Devi to accept the sacrifice like Manu's, and that Tvastr has become the associate of the Angirases due to the oblation.

    Then there is Brhaspati, and Visvakarman and Surya Savitri are very close.

    Vamadeva uses "brahma" for buttered cakes than i. e., can be eaten by the "mouth" of flames, with Stoma as hymns that are sung or chanted, Soma as a distinct form of Offering, and then silent prayer is Uktha.

    That is what I would call Japa, or, recognizable as the Veda incorporating a subtle or passive practice.

    It is an example of "Speech" that is not clearly under the auspices of Brhaspati or Brahmanaspati. So, for "Vacaspati", I, at least, get a sense of "totality", inclusive of all mundane speech, as well as "silent prayer" or Japa.

    Anga Aurava is relating the events to Indra, who is the future performer--I am not sure Brhaspati defeats anything other than Vala.

    We are trying to "remember" this particular event, because it is a story arc from this liberation of Usas, through escapades along the Beas River, to allegorical and metaphysical changes to the human being. This involves the Aswins and the Divine Marriage of Surya Savitri. This is going on "around" the Trikadruka rite.



    Reason being we individuals are Vacaspati and Vak Devi.

    It is trying to impel that kind of Speech with an other-worldly perception.





    The reminder is that Tvastr is in every Apri Hymn, even if barely recognized in later literature. But reinforced by the proliferation of the Samjna and Aswins story. However even in the Veda the very mention of his wife is rare. Reciprocally, this suggests that knowing his daughter well is rare for mortals, she must have various emanations that are represented by her shifting partnerships. Yet the person in Debt is considered dead to her. That seems to be the first meaning on the mundane level. And then we are introduced to awareness of a type of divine debt. This one however is voluntarily "discharged" by the practice.


    In X.53, the Devas tell Agni:


    ...become Manu, generate the people of heaven.

    manur bhava janayā daivyaṃ


    There is a verse for a bride to cross the Asmanvati or Rocky River, then Tvastr, followed by:


    “Verily being sages, (Ṛbhus) sharpen the instruments with which you fabricate the cups for the nectaṛ; Do you, who are wise, prepare the mysterious paths whereby the gods have attained to immortality.”


    Rbhus *may* be intended here, although the only persons actually mentioned are:


    kavayaḥ

    It is in a group of three "conversational" hymns, beginning with Agni hiding in the Waters:


    Yama recognized you, who have adorable rays, blazing from your ten hiding-places.

    Manu (is) desirous of offering sacrifice...


    being the reactions to his concealment. Agni himself refers to his elder brother as expiring from Havirvahana--death by taking offerings to the Devas. So Agni does not want to be the Hotra. They have to coax him out with a blessing of Immortality. Aswins are his Ardhavaryus. He grants the Vajra to Indra. It ends on the mystical number 3,339 Devas.


    We may attempt another translation about how is Agni using Etasa Brahmanaspati:


    Tvastar, most deft of workmen, knew each magic art, bringing most blessed bowls that hold the drink of Gods.

    His axe, wrought of good metal, he is sharpening now, wherewith the radiant Brahmanaspati will cut.
    Now, O ye Sapient Ones, make ye the axes sharp wherewith ye fashion bowls to hold the Amrta.


    There is an individual Etasa as given formulaicly by Grtsamada:


    “The divine Indra, when lauded (by Etaśa), humbled the Sun (in behalf) of the mortal who offered to him the libation; for the munificent Etaśa presented him with mysterious and inestimable riches; as (a father gives) his portion (to a son).”


    Then from Two Kanvas at the beginning of Book Eight:


    “When Sūrya harassed Etaśa, Śatakratu conveyed (to his aid) Kutsa, the son of Arjuni, with his two prancing horses (swift) as the wind, and stealthily approached the irresistible Gandharva.”



    And most specifically by Nodhas:


    “To him has that praise been offered which he, sole (victor over his foes), and lord of manifold wealth, prefers (to receive) from those (who praise him). Indra has defended the pious sacrificer Etaśa when contending with Sūrya, the son of Svaśva.”


    Elsewhere, "svasva" is only found in its generic meaning, "good horse". "Etasa" is very nearly the same, such as Nidhruvi Kasyapah:


    “The purified (Soma) harnesses the horse of the sun to travel through the firmament to man.”


    So there is no way to place Svasva as a Vedic character who is anything more than mentioned once, but the other instances of "Etasa" support the listing of Etasa and Rishi Asrnga in the Vatarasanas, which is not reflected in the published Anumramani. This version of "Seven Sages" is potentially archaic, if Etasa is paired with Kutsa.


    Vatarasanas being Munis, Ancient History through 1200 calls this "Kesi Sukta":


    Many aspects of the personality of the muni are rather obscure but
    it is obvious that he is described as kesi (long-haired) and that he
    used ochre-robes and had distinctive condition of ecstasy (mauneya). His association with the Rudra cult is also quite clear.



    It is remembered in Taittiriya Aranyaka and considered the root of Sramana traditions.

    That study finds it "unusually set apart" from what appears to be the mainstream.

    It has not directly connected "Lord of Wind" Matarisvan, and so this group remains obscure. Curiously, we find in the Anukramani of the Ajmer edition:

    Matarisvan Kanva VIII 64


    which is usually by Pragatha.

    Same list perhaps clearer attributing one hymn to this Rishi.

    From a complete English version it is number 54. Here from the complete Rg Veda scan, we can rapidly find examples such as Agastya I.190:


    Brhaspati-for he laid out the expanses- was, at the sacrifice, vast Matarisvan.


    So yes it is Matarisvan for VIII.54. But the hymn does not have this topic. It refers to descendants of Praskanva. The "54" link is authors and verses all on one page, where Matarisvan is fairly consistent in its usage, and difficult to discern from Atharvan or Manu. Dirghatamas I.164 is plain difficult:


    46 There is that One God they call by so many names:

    Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, Garumat, Yama, Matarisvan.


    The One is supposed to be Surya, which makes more sense. The "same" sun is easily divisible by months or seasons; which we perceive as different moods or aspects. Or, any man may perceive "two worlds", but only the Yajna participant can see the third, the "most solar", which has not been valued for incredible temperatures or nuclear reactions, but just as its light.

    Agastya placed Matarisvan in a relatively short hymn, where Brhaspati contemplates Tara and Waters:


    bṛhaspatis tara āpaś


    You get the Buddhist Rg Veda by starting at the end of Book One.

    Agastya at the very least uses the terms "tara" and "mayuri" in consecutive hymns, in the exact same way they arise in Buddhist liturgy.

    So far I am not aware of this anywhere else--"tara" does have that generic meaning well over a hundred times, but is not always the object of Brhaspati's contemplation; while "mayuri" is too detailed to even attempt to pass off as syntax or a minor image. These Vedic Mayuris are Agru, or unmarried. Sayana is not sure how to deal with them. I would say it would be dangerous to take Agastya literally, and important to take him symbolicly in terms of the Transmutation of Poison into Ambrosia. Seven Sages after the Vatarasana Munis are similar, as they promote Medicine:


    viśvabheṣajo


    although it is Vayu they are dealing with, not Rudra.


    These Mayuris are called Seven Sisters but not literally rivers:


    triḥ sapta mayūryaḥ sapta svasāro agruvaḥ |


    They precede a Mongoose.

    They may be after ninety-nine (rivers), because there is such a "border", and that verse is only a number. Here if it says "Peahens" I'm not sure we should automatically change it.


    Agastya's "number":

    navānāṃ navatīnāṃ


    Compared to Kaksivan:


    tvaṃ sūro harito rāmayo nṝn bharac cakram etaśo nāyam indra | prāsya pāraṃ navatiṃ nāvyānām api kartam avartayo 'yajyūn ||


    “Stop, Sūra, your yellow horses, for this Etaśa, Indra, drags the wheel; having driven those who offer no sacrifices to the opposite bank of the ninety rivers, you compel them (to do) what is to be done.”



    In this verse, "navya-" is taken as "rivers", where Agastya has "nava-", being "nine". The rest of the hymns are replete with ninety *or* ninety-nine as "Forts", "Vrtras", "Horses", "Rivers", and perhaps other things, it is taken as a colorful expression rather than actual count. Agastya says "ninety-nine destroyers of poison", which may be the rivers Kaksivan uses for the entire map.


    Considering what from the Rg Veda may have been compiled into popular services, same version as used on Ancient Voice, Sama Veda on one page shows the relative appearances Kanva -- a dozen, Vasistha, four, Kasyapa, two, Atri/Atreya, none, Gautama none.

    In the example above, "Matarisvan Kanva" is most likely a re-naming from "original Matarisvan". He personally uses "Vata" for "the Wind". He appears to mention the only Rg Vedic "Samvara" and then almost certainly to "Krsa" of the next hymn:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): kṛśaḥ kāṇvaḥ [kṛśa kāṇva];
    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): praskaṇvasya dānastutiḥ


    This itself continues to:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): pṛṣadhraḥ kāṇvaḥ [pṛṣadhra kāṇva];
    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): praskaṇvasya dānastutiḥ


    “Dasyave-vṛka, the son of Putakrata, has given to me ten thousand from his own store.”


    To correct our spelling once and for all:


    Agni has gleamed forth brilliantly with his bright flame as Sura, he has gleamed forth in heaven as Sūrya.

    Otherwise, their work does not tell us much, besides being a sign of success. It may not be out of the question that "Matarisvan" is a name of Praskanva. In any case, they are close. Nothing about the use of the name resembles the Vatarasanas. Of course we expect them to proceed via Atharva Veda. The overwhelming majority of the colossus of hymns is, sociologically, conducive to householding, but in the sense the Veda supports alternate choices such as monasticism or perhaps specialized study, that is evident with these "non-institutional" Rishis. Whereas the Kanvas themselves practically constitute a "central order".

    It seems like it was pretty large, and, we have not attempted to cope with the mechanism of how the Rg Veda particularly came to be identical across almost all of modern India.


    The Rg Veda lends its own support towards Mandhata as a primevally important figure. Not as well-attested as the others. Mandhata has a role or title in the words of Kutsa:


    Kṣetrapati = lord, either of fields or of the earth.


    Then, provided the Kanvas are a type of gateway, we find him there. According to Nabhaka, he defeated the Dasyus with that Agni:

    who takes refuge in all rivers


    and by whom he is particularly Exalted:

    Thus has a new hymn been addressed to Indra and Agni, as was done by my father, by Mandhātā, by Aṅgirasa...


    In this example, there is the tone of expectancy towards "Manu", or something like that, which seems to place Mandhata right at the origin source.

    From this sense, I would take it that Ikshvakus and Aryas, or Solar and Lunar, etc., both come from "Angirases" of this same cluster. There perhaps was an original Rishi Vasistha, and this name was simply passed down the Ikshvaku branch, and then the recorded Rishi Vasistha has something quite unusual to say about his personal origin or birth.

    I am not yet sure we can reduce the super-position. Although there was a "first ritual", it may not be possible to resolve whether this was held by one individual having seven names, or, seven individuals equally qualified for the title of "first". Mandhata's title has the slight connotation of a farmer or landlord of the agricultural type, suggestive of the "agricultural" Gangetic region. If one contends that Nabhaka's verse is intended towards Agni Angirasa, of whom Mandhata is the extractor, then suddenly he is the same as Manu. For the sake of flexibility, I think it may mean "an Angiras Rishi", because the point he is making is about new praise.

    It should be obvious that if this practice expands over a wide geographical region, over several generations of human beings, it is going to swell to over-capacity, you would have to tie it off and say "this is a galaxy of knowledge", and compile it and set the standard. That seems like a normal urbanized outcome of something that probably would not have mattered to the first celebrants in a secret cave. Most likely, the Kanvas were in a position to have this perspective.



    Kutsa responds to so much lore it cannot all be tracked. He has the tone of an "agricultural" Mandhata, an "agricultural" Manu, and mentions Adhrigu in the same verse with Bhujyu, as helped by the Aswins.

    He is also remembered as an Aswins rescue by Sobhari Kanva:


    With those protections with which you have defended Paktha, Adhrigu, and Babhru...


    The most powerful memory seems to be that by Parvata Kanva:


    “We solicit that (exhilaration) whereby you have defended Adhrigu, the accomplisher of the ten (monthś rite), and the trembling leader of heaven, (the sun), and the ocean.”


    which is with respect to Indra. The hymn begins on Mada "exhiliration", which is directly fastened to Adhrigu in the second verse. We may not have seen a "spiritual disease" that the Aswins lifted, but Indra and Mada are associated with Adhrigu as the leader of the Dasagvas. The Soma in this rite may be:


    ...shared with Viṣṇu, or when (offered) by Trita...


    “Great Indra, protector of the good, when you have slain thousands of mighty (foes), then your vast and special energy has been augmented.”


    So, no, there is not quite a well-painted Apostolic Succession. This is just an attempt by logic to say, well, certain individuals are shown in the role of "leadership of Angirases", Dadhyan, Adhrigu, and Ayasya. Instead of any reason to presume missing gaps between them, we expect a compact-ness or compression, that those may be the only generations before one could say there is a recorded succession of Rishis.


    Now, perhaps Anga Aurava is a "timer" by mentioning Rjisvan and the "escape" of Usas in very simple form. The articles and reviews suggest Rjisvan is someone's disciple, but, this is not clear from the Veda. There is one memory of him by Gauriviti Saktya:


    In the adoration of the gods by Manu there are three effulgences...

    try aryamā manuṣo devatātā trī rocanā divyā dhārayanta |



    “To aid (the undertaking of) his friend, Agni, the friend (of Indra) has quickly consumed three hundred buffaloes; and Indra, for the destruction of Vṛtra, has at once quaffed vessels of Soma, offered by Manu.”



    Three vessels:

    trī sarāṃsi maghavā somyāpāḥ

    ...you and Uśanas...

    ...the voiceless Dasyus...


    “May the praises of Gaurivīti exalt you; you have humbled Pipru for the son of Vidathin; Ṛjiśvan preparing dressed viands, has, through your friendship brought you (to his presence), and you have drunk of his libation.”

    “The observers of the nine month's celebration, those of the ten months, pouring out libations, worship Indra with hymns; the leaders (of rites), glorifying him, have set open the cave (concealing the cattle).”


    Followed by:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): babhru rātreyaḥ


    Those two are potentially grouped again. IX.108 is from multiple composers, Gauriviti, Sakti, and Uru:


    “(You) through whom Dadhyañc the offerer of the nine days' rites opened (the cave), through whom the ṛṣis recovered (the stolen cows), through whom under the protection of the gods the worshippers obtained the sustenance of the delicious (ambrosial water).”



    also:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): ṛjiṣvā

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): ṛṇañcayaḥ


    As with the "Eleven Vasisthas", it is possible some of these "Rishis" are simply "attributes", such as "rjisva" is used generically for "filtration/purification", similar to "Pavamana" and so forth.

    However, we can say that Uru speaks in reference to Dadhyan, which would be in keeping with an early existence. This remains valid in the time of Vamadeva and Trasadasyu, the difference being they have more to add. The Visvedevas pantheon is more difficult and makes less sense until one adds this Rishi. It is already the major doctrine of Immortality. Also, because Gauriviti remembers Rjisvan in another area, the implication makes itself.

    It becomes redundant to know Rjisvan is in VI.20. Elsewhere in Book Six, he is very simply named in a block of four hymns starting from VI.49:


    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): ṛjiśvāḥ



    These are well-made Visvedevas hymns, where, if we ask, is he doing something special for Usas -- not quite:


    “May the two daughters of the radiant (sun) of various form, of whom one glitters with stars, the other (is bright) with the sun, mutually opposed, proceeding diversely, purifying (all things), and entitled to our laudation, be pleased by the praise they hear (from us).”


    “May the illustrious Agni, the invoker of the gods, worship (with this oblation), Tvaṣṭā, the first divider (of forms), the renowned, the giver of food, the well-handed, the vast, the adored of householders, the readily invoked.”

    Viṣṇu, who with three (steps) made the terrestrial reions for Manu when harassed

    ...the luminous deities, who have Dakṣa for their progenitor...


    Here comes an interpretation:


    ...to whom mystical prayers are addressed, and who have been glorified by (ancient) sages


    stutā mantrāḥ kaviśastā


    It is just the Mantras from Kavis, almost as if this were "new".

    Again, he doesn't quite say:


    my sons, of the race of Bharadvāja

    tasya dhībhir bharadvājā


    It means they share the intelligence, the way of thought of. This makes Bharadvaja sound contemporary to *Rjisvan's sons*.

    He is already concerned with:

    pañca janāḥ


    and then sounds inductive to, or agent for:


    ...the presenter of the oblation, Bharadvāja


    I don't think there was anything about Divodasa, the Bharatas, or Aryas. It looks like Bharadvaja performs this particular bridge. If IX.108 is reliable, one may suppose Rjisvan to be a "bridge" from Uru to "the Vasisthas". This sounds like the same kind of idea, of the previous generation. Or, it is a small Rishis' bond that is played out in the socio-political realm later.


    Sometimes we get poor contributions from relatively faithful reviewers such as Frawley:


    Tvasthar, the Vedic father-creator Sky God, who is also a name for the father of Manu (RV X.17.1-2)


    is simply mistaken and unhelpful because this is the Saranyu story. He also says:


    Tvashtar appears as the father of Indra, who fashions his thunderbolt (vajra) for him (RV X.48.3)



    This is Indra Vaikuntha:


    the strtiker off of the head of the son of Atharvan

    Dadhyañc, the son of Mātariśvan


    where again, it sounds funny, so if we check for comparison:



    I, Indra, am Atharvan's stay and firm support: I brought forth kine to Trita from the Dragon's grasp.
    I stripped the Dasyus of their manly might, and gave the cattle-stalls to Matarigvan and Dadhyac.

    ahám índro ródho vákṣo átharvaṇas tritā́ya gā́ ajanayam áher ádhi
    aháṃ dásyubhyaḥ pári nṛmṇám ā́ dade gotrā́ šíkṣan dadhīcé mātaríšvane


    This appears more correct to the original verse, no "sons" or the violent act are there.


    We find a title for a Sukta on a page for agriculture, Sasya Veda:


    Ksetrapati (4.57)


    and similar (and more extensive) vocabulary on a governmental page report by S Chattotpadhyay.




    This reference is correct for Vamadeva:

    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): kṣetrapatiḥ


    And we are referred to the synonyms in AV VII.10.24 sasya, manusya, karsani/krsti/krsi, and Prthu Vainya (possibly again in X.57). This also suggests IV.57. And when we turn there, we find yet another deification:


    May Indra take hold of Sītā; may Pūṣan guide her...

    Viraja VIII.10



    "Ksetrapati" is also at the beginning of IV.38:


    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): dyāvāpṛthivyau

    FROM you two came the gifts in days aforetime which Trasadasyu granted to the Purus.
    Ye gave the winner of our fields and plough-lands, and the strong smiter who subdued the Dasytis.

    And ye gave mighty Dadhikras, the giver of many gifts, who visiteth all people,
    Impetuous hawk, swift and of varied colour, like a brave King whom each true man must honour.


    which goes on as a Dadhikra hymn, so, it appears that Trasadasyu is inheriting the "Ksetrapati" title, and this system rapidly spreads.


    It may have minorly different formats of spelling. Vasukarna Vasukra's Visvedevas X.66 has a comment for:


    the three Soma vessels, droṇa, āhavanīya and pūtabhṛt


    attempts on:


    kṣetrasya patim


    we solicit (wealth of) the contiguous lord of the field, and the immortal and not unheeding universal deities

    We pray to him who dwelleth near, Guard of the Field, to all Immortal Gods who never are remiss.


    He finishes by clearly identifying descendants of Vasistha.

    So far, "Ksetrapati" is heavily skewed to Mandhata, Trasadasyu, and Vaisistha, or Ikshvakus.

    It is used formulaicly by Vasistha; he also uses Ksetra as the dwelling that Vishnu prepares for the Manusas.


    Otherwise, "ksetra" appears mostly in a generic sense, "fields", "lands", or the like. It is deified in one more area from Manu Vaivasvata on Dampati:


    agniṃ vaḥ pūrvyaṃ girā devam īḻe vasūnām | saparyantaḥ purupriyam mitraṃ na kṣetrasādhasam ||


    I glorify with song, for wealth, Agni the God, the first of you.
    We honour as a well-loved Friend the God who prospereth our fields.


    Surprisingly, on GRETIL, one finds only this single area where "sasya -- agriculture" appears:


    (AVŚ_8,10.24a) sod akrāmat sā manuṣyān āgachat tāṃ manuṣyā upāhvayanterāvaty ehīti |
    (AVŚ_8,10.24c) tasyā manur vaivasvato vatsa āsīt pṛthivī pātram |
    (AVŚ_8,10.24e) tāṃ pṛthī vainyo 'dhok tāṃ kṛṣiṃ ca sasyaṃ cādhok |
    (AVŚ_8,10.24g) te svadhāṃ kṛṣiṃ ca sasyaṃ ca manuṣyā upa jīvanti kṛṣṭarādhir upajīvanīyo bhavati ya evaṃ veda ||24||



    It is needed to supplement the scan in the translation from T Ram:


    Quote She, Virat, arose and proceeded to humans. They called upon her at the closest: come, harbinger of food, water and energy.

    Manu, the man of thought and imagination, child of self-refulgent sun, became her calf-like child, and earth was the vessel in which he was to receive the mother’s milk for sustenance of life.

    Prthi, the man seeker of advancement who was friend and disciple of Vena, the sage of knowledge and wisdom, milked her into the earth and thereby received the knowledge of farming and the gift of grain for food.

    They live by agriculture and grain for food, all humans live thus. Whoever knows this becomes a successful prosperous farmer and a support for life for others.


    Or, from the translation on its own page, it is evident this is a major explanation of Vak Viraj:


    She mounted up, she came to men. They called her, Come unto-
    us, come hither thou Free-giver!
    Earth was her milking-pail, the calf beside her Manu Vaivasvata,
    Vivasvān's offspring.
    Prithi the son of Vena was her milker: he milked forth hus-
    bandry and grain for sowing.
    These men depend for life on corn and tillage. He who knows
    this becomes a meet supporter, successful in the culture of his_
    corn-land.



    She emanates through Brihat and Rathantara Samans, affixes unusual deities such as Virochana, and others such as Kubera, Takshaka, and Dhrtarashtra, suggesting this hymn is post-Rg Vedic.

    That makes it nearly impossible to take literally in a linear sense. It has the early Rg Vedic events -- e. g., the emergence of Saman lineages, Vamadevyas and Yajnayajniyas -- before various other events, before Manu, etc., and so the sense I would get is that Prthu "expanded or developed" agriculture in some area, rather than necessarily "discovering/inventing it". Similarly, we wouldn't necessarily say the Rishis "discovered" Fire by Friction, but applied it in a new way. Whatever this may be, is recognized as "successful, prosperous". However, although it sounds reticent and vague, it must be referring to the knowledge base and experience of the vast majority of people. The hymn reflects the difficulty of, how do you keep adding anything new, while preserving any kind of focus on that which is long established.


    This is exactly what we have run into before. The Rg Veda *does* support an early Prthu probably prior to Book Six, however in later use:


    The story of Pṛthu and his milking of the earth is a Purāṇic transformation of the Vedic conception of milking of the Virāj cow. The Virāj Sūkta (AV. VIII 10) forms the basis of the Purāṇic legend. This purāṇic legend records the right of the sages (public leaders) to do away with a wilful tyrant.


    Rishi Prthu is in the circumstance of invoking Indra to be born and defeat the Dasas again,

    This persona is clearly remembered by Sasakarna Kanva and of course by Tanva Parthyah. We also just specifically found Prthu as:


    the mortal Venya


    by:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): iṭo bhārgavaḥ



    As for Vena, X.123 is almost certainly a "conversational" hymn that tells us nothing about a human Vena. The name borrows from an attribute of Surya by Gotama.


    We are left with an author of Soma verses, Vena Bhargava. He speaks of "the Venas" twice.

    Vena of the Puranas is a son of Anga or Ayu, however this Rishi would be a follower of Bharga Pragatha, which would mean several Kanvas are older then Book Six, in order for Prthu to also be historical to it.

    I'm not sure that matches the stature of "Ksetrapati", which is like "Vacaspati", over-arching.


    If we continue through Atharva Veda, we find Ksetrapati at:


    II,8 against hereditary disease

    II.12 as the Queen

    XX.143, the culmination of the whole book.



    Similarly, it makes limited uses of "Vacaspati", such as in the hypostasis of Rohita and Rohini. That's very difficult. There is a parallel of "Nightmare Usas" based in a hypostasis of Usas and Vacaspati.


    The very beginning of the whole book is for Vacaspati, followed by a verse on Munja grass.


    What? Vacaspati and Ksetrapati are the Alpha and Omega of the Atharva Veda.


    Knowing that he sounds weird, it is the T Ram Yajur Veda which contains Anukramani information. Vacaspati and Visvakarman or Vishvakarman "the husband" are nearly the whole subject of this work.

    Brahmanaspati <--> Visvakarma in the last reference by Grtsamada.


    Otherwise it is less descript about Brahmanaspati, except for the preceding verse from Kanva:


    brahmanaspatirmantram

    Brahmanaspati, lord of universal knowledge,
    speaks to us, for sure, of the wonder mantra of celebrated
    knowledge in which divinities such as Mitra, Varuna,
    Aryama and Indra abide in mystery with their power
    and secret of prana, water, spirit and light.


    That is overdone, but of course it does deal with Brahmanaspati holding this mantra in which other deities abide.

    It uses Vacaspati Visvakarma by Shasa and Bhuvanputro Vishvakarma; Prajapati also says:


    brhaspataye vacaspataye


    The linked agricultural studies help us find that in the Vedas and even the Brahmanas, farming is highly prized, recommended, a premier profession. They identify sixteen kinds of "corn" or grain. So of course this is what it is mostly "about", if we say it means "moving the secret knowledge of the Rishis into the public domain", then it is far more about its food-producing base, than its geographical acquisitions in a military fashion. I still find nothing that remotely suggests taking over the world, or converting "everyone"; although it may have a boundary, an exclusion zone, towards which, adversaries must flee.


    If we strip down everything but the Vedic references on the Wiki page for Shabda Brahman:

    The Rig Veda states that Brahman extends as far as Vāc (R.V.X.114.8), and has hymns in praise of Speech as the Creator (R.V.X.71.7) and as the final abode of Brahman (R.V.I.164.37).


    It does? First of all, Sabda Brahman is a post-Vedic term for The Vedas.


    Well, they are a form of Speech, they are spoken, and so the Atharva Veda begins with Vacaspati and this kind of "knowledge":

    evāstu mayi śrutam


    which is nearly the same as Buddhist Sutras, "Evam mayekasmin srutam...", something that has been heard/listened to.


    The first verse cited above contains:


    ...as Brahmā is variably developed, so is Speech.


    which perhaps *looks* like a separate, individual deity, until you accept the overwhelming odds it is a generic noun or verb. This is not really about Brahman or Brahma in any way. Of course not, we have just seen it from the other direction, because it opens with Matarisvan and Saman.


    The "he" that looks like Brahma taking multiple forms is really the Bird, Suparna. First it alludes to forty common ritual components or perhaps "stations". Then it goes to something rather more mystical:


    “There are fourteen other great developments of him, seven sages conduct him by prayer; who may declare the expanded place of sanctity at this (rite), the path by which they drink of the libation.”


    This area is about the Path. And so if we use an original, basic meaning, instead of anything to do with "Brahma", there is:


    The Chariot's majesties are fourteen others: seven sages lead it onward with their Voices.
    Who will declare to us the ford Apnana, the path whereby they drink first draughts of Soma?

    The fifteen lauds are in a thousand places that is as vast as heaven and earth in measure.
    A thousand spots contain the mighty thousand. Vak spreadeth forth as far as Prayer extendeth.


    So then yes, that has the meaning of "sabda brahman", but not the actual phrase. It *may* have the meaning of "fourteen lokas", although this is not terribly precise.

    X.71 is where Brhaspati is making an existential remark about a true Brahman of the heart, and those who only act the part.

    The other reference is to Dirghatamas's quest for the portion of meaning of a word, followed by the symbolism of Rik = "all the Vedas" in the realm of Parame Vyoman. These are just not very good examples in the manner utilized. The proper Vedic doctrine is just "Mantra". It *does* elevate itself in a series of expansions. Brhaspati is like a Gatekeeper, because none of it will work unless you do what he says.



    Tvastr has a mysterious wife. He is more frequently with the Gnas, the wives of the Devas, who may be intended as Meters and Samans.

    His daughter, Saranyu, is mysterious, going to further descendants such as the Aswins, the Yamas, and Usas.


    From our material plane, that is why, therefor, there would be an interaction of Usas and Vacaspati.

    I did not realize that was inveigled with Viraj Sukta. She is not quite so forthright about "Vak". You might say she "worships the Sama Veda", refers to some Rg Vedic Rishis, and then counters Poison with a Gourd. In the process, she exalts agriculture by Prthu. This again we would take as an Ikshvaku or Gangetic reference. This area is not known for brick or stone IVC villages. But it does have small amounts of humans attempting settled agriculture from around 7,000 B. C. E.; moreover, the Vindhya hills being occupied by those who eventually supplied metal for tools.



    They are so over-zealous. The Isopanishad/final Dirghatamas chapter in Yajur Veda is mostly on Atma, except one verse given in the Anukramani to:


    Brahma Devata


    which is clearly not a name in the verse:


    Anejadekam manaso javiyo nainaddeva’
    apnuvan purvamarsat. Taddhavato’nyanatyeti
    tisthattasminnapo matarisva dadhdati.


    4 Motionless, one, swifter than Mind—the Devas failed to
    o’ertake it speeding on before them.
    It, standing still, outstrips the others running. Herein Both
    Mâtarisvan stablish Action.


    but is included at the very end:


    Hiranmayena patrena satyasyapihitam mukham.
    Yo’ savaditye purusah so’ savaham. Om kham
    brahma.


    The face of truth is covered by a golden veil. The
    veil is removed by the Lord of golden glory.


    The life and light that shines in the sun is that
    Supreme Purusha. That is there, and that is here in me.


    What do you mean, Om kham brahma?

    We can see it split off, it is a line or sentence of its own.

    In Rg Veda, we do find "Kham" for:


    Sky

    Heaven


    or if we move ahead to the Upanishad:


    oṃ | pūrṇamadaḥ pūrṇamidaṃ pūrṇātpūrṇamudacyate |
    pūrṇasya pūrṇamādāya pūrṇamevāvaśiṣyate ||

    oṃ khaṃ brahma | khaṃ purāṇam; vāyuraṃ kham

    Om is the ether-Brahman—the eternal ether. ‘The ether containing air,’ ...is the Veda...



    The term is familiar to most of us as Kha. This may still be a basic sentence like "worship heaven".

    Did the Yajur Veda say much on, who is Brahma? Not really. Instead there is an abundance of a "system":


    brahma ksatram


    It only has one "ksetrapati", Rudra. But a lot of "brahma" in that social context, ksatriya, "warriors".



    If we start to think it is an attribute of a particular deity:


    brahma devo brhaspatih

    mahirbrahma devo brhaspatih



    But otherwise, I don't think you could say "Brahma" is a character who receives Offerings. Tvastr is.


    There are only a couple of coherent statements on his actual nature. One we find when he passes an Axe to Etasa Brahmanaspati, and then the Kavis are told to re-enact a similar performance.


    Grtsamada places him as the mantric origin of Devas, in a way we will mongrelize the translations:


    víšvebhyo hí tvā bhúvanebhyas pári tváṣṭā́janat sā́mnaḥ sāmnaḥ kavíḥ
    sá ṛṇacíd ṛṇayā́ bráhmaṇas pátir druhó hantā́ mahá ṛtásya dhartári


    For Tvastar, he who knows each sacred song, brought thee to life, preeminent o' er all the things that be.

    Brahmaṇaspati acknowledges a debt to the performer of a sacred rite; he is the acquitter (of the debt), who slays the spoiler and upholds the mighty Law.


    It is not much different from Logoi and similar doctrines; just in a way not recently discussed. Tvastr is cosmic and natural law that mantras work, while remaining mostly in the background. The first deviation, emanation, or vyuha is Brahmanaspati, who, by interacting with Devas of his own production, goes to Brhaspati. In return, Brhaspati is able to overcome Vrtra and Vala. In other words, those are two basic allegories on spiritual facts or personal crises, and at some point there is something more advanced as shown by Brahmanaspati, Visvakarman, Vacaspati.

    In metaphysics, you are going to say, the two are aspects of one person, the Vacaspati and Vak Devi having an internal meaning.

    Or, they are the Dampati, or the Couple as an incarnation of each.

    "Both are true".

    As principles, they are omnipresent, inseparable. As "roles", they must be highly personalized. This is similar to saying Vrtra is a basic introductory lesson, like the Illumination of "Visvamitra's Gayatri" or the end of Yajur Veda, distinguished from Vala opening an esoteric Catharsis such as Sunashepa and those hymns that pay off sins and ameliorate infirmities.


    Cf. Kumar & Choudhury 2021:


    Quote In the Védic era, it was compulsory to be with a wife to perform any Védic rituals and a man without a wife was considered incomplete as only a wife could consummate him in his journey through life, procuring the four aspects of life, Dhárma(obligation), Artha (possession),K¯ama (love and desires) and, conclusively, Moks.a(emancipation)(Borah 2018). The wife was referred to as ardhangini (better half), sahadharmini (equal partner),and dhárma patni (licit wife) (Pal 2019).R.ig Véda makes no distinction between male or female and declares the wife and husband to be equal halves of one material, equal in every way, and that both should participate equally in both religious and secular duties. The Upanis.ads have pellucidly stated that the individual souls are neither male nor female(Laungani 2015). Similarly, Atharva Véda 14.1.43–44, states that when a woman marries, she is expected to rule the family as a queen, along with her husband.

    AV XIV is Surya Savitri. So having an "honored position" is barely the beginning of it.


    As for Tvastr, this root meaning is sensible with respect to the Cup or to Surya:


    Tvaṣṭa (त्वष्ट).—p. p. Made thin, pared, peeled &c.

    E. tvakṣ to make thin, affix kta.

    Tvaṣṭa (ತ್ವಷ್ಟ):—[adjective] trimmed and smoothened with or as with an adze (said of wood).




    It is the experts who say the Rg Veda began as just the Family Books, which means Book Two was originally first, which means that in the plainest linear fashion, this dispensation of Tvastr -- Brahmanaspati would come right up. It must be a selection, since Grtsamada doesn't seem to be known personally by anyone, the motivation for collecting this Book is perhaps that, as a reader, it seems the most to me like a regular book. It is the shortest, concentrating these subjects.

    Medhatithi is, in my opinion, a purposeful copyist who either designed or was used for the design of the ten book pattern. He has copied the Waters from Book Ten, and this hypostasis of Tvastr and Brahmanaspati from Grtsamada. This is all intertwined.


    So, although one could say, well, that's just not common knowledge, it only has two references, then we should at least consider the positioning and prominence of the two.


    Grtsamada has presented a "new system". Something complex enough to involve sixteen performers. We are not sure why Sayana comments Tvastr as Nestr, which is an assistant to the Ardhavaryu, the Aswins. If it has a personal meaning for him, the obscure idea is almost at the very beginning of the Rg Veda by Medhatithi:

    gnāvo neṣṭaḥ piba ṛtunā


    One might attempt to dispute this means "nestr of the rite and his wife", although assigning it to Tvastr is not unreasonable in context.


    More specifically, it *is* the beginning of Book Two. It starts by crediting Agni as being all the priests and deities. To explain it, slightly further along, Grtsamada places the Nestr to make offerings of Soma and Food, before the Fourth Ambrosial Cup. The opening passage is used as the basis for Vedic Grhapati or that this is for or about Householders.



    There is one formulaic repetition of the set of priests, in Book Ten where it goes up to Brahma. This is not a new or separate deity because it is the office of Atharvan:


    Brahma’s position was very high in the yagas that it was believed that only silent sitting of Brahma makes the yaga successful without any mistake.

    Somayaga is the only yaga where the presence of all the sixteen priests is necessary,


    Therefor, Grtsamada is putting forward a majestic form of Somayaga. Again, as far as we know, this must be the primary way the Veda must be distinguishing itself from any similar "Indra mantras" or styles of offerings. It is not Soma, the physical beverage of a particular locale that is essential, but this manner of handling it. By definition, a sixteen-person ritual could not really have been part of the "first event". Its appearance must represent the fusion and augmentation of deities. For an individual, then, we should consider that it would mean visualization at that level of detail. In other words, to train in Savitri's symbolic Soma with this kind of meditation, which only has an upgrade if one becomes part of a Couple.


    The typical error is to take this Brahma as a Caste, which is impossible.

    That is why Grtsamada introduces "new priests", i. e. it is about this biggest rite, which should be obvious since he was inducted by Somahuti Bhargava:


    By you, (Agni), may the Gṛtsamadas, repeating your praise, become masters of the precious secret (treasures)...



    and shortly he mentions "nestr" in a generic meaning:


    Clothing thern in his hues, the kine of him the Leader wait on him.
    Is he not better than the Three, the Sisters who have come to us?


    This is called "the leader":

    āyúvo néṣṭuḥ



    If retained as a name, then it is unclear where "fingers" comes from:


    “The sister fingers, which are the kine of the Neṣṭā, are those which accomplish him, (Agni's), worship; and in various ways are combined for this purpose through the three (sacred fires).”


    tā asya varṇam āyuvo neṣṭuḥ sacanta dhenavaḥ | kuvit tisṛbhya ā varaṃ svasāro yā idaṃ yayuḥ ||



    "Ayuvo" has been disregarded as it also is when used by Gotama, shortly after he says:


    "the Gotamas making a prayer":


    bráhma kṛṇvánto gótamāso



    So, I am not sure I would take the end of Yajur Veda as spontaneously re-naming this into a deity. The indicated subject section turns out to discuss Matarisvan and Atma. The point seems to be the next-to-last verse, Satya, that one is identical to the Purusha in the sun, which is covered or hidden by its golden glow.

    It is the view of Dirghatamas, which is of course relevant to the following.

    We see in one sense, Tvastr is the mantric Father of Brahmanaspati, which may be Ganapati, or perhaps himself-as-son Visvakarman, or Vacaspati, but is essentially responsible for all mantras and deities and the primary Cup. In the next sense, his daughter is the Wife of the Sun, Mother of the Aswins. The Veda however directs us to honor Usas, another descendant. This is combined with the Rishis and Immortality, in what may be the name origin for Kaksivan:


    “You replaced, Aśvins, with the head of a horse, (the head of) Dadhyañc, the son of Atharvan, and, true to his promise, he revealed to you the mystic knowledge which he had learned from Tvaṣṭā, and which was as a ligature of the waist to you.”


    Ye brought the horse's head, Asvins, and gave it unto Dadhyac the offspring of Atharvan.
    True, he revealed to you, O Wonder-Workers, sweet Soma, Tvastar's secret, as your girdle.

    the knowlege was kakṣyam. vām = a girdle to you both; strengthening them to perform religious rites


    ātharvaṇāyāśvinā dadhīce 'śvyaṃ śiraḥ praty airayatam | sa vām madhu pra vocad ṛtāyan tvāṣṭraṃ yad dasrāv apikakṣyaṃ vām ||



    To me, at least, it's very practical. Usas becomes more of a magical family that inhabits rivers and mountains, and besides the story of her collision, there are references to seeking the goddesses and maidens, conjoined with the aspect of Spiritual Diseases that are cured by the Aswins. Usas as Surya Savitri has already told us Soma is symbolic. So this is a type of activation, of presence of deities. If in part they still seem abstract, they are Vigor, Intelligence, and Happiness, which is not much different from Body, Mind, and Speech.

    As far as I can tell, the Sanskrit language as per the Rg Veda goes straight onto a Mantra Path of Subtle Yoga. This is really strange for me. Buddha just said the Rishis and Mantras were pure. Nothing about you should re-construct it or try to get the "pure" version out of the "corruption" (presumably Brahmanas) or anything like that. Not everyone had the internet in those days. You couldn't look up multiple versions. So that idea would have been futile.

    Nevertheless, Sadhana or spiritual practice as I have learned it, is identical to what we are seeing.

    I would say, more detailed, as in, if we were to enumerate sixteen priests and forty ritual components, etc., that must have existed at that level of detail. I think of it as a didactic device. It too is symbolic. For personal spiritual growth, it is not necessary to re-create a royal court with all these things. There is, however, a reason to think of this level of detail as important. That is for superior control if one is able to perform the Subtle Yoga.



    Rather than "light" or "solar rays", there is "gor" in this verse by Gotama:


    Then verily they recognized the essential form of Tvastar's Bull,
    Here in the mansion of the Moon.



    And this is the reaction in Dirghatamas:

    Tvastar, when he viewed the four wrought chalices, concealed himself among the Consorts of the Gods.

    As Tvastar thus had spoken, Let us slay these men who have reviled the chalice, drinking-cup of Gods,
    They gave themselves new names when Soma juice was shed, and under these new names the Maiden welcomed them.



    It's a reaction to the Rbhus. Tvastr hides among the Gnas (meters or mantras), and, the "new names" are the priestly offices, "Udgatr", etc., which in turn are used by Kanya, the Maiden or escaped, fleeing form of Usas.

    Sort of like Aditi justifies Indra, Usas appears to justify humanity.

    Gotama is talking about Dadhyan's Horse Head in Arjikiya country, and then Dirghatamas is dealing with the aftermath of the "encounter" there. This is like a "dividing line" between a preliminary, consecratory Vedism, emphasizing Indra and Agni overcoming adversaries, to an altogether different experience. Something mystical and experiential, which may involve multiple deities rather than a couple of basic ideas.

    Tvastr is behind every mantra, in terms that Grtsamada standardizes, which represent persons who have seen the Maidens.

    Again, from my view, speaking as a Subtle Yogin devotee who is only learning about Sanskrit, this is eerie because it matches the onset stages of the Subtle Yoga itself. That is to say, it is self-secret, because it will be difficult for some people to perceive even slightly, and for others it may last a long time or a lifetime. Throughout the Rg Veda, we find descriptions of those who have low power, some who are stronger, and others such as Vasisthas and Munis who are entirely magical and other-worldly.


    Anga Aurava does not talk about Vala and Brhaspati. Instead, his event appears to concern that Rishi of Book Six who may have inducted Brhaspati. Here is the short work which states the main purpose from the Vrtra encounter was the release of Usas and Apah.

    Rjisvan's attack on Pipru is what frightens Usas:


    1. ALLIED with thee in friendship, Indra, these, thy priests, remembering Holy Law, rent Vrtra limb from
    limb,

    When they bestowed the Dawns and let the waters flow, and when thou didst chastise dragons at
    Kutsa's call.

    2 Thou sentest forth productive powers, clavest the hills, thou dravest forth the kine, thou drankest
    pleasant meath.

    Thou gavest increase through this Tree's surpassing might. The Sun shone by the hymn that sprang
    from Holy Law.

    3 In the mid-way of heaven the Sun unyoked his car: the Arya found a match to meet his Dam foe.
    Associate with Rjisvan Indra overthrew the solid forts of Pipru, conjuring Asura.

    4 He boldly cast down forts which none had e'er assailed: unwearied he destroyed the godless
    treasure-stores.

    Like Sun and Moon he took the stronghold's wealth away, and, praised in song, demolished foes with
    flashing dart.

    5 Armed with resistless weapons, with vast power to cleave, the Vrtra-slayer whets his darts and deals
    forth wounds.

    Bright Usas was afraid of Indra's slaughtering bolt: she went upon her way and left her chariot there.

    6 These are thy famous exploits, only thine, when thou alone hast left the other reft of sacrifice.

    Thou in the heavens hast set the ordering of the Moons: the Father bears the felly portioned out by
    thee.



    I have not yet seen any reviewers pay any attention to Rjisvan. However, besides Indra, he is the only plausible namesake for "Arjikiya country", which is where Usas is going hiding. Although he is well-known enough to the Vedic Rishis, I am not sure if there is any positive or negative confirmation of his location other than this.

    If our chain is correct, Uru Angiras has the follower Anga Aurva and the sons Brhaspati and Ucathya. It is not impossible for Rjisvan to be contemporary to the "father of Bharadvaja" time frame.


    Anga Aurva is a segue' that tells us there will be much more to Usas.


    One review interprets uru samsa as "perfect speech". That perhaps is excessive; its context being more of quantity.


    I am trying to hone this in, because there are some studies on the "Cow Recovery" Gograhana (as called in the Mahabharata), which for example refers to:


    III.31

    IX.97.39


    importantly:


    The esoteric knowledge of this episode has been deliberately misused by the Indologists to create a wrong notion of shastras and oppositional categories to suit their colonial agenda.



    This article believes there were no cows. It's entirely symbolic for the Panis not being able to comprehend the Vedas even when they have them.

    It was a major concern for Sri Aurobindo. And there is a lot of bulk to that. It is understandable because it was the first time anyone doing that. And so he is stuck trying to justify why it might not literally mean Aryan invaders. Eventually he starts discussing Svar Loka. So it actually is the first step in the right direction.

    A somewhat compressed equivalent with many more citations is The Lost Sun and the Lost Cows. This one is very much like the way I am posting things, i. e. something is said and then the verse is given as support, but these are all written into the paragraphs rather than blocked out.

    Those all have to do in some way with Vala being about being able to see the reality of Vedic Speech for yourself. This is in an Uru or Uru Loka type of space, which in this sense does have the context of the mystical kind. "Uru" is not really the root of Varuna, which is the same vr- as "Vrtra", "to cover", plus:

    Ūn (ऊन्).—[ūna] r. 10th cl. (na) ūnat (ūnayati) 1. To deduct or lessen. 2. To mete out in small quantities. 3. To measure.


    i. e. that which is finite, sets things on their paths,



    I don't think the legend removes the historical background that the Panis actually were people and something happened. It is just that is not what the Veda is about, it allegorizes actual events but the main subject is Svar Loka or Heaven.

    I don't think there is any way to show whom Uru Angiras may have been the disciple of. This seems true for "the Angirases" overall, they may be early and late, only a few of them being "placeable" in a hierarchy tree, with plain "Angiras" possibly not meaning a human being. Chandogya Upanishad treats "Angiras" from Om Kham Brahma in the same way we found for "Ayasya Angiras" as well, prana.

    If there is a "legendary epoch" from Manu to Uru and Anga Aurava, so far we have not found anything other than three apparent chieftains of the rite, who have particular associations:



    Dadhyan, Immortality

    Adhrigu, Mada (exhiliration, intoxication)

    Ayasya, The Couple


    And, to me, at least, it makes sense to consider this as a basic, preliminary framework, which, after this first slight mention of Rjisvan, blossoms with intricate details particularly for Usas and the Aswins. Also with Sama Veda, which, may be a weird re-purposing of Riks, but also requires "Gandharva Veda", which means musicians. Strangely I have not heard it asked or said if the Rishis were musicians. Not in the commentary or translations do we see "musician" offered as perhaps the meaning of "gandharva". Some say it is a foe, or a mountain guard, and then we are told it is the sun, and so forth.

    I could rest in some degree of confidence that Brhaspati describing Dharmic Speech as based in Friendliness and Wisdom is a great starting point, and that in the hymns, such wisdom is highly symbolic, starting from Vala, the inner Soma, and the inner deities as Intelligence, Vigor, and Happiness. This is generationally-equivalent to the three leaders as mentioned above. It is a bit like an embryonic development that takes place within the Veda, as this is not a covenant, not a response to something being "sent down", but a discovery and augmentation that definitely "expands", even though it has a "founder or founding event".

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Indian physical history, Atharva Veda, Brhaddiva and Pururavas



    I noticed recently that India may have some Semitic loan-words. The example given was Jabala from "ram's horn Jubilee". It is not found in the Vedas. It appears in Sanskrit and Kannada and is used in the Upanishads. In fact it is used in the line of teachers. Therefor that would appear to be composed relatively recently or post-Vedic.



    Here is another simple inquiry that would have been unresolvable until recently.

    This follows the principle that if the hymns lack something obvious, it probably had not been invented yet. It turns out the Veda does not have "kukkuta" for Domestic Chicken:

    Quote At the site of Daimabad, India, Gallus is absent from earlier Savalda and Harappan levels, but prominent in the subsequent early Jorwe levels dating from ∼1500 to 1200 BCE. Gallus bones have been reported from several other sites of the Jorwe period (Nevasa, Inamgaon, Tuljapur Garhi, Walki), as well as contemporaneous sites farther south (Southern Neolithic Period III). This period appears to coincide with historical linguistic reconstructions for the Dravidian languages in South India, since each of three linguistic subphyla have distinct etyma, thus indicating that chickens became widespread after these languages diverged ∼1200 BCE (1500 to 500 BCE). This timing is also consistent with Vedic texts in which chickens are unattested prior to ∼1200 BCE.

    That represents Maharashtra.

    That is from a large genetic study which makes some reasonable judgments. There are several species of wild chickens in south Asia. These represent most of the bones incidentally found at older IVC sites. The domestic chicken was almost entirely produced out of the species located in the Thai and Burmese highlands, and, it was not that long ago, maybe 1,850 B. C. E.. The domesticated product is found slightly later in India, with larger amounts of bones and more from juveniles. Similarly as with rice, India seems to have mixed a bit of its wild variety; the gene for yellow shanks is Indian. But unless it is found otherwise, there is currently not any trace of the domestic chicken in India prior to 1,500 B. C. E., if that. It may have come to east and south India first and had no reason to be visible in north Indian hymns up to around 1,200 B. C. E. and few of those. As in none.

    Most domestic chickens have come from India after that. Southeast Asia ones to Oceania, and Indian ones to most of the rest of the world.

    In order to discuss the finds, at all, geneticists are stuck with whatever archaeologists are using for locations and "cultures".


    Well the Rg Veda does not say "Thou Shalt Not Write", but there was an Indus Script, and then we encounter a group of Sages who favor mentally interiorized, spoken ways of transmitting hymns, that grows to become this massive linguistic artifact. Instead of newer scripts, there is nothing. Sites in India are categorized by forms of pottery. Compared to IVC, on an Astrological basis, it was necessary to eradicate Tiger Goddess and Gharial Sky God, not out of hostility, but because the sky and stars had changed compared to any ancient tradition.



    Before the Chicken, but after the Cow, we found that Chinese domesticated Rice had been established around the Ganges, and has a select westward drift around 2,300 B. C. E.. Regardless of how much Sanskrit may have had a northern influence, from Sintashta, Vedic Sanskrit is not possible without Gangetic rice to use in its offerings. It has Dravidian words and Gangetic rice.


    To the north in India, settlements with Ochre Colored Pottery involve rice:


    OCP culture was a contemporary neighbor to Harappan civilization, and between 2500 BC and 2000 BC, the people of Upper Ganga valley were using Indus script.


    You can sense they immediately get stuck. It is tough to say OCP and Ganges are "different cultures", "different languages", as if they were utterly foreign people to each other. What is true is that the craftsmen do not set the demand for their product, and international commerce is about to collapse.

    In further detail from V Kumar 2017:



    The gangetic plains don’t have copper. It was imported from peripheral
    regions. It appears that the some varities of copper artefacts were made and exported by the
    peripheral people to the OCP people. To complete the sketch of the OCP culture, the burial practices
    of OCP people from Sanauli district Baghpat,U.P. have been discussed. The material found from
    excavations in western U.P. shows potsherds with Harappan script. It indicates that between 2500
    B.C. and 2000 B.C., the people of Indus valley and Upper Ganga valley were using common script.

    Around 600 B.C. during early historical period, we find different dialects of Indo-aryan languages
    been used from Bengal to Afghanistan and from Northern India to Northern Deccan. The Buddhist
    literature and earlier literature like the four Vedas, later Vedic texts don’t show any major change in
    the language. The Jain traditional literature which was compiled later on but appears to be of the
    earliest origin gives a continuous account of different Tirthankaras and Kings. The four traditions give
    slightly different versions of the same story. For example, Buddhist literature mentions Ikśvāku as the
    ancestor of Buddha. The descendants of Ikśvāku also appears in many Jataka stories. Vedic and later
    Vedic literature mentions him as a great king. Jains also claim him as ancestor of Rishabha, the first
    Tirthankara.

    It can be surmised from these evidences that the lingua-franca of North, Western and
    Central India didn’t change. The western OCP people used Harappan script but as far as
    archaeological evidence goes eastern people didn’t use it, but the language used by the people living
    in this area was same. The material culture of the whole OCP zone was almost the same. Their
    weapons can be seen all over India. They imported copper from Himalayan zone, Rajshthan, Central
    India and Eastern India. They also imported ready-made Harappans vessels, weapons and other
    artefacts made of copper as is evident from the recent find of a hoard of copper objects from
    Harinagar, Mubarakpur, Bijnor, U.P..

    The identification of Neolithic phase from which OCP evolved needs further researches. Its
    Mesolithic beginnings should also be searched as noted earlier.





    Around the Vedic era, the layers in the Maharashtra region are something like:


    Daimabad

    Malwa

    Jorwe


    in some areas:

    Black and Red Ware

    Painted Grey Ware "wrote" in Geometry:

    There are a few stamp seals with geometric designs but no inscription, contrasting with both the prior Harappan seals and the subsequent Brahmi-inscribed seals of the Northern Black Polished Ware culture.

    In 2013, the University of Cambridge and Banaras Hindu University excavated at Alamgirpur near Delhi, where they found a period overlap between the later part of the Harappan phase (with a "noticeable slow decline in quality") and the earliest PGW levels...

    Thought to be eastern in origin:






    You can glimpse west IVC, i. e. Dholavira etc. towards the lower left.

    That gives us an impression of the "layering" of certain styles. We are a bit late to be impressed if they "communicate" or "trade" since Shortugai has already been founded to do this near the Caspian Sea.





    Painted Grey Ware is a successor of the Cemetery H culture and Black and red ware culture (BRW) within the Ghaggar-Hakra region, and contemporary with the continuation of the BRW culture in the eastern Gangetic plain and Central India.

    Although it is sometimes called an archaeological culture, the spread in space and time and the differences in style and make are such that the ware must have been made by several cultures.


    Black and Red Ware sites (c. 1450 – 800 BCE)

    In some sites, particularly in eastern Punjab and Gujarat, BRW pottery is associated with Late Harappan pottery.

    In the Western Ganges plain (western Uttar Pradesh) it is dated to c. 1450–1200 BCE, and is succeeded by the Painted Grey Ware culture; whereas in the Central and Eastern Ganges plain (eastern Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, and Bengal) and Central India (Madhya Pradesh) the BRW appears during the same period but continues for longer, until c. 700–500 BCE






    That map focuses the end phase; otherwise it was almost universal:


    In Western India, Black and Red Ware pottery is associated with the Harappan culture at sites such as Lothal, Somnath (Prabhas Patan) and Bet Dwarka.


    It includes Dancing Girl and Chimera. It may have originated in Egypt. This is a "technique" that is being passed around, sometimes using IVC motifs, sometimes art associated with the region it is found in.


    So Painted Grey Ware distinctly emerges around the 1,200-1,500 B. C. E. range; it makes its appearance in the Ghaggar valley and the upper Ganga region. The *latest* samples of Black and Red Ware are continuing along with it. Ensuingly, from the next study by V Kumar 2019:

    Different scholars have considered the Black-and-Red Ware to be the defining
    cultural equipment of ethnic groups whose existence is known through traditional
    literature and linguistics but who have eluded identification in tangible material terms.



    The conclusion it is probably a "technique", not "a people".



    Kausambi woman with Zebus, ca. 2,000-1,750 B. C. E., 35 miles from Prayaga:






    It is well-known as a "late Vedic" site:


    Kauśāmbī (कौशाम्बी), capital of the Vatsas, today Kosam on the Jumna, 50 km. from Allahabad. It had several parks, Kukkuṭa and Ghositārāma, where the Buddha frequently stayed.


    It is claimed to have been settled by Kusamba, the son of Kusa:

    Kuśa (कुश) or Darbha


    This may have to do with the fact that Visvamitra calls his Gotra "the Kausikas". His Guru is Gathin Kausika. And we have found a Rishi credited in III.31 on Hidden Cows:


    aiṣīrathīḥ kuśiko


    and more prominently in X.127:


    kuśikaḥ saubharo



    There is possibly an individual named Subhara by Kutsa.


    We would be more assured that Book Three is discussing its antecedent. The more relevant question is if colloquial "Kusa" would be equivalent to Vedic "Kusika".

    However, what the archaeologists are giving the name to, is a fortification built perhaps around 1,000 B. C. E.. The bronze figurine is "located" in a parenthetical suggestion by The Met, so, the dates may be a good guess and "North India", but its location prior to 1991 is unknown. They believe it to be their oldest Indian bronze.

    The Kausambi area "may have been settled" from the early Stone Age, but they have not proven anything resembling a city that is very early. There may well be a "Kusamba" as the namesake of a later settlement, which would not be Visvamitra's Guru's Guru.


    We lack writing, and although we see various phases, the main "technique" seems to have spread across India from:


    ...in the preHarappan context the Black and Red Ware is reported form the pre-Prabhas levels (Ca.
    3000-2800 BCE) at Somnath in Gujarat. This so far is the earliest radiometric date for
    this ware in India.



    I am not sure, This may be something new; it is not reflected in Somnath Revisited 2017, nor with about 1,500 B. C. E. given for Prabhas Warehouse. It is not the likely age for Kuntasi ca. 2,200 B. C. E. having Copper Hoard and:


    Lapis Lazuli was found in unusual large quantity in this settlement, indicating that it was exported to Mesopotamia, as lapis lazuli was known to have been an important export item from IVC to Mesopotamia.


    Rather than "abundant quantities", the "oldest find" must be:


    A black and red ware
    sherd was recovered from below the wall in the final dig.


    That is, Prabhas Patan was built "on" something which already had this ware. It's not really a "level". This is a sherd from a trench.



    The "Ochre" work arises around Jaipur, Rajasthan, and follows the drainage system from the Aravalli Range to Haryana.

    Sahibi River sites have pottery back to 3,300 B. C. E.; it also would justify a "hundred rivers" expression for its tributaries.


    So, if we took just a few remarks from the Rg Veda, it might sound like someone was struggling to make contact. But there is every reason to believe there was already a standing network. The Aravalli range witnesses the influential Rajasthan cultures of Kalibangan and Ahar, and Ganeshwar:


    Quote "The GSCC is east of the Harappan culture, to the north-east of Ahar–Banas Complex, north/north west to the Kayatha Culture and at a later date, west of the OCP-Copper Hoard sites (Ochre Coloured Pottery culture–Copper Hoard culture). Located within the regions of the Aravalli Hill Range, primarily along the Kantli, Sabi, Sota, Dohan and Bondi rivers, the GJCC is the largest copper producing community in third millennium BCE South Asia, with 385 sites documented. Archaeological indicators of the GSCC were documented primarily in Jaipur, Jhunjhunu, and Sikar districts of Rajasthan, India ...

    2,800 B. C. E. is given for the beginning of fired pottery and metallurgy at this region of north-east Rajasthan near Jodhpura.



    On the technical level, it is exactly these Pottery Cultures distinguished from IVC. Other countries have libraries in this date range. Almost all we can do is say if the Veda pre-supposes rice agriculture, then, the Ochre layer may be relevant or even necessary. It is *possible* another started in the "Vedic era". Glancing at a brief study:

    Mathura was the largest PGW site.

    Well, over a period of time, this looks like India:








    Different types of burial styles again may not really represent a "people" but a "spreading custom". Cemetery H from Punjab again noted for "human in a peacock". "Gandhara Grave" culture is beside Citral ca. 1,710-200 B. C. E..




    Ochre arises in Rajasthan and spreads in north India:





    S Ansari 2009 dissertation on Ochre Pottery



    Hastinapur has an early Ochre layer that is interrupted and replaced by Grey. This trove is actually the namesake for the ochrous powder. One does not know when the exact name "Hastinapur" was used, but, compared to most cities of medieval legend, it probably is significantly older than Ayodhya, Kashi, Kausambi, etc..



    Grey arises perhaps from Mathura:





    Characterized by a style of fine, grey pottery painted with geometric patterns in black.

    Are confined to few geographical locations, namely – Punjab, Haryana and upper Ganga Valley. This culture is associated with village and town settlements (but without large cities).

    The Rig Vedic sites have PGW but iron objects and cereals are absent.



    We don't know exactly what they mean by "sites" there. Its distribution goes as far as Kausambi and Ayodhya. And so far those do not seem to bear great antiquity, ca. 1,000 B. C. E.. But what we are told of this late-appearing Grey Ware:



    Quote ...which probably corresponds to the middle and late Vedic period, i.e., the Kuru-Panchala kingdom, the first large state in South Asia after the decline of the Indus Valley civilization.



    It's a mish-mash of subjects. Nothing says the IVC was a "state". The Vedas do not have such a kingdom. They allow a folklore Mandhata, although they do not have the story, they confirm the person, so without further information, we presume the "Vedic Age" to start in a security zone established by him. It was re-established primarily by Divodasa and Trasadasyu. It is likely to have only continued maybe a hundred years or so past that. It may be that the very latest hymns added to the Atharva Veda represent the time of the last "Vedic Kings". The "Kurus" are a Brahmanical tradition. Therefor we would think they represent something distantly separated from the Vedas' core.


    Understanding the Rajasthan -- Aravalli copper complex as Khetri:


    Quote The copper hoards are associated with the Ochre Coloured Pottery (OCP), which is closely associated with the Late Harappan (or Posturban) phase of the IVC. They may also be associated with the Indo-Aryan migrants of the second millennium BCE, or with the BMAC, from where the Indo-Aryans came into India. The association with the Vedic Indo-Aryans is problematic, since the hoards are mostly found east of the territory of the Vedic Indo-Aryans.

    additional ore sources may be:


    southern Haryana, Bihar/West Bengal/Orissa (especially Singhbhum) as well as Madhya Pradesh (Malaj Khand)


    We see a stubborn willfulness about these "immigrants". There is rather more weight that the Vedas came from "within", and that Copper and OCP is simply what they would have found by going a short ways *westward* on existing routes. Although it is mostly found in north India, nothing implies the product was "brought in". The most likely compromise with this prevailing attitude is that "BMAC" or "Oxus" people may have moved to Mehrgarh.

    It would be easier to suggest that Vedic Kadru is about bringing this "Khetri copper" scene into the fold. Or, if that more properly refers to north Rajasthan, Ahar is the ca. 3,000-1,500 B. C. E, culture of south Rajasthan using Black and Red Ware. It may technically have some slightly older specimens from the south, yet, we can see the "technique" centrally distributed from here and essentially covering all India. Gilund is so far the largest site, which is said to show influence from BMAC seals, although we are not shown an example. We expect to see the trade contact, however, no genetic ancestry from this BMAC appears in India. So if you try to say Sanskrit "rode in" on the Bactrians, there are no people. They are physically absent.



    The opposite direction is even bigger; south from the Aravallis you would first get to Dholavira, Gujarat, ca. 3,000 B. C. E.:






    The intervening millennium shows massive industrialization at Khirasara, Kuntasi, and Lothal as we have recently seen, which appears to also craft stringed musical instruments. A huge point of these places seems to have been Mesopotamian trade. So the downfall of fortune there, had an impact on these artisan centers or factories. This region is not archaic, in the sense that no sites resemble development from the Stone Age or continuous habitation. It has a very built/developed nature.




    Gandhara Grave stands in many ways as a likely "reflection" of indigenous practices, along with a *fusion* from the Pamir Highway, which is exactly where *no BMAC* is found, but there are other kinds of Caspian or Turanic peoples that *do* trickle in on young samples (1,200 B. C. E. forward). This is the page's conclusion:


    According to Kochhar, the Indo-Aryan culture fused with indigenous elements of the remnants of the Indus Valley civilization (OCP, Cemetery H) and gave rise to the Vedic Civilization.


    Bactria is found to oddly fade away, around the same time as that more likely influence on India, Sintashta was abandoned around 1,800-1,600 B. C. E.. It seems to me that a corresponding conflict around the Tin Road may be the background for the Avestan scriptures. I also think it likely that "Druhyus" were virtually indistinguishable from "Aryas" or were other Indic Veda practitioners who were forced northwest. Then one finds IVC Shortugai abandoned. It looks to have started out as a Bronze Age boom, and something went wrong, except for the strange connection of Sintashta to India. Almost as if it were inhaled.

    It is the same effort by linguists to insist that the "Indo-European" aspect of Sanskrit must be Sintashta. In this sense, Avestan and Citrali Sanskrit are closer. Vedic Sanskrit uses Dravidian roots in the Old Books. This, apparently, is one of the main things that distinguishes it.

    Now since west IVC (Balochistan) are genetically the same as central IVC, who, in turn, mix with south Indian, then the best guess is that Dravidian represents this situation. In some way, Sanskrit arose primarily in north India and mostly replaced Dravidian, except for the Brahui in the west, and other "pockets" across parts of India. We can only base this around an undecipherable script, followed by pottery that only uses simpler and simpler designs until it is practically blank.

    Houses are like that too. Compared to IVC Castles, many of these populations are found with wattle-and-daub huts.

    We can't project values of fortification and writing onto them. What if you just don't care.



    What they were "working on" was something "discovered" by Atharvan, "developed" in Arjikiya country, and presented as a system by Grtsamada. Why would you not call this "Atharva Veda"?

    Is it not a liturgy that comes from Atharvan but spans slightly longer than the Rg Veda? Yet smaller.

    Is it the Book of Angiras Gotra? We see that every Apri Hymn is a modification of something from Dirghatamas. At first it was a mnemonic of the ritual itself.

    Meanwhile, the "other Vedas" are more or less copying the Rg Veda in peculiar ways. In that sense, there really is only a tiny bit of material appended after the Rg Veda is "closed".


    Well, if I don't take the suggestion this is a bag of random hexes, but, may be emphasizing something other than kings and battles to use for "symbolization" purposes, and, this was coherent and cohesive to the rest of the Veda, what would it look like.



    Book One of the Atharvaveda *almost* shows us something significant, but the index is like a translated partial Anukramani, First of all the hymns may be a Visvedevas ritual as a whole. It is close to that. This also turns out to be "shaped" with the same material from Sukla Yajur Veda. So we would find it begins with:


    I -- Atharvan to Vacaspati


    and soon we are at:


    IV -- Apah Devata by Sindhudvipa


    and back to:


    X -- Atharvan to Varuna on the cleansing of sin


    Suddenly we can see through the Atharva, Rik, and Sukla Yajurveda almost at once, this has already easily returned to us some of the key elements. Or, something that is "findable" in the large, obscure Rg Veda, is more prominent in its near-clones compiled slightly later. For example, the comparison of X here to Sunashepa in Book One of the Rg Veda, because of the subject.

    So we see this creeping up, along with the discovery that some technical terms "Vacaspati" and "Ksetrapati" are literally found in the very first and last hymns of the whole Atharva Veda.


    What is the beginning about?

    The Tulsi Ram translation of Atharva Veda is okay, but he is like Sayana on steroids and splices his own ideas into the mantras. He must not be that greatly informed, as he was oblivious to Kaksivan. Nevertheless, let's see how he does with the first hymn, to which he is forced to attach most of the Samkhya system:



    Quote Thrice seven are the entities which bear, wear and comprise the entire world of forms in existence. May Vachaspati, omniscient lord of speech, awareness and the phenomenal world bless me with the body of knowledge pertaining to their essences, names, forms, powers, functions and relationships here and now.

    O Vachaspati, lord of phenomenal world, giver of knowledge and power, wealth and value, come and bring me a brilliant holy mind, stop not the process, and whatever I hear, let it stay with me.

    Here itself, in the process of learning and teaching, let both teacher and disciple be at the optimum tension of joyous instruction like the string at both ends of the bow. May Vachaspati lead on in the discipline. What I hear and learn, let it stay with me.

    Invoked is Vachaspati, may Vachaspati give us the call and inspiration. Let us follow and practice what we have heard and confirmed. Do not lose, do not disvalue, never revile what you have learnt.
    He says:


    The ‘thrice-seven’ of phenomenal world is to be explained: The phenomenal world is an evolution of one basic material cause, Prakrti or Nature. The efficient cause of the evolution is Vachaspati...


    Well, the mantric cause of Deva Creation.

    The implication of the verse is Visvedevas. You are directly taking their essence, Bala. The more placid version simply lacks his extras:


    Now may Vāchaspati assign to me the strength and powers of
    Those
    Who, wearing every shape and form, the triple seven, are
    wandering round.
    2Come thou again, Vāchaspati, come with divine intelligence.
    Vasoshpati, repose thou here. In me be Knowledge, yea, in me.
    3Here, even here, spread sheltering arms like the two bow-ends
    strained with cord.
    This let Vāchaspati confirm. In me be Knowledge, yea, in me.
    4Vāchaspati hath been invoked: may he invite us in reply.
    May we adhere to Sacred Lore. Never may I be reft thereof.



    but there is no "sacred lore" -- let me remember what was heard is the correct sense as in the first version -- this is like an Evam Maya Srutam mantra.

    Ram's version is easier to see in archive. The real translation is a mix of the versions. It is definitely a command, come here with divine intelligence:


    punar ehi vacas pate devena manasā saha



    The Atharva Veda Waters hymns add Amrita, Bhesaja, and Mayobhuva.

    These are short hymns. In a brief space, we have greeted Strength, Intelligence, Eternal Life, Well-being, and Happiness as deities.

    It's very elegant. You take and use Divine Intelligence like a Friendly Appliance. It's the kind that knows how to use all the deities and mantras. We see how weirdly compressed this is in the Rg Veda but it is there. It tells me that whatever is in this book, it is useless in the hands of a non-devotee. It confides the Vedic meaning of "brahman" as one's own mantras. If that is not the way you are taking this, you won't get it.

    One might suggest the "seven" are the "planets". Or cite other Vedic examples of the "trisapta".


    Are we often educated by geometry, yes. As the book-ending mirror image, the next-to-last verse uses "Ksetrapati".

    This is a Vamadeva verse on the end of a Purumilha -- Ajamilha hymn:


    Quote May the herbs and trees, all vegetation indeed, be full of honey for us. May the heavens of light, the skies and the oceans of earth and space be full of honey for us. May the farmer, master of the field, be gracious with honey for us. And let us join, serve and cooperate with the farmer as well as with nature as we should, without hurting, injuring and polluting.

    The final verse has too much added to it in this translation, and may be objected on the grounds that he invokes Brhaspati where it is not in the original Samhita. The standard ending with Vamadeva's and Medhatithi -- Medhyatithi's parts:



    Sweet be the plants for us, the heavens, the waters, and full of
    sweets for us be air's mid-region!
    May the Field's Lord for us be full of sweetness, and may we
    follow after him uninjured.

    9Asvins, that work of yours deserves our wonder, the Bull of
    firmament and earth and heaven;
    Yes, and your thousand promises in battle. Come near to all
    these men and drink beside us.


    It's Madhu, "honey", that the Ksetrapati is master of, or making harvest available in those "fields", Osadhi and Apas, and the Antariksa, and perhaps again terrestrially.

    Curiously that means Vamadeva has a Ksetrapati verse edited into an Aswins' hymn and book.


    Therefor, the last "seamless" hymn is the preceding one by Sasakarna Kanva, which is for Usas and the Aswins. Here we are given two basic ideas. First, Usas as Sunrita Devi awakens the Aswins:


    pra bodhayoṣo aśvinā pra devi sūnṛte mahi |



    she is responsible for their motion and action. And then at the end of the day, they are invited to return after they retire to the Halls of the Pitrs:


    yan nūnaṃ dhībhir aśvinā pitur yonā niṣīdathaḥ |



    And here at the very end, there is a reprise on "Ksetrapati" and then an unusual feat for a Vedic deity:


    panāyyaṃ tad aśvinā kṛtaṃ vāṃ



    He has just called the Aswins generic "panis".


    Paṇāyā (पणाया).—f.

    (-yā) Business, affair, transaction, buying and selling, &c. 2. Profits or receipts of trade. 3. A market place. 4. Gambling. 5. Praise. E. paṇ to negociate, in the causal form, ac and ṭāp affs.; or paṇa, and āya income, it also occurs mas.


    So, if they were Lords of Wealth -- Cattle and Horses -- then they must be Panis in the objective sense. Obviously it is a Vedic catch-phrase for "foes" who may be "Druhyus". But otherwise it would just be a merchant or trader, and, it may have been literally true that there were only a few you could trust.

    However the sense of the verse may be that "your work" "krtam vam" is worthy of *our* panaya "transactions and praise".

    The "work" of the Aswins is:


    vṛṣabho divo rajasaḥ pṛthivyāḥ |



    This is a quite spectacularly single mention of it.

    In this view, the atharva subject would seem to be Vacaspati as the "efficient cause" of the Honey Farmer successfully operating the Bull of Heaven.

    That would be to quote Atharvan followed by Vamadeva and Medhatithi.


    The other Vedas are the art of weaving the Rg Veda, whether by verse or by hymn. And so if it is the case there is a slightly younger collection, the Sukla Yajur Veda, it may well be for the purpose to "press the point" which may have been previously detectable or available, but not obvious. Part of what it seems to be doing is to render everything in "symbolic" terms. For instance, animals probably were "sacrificed" which may have been as normal for IVC as it was in the places with written histories. But mostly this is just a "sanctification" of the meat-eating process, that is, not a huge amount of arbitrary waste. Originally the Vedas would have simply "intercepted" this process, and then move to the teaching that this is not its actual subject. It is something like Human Sacrifice and The Year on inner and astrological levels.

    The Aswins are less-than-intuitive deities, since, they are not exactly the sun, moon, autumn, a river, or other easy reference, while most deities could be characterized fairly close to a "deified something". In Rg Veda, Aswins are shown having a Mental Chariot, part of which is The Year. It is this Chariot which is able to win them a partnership with Usas. It is something that allows the daytime appearance of beings who reside in Yama Heaven. At least, they are related. So this makes sense. Usas is simply trading places with Sister Night. Her sense has much to do with Luminosity as opposed to Tamasic Darkness, this very simple metaphor is used for death as well as the experience of a depressed individual. Of course she is also explicitly against Nightmare, i. e. fear, insanity, etc., which I suppose you could call Rajasic disturbances.

    This *is* a theological argument you can find in the Veda--in the case of a human adversary who is not "mad" but appears to be well-off and fine. He is viewed as being confined to worldly and material things and does not offer to the divine. And so the net effect, despite his demeanor, is just in a dark stoppage, the opposite of Immortality.



    Atri does a Visvedevas hymn that I have highlighted that is not quite about the "Bull of Heaven"; he possibly used "horns" as a metaphor for "flames" in speaking of Agni. He does appear to invoke heaven and earth:


    pitā mātā madhuvacāḥ suhastā


    And he adds a personification of Gna Devi, ending around an expression that the offerings are being performed by the Mithunas, the Couples. That is, Atri himself could hardly be seen as "starting" something, but, overseeing something that would appear to represent generations of unfoldment.

    Therefor his more specific connotation is Brhaddiva Urvasi. That is, a binding description on something sparse. In a difficult metaphysical sense, Urvasi is the wife of Pururavas, and the mother of Vasistha. Some of the references appear to make her a hypostasis, that is, in X.95, a combination of Usas and Saranyu:


    The maids Sujirni, Sreni, Sumne-api, Charanyu, Granthini, and Hradecaksus,-
    These like red kine have hastened forth, the bright ones, and like milch-cows have lowed in emulation.


    right before Pururavas is raised by the Gnas and Nadis:


    Sujūraṇi, Śreṇi, Sumna-āpi, Hradecakṣus, Granthinī, and the swift-moving (Ūrvaśi who arrived) they, decorated and purple-tinted, did not go first, they lowed like kine for protection.

    As soon as he was born the wives (of the gods) surrounded him, the spontaneously-flowing rivers nourished him...


    In addition to what we already discussed, Usas has a graduated meaning where Kaksivan uses "Urjani" for the form of Usas mounting the Aswins' Chariot. Sabara Kaksivata uses "Urjasvati" as Mayobhur and Vata invigorating the Cows.


    This strongly has the sound of "power of food" in its occult meanings.


    I am easily able to take it as a less-detailed, but fundamental, proposition of yoga in the "modern" Sanskrit sense. Especially with Wind taken as Life Force and what has been said about the Vatarasas. This is a "graduated" situation, because you wouldn't be "invigorating" any Cows without "discovering" them first. Here there is also the subtle "coupling" of Usas with Vayu in the domain of "urja". This is also found in the hymn we will study next:


    tāṃ vo devāḥ sumatim ūrjayantīm iṣam aśyāma vasavaḥ śasā goḥ | sā naḥ sudānur mṛḻayantī devī prati dravantī suvitāya gamyāḥ ||

    “Divine Vasus, may we obtain from the adorable cow invigorating and mind-sustaining food; may that liberal and benignant goddess, hastening (I, her), come for our felicity.”




    Again it is a Visvedevas' Hymn where we find "Brhaddiva Urvasi" from Atri. For her, the translators are not convincing about the substance of "brhaddiva". That is why we have to extract it and blend it with certain references to "Urvasi".


    From the context in Atri's V.41:


    May the divine accepter of sacrifice, of whom the Kaṇvas are the priests, Tṛta, Vāyu and Agni


    Trita: may be an epithet of Vāyu; the threefold, pervading the three regions of heaven, mid-air and earth


    Atri associates himself to the Kanvas and to Ausija (presumably Kaksivan). He has a difficult passage on Tvastr:



    You I extol, the nourishers of heroes bringing you gifts, Vastospati and Tvastar-
    Rich Dhisana accords through our obeisance-and Trees and Plants, for the swift gain of riches.


    or:

    Tvaṣṭā the lord of foundations, and the goddess of speech, bestower of opulence,


    There is one instance of Dhisana Devi as "divine work" by Vamadeva.


    The general picture is of Dhisana similar to Rodasi, and possibly as the wife of Havirdhana. Two bowls, or two soma cups, representing heaven and earth, are the feminized version of the often-dual pair as one goddess. It looks like Sayana has interpreted her as "Vak", whereas in this verse, she amplifies the well-known Vanaspati and Osadhi.

    We are then left with a masculine counterpart of "Urjani" which is:

    Urja Pati, nominally Vayu.


    To concretely manifest it, the patron of the hymn is:


    Urjavya


    According to the comment he is a Rishi. It sounds to me, at least, like it means a personal name and similar to a Danastuti. As the fusion comes together, there is verse nineteen for Cosmic Nymph:


    “May Iḷā, the mother of the herd, and Urvaśī with the rivers, be favourable to us; may the bright-shining Urvaśī (come), commanding our devotion, and investing the worshipper with light.”


    abhi na iḻā yūthasya mātā sman nadībhir urvaśī vā gṛṇātu | urvaśī vā bṛhaddivā gṛṇānābhyūrṇvānā prabhṛthasyāyoḥ ||



    Visit us while she shares Urjavya's food.



    The last bit is not a verse, it is just a single line tacked on for the donor. As to the line with "brhaddiva" we are also given:


    May Urvasi in lofty heaven accepting, as she partakes the oblation of the living,


    which seems more literal, as Prabhrta has the meaning of "offering" as it does other places in the Rg Veda. Here there is the dichotomy that Heaven would be the place of the dead. She is being pulled straight from Yama Heaven to the table.


    If we allow her to be her own hierophant, we have found:


    Brhaddiva..."mother of the gods", counterpart of Tvastr


    and as aspects of Brhaddiva Urvasi:


    Saranyu, daughter of Tvastr

    Usas, daughter of Saranyu or "of the gods"


    also finding that Vamadeva mentions urvasis in the plural, considered "apsarases" by Sayana, and ignored by the translators.


    Atri also invokes Brhaddiva in a line with Raka and Sarasvati, who are given by Grtsamada as certain lunation goddesses. Atri says:


    dámūnaso apáso yé suhástā vṛ́ṣṇaḥ pátnīr nad<í>yo vibhvataṣṭā́ḥ
    sárasvatī bṛhaddivótá rākā́ dašasyántīr varivasyantu šubhrā́ḥ


    May the House-friends, the cunning-handed Artists, may the Steer's Wives, the streams carved out by Vibhvan,
    And may the fair Ones honour and befriend us, Sarasvati, Brhaddiva, and Raka.


    It is hard for me not to take the first line as epithets of the second.

    Comparatively, the previous verse is two lines both intending Rudra.

    This also bears the sense of streams or river goddesses doubling as lunar. Sarasvati should be obvious, she is spontaneously placed in a group that all deals with the moon. But we just spent a few verses characterizing Brhaddiva as solar. This has become a crucible of hypostases.

    Raka is only known by Rishis Atri and Grtsamada.

    Atri has formed a sublime triad based from solar and riverine deities joining one who is really from her own set, which is a substantial subject in Atharva Veda, to the apparent exclusion of the two others.

    The moon goddesses are thought to convey sexuality and impregnability for women.

    Or, we might say Atri has joined River Goddess Sarasvati to solar and lunar deities.

    In that case you have "Nadis" with Solar and Lunar characteristics, which is, of course, yoga.

    If you just look at the line it would appear to deify nadis, sun, and moon.


    Just after them, Atri says:


    My newest song, thought that now springs within me, I offer to the Great, the Sure Protector,
    Who made for us this All, in fond love laying each varied form within his Daughter's bosom.

    Now, even now, may thy fair praise, O Singer, attain Idaspati who roars and thunders,
    Who, rich in clouds and waters with his lightning speeds forth bedewing both the earth and heaven.

    prá vidyútā ródasī ukṣámāṇaḥ



    the alternate translations suggest:


    ...to him, the showerer, who, for his daughter (earth), giving form to the rivers, has provided this water for our (use)...

    ...the thundering, roaring lord of Iḷā, who, impelling the clouds and distributing the rain, proceeds, illuminating the heaven and earth with lightning...


    However the unusual spelling "ilas" matches "lord of food" as used for Pusan by Bharadvaja. That doesn't really make sense in the verse above. "Uksa" is the root for "ox" which we typically find as an extra-strong Bull. And here is the sense of "the showerer" from Visvamitra:


    the showerer (of benefits) Agni; then the bright blazing son of Iḷā whose light dissipates the darkness is born of the wood of attrition.


    It is kindling or ignition, the "young", terrestrial, or "Mundane" or "Laukika" Agni, the kind manipulated by Manu, or Angiras or Atharvan. I don't see anything that says they "discovered fire", but were the first to "use for this purpose". Visvamitra also says Agni is the one:


    ...whom the daughter of Dakṣa (receives) as the parent of the world.

    Iḷā (the daughter) of Dakṣa has sustained you...



    while Pururavas is the son of Ila, both in the Anukramani, and the Samhita. He is also a Vasistha. That means he is an Ikshvaku. Vasistha's mother is Urvasi. Now we are in a circle. A weird circle. We may have to think, well, Rishi Vasistha says this of himself personally, not for "the Vasisthas of Ikshvaku". We might surmise they began in the original band of "Seven Sages", who may have been disciples of a single Atharvan, or it may mean there were seven first sages. If he was the first of the Gotra and we wonder why he got that name, it would be Pururavas Aila, Provider of Dwellings.



    Yajnawalkya calls him the preceptor of Samans.

    Prayaga is the capital of the Aila Purūravas on the north bank of the Yamunā, where the ashram of Bharadvaj is still found. Or, by the name Pratisthan, an Iron Age site (ca. 700 B. C. E.) is discovered. While under the name Jhusi, as an origin of agriculture and/or rice:

    An archeological site near the confluence of the Ganges and Yamuna rivers yielded a carbon-14 dating of 7106 BCE to 7080 for its Neolithic levels.


    We can de fairly sure they worked the Chinese rice that was eventually dispersed to IVC or west India. An Iron Age Prayaga might be named for, not by, Pururavas and Urvashi. That does not remove the possibility it had moved from some small, nameless village that hardly left any clues. Just that Yajnawalkya and Prayaga are about a thousand years after any historically-appropriate Pururavas.




    While Urvasi is somewhat elusive, Pururavas is barely found at all in any of the Vedas.


    He is merely mentioned, but in a certain context, by Hiranyastupa:


    3 To Matarisvan first thou, Agni, wast disclosed, and to Vivasvan through thy noble inward power.
    Heaven and Earth, Vasu! shook at the choosing of the Priest: the burthen thou didst bear, didst
    worship mighty Gods.

    4 Agni thou madest heaven to thunder for mankind; thou, yet more pious, for pious Pururavas.
    When thou art rapidly freed from thy parents, first eastward they bear thee round, and, after, to
    the west.

    5 Thou, Agni, art a Bull who makes our store increase, to be invoked by him who lifts the ladle up.
    Well knowing the oblation with the hallowing word, uniting all who live, thou lightenest first our
    folk


    which leads to this difficult twist:


    tvā́m agne prathamám āyúm āyáve devā́ akṛṇvan náhuṣasya višpátim
    íḷām akṛṇvan mánuṣasya šā́sanīm pitúr yát putró mámakasya jā́yate

    Thee, Agni, have the Gods made the first living One for living man, Lord of the house of Nahusa.
    Ila they made the teacher of the sons of men, what time a Son was born to the father of my race.


    It is not clear, but almost says "Ayu" as the name of a person.

    There is only one more Pururavas, in Krishna Yajurveda where it describes Brhaspati and Tvastr:



    Thou art the birthplace of Agni.

    Thou art Urvaçi, thou art Ayu, thou art Pururavas.


    They are rather plainly these three:


    urváśy asy āyúr asi purūrávās


    and this possibly also reflects in a relationship by Vamadeva of Urvasi and Ayu.


    That's what he gets. One hymn attributed to himself, and two convoluted references.

    The Devas first made Agni into Ayu, progenitor of the house of Nahusa; Ila becomes teacher of the manusas, when the son, presumably Nahusa, is born to the father, presumably Ayu. Brhaspati and Tvastr "made" Agni, and they are also Ayu. The first verse seems to intend the descent Ayu --> Nahusa, and the other at least allows for Ayu --> Pururavas, so we cannot be sure these are different, or are other than Manu.

    Ila is the instructress of Manu, or the mother of Pururavas.

    Yama discovered the Path because Ila taught it to Manu; again saying nearly the same thing.

    The only plausible distinction I can come up with is that "Manu" is a regular job, not a "Sage" in the stereotypical sense. That is the main reason I might think "different people" were involved with the founding event. Otherwise it would remain a logic trap, inscrutable from either one person with multiple aliases, or, multiple people all doing the "first ritual" together. We even find it said Agni "makes" Manu, while whoever kindles him is his "parent". A mental and physical Agni? I think it is trying to show that, with man as the pivotal focus.

    It may be for the best that the Rg Veda does not begin with a "Kings' List" or "Adam's Family Tree". It really has nothing like the assertions made in all Indian literature. It is only partially about its beginning because it takes more events to unfold its display.


    Talageri's analysis is partially useful, but, also asking the wrong questions, a bit like Protestants challenging the Catholics and not getting back to the religion of Jerusalem. Comparatively, Sri Aurobindo was asking the right questions and really pioneered what was otherwise a "dead science". However he is a bit tedious and cumbersome. The re-iterations, like generations of computer processors, are visible in this reflection on Incarnate Word:



    Quote ...sometimes it seems as if you could treat the recovery of the cows and the recovery of the sun as two different things, take one as historical and one as naturalistic and other times it doesn't work because they're both connected together and you have to choose one interpretation or the other. And that's what has given scholars to say that well this happened in the distant past and it's a creation, admit this is what happened at the beginning of the world so to speak. But then you have the problem that the rishis are asking for this same victory to be repeated in the present and so then that doesn't work either. It seems to me that every interpretation that has been tried ends up not working except for Sri Aurobindo's. That's I think what one could develop and show that he solved problems that nobody else has solved but still there is a little bit of a problem as I've talked about before that The Secret of the Veda itself was written 100 years ago and its argument at certain points is slightly dated just in the opposing arguments, the interpretations that he's refuting have been modified, not very drastically, not nearly as much as they need to be to work but still they have been modified. So it looks like he's already making an argument which is out of date and doesn't address the current state of Vedic scholarship. So one has to show how this does apply to the present state of Vedic scholarship which means that one has to do quite a bit of work to familiarize oneself with a very small field where the work is probably carried out mostly in specialized scholarly journals that aren't accessible to the general public. So these are some of the difficulties. It really should be done by a phd student actually if anybody knows anybody. Somebody that I don't know but it takes an unusual combination of abilities to do it actually. So that's what has to be done. If you got people to recognize that Sri Aurobindo was right in his interpretation of the Veda, they would still say, so well this still doesn't make any sense, it's all mystical mumbo-jumbo, they would recognize that it's mysticism, they would just apply a new word, say well after all the one interpretation that sort of fits all contexts this is a mystical interpretation which is Sri Aurobindo's and he's the only one who's put that forward. It'd be kind of nice if the scholars would do that but what would it lead to in the end? Published in some school academic journal and the world would go on and it wouldn't really.. Until people are ready for this to mean something to them.

    So now for example, we can take his Sun and Lost Cows article and summarize it as Vala.

    Using the "relative chronology" methods, we can show this is something from an early stage in the Veda with a small number of Rishis, and, despite the Vala subject being crucial in basically the way he says it, other deities, and Soma, the rite, etc., are finer details in the mesh. But if one reads his article starting to think of Vrtra as the "Coverer" in a subjective way, it starts working.

    Because we don't just link or copy Aurobindo, I didn't know he went into such depth about this, but, from individual examination, we already find something quite close to his interpretation. It is from asking similar questions. Mine were based in the study of Mantra. I did not know that was an original statement about what Veda means. At that point I am stuck, in a sense it killed my research, because suddenly there is nothing to derive or trace. Itself is already its own beginning.

    But these mantras are not like Om Kham Brahma. In fact that may be the first place I have seen "om" at the beginning of a sentence. Elsewhere it is a placeholder just like "ohhh..." in any song.

    It flips out. It really is like showing Vrtra and Vala as an incipient stage of Illumination, but then you really do have catharsis as an aspect of Varuna, and for example what seems to me a triple spiritual ailment, Blind Lame Outcast, which probably was historically represented by multiple individuals and one individual. And the River Hymn or Nadi Hymn is more likely a quest of a mystical Gomati, and so with Ayodhya and Kasi. And the Aurobindo material is sensitive to this, as to how it was historical but it is mystified at the same time. In actuality, we can be fairly certain there was a period when it was relatively common for Balochi presumably Dravidians, to plunder or pillage the Indian lowlands presumably also Dravidic, and yet we can't say how Sanskrit merged or discovered this. They don't conveniently refer to "Ochre Pottery". They use the objects and events they need to in order to express their own subjects, which, following the same line of inquiry, has to do with Vacaspati, Ksetrapati, and Dampati.


    GRETIL Sanskrit Krishna Yajurveda is in "frames" and the search does not work.


    Comparatively, this is a reasonable summary from the later Sukla Yajur Veda:

    Quote From the analysis of Yajur Veda, it is clear that this Veda (along with Sama Veda) emerged after a major portion of Rig Vedic and Atharva Vedic hymns were composed. It represents the state of society when it became sophisticated enough to conduct events lasting for several days and participated by many people as high as the king, queen and the priests of a kingdom. Yajur Vedic hymns also describe the construction of altars, the laying of bricks in various geometric forms etc. Thus it also gave great impetus to the fields of knowledge like basic mathematics, geometry and algebra as these were essential in the construction of geometric forms. Thus Yajur Veda could be the basis of ancient Indian mathematics, much like the role played by Sama Veda in the emergence of ancient Indian music and by Atharva Veda in the emergence of ancient Indian medicine.

    Many hymns of the Rig Veda, from which Yajur Veda derives most of its content were authored by sages in the family of Angirasa and Bhrigu and their branches including the Bharadwajas, Gautamas, Vasisthas and Agastyas. Many hymns of Atharva Veda which too contributed hymns to Yajur Veda were authored by the ancient Atharvan sages, believed to be the ancestors of Angirasas and Bhrigus.

    Vasistha and his grandson Parasara had contributed hymns to Rig Veda and were instrumental in the emergence of Yajur Veda along with others like Bharadwaja and Gautama.

    Yajnavalkya and his disciples popularized Sukla Yajur Veda in Mithila and Kosala. The Mithila version of Sukla Yajur Veda is known as Vajasaneyi Madhyandina. Kosala Version is known as Vajasaneyi Kanva. The name Vajasaneyi is derived from Vajasaneya, patronymic of sage Yajnavalkya.


    In northern India, Sukla Yajur Veda, that spread from Videha (Bihar) and Kosala (eastern Uttar Pradesh) is currently more predominant.

    It partially copies the verse on Urvasi, Ayu, and Pururavas, while losing the presence of Brhaspati and Tvastr and otherwise appearing as a truncated version of the previous.

    One expects the two versions are "aimed" slightly differently, the one perhaps being more mystical and the second more affable. The context of the former has to do with Vishnu's Highest Step, for which, as the "third" it is somewhat concealed, as it was difficult for instance to derive Blind Lame Outcast as a triple formula, or the simple fact that Svar Loka is considered difficult to perceive and perhaps behind the "Coverer" legends and battles. Or The Year as the third wheel of the Aswins' chariot.


    It seems to me that Sukla Yajur Veda comes as an "expedient", that is, it loads a lot of mysticism into something that will publicly interface. You get hymns that equally apply to people just running through their lives and getting married that don't pay much attention, yet still match the more elaborate complexities in other Vedas.

    In section seven, as the commander and purpose of Soma, it uses Vacaspati and Kama.

    It has "lord of speech" in another area reflecting the existence of the Weretiger, along with recognizable people such as Bhila and Kirats who in fact have this practice. This part is a massive list of types of "victims" for Human Sacrifice with Prajapati as The Year. The Vedic Yuga is easily found in this. The mantras may be late enough to reflect the entire Vedanga Jyotish.


    The Krishna Yajur Veda is given the impossible "Vyasa, son of Parasara", whose disciples compiled the Samhita. This simply has no kind of match in the Vedas. Whereas there is not much question that Yajnawalkya was separated from it by several centuries. So the evolved commentary or lineage of descent is mandatory here, even though the testimony of it is still a bit fluffy. It is at least partially subject to possibility. The Krishna Samhita, being older, therefor has more rough gaps in its provenance, and so more vulnerability to what I take as a factional claim.

    I think it is screamingly obvious the late Vedic kings are not remembered by anyone, and that all the Brahmanas resemble someone studying the Rg Veda in a linear manner, latching on to some of its most famous personalities, whereas its hymns are definitely not in such a linear order. It does contain a somewhat definable relative order. It fails to be avid about "genealogy". At no point is it anything like the prequel to Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. It is able to honor the Founders and Elders without this type of iron grip.

    It remains "open" long enough to record the presence of "iron", but not "chickens". It almost goes without saying that when you blend iron tools with this relatively easy source of food, you are going to get urbanization, there will be a population increase similar to "industrialization". No wonder from around 1,200 B. C. E. we start finding more and more structured settlements which in themselves do not bear the antiquity Indian history claims. Human beings are essentially disqualified from Rishi capabilities. You are left with the memorization of hymns passed through sectarian divisions.




    This is somewhat paradoxical, since, on the one hand, Rg Veda is so big that adding to it may be excessive, but, part of its main topic throughout is "new praise". Stopping the composition does not sound like part of the plan. There's certainly no "second coming" or "promised land", or, any future of any kind visible in its verses. Again it seems like a strange idea that anyone would have such concern for the future as to predict it, prophesy it, not in terms of distant future cycles or ages. You'd care about the short-term Agricultural predictions, i. e. peak harvest and so on, which would keep you so busy that the distant stuff would not matter. Attention doesn't drift very far from having a good life now and how to go to Heaven. It's consistent and unavoidable. Genealogy and eschatology can hardly be found. It is a Trikadruka Rite with the main practice over New Year's.



    Two worlds, as recognized in Antariksa, along with the "expanding measurements or temple", Vimana, are "current" or "direct", even if weakly translated:



    antarikṣaprāṃ rajaso vimānīm upa śikṣāmy urvaśīṃ vasiṣṭhaḥ |


    I, Vasiṣṭha, bring under subjection Ūrvaśī who fills the firmament (with lustre) and measures out the rain.



    ...her who fills air and measures out the region.



    There isn't really any "lustre" or "rain", while Siksa generally has to do with "learning", primarily as the Vedanga's branch of phonetics. So you are becoming the "Raja" of her in the Antariksa, while the "learning" and Vimana" are sublime and profound, i. e., long-term life processes, rather than simple attributes.

    The third world is a sign of success:



    These gods said to you, Aiḷa, since you are indeed subject to death, let your progeny propitiate your gods with oblations, you shall rejoice (with me) in heaven.

    svarga u tvam



    Those are fundamental statements, which are enacted in further detail by Usas and the Aswins, and corresponds to the main doctrine of Visnu, who is the real "patriarch" of Trasadasyu, who appears to be what the "Vedic saga" is about, in its objective and biographical records. The third world is less palpable and more important. This is all through Aurobindo's "Lost Cows and Dawn", which, as far as I can tell, is the right approach, but not complete or exhaustive.

    It will cause certain strands of divinization to a human being.

    Because it was performed in a society more fluent in the details than we are able to obtain by derivation, then we would say for us it is crucial to have some form of commentary which by definition must itself be non-Vedic. It is curious that Mr. Ram simply emends "Samkhya" as if it were Vedic text. It does not really use "prakriti" although it does have "father-mother" in an unusual way. A bit like multiple alchemical marriages along with a human one.



    The Rg Veda does not really have "stories" like it is not quite teaching doctrines. However, for example, in Book Five, there is a basis to associate "wind" and "life force". First here is Atri V.41:


    pra sakṣaṇo divyaḥ kaṇvahotā trito divaḥ sajoṣā vāto agniḥ |


    May the divine accepter of sacrifice, of whom the Kaṇvas are the priests, Tṛta, Vāyu and Agni, concurring in satisfaction with (the ruler of) heaven


    The "accepter of sacrifice" phrase has been put in the place of saksa, which has the meaning of witness testimony and is recognizable from later works; it is a description of "raw consciousness" as the witness to whatever happens through the body and bundle of senses -- or its dream state -- or whatever is to be witnessed, Three deities are this kind of witness.




    Similarly, in the line from V.53 Tridhatu Srngo:


    vayodhā́ḥ

    the accepter of oblations


    is further defined as:


    vayodhāḥ < vayodhas

    “fortifying.”



    Most specifically, Syavasva V.54 to Maruts:


    O Maruts, rich in water, strengtheners of life are your strong bands with harnessed steeds, that wander far.
    Trita roars out at him who aims the lightning-flash. The waters sweeping round are thundering on their way.

    vayovṛ́dho


    has just been used so vayu = life.


    Closely related are Vasusruta Apri to Usasanakta:


    vayovṛdhā

    food-bestowing



    and Dharuna Angirasa V.15:

    váyovayo


    You mature every kind of food: vāyo vayo jarase yad dadhānaḥ = yad dhāryamāno bhavasi tadā sarvam annam jarayasi, when you are being detained, then you cause all food to decay, i.e., to digest



    I think it means the Avesta is part of the relative chronology.

    We first hear of Balkh -- Bahlika in the Atharva Veda.

    In Caraka Samhita, a physician from Balkh is present at an Ayurvedic conference on life wind, saying the seat of consciousness is the heart.



    In the chronological problem, I think Kasyapa, if a follower of Marici as per Atharva Veda, was involved with establishing such a medical school.

    The Avestan subject is a bit like taking the Rg Veda and truncating Agni, and elaborating Vayu, which is Verethragna's first form, which is passed along to the Mandean Baptism in Water.


    Verethragna is a cognate of "Vrtrahan" and is possibly a substitute for "Indra". The Avesta is not as complex, but, is about like as if there was a "level one" concerning the Vrtra episode. Overall, the Yasnas appear to be a close comparison to Sukla Yajur Veda.


    Both systems, in my view, indicate Yoga, that is, a spiritual experience conveyed by life wind. The ability to discuss this intricately does not happen. The Avesta is more concise than the Rg Veda, I would say it is "shaped" or "geometrized" in a similar style. It seems to use a few of the same "devices", or idioms, or modes of speech. The similarities without being the same in detail are rather high. For example, the Avestan Soma Offering is fairly simple, but, it also builds to an important phase of Three Vessels. This seems to represent part of the objective history of Rg Veda and is used in Yoga. So this is all basically the same, in form. That constitutes a certain level of "concordance" in ritual.


    The festivals of the Kalash appear in a study on Pashto. The Kalash native deity is considered something like a "brother" of Indra. The Pashtuns were considered originally "Zoroastrian, Hindu, and Buddhist" with the language that probably is the continuation of Avestan. This makes it exactly neighbors with the "pre-Vedic Sanskrit speakers". This also shows us they must be outside anywhere the Rg Veda was "enforced", and, there is a similar cultural background to them all.

    Verethragna moves as far west as Commagene as a fusion with Herakles and a Pitr cult. Mandeans use an aspect of this for Baptism, and also cherish the Simurgh -- Syena.

    The Kurds are said to be from the same "Indo-Iranian" background Mazdayasna, which Zoroaster "refined".

    The practice is experiencing a revival due to Islam, although it is not the same as the "tradition", which is probably Sassanian anyway, the mantras are more important.

    They claim to have an Aramaic script Avesta and practiced in an underground or secluded way during Islamic oppression.

    But they are also natively Yazid, which uses the expression Enzel for the void state, or chaos, or wind in the wind, etc., but this is far more syncretic, probably more than Mandeism. Even if it may acquire a Sufi touch, it still uses the Sumerian Ogdoad or Dingir:












    It is a similar phenomenon, primarily a spoken one:

    Quote The poetic literature is composed in an advanced and archaic language where more complex terms are used, which may be difficult to understand for those who are not trained in religious knowledge. Therefore, they are accompanied by some prosaic genres of the Yazidi literature that often interpret the contents of the poems and provide explanations of their contexts in the spoken language comprehensible among the common population. The prosaic genres include Çîrok and Çîvanok (legends and myths), and Dastan and Menal Pîrs (interpretations of religious hymns).

    Kushan coinage is itself already a broad pantheon, from Avesta, Greece, and India.

    They were carved out of Afghanistan starting around 225. Until then:


    Parthamaspates of Parthia, a client of Rome and ruler of the kingdom of Osroene, is known to have traded with the Kushan Empire, goods being sent by sea and through the Indus River.


    Although this is pre-Sassanian, India is represented by Shiva, not Indra.

    Otherwise, there is the meeting of Parthian Mazadayasna with Satavahana Buddhism and the cosmogony of Hesiod.


    The region is repeatedly referred to as "the center of the world" in Parthian times, and, the Chinese consider the Kushans to have been in Badakshan. This "phenomenon", however, seems to have been the case since at least the time of Shortugai.


    Saka are "Eastern Iranian speakers" consisting of varying degrees of Sintashta or BMAC ancestry. However they mainly represent kurgan burial.


    The Chinese name "Yuezhi" may just as easily refer to those coming from the outside such as suggested by Tarim basin jade since at least 1,200 B. C. E. and:


    Both texts use the name Yuèzhī, composed of characters meaning "moon" and "clan" respectively


    They have no archeology in China. It seems most likely they slipped in as nomads, attacked the neighbors, and were driven out in a relatively brief time. From there instead they spilled through the Saka areas. This is all indistinguishable from "Eastern Iranian" which may as well be "Avestan".

    At face value, this "Iran" reached from north of the Caspian into Siberia. The map of it is just too big. It is speculated that all the languages were under this umbrella. And so I think we can see a mythically-similar, but non-Vedic and non-Avestan similarity with the kurgan burial people, some of whom also used Soma:


    Quote The Sakā haumavargā lived around the Pamir Mountains and the Ferghana Valley.

    The Sakaibiš tayaiy para Sugdam, who may have been identical with the Sakā haumavargā, lived on the north-east border of the Achaemenid Empire on the Iaxartes river

    "Apparently the Dahai represented an entity not identical with the other better known groups of the Sakai, i.e. the Sakai (Sakā) tigrakhaudā (Massagetai, roaming in Turkmenistan), and Sakai (Sakā) Haumavargā (in Transoxania and beyond the Syr Daryā)."

    Probably, since the Dahi are a better match for the Avesta.

    Although the "Kushans" *seem* to come from a "Chinese" Yuezhi, it is likely they were more Iranians who entered and left China.

    However, Buddhism was connected to the region considerably prior to them. Menander ca. 160-130 B. C. E. is massive for Greco-Buddhist fusion.

    With this, we see an "international conversation", until its "closing" by state religions and decline of commerce.


    Osroene or Edessa Aramaic Orpheus ca. 100s:


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