Being tired/wary of online discussions...

[Bill Ryan]

And a closely related topic on this thread as well:

• Social media discussion rarely changes anyone's minds.

[shaberon]

Posted by QueenRia (here)
What I think is happening is that a lot of infiltration is going on in the online truther groups.

Hi,

you have made an understatement.

Avalon is pretty clean, I think you could say everyone on here is "someone", nothing is being spoofed. And, you don't see much that really calls for moderation to start with, in fact what I see more of is "helpful utilities", i. e. a fix for something you posted that didn't work right. There's not a red hot mess like I have certainly seen on numerous other public sites.


There is still, I suppose, some amount of "fishing" you will have to do, along the lines of the remark I quoted. Now on the one hand, I tend to agree with what HopSan said about the AI--the thing itself is not "coming to get you", however, the fear of this will be glad to. The same is true, for example, in the case of One World Government, particularly as directed by the World Economic Forum.

So, there is a tendency to get overly excited about some things that shouldn't matter.

I, personally, am something of a hound for what you might call "infiltration"...I would say that almost everything that may have started with good intentions was eventually changed for the worse. Or that something false covered something that was true. Therefor, a lot of the things I have to say are hyper-critical if not combative towards certain statements and ideas. But it is without a personal anything against other members...it is entirely possible to disagree without using a single unnecessary asinine childish outburst.

To put this another way, the questionable things seen on the internet about particularly Ukraine and Israel have given a massive Confirmation Bias to the majority of what I would have said I was talking about, and, it seems to me, that "people" don't quite get it--in some cases I guess it has not come to their attention yet. This is difficult stuff, and, it may be long, slow, painful lessons yet to come.

I would be willing to say that among some of the posting members, there may be around a 70-80% consensus on what we think we know, combined with a sort of righteous indignation about it all. So there is usually some common ground as a general motivation.

[Mike]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
And a closely related topic on this thread as well:

• Social media discussion rarely changes anyone's minds.

I've always thought that a positive and maybe even revolutionary way of interacting online would involve 2 people with opposing views striving to do their absolute best to "steel man" the other person's argument..instead of continually butting heads and lobbing the same arguments and insults back and forth.

If there was ever a way of getting people to change their minds, this might be it. But at the very least, it just might get people to understand each other a little more and replace all the hostility with a semblance of respect.

Plus, superficially anyway it might be entertaining and fun. I've been ranting and raving about the same crap over and over again for years now; I'm as sure as I can be that I'm largely right about most of it, but maybe I'm missing something. I think it would be a useful exercise for everyone, mentally and emotionally.

[Gemma13]

Posted by Mike (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
And a closely related topic on this thread as well:

• Social media discussion rarely changes anyone's minds.

I've always thought that a positive and maybe even revolutionary way of interacting online would involve 2 people with opposing views striving to do their absolute best to "steel man" the other person's argument..instead of continually butting heads and lobbing the same arguments and insults back and forth.

If there was ever a way of getting people to change their minds, this might be it. But at the very least, it just might get people to understand each other a little more and replace all the hostility with a semblance of respect.

Plus, superficially anyway it might be entertaining and fun. I've been ranting and raving about the same crap over and over again for years now; I'm as sure as I can be that I'm largely right about most of it, but maybe I'm missing something. I think it would be a useful exercise for everyone, mentally and emotionally.

Geezuz Mike, you been remote viewing my brain? This is the premise for a sitcom I'm working on. 😛

Two mates set up steel-manning comps with each other on a range of topics. The idea is to demonstrate, (in a witty, entertaining fashion), how smart, ignorant, dumb, and foolish both sides are before they arrive at light bulb moments. In other words, show the public how to do it, and they might emulate it. That's one part of the project anyway.

Great minds is it then

[QueenRia]

Posted by Sue (Ayt) (here)
Welcome, QueenRia!

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
And a VERY warm welcome to our lovely community!

Thank you so much Bill and Sue! 😀🙏

Posted by HopSan (here)
A real AI is not happening, but a sophisticated bluff is happening.

That's interesting, I recently heard Clif High say something similar and wanted to know more. I'll definitely check out the thread Bill linked!

What I meant by AI in this case is bots who are so good at 'pretending to be people' that you can't tell the difference. If this is "not happening" (why wouldn't it though, is it not possible to develop a technology that can emulate a 'digital person' so it seems real? -- maybe that question will be answered on the other thread).
...so if it's not highly advanced bots, then it would be real people (or NPC, I can see how that would be a good explanation!). Then we have to account for many many many toxic people in the truther and spiritual communities, or even worse, many 'dark agents' who know what they're doing, and I have a harder time imagining so many toxic real people than imagining advanced AI-bots. 🤔

So my current theory is, that these toxic, parasitic energies that SoulValor is talking about are deliberately infused. I do not believe they are an inherent feature of online communication.
The means of HOW they are infused is the only thing I'm not sure about.

Posted by Mike (here)
I've always thought that a positive and maybe even revolutionary way of interacting online would involve 2 people with opposing views striving to do their absolute best to "steel man" the other person's argument..instead of continually butting heads and lobbing the same arguments and insults back and forth.

There's also the possibility of two or more people with open minds probing into the Unknown, coming up with different theories and perspectives, inspiring each other to think/feel/remember deeper. This could apply, for example, to discussions about the nature of reality which are my favorites. 😁
("Infiltration" in these kind of discussions is happening too in my experience.)

[Mari]

" There's also the possibility of two or more people with open minds probing into the Unknown, coming up with different theories and perspectives, inspiring each other to think/feel/remember deeper. This could apply, for example, to discussions about the nature of reality which are my favorites. 😁
("Infiltration" in these kind of discussions is happening too in my experience.) "


Welcome, QueenRia.

To add to the mix is the fact that everyone of us contributes to the 'mix' via our own unique interpretations of reality. This comes from our own perspectives - formed, not just by academia as such, but basically our 'expectations' of what we either want, think or expect the world 'should' be like. A group of people can be looking at one particular 'truth' being presented to them, but each one will de-code that 'fact' into a 'truth' that snugly fits their own version of reality. This is fine - its the way we are meant to operate and as such, goes a long way in preventing a global hive-mind, something the controllers are desperate for us to morph into, aided via the obsession with hand-held devices.

[shaberon]

Posted by Mike (here)
I've always thought that a positive and maybe even revolutionary way of interacting online would involve 2 people with opposing views striving to do their absolute best to "steel man" the other person's argument..instead of continually butting heads and lobbing the same arguments and insults back and forth.

If there was ever a way of getting people to change their minds, this might be it. But at the very least, it just might get people to understand each other a little more and replace all the hostility with a semblance of respect.

This is what I don't get.

As primarily a non-net speaker, when I tried this, I also joined one more site in addition to Avalon. I posted something there, and received a highly arrogant deluge of "I said so", which was more like a bulldozer, than it interacted with anything I said.

Civilization is built by debates, not grandstanding.

As an American, though, I have next to nothing in common with my peers. I am more a product of the Shaolin martial arts umbrella. Our discussions typically do not involve most things that westerners seem to be obsessed with. It's really, really difficult to bridge the gap. So far, I have not got the least bit of understanding what it is like to think that way. I can just tell, physically, that if I had been raised like that, I would be tremendously unhappy and confused. I sort of don't want to know.

Admittedly it has been rather difficult to compare fine points, but, at least here, I can post them without being swarmed.

[Michel Leclerc]

Thank you Bill, to point out the other link – which I had read in part earlier. The discussion is really going on there.

[SoulValor]

Hello QueenRia,
thank you for your reply in this thread and basically re-igniting it.
I guess it's an important subject after all.

What I came across in my experiences was probably mostly demonic influences/attachments/possessions. I don't rule out AI but I think that's rather a new phenomena in this area (in terms of bots or maybe people
being influenced/possessed by nano technology and AI at large. Vax anyone??). And I haven't really been active in internet communities or social media for the last 5 years or so and my activity was already in decline before that. My experience with such communities or online communication in general (the good ole messengers and chats ) goes way back til the early 2000s and even late 90s. I rode the internet wave early.

At that point of course I wasn't that aware yet of the astral energies that take hold of people and influence/steer their behaviour. But I could already gauge that something was wrong in those days. It became stronger and more apparent with the advent of social media and more and more people including juveniles having access to them via mobile phones. Thus it became VERY crowded and noisy and quantity over quality. So these parasites in whatever shape or form have been having a field day with that!

And as we know "they" have become more and more visible and active and brazen over the past 15 years or so anyway. I guess the internet and all out conectiveness that the world population has reached helps them. Maybe they were even the driving force behind that.? Fortunately, it also exposes them more. But maybe that didn't/doesn't bother them too much because many people who get confrontated with the realization of their existence and how they have penetrated our system and society become afraid or psychotic or what not. Which is again something they can feed off of...

So yeah, that's a huge bummer and "party spoiler" what social (internet) life is concerned but IMO at the end of the day it IS a good thing that more and more people become aware of the parasites/negative entities through this! So we learn to put up our guards, be more careful about what and who we spend our energy and time on, and make wiser decisions!

So what was it for you, QueenRia, that made you aware of these negative infestations, especially in online communications? It seems we have something in common here.

For me it became very obvious and "in your face" when I was engaged in forums and FB groups that dealt with magic, alchemy and witchcraft. Topics that I was extremely interested in (and still am to a degree). And even though I'm extremely grateful for everything I learned/picked up on through these communities they also made me very disillusioned. I delved into it having a positive image of witches (as in classical pagan witches of the old days, women that worked with nature and the astral world to heal/support the people and the earth) and also shamans, wizards etc - but that changed rather quickly.

Yes, there are good ones out there, engaged in the "white art" or a tolerable/understandable "grey art" but to me the majority of them, at least online, is into the black arts. People with hugely inflated egos and malevolent/mischievous intents. Engaged in energy vampirism in all kinds of forms and they're even proud about it!
And you come across people there that literally worship and conjure up demons (or satan himself) and "work" with them. Making pacts and deals with them. Either on an indiviual level or with an entire coven. It's really crazy and sad/terrifying/annoying. But at least they are open about it online (many of them but not all), even though the majority of them don't really understand what they are getting/have gotten themselves into. Especially the young people.

But as we know this stuff also goes on in high up places where they are NOT open about it (in public). And are most extreme! It's possible that the "big guys" in terms of demons or whatever are primarily working with the higher up humans and have all their minions work on the "lower" humans (which themselves then become minions), all in accordance (more or less working towards the same goals), in all kinds of areas and places. But like already mentioned, especially in the online world. Because it's really easy there for them.

People can take on all kinds of identities here, even multiple, without having to show their face. Since I had a forum on my own a few years back (on the subject matters I mentioned earlier) I had to deal with such people quite a lot - it was shocking at first and nerve wrecking. Then I got used to it which was a bad thing because often my first thoughts about new members were "hmm, could this be a fake?" Sometimes, they were indeed and often you cannot find out for sure. Of course this rubbed off on my moderators too (though they had their own similar experiences as well). Our forum even requested users to use actual photos as avatars for this reason (and for several other ones). And as we know there are some sites that request that too like Facebook (though not really) but guess what? These people just use photos from oher people then and pretend to be somebody else (or even that person in the photograph!). Sure that's illegal but these people don't care and let's face it - the police has enough things to do. So basically these "people" can hide in the shadows yet fully engage. And if they get kicked out our banned they find ways to come back. Only strong magical measures or banishments will work at that point.
But that can be exhausting too...

Of course these entities can do all this on the same level with real world/offline engagement/encounters too. But when you get to know someone let's say by chance at a supermarket and you talk to them it will become apparent much quicker if there's something wrong with the person. The way they look, speak, mimic, behave, the aura they give off! A lot of this is missing in the online world! And of course that works towards their advantage!

Granted, one can still gauge and feel if there's something strange or iffy about an online user....especially the more experienced you get. But often you also don't want to judge anyone unfairly, especially since you don't really know them and also, online things are more prone to be just misunderstandings (given the lack of the aspects above). But before you realize it or are firm in your conclusions it's often too late already and the damage is done. And the "damage" can be as little as having discussed several hours of your lifetime with this iffy - up to no good - person (rather, their attached entity/energy) and maybe a couple more hours with the admin or mods as to what to make of that person. In other words, they WILL have sucked your energy to some degree which is exactly what they came for. And you have to recuperate.

If you experience that over many years, many times, and if you gained insights like I have wth the magic/witchcraft community and also the astral realm directly (through conscious astral travels but also dreams) you just get to the point of not wanting to bother with anyone anymore. Even in the "real world". Because these infestations have grown very strong and pervasive IMO. You can see that with the rise of disorders, diseases and disabilities, and phenomena like the woke and cancel culture, splatter movies and games, bascially the overall observable degeneration of art and human society. These days, you can never be sure anymore if you're dealing with a real human being (a 100% human being!) or the true person that they really are. Put alcohol, drugs and medication into the mix and it's even worse....

Once I understood the vast scope of this (which on the upside explained a lot - Like I finally understood the cause of all this crap!) I kept pondering why this is all allowed to take place here on earth. Why is it such a "field" that the dark entities can have a field day with?? Who's granting them permission? Most humans that are infested or attached by them never actually granted them permission to do so (exceptions are those people I mentioned in the beginning - and even with those there's a catch). Not on a conscious level. But it seems that the entities don't care. They have their own rules if you can even call it that.?

So what abut checks and balances? Yes, there are also the "opposite" entities if you will - like guardians and angels. And I know that first hand too! But then you get into this whole "good vs evil" game/shtick/pattern that doesn't really seem to make much sense in the long run either. Especially since it's been going on for centuries and millenia here on this earth! So what's the point? Why is it being allowed to go on and on and on?? With always news manifestations and intricacies (like with the online world)? I'm trully disillusioned by this.....

I'm sorry that I went off of on a tangent here. I would really be interested in what conclusions others here in this forum have arrived at regarding this subject matter. How do you deal with it and what consequences have you drawn? It seems to me that I'm not the only one that has deciced to withdraw himself from society at large...which of course comes with the downside that it can emphasize the feeling of being lonely. But at least we're healthier and have "cleaner" energies that are more true to ourselves.? But why do we often have to pay heavy prices for that?

To be fair, my experiences were a lot more positive in the first few years of my engagement with the internet. There were some really cool forums and chat groups. I met some really interesting and fascinating people who became friends too (even though that didn't last). You know, back in the days when the net was innocent and much less controlled....Which is kind of paradoxical, is it not??

p.s. @ QueenRia: Herzlich Willkommen auch von mir. Du bist schuld, dass ich mich hier mal wieder eingeloggt und jetzt so viel geschrieben habe.

[Gemma13]

Posted by shaberon (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
I've always thought that a positive and maybe even revolutionary way of interacting online would involve 2 people with opposing views striving to do their absolute best to "steel man" the other person's argument..instead of continually butting heads and lobbing the same arguments and insults back and forth.

If there was ever a way of getting people to change their minds, this might be it. But at the very least, it just might get people to understand each other a little more and replace all the hostility with a semblance of respect.

This is what I don't get.

As primarily a non-net speaker, when I tried this, I also joined one more site in addition to Avalon. I posted something there, and received a highly arrogant deluge of "I said so", which was more like a bulldozer, than it interacted with anything I said.

Civilization is built by debates, not grandstanding.

As an American, though, I have next to nothing in common with my peers. I am more a product of the Shaolin martial arts umbrella. Our discussions typically do not involve most things that westerners seem to be obsessed with. It's really, really difficult to bridge the gap. So far, I have not got the least bit of understanding what it is like to think that way. I can just tell, physically, that if I had been raised like that, I would be tremendously unhappy and confused. I sort of don't want to know.

Admittedly it has been rather difficult to compare fine points, but, at least here, I can post them without being swarmed.

Ah debates, I now find them frustrating and utterly useless. An intellectual sport that sinks any objective for moral outcome and utility beneath a ton of academic, or political, arsenal; academic and political bullsh!t in layman's terms.

Astounds me that the grown-ups in this sport, the Olympic team players hashing it out in public, are blind to the seductions peddled within their esteemed buildings. None of them recognize that getting high on academic spin in a debate is antithetical to any potential progress aspired to at the outset.

No, wait, I did hear one competitor, (Peterson) offer up an admission after self-reflection. I shifted into an obsession to win the debate, he said. It was wrong, he said. Ah, yeah, because if you guys can’t see that your institutions lure you into labyrinths of endless intellectual spin, on purpose, we’re f*cked.

What message are they sending to the masses, the ground crew? Win at any cost. There is no greater cause. Trade your sanity, sell your soul, do whatever the f*ck it takes.

Criticizing isn’t enough. Never has been, and never will be. It must be followed up with practical innovation, utility, and action. I’m tired of hearing good people out there with global superpowers ask the same question, over and over again: What can we do to stop the madness in our world?

Unity within the ranks of reason is imperative, and urgent, if we want to evolve past back-and-forth egoistic posturing and criticisms to engineer common ground solutions on a global scale that do not favour the few and the mentally insane. But how?

I strongly believe commoners can help now that we have reasonable access to media. Heck, someone has to take action to de-cult some of our greatest thinkers. You know, give ‘em a good wake-up slap on the chops. Illustrate how they can and should group their superpowers – finance, morality, influence – for a common purpose like, I dunno, engineering a catalyst movement that annihilates all the “Hunger Games” movements and all the movements seducing people back to the Dark Ages.

A movement that spells out practical utility coupled with moral purpose and common sense in a sophisticated and fun way, so that the five-year-olds in the room get it. Steel manning between friendlies would be an effective tool to highlight ludicrous mind games into extinction. We’d have to remind some and educate others that common sense is a thing though.

It’s way past time our intellectual superpowers got their Spartan-300 on.

[shaberon]

Posted by Gemma13 (here)
Ah debates, I now find them frustrating and utterly useless. An intellectual sport that sinks any objective for moral outcome and utility beneath a ton of academic, or political, arsenal; academic and political bullsh!t in layman's terms.

Yes, I was talking about Civilization, not our current state of affairs.





This needs to be sorted before just anyone can be allowed to the table.

Games of word salad that fuel the status quo are of no particular interest either.

Slimy issue-dodging is the impression I get of most of that. And I suppose most of the educational curriculum is sanitized. Maybe I had a few perks. In 1983, we read 1984 and discussed it as a class, which, may have been the one time that a large group of people seemed to coherently make sense. This did not stick and I suppose it is *not* common in everyone's background. Similarly, the general panel of "think tanks" does not usually represent anything I would advocate.

On the grand scheme of things, a lot of that is past the point of words and comes down to force. And I would suggest that a lot of "think tank" argument contains the subliminal assertion of force. If it won't relent to reason, then, you remove it, or, it removes you.

Part of Mike's comment I was responding to was to defuse the hostility out of a disagreement. And so we are confronted with a paradox of having a Civilized table around which to disagree, perhaps strongly. Some level of that isn't going to just go away. I would call it a challenge to handle safely, not "Win at any cost". If we were to say no human being is excluded from the discussion, it would be with the caveat that the wrong attitude disqualifies you. Especially if you try to hide it.

I mean it literally as a living tribute to Hypatia. I would say something was broken then that is now, in the character of messing up our ability to speak to each other.

[Agape]

...take a break..

I don't mean to offend anyone. Talking and overly engaged individuals and rhetoricians are notorious and always existed.

If you wish to delve somewhat deeper to their overproductive output quite like any other output and activity it mostly does have to do something with hormonal balance and disbalance.

Some have been born that way and others become hyperactive after illness or injury 🤕.

Do your own research on the topic of ADHD.

No it does not concern only "online discussions", and from global observation view point and since we have nearly eradicated illiteracy people seem to do nothing else than talk, 90% of their waking time.

The sophistication of their discussion increases exponentially with what they judge as "succesful debate time" amounting to years n years of talking in case of some individuals making them feel more interesting about themselves and more skilled in subversive tactics of discussion.

Even among those who are "genuine" and mean "really well" in their effort to comment on others input,
being not educated in "all subjects", not trained counselors or mental health professionals the energy runs over their intents and competences easily and they do end up hurting each other's sentiments almost relentlessly.

One of the most difficult feats is to convince someone who are of that habit and verbal tangent that you actually don't want to talk.

It may or not be a personal issue ( which after all concerns them the most, exploiting others personal issues is far easier than turn it all off for some)

yet , they do react as offended and hyper reactive chemical bomb on such occassions and repeatedly

agressively attacking the point on "why you don't want to talk to them" because ...

you should

They will convince you of being :

a/too lonely
b/oh so desperate
c/so difficult to understand
d/nearly suicidial
e/quite off because whatever has happened in your life
f/deceptive for not stripping yourself off with them
g/probably somewhere else in life than you told them many years ago
h/hysterical by the sight or way they see you, desirous of "other people than them"

I/linguistically insufficient

and so forth .. for them the list never , ever ends..

in sum : completely dull because or unless you wanted to have a chat with their complex of superiority.


Most of them are not genuine students of anything after passing certain age of life,
the energy cat out of the bag , they can't be "reined in" and under control 🕹️, as middle agers and elders ,
they become oppressive to their colleagues and banned from schools and universities once they take it out on someone genuinely grown up.

It's really difficult to convince "modern humans" if one is not "interested in them" but whatever else it may be one is interested especially if not "wanting to talk about it".

They use side looks and many kinds of subtle provocations before applying sophisticated programs and cia manuals "to make you talk".


But no, there isn't any "end of the talk" anywhere near.

They are manipulative at the best and spoil lots of matter-of-fact matters and convince each other that white is black and black is white and take most of your precious time and energy away.

Most importantly though: "they had a good (or bad) discussion".


What I'm really implying here is that those people have inundated internet discussions the most and taken the precious time/space for genuine seekers of whatever truth who genuinely hoped to talk about something.

Rather than about the "art of talking" and how important it is to them to "say things right".


The most mysterious thing you ever want to say to those people is nothing.

Because they can write a book about you saying nothing .

( That in jest).

They are most perplexed by those of us who really don't want "to talk" not because we can't but because we can stop it.

Because if you can't "stop it" it means you have never brought your tongue under control and never accessed your higher intelligence centers permitting you TO THINK instead,
all critically, calmly and by yourself or even "not to think" by choice which is even more difficult feat than "not talking".

The next think they'd really want to ask...

is "what are you thinking about everyday" and give you advanced polygraph test to find out whether it's true ,

and dissect your mind so that all you better think about is them and their ways.

Just take a break, it does not hurt.

[Gemma13]

Posted by shaberon (here)

Posted by Gemma13 (here)
Ah debates, I now find them frustrating and utterly useless. An intellectual sport that sinks any objective for moral outcome and utility beneath a ton of academic, or political, arsenal; academic and political bullsh!t in layman's terms.

Yes, I was talking about Civilization, not our current state of affairs.





This needs to be sorted before just anyone can be allowed to the table.

Games of word salad that fuel the status quo are of no particular interest either.

Slimy issue-dodging is the impression I get of most of that. And I suppose most of the educational curriculum is sanitized. Maybe I had a few perks. In 1983, we read 1984 and discussed it as a class, which, may have been the one time that a large group of people seemed to coherently make sense. This did not stick and I suppose it is *not* common in everyone's background. Similarly, the general panel of "think tanks" does not usually represent anything I would advocate.

On the grand scheme of things, a lot of that is past the point of words and comes down to force. And I would suggest that a lot of "think tank" argument contains the subliminal assertion of force. If it won't relent to reason, then, you remove it, or, it removes you.

Part of Mike's comment I was responding to was to defuse the hostility out of a disagreement. And so we are confronted with a paradox of having a Civilized table around which to disagree, perhaps strongly. Some level of that isn't going to just go away. I would call it a challenge to handle safely, not "Win at any cost". If we were to say no human being is excluded from the discussion, it would be with the caveat that the wrong attitude disqualifies you. Especially if you try to hide it.

I mean it literally as a living tribute to Hypatia. I would say something was broken then that is now, in the character of messing up our ability to speak to each other.

On one hand, I agree civilized discourse is what we should strive for. I just don’t believe it’s an optimal practice in the realities we endure. Sure, it has ushered in significant change, but it's always within a confined system that ultimately preserves power in the hands of a few to gift or deny life, liberty, and comfort to the masses at will. Even our democracies are ridiculously arranged to support this dilemma, not fix it – meritocracy is an illusion, for starters.

Most people never consider there’s something dreadfully wrong with the shape of the bowl we’re swimming around in, so they can’t even begin to imagine that there might be alternative shapes to sculpt besides the worn-out trio constantly on offer: Dictatorships; Monarchies; Pseudo-Democracies aka hybrids with cloaked emperors championing communism every which way to Sunday.

And how can it be any other way when sophisticated bullies and sociopaths – grand masters at exploiting agreeableness – lean back comfortably at the tables of civilized discourse without fear of a worthy challenge with attitude? And therein lies the paradox.

Dismissing “attitude” strengthens their arsenal and they truly are genius at conjuring ways for their opponents - everyone else - to emasculate themselves. Woke fragility, with all its delusional kumbaya, is the shiny castrating blade for the 21st century. And when your nuts are being cut off it's perfectly reasonable to expect uncivilized verbal abuse to fire indiscriminately at anyone and anything before the inevitable collapse into a sea of trophy-tears. Quite the norm these days.

All we need to do is find ways to harness and redirect the attitudes of our modern-day eunuchs toward common sense and moral utility when these things can generally be found as a common denominator suffocating underneath the engineered sanctimonious hostility.

Anyway, I’m obsessed with innovative strategies to help level the playing field. Mike’s suggestion resonated with me. I like the idea of two people sparring while having to use arsenal brought to the table by their opponent. It’s clever, albeit sacrificial. And I do think using a competitive, aggressive, friendly arena has valid potential to help raise and ultimately shift awareness.

Not all personalities have the ability to call up disciplined aggression to compete, but they don’t have to. They’re observers. And sociopaths will always exploit any game in town. But as a strategy to sway a significant portion of the masses into seeing reason and motivated intelligence to disable and dismantle control systems, it could work.

We have global communication at our disposal. Surely, it’s time we muscled up and started thinking outside the box for ways to seize control of the masses out of the hands of sociopaths.

Bringing the steel manning concept into the public domain as functional social, political, and educational programs is the tricky part. Doable though with film, gaming, and reality TV genres kicking it off. And if it did come to fruition because the masses demanded it… hell yeah, let the battle royale begin.

I’ve veered off into the bigger picture because we’re always gonna be shovelling sh!t without a paddle if we don’t experiment with countermeasures to disable sociopaths reaping rewards for their deceptions. They might be fewer than the rest of us, but boy have they mastered how to conquer one and all.

We know these personalities are real and we know their strategies. So why the bloody hell are we not collectively doing something about this? Why aren’t we being informed, before the age of 20, that there are people in the world, ruthless beyond imagination, that control everything? Why are we forced to scratch our heads for years wondering why random friends, family, and work colleagues repeatedly abuse the crap out of everyone else without remorse… and get away with it? Why are we left confused, forced to abandon logic and reason when challenging rationales for why our world must fester with pus because humanity has no collective will to stop tyrants?

When our psychology departments know damn well what the problem is, why do they collectively sit on their hands instead of leading revolutionary movements of awareness, confidence, courage, strategy… strategy to… Yeah, I know, I should stop there, give myself a little slap, and answer my torment.

Without fail… sophisticated, civilized, sociopaths are always playing the long game, calculating one step ahead. Is it any wonder Social Emotional Learning (SEL) strategically and successfully infiltrated education and government institutions, homes, and workplace environments? For those unfamiliar with the terminology, SEL is woke nonsense that has inevitably morphed into insanity; when you skip past the glossy cover and read the fine print.

Sociopath Control Handbook 101, Rule Number One: Always lure, corrupt, and empower younger generations to be the next army to challenge and conquer the noble and the enlightened. Meritocracy be damned.

But yes… turning the other cheek, unplugging, taking breaks, etc are all useful strategies for self-preservation.

[Denise/Dizi]

This is my personal opinion of online burnout.

I believe the sheer volume of information available and being exchanged on the internet is overwhelming to those who are using it as their method of engaging others...

I think what we fail to realize when approaching the internet, is that we all come from varied backgrounds, economic situations, cultural beliefs and habits, and lifestyles. Some have mental conditions that do not allow for them to have "flexible reasoning" as well, and they appear to be demanding in their exchanges.. and appear unwavering in any form...

But really they're just speaking their truth, no need to try to change that, and they're unapologetic about it. But you wouldn't know that from behind a screen, oceans apart.

You will see and experience every condition the human species wrestles with online... Yet there are no labels suggesting this is what you are dealing with, so that you can have compassion or not get angry/frustrated...

When it comes to vampirism in this type of situation, one need only remind themselves, that if something doesn't feel comfortable, they can merely walk away and find other things that do bring them joy or happiness... and stop allowing their energy to be attached to those things.. It is a personal choice and something everyone should remind themselves at times.

Free Will is always available in these situations, and having that ability to exercise free will, doesn't mean we always choose to use it for some reason... We can be kind and agree to disagree, and walk away if that isn't the intention of those someone is trying to engage.

It is our individual choice to determine what they wish to accomplish online, and be the driver of our own experience...

It reminds me of the saying, "the Lion that you feed, is the one that stays alive"

[HopSan]

Thanks all, as far as it concerns my points.
I am here to get a heart-felt response, regarding areas that I understand.
I'm not disappointed, thanks!

My most active points, at the moment... Non-AI, and themes around that:

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/sho...ppening-at-all

I'll answer with my best ability.
I am not here to convince anyone -- but to show that I have reason to be convinced.

[HopSan]

Posted by Michel Leclerc (here)

Dear HopSan – enlighten me. What do you mean exactly by: “A real AI is not happening, but a sophisticated bluff is happening.”

Why would the bluff not be “scaring”? And how scaring would the real AI then be in that case?
?

As an expert of AI, you will be of course full of highly relevant thoughts. I guess I can understand that you would be able to talk about it endlessly.

Why would you not try and be concise about the most essential points justifying your assurance?

Michel,

The point of (my) points is: If (and when, and now that) there is not and cannot be, ever, 'computer-AI', by very good and strong theoretical points (and, more, not public), we should not be scared about the message of mass media.

[QueenRia]

Posted by SoulValor (here)
Herzlich Willkommen auch von mir. Du bist schuld, dass ich mich hier mal wieder eingeloggt und jetzt so viel geschrieben habe.

Danke, und sehr cool dass du zurückgekommen bist und dir die Zeit genommen hast, zu antworten!! :D

Wow, what you are describing is so interesting. It makes me realize that it is indeed much easier for negative entities to come to the forefront in online discussions.

My online experience has been different though, I didn't become aware of the negativity until I started getting into "Redpill"-territory.
My earliest memories of online contacts are from ca. 2000/2001 when I chatted a bit on ICQ and participated on a "David Letterman" online forum, which was a lot of fun and the people were super nice and interesting. The only marginally negative experience was one pedo in some chatroom or ICQ, but I immediately sussed what he was so that was a super brief contact 😂

Since then I remember only positive experiences, and quite a few led to making friends and meeting nice people in real life. In 2007 I got deep into manifesting and the evolution of consciousness, was on a forum (Abraham Hicks forum), in Facebook groups, Meetup Groups... but I experienced nothing negative like you described. The icky energies were only in real life, not online. The closest I got to your area of interest was a Tarot Forum, but it was part of a closed, paid community, so probably not too many fake people there.

Posted by SoulValor (here)
my experiences were a lot more positive in the first few years of my engagement with the internet. [...] back in the days when the net was innocent and much less controlled....Which is kind of paradoxical, is it not??

Yes indeed! The negative energies have ramped up considerably - I wasn't even aware of the censorship and control until 2021 when someone finally gave me the Red Pill.

Posted by SoulValor (here)
I rode the internet wave early.

Haha, so did I! But in the late 90s I used it mostly for research and getting my hands on English language material, and downloading music of course :D

Posted by SoulValor (here)
I delved into it having a positive image of witches [...] and also shamans, wizards etc - but that changed rather quickly.

Interesting! In the Tarot community many are into witchcraft, but I was never interested, I only ever sought the ONE, the Source - direct connection, no messing around with astral or lesser spirits. In the Tarot world I never met those with negative intent, only the good hearted ones. What I saw happening though was the woke-insanity creeping in. But it was always good-hearted people that suffered from that insanity.

I remember being on Twitter for a while and posting funny tweets, around 2018. And I noticed people bitching about how negative Twitter had become - and I couldn't relate because I just generated my own positivity there, so I never made contact with the negative energies.

It was only when I became conscious of the conspiracy-side of the world, and the dark forces and the deception that extends to the astral realm, that I started noticing negative energies online, but only in 'redpilled territory' groups and in that one forum. As if these were especially infiltrated so as to keep consciousness from expanding any further, and to keep the real conscious people apart from each other.

Posted by SoulValor (here)
you just get to the point of not wanting to bother with anyone anymore. Even in the "real world". Because these infestations have grown very strong and pervasive IMO.

I've arrived at the same point of not wanting to bother, but not because of the infestations but more because of the "NPC-ness" of the people. Even former friends and acquaintances - they are now living in a completely different world than I am, and it seems to cost me so much energy to interact with them, even online! I'm still puzzled as to why no one was able to follow me into Redpill-World. There are still some that I haven't had contact with in a few years, and I want to contact them to check where they are at in their consciousness.

Posted by SoulValor (here)
I kept pondering why this is all allowed to take place here on earth. Why is it such a "field" that the dark entities can have a field day with?? Who's granting them permission? [...] Why is it being allowed to go on and on and on?? With always news manifestations and intricacies (like with the online world)? I'm trully disillusioned by this.....

Wow, you are asking all the important questions!!
This topic would probably need its own thread, and I'm very interested in discussing this topic in general, it's one reason I came to this forum. I still need to do a little more searching here to find whether there's already dedicated threads to this.

I'll make my answer here as short as possible. 😄

So what I've found is: We live in an inverted reality. This place is not the "Real Thing". This place is a low-frequency copy of Prime Reality, specifically set up to be this way, to allow the negative energies to thrive by feeding off the suffering.
I have memories of "Prime Reality", heart-memories and also experiences of "Home"-states in dreams. And I'm not the only one, there are others who remember and are talking about this. The heart-memories and dreams I had are of a state that is not the Complete God-Oneness but a world were we are still individuals but everything feels much more REAL, like there is a deeper spiritual dimension to everthing and it's more real than the normal 3D-physical world!

But up until I got redpilled, I thought my memories are just a matter of frequency, that if I get on a high enough frequency here I'd have the depth of experience that I remember. And I thought the suffering and negativity in the world can be explained merely by ignorance. That's what is taught in the manifesting community and in the New Thought (not New Age!) writings I studied for years. Our consciousness creates physical reality and ignorance of that is the only reason the world is not as it should be.

But that's not it. I would say that everyone who still believes that has not become aware of the depths of depravity and suffering and negativity, and the deception and manipulation this world is steeped in.

Your disillusionment comes from your own heart-memories, you inherently know it shouldn't be this way, something is off.

When it all clicked into place for me was when I learned about the Gnostic idea of the "bad copy" of Prime Reality, or in more modern terms it's called "Simulacrum" or "Simulation" or "Matrix". But we have to distinguish between an "organic matrix" and the "false matrix" (Kerry K on Youtube uses these terms). If you look at the holographic universe theory, quantum physics and all that, you can still think it's all good, we are Spirit expressing ourselves in the physical, like a playground, a realm to explore and have adventures (this is what you often hear in the manifesting community, and what I believed for the longest time). A Dream that Consciousness is dreaming. Yes, that does sound fun, and I feel in my heart this is what we originally wanted, this is the reason for Prime Reality - a realm to express, explore, be individualized, create... But this place we are in is not it, it's like a copy that was distorted, and is being distorted more and more and more.
And the purpose of it is what some call a "loosh"-farm: negative consciousness feeding off of the "loosh"-energy that is produced by suffering.

I first heard about this concept in 2022 in David Icke's book The Trap, and he goes into more depth in his subsequent books "The Dream" and "The Reveal", and since then I've listened to different perspectives on this, like Kerry K, Isabella Greene, Lauda Leon, Lisa M Harrison, Howdie Mickoski... They all have their unique take on it, and some resonate more with me than others.

I have found these discoveries to be very empowering! I'm not disillusioned with all the darkness, because everything makes sense in that light. And I'm very optimistic because I believe we are taking down this false matrix from the inside and outside. Its days are numbered. That's where the "ascension" talk comes from, or the concept of the "New Earth". It's really not the New Earth, it's the REAL Earth.

The only thing I'm disillusioned by is all the people who have dropped out of my experience. And engaging with "NPCs" has become so pointless.

[Pam]

Posted by QueenRia (here)

Posted by SoulValor (here)
Herzlich Willkommen auch von mir. Du bist schuld, dass ich mich hier mal wieder eingeloggt und jetzt so viel geschrieben habe.

Danke, und sehr cool dass du zurückgekommen bist und dir die Zeit genommen hast, zu antworten!! :D

Wow, what you are describing is so interesting. It makes me realize that it is indeed much easier for negative entities to come to the forefront in online discussions.

My online experience has been different though, I didn't become aware of the negativity until I started getting into "Redpill"-territory.
My earliest memories of online contacts are from ca. 2000/2001 when I chatted a bit on ICQ and participated on a "David Letterman" online forum, which was a lot of fun and the people were super nice and interesting. The only marginally negative experience was one pedo in some chatroom or ICQ, but I immediately sussed what he was so that was a super brief contact 😂

Since then I remember only positive experiences, and quite a few led to making friends and meeting nice people in real life. In 2007 I got deep into manifesting and the evolution of consciousness, was on a forum (Abraham Hicks forum), in Facebook groups, Meetup Groups... but I experienced nothing negative like you described. The icky energies were only in real life, not online. The closest I got to your area of interest was a Tarot Forum, but it was part of a closed, paid community, so probably not too many fake people there.

Posted by SoulValor (here)
my experiences were a lot more positive in the first few years of my engagement with the internet. [...] back in the days when the net was innocent and much less controlled....Which is kind of paradoxical, is it not??

Yes indeed! The negative energies have ramped up considerably - I wasn't even aware of the censorship and control until 2021 when someone finally gave me the Red Pill.

Posted by SoulValor (here)
I rode the internet wave early.

Haha, so did I! But in the late 90s I used it mostly for research and getting my hands on English language material, and downloading music of course :D

Posted by SoulValor (here)
I delved into it having a positive image of witches [...] and also shamans, wizards etc - but that changed rather quickly.

Interesting! In the Tarot community many are into witchcraft, but I was never interested, I only ever sought the ONE, the Source - direct connection, no messing around with astral or lesser spirits. In the Tarot world I never met those with negative intent, only the good hearted ones. What I saw happening though was the woke-insanity creeping in. But it was always good-hearted people that suffered from that insanity.

I remember being on Twitter for a while and posting funny tweets, around 2018. And I noticed people bitching about how negative Twitter had become - and I couldn't relate because I just generated my own positivity there, so I never made contact with the negative energies.

It was only when I became conscious of the conspiracy-side of the world, and the dark forces and the deception that extends to the astral realm, that I started noticing negative energies online, but only in 'redpilled territory' groups and in that one forum. As if these were especially infiltrated so as to keep consciousness from expanding any further, and to keep the real conscious people apart from each other.

Posted by SoulValor (here)
you just get to the point of not wanting to bother with anyone anymore. Even in the "real world". Because these infestations have grown very strong and pervasive IMO.

I've arrived at the same point of not wanting to bother, but not because of the infestations but more because of the "NPC-ness" of the people. Even former friends and acquaintances - they are now living in a completely different world than I am, and it seems to cost me so much energy to interact with them, even online! I'm still puzzled as to why no one was able to follow me into Redpill-World. There are still some that I haven't had contact with in a few years, and I want to contact them to check where they are at in their consciousness.

Posted by SoulValor (here)
I kept pondering why this is all allowed to take place here on earth. Why is it such a "field" that the dark entities can have a field day with?? Who's granting them permission? [...] Why is it being allowed to go on and on and on?? With always news manifestations and intricacies (like with the online world)? I'm trully disillusioned by this.....

Wow, you are asking all the important questions!!
This topic would probably need its own thread, and I'm very interested in discussing this topic in general, it's one reason I came to this forum. I still need to do a little more searching here to find whether there's already dedicated threads to this.

I'll make my answer here as short as possible. 😄

So what I've found is: We live in an inverted reality. This place is not the "Real Thing". This place is a low-frequency copy of Prime Reality, specifically set up to be this way, to allow the negative energies to thrive by feeding off the suffering.
I have memories of "Prime Reality", heart-memories and also experiences of "Home"-states in dreams. And I'm not the only one, there are others who remember and are talking about this. The heart-memories and dreams I had are of a state that is not the Complete God-Oneness but a world were we are still individuals but everything feels much more REAL, like there is a deeper spiritual dimension to everthing and it's more real than the normal 3D-physical world!

But up until I got redpilled, I thought my memories are just a matter of frequency, that if I get on a high enough frequency here I'd have the depth of experience that I remember. And I thought the suffering and negativity in the world can be explained merely by ignorance. That's what is taught in the manifesting community and in the New Thought (not New Age!) writings I studied for years. Our consciousness creates physical reality and ignorance of that is the only reason the world is not as it should be.

But that's not it. I would say that everyone who still believes that has not become aware of the depths of depravity and suffering and negativity, and the deception and manipulation this world is steeped in.

Your disillusionment comes from your own heart-memories, you inherently know it shouldn't be this way, something is off.

When it all clicked into place for me was when I learned about the Gnostic idea of the "bad copy" of Prime Reality, or in more modern terms it's called "Simulacrum" or "Simulation" or "Matrix". But we have to distinguish between an "organic matrix" and the "false matrix" (Kerry K on Youtube uses these terms). If you look at the holographic universe theory, quantum physics and all that, you can still think it's all good, we are Spirit expressing ourselves in the physical, like a playground, a realm to explore and have adventures (this is what you often hear in the manifesting community, and what I believed for the longest time). A Dream that Consciousness is dreaming. Yes, that does sound fun, and I feel in my heart this is what we originally wanted, this is the reason for Prime Reality - a realm to express, explore, be individualized, create... But this place we are in is not it, it's like a copy that was distorted, and is being distorted more and more and more.
And the purpose of it is what some call a "loosh"-farm: negative consciousness feeding off of the "loosh"-energy that is produced by suffering.

I first heard about this concept in 2022 in David Icke's book The Trap, and he goes into more depth in his subsequent books "The Dream" and "The Reveal", and since then I've listened to different perspectives on this, like Kerry K, Isabella Greene, Lauda Leon, Lisa M Harrison, Howdie Mickoski... They all have their unique take on it, and some resonate more with me than others.

I have found these discoveries to be very empowering! I'm not disillusioned with all the darkness, because everything makes sense in that light. And I'm very optimistic because I believe we are taking down this false matrix from the inside and outside. Its days are numbered. That's where the "ascension" talk comes from, or the concept of the "New Earth". It's really not the New Earth, it's the REAL Earth.

The only thing I'm disillusioned by is all the people who have dropped out of my experience. And engaging with "NPCs" has become so pointless.

I found your post very exciting. I have been talking about the inversion of this realm for years. I even began calling it the predator/prey model. I even understood it as a child and I desperately wanted out. I came across the works of Robert Monroe who was the first person that I know of that began traveling this construct in OBE's and organized it into a study in the 1970's in and he actually coined the phrase "loosh". He is also responsible for binaural beats and the Monroe Institute.

I believed in the concept of loosh but not until I heard this excerpt from one of his books where he describes in detailed evolution, and I believe this is the true evolution did I see the cunning and brilliance of what they have done. I highly recommend listening to this. Basically the way I see it is that the "archons" or whoever they are are basically junkies. They are perpetually refining the quality of the loosh to give them a better high. Thus the devolution, rather than the progression one would think mankind would make.

On another note, I now believe the resets, the yugas, the ages ect. are done because they need to create stronger loosh. As is the case for every junkie, more and more is needed. That is why we are periodically devolving and this is the mother event coming down the pike. I am very excited to hear whatever you have to say.

Most people like to look at the external events happening here and now, I like to know, at least the best I can theorize the why of what is happening. The source of the issue . The senseless wars, the increasing atrocities, the self destruction, all of it to refine loosh.

My goal is to walk or crawl out of here in a state of unconditional love. I know just printing this will create a bit of ire in the realms we don't have easy access to. That is what Christ consciousness is ultimately about. Walk through this, know what it is and walk out with unconditional love. That doesn't mean being a whimp, in fact it is quite the opposite, it takes much courage. Have I succeeded , no, but that is my goal and I'll die with that as my ultimate goal.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ndoI8kD7CXM

[QueenRia]

Posted by Pam (here)
I found your post very exciting.

Likewise! I'm happy someone here is also contemplating the nature of this matrix. I need to check out more of your posts when I have time! 😀

Posted by Pam (here)
I even understood it as a child and I desperately wanted out.

That's very cool! Have you written about this elsewhere on this forum? If you feel like sharing more, I would love to know what exactly you remember, like did you remember a sort of Prime Reality and what it is like, or do you only recall sensing this here was all wrong?

(Not sure if we should move to another thread, we seem to be hijacking this one, haha.)

Posted by Pam (here)
I believed in the concept of loosh but not until I heard this excerpt from one of his books where he describes in detailed evolution, and I believe this is the true evolution did I see the cunning and brilliance of what they have done. I highly recommend listening to this.

I just watched the video, thank you! I haven't read anything by Robert Monroe yet, but seen him mentioned many times, like in David Icke's books which have been my jumping off point for deeper research into this subject.

Very interesting, this concept of "evolution"!
Some of it rings very true, other elements contradict my inner knowing somewhat, for example:
The creator of this loosh-experiment comes across as actually being creative and inventing things and concepts - I don't believe this is possible for an archon-mind. I believe what they do is copy what is already created (by consciousness that is still connected to Source/Love-Power), then corrupt, distort, invert.

The COPY-CORRUPT/DISTORT/INVERT would also explain the elements of beauty we still see reflected in nature.
Also I feel the concept of male-female was originally meant as a dynamic, beautiful dance of polarities. I have strong memories about this in my spirit/heart, that's why I'm sure this is part of Prime Earth Reality.
What distorts it is the consciousness of total separation that we have here in this matrix.

One concept in the video that I completely agree with is that lifeforms-having-to-eat-each-other-for-sustenance has been introduced for loosh production. There is lots of ugliness and suffering happening in "nature", and if you see it as a distortion of original Prime Reality, to keep the loosh flow going, it suddenly makes sense.

Posted by Pam (here)
I now believe the resets, the yugas, the ages ect. are done because they need to create stronger loosh.

Ah yes, I haven't thought about it this way before.
So far, I only looked at it from the angle that they cannot have us waking up to Who we really are, so they have to keep us down and in survival mode, always resetting and dumbing us down again, trying to suppress the Christ consciousness that keeps wanting to rise.

Posted by Pam (here)
The senseless wars, the increasing atrocities, the self destruction, all of it to refine loosh.

Exactly!
On the 3D level it serves the purpose to advance their agenda, and on the 4D level it's to harvest loosh.

Posted by Pam (here)
I know just printing this will create a bit of ire in the realms we don't have easy access to.

Indeed, I think these kind of conversations are some of the most dangerous to them. That's why I was theorizing earlier on this thread that they would try their best to supress or infiltrate these kind of conversations, to keep people from thinking too far and sussing their game.

Posted by Pam (here)
My goal is to walk or crawl out of here in a state of unconditional love.
[...] That is what Christ consciousness is ultimately about. Walk through this, know what it is and walk out with unconditional love. That doesn't mean being a whimp, in fact it is quite the opposite

Beautiful! I 100% agree with you!

[shaberon]

Posted by Gemma13 (here)
On one hand, I agree civilized discourse is what we should strive for. I just don’t believe it’s an optimal practice in the realities we endure. Sure, it has ushered in significant change, but it's always within a confined system that ultimately preserves power in the hands of a few to gift or deny life, liberty, and comfort to the masses at will. Even our democracies are ridiculously arranged to support this dilemma, not fix it – meritocracy is an illusion, for starters.

Most people never consider there’s something dreadfully wrong with the shape of the bowl we’re swimming around in, so they can’t even begin to imagine that there might be alternative shapes to sculpt besides the worn-out trio constantly on offer: Dictatorships; Monarchies; Pseudo-Democracies aka hybrids with cloaked emperors championing communism every which way to Sunday.

And how can it be any other way when sophisticated bullies and sociopaths – grand masters at exploiting agreeableness – lean back comfortably at the tables of civilized discourse without fear of a worthy challenge with attitude? And therein lies the paradox.

I think I see where you are coming from. The distastefulness of herd mentality. Again, I'm trying to point to Civilization, which we do not currently have a model of.

Now, I have noticed a slightly different subject, which I can't contend with here. There is the view that ancient monuments show us a "perfect civilization" that has been lost; and I am not sure that is what those are about.

I would say that ancient inhabited cities indicate something different than the confusion presented today.

First of all, who built that stuff? Masons.

How did that work? International beer and meat party.

"Social engineering" is built on top of that, as an attachment. To our detriment, one of the main problems in this regard is:


Writing


which seems to have given a huge bonus to those who would like to steer the course of mental development, to their own ends.

I don't think we get very far beyond a hunter-gatherer stage without "leadership"--but what this means in a natural world where people talk and work together, is of a different stripe than written words about abstract ideas that mostly affect other places.

One of the things I have tried to do is post recent examples of peace and prosperity--these have been ignored by the community. Perhaps because it ends in the nineteenth century. About all I can do since then, is show you how it screws up, usually by taking imaginative fiction and transferring it to the realm of axioms. This is what will happen if we read too much into the Bosnian Pyramid and such things that provide little evidence of anything on their own. It's extremely speculative. But for example, with the Egyptian pyramids, we have all the receipts and can tell it was built by people who were well-paid. Then it may be of interest how Egypt developed any prosperity. They certainly don't have it now.

On the other hand, I wish, that as a young person, I had been given the message you referred to--life is hard, although nature is already a challenge, other humans specialize in making it far worse. Instead, I was taught to trust and rely on "the system" and it would automatically give me a good life. I can see it is working for "a few".


I am low on time so I will have to get back to this.